[03:08] <mhz> jsgotangco: ping
[03:09] <jsgotangco> hi
[03:10] <mhz> available?
[03:10] <mhz> jsgotangco: ?
[03:11] <jsgotangco> sure
[03:11] <jsgotangco> what's up
[03:11] <mhz> jsgotangco: could we meet?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> aren't we doing it now?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> jheh
[03:13] <mhz> jsgotangco: so, far I have no experience on writing guides nor books. However, I do feel there are certain points to set: Audience, Deepness, Average look, Format, etc 
[03:13] <jsgotangco> did you see the wiki page?
[03:13] <mhz> at my lunch time, 13 hours ago
[03:13] <jsgotangco> i don't want to delve on setting up the whole server
[03:14] <mhz> The Edubuntu 6.04 Quick Guide
[03:14] <mhz>     *
[03:14] <mhz>       ?/IntroductionToEdubuntu
[03:14] <mhz>     *
[03:14] <mhz>       ?/GettingStartedWithTheEdubuntuDesktop
[03:14] <mhz>     *
[03:14] <mhz>       ?/TheEdubuntuApplications
[03:14] <mhz>     *
[03:14] <mhz>       ?/BeyondEdubuntuBasics
[03:15] <jsgotangco> i just want the basic desktop apps shown
[03:15] <jsgotangco> that is unique to edubuntu
[03:15] <mhz> jsgotangco: My guess is that chapters 3 and 4 will take longer
[03:15] <jsgotangco> because an ubuntu manual alrady addresses those
[03:15] <mhz> jsgotangco: agree
[03:15] <jsgotangco> 4 is just a table pointing to more complex tasks
[03:16] <jsgotangco> this thing shouldnt even go beyond 5 sections
[03:16] <mhz> JaneW: 3, how deep do you picture it?
[03:16] <mhz> sorry
[03:16] <mhz> jsgotangco: :)
[03:17] <jsgotangco> intro is the usual intro
[03:17] <mhz> jsgotangco: and 4, do you want to talk about each application or just table them ?
[03:17] <jsgotangco> and marketing stuff
[03:18] <jsgotangco> mhz, the edubuntu desktop apps is less than 15
[03:18] <jsgotangco> and those apps have their own manuals
[03:18] <mhz> jsgotangco: it depends.. Gcompris itself is about 40 apps
[03:19] <jsgotangco> i'm not planning to show everything on gcompris
[03:19] <mhz> jsgotangco: so you are happy with just a description of each app?
[03:20] <jsgotangco> pretty much
[03:20] <jsgotangco> unless you have something better
[03:20] <jsgotangco> 1) Need Math -> 2) Go here
[03:20] <jsgotangco> 1) Need English -> 2) Go here
[03:21] <mhz> jsgotangco: did you see what i listed here? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSoftwareList
[03:21] <mhz> jsgotangco: oh, I see, so you picture it divided in areas
[03:21] <mhz> thematic areas
[03:22] <mhz> or subject areas
[03:22] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:22] <jsgotangco> but i'm not a teacher, so that
[03:22] <jsgotangco> that's just a guess
[03:22] <mhz> hmmmm
[03:22] <jsgotangco> this is nice
[03:22] <mhz> what if we have them 'crossed'
[03:22] <jsgotangco> we can move this
[03:23] <mhz> #4 Could be: Need Math -> Go here...
[03:23] <mhz> Need Junior -> Go there
[03:23] <jsgotangco> i wish i had a working edubuntu now
[03:23] <mhz> jsgotangco: so maybe we can easily list all apps by 'categories'
[03:24] <mhz> by 'ages'
[03:24] <mhz> and by 'subjects/areas'
[03:25] <mhz> we use EdubuntuSoftwareList as a base DB
[03:25] <jsgotangco> im not that familiar with the age groups for the apps
[03:25] <jsgotangco> the wiki page can be massaged then moved to the distro
[03:25] <mhz> yup
[03:26] <jsgotangco> hmm
[03:26] <jsgotangco> who wrote this?
[03:26] <mhz> and if we included screenshots, a user may click on an application name, get to a mini wiki page with the shot and short description
[03:27] <jsgotangco> hmm
[03:27] <mhz> 18th versions, 17 writen by me
[03:27] <jsgotangco> would it be possible in our short time frame to make a wiki version for each app?
[03:27] <mhz> sure
[03:27] <mhz> piece of cake
[03:27] <jsgotangco> i'll proabably install 5.10 first in a machine
[03:27] <jsgotangco> then just grab screenshots
[03:28] <jsgotangco> just the desktop specific apps
[03:28] <jsgotangco> is that good?
[03:28] <mhz> good
[03:29] <mhz> jsgotangco: so, let's write a mini roadmap?
[03:29] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:29] <mhz> write = agree
[03:29] <jsgotangco> can you create a draft in the wiki?
[03:29] <jsgotangco> i
[03:29] <mhz> sure
[03:29] <jsgotangco> i'm currently doing something with a firewall
[03:29] <jsgotangco> what i'll do first is fix up my machine for 5.10
[03:29] <mhz> go ahead, let me get a coffe and get my hands on it
[03:29] <mhz> jsgotangco: heheh
[04:19] <mhz> jsgotangco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuQuickguide/RoadMap
[04:21] <jsgotangco> looks good to me
[04:21] <jsgotangco> i can finish up the screenshots
[04:21] <jsgotangco> from 5.10
[04:21] <jsgotangco> hopefully not much have changed
[04:21] <mhz_tired> jsgotangco: I have like 10 or more screenshots
[04:22] <mhz_tired> about Gcompris and some other junior apps
[04:22] <jsgotangco> tha's ok i can do some more again
[04:22] <jsgotangco> and just compare when we're done
[04:22] <mhz_tired> cool
[04:22] <jsgotangco> hopefull, we'll have enough space on the CD
[04:22] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:22] <mhz_tired> hehehe
[04:23] <mhz_tired> jsgotangco: any chances a user can be directed from Yelp to Firefox?
