[12:22] <Hobbsee> stupid wireless settings, and losing the essid...
[12:22] <Hobbsee> grr
[12:28] <luka74> Hobbsee: what do you mean "losing essid" - wireless is rock-solid for me in Dapper
[12:30] <Hobbsee> luka74: well, it was set to the correct wireless essid, then it lost the connection (both wired and wireless decided to connect ot the same IP address - not sure why), then an iwconfig showed the essid as off/any
[12:30] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: which wireless card?
[12:30] <Hobbsee> i'm usually finding that i have to do a dhclient wlan0 at boot
[12:30] <Hobbsee> netgear wg511 v2
[12:31] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: do you have "auto wlan0" in your /etc/network/interfaces ?
[12:31] <Hobbsee> yeah - want me to pastebin the entire file?
[12:31] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: sure
[12:31] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: which chipset though?
[12:32] <Hobbsee> made in china
[12:32] <Hobbsee> so the one that works with ndiswrapper
[12:32] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: umm, okay. ugly :)
[12:32] <Hobbsee> http://pastebin.com/558625
[12:33] <Hobbsee> that works some boots - other times i have to use sudo dhclient wlan0 and then it works
[12:34] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: you have both eth0 and wlan0 trying to come up at boot. plus you don't need the "dhclient wlan0" at the end of the line
[12:35] <robotgeek> file, err
[12:35] <robotgeek> cause you have auto eth0
[12:35] <robotgeek> i meant auto wlan0
[12:35] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: indeed, but it fails every single time if i dont have the dhclient wlan0 at th eend
[12:36] <Hobbsee> but i'll try taking the auto eth0 line out
[12:36] <Hobbsee> that entire section, i take it?
[12:36] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: no, just the auto eth0
[12:37] <Hobbsee> ok :)
[12:37] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: http://pastebin.com/558639
[12:37] <Hobbsee> i did want the made in taiwan one...but they didnt have any
[12:38] <Hobbsee> yeah i got it :)
[12:38] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: wireless cards are a pain, i went five times, and finally got a ralink card
[12:38] <Hobbsee> had to manually specify which network etc for it to work
[12:38] <Hobbsee> ugh...not that many cards around here
[12:38] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: there's a nice script on this wiki page. 
[12:38] <robotgeek> Hobbsee, check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiHowto for tips on setting your wireless up
[12:39] <Hobbsee> heh - that's how i got it working at all, and i get an error with that script
[12:39] <robotgeek> sorry, that's a automated reply :)
[12:39] <Hobbsee> sarah@sarah:~$ ./wlan-scan.sh
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Not enough of information: "dev" argument is required.
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Not enough of information: "dev" argument is required.
[12:39] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:39] <robotgeek> lemme see
[12:41] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: that script needs to be called from /etc/network/interfaces
[12:41] <Hobbsee> ah...
[12:41] <Hobbsee> i must have missed that bit
[12:42] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: i tried writing my own sometime back 
[12:47] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: it basically tries to see network you are on, and spit's out the stuff to /etc/network/interfaces
[12:48] <Hobbsee> well, my question more is, do i just put script /home/sarah/wlan-scan.sh or add other bits?
[12:49] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: put the script somewhere, and add the mapping stuff in the interfaces file
[12:50] <Hobbsee> right...
[12:53] <Hobbsee> ok i think i got it :D
[12:54] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: cool, that should work even while booting up, i think
[12:54] <Hobbsee> ok :)
[01:21] <allee> Hobbsee: Tip: all script that are run by root should be owned by root.  Otherwise some one breaking in sarah as just to add a 'up my-make-me-root' and with next ifup gains root access.
[01:22] <Hobbsee> good point
[01:22] <Hobbsee> thanks for tha t:)
[01:23] <allee> robotgeek_work: do you understand why auto eth0 is there?  All it does is to delay boot when dhcp is used and no cable is connected 
[01:23] <allee> but that not out-of-the-box
[01:24] <robotgeek_work> allee: hmm, it says in "man interfaces" that it lists the interfaces to be brought up
[01:24] <robotgeek_work> yes, if cable is not connected, i guess it would not bring it up
[01:25] <allee>        Lines beginning with the word "auto" are used to identify the physical interfaces to be  brought
[01:25] <allee>        up  when  ifup  is  run  with  the -a option.  (This option is used by the system boot scripts.)
