[02:13] <sorush20> hi guys
[02:13] <sorush20> I think I finally made it for one of your meetings... 
[02:14] <jsgotangco> 1 hour early :D
[02:14] <sorush20> jsgotangco: so what are the ajenda? 
[02:15] <sorush20> agenda 
[02:15] <jsgotangco> sorush20: devel meeting, we're just going to watch...
[02:15] <jsgotangco> see topic
[02:19] <sorush20> what can we discuss in this meeting? 
[02:31] <Seveas> sorush20, absolutely nothing 
[02:32] <ogra> err ...
[02:32] <ogra> jsgotangco, you know there is a development status meeting in 30min ? 
[02:32] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:32] <sorush20> how about creating more standard partitioning schemes? like /home /root /boot /swap  
[02:33] <ogra> ah, sorry didnt read everything above 
[02:33] <BenC> sorush20: this isn't the place for that
[02:33] <sorush20> BenC: which brings me back to the qustion I asked what can we discuss here? 
[02:33] <BenC> nothing, basically
[02:34] <sorush20> development status? how developed is it ? 
[02:34] <BenC> #ubuntu-devel is the correct place for bringing up technical discussion
[02:34] <Seveas> sorush20, this meeting will make JaneW produce another nice colored report
[02:34] <Seveas> that's the main purpose
[02:34] <BenC> sorush20: the devel status metting is more or less a read-only pasting of what the core devs are doing
[02:34] <JaneW> Seveas: you got it ;)
[02:34] <BenC> it's a way for us to see what each other is up to
[02:35] <BenC> and JaneW does make really spiffy reports
[02:35] <JaneW> and to track consolidated dev progress
[02:35] <Seveas> those reports should be more "present" like on the devel wikipage
[02:35] <Seveas> so everyone can see how hard all devs are trying to rock 
[02:36] <JaneW> Seveas: they are featured on the fridge
[02:36] <JaneW> BenC: :))
[02:42] <fabbione> sorush20: anyway the more sophisticated partition is already there if you tell the installer to go in expert mode.
[02:50] <mdz> JaneW: all set?
[02:51] <JaneW> mdz: nearly
[02:51] <JaneW> mdz: about to start pinging
[02:52] <Riddell> hi JaneW 
[02:53] <JaneW> doko, infinity, iwj, jbailey, jdub, hno73, kamion, keybuk, krstic, lathiat, Mithrandir, mvo, seb128, sivan, Kinnison : ping - meeting in 8 mins
[02:53] <Mithrandir> seven minutes.
[02:53] <Mithrandir> :-P
[02:53] <Kamion> here
[02:53] <JaneW> hi all
[02:53] <mvo> JaneW: yes
[02:54] <jbailey> JaneW: Heya!
[02:54] <JaneW> hi
[02:55] <seb128> hey JaneW
[02:55] <JaneW> hno73 is not on IRC and ajmitch gave apologies
[02:55] <JaneW> hi infinity 
[02:55] <dholbach> JaneW: hno73 is heno
[02:56] <dholbach> JaneW: pinged him already
[02:56] <JaneW> dholbach: oic
[02:56] <JaneW> we are waiting for doko, iwj, lathiat, sivan & Kinnison 
[02:57] <JaneW> fabbione: are you thor?
[02:57] <fabbione> JaneW: eheh
[02:59] <JaneW> mdz: I'll mail lathiat and sivang if they don't show up, I did ping them on #u-d too
[02:59] <mdz> JaneW: otherwise we have a full complement?
[02:59] <JaneW> doko and iwj still missing, have they been around today?
[02:59] <fabbione> i did talk with doko no more than 11 minutes ago
[03:00] <dholbach> JaneW: doko is here
[03:00] <Kinnison> is it meeting time?
[03:00] <JaneW> ok thanks
[03:00] <mdz> yes, it is meeting time
[03:00] <JaneW> Kinnison: yes, hold onto your hat
[03:00] <mdz> from the top
[03:00] <mdz> ajmitch isn't here
[03:00] <mdz> so BenC is first
[03:00] <JaneW> oh I have his hang on
[03:01] <JaneW> ajmitch: Due to working away from home at the moment, the SELinux work is progressing
[03:01] <JaneW> slowly & is unlikely to be ready by feature freeze. Policy packaging is being
[03:01] <JaneW> done with Debian people now, and a patch to remove unneeded messages from 
[03:01] <JaneW> sysvinit will be forthcoming in the next couple of days, so that selinux
[03:01] <JaneW> support in sysvinit can be turned on again. 
[03:01] <BenC> community-server-hardware-testing: Announcement was supposed to go out, but looks like I forgot to actually send it. Going out right after the meeting. Automated scripts are updated and runs will commence this evening.
[03:01] <BenC> kernel bug work: SquashFS, USB, Firewire, Visual cleanups (quiet messages, cleanup PPC OF boot screens), ACPI, SMP issues, general bug maint.
[03:01] <Keybuk> BenC: can I pick your brain wrt to the kernel's PCI Express implementation after this meeting?
[03:01] <BenC> Keybuk: yeah, definitely
[03:02] <JaneW> sorry about that, didn't have my c&p ready... mdz can I mark SELinux as deferred?
[03:02] <mdz> JaneW: yes, thanks
[03:02] <JaneW> mdz: ok done
[03:03] <mdz> BenC: sabdfl raised an idea of making a very broad call for testing; it would be good to send him a mail regarding preventing-hardware-support-regressions and ensure that the instructions incorporate our plans there
[03:03] <BenC> ok, can do
[03:04] <mdz> BenC: ok, thanks
[03:04] <Keybuk> SELinux in general has an annoying shouty factor, lots of people shout that they want it, but when you ask them for help, they vanish
[03:04] <mdz> dholbach?
[03:04] <dholbach> this week (done): GNOME 2.13.91, REVU DAY, random bugs, MOTU and a11y meeting
[03:04] <dholbach> this week (todo): BUG DAY (please all attend - if you have specific ideas add them to UbuntuBugDay), bug triage, apt-get.org reviews
[03:04] <dholbach> next week: more bug triage, apt-get.org reviews, help MOTUs to get stuff sorted for FeatureFreeze
[03:04] <Keybuk> it's been disabled in sysvinit too
[03:04] <mdz> dholbach: your /Testing announcement made LWN, by the way
[03:04] <dholbach> mdz: yeah, i noticed :)
[03:04] <mdz> good coverage
[03:05] <mdz> dholbach: where and when for bug day?
[03:05] <dholbach> and by the amount of bugs and people popping into #ubuntu-bugs i daresay some have read it :)
[03:05] <dholbach> #ubuntu-bugs, Feb 17th
[03:05] <seb128> tomorrow
[03:05] <dholbach> so it IS HUG DAY in some days of the world already :)
[03:05] <fabbione> dholbach: count on me tomorrow :)
[03:05] <mdz> dholbach: do we have developers to cover the full day?
[03:05] <mdz> if not, now is a good time to scare up volunteers ;-)
[03:05] <dholbach> I'll be there.
[03:05] <dholbach> (minus dogwalks ;))
[03:05] <JaneW> lol
[03:06] <fabbione> dholbach: if my wife is away i will be around for long time :)
[03:06] <seb128> me too (but that's the same timezone)
[03:06] <mdz> we should have a (rough) schedule to ensure that there is always someone there
[03:06] <sivang> fabbione: heh
[03:06] <infinity> I can idle in #ubuntu-bugs during my core hours for hug day.
[03:06] <dholbach> if you'd just join #ubuntu-bugs and add stuff that you want to have triaged to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay that 'd be great
[03:06] <mdz> dholbach: I suggest putting together a wiki page with approximate times when developers plan to be there, and recruiting to fill in the gaps
[03:06] <dholbach> we have volunteers who just don't know where to start
[03:07] <dholbach> mdz: good idea - i'll do it after the meeting
[03:07] <fabbione> dholbach: point them at X :P
[03:07] <dholbach> fabbione: are the bugs already assigned to the team?
[03:07] <fabbione> yes
[03:07] <mdz> dholbach: the motu sync requests that you forward, are those basically all that you receive?  or are you filtering some additional requests?
[03:07] <dholbach> fabbione: then I'll add it and think of an announcement text
[03:07] <fabbione> ok
[03:08] <dholbach> mdz: i want somebody to read through them and acknowledge, before i send them to you
[03:08] <dholbach> mdz: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/UVFStatus keeps track
[03:08] <dholbach> thanks to stratus, who replaced my local uvf.txt file :)
[03:09] <dholbach> mdz: ah sorry, those were the UVF ones
[03:09] <mdz> dholbach: if we can get a checklist in place to ensure that the requestors test, verify dependencies, etc., then it may be reasonable to delegate universe sync approvals to motu
[03:09] <dholbach> mdz: we tried to set up a wiki page for the sync requests too, but i guess most people send them to elmo directly still
[03:09] <mdz> dholbach: right, I meant UVF exceptions (most of which seem to be syncs)
[03:10] <mdz> ok, let's chat about it a bit later perhaps
[03:10] <dholbach> some do, but due to the amount of time syncs take in our days, some resorted to package and uploading themselves
[03:10] <dholbach> yeah
[03:10] <mdz> thanks, dholbach
[03:10] <mdz> doko?
[03:11] <JaneW> I don;t think doko is here
[03:11] <mdz> he was here earlier
[03:11] <JaneW> I have had no resonse from him...
[03:11] <mdz> he's still connected
[03:11] <mdz> please send him a message and see what's happened
[03:11] <mdz> meanwhile
[03:11] <mdz> fabbione? 
[03:11] <fabbione> Since we are approaching Feature Freeze the report is a bit more detailed:
[03:11] <JaneW> will do
[03:11] <fabbione> * server-candy: "Ship a Server Test Suite on the CD": no progress other than a couple of mails. "Third party software inclusion": we have a list of apps submitted by community that needs to be reviewed (licence) and in case packaged. "central snakeoil SSL setup": almost completed. Missing one or two packages only (pending on lamont and infinity). "Create an MD5 checker for the Ubuntu Installer rescue mode": Still blocked on admin #723. "
[03:11] <fabbione> Provide a RCS /etc out of the box" deferred to dapper+1 (too many issues have been raised to be done in a proper way in such short time).
[03:11] <fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: Usual round of redhat cluster suite updates, Ben is looking at OCFS2 kernel bug fixes (if any). Gone trough the entire spec with Ivan (neuralis) and made some conclusions for Dapper: SLURM - deferred (licence issues and no time to port it to gnutls), DRBD - deferred (it's basically only x86* and it has a bunch of annoying limitations to be really useful), LVS (ipvsadm and keepalived) - packages cleaned up and approved f
[03:11] <fabbione> or main (they are in pitti's queue and will be done by tomorrow), ganglia - standby (pkgs are old and missing a lot of love. we might get it in before FF).
[03:11] <fabbione> * last week: a lot of server-candy and ubuntu-cluster work. Buggered Kamion to install -server kernels from server CD. EVERYBODY HUG COLIN NOW!
[03:11] <fabbione> * next week: Attempt to cleanup ssl-cert package to be more user friendly (core was done before starting the transition). Start cleaning -server CD. Hopefully start looking into X.
[03:12] <mdz> fabbione: who is doing the license review?
[03:12] <infinity> fabbione: I have some pending ssl-cert changes I need to clean up and commit to SVN.
[03:12] <fabbione> mdz: me basically...
[03:12] <Kamion> -server kernels stuff isn't quite done yet, there are some problems
[03:12] <infinity> fabbione: If it's not blocking you, I intended to do so on the weekend (since I also want to upload to Debian with a mess of bugfixes)
[03:13] <ogra> Kamion, i just did what i was asked for ;)
[03:13] <fabbione> mdz: and involing mdy for permissions if required. but that part is the one that scares me the less
[03:13] <doko> sorry, didn't look at the watch ...
[03:13] <Kamion> chiefly https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/base-installer/+bug/31474 and seed changes blocked on that
[03:13] <fabbione> infinity: no it's not blocking me. the transition my side is done
[03:13] <fabbione> Kamion: we still want to hug you, OK?
[03:14] <pitti> fabbione: does the switch to the ssl-cert group cause any troubles?
[03:14] <mdz> ok, thanks fabbione
[03:14] <fabbione> pitti: not we did think of.
[03:14] <fabbione> mdz: welcome
[03:14] <mdz> heno: you are here?
[03:15] <heno> mdz: yep
[03:15] <heno> example-content: first package version in universe. Most of the content needs upgrading though and we need a link from Nautilus or a desktop icon ...
[03:15] <pitti> I have a pending main inclusion report, but that's pretty pathologic, I assume
[03:15] <mdz> pitti: yes, I imagine it only needs an eyeball
[03:16] <pitti> yep, will check packaging and such
[03:16] <mdz> dholbach: is it already seeded?
[03:16] <dholbach> mdz: no.
[03:16] <Riddell> heno: I'll try and find someone to make a kubuntu-example-content
[03:16] <ogra> mdz, we all do ...
[03:16] <mdz> dholbach: please go ahead and seed it, then it can move immediately once the report is complete
[03:16] <Riddell> that would probably be from the same source
[03:16] <mdz> s/report/review/
[03:16] <pitti> Riddell: oh, is the current package ubuntu specific?
[03:16] <dholbach> mdz: ok
[03:16] <mdz> Riddell: excellent idea
[03:16] <heno> Riddell: great ok, we can mention Kubuntu in the main content as well
[03:16] <mdz> heno: I thought we agreed to use the Places menu?
[03:16] <Riddell> pitti: most isn't, some parts use ubuntu logo where it would be better to use a kubuntu logo etc
[03:17] <mdz> that's the most appealing option to me so far
[03:17] <pitti> I see
[03:17] <heno> both places menu and Nautilus have been mentioned
[03:17] <heno> places is probably the easiest
[03:17] <ogra> heno, is it easy to rebrand that content for edubuntu ? 
[03:17] <dholbach> mdz: the problem is, that if we patch gtk/whatever, people will not be able to remove that bookmark
[03:17] <seb128> places menu tends to already be long, you want to put extra stuff here?
[03:18] <mdz> seb128: it's either that, or a desktop icon...
[03:18] <mdz> needs to be visible
[03:18] <seb128> desktop icon is easy to get ride of
[03:18] <JaneW> I don't think it will be found in places...
[03:18] <seb128> you have no way to drop a places menu item
[03:18] <mdz> yes, but ugly on everyone's desktop
[03:18] <Riddell> why not a link in skel?
[03:18] <heno> silbs suggested we focus on ubuntu for now but sprinkle in some ku/edubuntu
[03:18] <ogra> Riddell, eek
[03:18] <Riddell> so it's in new user's home directory
[03:18] <ogra> heno, ah, k so i can "just use" it then ? 
[03:18] <JaneW> is there a constraint to adding it at the bottom of the Applications menu?
[03:18] <mdz> dholbach: let's have a mailing list discussion about where to put it; no time for it now
[03:18] <Kamion> /etc/skel links need to be considered very very carefully
[03:18] <heno> there are already some wallpapers from each of those
[03:19] <ogra> cool
[03:19] <dholbach> mdz: ok
[03:19] <mdz> thanks heno
[03:19] <mdz> infinity?
[03:19] <heno> ogra: I think so yes
[03:19] <infinity> last week:
[03:19] <infinity> reducing-duplication: thunderbird and enigmail updates to kick mozilla out of main (yay!)
[03:19] <infinity> misc: initramfs hacking, digging around in PHP CVS for security fixes (should release tomorrow when I wake up, now that I hear it doesn't require handholding), lots and lots of digging through failed build logs and babysitting the soyuz buildds (bugs filed, celso and kiko responding, work progressing there)
[03:19] <JaneW> sivang: alphabetical...
[03:19] <infinity> next week:
[03:19] <infinity> splash-down: need to look into some usplash/bogl misfeatures blocking changes required to make splash-down work sanely
[03:19] <sivang> JaneW: ah
[03:19] <infinity> misc: deal with babysitting buildds more, and catalog anything/everything I want to get in and done before FeatureFreeze.
[03:20] <mdz> infinity: I'm interested in soyuz progress; if you could mail me a list of bugs to look at, I'd appreciate that
[03:20] <infinity> mdz: Can I TODO it and get you in the loop in the morning when I have my head on straight? (It's 1:20am here)
[03:21] <mdz> infinity: of course (and it's 6:20 here ;-) )
[03:21] <infinity> Lucky you. ;)
[03:21] <mdz> infinity: so when anastacia is resurrected, mozilla should be able to move to universe now?
[03:21] <infinity> That's the theory.
[03:21] <infinity> Hard to tell without anastacia to confirm, but it should be good to go.
[03:21] <iwj> Yay.
[03:22] <Kamion> you may be able to tell from germinate output
[03:22] <mdz> infinity: should be possible to confirm with germinate
[03:22] <Kamion> snap
[03:22] <infinity> Point. :)
[03:22] <mdz> thanks infinity
[03:22] <mdz> iwj?