[04:23] <jsgotangco> then go to the internet?
[04:23] <mhz_tired> or any chances we set that 'help button' to open a firefox tab
[04:23] <mhz_tired> ?
[04:23] <mhz_tired> nope, localhost
[04:23] <jsgotangco> direct from Yelp to firefox?
[04:24] <jsgotangco> hmm
[04:24] <mhz_tired> nope, localhost/EdubuntuQuickGuide
[04:24] <jsgotangco> yelp renders html
[04:24] <jsgotangco> a like to file will open up in yelp i think
[04:24] <mhz_tired> jsgotangco: I am imagining, localhost = Welcome to Edubuntu!
[04:24] <jsgotangco> but a link to http will open up the default browser
[04:25] <mhz_tired> like DSL does it
[04:25] <mhz_tired> you run DSL and get presented with a browser with all the info you need
[04:25] <mhz_tired> to start up
[09:50] <highvoltage> hi ribbo 
[09:53] <ribbo> hi highvoltage 
[09:53] <ribbo> so, much action here?
[10:01] <jsgotangco> :D
[10:08] <highvoltage> ribbo: sometimes, yes.
[10:36] <pips1> highvoltage, hi!
[10:37] <highvoltage> hi pips1 
[10:37] <highvoltage> long time no see
[10:37] <pips1> how is it going! yes!
[10:37] <highvoltage> very busy down here, a lot of things going on, good and bad!
[10:37] <pips1> I was very busy with my day job since december...
[10:38] <pips1> I piled up a lot of overtime and now I get to compensate :-)
[10:38] <highvoltage> :)
[10:38] <pips1> Did you get the mail re edubuntu website from JaneW ?
[10:39] <highvoltage> yes, i have
[10:39] <highvoltage> mhz, hno73, etc. will work to make the moin part better
[10:39] <pips1> Well, I wanted to really get going with the website ... :-)
[10:39] <highvoltage> so that we'll eventually be able to do everything we wanted with drupal, but with moin (hopefully)
[10:40] <pips1> ah
[10:40] <highvoltage> i'm not quite sure how that will work yet, i'm a bit behind on that myseld
[10:40] <pips1> i noticed that hno73 revamped the ubuntu site to use moin now :-)
[10:40] <highvoltage> s/myseld/myself
[10:41] <highvoltage> yep, the plone site broke into a "million tiny pieces" and they couldn't get it back up again :)
[10:41] <pips1> moin/wikis are great for community contributions
[10:42] <highvoltage> yep
[10:42] <pips1> still, I thought that there will be the need for an "official" site with it's own set of needs
[10:42] <pips1> hm
[10:42] <highvoltage> seems not, hey :/
[10:42] <highvoltage> how much of your original plans will be applicable to the moin site?
[10:43] <highvoltage> can it be adjusted, and can we implement the most part of it and then find ways for the rest?
[10:43] <highvoltage> or does it depend heavily on drupals taxonimy?
[10:43] <pips1> well, I the meeting yesterday, I proposed to have a go at a drupal site (for the "official" stuff)
[10:43] <pips1> JaneW proposed that we meet on monday and decide how to go forward exactly
[10:44] <pips1> I intend to demo the drupal test site I'm currently building...
[10:44] <highvoltage> not a bad idea, i considered this too
[10:44] <pips1> then we'll vote if we need/use drupal or go moin completely...
[10:45] <highvoltage> so far, i think you'll have 3 votes for drupal
[10:45] <highvoltage> perhaps if that demo site is up, it will jump up quite drastically
[10:45] <pips1> well, we'll see ;-)
[10:45] <highvoltage> :)
[10:45] <highvoltage> gtg, talk again l8r
[10:45] <pips1> ok, if you get a spare minute, get in touch with me :-)
[10:50] <Kamping_Kaiser> i have a laptop here I'm about to install something on, but after that's done, does anyone think i should install edubuntu to test how it goes? i know ubuntu Breezy  runs perfectly, so i asume edu will work just as well
[10:57] <pips1> Kamping_Kaiser, if you install on a laptop you might want to do the "workstation" install 
[10:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> pips1: ok thanks. *checks the wiki to see what the difference is*
[10:59] <pips1> If you want to test the current (unstable) Dapper version, please report your findings in the wiki here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/CurrentEdubuntu if you can :-)
[11:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> my iso is Breezy (my ISP don't mirror Ubuntu's unstalbe isos)
[11:01] <pips1> btw, I am running unstable "flight3" on a test pc (amd64) and it's fine just now
[11:01] <pips1> oh, I see
[11:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> pips1: i have a desktop pc that someone installed edubuntu on (i have it because of flppy issues)
[11:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> *floppy
[11:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> I'm just wondering how a lappy would handle it
[11:01] <pips1> ok
[11:02] <pips1> depends on your model, I guess
[11:03] <pips1> on my ibm thinkpad it runs rather well :-)
[11:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> :) this is a compac armada
[11:12] <pips1> maybe somebody already tested your model, have a look https://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/LaptopTestingTeam
[11:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> I'm installing for interest sake, but thanks for the url
[11:13] <pips1> sure :-)
[11:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> :)
[11:14] <pips1> well, you might want to report your findings (hint hint) ;-)

[11:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> maybe :) I'm just giving livelamp the evil eye. when I'm finished doing that I'll try EdU
[11:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> http://tangram.dnsalias.net:8008/gallery/LCA06-0129/p1280213 rofl
[11:53] <ogra> JaneW, for your pleasance: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-February/006434.html
[11:53] <jsgotangco> birthday gift for ogra : http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/index.html
[11:53] <jsgotangco> it now builds
[11:54] <JaneW> ogra: YAY
[11:54] <ogra> jsgotangco, we should probably drop the moodle stuff ...