[01:26] <Hobbsee> looks useful, that ifplugd
[01:26] <allee> Hobbsee: on boot it's init script return always [fail]  but it works
[01:26] <Hobbsee> *nods*
[01:26] <robotgeek_work> *learns*
[01:27] <allee> robotgeek_work: next time you reboot try without a cable connected.  (have a cup of coffee ready)
[01:28] <robotgeek_work> allee: i don't use that on my desktop machine, on my laptop i don't use eth0 :)
[01:29] <allee> robotgeek_work: I've 1GB line when I use eth0 on my laptop.  And that's much better than wlan
[01:29] <robotgeek_work> allee: no such line here on my end :)
[01:29] <allee> robotgeek_work: oh, you don't use the cable?  And you don't get this delay on boot?  Me gets very curious!!!!!
[01:31] <robotgeek_work> allee: lemme check my laptop thing. problem is i don't shut them down, ever
[01:33] <robotgeek_work> allee: i apparently don't have "auto eth0"/"auto wlan0"  stuff in my laptop. since it's a "special" card
[01:33] <allee> robotgeek_work: ah, okay
[01:34] <robotgeek_work> allee: i think i removed it while trying to get my airport extreme working
[03:17] <Lathiat> gah, my kontact is continually crashing today
[03:17] <Lathiat> weird it didnt do that yesterday
[06:05] <freeflying> amu: hi
[06:27] <Hobbsee> no way...surely someone didnt do this...
[06:27] <Hobbsee> !malone 30753
[06:45] <Hobbsee> surely these should be assigned to kubuntu bugs by default, if they're in kubuntu packages...
[09:46] <Tonio_> hello*
[09:46] <Hobbsee> hi Tonio_ 
[09:47] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: were you at the meeting yesterday ?
[09:47] <Hobbsee> argh! i had something really really important to tell you, then i forgot
[09:47] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: sure was
[09:47] <Tonio_> arf ?
[09:47] <Hobbsee> arf?
[09:47] <Tonio_> I couldn't be there, my adsl access has been accidentally closed.........
[09:48] <Hobbsee> oh, yeah
[09:48] <Hobbsee> logs are there, in the IRC logs
[09:50] <Tonio_> can yousend them to me ?
[09:50] <Tonio_> wat was decided for the dpi fixing to 100 ?
[09:51] <hunger> How is suspending supposed to work in kubuntu nowadays?
[09:51] <Hobbsee> hunger: it's supposed to work, via klaptop, i think
[09:52] <hunger> Hobbsee: It does not work anymore... I'd love to find how it is supposed to work so that I can help fixing this.
[09:52] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-02-16.html
[09:52] <Tonio_> cool
[09:53] <Hobbsee> it's getting set to 96dpi, same font size as gnome has, was the plan, IIRC
[09:54] <hunger> Hobbsee: I have klaptopd running (I think... dunno how to test that), but suspend is broken.
[09:54] <hunger> Hobbsee: acpid fakes a keypress which then seems to be ignored.
[09:54] <Hobbsee> well you usually get a battery monitor for it :P
[09:54] <Hobbsee> er, ok then
[09:55] <hunger> Hobbsee: Callisg the sleep script in /etc/acpi works fine.
[09:55] <hunger> Hobbsee: I do have the kde battery applet, so klaptopd should run.
[09:55] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure, i've never looked into it
[09:56] <hunger> I do get a brightness setting window nowadays when changing brightness.
[09:57] <hunger> In fact I get two... so maybe something gnomeish is getting started, messing things up.
[09:59] <Tm_T> YAY!
[09:59] <Tm_T> since when we got update notifier in kicker?
[09:59] <hunger> Same is true for volume... but that is totally borked as both windows seem to do conflicting changen.
[10:00] <Hobbsee> Tm_T: a few days ago
[10:00] <Tm_T> ah, yes
[10:00] <Tm_T> seems usable
[10:00] <Tm_T> "no updates"
[10:01] <Hobbsee> it doesnt seem to update often enough
[10:01] <Tm_T> :p
[10:01] <Tm_T> just booted
[10:01] <sealne> once a day afaik?
[10:01] <Tm_T> often enough = twice a day
[10:01] <hunger> Hobbsee: cron runs the apt script daily.
[10:01] <Tm_T> ahha! 12 upgrades
[10:02] <hunger> Hobbsee: The update-notifier thingy just picks up changes from there.
[10:02] <Hobbsee> yeah
[10:02] <hunger> Hobbsee: Not easy to change the script to run more often though:-)
[10:03] <hunger> Hobbsee: You need to run apt-get update directly if you want that;-)
[10:03] <Hobbsee> could, yeah
[10:03] <Tm_T> I just use "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade"
[10:03] <hunger> Tm_T: So do I.
[10:03] <Hobbsee> that's basically what my script says...
[10:03] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: pretty useless script ;)
[10:03] <Hobbsee> heh
[10:04] <Tm_T> gah! I must get amaroK working
[10:04] <Tm_T> I broke it nicely yesterday =)
[10:04] <hunger> Tm_T: You may keey the pieces;-) Just don't send them my way.