[03:22] <iwj> AutomatedTesting: Not much change since last report.  Had discussion with Kinnison about integration into the build systems; awaiting implementation from me and then work on the build systems.  When do we call the goal `complete' ?
[03:22] <iwj> AutomatedTesting: No progress on piuparts (etc.) integration and additional per-package tests; not blocked.
[03:22] <iwj> Firefox: some broken packages last week (sorry).  Fallout from the mozilla/nspr/nss transition seems to be reducing.  Bug situation is dire - I'm drowning in unsearchable unfindable low-quality reports.
[03:22] <iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Editing work in progress.
[03:22] <iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: Have found (I think) where to bypass the `You have chosen to open ...' dialogue.  Turning this off (so that it just takes the default) will make things work better most of the time but will expose broken MIME database entries by making working around them harder.  I plan to do this this week.
[03:22] <iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: .desktop file security issue needs investigating and probably fixing.
[03:22] <iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: After these two things I think I will call the goal done (even though there are still many deviations from correct behaviour particularly if the server sends wrong MIME information, which upstream know about).
[03:22] <iwj> Bugs backlog: awful.
[03:22] <iwj> Email backlog: none.
[03:22] <mdz> iwj: thanks for the automated-testing transcript
[03:23] <iwj> NP
[03:23] <Kamion> germinate output still suggests mozilla-browser's needed for some things, but I'm not sure that's real; would need investigation
[03:23] <mdz> iwj: from here it will need a higher-level interface than what I saw there; we want to be able to have it act on a .deb or set of .debs
[03:23] <iwj> I was wondering if I might patch dbuild or something to run it.
[03:23] <mdz> your demo showed the package installation being handled separately, e.g.
[03:23] <iwj> Yes.
[03:23] <mdz> we want to be able to say "test this .deb" and have it do its thing
[03:23] <pitti> Kamion: mozilla-psm maybe? that's the only rdep I can think of
[03:24] <Kamion> pitti: no, enigmail apparently
[03:24] <iwj> This is something that it has to do for the build-time testing.
[03:24] <Kamion> pitti: -> #ubuntu-devel
[03:24] <mdz> yes
[03:24] <iwj> So yes, it's next on the list.
[03:24] <mdz> I have no particularly strong feeling on whether it's responsible for the chroot, or relies on the user creating that ahead of time
[03:24] <mdz> iwj: we can call it complete when it's running automatically and periodically over main
[03:25] <iwj> There's at the moment about two use cases: the LP build systems, and individual maintainers.
[03:25] <mdz> and failures are reported somehow
[03:25] <iwj> The current plan is to make it run as part of every build.
[03:25] <sivang> mdz: wouldn't we need to have all main packages "enabled" with it before?
[03:25] <mdz> iwj: running as part of the build is nice, but not a complete solution
[03:25] <mdz> we'd like for it to detect indirect failures caused by changes in other packages as well
[03:26] <iwj> That's true.
[03:26] <iwj> I didn't discuss that with Kinnison.  I'll do so.
[03:26] <Kinnison> iwj: tonight?
[03:26] <iwj> kinnison: Sure.  Shouldn't take too long.
[03:26] <mdz> iwj: regarding bug backlog, dholbach is looking for lists of bugs to feed bug day volunteers
[03:26] <Kinnison> iwj: cool
[03:26] <mdz> they can assist in trying to reproduce bugs, looking for upstream bugs, etc.
[03:27] <iwj> mdz: Excellent.  Although the ff ones are a bit dispiriting for me.  Maybe bug volunteers prefer them; there's often not much getting-to-grips-with-code and a lot of asking-for-more-info etc.
[03:27] <mdz> sounds like a great match then
[03:27] <dholbach> iwj: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay - asking for more info is fine
[03:27] <mdz> thanks iwj
[03:27] <mdz> jbailey?
[03:27] <jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmapNg: I've begun basic testing of a glibc-2.4 snapshot on ppc.  Aiming for my test build ~ March 8th.
[03:27] <jbailey>  * Other: 
[03:27] <jbailey> 1) Clearing out bugs and getting them assigned away at a decent rate.  Figured out how to unsubscribe myself from packages (done for grub, and evolution-exchange now).  To whom should evolution-exchange bugs go to?  (Adam, Sb, other)?
[03:27] <jbailey> 2) I am no longer hanging out on #ubuntu-devel to reduce visibility somewhat - if you need me just /msg or phone.
[03:27] <jbailey> 3) Been moving the timezone code over and relearning how the magic all works to make sure I get it right, sorry for the lag.
[03:28] <dholbach> jbailey: desktop-bugs is probably the best.
[03:28] <jbailey> dholbach: Cool, thanks.
[03:28] <dholbach> (although i don't very much like the idea (no way of testing, etc)) :)
[03:28] <mdz> jbailey: if needed, #launchpad should be able to arrange mass reassigns
[03:28] <mdz> (if you have a huge list of bugs to touch)
[03:28] <mdz> eek, we're running behind
[03:28] <mvo> jbailey: 3) is not uploaded yet, right?
[03:28] <mdz> jbailey: thanks
[03:29] <mdz> Kamion?
[03:29] <jbailey> mdz: Cool, thanks.  I've been trying to check to make sure things are sane.
[03:29] <infinity> dholbach: I can provide you with an exchange server to test against, but I haven't ever used evo (and don't intend to start), so I may not be the best person to care about its plugins.
[03:29] <jbailey> mvo: Correct, not yet uploaded.
[03:29] <mvo> thanks
[03:29] <Kamion> ubuntu-express: Finished debconffilter rework, so the UI is reasonably responsive now. More Guadalinex unbranding. Helping Tollef come on-line and trying to keep up with merging all his changes. :-)
[03:29] <Kamion> ue-gnome-ui: Split out install progress to a separate window per mpt's design. Screenshots removed. Added a link to the desktop (still needs icon love).
[03:29] <Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Automatic partitioning works now. Much better handling of gparted in manual partitioning mode, although still some bugs. Disk selector hidden for now because it still sucks.
[03:29] <Kamion> ubuntu-express-base-system: Tollef's working on keymap configuration.
[03:29] <Kamion> misc: base-installer fixes to make it work better when you're installing without restricted (this was a deferred Hoary goal!). Published CD build logs where everyone can read them. Basic support for -server ke
[03:29] <jbailey> dholbach, infinity: Let's talk about it and get an exchange server setup at the DC - we'll need this for support testing anyway.
[03:29] <dholbach> infinity: Ok, thanks.
[03:29] <Kamion> rnels in base-installer, but it's not quite all there yet.
[03:29] <Kamion> next-week: Flight CD 4 today or tomorrow I hope; starting testing now. Language configuration in Espresso; "ready to install" summary page. Banging on through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/ToDo as fast as possible.
[03:29] <Kamion> sorry for line breakage there
[03:30] <Kamion> also, soyuz ftpmaster training, and filing bugs (most of which have been resolved very quickly, thanks Kinnison/cprov); I can do both NEW and override changes now, and I think removals as well
[03:30] <mdz> Kamion: where are the CD build logs?  are they linked from DeveloperResources?
[03:30] <ogra> yup
[03:30] <Kamion> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/cd-build-logs/, and yes, there's a link there
[03:30] <mdz> Kamion: the todo list seems to be dominated by UI tasks
[03:31] <mdz> Kamion: is that an accurate reflection of status?
[03:31] <Kamion> well, if you count the several missing features at the top as UI tasks, yes
[03:31] <Kamion> (which they sort of are)
[03:31] <Kamion> I think the missing features will dominate development for the next week or two, then we can move into polishing
[03:31] <mdz> Kamion: if we need to recruit a pygtk guru to help blow through some of the UI work, that can be arranged
[03:32] <Kamion> but yes, in a couple of weeks some attention from a guru might help
[03:32] <mdz> Kamion: clearly. :-)  but that may not be the fastest way to get it done
[03:32] <mdz> ok
[03:32] <ogra> just get lamesh to look at it :)
[03:32] <mdz> espresso will appear on the desktop for flight 4?
[03:32] <ogra> *jamesh
[03:32] <Kamion> assuming my change last night worked
[03:32] <mdz> cool
[03:33] <mdz> thanks Kamion
[03:33] <mdz> Keybuk?
[03:33] <Keybuk> streamlined-boot: experimenting with one, two and three phases of readahead runs to see which gives the best performance. going to liberate an old P200 from backup DNS duty and install dapper on that, should give a great chart in the ogra time ranges.
[03:33] <Keybuk> network-magic: ifrename bugs all fixed, and it now seems to be working great and better than the breezy version (it reliably swaps network cards).  need to decide what to do about "clashed" interfaces.  getting pitti to do a final check of network-manager for main inclusion, and will recommend it for main next week and either the supported or ship seeds -- I'm not happy enough with it for desktop for dapper, I'm afraid.
[03:33] <Keybuk> other: scott@canonical/ubuntu.com mail now gets delivered to my gmail account, so that should work.  all paperwork and stuff signed for my new line, just waiting for a final install date
[03:33] <Keybuk> next week: readahead will be top priority
[03:33] <JaneW> Keybuk: streamlined-boot is still in briandump... is it going to happen or be deferred?
[03:33] <mdz> Keybuk: where do bug reports about the ifrename stuff end up?  are you monitoring ubuntu-bugs or otherwise ensuring that you see them?
[03:34] <Keybuk> JaneW: it's happened I just never wrote it down (bad keybuk)
[03:34] <Keybuk> you could probably set it at implemented <g>
[03:34] <JaneW> Keybuk: you going to finish spec or just implement?
[03:34] <Keybuk> mdz: udev, ifrename, etc.  I'm watching all of them
[03:34] <JaneW> oh is it already implemented?
[03:34] <Keybuk> JaneW: I have been meaning to write down everything in the spec, yes
[03:34] <JaneW> I'll update it then
[03:34] <mdz> Keybuk: it seems like the sort of thing where the user wouldn't know which package to file under
[03:34] <Keybuk> and have the spec as a "readme" for future reference
[03:34] <ogra> Keybuk, note that i have to trade between fast boot and low memory ... readahead might take to much mem
[03:34] <mdz> s/wouldn't/& necessarily/
[03:34] <Keybuk> mdz: indeed, ubuntu-bugs has simply too much traffic to grep through the web interface sadly
[03:35] <Keybuk> and tbh, too much to grep through a mail client now
[03:35] <Keybuk> ogra: you've had it since hoary, so isn't that bad :)
[03:35] <mdz> Keybuk: I don't have trouble doing it through mail
[03:35] <ogra> Keybuk, i'm not sure its used on thin clients currently (as long as it doesnt hide an any other initscript its not used)
[03:36] <dholbach> Keybuk: no network-manager for dapper desktop?
[03:36] <Keybuk> I gave up once is was eating more than an hour of my time a day
[03:36] <mdz> Keybuk: you should be able to search very effectively with your mail routed to gmail now ;-)
[03:36] <Keybuk> I'd be happy to take any advice
[03:36] <Keybuk> mdz: only my direct inbox mail is routed there ... no mailing list subscriptions
[03:36] <Keybuk> dholbach: indeed
[03:36] <mdz> Keybuk: can you send a mail to -devel and me with a list of issues and concerns?
[03:36] <Keybuk> mdz: with which?
[03:36] <mdz> Keybuk: n-m
[03:36] <Keybuk> sure thing
[03:36] <mdz> Keybuk: so that we can talk it out, and when we've made a decision, we have someplace to point to explain it
[03:36] <mdz> great, thanks
[03:37] <mdz> JaneW: updates from lathiat/krstic?
[03:37] <Keybuk> basically it's turned out to a huge pile of intertangled deps, and very hard work (much harder than I thought at first glance) to mutate it to our needs
[03:37] <Keybuk> and I'm simply not happy with it being installed by default
[03:37] <Keybuk> when it works, it's great
[03:37] <Keybuk> but when it doesn't work, it requires severely heavy know-how to get your computer back to working again
[03:37] <Keybuk> (I'll summarise more eloquently on the list)
[03:37] <JaneW> mdz: no not yet I'll mail lathiat, krstic's goal is deferred
[03:37] <mdz> right
[03:37] <mdz> Mithrandir?
[03:37] <Mithrandir> livecd-performance: no further improvements, I still haven't had the time to test lzma, I don't know what Scott has done wrt readahead
[03:38] <Mithrandir> simplified-live-cd: implemented; still missing stackable file systems (wanted for espresso)
[03:38] <Mithrandir> misc: getting up to speed on espresso, has refactored some of the UI.  This has taken a fair bit of effort, so I'm behind on email.  Working on the keyboard selection for espresso.  fixed ddcprobe to work on amd64, so we now have the correct resolution on the live cd
[03:38] <Mithrandir> blocked on: access to popcon.ubuntu.com, but I have plenty to do, so it's not urgent
[03:38] <Mithrandir> spec list is getting shorter and shorter, I guess that's a good thing. :-)
[03:38] <infinity> \o/ to ddcprobe on amd64.
[03:38] <ogra> yay
[03:38] <ogra> (even it still helps with my widescreen display)
[03:38] <Mithrandir> today's live has the new and shiny ddcprobe.
[03:38] <ogra> s/helps/doesnt help/
[03:39] <Mithrandir> ogra: fix your video bios. :-P
[03:39] <mdz> Mithrandir: we still win even if nothing else happens on livecd-performance, so your help is much more valuable on espresso
[03:39] <ogra> :P
[03:39] <mdz> Mithrandir: I'm happy to call the dapper portion of livecd-performance implemented whenever you're happy with it
[03:39] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, you asked me to concentrate on espresso last week.
[03:40] <Mithrandir> mdz: ok, I guess we'll just take the fixes scott brings in for readahead and call -performance done for dapper, then.
[03:40] <mdz> Mithrandir: right, I'm saying that we can clear that from your list entirely and don't need updates on it
[03:40] <ogra> liveCd is scary fast :)
[03:40] <Mithrandir> yup
[03:40] <mdz> yes, it's looking good
[03:40] <ogra> already
[03:40] <mdz> doko: you're back?
[03:41] <doko> yes
[03:41] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: I'm basically doing readahead as we've discussed ... so should be a win for livecd just as much as for install
[03:41] <doko> this week:
[03:41] <doko> - dapper-toolchain: Updated all packages in main to build with the default g++ to be able demote g++-3.4 from main, gcc-4.0 updates
[03:41] <doko> - dapper-toolchain+1: updated packages for test rebuild
[03:41] <doko> - python-roadmap: python2.3 ready to be demoted from main, some python packages rebuilt.
[03:41] <doko> - openoffice.org: update to 2.0.2rc1, builds now, investigating installation failures
[03:41] <doko> - openoffice.org-gnome: martink did some testcases for the gnome filepicker, working on fixes, gnome-desktop-integration stuff enabled for the next OOo builds
[03:41] <doko> - other: syncs, sync requests, package updates
[03:41] <doko> - java-roadmap: ecj-bootstrap update to 3.1.2, other parts now driven by OOo needs.
[03:41] <doko> next-week:
[03:42] <doko> - uploadable openoffice.org packages
[03:42] <jsgotangco> /j #uia
[03:42] <jsgotangco> hey mgalvin 
[03:42] <mdz> administrative note: it's important that you be present for the entire meeting, not only when it's your turn to present.  one of the reasons that we do things this way is to give everyone a chance to see what their peers are doing, and whether they need help
[03:42] <Keybuk> jsgotangco: bless you
[03:42] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: where do you have the list of stuff to read ahead?
[03:42] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: let's discuss outside of here after the meeting
[03:42] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: sure
[03:42] <mgalvin> g'mornin jsgotangco, all
[03:43] <infinity> doko: Thanks for all the python2.3 demotion uploads this week, BTW.  I was very happy to see thos. :)
[03:43] <infinity> s/thos/those/
[03:43] <pitti> ++
[03:43] <mdz> doko: what work remains on toolchain-roadmap and python-roadmap?
[03:44] <doko> toolchain: final updates to 3.4.6 and 4.0.3 when releaed, not much work
[03:45] <pitti> doko: any rebuilds with the new compiler?
[03:45] <doko> python: no python-central/python-support in dapper, we're not going to make a version switch for dapper, so not actuall needed.
[03:45] <mdz> doko: so python-roadmap is essentially complete?
[03:45] <doko> pitti: AFAIU, we'll do a complete test build of dapper anyway at some point
[03:45] <infinity> Several.
[03:45] <infinity> Over and over.
[03:45] <mdz> yes
[03:45] <doko> mdz: yes
[03:46] <mdz> ok, great
[03:46] <pitti> doko: right, but I mean actually used rebuilt debs (in case they fixed some crashes in compiled code, or so)
[03:46] <mdz> thanks doko
[03:46] <dholbach> infinity: great, the MOTUs will be delighted.
[03:46] <mdz> Kinnison?
[03:46] <doko> needs debian work only 
[03:46] <dholbach> infinity: (they asked about it already)
[03:46] <Kinnison> Firstly, I apologise about this not being in quite the same format as everyone elses. As I get up to speed I'll be better, honest.