[11:54] <ogra> we wont ship it ...
[11:54] <JaneW> jsgotangco:  nice :)
[11:55] <ogra> or rewrite it to: edubuntu recommends moodle for class management ...
[11:56] <jsgotangco> dinner
[12:03] <ogra> workstation installs edubuntu-desktop on top of a normal ubuntu system ...
[12:03] <ogra> server should be renamed to "minimal" 
[12:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> so server is same as a normal ubuntu cd? (i agree about minimal)
[12:03] <ogra> and default installs (and configures) edubuntu-server and edubuntu-desktop
[12:03] <ogra> yes
[12:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok.
[12:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> *does workstation install*
[01:59] <lucasvo> what's the user password in the vmware virtual machine of ubuntu(cdimages.ubuntu.com/vmware)
[01:59] <jsgotangco> ubuntu
[02:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. Edu workstation is going nice on this laptop :O only problem so far is the modem, but I'll check that out later. :)
[02:03] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:03] <jsgotangco> i havent tested the daily build
[02:03] <jsgotangco> x86 looks sane
[02:04] <ogra> Kamping_Kaiser, dapper ? 
[02:04] <jsgotangco> i still want to sulk over gnome-xchat though
[02:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> ogra: no, Breezy
[02:04] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:04] <ogra> jsgotangco, i wont use it ...
[02:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> i cant download dapper on my connection :\
[02:04] <jsgotangco> ogra: i agree
[02:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol jsgotangco
[02:04] <ogra> me neither today :(
[02:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> probably integrated or something
[02:05] <ogra> DSL broke ... i'm on ISDN ... 64k isnt really for syncing isos ...
[02:05] <jsgotangco> im using it now but this is worse than using gaim for irc
[02:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> wow
[02:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> that's bad
[02:07] <jsgotangco> ogra: but ISDN is pretty expensive over there right?
[02:07] <ogra> yup
[02:07] <ogra> but hey ... i had to upload a new ltsp today and need to attend two meetings ..
[02:08] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:08] <jsgotangco> err kubuntu meeting?
[02:08] <jsgotangco> :D
[02:09] <ogra> lol, nope
[02:09] <ogra> development status meeting ... and a ltsp meeting adterwards 
[02:10] <ogra> *afterwards
[02:10] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:10] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[02:10] <jsgotangco> must be sudden
[02:12] <ogra> debian/ubuntu ltsp teams meet in #ltsp 18:00 UTC ...
[02:12] <ogra> its not a ubuntu meeting ... was initiated from the debian group
[02:12] <jsgotangco> heh this sucks i live in a timezone where all the action is happening at dawn
[02:12] <jsgotangco> ogra: that's nice...your work is paying off
[02:12] <ogra> lets see :)
[02:13] <ogra> they're not happy with some decisions and implementations ... its debian ...
[02:13] <jsgotangco> do you know why xchat-gnome has become default?
[02:13] <jsgotangco> ogra: why so? we're using muecow...
[02:13] <ogra> they want no autoconfiguration but do everything manually ...
[02:13] <jsgotangco> that's supposed to be ltsp-ng
[02:13] <ogra> they use our package since quite some time ...
[02:15] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[02:16] <jsgotangco> does mdz also maintain ltsp in debian?
[02:16] <ogra> mdz doesnt maintin ltsp anymore
[02:16] <ogra> thats my job
[02:17] <jsgotangco> oh!
[02:17] <ogra> he just looks over the code from time to time and complains if i did something wrong ...
[02:18] <ogra> but http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/ltsp/dapper/ is the upstream archive for muecow in debian/ubuntu currently ...
[04:05] <jsgotangco> ogra: schools need bling! schools need compiz!
[04:05] <jsgotangco> hehe
[04:05] <ogra> pfft
[04:06] <ogra> I'm SO annoyed by all the xgl stuff ...
[04:06] <ogra> spams lists and channels for no good reason ... and wont be ready within the next 10 months ...
[04:07] <ogra> xgl will be great if done though ... but it sidetracks everybody from getting dapper ready ...
[04:07] <jsgotangco> right but let me enjoy this till next week since i'll be speaking in a trade show hehehe
[04:07] <ogra> :)
[04:08] <jsgotangco> at the moment, its really just wow factor
[04:08] <jsgotangco> nothing useful
[04:08] <ogra> it will hopefully replace xorg soon ... its far better by design ... but its not even dapper+1 stuff imho...
[04:09] <vmarks> I remember when xorg was the best thing going.
[04:10] <ogra> vmarks, doing all drawing by GL will give you a lot benefit even onn old hardware ...
[04:11] <vmarks> oh yes.
[04:11] <vmarks> that's for certain.
[04:11] <vmarks> I was just reminiscing.
[04:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> ogra: problem is people wont put effort into old hardware - and theats where it's needed
[04:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> *that's 
[04:12] <ogra> Kamping_Kaiser, they will ... i'll scream and shout if edubuntu cant support old hardware ;)
[04:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> :D
[04:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> good. *knows what thin clients on old hardware are like*
[04:17] <vmarks> I find myself using old linux distributions or lighter weight window managers on old hardware.
[04:17] <ogra> not really necessary if you use ltsp ...
[04:18] <vmarks> although edubuntu seems to do remarkably well.
[04:18] <ogra> 300Mhz and &$MB are fine for thin clients
[04:18] <ogra> err 
[04:18] <ogra> 64MB
[04:18] <vmarks> well, yes. but ltsp isn't perfect: I'm still hurting on the non-pxe booting.
[04:18] <vmarks> and 300mhz is a fast machine comparatively.
