[01:13] <sdquinn> Hi all.
[01:14] <LaserJock> hi
[01:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi
[01:14] <sdquinn> hi.
[01:15] <sdquinn> I used to work with the docteam a lot before Breezy, then I kind of..disappeared.
[01:20] <Madpilot> well, welcome back, then :P
[01:23] <sdquinn> Thank you. I also went through being grounded for a while, and an email hack, so..it's been interesting.
[01:46] <sdquinn> hey jerome.
[01:46] <sdquinn> it's been a while since i've seen you in these parts.
[01:47] <Madpilot> anyone around to help with a DocBook problem? Yelp is complaining, and I can't figure out why...
[01:47] <jsgotangco> sdquinn, mmmm? i'm always here, you're the one i haven't seen for quite a while :)
[01:48] <sdquinn> yeah. i know. i'm back.
[01:48] <Madpilot> I'm trying to clean up some of common-tasks.xml - just a sec while I pastebin things
[01:48] <sdquinn> after a gentoo run and being grounded.
[01:48] <sdquinn> hm, i may know the problem Madpilot 
[01:49] <Madpilot> here we go: http://pastebin.com/551979
[01:50] <sdquinn> I'll be right back, after dinner.
[01:51] <jsgotangco> :)
[03:44] <Madpilot> common-tasks.xml diff sent to the list - last of the qandaset formatting is dead & gone
[06:15] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[06:16] <theCore> hello LaserJock 
[06:18] <theCore> I'm trying to polish a little bit the `make' section
[06:21] <LaserJock> great
[06:21] <theCore> I missed something quite important to explain, how the `make' dependencies works
[06:22] <theCore> I'm thinking adding an image showing the dep tree
[06:23] <theCore> question: what is our target audience ?
[06:25] <theCore> the average linux guy or the `I know everything about Linux except how to make Debian package` type of guy ? 
[06:33] <LaserJock> I think a little in between
[06:34] <LaserJock> I think we can assume that they pretty much know how to do a ./configure && make && make install
[06:37] <theCore> so, would it be better to strip the ``Basic Skills'' section and fill it with web references to read ?
[06:56] <LaserJock> theCore: I think that quick explinations with web references would be good. We really can't explain everything.
[06:56] <LaserJock> theCore: but since the debian/rules file is basically a Makefile it is nice to have a little something about them
[06:57] <LaserJock> theCore: I gotta get to bed. just send patches when you're done and we can always take stuff out later if we want. but try to include some web references
[06:57] <theCore> ok
[06:58] <theCore> good night
[06:59] <LaserJock> cya
[07:27] <spider-man> Does anyone know what package(s) contains C++ manpages (i.e. cout, cstring, etc)?
[07:28] <theCore> spider-man, that isn't really the place to ask that, but maybe I can help
[07:29] <theCore> search apt-cache the packages ending with -doc , you may find what you are looking for
[07:39] <spider-man> theCore: I have searched (apt-cache and google), and I've installed several packages so far nothing has worked. Where is the right place to ask?
[07:40] <theCore> spider-man, #ubuntu
[07:41] <theCore> are serching for a C++ guide ?
[07:41] <theCore> searching*
[08:06] <jsgotangco> hmmm support/faq page is scary
[08:07] <jsgotangco> 25 page down keys
[08:07] <Madpilot> which page?
[08:07] <jsgotangco> its like the FAQ to end all FAQs
[08:07] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
[08:09] <Madpilot> lots of Warty or even pre-Warty info in there too
[08:12] <jsgotangco> no one reads this for sure
Nobody actually reads documentation, FAQs or the /topics of IRC channels.</cynic>
[08:14] <jsgotangco> lol
[08:16] <bur[n] er> i don't see the faq as part of the svn package?
[08:17] <Madpilot> bur[n] er: none of the regular website stuff is, AFAIK
[08:28] <CarlFK> woa... just now got my mail list subscription conf... 
[08:28] <Madpilot> CarlFK: when did you subscribe?
[08:29] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, this faq is a nice topic to start ranting again heh
[08:29] <rob> hello
[08:29] <CarlFK> Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:04:11 -0600 (CST)
[08:29] <rob> desktop guide is no workies for me
[08:29] <Madpilot> rob: current SVN?