[03:46] <Kinnison> == power-management == * Added support to the acpid package for noticing the gnome and kde policy managers for power management * Got a lot more information on a number of g-p-m bugs * Fixed several of them, including the sabdfl lock-on-lid-close bug
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * Touched acpi-support to add some tosiba buttons and to add support for the lock key as a KEY_COFFEE event. Filed a bug against the kernel to get thist working * Started dialogue with upstream about the lid-close stuff.
[03:46] <Kinnison> == general ==
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * Helped pitti with several security uploads, finally automated my part of it for him.
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * Lots and lots of bug work with the users.
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * Started to feel more confident in getting on with things
[03:46] <Kinnison> == going forward ==
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * I need to build a more comprehensive test set for soyuz testing.
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * Built some packages for cprov for testing soyuz
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * More power-management stuff over the coming week
[03:46] <Kinnison>  * I imagine I'll start to find more, or people will say "oh you could do 'foo' to help me out" where 'foo' doesn't need too much back-context for me to be useful.
[03:46] <Kinnison> [end] 
[03:46] <JaneW> Kinnison: format is perfect for me, thanks
[03:47] <mdz> Kinnison: a shift during bug day would be welcome
[03:47] <mdz> and we'll talk in more detail tomorrow or early next week hopefully
[03:48] <mdz> right now, need to try to stay within our time limit
[03:48] <mdz> thanks Kinnison
[03:48] <Kinnison> mdz: I'll do my best
[03:48] <mdz> mvo?
[03:48] <mvo> Did:
[03:48] <mvo> - bug hunting in update-notifier, added workaround for the "it eats my cpu problem" - this needs more work
[03:48] <mvo> - release-upgrades:
[03:48] <mvo>   * automatic dist-upgrade testing infrastructure ready, waits for a home :)
[03:48] <mvo>   * bugfixes
[03:48] <mvo>   * use --force-overwrite per default now (we won't catch overwrite errors from users anymore because dpkg doesn't report them with this setting)
[03:48] <mvo> - third-party-packages:
[03:48] <mvo>   * uses gettext for the desktop files
[03:48] <mvo>   * menu-data updated and split out into own pkg
[03:48] <mvo>   * "All" category added
[03:48] <mvo>   * search improvments
[03:48] <mvo> - added splash for grub
[03:48] <mvo> - default-apt-sources: 
[03:48] <mvo>   * worked on the per-queue-failure code, decided to do something simpler
[03:48] <mvo> - misc: various stuff in language-selector, synaptic, update-manager, gksu, python-xdg, apt, python-apt
[03:48] <mvo> will do:
[03:48] <mvo> - take a day off tomorrow to move to a new flat
[03:48] <mvo> - automatic dist-upgrade testing finish
[03:48] <mvo> - try to cleanly fix the update-notifier eats my cpu problem
[03:48] <mvo> - gnome-app-install add the last missing bits
[03:48] <mvo> - default-apt-sources: turn "can't connect" errors into warnings, look what we can do to reauthenticate the lists on network failures
[03:49] <JaneW> mvo: you going to progress the default-apt-sources spec?
[03:49] <doko> mdz: should be more specific about python-roadmap, that we still strive for python-2.4.3 for dapper, when released
[03:49] <mvo> JaneW: I intend to work on it the next week
[03:49] <JaneW> mvo: spec is still in braindump, and very RED
[03:49] <JaneW> mvo: ok thanks
[03:50] <mdz> JaneW: it's lower priority, but should be a small amount of work and would be very nice to have
[03:50] <mdz> happy for him to delay it until close to feature freeze if his time can be better spent on the higher-priority items
[03:50] <mdz> thanks mvo
[03:50] <mdz> ogra?
[03:50] <ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: started work on nbd swap, trying to find a way to do automated swapfile creation on the server
[03:50] <ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: initscript handling implemented, spec implemented and done
[03:50] <ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no work done
[03:50] <ogra> * general:  powerpc support on ltsp included the ppc specific bits in the default dhcpd.conf (upload and merge pending, yaboot handling missing), flight4 preparation, more ltsp merges (specifically one solving a bashism in ltsp_functions), helping Kinnison on the powermanager takeover.
[03:50] <JaneW> mdz: ok, it was listed as a medium.
[03:50] <ogra> * next-week: finish nbd handling for ltsp (to set spec to implemented), more flight 4 work (as soon as DSL is back), finish gnome-screensaver-default-image, merge peres xauth handling in ldm cleanly, try to switch ltsp-client to dash if time is left before feature freeze (udev bashism needs a deeper look i havent taken yet and sorting), jumping on the gnome-screensaver bugs, convincing ltsp upstream to do flight4 tests (once its out) to get feedba
[03:50] <ogra> ck on the implemented specs ... probably looking into ltsp-client-builder for better progressbar handling in the installer if time is left...
[03:50] <ogra> note: i'm out of DSL since two days, no ETA for fixage yet, ISDN makes it nearly impossible to test edubuntu flight4
[03:52] <mdz> ogra: I seem to recall that nbd had a mechanism to automatically create the files based on IP or similar
[03:52] <mdz> can't recall the details though
[03:52] <mdz> ogra: if you won't be able to test personally, ensure that you find a volunteer to fill in for flight4
[03:52] <ogra> mdz, yes, i'm looking into jammcqs implementation, i know he has a mechanism...
[03:52] <mdz> ogra: ok, need to move on, thanks
[03:52] <mdz> pitti?
[03:52] <ogra> mdz, jsgotangco is great on the amd64 front 
[03:53] <jsgotangco> :D
[03:53] <ogra> i'll have to find others though ..
[03:53] <mdz> JaneW: remind me to reverse the order for the next meeting so that we squeeze a different set of people ;-)
[03:53] <JaneW> mdz: ok
[03:53] <dholbach> haha
[03:53] <jsgotangco> amd64 compiz+xgl working great now too
[03:53] <pitti> status of unimplemented specs:
[03:53] <pitti>  * langpacks-desktopfiles: DONE: implemented langpack support for .server files, which completes the code changes of that spec; still TODO/PLAN: fix non-cdbs+gnome.mk packages manually, discuss the stuff with gnome/fd.o upstream
[03:53] <pitti>  * firewall: DONE: negotiated bounty with carstenh, approved by mdz; target date: May 1st; no blocks any more
[03:53] <pitti>  * reducing-duplication: DONE: dropped MySQL 4.1; final changes to drop mozilla (thanks infinity!), lots of Python 2.3 cleanup (thans doko!); PLAN: gnutls 11->12 transition next week for all packages but openldap; BLOCK: actual mozilla demotion, need help with openldap, need proper madison and melanie-like tools somewhere
[03:53] <pitti>  * automated-problem-reports, automatic-printer-conf: no blocks, no time, deferred to dapper+1
[03:53] <pitti> general stuff done this week:
[03:53] <pitti>  * lots and lots of security update work, worked with Kinnison to get the process working
[03:53] <pitti>  * unbroke CD burning
[03:53] <pitti>  * much bug triage (still scary backlog, though), some bug fixing, main inclusion reviews, CD testing
[03:53] <ogra> jsgotangco, not intresting for edubuntu :P
[03:53] <pitti> general stuff planned next week:
[03:53] <pitti>  * upload postgresql-common ubuntu branch with SSL snakeoil cert support; BLOCK: upload of fixed ssl-cert by fabbione
[03:53] <pitti>  * coordinate Thunderbird locale unbreaking with asac (Debian maintainer)
[03:53] <Kamion> pitti: do you have drescher access?
[03:53] <pitti>  * even more security update backlog
[03:54] <pitti> Kamion: no, I don't
[03:54] <pitti> Kamion: I probably will in the future, when we switch security to drescher
[03:54] <Kamion> pitti: ok, in that case use rookery, copy ~cjwatson/bin/madison-lite and ~cjwatson/.madison-lite/config to your home directory
[03:54] <pitti> cool, thanks
[03:54] <mdz> not sure what we have for melanie, apart from germinate-output
[03:54] <Kamion> pitti: it only updates every six hours but it's a lot better than nothing
[03:54] <Kamion> we don't yet AFAIK
[03:54] <pitti> yes, six hours is more than fine
[03:54] <Kamion> (melanie, that is)
[03:54] <mdz> pitti: re: bug triage, I strongly suggest getting involved with bug day ;-)
[03:54] <Riddell> is germinate output in the same place as before?
[03:55] <Kamion> well, we have a removal tool, but no rdepends checking
[03:55] <pitti> yes, that's planned
[03:55] <mdz> Riddell: yes
[03:55] <mdz> pitti: thanks
[03:55] <Kamion> Riddell: yes, and I just fixed it so that it no longer looks at http://jackass/ ;-)
[03:55] <mdz> seb128?
[03:55] <seb128> GNOME: update to GNOME 2.13.91, lot of bug triage
[03:55] <seb128> gstreamer0.10: desktop and seeds updated for gst0.10, gst0.8 can be demoted to universe
[03:55] <seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: session dialog patch updated to use a fadding effect, started investigating using a GTK theme for the gdm greater, will work on the desktop switcher patch (use tooltip) today
[03:55] <seb128> tomorrow: bug day
[03:55] <seb128> .
[03:55] <seb128> next week: continue bug triage, keep fixing issues with the desktop, update of the panel/session dialog for dapper-desktop-plan according to the mail sent by Mark about that
[03:56] <mdz> seb128: did you verify gst0.8 via germinate?  we have the capability to demote things, but it's not as easy to see without anastacia when they're ready to be moved
[03:56] <seb128> I talked briefly with pitti about it, seems to be ok
[03:56] <Kamion> give germinate a minute or two to update to soyuz here
[03:56] <seb128> I had a look with grep-dctrl, not germinate
[03:57] <mdz> seb128: any change on video-playback?  is it basically done, given that gst0.10 seems to work well?
[03:57] <seb128> yep, I would classify as done
[03:58] <seb128> having user testing/feedback would still be nice
[03:58] <mdz> ok, go ahead and update in launchpad
[03:58] <seb128> will do, thanks
[03:58] <mdz> a call for testing to -devel-announce would be OK
[03:58] <mdz> ask users who switched to totem-xine to switch back and try it
[03:58] <seb128> I'll speak with dholbach about it
[03:58] <dholbach> seb128: yeah
[03:58] <mdz> thanks seb128
[03:58] <mdz> Riddell?
[03:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-express: fair amount done, too many distractions this week to get it to be ready for others to look at yet
[03:59] <pitti> seb128: dvd is ported?
[03:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-system-tools: guidance 0.6 in, still need some fixes to system settings before implemented
[03:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-package-manager: mornfall released alpha 2, update-notifier working, simplified installer progressing well
[03:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-dapper-roadmap: gstreamer 0.8 clean, gcc 3.4 clean (pending a few builds)
[03:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-docs: new snapshot, fixing docbook to work with KDE
[03:59] <Riddell> blocking: adept simplified installer is waiting on gnome-app-install's data to pass NEW, main inclusion review is moving slowly
[03:59] <Riddell> next week: kubuntu-express, flight 4
[03:59] <mdz> Riddell: any screenshots handy of the kubuntu update-notifier?
[03:59] <JaneW> er sivang is waiting too
[03:59] <Riddell> mdz: nope, can do one in 60 seconds though
[03:59] <mdz> Riddell: sure, curious to see what it looks like
[04:00] <seb128> pitti: not yet, but they are working on it (they argue it's not a top priority because it can't be shipped by default anyway for patents, issue etc)
[04:00] <mdz> Riddell: I'm sure when sabdfl returns home to his kubuntu desktop he will have feedback ;-)
[04:00] <Riddell> just a systray icon really
[04:00] <mdz> Riddell: what's happening upstream with KDE within the dapper timeframe?
[04:00] <Riddell> mdz: KDE 3.5.2 in March
[04:00] <Riddell> new k3b out today, very minimal bugfixes, people are testing it
[04:00] <mdz> Riddell: pre-beta?
[04:01] <Riddell> no sign of kde 4 being usable except for core hackers yet
[04:01] <mdz> Riddell: I mean, is 3.5.2 going to arrive before the 6.04 beta/
[04:01] <mdz> s,/,?/
[04:02] <mdz> sivang: update?
[04:02] <sivang> DONE: fs info provider class, backup media devices detection, some GUI bits, work on ISOBuilder CDBurner , Backup class. Researched about DrakeBackup, which closely resembles our design, is a perl hack, however, took some pointers from there. Reworked all the worker classes to use generators for effective progress report throughout their operations.
[04:02] <Riddell> mdz: let me check exact dates
[04:02] <sivang> TODO: polish/finish ISOBUilder, finish Burner and Bakcup classes. rework the GUI according to community's feedback (split resotre and backup to two different dialogs, then have a top level menu), Connect the bits together. 
[04:02] <sivang> I expect to be able to make it for dapper, with this feature adjustments:
[04:02] <sivang> - Backup will have to be done by each user. (current dar limitaion that it can only use one pathspec as source)
[04:02] <sivang> - Desktop notification support will considered nice to have, but if time does not allow it will be deferred for next version.
[04:03] <mdz> sivang: is it suitable for user testing yet?
[04:03] <doko> ogra: what are these ISDN problems?
[04:03] <sivang> mdz: not yet, I'm afraid. I will announce as soon as it is.
[04:03] <JaneW> sivang: cool, was hoping we wouldn;t have another deferred goal :)
[04:03] <mdz> ok
[04:03] <ogra> doko, no ISDN problems ... i wouldnt be here if i had any ...
[04:03] <mdz> thanks sivang
[04:03] <mdz> and we're out of time
[04:03] <pitti> ogra: well, it's just awfully slow :)
[04:03] <ogra> doko, apart from being 64k  ... which is crap for iso syncing ;)
[04:03] <mdz> good meeting, everyone
[04:03] <Riddell> mdz: 3.5.2 oout ~March 24th, so just missing beta by a week
[04:03] <JaneW> Riddell: you still have some specs in brain dump, can you make a call on those soon, if you haven't yet?
[04:03] <mdz> good luck with the rest of your day / sleep / etc.
[04:04] <JaneW> mdz: you too
[04:04] <pitti> thanks everyone
[04:04] <iwj> TTFN all
[04:04] <ogra> thanks mdz 
[04:04] <dholbach> thank you mdz
[04:04] <seb128> thank you mdz
[04:04] <fabbione> cya tomorrow or later guys
[04:04] <Riddell> JaneW: I'll try and get those updated for next week
[04:04] <jsgotangco> sorry for the slight hiccup a few minutes ago! i blame xgl :D
[04:05] <JaneW> Riddell: great, thank-you :)
[07:47] <sorush20> I missed the meeting for that thing.. 1400, but I'll be around for the 2000 hur.. 
[08:58] <raphink> hello
[08:58] <seth> hiya raphink 
[08:59] <raphink> hi seth :)
[08:59] <raphink> KM#1-1m
[08:59] <jpatrick> hello everyone
[08:59] <jjesse> hiya jpatrick
[08:59] <raphink> hi jpatrick, jjesse 
[08:59] <atie> hi
[09:00] <raphink> hi atie 
[09:00] <jpatrick> hello atie, raphink, jjesse, *
[09:00] <raphink> Riddell said he might be a bit late, right jpatrick ?
[09:00] <jpatrick> yes
[09:00] <luka74> hello all
[09:00] <jjesse> he was doing a quick install
[09:00] <raphink> hi luka74 
[09:00] <jpatrick> has to do a quick install
[09:00] <Riddell> good evening all
[09:00] <atie> raphink, jpatrick , hi
[09:00] <raphink> jjesse: ok
[09:00] <raphink> hi Riddell 
[09:00] <jjesse> ooo 3 inches of ice on the ground, its going to be fun going home from work today
[09:00] <Riddell> install still going on so I'm stuck in my cupboard with the other computer
[09:01] <raphink> Tonio can't come to the meeting unfortunately... thanks to the French Telecom Company, that seems to have disconnected his line today 
[09:01] <Riddell> so, Kubuntu Meeting..
[09:01] <jjesse> can't connect to cdimage is there a different place to download a kubuntu flight 3 cd?
[09:01] <Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[09:01] <Riddell> and I saved a copy to http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html since wiki seems not to be online
[09:02] <Riddell> jjesse: flight 3 is old new, flight 4 is in testing now
[09:02] <Riddell> s/new/news/
[09:02] <raphink> good idea Riddell 
[09:02] <Hobbsee> morning everyone!
[09:02] <jjesse> so where can i get flight4 seeing i can't connect to cdimage :(
[09:02] <raphink> re Hobbsee 
[09:02] <raphink> ok
[09:02] <Riddell> jjesse: you can't :(
[09:02] <raphink> anyone volunteering to write the minutes?
[09:02] <jpatrick> me
[09:03] <Riddell> thanks jpatrick 
[09:03] <Riddell> names?
[09:03] <jjesse> bummer need to redownload everything as laptop had a hardware failure :(
[09:03] <raphink> thanks jpatrick 
[09:03] <jmont> (sorry to ask, but the fridge.ubuntu seems to be down) today is kubuntu meeting?