[04:18] <ogra> i'll write a howto soon
[04:18] <ogra> 300Mhz is PII class ...
[04:19] <vmarks> yes it is.
[04:19] <ogra> thats already quite old :)
[04:19] <vmarks> some of us have p166 and 200mmx still.
[04:19] <vmarks> :D
[04:19] <ogra> 6 years ?
[04:19] <ogra> 200mmx should be fine as well if you have the right amount of ram. ...
[04:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> itshares boxes are only 200mhz+96mb RAM (or was 12 months ago, it's about a 300/400 average now)
[04:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> so there's lots of 200s about
[05:23] <mhz_back4hrs> ogra: hi
[05:23] <mhz_back4hrs> ogra: any ideal specs for NIC's for the Edubuntu server?
[05:23] <mhz_back4hrs> speed? brand?
[05:23] <ogra> PXE capable NICS are helpful ...
[05:24] <ogra> 100Mbit as well
[05:24] <ogra> oh, the server ...
[05:25] <jsgotangco> ive used a gigiabit NIC
[05:25] <ogra> not really ... i know people that say you should take 3com in any case, but to be honest i never saw regressions with other brands ...
[05:25] <jsgotangco> then connected to a gigabit switch
[05:25] <jsgotangco> but a 100Mbit should actually work fine
[05:25] <ogra> yeah, if you have a gbit switch its fine to use a gbit card 
[05:26] <juliux> you can also use the cards who have 4 ports
[05:26] <juliux> and than connect every client directly to the server
[05:26] <ogra> that gets quite tricky ...
[05:26] <ogra> ah, yes
[05:27] <ogra> i thought you wanted to trunk the lineks together 
[05:27] <mhz_back4hrs> so, bottom line ? :D
[05:27] <ogra> *lines
[05:27] <juliux> ogra, no 
[05:27] <jsgotangco> mhz_back4hrs: 100Mbit should work fine
[05:27] <jsgotangco> but 1GBit is recommended
[05:27] <mhz_back4hrs> jsgotangco: ideal specs?
[05:27] <mhz_back4hrs> okis
[05:27] <jsgotangco> you should be generous to your server as much as possible
[05:28] <mhz_back4hrs> processor? from 1.7 GB (AMD) ?
[05:28] <juliux> ogra, the pci bus has more than 400MBit bandwidth, and so every client has 100MBit, but you can only connect 4 clients
[05:28] <ogra> 100Mbit no specific brand at least ... ideally gbit for client and server and a T3 line to the internet ;P
[05:28] <juliux> ogra, only T3 ?
[05:28] <ogra> heh
[05:28] <jsgotangco> ived used 64bit with good results
[05:29] <ogra> nah, a direct Gbit uplink to the provider will do as well, juliux 
[05:29] <juliux> ogra, the uni has only 622Mbit
[05:29] <ogra> pfft ... lamers
[05:29] <juliux> ogra, but with a flatrate
[05:29] <ogra> heh, funny
[05:30] <juliux> ogra, cost 1,5million + tax
[05:30] <ogra> peanuts ...
[05:31] <juliux> ogra, now you know why we have de.archives.ubuntu.com and ftp.de.debian.org here
[05:31] <ogra> mhz_back4hrs, so just go with juliux recommendation and you wont run into problems :)
[05:31] <mhz_back4hrs> hehe
[05:31] <mhz_back4hrs> juliux rox!
[05:32] <ogra> yes, he always has the cheap and easy solution for you :)
[05:32] <juliux> hehe
[05:33] <juliux> but at home i also have only a normal dsl connection
[05:33] <ogra> oh, you get dsl in dresden ? 
[05:33] <ogra> i thought that wasnt possible ...
[05:33] <juliux> no in hamburg
[05:33] <ogra> oh
[05:33] <ogra> you moved ? 
[05:33] <juliux> no there are my parents
[05:34] <ogra> ah
[05:34] <juliux> and that is for me home
[05:34] <juliux> not dresden
[05:34] <juliux> and in some parts of dresden you can get dsl
[05:34] <juliux> but it is like a gamble
[05:35] <ogra> yup, thats what i heard
[05:35] <juliux> but you can get internet over wlan
[05:35] <juliux> but it is very slow
[05:35] <ogra> as for most parts of eastern germany  ... where telekom was clever enough to replace all copper lines with fiber
[05:35] <juliux> yes but you can also do dsl over fiber
[05:36] <ogra> they should offer you direct fiber access :)
[05:36] <juliux> but the telekom dont want to do this
[05:36] <juliux> hansenet do it over fiber in hamburg
[05:37] <ogra> its more expensive ... you need two more modulators ...
[05:37] <juliux> that could be but you get a normal kabel into your flat
[05:38] <juliux> so you can use normal dsl hardware
[05:38] <ogra> sure, but the provider has more costs ...
[05:38] <juliux> yes but his own cables and not the cables from the telekom
[05:38] <juliux> so you get more bandwidth
[06:07] <bob> could someone send me a working sources file for dapper? the updates are being well sketchy for me
[06:08] <ogra> how did you upgrade ? 
[06:09] <ogra> note that there is currently no clean way to upgrade the chroot, you need to rebuild it ...
[06:11] <ogra> also dont use dapper in a production environment, its far from being stable ...
[06:17] <bob> hmm ok
[06:17] <bob> i just replaces all the breezys for dappers
[06:17] <bob> *replaced
[06:17] <ogra> thats fine for the server ...
[06:18] <bob> hmm
[06:18] <ogra> after that run sudo apt-get update  
[06:18] <bob> yeah
[06:18] <ogra> to make the system aware of the change 
[06:18] <bob> its just full of missing stuff
[06:18] <ogra> sure, as i said its pretty broken based on a daily base ...