[08:30] <jsgotangco> rob, fix it ;)
[08:30] <rob> then I am trying to mess with it on a non-ubuntu box, so it could be just the xml packages suck
[08:30] <rob> yeah
[08:30] <jsgotangco> the validation should still work though its just nwalsh and other stuff
[08:31] <Madpilot> it all works here in Breezy's Yelp
[08:31] <rob> this distro doesn't have the nwalsh stuff, I had to symlink it
[08:31] <spider-man> !list
[08:31] <rob> ?
[08:31] <jsgotangco> what are you using?
[08:31] <spider-man> sorry
[08:31] <Madpilot> spider-man: no bot on this channel
[08:31] <rob> Archlinux
[08:31] <spider-man> wrong window
[08:31] <rob> heh yep
[08:32] <rob> ubuntu-doc: not a porn bot channel
[08:32] <spider-man> heheh
[08:33] <CarlFK> Madpilot: thats when my mail server frist got it, then it virus scanned it Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:48:20 -0600 (CST) 
[08:33] <CarlFK> about 24 hours later
[08:33] <rob> everyones like "archlinux hey.. pfft whatever!"
[08:34] <rob> dapper is going back on my laptop, I sware!
[08:52] <mdke> morning
[08:53] <Madpilot> hi
[09:22] <rob> :)
[09:24] <jsgotangco> that's true though, its is more annoying
[09:25] <jsgotangco> the worse is that it is automated
[09:25] <Madpilot> is Bluefish installed by default?
[09:25] <jsgotangco> nope
[09:26] <Madpilot> OK - wanted to add it to Desktop Guide, as an alternative to NVU (which I personally can't stand...) :P
[09:31] <jsgotangco> its in universe though, so you should indicate that universe should be turned on
[09:31] <jsgotangco> but GAI can turn it on for you
[09:48] <Madpilot> bluefish seems to be in main?
[09:48] <Madpilot> ah, no it's not, my bad...
[09:51] <jsgotangco> nope
[09:51] <jsgotangco> universe
[09:52] <Madpilot> OK, edited, recreated the .diff - yet another common-tasks.xml.diff coming in a moment... 
[09:53] <jsgotangco> cool
[09:55] <Madpilot> diff dispatched - hope my commit rights arrive soon :P
[09:56] <jsgotangco> ok gimme a minute
[09:56] <jsgotangco> i serve at your pleasure
[09:56] <Madpilot> heh
[10:01] <mdke> Madpilot, good idea, bluefish is good
[10:01] <Madpilot> mdke: actually, I like Screem slightly better, but Bluefish is far more stable and overall more capable
[10:02] <mdke> for installing programs, i've just been doing "install the X package from the X repository (see <xref linkend="add-applications"/>)
[10:03] <mdke> giving the Programming (universe) &gt; bluefish is a bit tricky IMO, because we've got gnome-app-install and synaptic to deal with
[10:03] <mdke> what do you think?
[10:04] <Madpilot> yeah, that might need tweaking all over the docs, actually
[10:04] <mdke> i've basically just being doing that wherever I see it for now
[10:04] <Madpilot> the "Foo (repo-name) > app-name" thing is  an odd hybrid between Synaptic's & gai's categories
[10:05] <mdke> yeah, I don't like it myself
[10:05] <mdke> jsgotangco, i'll apply the patch if you like
[10:06] <mdke> Madpilot, how about adding yourself as a contact for the desktopguide?
[10:06] <Madpilot> sure - where?
[10:06] <mdke> DocumentationTeam/Projects
[10:07] <mdke> jsgotangco, Madpilot, patch applied
[10:08] <Madpilot> thanks
[10:08] <jsgotangco> doh
[10:08] <jsgotangco> you beat me :P
[10:09] <jsgotangco> oh well the perks of a high time barrister :)
[10:09] <Madpilot> until I get commit access, there'll be enough to go around, guys :P
[10:12] <jsgotangco> have you guys noticed that Madpilot is now a certified docbook hacker
[10:12] <Madpilot> nah, I'm still faking it
[02:23] <jsgotangco> enrico, ping?