[09:03] <jjesse> jjesse -- Jonathan Jesse
[09:03] <jpatrick> If I'm around for the meeting
[09:03] <raphink> jmont: yes, right now
[09:03] <Riddell> jmont: yes
[09:03] <sorush20> hi
[09:04] <Riddell> wow, what a turn out :)
[09:04] <raphink> so as I said, Tonio couldn't do it tonight, but he had a lot to report and to ask at this meeting, so he asked me to do it for him
[09:04] <sorush20> tell me about it.. 
[09:04] <Riddell> it was raphink who suggested we have a meeting and I guess one of the outcomes of it should be whether meetings are useful and if we should have more in the future
[09:04] <raphink> so I'll be doing my best to represent him ;)
[09:04] <jjesse> personal thought was about time
[09:04] <seth> jjesse +1
[09:04] <sorush20> Riddell: if you want a better turnout we shoudl advertise this channel on the #ubuntu channel topic.. 
[09:04] <raphink> we have a lot of things on the agenda, so I suggest we begin now
[09:05] <raphink> first point is TOnio's
[09:05] <raphink> but I'll begin with some news for the ones who are not up-to-date with kubuntu-devel news :)
[09:05] <jjesse> ooo bring me up to date :)
[09:05] <raphink> as late news, we are happy to have two new KDE MOTUs in our midst :)
[09:06] <raphink> jpatrick and Tonio got accepted as MOTUs last tuesday
[09:06] <raphink> :)
[09:06] <Snake__> Congrads guys
[09:06] <raphink> having more MOTUs focused on KDE is something we really needed, so we're happy to have them :)
[09:06] <Psi-Jack> Did I miss anything? :)
[09:06] <jpatrick> \o/
[09:06] <Riddell> is there anyone else we should get membership/MOTU for?
[09:06] <raphink> Psi-Jack: we just began
[09:06] <luka74> #testlr
[09:06] <seth> Riddell, I'll be getting around to MOTU soon enough :/
[09:06] <Psi-Jack> Great. I'll be quiet and listen for now, then. ;)
[09:07] <raphink> seth: good :) I'm looking forward to it
[09:07] <Riddell> seth: great
[09:07] <seth> Riddell, too many things on my plate right now though, and I don't know if I've contributed sufficiently at this point
[09:07] <raphink> ok :)
[09:07] <Riddell> I wonder if Hobbsee would get past the membership dudes yet
[09:07] <jpatrick> that TechBoard stuff is long..........
[09:07] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i have no idea
[09:07] <Snake__> :)
[09:07] <raphink> jpatrick: hehe
[09:07] <raphink> :)
[09:07] <allee> Riddell: I assume I can dare to apply for membership
[09:07] <seth> Riddell, opinion on what more I should get done before running the TB gauntlet?
[09:08] <sorush20> is it just me or does the http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/2006/02/16/month/event site keep crashing I can't see the adgenda help 
[09:08] <Riddell> allee: yes, please do
[09:08] <Riddell> sorush20: yes, data centre is half out
[09:08] <jpatrick> seth: lots of supporters
[09:08] <seth> (I'm now maintaining 6 packages in Kubuntu and have about 2 1/2 dozen uploads)
[09:08] <Psi-Jack> kubuntu.org is /still/ down? :/
[09:08] <raphink> Riddell: can you put the url of the agenda in the /topic for the duration of the meeting please?
[09:08] <Riddell> people going for membership/maintainership please keep your wiki pages up to date
[09:08] <Riddell> and show them to me before the techboard/community board meeting
[09:09] <sorush20> Riddell: well that is not very good at all , did you guys want me to host for you for a few hours? 
[09:09] <sorush20> lol
[09:09] <Riddell> keep a list of packages you've contributed to, Tonio's page is excellent
[09:09] <raphink> sorush20: hehe
[09:09] <raphink> ok
[09:09] <raphink> :)
[09:09] <sorush20> so with out an adgenda there really is nothing to talk about.. 
[09:09] <Riddell> ** Agenda at http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html
[09:09] <raphink> we have a full agenda sorush20 
[09:09] <Snake__> Sure there is, just call up what we can remeber
[09:09] <jpatrick> well it's not long before FeatureFreeze....
[09:10] <raphink> let's follow up with Tonio's Kubuntu default settings, shall we?
[09:10] <Snake__> Ahh Riddell 's on it :)
[09:10] <raphink> we have lots of things to discuss tonight
[09:10] <Riddell> raphink: go ahead
[09:10] <sorush20> is there anyway that ubuntu users can pay for the proprietory software though ubuntu canonical ? 
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:51:42) ompaul: sorush20, no, but it is an interesting idea
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:51:53) ompaul: what do you think it would cost 
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:52:24) ompaul: mp3 is owned by a consortia of *nice people*
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:52:34) ompaul: that is only one of the codecs
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:52:37) Ivaldi left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[09:10] <raphink> ok
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:52:50) ompaul: wmv - licence that from the doze people --- hmmm
[09:10] <sorush20> (18:52:56) ompaul: and so on
[09:10] <raphink> sorush20: please don't do that
[09:10] <seth> zoy
[09:10] <jpatrick> sorush20: ok, please don't do that
[09:10] <raphink> sorush20: we've got an agenda, please add your points after we've gone through it
[09:10] <raphink> now
[09:11] <raphink> Tonio has been working quite hard on Kubuntu default settings lately
[09:11] <raphink> trying to work on every detail to make it usable out-of-the-box very easily
[09:11] <raphink> he's given me a list of proposals and questions to ask tonight
[09:11] <raphink> since he can't make it for technical reasons
[09:11] <raphink> the first point is about double-click
[09:11] <raphink> all recent operating systems use double-click to open files and folders
[09:12] <apachelogger> KDE doesn't
[09:12] <raphink> this can be set in KDE very easily but default is still simple one
[09:12] <Snake__> Oh man...keep the single click
[09:12] <apachelogger> yeah
[09:12] <Riddell> too big a change from KDE defaults
[09:12] <raphink> how many of you use simple click?
[09:12] <Riddell> we'd have the whole of KDE after us if we changed that
[09:12] <apachelogger> I do
[09:12] <Psi-Jack> I use double-click myself.
[09:12] <seth> <-- double
[09:12] <Snake__> I use single click.
[09:12] <incinerator> keep the single klick or use a setup wizard to ask the user upon first startup....
[09:12] <Snake__> incinerator: Thats a idea.
[09:12] <jjesse> can't we ask the user
[09:12] <Riddell> no startup wizards!
[09:12] <incinerator> quite annoying krusader using double click and everything else single click
[09:13] <Hobbsee> with a skip button!
[09:13] <sorush20> I think we have to make the user aware of the situation the first time he or she logs into kubuntu, how about with an  animations.. ? 
[09:13] <Psi-Jack> KDE itself, already has a Startup wizard.
[09:13] <incinerator> kde comes with a startup wizard....
[09:13] <raphink> incinerator: there is a setup wizzard existing, but it's quite hard to tune in such a short time.
[09:13] <incinerator> i know
[09:13] <seth> if you guys haven't noticed, we patch *out* all startup wizards
[09:13] <seth> we don't want to ADD startup wizards
[09:13] <seth> :P
[09:13] <incinerator> then please keep the single click
[09:13] <jpatrick> SimplifyKDE kills the wizards and KTip things
[09:13] <Psi-Jack> seth: Yes. I know. Quite annoying if I say so myself.
[09:13] <Snake__> seth: start-up wizards are never that bad, when you can skip them.
[09:13] <Riddell> startup wizards (and tip of the day etc) go against simplicity
[09:13] <incinerator> it's easy to notice the changed behaviour....
[09:13] <seth> I would argue that good defaults >>> startup wizard
[09:14] <incinerator> Riddell: fair enough, I agree to that
[09:14] <Riddell> the whole point of kubuntu-default-dsettings is we pick decent settings and go with them
[09:14] <raphink> yes
[09:14] <raphink> I agree with you Riddell 
[09:14] <raphink> I don't want a wizard either
[09:14] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: THAT I can agree with too, however.
[09:14] <sorush20> how about having a button on konqueror or desktop toolbar to change from single click to double and back/??
[09:14] <jpatrick> something sane
[09:14] <Riddell> the kde first run wizard has been removed upstream anyway, mostly based on kubuntu as justification
[09:14] <incinerator> keep the single click then, it's not that the user won't notice anyways....
[09:14] <raphink> the point though is that (K)Ubuntu is a distribution aimed to users coming mostly from mac/windows
[09:14] <wincide> hi all
[09:14] <Snake__> Why go to double click though? Just out of curiosity?
[09:14] <raphink> and used to double click by default
[09:14] <incinerator> mac does use double click?
[09:14] <incinerator> bah
[09:15] <jpatrick> Snake__: takes twice as long
[09:15] <raphink> yes
[09:15] <incinerator> raphink: doesn't make it the right thing to do
[09:15] <apachelogger> raphink: so loose a main thing of KDE identity for that?
[09:15] <raphink> all modern interfaces use double click by default except kde
[09:15] <incinerator> single click is way more intuitive and less a hassle for disabled people....
[09:15] <Riddell> double click is confusing to people new to computers, I've seen that lots
[09:15] <Psi-Jack> Snake__: So you don't have to hold CTRL single-click to highlight a file.
[09:15] <apokryphos> single-click is the way to go I think -- most usability arguments tend to side on that way
[09:15] <Riddell> (it also makes selection a lot harder of course)
[09:15] <sorush20> lets say you want to be able to find out the properties of a file when you single click on it it opens it rather than just highlight it.. 
[09:15] <Hobbsee> it doesnt seem like we get *that* many questions in #kubuntu on how to change it - so people are finding that they can either live with it, or figure out how to change it themselves.
[09:16] <jpatrick> yes
[09:16] <seth> Hobbsee +1, I think it's really a moot point
[09:16] <Snake__> I've been around #kubuntu a while, and I havn't seen to much complaining either
[09:16] <wincide> greetings for the plasma kicker.. it's very nice , i've installed that with baghira :D
[09:16] <raphink> good point Hobbsee 
[09:16] <Riddell> yep
[09:16] <Hobbsee> :D yay!
[09:16] <raphink> ok
[09:16] <raphink> shall we make a quick vote?
[09:16] <Psi-Jack> Sure. :)\
[09:16] <sorush20> raphink: yes how you going to make that/ 
[09:16] <Snake__> +1 to Single Click
[09:17] <raphink> I'm hearing points of view from different sides so just to be sure I'm hearing more simple-click ones
[09:17] <jpatrick> I think it's settled
[09:17] <apachelogger> yo
[09:17] <jjesse> +1 single click
[09:17] <Hobbsee> +1 single click
[09:17] <Riddell> no votes, but we can take a poll
[09:17] <apachelogger> +1 single click
[09:17] <robotgeek> +1 single click
[09:17] <raphink> +1 double click
[09:17] <incinerator> +1 single click
[09:17] <jpatrick> Riddell: where?
[09:17] <Riddell> +1 single click
[09:17] <raphink> ok
[09:17] <Riddell> jpatrick: here :)
[09:17] <jpatrick> +1 single click
[09:17] <seth> +1 single click (just because it's the default, no rocking the boat)
[09:17] <wincide> double click ++ 
[09:17] <Snake__> Seems single click wins :)
[09:17] <Psi-Jack> I think it's unanymous.
[09:17] <raphink> there that's clear enough :)
[09:17] <Psi-Jack> sp?
[09:17] <jpatrick> single wins!
[09:17] <incinerator> 2 nay, rest ayes
[09:17] <Hobbsee> good, next point
[09:17] <raphink> let's move to next point then
[09:17] <raphink> which is the fonts
[09:18] <sorush20> Psi-Jack: is there anyother way we could vote on a a website? 
[09:18] <raphink> many people complain the default fonts are too big
[09:18] <incinerator> voting by irc bot?
[09:18] <jpatrick> ...or too small
[09:18] <Riddell> people also complain they are too small :)
[09:18] <sorush20> also shouldn't the vote be put though to all the kubuntu users? 
[09:18] <raphink> jpatrick: 
[09:18] <seth> that's one of the first things I change when I get a fresh Kubuntu
[09:18] <raphink> jpatrick: yes
[09:18] <Psi-Jack> sorush20: Heh, sure. If you got a site or something with even a sinple voting boot. :p
[09:18] <Snake__> You can't blame that though, wouldn't that be their resolutions fault?
[09:18] <wincide> i have a laptop with 1280x800 and i've set the fons to 10
[09:18] <Riddell> the minimum font size in konqueror definatly needs changed from current dapper (7)
[09:18] <raphink> tonio proposes to set the dpi to 100 and use either 8 or 9 
[09:18] <robotgeek> is there any way to detect screen size, it's too big on my 12 inch ibook, perfect on monitor
[09:18] <seth> I'm on 1680 x 1050, 100dpi and I use 8pt (10pt for window titles)
[09:19] <Psi-Jack> A font size of 12 is definately gargantuant.
[09:19] <raphink> are there people using 100 dpi and what do you think of such a size ?
[09:19] <Hobbsee> i was using 9 with 100 dpi and that worked preety well - 1024x768
[09:19] <jpatrick> I like mine at 9
[09:19] <Snake__> robotgeek: agreed....its to big on 800x600, but to small on higher ones
[09:19] <incinerator> screen size detection can be tricky, and preferences differ
[09:19] <Riddell> we will never get font sizer exactly correct since it depends on people's eyesight
[09:19] <incinerator> i'd second making the fonts a wee bit bigger, particularly on laptops
[09:19] <Snake__> Riddell: and their resolution...
[09:19] <luka74> my autodetected DPI is 145 - and fonts are HUGE
[09:19] <Psi-Jack> At 1280x1024, I use a font size of 8, average. 7 for things like the taskbar.
[09:19] <Riddell> Snake__: exactly
[09:19] <sealne> and how far away they like their monitors
[09:19] <incinerator> if it's to big, you'll make it smaller, if it's to small you can't read a thing, again, disabled....
[09:20] <luka74> I manually set DPI to 120 (or 100) to make it look nice
[09:20] <incinerator> ^vision impaired people
[09:20] <raphink> ok
[09:20] <Riddell> gnome sets the Xft font size to 96
[09:20] <sorush20> I think the font size is good enough really its easy enought to change
[09:20] <raphink> tonio proposes to set the dpi forced to 100  in kdmrc
[09:20] <Riddell> if we can find a way to do the same we could try that out
[09:20] <raphink> and set the fonts to 8 or 9
[09:20] <Riddell> dpi rather, not font size
[09:20] <seth> Hobbsee, I've seen a lot more complaints about fonts than about clicking
[09:21] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I mostly get complains about KDE and gnome being different (even if you set the point sizes the same)
[09:21] <Hobbsee> seth: ah, they must not be while i'm on then
[09:21] <raphink> seth: indeed, people complain a lot about fonts
[09:21] <raphink> and it seems the only good option is to force dpi=100
[09:21] <jpatrick> welcome amu 
[09:21] <amu> moin
[09:21] <allee> DPI are a well defined.  We should get it right and let people use kcontrol center to change it
[09:21] <Hobbsee> very true - same with xfce
[09:21] <luka74> Hobbsee: system settings is not good enough - as many aps have own font setting
[09:21] <allee> it is pt size of fonts not dpi  ;)
[09:21] <Psi-Jack> Hmmm.
[09:21] <sorush20> are you guys voting? 
[09:21] <sorush20> +1 keep the font size 
[09:21] <seth> raphink, dpi right now is very hard to change (have to edit kdmrc with an arcane option), so I am in favor of bumping to 100 dpi by default, and then letting font sizes do the rest
[09:21] <Riddell> I don't want the X server DPI set, that's messing with too much stuff, we should try setting the Xft DPI so we match gnome
[09:21] <luka74> lots of manual config is required and not "it-looks-good-by-default" (tm) Kubuntu
[09:21] <incinerator> Riddell +1
[09:22] <raphink> ok
[09:22] <raphink> let's vote
[09:22] <raphink> who is for changing the dpi to 100 by default in kdmrc ?
[09:22] <seth> hang on
[09:22] <Riddell> raphink: wait
[09:22] <allee> seth: don't touch kdmrc use kontrolcenter
[09:22] <raphink> Riddell: ok
[09:22] <Riddell> firstly, it's 96 not 100 that gnome uses
[09:22] <seth> what is the difference between setting the Xft DPI and the X server DPI
[09:22] <Riddell> so we should stick to that
[09:22] <atie> please don't forget gnome uses 96dpi, many people want to match size between kde and gnome.
[09:22] <allee> -dpi --
[09:22] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Why stick to that?
[09:23] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: because part of the problem is that gnome and kde font sizes are different
[09:23] <Riddell> including firefox
[09:23] <Psi-Jack> Hmmm.
[09:23] <Psi-Jack> That actually is a very good point. VERY good.
[09:23] <Hobbsee> if we could get them to be the same, that's probably worth doing
[09:23] <Riddell> so people set the point sizes the same but they end up with different fonts
[09:23] <Snake__> Why are we matching ourselves to gnome? Let's lead, not follow....find what looks good and use it.