[06:19] <bob> haha ok
[06:19] <bob> how can i rebuild the chroot? i really cant work out whats going wrong any more
[06:19] <ogra> its in steady development :)
[06:19] <ogra> sudo rm -f /opt/ltsp/i386 
[06:20] <ogra> sudo ltsp-build-client
[06:20] <bob> ta!
[06:20] <bob> whats the -f flag for?
[06:20] <ogra> force
[06:20] <bob> ta
[06:20] <ogra> else it wont delete directorys 
[06:21] <bob> hmm doesnt work, shall i bung an R in too?
[06:22] <ogra> whats the error ?
[06:22] <bob> 'is a directory'
[06:23] <ogra> oh, yes -rf is better then :)
[06:23] <ogra> sorry 
[06:23] <bob> :)
[06:23] <bob> so the sources file is right with all the breezys made dapper, right?
[06:24] <ogra> yup
[06:25] <bob> cool
[06:28] <bob> i can deal with dodgyness as long sa i know its meant to be dodgy...
[06:28] <ogra> ok ...
[06:29] <ogra> but this doggyness can also mean your network interfaces dont work and change names on every boot for example ... (a current problem )
[06:29] <bob> ahhh
[06:31] <bob> well not had much luck with brezy so i figured it was worth a shot :p
[06:36] <bob> hang on
[06:36] <bob> do i have to create seperate logins for clients?
[06:37] <ogra> you cant use the same user on all clients ... (you can, but themes break for example, dapper has a fix for that, but its not commited yet)
[06:38] <bob> hmm
[06:38] <bob> wlel
[06:38] <bob> it just booted ok, but its still not liking logins
[06:40] <ogra> you rebuilt the chroot ? 
[06:40] <bob> you mean i just cant log in to more than one machine at a time, right?
[06:40] <bob> yeha
[06:40] <ogra> you can log in as many times as you want ...
[06:40] <bob> ok
[06:40] <bob> so what do you mean by i cant use the same user on all clients?
[06:40] <ogra> but not with the same user if you dont want your themes and wallpapers to break
[06:41] <bob> ahh ok, differnt screen resses and stuff?
[06:42] <ogra> nope, window frames and wallpapers on the destop etc ...
[06:42] <bob> ahh ok
[06:42] <bob> so you got any idea why logins arent working properly?
[06:42] <mezzapazza> hi all
[06:43] <mezzapazza> anyone with some knowledge on LTSP around here?
[06:43] <ogra> bob, is your /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ssh/ssh_known_hosts having the right IP of your server ?
[06:43] <ogra> bob, if not, run sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys
[06:44] <bob> yup, the only 2 ips there are the server address
[06:45] <ogra> and actually the one that the thin clients are connected to i hope ...
[06:45] <bob> nope :(
[06:45] <bob> oh
[06:45] <bob> soryr
[06:45] <bob> you mean the ip of the sever the thins are connected to?
[06:45] <ogra> bob, yes 
[06:45] <bob> yeah
[06:45] <ogra> ok, and sshd is running on the server ? 
[06:46] <bob> yeah
[06:46] <ogra> and *no* user can log in ? not even the one you created during install ? 
[06:47] <ogra> i.e. the admin user 
[06:47] <ogra> mezzapazza, on the *client* ?
[06:47] <mezzapazza> ogra yep
[06:47] <ogra> hmm, why ? 
[06:47] <bob> ogra, yup, i just get login incorrect
[06:48] <ogra> bob, where do you get that ? there is no such message in ldm (the login manager we use in ltsp)
[06:48] <mezzapazza> ogra hmmm... i want to run linux in cyber cafe, and our users are accustomed to win
[06:48] <mezzapazza> installed kubuntu-desktop metapackage
[06:48] <ogra> mezzapazza, no i mean why do you want to install it in the client ? 
[06:49] <bob> it says 'ltsp login', and i type the user and pass, and it just says 'Login incorrect'
[06:49] <bob> it says 'ltsp login' too?
[06:49] <ogra> you usually only use kernel and X on the client, the rest runs on the server 
[06:49] <mezzapazza> ogra ah... i didn't installed... just built it..
[06:49] <ogra> bob, do you have a gui at all on the client ? 
[06:49] <mezzapazza> but i can't make client run KDE
[06:50] <bob> nope
[06:50] <mezzapazza> even .xinitrc doesn't help :(
[06:50] <ogra> mezzapazza, if you use the ubuntu ltsp implementation, all desktop tasks run on the server ...
[06:51] <ogra> mezzapazza,  sudo update-alternatives --config x-session-manager
[06:51] <ogra> will give you the option to select the system default 
[06:51] <ogra> (which ldm will use then)
[06:52] <ogra> bob, your thin client setup is broken ... you should have a gui login
[06:52] <bob> ok
[06:52] <bob> any ideas?
[06:52] <bob> could it just be a shit video card?
[06:52] <ogra> bob, wipe the chroot as i told you above and rebuild the ltsp-client ...
[06:53] <ogra> sorry, i'm in a meeting in #ltsp now
[06:53] <bob> i did...
[06:53] <bob> hmm
[06:53] <bob> ok
[06:54] <bob> thanks for your help btw...
[06:54] <mezzapazza> There is only 1 program which provides x-session-manager
[06:54] <mezzapazza> (/usr/bin/gnome-session). Nothing to configure.
[06:54] <mezzapazza> although i have KDM installed
[06:54] <ogra> hmm, are you sure you installed kubuntu-desktop on the server ?
[06:55] <mezzapazza> no, this is what i did:
[06:55] <mezzapazza> ltsp-build-client  --root /var/ltsp/amd64/  --dist breezy --mirror http://hr.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu --late-packages kubuntu-desktop 
[06:56] <ogra> hmm, and your clients boot ?
[06:56] <mezzapazza> yes
[06:57] <ogra> late packages is reserved for the kernel package ...