[02:25] <enrico> hi
[02:26] <jsgotangco> enrico, i've been reading through the DCG, nice stuff
[02:26] <jsgotangco> is still work in progress?
[02:28] <enrico> jsgotangco: yes, somehow
[02:28] <enrico> I've been meditating on its scope a bit
[02:28] <enrico> an idea is to make a shortish version and add it to the developers-reference
[02:28] <jsgotangco> mmm
[02:30] <jsgotangco> its nice by itself too
[02:32] <enrico> jsgotangco: yes, I agree
[02:32] <enrico> jsgotangco: I do think it's already quite useful
[02:32] <enrico> another idea I had is to use it for NM as it is
[02:33] <jsgotangco> or an intro to the debian community itself...
[02:36] <enrico> jsgotangco: yes.  I have a talk about it planned for Debconf6, and that'll be my opportunity for devoting serious thinking to it
[02:37] <enrico> (btw, having worked at the docteam 
[02:37] <jsgotangco> i branched from it if you don't mind i'd like to follow on its progress
[02:37] <enrico> (btw, more than one idea for the DCG come from having worked here last year)
[02:37] <enrico> jsgotangco: sure!  Please feel free to send patches, change, reuse... :)
[08:59] <Burgwork> mdke, I had a thought regarding the flash stuff. Why not have a quick thing about free software and then one about shipit?
[09:05] <dsas> in launchpad, what is the difference between the "Ubuntu Documentation Project" team and the "Ubuntu Documentation Team" team?
[09:06] <dsas> the 'project', seems to have all the members in it but owns no packages, and the 'team' only has the tech board as members but owns the packages.
[09:07] <dsas> bad question: that is the difference, but I meant 'why is the difference'?
[09:10] <Burgwork> dsas, likely they need to be merged
[09:11] <dsas> should I talk to someone on #launchpad about merging them?
[09:12] <dsas> or do I need to check with someone else whether or not they do require a merge?
[09:15] <Burgwork> yes, chat with someone in #lp
[09:23] <LaserJock> are you guys watching the -devel thread on "Restoring the Help icon"?
[09:27] <Burgwork> LaserJock, of course
[09:27] <Burgwork> having not actually opened yelp in a while, are they talking abut breezy or dapper performance
[09:27] <LaserJock> so what about this gnome help is really slow stuff
[09:28] <LaserJock> well, I assume dapper but it sounds more like breezy
[09:28] <Burgwork> yes, that is why
[09:39] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[09:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, replied
[10:00] <mdke> dsas, the project is the project, and the team is the team
[10:00] <mdke> don't request a merge
[10:01] <dsas> ok, but I'm not sure I understand the distinction.
[10:03] <Burgwork> mdke, you got me confused as well
[10:04] <manicka> one outlines the project, the other outlines the people on the team
[10:04] <Burgwork> sorry, don't see the need for the distinction
[10:07] <manicka> I'm more confused by the distinction between the wiki team and the doc-team, one is a member of the other yet I'm a member of the wiki team but not the doc-team
[10:08] <LaserJock> lol, try looking at all the MOTU teams ;-) and MOTU is not motu on LP exactly
[10:10] <manicka> how does one become a member of the doc-team?
[10:10] <Burgwork> manicka, the division is to allow for the eventual goal of access control via team
[10:10] <Burgwork> so those people in the wiki team woudl have more access to the wiki
[10:10] <Burgwork> and those in the doc team commit access to a repo
[10:10] <Burgwork> obiviously people need to prove themselves at both
[10:10] <manicka> ok
[10:11] <Burgwork> the gold standard for letting people in to the doc team is a few good patches, plus agreement
[10:11] <Burgwork> the standard for the wiki team is mostly if I see if you have been constructively active
[10:12] <manicka> ok
[10:12] <manicka> back to docbook then ;)
[10:12] <Burgwork> indeed
[10:16] <mdke> argh
[10:17] <theCore> LaserJock, did you worked on the PG ?
[10:17] <Burgwork> mdke, I had a thought regarding the flash stuff. Why not have a quick thing about free software and then one about shipit?