[09:23] <allee> atie: that KDE gets it right compared to windows and gnome is a big plus for KDE
[09:23] <raphink> most people don't want to consider that they have some apps from the gnome world and some from the kde one
[09:23] <Snake__> I havn't used gnome, so I dont know how the fonts look, but if they look right, then use it.
[09:23] <Riddell> and when they log into the other desktop environment the sizes are wrong again
[09:24] <allee> raphink: then set gnome dpi to the right value when in a KDE session
[09:24] <Riddell> allee: KDE may get it right but the monitors may not :)
[09:24] <raphink> I'm in favor of following what GNOME has
[09:24] <atie> allee, kde is in advance to follow X setting, but in case need to match with gnome
[09:24] <Riddell> so we need to find out how to set hte Xft DPI size and try that
[09:24] <Riddell> which is following what gnome has
[09:24] <allee> Riddell: xorg driver fault. 
[09:24] <Psi-Jack> Yep. Even Firefox offers 72dpi and 92dpi
[09:24] <wincide> i have to leave
[09:24] <Psi-Jack> 96 even
[09:24] <wincide> see you :D
[09:24] <raphink> bye wincide 
[09:25] <raphink> ok
[09:25] <raphink> let's try to see what options we have
[09:25] <allee> Riddell: DisplaySize x-in-mm y-in-mm  in Monitor section # if autodetection of driver fails
[09:25] <Riddell> robotgeek: everyone gets it wrong, it's a case of getting it consistent so once it's set it works everywhere
[09:25] <raphink> a) keep it as it is
[09:25] <Tm_T> sorry I'm late (prolly doesn't matter much)
[09:25] <raphink> b) set the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
[09:25] <sorush20> I think font size isn't very important 
[09:25] <Psi-Jack> Shoot, X standards, used 72dpi and 100dpi, but 100dpi is actually non-standard /everywhere/ else.
[09:25] <Snake__> Riddell: +1
[09:25] <raphink> c) set our own dpi and fonts
[09:25] <robotgeek> Riddell: okay
[09:25] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: interesting
[09:25] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Yes. exactly. ;)
[09:26] <allee> Psi-Jack: that are bitmap fonts relicts
[09:26] <sorush20> howabout making  an iRC client that allows fast voting system ? 
[09:26] <Snake__> sorush20: .....
[09:26] <Riddell> any volunteers for investigating how to change the xft DPI?
[09:26] <seth> sorush20, please *stop*
[09:26] <raphink> sorush20: yeah, do that for next meeting
[09:26] <Riddell> I volunteer tonio to do it :)
[09:26] <apachelogger> hehe
[09:26] <atie> Psi-Jack, 75 dpi and 100 dpi
[09:26] <Snake__> Heh
[09:26] <Hobbsee> hehe
[09:26] <raphink> Tonio is already volunteer for it
[09:27] <sorush20> I don't know any programing but will learn before I idie..  
[09:27] <Riddell> raphink: yeah, but this goes beyond setting stuff and involves working out how to talk to xft
[09:27] <Riddell> which may be trivial, or may not, I've no idea
[09:27] <incinerator> wiki's up again byraway
[09:27] <raphink> yes Riddell 
[09:27] <robotgeek> i have done something similiar before, so i'm game
[09:27] <Snake__> So shall we vote?
[09:27] <atie> Riddell, that's in .Xdefaults
[09:27] <Riddell> robotgeek: great :)  it means looking through gnome-settings-daemon to see how it does it
[09:27] <Snake__> Or did we and I missed it? :)
[09:27] <sorush20> Snake__: yes
[09:27] <raphink> Snake__: yes let's vote
[09:27] <raphink> so here are the choices I see
[09:27] <incinerator> +1 Ridell's xft
[09:28] <raphink> a) keep the current settings
[09:28] <Snake__> B I guess.
[09:28] <Psi-Jack> What are the deciding factors?
[09:28] <allee> I'll offer to write a Wiki about dpi and fonts size.
[09:28] <Riddell> +1 b) where b means working out how to set xft's DPI
[09:28] <raphink> b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
[09:28] <raphink> c) setting our own dpi
[09:28] <Snake__> +1 b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
[09:28] <raphink> any other option ?
[09:28] <seth> +1 xft, sounds the most reasonable
[09:28] <incinerator> +1 b)
[09:28] <sorush20> I think its trivial 
[09:28] <apachelogger> +1 b)
[09:28] <Psi-Jack> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/KubuntuMeetings.html
[09:28] <raphink> +1 b too
[09:28] <Psi-Jack> Ack.
[09:28] <Tm_T> +1 b
[09:29] <Psi-Jack> +1 b  here. Because KDE uses fontconfig explicitely. 
[09:29] <amu> c. ...  who cares about others env :)  
[09:29] <Psi-Jack> It's only natural to use fontconfig FULLY.
[09:29] <Hobbsee> +1 b
[09:29] <raphink> ok
[09:29] <luka74> +1 b
[09:29] <allee> I'm confused:  2 b)
[09:29] <jpatrick> +1 c
[09:29] <allee> [21:28]  <Riddell> +1 b) where b means working out how to set xft's DPI
[09:29] <Snake__> amu: Thats what I said, but there is a good point when they say going from Gnome to KDE and back
[09:29] <Riddell> sorush20 and robotgeek talk to tonio about getting that done
[09:29] <raphink> so the majority is b = using GNOME's default = 96dpi, using xft
[09:29] <allee> 21:28]  <Snake__> +1 b) modify the dpi to fit with gnome's settings
[09:29] <incinerator> ack
[09:29] <raphink> all right
[09:30] <raphink> I'm sorry I have so many of Tonio's points to bring here
[09:30] <raphink> and we still have a lot to go on the agenda
[09:30] <amu> Snake__: doesnt matter, we are an kubuntu desktop, eveyone should use KDE allps 
[09:30] <incinerator> go ahead then
[09:30] <amu> allps/apps
[09:30] <incinerator> amu: bah
[09:30] <raphink> but this is a work that has to be done before the 23rd
[09:30] <raphink> next point is with tabs
[09:30] <Snake__> amu: thats limiting ourselves. Thats not something I feel like doing
[09:30] <incinerator> if you do a qt version of firefox, ok
[09:30] <raphink> tabs in konversation first, that are in the bottom by default
[09:30] <raphink> although in all other apps, they are on the top
[09:30] <incinerator> as in ksirc
[09:30] <Snake__> raphink: is this really a problem?
[09:30] <Snake__> .....
[09:30] <amu> Snake__: is there something what kde not have, gnome have? 
[09:30] <incinerator> ksirc has them on the bottom
[09:31] <incinerator> no
[09:31] <Psi-Jack> Tabs?
[09:31] <raphink> Snake__: I don't think so, but Tonio does
[09:31] <raphink> so to make it quick
[09:31] <Tm_T> I like to have tabs in bottom when imputline is on the bottom too
[09:31] <Riddell> kubuntu-default-settings changes the konsole default from bottom to top (to match konqueror)
[09:31] <raphink> a) keep it to the bottom
[09:31] <seth> Tm_T ++++++
[09:31] <raphink> b) change it to the top
[09:31] <Hobbsee> i agree with Tm_T 
[09:31] <apachelogger> +1 a)
[09:31] <Snake__> +1 A
[09:31] <jpatrick> +1 a
[09:31] <seth> input box + tabs = nice easy area to do all the work in
[09:31] <Hobbsee> +25 A!
[09:31] <incinerator> unified key shortcuts to navigate the tabes would be much more important....
[09:31] <Tm_T> +1 a
[09:31] <seth> +1 a
[09:31] <Riddell> rationale for bottom is as Tm_T says
[09:31] <robotgeek> +1 a
[09:31] <raphink> a
[09:31] <incinerator> c) unchanged
[09:31] <amu> b
[09:31] <raphink> ok
[09:32] <Psi-Jack> +1 a definately. 
[09:32] <allee> + b keep at top
[09:32] <raphink> a in majority :)
[09:32] <seth> while we're on tabs
[09:32] <raphink> without a doubt
[09:32] <Psi-Jack> I move Konsole's tab to the bottom everytime, myself. :)
[09:32] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: you cheater
[09:32] <seth> let's talk about Kopete's tabs real fast
[09:32] <Hobbsee> hehe
[09:32] <seth> Kopete should mimic Konversation's tab shortcuts
[09:32] <raphink> yes seth that was my next point
[09:32] <seth> we need sane defaults for those
[09:32] <seth> ah, okay :)
[09:32] <Riddell> kopete has tabs?
[09:32] <Snake__> Ahh yes
[09:32] <raphink> kopete should have tabs by default
[09:32] <Tm_T> Riddell: yes!
[09:32] <Psi-Jack> Browser tabs, and application tabs I consider two different things.
[09:32] <jpatrick> Riddell: yes
[09:32] <robotgeek> raphink: +1
[09:32] <Hobbsee> +1 Riddell 
[09:32] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: yes. :)
[09:32] <jpatrick> multiple chats
[09:32] <raphink> this is necessary
[09:32] <raphink> we need that
[09:32] <robotgeek> it's a big pain
[09:32] <Tm_T> +1 tabs
[09:32] <raphink> people begin to use gaim to get tabs
[09:33] <raphink> because they don't know they get tabs in kopete
[09:33] <raphink> tonio wants to put tabs by default in kopete
[09:33] <Snake__> I use my tabs, its should be default
[09:33] <seth> ALT + {Left, Right} should be used to switch b/t tabs in Kopete, just like Konversation
[09:33] <raphink> putting the "all conversations in one window" option on by default
[09:33] <jpatrick> read the handbook!
[09:33] <robotgeek> it's 3 mouslicks away, and i did not find anything to set tabs on (rightaway)
[09:33] <raphink> a) keep it in different windows
[09:33] <seth> I actually have a bug open for this on bugs.kde.org
[09:33] <atie> Xft.dpi:96 is answer.
[09:33] <raphink> b) use tabs by default in kopete
[09:33] <atie> I'd like to add one more point font size for user and root shoud be same.
[09:33] <Snake__> raphink: I would put the "All Conversations from same account" as default
[09:33] <raphink> :)
[09:33] <atie> s/shoud/should
[09:34] <raphink> ok then
[09:34] <raphink> here are the choices
[09:34] <Riddell> atie: they are by default
[09:34] <Tm_T> Snake__: yes, that's best
[09:34] <robotgeek> +1 b, please
[09:34] <raphink> a) keep conversations in different windows
[09:34] <raphink> b) gather all the conversations in one window with tabs
[09:34] <raphink> c) gather all conversatiosn from one account in one window with tabs
[09:34] <sorush20> yes tabs by default is a good idea 
[09:34] <raphink> let's vote
[09:34] <jpatrick> +1 b
[09:34] <Snake__> +1 C
[09:34] <seth> +1 B
[09:34] <atie> Riddell, I am sorry, I'm watching wiki
[09:34] <Tm_T> +1 c
[09:34] <seth> C is confusing for new users
[09:34] <Hobbsee> +1 b
[09:34] <luka74> +1 b
[09:34] <robotgeek> +1 b
[09:34] <raphink> +b
[09:34] <incinerator> +1 b
[09:34] <Tm_T> (to keep irc separate)
[09:34] <seth> they don't want to know about their different "accounts"
[09:35] <Riddell> +1 b (although I haven't tried it so may change my mind)
[09:35] <Psi-Jack> +1 b
[09:35] <Hobbsee> cant see why you'd bother with c - all or nothing - that's why they dont have a separate client for each service
[09:35] <allee> b) ++
[09:35] <sorush20> +1 b
[09:35] <raphink> any more votes?
[09:35] <sorush20> does my vote count? 
[09:35] <raphink> ok
[09:35] <Riddell> sorush20: sure
[09:35] <raphink> b in majority :)
[09:35] <Riddell> but it's not a vote, just a poll
[09:35] <raphink> that's a great enhancement imo :)
[09:35] <Tm_T> b is fine
[09:35] <raphink> sure sorush20 
[09:35] <Riddell> no binding decisions are made
[09:35] <raphink> let's move on again
[09:35] <Riddell> (I like to be able to back out :)
[09:35] <Psi-Jack> I say B, because, people are looking for tabbed IM, already. It's good to show them Kopete has it. :)
[09:35] <raphink> let's move on to .... moodin!
[09:35] <jpatrick> like tab browsering
[09:35] <Snake__> Moodin?
[09:36] <raphink> tonio proposes to get moodin in main 
[09:36] <jpatrick> my package!!
[09:36] <Hobbsee> what's moodlin?
[09:36] <Riddell> poke pitti!
[09:36] <Psi-Jack> moodin? 
[09:36] <robotgeek> moodin is great!
[09:36] <Snake__> Someone update me on moodin?
[09:36] <Snake__> lol
[09:36] <raphink> and get the nice kubuntu splash by default
[09:36] <jpatrick> ksplash-engine-moodin
[09:36] <raphink> moodin is a ksplash engine
[09:36] <jpatrick> and I find a nice theme for it
[09:36] <Riddell> it's been in main inclusion review for over a month
[09:36] <Psi-Jack> Yes. I'm using moodin for splash, with the hand-print. :)
[09:36] <Psi-Jack> It's pretty spiffy.
[09:36] <raphink> that allows to have very nice smooth ksplash 
[09:36] <Snake__> Hmm
[09:36] <raphink> Riddell: ok
[09:36] <Snake__> Why not add it?
[09:36] <Tm_T> ok
[09:36] <Hobbsee> any prettier ksplash than the one we has sounds good!
[09:36] <Hobbsee> *has/have
[09:36] <raphink> Riddell: does it have a chance to be in in a week?
[09:36] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: a lot prettier
[09:37] <Riddell> raphink: damn well better be
[09:37] <raphink> so I guess this is unanimity for moodin
[09:37] <raphink> Riddell: ok :)
[09:37] <incinerator> i'd just wish i could turn off kde splash completetly
[09:37] <Psi-Jack> Moodin is good, and all. HOWEVER:
[09:37] <raphink> do you all know what the kubuntu moodin theme is ?
[09:37] <Psi-Jack> If kubuntu is going to use moodin by default for splash, it should be made to look good, and professional in quality, IMHO>
[09:37] <pitti> hi
[09:38] <jpatrick> I'm already at kde-look
[09:38] <Tm_T> pitti: true
[09:38] <Riddell> ooh pitti, we were just talking about you :)
[09:38] <jpatrick> hello pitti just the man we want
[09:38] <Tm_T> Psi-Jack: true
[09:38] <robotgeek> Psi-Jack: yes, there are great themes for it
[09:38] <Psi-Jack> robotgeek: I mean Kubuntu-specific. :)
[09:38] <pitti> what's up?
[09:38] <raphink> jpatrick: can you get it please?
[09:38] <Psi-Jack> Something that shows Kubuntu off.
[09:38] <raphink> oh I got it
[09:38] <jpatrick> raphink: IU am
[09:38] <Snake__> Well why not add it. Throw it in, it won't hurt :)
[09:38] <raphink> ok
[09:38] <incinerator> link pls
[09:38] <Riddell> pitti: people are getting frustrated at ksplash-moodin not being in main yet is all
[09:38] <raphink> this is the theme we want : http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29426
[09:38] <sorush20> yes moodin is infomative and personal cause it sys your user name.. 
[09:38] <raphink> it used to have a bad license, now it's under GPL
[09:38] <jjesse> sorry i had to leave
[09:38] <incinerator> look nice
[09:39] <incinerator> ^looks nice
[09:39] <Riddell> pitti: and it could do with being done soon so we can get our artwork sorted out
[09:39] <raphink> please have a look at the link
[09:39] <jpatrick> thanks to me
[09:39] <Hobbsee> loading...loading...
[09:39] <raphink> jpatrick: yep :)
[09:39] <Snake__> Looks good to me
[09:39] <Tm_T> raphink: oh, lot better than breezy splash!
[09:39] <Snake__> Thats pretty
[09:39] <robotgeek> raphink: yep, that;s the one i am using
[09:39] <Psi-Jack> BRB. Need to blend me a Frappuccino real quick. 
[09:39] <Hobbsee> looks nice :)
[09:39] <Snake__> Ill vote that in
[09:39] <sorush20> how about adding 3d effect to moodi? would be very cool 
[09:39] <raphink> everyone agree on trying to get this used by default?
[09:39] <pitti> Riddell: oh, I wasn't awaere that you need it, let alone that it's urgent
[09:39] <Tm_T> apacheLAGger: snowy, son?
[09:39] <Snake__> raphink: I do
[09:40] <Riddell> raphink: that theme is great but canonical are getting some professional artwork done so we may have to combine the two
[09:40] <raphink> sorush20: let's wait for dapper+1 for Xgl by default ;)
[09:40] <jpatrick> matching KDM!! http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29331
[09:40] <pitti> Riddell: I planned a couple of main inclusion reports tomorrow morning anyway
[09:40] <Psi-Jack> D'oh! I forgot to turn the coffee maker on. :/
[09:40] <Tm_T> raphink: +999 to it =)
[09:40] <raphink> Riddell: ok
[09:40] <Tm_T> jpatrick: that in too!