[06:57] <mezzapazza> hmm
[06:57] <mezzapazza> it boots just fine untill i try to login in X
[06:59] <bob> ogra, would i help if i rebuilt the client with --dist breezy as well?
[07:00] <mezzapazza> well, installing kubuntu-desktop on the server now, will keep asking questions in a few hours
[07:00] <mezzapazza> tnx for help ogra!
[07:06] <ogra> i'll be available after the meeting ...
[07:07] <bob> thats cool, no hurry :)
[07:50] <C-O-L-T> hy there
[07:50] <C-O-L-T> anybody there?
[09:27] <mhz> ogra: ebuntu?
[09:28] <ogra> mhz, yes :( very bad name choice
[09:28] <ogra> but what should we do about that ? 
[09:31] <mhz> kill'em all!
[09:31] <ogra> heh+
[09:32] <mhz> well, all 17 y.o. girls :D
[09:32] <ogra> me hates e17
[09:32] <juliux> /me loves gnome
[09:33] <juliux> and since yesterday it is very fast here
[09:36] <ogra> e17 is clearly not among these
[09:36] <ogra> as their devs declare
[09:36] <mhz> ohhh
[09:37] <ogra> there are some statements from rasterman ... "we give a shit on freedesktop ... etc"
[09:37] <mhz> ogra: last week I had the chance to read 'xfce developers' do not use freedesktop standards regarding icons naming
[09:37] <mhz> and did not want to
[09:38] <mhz> fortunately, Daniele Favara, aka nomed in dsslive project, convinced them to follow the standards
[09:38] <ogra> but they stick to most other standards from freedesktop ...
[09:38] <ogra> disagreement is fine ... but refusing collaboration as a whole and reinvent the wheel (even if its shiny) is bad
[09:39] <mhz> ogra: oh, then I agree with you again! :(
[10:00] <signifer123> so is edubuntu switching to another desktop?
[10:00] <ogra> nope
[10:00] <signifer123> :-p
[10:00] <signifer123> good...
[10:09] <bob> hey ogra, you have any thgouhts on why my clients arent booting? shall i rebuild the ltsp client again with some different options?
[10:12] <mhz> bob: not booting? or not logging in?
[10:13] <ogra> bob, what hardware specs have these clients ? 
[10:14] <ogra> i suspect you have to less mem to start an X server or a weird graphics card ...
[10:15] <ogra> mhz, the x server doesnt start
[10:17] <mhz> ogra: ok, so they boot, the server has X running BUt the clients ?
[10:18] <ogra> yes, the clients only start in console mode  
[10:18] <ogra> i guess they are not >64MB or have a graphics card we dont know about (i suspect the first)
[10:19] <mhz> yah, me too
[10:19] <ogra> (since i cant imagine a unsupported graphics card for our xorg server)
[10:19] <mhz> hehhe
[10:19] <mhz> unles it is from other planet
[10:19] <mhz> are the clients x86 or ppc?
[10:20] <mhz> or arm?
[10:20] <ogra> no idea, but i suspect x86
[10:20] <ogra> bob ?
[10:20] <mhz> maybe he uses xfce and the mouse ate his tongue
[10:21] <mhz> ;p
[10:21] <ogra> thats a xfce feature ? 
[10:21] <mhz> lol
[10:21] <mhz> ogra: yes, silent mode
[10:22] <mhz> ohhh, silent fingers
[10:22] <bob> whoops., worry
[10:22] <bob> sorry
[10:23] <bob> i dont really know the hardware specs. what was the command again, lspci?
[10:23] <ogra> free 
[10:23] <bob> pretty rubbish i reckon
[10:23] <ogra> to get the amount of memory 
[10:23] <ogra> cat /proc/cpuinfo
[10:23] <bob> k ill just boot it
[10:23] <ogra> to get CPU stats
[10:24] <ogra> you need to set a root password in the chroot to be able to log in 
[10:24] <ogra> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 passwd
[10:24] <bob> k
[10:24] <mhz> oooh, chrooting
[10:25] <ogra> use root and this password to log in on the client
[10:25] <ogra> (note the first password thats requested is for sudo ... the second one is for the chroot)
[10:25] <bob> oih hang on somehting odd is happening, gonan reboot.
[10:35] <bob> hmm that passwd command just gives an error
[10:35] <bob> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 passwd
[10:35] <ogra> yes 
[10:35] <ogra> it first asks for your user password ...
[10:35] <ogra> then offers you to set a root password in the chroot 
[10:35] <bob> yeah it just says no such command
[10:36] <bob> 'canot run comamnd 'passwd': no such file or directory
[10:36] <ogra> can you give the exact errormessage ? 
[10:37] <bob> ahh hang on, i might have tried to reinstall the client again earlier and it messed up, i thgouht it hadnt done anything, but...
[10:37] <bob> ill rebuild again
[10:37] <bob> shall i use any parameters for the rebuild?
[10:39] <ogra> hmm, be really carfull... if you broek it during build it might mees up the server
[10:39] <ogra> you dont need parameters ...
[10:39] <bob> ok
[10:39] <bob> what was the command again?
[10:40] <ogra> but if /proc is mounted inside the chroot it will break your server ... if you cant unmount /proc there you cant fix it ...
[10:40] <ogra> and if there is no shell in the chroot, you cant chroot to unmount /proc there ... its a chicken egg problem
[10:40] <bob> i think i tried to delete it when it was still kind of doing something, and there was still 2 files tied up
[10:41] <ogra> ouch
[10:41] <bob> problem?
[10:41] <bob> you think i just need a reinstall?
[10:41] <ogra> thats likely a problem that i cant solve ...
[10:41] <bob> hmm
[10:41] <bob> anything thats wortha  try?