[10:17] <LaserJock> theCore: just a little, I am changed the appendix to be an appendix ;-)
[10:18] <mdke> Burgwork, yeah I'm about to reply *g*
[10:18] <mdke> Burgwork, dsas, i confused you, sorry. my bad
[10:18] <LaserJock> theCore: but I'm still struggling with a lot of MOTU work and figuring out this mac thing
[10:18] <mdke> those teams are indeed duplicates
[10:18] <mdke> the -list one was created during the bug migration
[10:18] <mdke> a bug is filed, somewhere
[10:18] <mdke> sorry!
[10:19] <mdke> Burgwork, about flash, sounds reasonable, but difficult to animate
[10:19] <_dsas> ahh :) ok.
[10:20] <Burgwork> mdke, doesn't necessarily have to be that animated
[10:21] <theCore> LaserJock, ok then, I will continue alone ... 
[10:21] <mdke> Burgwork, i'd say, go ahead and add it, then get mark to choose his favourite 10 or whatever
[10:22] <LaserJock> theCore: what are you working on? more basic skills material?
[10:22] <theCore> LaserJock, a little bit, but I want to get on the fun part quickly
[10:23] <mdke> bbl
[10:24] <mdke> these damn devel list people are a pain
[10:24] <mdke> how dare they diss yelp
[10:25] <Burgwork> mdke, indeed ;)
[10:26] <mdke> so why does the serverguide have a packaging section? don't we have a whole guide for that?
[10:28] <Burgwork> mdke, done
[10:30] <mdke> the free thing should be first, if its used IMO
[10:30] <Burgwork> sure
[10:38] <Burgwork> http://ubuntustudio.com/ <-- cool
[10:45] <dsas> I think there was something similar started on the forums, don't know how it's doing though. 
[10:47] <dsas> For the programming section in the desktop guide should the kde/qt based tools be split out and put in the kubuntu guide?
[10:47] <mdke> i don't think so. The more the merry
[10:48] <mdke> as long as something is installable on ubuntu, it can go in
[10:53] <dsas> okie dokie.
[10:56] <dsas> Is this meant just as a list of IDEs and what not? Or should we explain how to install them? Most of them don't need explaining, but I netbeans isn't in the repos and doesn't come packaged as a deb
[11:06] <LaserJock> seems like it would get much more difficult if you have to explain how to install apps that aren't installable through synaptic, etc.
[11:12] <dsas> I think it may be worth leaving it as an exercise for the reader, after all, if they can program they should hopefully be capable of learning where to get it and how to install it.
[11:13] <LaserJock> but then we have to support that, will we have to update those instructions for each release of netbeans?
[11:17] <dsas> probably, I'm saying that it may best to leave it to the reader to decide how to get and install it.
[11:18] <dsas> To document it gives extra workload as you said, and to remove it when version 5 is out soon and has been getting hype may be a mistake.
[11:20] <LaserJock> oh, I see what your saying. I agree
[11:21] <LaserJock> I think a link to the homepage or something is probably sufficent
[11:53] <mdke> dsas, hmm?
 I think a link to the homepage or something is probably sufficent
[11:54] <dsas> Talking about netbeans.
[11:54] <mdke> ah right
[11:54] <mdke> i can't take credit for that, it came out of one of the forum threads we posted :)
[11:54] <dsas> Well, yes. Good copy and paste work then.
[11:55] <mdke> damn straight
[11:57] <mdke> dsas, if you want to bulk up the programming section, that would be great though
[11:58] <dsas> I have a couple of ideas for it, there's probably some more tools we should talk about, and maybe links to "Programming with GTK" type articles stuff. 
[11:58] <mdke> that'd be great
[11:59] <mdke> just wade in
[12:02] <dsas> mdke: Do we really need implementation details like "eric3 is written in pyqt"? Shouldn't we focus on what the app is good for, not what was used to make it?
[12:02] <LaserJock> dsas: what doc are you working on?
[12:02] <dsas> i'll try and reword some of those descriptions I think.
[12:03] <dsas> LaserJock: Looking at the desktop guides programming section.