[09:40] <raphink> great :)
[09:40] <Psi-Jack> raphink: I think it should be made available default, ONLY IF, Kubuntu has a customized theme for it.
[09:40] <raphink> let's move on again to an app that I think is not so famous yet ... knemo
[09:40] <sorush20> raphink: have you voted yet .. I vote for it to be default .. 
[09:40] <apacheLAGger> Tm_T: always
[09:40] <Riddell> pitti: it's not super urgent, but it does need to be done before artwork freeze
[09:40] <Snake__> Knemo??
[09:40] <jpatrick> pitti: report :: http://wiki.kubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportKSplashMoodin
[09:41] <Tm_T> jpatrick: uses old/new kubuntu logo?
[09:41] <raphink> yep
[09:41] <ogra> Riddell, which is still far out 
[09:41] <Riddell> ogra: yep
[09:41] <raphink> sorry got too fast
[09:41] <raphink> hehe
[09:41] <pitti> Riddell, jpatrick: alright, will do tomorrow morning
[09:41] <Riddell> excellent :)
[09:42] <jpatrick> great :)
[09:42] <raphink> sorush20: I've considered this was a global acceptation without anyone complaining, no need for a poll
[09:42] <raphink> ok
[09:42] <raphink> let's move
[09:42] <raphink> to knemo
[09:42] <Snake__> raphink: Perhaps look into that KDM as well
[09:42] <jpatrick> those themes are professional
[09:42] <Riddell> pitti: Keep is the other package we'd love to have in soonish, but I don't want to take up all your main review time :)
[09:42] <raphink> for the ones who do not know knemo
[09:42] <raphink> this is a small applet for kicker
[09:42] <raphink> that monitors your network interfaces
[09:42] <Psi-Jack> Heh.. I don't use really ANY kicker applets.
[09:43] <raphink> you give it the name of the interface, as listed in ifconfig, and it puts a nice small icon in the bar
[09:43] <raphink> to monitor the traffice, IP, etc.
[09:43] <Snake__> Arn't there enough karambas for this?
[09:43] <Tm_T> raphink: aye, I installed it once, had _big_ problems when trying to remove it
[09:43] <Tm_T> raphink: prolly fixed though =)
[09:43] <apachelogger> Snake__: quite different
[09:43] <raphink> knemo looks quite a lot like the network monitory for windows
[09:43] <Hobbsee> raphink: that'd be cool, and not everyone wants to run karamba
[09:43] <Snake__> Ohhhh
[09:43] <Psi-Jack> And as a matter, I would vote to keep kicker applets down to a minimum. We do not want that kicker being overflooded with potentially useless applets.
[09:43] <raphink> a blinking icon in the taskbar
[09:44] <raphink> Hobbsee: exactly
[09:44] <luka74> I would not introduce knemo since knetworkmanager will come sooner than later
[09:44] <incinerator> Hobsee +1
[09:44] <Riddell> related to this is that network manager won't get into dapper (gnome or KDE)
[09:44] <Snake__> Hobbsee: +111
[09:44] <luka74> knemo is just reporting, while knetworkmanager alows some rela actions
[09:44] <apachelogger> http://rosenberg.homelinux.net/wordpress/wp-content/knemo.png
[09:44] <Hobbsee> can we get some packages for knetworkmanager please???  *shows puppy dog eyes at Riddell* - just stick them on your server unofficially?
[09:44] <Riddell> but I expect network manager to be in for dapper + 1
[09:44] <raphink> luka74: right, so far
[09:45] <Riddell> Hobbsee: not from me, it needs 3 different things packaged 
[09:45] <Riddell> problems with knemo are 1) yet another kicker applet
[09:45] <Riddell> and 1) last time I tried it took a lot of manual setup
[09:45] <Snake__> Riddell: As far as I can see, you can't have enough of those :)
[09:45] <Riddell> err, that was 2) :)
[09:45] <raphink> hehe
[09:45] <Psi-Jack> What is the poposition for knemo? To include it in kubuntu-desktop to pull it in, or make it applied as a kicker applet default?
[09:45] <Hobbsee> hehe - Riddell cant count
[09:45] <Tm_T> Riddell: what's third 1) ?
[09:46] <Snake__> Psi-Jack: I think to add it
[09:46] <Riddell> hay, I'm in my cupboard here, don't even have a desk to type on
[09:46] <raphink> Psi-Jack: Tonio's proposition is to get it in main to include it by default
[09:46] <luka74> I am using it currently (testing) and I do not see much value (just using some kicker real estate)
[09:46] <allee> knemo has custom menues, and they can be set by us
[09:46] <Psi-Jack> Snake__: To which ? There's two things I just said, it could be added to. :p
[09:46] <raphink> Tonio provided a knemorc file to set it right by default
[09:46] <Tm_T> Riddell: atleast you do have a cupboard ;)
[09:46] <raphink> that works
[09:46] <Snake__> Psi-Jack: Ah hehe, to kubuntu-desktop...I dont want it on my kicker by default
[09:46] <raphink> ok
[09:46] <Riddell> raphink: any idea if tonio managed to get it working out the box?
[09:46] <Psi-Jack> raphink: Include it for kubuntu-desktop? Hmmm.. That /might/ not be so bad. 
[09:47] <Snake__> I would like to have it ACESSIBLE and INCLUDED but not on kicker by default
[09:47] <incinerator> i think it has some benefits for new users, particularly diagnosis when net's not working
[09:47] <Hobbsee> there's already an applet for network settings - rather weird though
[09:47] <raphink> Riddell: yes he did from what he told me
[09:47] <Psi-Jack> I'm going to install knemo, right now.
[09:47] <incinerator> as an intermediate solution until knetworkmanager gets into main, good idea
[09:47] <raphink> Riddell: and sent you the knemorc
[09:47] <Tm_T> I'd say no knemo for default
[09:47] <allee> raphink: sent to kubunt-devel
[09:47] <Riddell> raphink: he sent me a load of things but then said to wait because he was working on something
[09:48] <Riddell> if we get it working out the box, we then need a volunteer for the main inclusion report
[09:48] <Hobbsee> well, can we make knemo easy enough to add, yet not have it there running by default?
[09:48] <raphink> Riddell: as part of the latest kubuntu-default-settings he sent was the knemorc that works
[09:48] <jpatrick> Riddell: I have experience in that field
[09:48] <robotgeek> raphink: it reads from /etc/network/interfaces ?
[09:48] <raphink> sure Hobbsee taht's an option
[09:48] <Psi-Jack> knemo is a kicker applet, right?
[09:48] <Riddell> justification for knemo is that ubuntu gnome does have a similar applet
[09:48] <Snake__> Hobbsee: If you right click kicker, under add applet, couldn't we just have it inthere?
[09:48] <raphink> robotgeek: I think it greps ifconfig 
[09:48] <apachelogger> Psi-Jack: http://rosenberg.homelinux.net/wordpress/wp-content/knemo.png
[09:48] <Snake__> if people want it
[09:48] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: +1 for that
[09:48] <raphink> Psi-Jack: yes
[09:49] <Psi-Jack> apachelogger: I'm looking at that now, and looking at my applet list, after just installing it.
[09:49] <raphink> ok
[09:49] <Snake__> Like the public file server, or quick launch?
[09:49] <raphink> sooo
[09:49] <raphink> here is what I propose
[09:49] <raphink> a) don't do anything with knemo
[09:49] <raphink> b) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and use it by default
[09:49] <raphink> c) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and don't use it by default
[09:49] <Snake__> +1 C
[09:49] <incinerator> +1 c
[09:49] <raphink> poll opened :)
[09:49] <apachelogger> +1 C
[09:49] <robotgeek> +1 b
[09:49] <Hobbsee> +1 c
[09:50] <Psi-Jack> +1 c
[09:50] <sealne> +1 c
[09:50] <jpatrick> +1 c
[09:50] <Riddell> +1 b I think, may go for C if too many people complain
[09:50] <raphink> +1 b
[09:50] <luka74> +1 c
[09:50] <sorush20> I can't vote since I haven't used and can't comment etc.. 
[09:50] <raphink> 3 
[09:50] <allee> +1 for b)  with only one icon as that has default route
[09:50] <raphink> 2
[09:50] <raphink> 1
[09:50] <Tm_T> +1 c
[09:50] <raphink> poll closed
[09:50] <sorush20> but if its is the esiest for the new users then 
[09:50] <raphink> :)
[09:50] <raphink> ok Tm_T you get it ;)
[09:50] <amu> b :)
[09:50] <Tm_T> aye
[09:50] <raphink> hehe
[09:50] <robotgeek> buzzer beater
[09:51] <raphink> I have to count for this one
[09:51] <raphink> we have a majority of c) set knemo in kubuntu-default-settings nicely and don't use it by default
[09:51] <raphink> so ok 
[09:51] <Snake__> Woot
[09:51] <raphink> b) and c) have the same requirements anyway
[09:51] <jpatrick> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportKNemo
[09:51] <raphink> which is to get knemo in main + set it in kubuntu-default-settings
[09:51] <raphink> then the difference is just in a dependency
[09:51] <Psi-Jack> raphink: BTW, I have some things I don't think are in the agenda, that I'd like to discuss more towards the closing. 
[09:51] <raphink> thanks jpatrick 
[09:52] <jpatrick> no problem
[09:52] <raphink> Psi-Jack: we'll discuss them in the end of the talk ok?
[09:52] <raphink> the _last_ of TOnio's point
[09:52] <Psi-Jack> raphink: That's kinda what I wanted. Yes. Thanks. ;)
[09:52] <raphink> then I'll let someone else talk for a bit
[09:52] <Riddell> "The program works with no configuration needed" yet to be proven :)
[09:52] <raphink> the last point is still about the fonts
[09:52] <raphink> on the desktop
[09:52] <jpatrick> whoops /me fixes
[09:52] <raphink> tonio would like to go back to the way fonts where in hoary on the desktop
[09:53] <raphink> that is : white with black around them
[09:53] <raphink> as they are now, it's impossible to use bright wallpapers 
[09:53] <raphink> without setting the fonts
[09:53] <Tm_T> ok
[09:53] <Snake__> Ah crap, I have something I would like to bring up, if there is time left, I didn't make it to the agenda either...its nothing big, but if we can fit them in
[09:53] <raphink> because they're white by default
[09:53] <raphink> it's easy to have they white with a bit of black around them
[09:53] <Riddell> Snake__: yes, at the end
[09:53] <Riddell> raphink: that's the kde default I think
[09:54] <Snake__> raphink: How about like the taskbar, when its set to transparent font?
[09:54] <raphink> + the fonts get dark when selected, so hard to see on a dark desktop either
[09:54] <jpatrick> (done)
[09:54] <raphink> Riddell: yes, and windows and mac os too
[09:54] <Riddell> so lets do that then
[09:54] <raphink> ok
[09:54] <Hobbsee> Snake__: and Psi-Jack: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings is back up, so why not add your points there for the end of the meeting?
[09:54] <raphink> votes ?
[09:54] <Snake__> Choices?
[09:54] <Snake__> :)
[09:54] <raphink> or do everyone agree on getting back to this default?
[09:54] <apachelogger> yup
[09:55] <Riddell> poll a) with border (KDE, hoary)  b) with shodow (breezy)
[09:55] <luka74> +1 a
[09:55] <Snake__> A
[09:55] <sorush20> how about giving the desktop fonts some intelegence so that it can decide on thresholds of colour and set it self accordingly... ? 
[09:55] <incinerator> +1 a)
[09:55] <apachelogger> +1 a
[09:55] <robotgeek> +1 a
[09:55] <raphink> a
[09:55] <raphink> ok thank you
[09:55] <Riddell> sorush20: way too complex sounding
[09:55] <Tm_T> a
[09:55] <Psi-Jack> Hobbsee: Mainly, because I'm trying to keep up with the meeting itself. And, my points, may be covered before the meeting is up or not. I don't know for certain. ;)
[09:55] <robotgeek> sorush20: that's a nice idea, but we are out of time
[09:55] <raphink> sorush20: wait for KDE 4 for such things ;)
[09:56] <raphink> ok
[09:56] <jpatrick> and other goodies
[09:56] <Hobbsee> nyah, lets just have a 2 hour meeting and be done with it :P
[09:56] <raphink> that was it for Tonio's point
[09:56] <Snake__> I'll brb while I add stuff to the agenda (I hope that its not just a bug on my desktop...I havn't consulted anyone else..)
[09:56] <raphink> an hour on the points of someone who is not here ;)
[09:56] <Riddell> any other default settings suggestions?
[09:56] <jpatrick> freeflying is sleeping now...
[09:56] <raphink> Riddell: that's about it for what tonio told me on the phone :)
[09:56] <luka74> raphink: can I ask now one related to default kubuntu-desktop's? (not on agenda) or wait until end?
[09:56] <Riddell> luka74: go
[09:57] <luka74> kpowersave vs. klaptop
[09:57] <Riddell> luka74: yes
[09:57] <Tm_T> Riddell: all default fonts are moved from bitstream to dejavu ?
[09:57] <Riddell> luka74: kpowersave uses a bunch of clever scripts
[09:57] <Snake__> I would like to ask something about the kubuntu desktop as well...if I may speak after this
[09:57] <sorush20> add recent documents opened to the kmenu by default and add the recent applications by default to the kmenu
[09:57] <Riddell> luka74: but ubuntu already has a better bunch of scripts and works through hal
[09:57] <luka74> I used kpowersave (Suse default) for a month and looks good (at least for hibernate)
[09:57] <Riddell> luka74: so I (or someone) needs to work out how to get kpowersave to just use hal + ubuntu scripts rather than the ones it comes with
[09:57] <apachelogger> yeah kpowersave still has some advantages
[09:58] <Riddell> but I don't want to use kpowersave with it's default scripts since then we end up with a bunch of different bugs from ubuntu
[09:58] <luka74> Riddell: OK, makes sense - maybe for Dapper+!
[09:58] <luka74> Dapper+1
[09:58] <Snake__> Alright, is this just me, or does anyone else'
[09:58] <Snake__> s icons on their desktop get moved around on boot up
[09:58] <Riddell> well if someone can change the scripts fast enough it could go into dapper
[09:59] <Riddell> Snake__: not me
[09:59] <Tm_T> Snake__: pre- 3.5 bug
[09:59] <raphink> Snake__: that is not a feature
[09:59] <jpatrick> we have one week
[09:59] <raphink> Snake__: we're discussing features :)
[09:59] <apachelogger> Tm_T: actually I think it's pre-3.5.1
[09:59] <raphink> jpatrick: +1
[09:59] <Snake__> raphink: :) good point, thanks
[09:59] <Snake__> :)
[09:59] <Psi-Jack> Okay, I'm back with my frappuccino. :)
[09:59] <Riddell> jpatrick: feature freeze?
[09:59] <Tm_T> apachelogger: might be =)
[09:59] <jpatrick> Riddell: yes
[09:59] <raphink> ok
[09:59] <luka74> Riddell: I can look quickly into this, but I do not promise anything (my first hacking with deb packages)
[10:00] <Snake__> Tm_T: I think hes right, because im on 3.5.1 and it still does it
[10:00] <Riddell> luka74: it's the scripts in /usr/lib/powersave rather than the deb that need changed
[10:00] <raphink> let's get to _second_ main point of the agenda lol
[10:00] <Tm_T> Snake__: I don't know, I dont have any icons in desktop
[10:00] <Riddell> anyone know who Nirvana is?
[10:00] <apachelogger> Snake__: maybe it's another bug you're talking about, coz aseigo fixed that some time ago
[10:00] <raphink> allee: do you want to talk about dpi more ?
[10:00] <luka74> OK, I will look into scripts and then ask somebody else to package if I manage to fix something
[10:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: a band
[10:00] <raphink> is nirvana around?
[10:01] <jpatrick> Riddell: big poster at the forums (Not here)
[10:01] <jpatrick> aprofl
[10:01] <raphink> apachelogger: that would be an answer to "was"
[10:01] <Riddell> I don't understand what his agenda item is
[10:01] <apachelogger> ah, right ;-)
[10:01] <apachelogger> sry
[10:01] <raphink> jpatrick: yeah and the automatix guy iirc
[10:01] <allee> raphink: not yet.  Maybe next meeting.  When I created a sort of About or HOWTO
[10:01] <raphink> ok good
[10:01] <jpatrick> apachelogger: rofl
[10:01] <raphink> so let's go for freeflying's point ?
[10:01] <Hobbsee> luka74: ping me if you need some help with packaging and i'll try to help :)
[10:01] <jpatrick> raphink: he is sleeping
[10:02] <luka74> Hobbsee: will do
[10:02] <raphink> he's not around but other people have given their opinion
[10:02] <raphink> jpatrick: do you want to express yourself on it
[10:02] <raphink> ?