[10:42] <ogra> if its meesed up anyway you will need to reinstall ... but in that case it wont break more if you try rebuilding the chroot :)
[10:42] <ogra> sudo ltsp-build-client 
[10:43] <ogra> no options 
[10:43] <ogra> and wipe /opt/ltsp/i386 first
[10:43] <bob> k
[10:43] <ogra> s/wipe/remove/
[10:43] <bob> ahh its already going, i did rm -fr /opt/ltsp/i386 thoguh?
[10:44] <bob> it sounds like its probably the graphics card thats the issue though
[10:45] <ogra> unlikely  ... i cant imagine a graphics card our xserver doesnt know ....
[10:45] <ogra> i rather suspect the clients have less than 64MB ...
[10:46] <bob> ram? ok
[10:46] <ogra> yes, ram
[10:46] <bob> is that the minimum?
[10:48] <ogra> yes 
[10:49] <bob> k
[10:49] <bob> itd be sueful to ahve all the absolute min specs on the wiki :)
[10:49] <bob> unless they already are 
[10:49] <ogra> they arent and i cant really tell them for breezy ...
[10:50] <bob> ah ok
[10:50] <ogra> i'll release them for dapper since there i did measuring ...
[10:50] <bob> cool :)
[10:50] <ogra> but dapper will for example support network swap, so the ram can be less ...
[10:50] <ogra> (thats the feature i'm currently working on)
[10:51] <bob> wow
[10:51] <bob> what is your general ubuntu type job then? :)
[10:51] <ogra> hacking on ltsp, caring for the screensaver and maintaining edubuntu 
[10:51] <bob> cool
[10:52] <bob> ok its done, shall i try that passwd thing again?
[10:52] <ogra> additionally with some standard ubuntu stuff like random bugfixing etc 
[10:52] <ogra> its done ??
[10:52] <bob> ah good stuff. how many people are there working on it?
[10:52] <ogra> you must have a fast connection then ....
[10:52] <bob> 8meg on a good day...
[10:52] <ogra> about 10 full employed for the whole distro ...
[10:53] <ogra> one is completely working on kubuntu as i am on edubuntu 
[10:53] <ogra> so that leaves 8 for ubuntu :)
[10:53] <bob> how do you get funding? can you aplpy for grants and stuff?
[10:54] <ogra> i'm paied by canonical Ltd
[10:54] <bob> ok the password has set ok...
[10:54] <ogra> ok, now find out how much ram you have ...
[10:54] <ogra> use the "free" command after login 
[10:55] <bob> ah ok, cool, free software is amasing and the fact people can get paid to do it rules...
[10:56] <bob> 123meg it says
[10:56] <ogra> thats plenaty 
[10:56] <ogra> *plenty
[10:57] <ogra> cat /proc/cpuinfo 
[10:57] <ogra> lets see what kind of cpu you have 
[10:57] <bob> amd-k6 3d processor
[10:57] <bob> 501mhz
[10:58] <ogra> wow, thats a good thin client 
[10:58] <ogra> ok, now lspci and look for the VGA device
[10:58] <bob> its one of the better boxes
[10:58] <bob> ati mach 64
[10:58] <bob> gx
[10:59] <ogra> hmm ...
[10:59] <ogra> that should be detected 
[10:59] <bob> it comes up with the proper boot loader now and it didnt before
[10:59] <ogra> gui ?
[10:59] <bob> nah
[11:00] <ogra> less /etc/X11/xorg.conf and look for the Driver section 
[11:00] <ogra> there should be ati or radeon in it 
[11:01] <bob> hmm theres a device section but no driver section?
[11:01] <bob> and a section called DRI
[11:05] <ogra> ah, sorry 
[11:05] <ogra> i meant Driver
[11:05] <ogra> Section "Device"
[11:05] <ogra>         Identifier      "ATI Technologies, Inc. M11 NV [FireGL Mobility T2e] "
[11:05] <ogra>         Driver          "ati"
[11:05] <ogra>         BusID           "PCI:0:16:0"
[11:05] <ogra>         Option          "UseFBDev"              "true"
[11:05] <ogra> EndSection
[11:05] <ogra> something like that ...
[11:06] <bob> yup
[11:06] <bob> got it
[11:06] <ogra> what does it say ?
[11:06] <ogra> (the driver line)
[11:07] <bob> driver, "ati", busid "pci:0:9:0" 
[11:07] <ogra> sounds ok
[11:07] <ogra> hmm ...
[11:07] <ogra> try running startx and see if there is an error 
[11:08] <bob> just at the fatal server error: no screens found...
[11:08] <bob> whoops
[11:08] <bob> ignore the just at the
[11:08] <ogra> hmm 
[11:08] <bob> you want the rest?
[11:08] <ogra> nope 
[11:08] <ogra> thats evil enough :)
[11:08] <bob> something about an error unlocking an authority file too
[11:09] <ogra> what kind of monitors do the clients have ? 
[11:09] <bob> umm
[11:09] <bob> quite old
[11:09] <bob> shall i try a differnt monitor?
[11:09] <ogra> yup
[11:09] <bob> k
[11:09] <ogra> i need to change from isdn to dsl, brb
[11:11] <bob> k
[11:17] <bob> wow this is special
[11:17] <bob> i changed the moniutor
[11:17] <bob> ran xserver, and it seemed to freeze up
[11:17] <bob> so i rebooted and now im geting 'kernel panic - not syncing'
[11:18] <ogra> try another boot ...
[11:18] <ogra> that looks like a network issue 
[11:19] <bob> k
[11:19] <bob> there is a rogue dhcp server i cant turn off
[11:20] <ogra> ouch
[11:20] <ogra> thats a problem 
[11:20] <bob> rubbish router control panel
[11:20] <bob> ah gottit this time
[11:20] <bob> normally the srever wins the dhcp race... wow geek olympics/
[11:25] <bob> hmm it keeps doing it, its well eird this has just started
[11:27] <ogra> its intresting that you could boot at all 
[11:27] <ogra> normally it breaks heavily with a second dhcp server
[11:28] <bob> you think that is most likely my problem?