[10:02] <jpatrick> I don't know really
[10:02] <jpatrick> let's skip and keep for next meeting?
[10:02] <raphink> ok
[10:02] <Riddell> so index-search project?
[10:02] <raphink> sure
[10:02] <sorush20> raphink: what is the second point on the adgenda
[10:02] <raphink> then it gets back to me
[10:02] <jpatrick> luka74: or any of the MOTU KDE
[10:03] <raphink> pipitas: are you still there?
[10:03] <jpatrick> klik devs?
[10:03] <Riddell> hi bfree, thanks for coming
[10:03] <raphink> ok pipitas is not around it seems
[10:03] <raphink> oh bfree you're here :)
[10:03] <raphink> ok good
[10:03] <Riddell> raphink: where are the klik packages at?
[10:03] <raphink> thanks for being here bfree :)
[10:03] <raphink> bfree: do you want to introduce klik to use ?
[10:04] <apachelogger> I pinged pipitas an hour before the meeting, no anwser
[10:04] <raphink> Riddell: I got the fuse ones in NEW today, that's the first step
[10:04] <Riddell> raphink: oh, wow, didn't know that
[10:04] <raphink> bfree: do you want to introduce klik for people who do not know it ?
[10:04] <bfree> raphink: what about fusecram and fuseiso?
[10:04] <raphink> bfree: packaged them today and got them in NEW 
[10:04] <Snake__> SO what is klik
[10:04] <raphink> ;)
[10:04] <raphink> that was my work this morning when I woke up ;)
[10:05] <ogra> Riddell, oh you want to switch from deb to autopackage ? 
[10:05] <pipitas> raphink: I'm back now
[10:05] <Riddell> ogra: no no :)
[10:05] <ogra> heh
[10:05] <bfree> klik.atekon.de ... a web based software installer which allows you to fetch deb packages extract and rework them into a portable filesystem image
[10:05] <raphink> ok I'll introduce the subject then :)
[10:05] <Riddell> ogra: but if we can have klik as a safe option for people, that's great
[10:05] <apachelogger> pipitas: we need a introduction what klik is and what it does
[10:05] <raphink> here is the idea
[10:05] <raphink> thanks bfree :)
[10:05] <ogra> Riddell, did you think about reworking gdebi instead ?
[10:05] <raphink> basically the idea is
[10:06] <Riddell> ogra: that's separate (yes we have)
[10:06] <raphink> many users always want to test new apps
[10:06] <raphink> without having to install dapper or a dapper chroot
[10:06] <Hobbsee> what does klik do about dependancies?  does it go to apt to get them?
[10:06] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: it's site
[10:06] <apachelogger> Hobbsee: it includes everyting
[10:06] <raphink> and backports are not the easiest thing to keep up-to-date and in good shape
[10:06] <Psi-Jack> Yikes.
[10:06] <bfree> it uses apt on the server to calculate the required dependencies
[10:06] <Hobbsee> right - must be huge files then
[10:06] <apachelogger> Hobbsee: or at least the stuff any distro might not have
[10:06] <Snake__> So, we just download the most up to date packaged we would want?
[10:06] <Hobbsee> gotcha
[10:07] <raphink> klik generates cmg packages that contain most required dependencies for the app
[10:07] <Psi-Jack> What what are we proposing about klik?
[10:07] <Riddell> so the koffice klik file includes the whole of koffice, kdelibs, qt, libstdc++ and all dependencies.  how big is that?
[10:07] <atie> bfree, curious, does klik still uses fstab to keep temp fs?
[10:07] <bfree> atie: that is where fuse comes in :-)
[10:07] <apachelogger> Riddell: well, at this point ... not libstdc++, not qt and probably also not kdelibs
[10:07] <pipitas> klik puts executable binaries and direct dependency libraries into its own self-containing filesystem hierarchy, compresses them into a file system image and uses a wrapper to mount that filesystem and run it
[10:08] <ogra> exactly ... thats what autopackage does
[10:08] <Snake__> Hmmm
[10:08] <Riddell> ah, so it still has binary compatibility issues with c++ and qt, fair enough
[10:08] <Tm_T> BTW might be slightly off-topic but is there any jobs to artwork team?
[10:08] <Snake__> Tm_T: Very offtopic :)
[10:08] <ogra> Riddell, more evil, i can put any kind of binarys in this packages ...
[10:08] <Riddell> Tm_T: ask at end
[10:08] <pipitas> klik is similar to what "AppDirs" were in NeXT and still are in Mac OS -- but it adds the compression and the "1 application == 1 file" idea and the web service to auto-build them from "real" packages
[10:08] <Tm_T> aye
[10:09] <sorush20> klik sound like a very good idea getting closer to source intall 
[10:09] <raphink> you might ask that to artwork team Tm_T 
[10:09] <Riddell> ogra: well security is the reson why I havn't touched it yet
[10:09] <ogra> yup
[10:09] <raphink> indeed
[10:09] <Riddell> so pipitas, bfree when I do klik:/koffice I presume that comes from 1 server?
[10:09] <Psi-Jack> What are we proposing for klik? To add it to an official apt repository or somethinh?
[10:09] <ogra> and why we havent even a autopackage package in ubunru yet
[10:09] <bfree> the dependencies klik puts into your final image depends on the packages it assumes are installed for your distribution ... so if a package requires something newer then the users base installed system would have it includes it when building the cmg (compressed filesystem image)
[10:09] <raphink> the idea is of course not to make it the default packaging system ;)
[10:09] <ogra> haha
[10:09] <atie> klik is worth to have as long as new svn packages provided, imo.
[10:10] <raphink> but it would prevent users from installing lots of unofficial packages around, messing their sources.list with trashy stuff and so on
[10:10] <Tm_T> raphink: true
[10:10] <pipitas> For the current KOffice-1.5-Beta testing the KOffice devs cooperated with us to provide kliks. 
[10:10] <robotgeek> yup, that would be great
[10:10] <bfree> it's so a non-root user can simply install the latest firefox/gaim/??? without risking ANY potential damage to the system as a whole
[10:10] <pipitas> Sizes for Koffice kliks are listed here: http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/KOffice-1.5.0_DistroTable
[10:10] <incinerator> what about dotfiles in the home directory?
[10:10] <nlindblad> bfree, that's one basic philosophy of UNIX
[10:10] <incinerator> will they be interfered with?
[10:11] <raphink> incinerator: well i'm beginning to see if I can work on porting klik to install in /usr
[10:11] <Riddell> can anyone make a klik bundle or does it have to come from the klik server?
[10:11] <atie> bfree, I concur with you that's beauty of klik
[10:11] <bfree> incinerator: a specific klik program can choose to use it's own .files, but usually yes it will mess with you .files
[10:11] <raphink> we surely don't want debs to install anything in ~
[10:11] <incinerator> bfree: dangerous...
[10:11] <incinerator> but on the other hand, what else can it do if you want your settings....
[10:12] <incinerator> i don't know, as long as klik isn't so broken as openpkg or whatever, it might be useful to be put into universe
[10:12] <jpatrick> :)
[10:12] <apachelogger> Riddell: afaik anyone can make one, but it's not common
[10:12] <incinerator> but I surely would not make it the default....
[10:12] <bfree> anyone can make a klik like bundle, but all klik://foo links will draw from the one server
[10:12] <sorush20> how about having a klik package manger? 
[10:12] <Riddell> bfree: right, that's what I was wondering
[10:12] <Snake__> How about integrating it into adept..
[10:12] <pipitas> Riddell, all: I propose to add all the basic info (again) in summary form to http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/Dapper
[10:12] <jpatrick> sorush20: not trying to replace apt
[10:13] <raphink> sorush20: non sense
[10:13] <Riddell> bfree: is there any kind of gpg signing?
[10:13] <apachelogger> sorush20: would include that you can't move the kliks
[10:13] <sorush20> jpatrick: raphink that is what Snake was saying? 
[10:13] <raphink> Riddell: good question :)
[10:13] <bfree> the idea of klik is that it doesn't need to be managed ... you end up with one file per "klik" so you can just delete it/move it/whatever
[10:13] <apachelogger> sorush20: big advantage, so you can keep your software on a usb stick always with you
[10:13] <Snake__> Hmm
[10:14] <raphink> bfree: the idea of signing packages is that it is reliable
[10:14] <sorush20> apachelogger: that is a great idea
[10:14] <incinerator> bfree: sounds complicated to me
[10:14] <pipitas> klik app files may be moved to any dir (or CD/USBstick) and run from there
[10:14] <bfree> Riddell: nope, as of now it does not do any checking ... it could be done, but may be messy for the end user
[10:14] <Snake__> incinerator: from what I can tell, you get klik, go to their site, download what you want, and your done...I guess
[10:15] <incinerator> snake: fair enough if that's the case
[10:15] <raphink> Snake__: that's about it
[10:15] <Riddell> bfree: that's quite a blocker for distributions to support it by default
[10:15] <pipitas> Riddell: klik uses fake URLs like  "klik://umbrello"
[10:15] <raphink> Snake__: you basically download a filesystem image that contains all you need to run the app
[10:15] <bfree> for example, the koffice 1.5 kliks draw from a different package repository ... the end user would have to add it's gpg key to verify them (most packages come from debian so checking them is easier)
[10:15] <Psi-Jack> klik. Is it KDE-UI, console, or what?
[10:15] <incinerator> as long as (k)ubuntu devs don't waste their time with preparing kliks instead of debs....
[10:15] <Riddell> pipitas: so if someone takes over the klik server everyone is in trouble! :)
[10:15] <pipitas> fake URL makes the klik client fetch (not the ready-made .cmg but) a "recipe" from klik server
[10:15] <Snake__> incinerator: +1
[10:16] <apachelogger> Psi-Jack: actually KDE, but supportes other DE's also
[10:16] <incinerator> ;-)
[10:16] <apachelogger> afaik
[10:16] <Psi-Jack> I see..
[10:16] <raphink> bfree: gpg keys are not linked to repositories, they are linked to whoever signed the package
[10:16] <jpatrick> incinerator: don't worry about that
[10:16] <Psi-Jack> Then I have no use for something like klik, myself.
[10:16] <bfree> you actually download the individual packages required to make the bundles, only a few kliks will leave you downloading a bundle directly
[10:16] <pipitas> the recipe points the client to (usually) a Debian repository to fetch a .deb from (may also be a .tgz Slack or .rpm package)
[10:16] <pipitas> the fetched package is extracted in /tmp and re-assembled into a .cmg
[10:17] <Snake__> Why should we do this rather than apt, tho?
[10:17] <robotgeek> and what about different architectures?
[10:17] <Psi-Jack> Snake__: We shouldn't.
[10:17] <jpatrick> Snake__: for testing new thingys
[10:17] <bfree> and that rpm/tgz could be coming from skype/real/??? as well as foss projects ... do they even sign their stuff?
[10:17] <raphink> to test new apps without installing and messing people's systems
[10:17] <pipitas> users' "dot" files in $HOME may be effected if s.th. goes wrong -- but never the system
[10:17] <Snake__> I see
[10:17] <apachelogger> Snake__: testing, mobility, usablity....
[10:18] <Snake__> So I could just download this single file, stick it on my USB and it will run wherever I want it to?
[10:18] <incinerator> perhaps some magic to make a backup of potentially affected dotfiles?
[10:18] <Snake__> USB Stick**
[10:18] <jpatrick> Snake__: yes
[10:18] <sorush20> klik and autopackage sound similar but klik seems to be lot less dependent on the os installed on the computer.. 
[10:18] <pipitas> but all the klik://koffice-somthing  and the current  klik://amarok-svn-nightly  set up a differnt "dotfile" environment
[10:19] <Riddell> how does a person get a klik package on the klik server?
[10:19] <apachelogger> alt-f2 klik://whatever
[10:19] <bfree> installing a second autopackage can upset one you installed earlier, klik locks things into a confined space so they won't break anything else (bar .dotfiles as mentioned)
[10:19] <pipitas> difference of klik and autopackage: klik does not compile from sources -- a.p. does
[10:19] <amu> sorush20: nope, they should be the same
[10:19] <apachelogger> Riddell: or visit the website, choose the app, click the link and it starts klik://whatever
[10:20] <raphink> Psi-Jack: hehe ;)
[10:20] <raphink> ok
[10:20] <Riddell> but I'm wondering who puts them on the server?  presumably bfree?
[10:20] <pipitas> a.p. defines a set of "quality tools" to make "better builds" -- klik devs actually would very much like to see a.p. standards + tools used for building everywhere :)
[10:20] <raphink> well that's quite an intro and I think this has to be thought about
[10:20] <apachelogger> Riddell: recipe maintainers
[10:20] <jpatrick> yum
[10:20] <Psi-Jack> klik would be great as an individual package, but should be just that. Optional.
[10:20] <raphink> and brought up to TB maybe
[10:21] <Riddell> raphink: once the packages are through NEW you can advertise them to the mailing list etc and people can give feedback
[10:21] <raphink> Psi-Jack: of course, it shoudl only be optional
[10:21] <apachelogger> Psi-Jack: it will not replace apt ;-)
[10:21] <raphink> Riddell: yes that's an idea
[10:21] <bfree> Riddell: if you want something that isn't there tell us about it :-)   all relevant debian packages should be there already and many others have been added ... I haven't added any but pipitas and probono are more involved with that side of things
[10:21] <raphink> ok
[10:21] <Psi-Jack> apachelogger: The day apt is replaced, I go back to some other distro. :)
[10:21] <bfree> klik is NOT an apt replacement ... in fact klik depends on apt (on the server)
[10:21] <sladen> bfree: currently this downloads an unsigned executable script and runs it locally?
[10:21] <pipitas> klik's main use case (IMHO) is for testing bleeding edge software without endangering the system (some people use it even for having lots of add-on software permanently)
[10:21] <apachelogger> Psi-Jack: ;-)
[10:21] <raphink> Psi-Jack: it won't be, there's no reason
[10:22] <Psi-Jack> raphink: I know. I'm not suggesting it was to replace it. LOL
[10:22] <raphink> Psi-Jack: hehe
[10:22] <Riddell> but it does need gpg signing before kubuntu or ubuntu would look at it for main
[10:22] <Psi-Jack> I'm just saying, a package like klik should be offered. It's a GREAT idea. 
[10:22] <Snake__> I think it would be a plus for kubuntu...I know i've wanted some software that wouldn't complie or was in the repos,  but I see it on here...
[10:22] <bfree> sladen: yes :-(
[10:22] <Psi-Jack> Just like I want to build a Lexmark Z600 .deb for Kubuntu. ;)
[10:22] <pipitas> klik is not aiming to replace *any* existing package management system. It is *not* a pack man syst and never will be one.
[10:22] <allee> sladen: like apt did for year
[10:22] <Riddell> even then it's tricky since it would mean us saying we suggest someone else's packages
[10:22] <robotgeek> i think it's great, new users might find it very useful. instead of compiling stuff on their own/someone else's checkinstall debs/etc
[10:23] <pipitas> klik relies on apt for "serverside apt" :)
[10:23] <ogra> sladen, and modifies user configs unintetional :)
[10:23] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: +1
[10:23] <raphink> Psi-Jack: you're welcome to it anytime
[10:23] <Psi-Jack> raphink: I gotta re-learn how to use .deb tools, first. LOL
[10:23] <Riddell> any other klik business?
[10:23] <raphink> Psi-Jack: any time on -motu we're there ;)
[10:23] <amu> pipitas: well there's should be therorethically no difference if you install a deb, or a set of deb, they should be also easy removeable, without touching the sys :) if not its a bug in the deb package, klick is an nice optional thing
[10:23] <raphink> ok
[10:23] <Psi-Jack> raphink: I've also gotta finish helping Seveas fix up his dsp-hijacker. :D
[10:24] <raphink> Riddell: I think that's it
[10:24] <Psi-Jack> raphink: -motu?
[10:24] <Riddell> what's next?  working with debian packagers?
[10:24] <raphink> Psi-Jack: #ubuntu-motu
[10:24] <Hobbsee> Psi-Jack: #ubuntu-motu
[10:24] <raphink> Riddell: yep
[10:24] <Psi-Jack> Oh.. Okay... 
[10:24] <Riddell> allee: isn't that irc channel super sekret?
[10:24] <raphink> allee: you're up
[10:24] <Psi-Jack> LOL. I see. :)
[10:24] <pipitas> amu: with .debs you can only have one version of an app at one time -- with klik you can have various. That's why I say "for testing it is ideal"
[10:24] <allee> no it isn't but when you produce unwnated input your baned quickly
[10:25] <Tm_T> pipitas: true
[10:25] <Psi-Jack> allee: Unwanted input == *.deb SUCKS? :)
[10:25] <amu> pipitas: nope, you can define a set of package, a metapackge which do the same
[10:25] <raphink> jpatrick: it's almost done though
[10:25] <Riddell> allee: I put all the kubuntu KDE packaging on alioth, do you think that's useful?
[10:25] <raphink> jpatrick: do you want me to save the log somewhere?
[10:25] <allee> Psi-Jack: as in: OT -> kicked
[10:25] <pipitas> I'll go through the log and add to the wiki side what has been raised here. See http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/Dapper from tomorrow or so
[10:25] <raphink> jpatrick: so you can do the minutes
[10:25] <Psi-Jack> allee: Gotcha. Okay. Thanks.
[10:26] <Riddell> pipitas: thanks
[10:26] <Riddell> thanks bfree too
[10:26] <jpatrick> raphink: I'll write minutes later and there's online logs
[10:26] <raphink> thanks pipitas and bre
[10:26] <Hobbsee> ping?
[10:26] <raphink> bfree: 
[10:26] <raphink> ok allee, next point?
[10:26] <raphink> bfree: thanks :)
[10:26] <allee> About 'working to gether'.  It's nothing to vote about ;)
[10:26] <raphink> allee: :)
[10:26] <allee> just and offer and to all kubuntu pkg know that it's there.
[10:26] <Tm_T> allee: that's totally out of question, right?
[10:27] <jpatrick> I have some KDE packages that I could ask to get into Debian
[10:27] <Riddell> Tm_T: what is?
[10:27] <Tm_T> Riddell: nothing
[10:27] <amu> pipitas: you know, there is no advantage, except it looks colorfull and it sounds easy, and of course it doesnt match with debian policy.  
[10:27] <allee> When you use it, you simple work closer together because both sides see it.
[10:27] <Riddell> allee: what the best process for MOTUs getting packages back into Debian?
[10:27] <raphink> amu: please keep the conversation on klik on #klik 
[10:27] <pipitas> amu: it doesnt aim to match with Debian policy :)
[10:28] <Psi-Jack> Okay.
[10:28] <ogra> Riddell, the utnubu team in debian ...
[10:28] <allee> Riddell: hard to tell.  Everything added to KDe extra found it way into debian
[10:28] <ogra> Riddell, join it on alioth
[10:28] <allee> when therer suddenly dozends of new pkg.  Overload effect happen :)
[10:28] <raphink> ogra: :)
[10:29] <raphink> allee: I think contributing to Debian has been discussed, even trolled on, several times
[10:29] <raphink> allee: there are wiki pages about it
[10:29] <raphink> allee: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[10:30] <allee> raphink: yes, I know.  How likes it, use the oppertunity,  it's pretty KDE centric and no fancy support tools
[10:30] <raphink> it's surely a good idea to try and get more in touch with Debian KDE packagers
[10:30] <raphink> allee: so your point is to advertise this IRC channel, right?
[10:30] <allee> just a bit of overlap between debian and kubuntu.  At the important point.  the changes in debian/ dir
[10:31] <raphink> what changes in debian/ are you talking about?
[10:31] <allee> raphink: no. the svn repo for KDE debian/ dirs
[10:31] <raphink> ah ok
[10:31] <Riddell> allee: what KDE DD's do we have these days?  isaac, dato?
[10:31] <allee> raphink: the repo contains the debian dirs of pkgs
[10:32] <raphink> Riddell: claude
[10:32] <allee> Mark Purcell mainly
[10:32] <jpatrick> allee: like kmplayer?
[10:32] <allee> isaac, dato and some other help on request and as time permits
[10:32] <allee> But Paul is the quickest sponsor I've ever heard about
[10:33] <ArmeBosse> paul ?
[10:33] <allee> ArmeBosse: Argl.  Paul Purcell, sorry. Mark was my first sponsor :(
[10:33] <ArmeBosse> ok :)
[10:34] <allee> ArmeBosse: Mark Purcell that is.
[10:34] <raphink> ok we're getting in Debian/dev related things and I'd like to be able to set a date for next meeting before most people leave :)
[10:34] <raphink> if that's fine
[10:34] <ArmeBosse> yep for kde extras, mark is the the guy
[10:34] <Psi-Jack> Hehe.
[10:35] <ArmeBosse> fathi boudra :)
[10:35] <raphink> allee: is it fine if we move on to next meeting's date?
[10:35] <Riddell> ah hah!
[10:35] <Riddell> any other business first
[10:35] <jpatrick> raphink: anything between 5UTC - 8UTC for me to be there (unforturately)
[10:35] <allee> yeap.  Nothing more to add
[10:35] <raphink> ok
[10:35] <Riddell> amu: ?
[10:35] <raphink> anyone still has anything to say?
[10:35] <raphink> I mean another /topic that was not in the agenda?
[10:35] <Riddell> did Psi-Jack?
[10:35] <Psi-Jack> raphink: I did. :)
[10:35] <Hobbsee> and Snake__?
[10:35] <jpatrick> I think Tm_t did
[10:36] <raphink> Psi-Jack: go ahead then
[10:36] <amu> Riddell: klickibunti? 
[10:36] <Riddell> waiting on Psi-Jack now...
[10:36] <Psi-Jack> My issues, involves the problems I noticed with, for whatever reasons, the kde defaults for the Konqueror use, breaks the proper use of kfmclient's profiles for File Manager, and Web Browser profiles.
[10:36] <raphink> amu: lol
[10:37] <amu> raphink: hehe, thats a real thing :) 
[10:37] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: what's broken?
[10:38] <Psi-Jack> As it is, if one loads up Konqueror, as Web Browser, and uses a desktop icon to load up their DVD, or CD, or, even the System Menu to open their home dir, it loads it up into a new tab of the Web Browser window.
[10:38] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: these have changed a lot in dapper, no tabs for everything, konqueror opens in new windows now
[10:38] <raphink> amu: oh yeah
[10:38] <allee> Riddell: startup konqueror, set, eg. show bookmark toolbar, save it.  start konqueror again no toolbar
[10:38] <atie> Psi-Jack, +1, don't want to see bookmark at file manager profile
[10:38] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Does it make /proper/ use of Konqueror profiles?
[10:38] <Riddell> the bookmark toolbar is weird
[10:38] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: sure, look in /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings
[10:38] <Tm_T> I dont want to mess default profiles at all
[10:38] <Psi-Jack> Konqueror has a profile system that works abolutely greatly, when USED properly. ;)
[10:38] <allee> Riddell: it never was until last big defaults update 
[10:38] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: but konqueror has some bugs
[10:39] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Dapper's or Breezy? :)
[10:39] <allee> but hat more something for lauchpad and #kubuntu-devel IMHO
[10:39] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: look at dapepr since that's what we're working on, let me know if you have specific changes you'd like
[10:39] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Could you send me what dapper has for that, so far? I don't run Dapper, till it's stable. ;)
[10:40] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: find it on archive.ubuntu.com
[10:40] <Riddell> latest kubuntu-default-settings
[10:40] <jjesse> check out the release notes :)
[10:40] <Psi-Jack> Alright. That'll work too. 
[10:40] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: or try flight 4, coming out tomorrow!
[10:40] <Riddell> ok, amu 
[10:40] <amu> Riddell: all right
[10:41] <jpatrick> anything else? (so I can do minutes)
[10:41] <amu> maybe some of you know, heart about it 
[10:41] <amu> klickibunti is a webgui, users can build their own customized iso images.
[10:41] <raphink> any other topic?
[10:41] <Psi-Jack> Has the other issue with the "autorun" facility of KDE in Dapper been fixed to not give errors about opening media:/hd? as well?
[10:41] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: yes
[10:41] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: do gi*ve flight 4 a try :)
[10:41] <Riddell> amu: based on ubuntu/kubuntu CDs?
[10:41] <amu> the idea comes some years ago, i was too busy building iso :)  
[10:41] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Hmmm.. What is flight 4? LOL
[10:42] <jpatrick> Psi-Jack: forth dapper testing cd
[10:42] <raphink> Psi-Jack: the dapper snapshot
[10:42] <Psi-Jack> Ahh..
[10:42] <amu> Riddell: lets say debian based :) of course kubuntu is the first chosse 
[10:42] <amu> s/choose
[10:42] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: Tomorrow? :)
[10:42] <Riddell> of course
[10:42] <Tm_T> if there's any artwork needs before any freezes in that front, I'd like to know :)
[10:42] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: friday
[10:42] <Riddell> amu: what's the status of it?
[10:42] <Psi-Jack> Riddell: I'll try it out on my testing HDD, and get back with you. :)
[10:42] <amu> users upload their desktop background, install their own packages / files
[10:43] <raphink> amu: link?
[10:43] <amu> Riddell: i'm busy in onother project, zero time for it now :( maybe a workgroup can handle it 
[10:43] <amu> raphink: not published now
[10:43] <raphink> amu: ok
[10:43] <Riddell> amu: do you have a server for it?  I'd imagine it's very CPU/disk intensive
[10:44] <jpatrick> everyone done?
[10:44] <amu> Riddell: yep
[10:44] <Psi-Jack> I'm done. :)
[10:44] <raphink> jpatrick: soon I guess
[10:44] <Riddell> amu: I'd say make a wiki page with your ideas and post to the mailing list to see if anyone is willing to work on it
[10:44] <amu> Riddell: it's limited to known users, everyone its impossible 
[10:44] <Riddell> amu: yeah, I can imagine that
[10:45] <raphink> interesting project though amu, and I can easily see how to improve it
[10:45] <Riddell> amu: and you have the scripts for this yes?  so it's just a case of putting a web front end onto it
[10:45] <amu> Riddell: sound good, well it looks easier if i finish it instead of explaining to others 
[10:46] <Riddell> amu: I think there would be a lot of demand for it though
[10:46] <amu> Riddell: basic build scripts are ready, the php? code is the missing component 
[10:46] <raphink> amu: yeah make a wiki and a snapshot of it :)
[10:46] <raphink> building a live CD requires about an hour on a standard comp
[10:46] <amu> raphink: sounds possible for a spacial group of people, my hardware is limited :)
[10:46] <raphink> (2GHz proc with 512MB RAM)
[10:47] <amu> raphink: i redcuded it to 15min. with an cache option maybe 8-9 minutes are possible
[10:47] <raphink> you'd need several machines to handle a large demand
[10:47] <raphink> amu: wow nice :)
[10:47] <raphink> ok
[10:47] <raphink> well since jpatrick has to go and is our secretary tonight :)
[10:47] <Riddell> agenda done?
[10:48] <amu> high end hardware, dual xeoan 2,6, 2gig ram, raid scsi  
[10:48] <raphink> it would be good to end up setting a date for next meeting
[10:48] <Hobbsee> when's our next meeting?
[10:48] <raphink> amu: :D :D
[10:48] <Riddell> I say we could have these monthly
[10:48] <Hobbsee> stupid lag...
[10:48] <amu> s/xeon 
[10:48] <raphink> Riddell: I would say more often
[10:48] <raphink> Riddell: there are points planned for today that we switched to next time
[10:48] <Psi-Jack> Yeah, more often. :)
[10:48] <Hobbsee> fortnightly?
[10:48] <raphink> and maybe need to be talked about before FF
[10:49] <jpatrick> raphink: I'll done minutes and place on wiki tomorrow
[10:49] <raphink> this meeting has shown useful I think
[10:49] <Riddell> well I already have the weekly distro meetings, too many meeting for me :)
[10:49] <Riddell> but if it's not 2 hours each time more often is ok
[10:49] <amu> Riddell: fosdem time, i'll show you the things :) 
[10:49] <jpatrick> indeed :)
[10:49] <raphink> Riddell: you can come to one over two 
[10:49] <Riddell> amu: yes please :)
[10:49] <raphink> Riddell: won't be two hours each time if it's more often
[10:49] <raphink> I'd propose to have a meeting once every 2 weeks
[10:50] <raphink> what do you think?
[10:50] <Riddell> same time next wednesday?
[10:50] <jpatrick> Good to me
[10:50] <Riddell> no, 2 weeks wednesday
[10:50] <raphink> I'd like that but it's not possible
[10:50] <jpatrick> that's excellent
[10:50] <jpatrick> :/
[10:50] <amu> Riddell: did you announced the new live images? 
[10:50] <raphink> Riddell: we need to discuss some other things before FF
[10:50] <raphink> so next week would be better for next meeting
[10:50] <raphink> but next wenesday same time is Dapper Status
[10:51] <Riddell> amu: not yet, will do though
[10:51] <raphink> oh no sorry ;)
[10:51] <raphink> thats thursday 
[10:51] <raphink> hehe
[10:51] <raphink> ok
[10:51] <raphink> well next wednesday is fine for me
[10:51] <raphink> are there still people around to give their opinion?
[10:52] <Riddell> would think Hobbsee would want something later
[10:52] <raphink> jpatrick, Riddell, Psi-Jack, Hobbsee, Tm_T allee 
[10:52] <Hobbsee> Riddell: hmmm?
[10:52] <amu> raphink: well maybe my account at k.o
[10:52] <amu> :)
[10:52] <jpatrick> next wenesday's fine :)
[10:52] <Hobbsee> cant go any later - uni starts in 2 weeks, as much as i'd like to
[10:52] <Tm_T> raphink: all fine
[10:52] <Psi-Jack> Oh. 
[10:52] <Riddell> raphink: same time next wednesday then
[10:53] <jpatrick> brilliant
[10:53] <raphink> who is fine for next wednesday 20 UTC ? raise hands ?
[10:53] <Psi-Jack> Any day, around 8 UTC is perfect for me, just like today. :)
[10:53] <Psi-Jack> 20 UTC?
[10:53] <Riddell> I am
[10:53] <luka74> ok with me
[10:53] <Riddell> Psi-Jack: todays was at 20UTC
[10:53] <seth> I can do 20 UTC again
[10:53] <Psi-Jack> Okay. Yeah, I'm good with that. ;)
[10:53] <Riddell> right, thanks all, I'm off to the pub
[10:53] <raphink> Psi-Jack: 20 = 8 PM
[10:53] <Hobbsee> 20 UTC is fine
[10:53] <Hobbsee> haha enjoy
[10:53] <Tm_T> Riddell: lucky you =)
[10:53] <raphink> Riddell: have a nice time there
[10:54] <atie> <-- love kubuntu.   Bye everyone, good to be here.
[10:54] <raphink> ok
[10:54] <allee> raphink: wednesday day is fine
[10:54] <raphink> that's about it
[10:54] <Hobbsee> too early for the pub yet..
[10:54] <raphink> atie: bye
[10:54] <raphink> goooooood :)
[10:54] <robotgeek> good fun meeting! later all
[10:54] <Psi-Jack> Hobbsee: Heh
[10:54] <Tm_T> sir's, off ->
[10:55] <Psi-Jack> I must say. I'm glad to see Kubuntu actually holding meetings like this.
[10:55] <raphink> Psi-Jack: so am I :)
[10:55] <raphink> this is a success :)
[10:55] <Hobbsee> hold it, next wednesday 20UTC?
[10:55] <raphink> yes Hobbsee 
[10:55] <Hobbsee> isnt today thursday for you all?
[10:56] <raphink> I'll post to the ML about it
[10:56] <Riddell> Hobbsee: not yet
[10:56] <Psi-Jack> This is also what will help keep Kubuntu united as a community, and what the community wants and needs. That's very important to Kubuntu.
[10:56] <raphink> yes Hobbsee but next thursday is already taken
[10:56] <raphink> Riddell: sure it's thursday today :p
[10:56] <allee> raphink: Wednesday is better :)
[10:56] <Hobbsee> right, so it's your wednesday, and my thursday, 2 march, i take it?
[10:56] <raphink> allee: thursday is not possible next week anyway
[10:56] <mjg59> pwd
[10:56] <mjg59> NNGH.
[10:56] <Psi-Jack> Oh shoot..
[10:56] <mjg59> (sorry)
[10:57] <raphink> no Hobbsee 
[10:57] <Psi-Jack> I was gonna ask one more question. And just now remembered. ;)
[10:57] <raphink> Hobbsee: my wednesday 22nd, 20 UTC
[10:57] <raphink> Hobbsee: your thursday 23rd I guess
[10:57] <Hobbsee> ah, one week away, right :)
[10:57] <raphink> mjg59: lol
[10:57] <Hobbsee> gotcha
[10:57] <allee> raphink: me is normally on the highway on thursday night.  Today is a big exception
[10:57] <raphink> mjg59: /home/kubuntu/meeting
[10:57] <Psi-Jack> Skype! Seveas has a perfectly working Skype package, and with me fixing up some final touches to his skype-dsp-hijacker, I think skype needs to be available in the Universe or Multiverse. 
[10:58] <raphink> allee: lucky exception then
[10:58] <allee> yes
[10:58] <raphink> ok
[10:58] <raphink> meeting is over
[10:58] <raphink> :)
[10:58] <raphink> ------------------------------------
[10:58] <Hobbsee> no!  hold the meeting!  it cant be over!
[10:58] <Hobbsee> :P
[10:59] <Psi-Jack> Is skype in Dapper?
[10:59] <allee> Hobbsee: at #kubuntu-devel  is the fun for the next 6 days!
[10:59] <raphink> and I'm off for a time
[10:59] <Hobbsee> argh...i'll have more fun when i'm not so dizzy...
[10:59] <Hobbsee> lol