[11:28] <ogra> with booting, yes 
[11:28] <bob> (or one of the many)
[11:28] <ogra> not the one with the X server 
[11:28] <bob> its really not liking it al all now
[11:28] <bob> hmm
[11:29] <bob> is there any way i can set the clients to only accept dhcp off the server or anything?
[11:29] <ogra> nope
[11:29] <ogra> you cant predict which dhcp server answers first ...
[11:30] <ogra> and you can force it only with a highly complicated setup if you run one of them on a different port ...
[11:30] <bob> arg
[11:30] <ogra> but that would take the whole night to get running 
[11:30] <bob> haha
[11:30] <bob> hmm
[11:30] <bob> what a pain
[11:30] <bob> ok ill disconenct t'internet temporarly
[11:30] <bob> brb
[11:35] <bob> something fishy is going on
[11:37] <bob> crc error: ssytem halted?
[11:37] <ogra> huh ?
[11:37] <bob> on boot
[11:37] <bob> something really really odd is going on with this router
[11:38] <bob> arg, sorry about this
[11:38] <bob> its so weird its only just started being an issue
[11:39] <bob> crc error: system halted, this is probably still a network problem yes?
[11:40] <ogra> no idea ... sounds rather like a BIOS problem 
[11:40] <ogra> or like it tries to boot from a non existent HD 
[11:41] <bob> ook ill have a poke
[11:41] <bob> whod have thoguht changing a monitor could cause so much problem...
[11:41] <mhz> ogra: ever used xmaxima ?
[11:41] <ogra> whats that ? 
[11:42] <mhz> it's a mix of math apps
[11:42] <mhz> octave is one of them
[11:42] <mhz> but the gui... sucks so badly that I don't even dare to inculde it as a default edu apps
[11:43] <mhz> I mean, the app is excellent, but its windows... too terrible
[11:43] <bob> ahhh ok. i was plugging it into the main box for power, plugged the monitor in seperately and its fine. psu must be on its last legs
[11:45] <ogra> mhz, what makes you think about including windows apps ? 
[11:46] <mhz> ogra: I mean windows as in "the windows you use for your linux apps"
[11:46] <mhz> with the x button at the corner
[11:46] <ogra> heh
[11:46] <mhz> oh, you were kidding??!!
[11:46] <mhz> I see
[11:46] <ogra> :)
[11:46] <mhz> your back is so much better
[11:47] <mhz> OR
[11:47] <mhz> you have no mdz pressure
[11:47] <mhz> hehehe
[11:47] <mhz> OR
[11:48] <mhz> your girlfriend is turning into a geek too
[11:48] <mhz> (that would be nice)
[11:48] <ogra> in fact i'm spending the last 10 mins of my birthday, having a glass of merlot and syncing the live isos for testing 
[11:48] <mhz> (but usually means she is not that pretty) :D
[11:49] <ogra> and my DSL is back ....
[11:49] <mhz> ogra: ooh, Happy day of Birth!
[11:49] <ogra> thanks :)
[11:49] <bob> its your birthday??
[11:49] <bob> happy birthday!
[11:49] <mhz> to you ...
[11:49] <ogra> thanks as well bob :)
[11:49] <bob> you should probabyl get off the internet and do something in the real world :)
[11:49] <ogra> it nearly *was* ...
[11:50] <mhz> ogra: I can get you a nice bottle of wine if Mark lets you come here by the end of april
[11:50] <mhz> thers's lot of fine viriety to choose from here
[11:50] <ogra> mhz, lets see ... its very tight with the ubuntu conference ... 
[11:50] <mhz> nah
[11:51] <ogra> nah ? 
[11:51] <mhz> Jeff Waugh has already agreed to come, So has Daniele Favara
[11:51] <mhz> ogra: not that tight
[11:51] <mhz> LA tour could easily take 10 days to do 4-5 countries
[11:52] <ogra> really ? jdub agreed ? 
[11:52] <mhz> plus... with a nice bottle of chilean wine you would definately feel more loose
[11:52] <ogra> cool
[11:52] <ogra> i'd *love* to come ...
[11:52] <mhz> just come
[11:52] <mhz> :)
[11:53] <ogra> heh
[11:53] <ogra> lets see what mark says ... :)
[11:54] <mhz> he'llprobably say yeah, "I'll support from here"
[11:54] <mhz> :)
[11:54] <ogra> its two weeks ago that i talked to him ... he didnt mention anything ... when did you mail him ? 
[11:55] <mhz> ogra: but I can't even express how important it is for some LA countries the tour takes place. There's really lots of reasons
[11:55] <bob> right, im not gna bother you any more on your birthday :p have a good one ogra, thanks for your help (yet again...) :)
[11:55] <mhz> ogra: I have emailed him at least 5 mails from 2 weeks ago until monday or tuesday
[11:56] <ogra> bob my bday is over in 4 minutes ... dont worry 
[11:56] <ogra> bah 
[11:57] <mhz> ogra: and JaneW has been CC'ed every email I sent to Mark
[11:57] <ogra> mhz, i'll talk to him once he's back 
[11:57] <mhz> please
[11:59] <mhz_cook> ogra: thx
[11:59] <ogra> :)
[12:03] <mhz_cook> ogra: and about higher end-users (university opnes or science highschool), xmaxima is the fines reference in linux
[12:04] <mhz_cook> it is just its front end or gui that looks crappy for 2006 users
[12:04] <mhz_cook> very much like default emacs
[12:04] <mhz_cook> maybe worst
[12:04] <ogra> shudder
[12:04] <mhz_cook> shudder?