[10:05] <Tm_T> haha
[10:05] <Hobbsee> anyone like writing man pages?
[10:05] <Hobbsee> off to make dinner...a
[10:05] <Hobbsee> try man akregator i'm stunned!
[10:05] <Hobbsee> try man akregator - i'm stunned!
[10:06] <Tm_T> hmm, clean
[10:06] <Hobbsee> try reading it...
[10:06] <Tm_T> no dcop calls in man page
[10:06] <Tm_T> no dcop calls in man page -> useless
[10:07] <Hobbsee> well it's the manpage for kmail, too :P
[10:07] <Hobbsee> or one of those
[10:08] <Tm_T> haha
[10:08] <Tm_T> "one of those"
[10:25] <Tonio_> okay I read everything..... let's adapt the kubuntu-default-settings to what has been choosen....
[10:25] <Tonio_> hi all
[10:26] <Tm_T> Tonio_: hullo
[10:26] <Tonio_> I'm just a bit sad for the tabs at the bottom of konversation ;) that will not be homogenous with the rest of tabbed application
[10:26] <Tonio_> konqueror, kopete, konsole will have top tabs, while konv bottom ones.........
[10:26] <Tonio_> Tm_T: hi ;)
[10:26] <Tm_T> actually I would like to see tabs at the bottom in Kopete and Konsole
[10:26] <Tonio_> cannot be set in kopete
[10:26] <Tm_T> for the same reason
[10:27] <Tm_T> cannot?
[10:27] <Tonio_> Tm_T: nope
[10:27] <hunger> Anyone using gpg with kmail in dapper?
[10:27] <Tm_T> err, I do have
[10:27] <Tonio_> Tm_T: ah ??????
[10:27] <sealne> i'll fix the akregator man page if no one else is so far
[10:27] <Tm_T> hunger: I do, occasionally
[10:27] <freeflying> hunger: I'm now
[10:27] <Tonio_> well the point is just to be homogenous
[10:27] <sealne> hunger: yep
[10:27] <hunger> Does it work for you?
[10:27] <Tm_T> hunger: last time it did
[10:27] <freeflying> hunger: y
[10:27] <Tm_T> hunger: but I compile Kmail myself :p
[10:28] <hunger> I get a window "General error" when doing "Settings->Configure kmail" and then try to modify a identity.
[10:28] <Tm_T> Tonio_: exactly, homogenous between konvi,kopete and konsole ;)
[10:28] <hunger> "Failed to fetch keys from the backend"
[10:28] <Tonio_> Tm_T: hum, the problem is that konv is the only one with bottom tabs ;)
[10:28] <Tm_T> tabs where focus (input line is)
[10:28] <Tonio_> did you ask yesterday for bottom tabs by default on other apps ?
[10:29] <Tm_T> I did mention, I think
[10:29] <hunger> kgpg works fine...
[10:29] <hunger> konsole has bottom tabs for me:-)
[10:31] <Tm_T> old pic, but, tabs at the bottom: http://kapsi.fi/tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/foo/clients_1.png
[10:32] <freeflying> Tm_T: how about kopete-0.12 now 
[10:34] <Tm_T> wait, cant run it now
[10:37] <Tm_T> muhahhaha
[10:37] <Tm_T> got it, finally
[10:37] <Tm_T> amaroK running <3<3
[10:38] <Tm_T> took only... 6 hours?
[10:38] <Tonio_> hunger: we are talking about the default, not your personnal settings ;)
[10:38] <Tonio_> in kubuntu the default for console is on the top
[10:39] <Tonio_> in kubuntu only, of course
[10:41] <freeflying> Tonio_: may we put default tab of konsole to bottom 
[10:42] <Tonio_> freeflying: hum, why not, but then we should do the same with kopete (as long as it is possible and I'm quite certain it isn't)
[10:43] <Tonio_> the problem is that it can be confusing having tabs on the top of konqueror, bottom of konsole, top of kopete and bottom of kon
[10:43] <Tonio_> konversation
[10:43] <freeflying> Tonio_: kopete can put to bottom
[10:43] <Tonio_> freeflying: we are talking of default settings, not the ones you, me and all those geeks arrounds are in love with
[10:43] <Tonio_> freeflying: okay, but then I think we have to make the tab management homogenous
[10:44] <Tonio_> I was thinking the same for doubleclick, but people don't agree on that point
[10:44] <freeflying> Tonio_: i see , if for that gaol , it  seems put all to top 
[10:44] <Tonio_> the "rare" people who prefer simple can easily switch back
[10:44] <Tonio_> freeflying: that was my purpose ;)
[10:44] <Tonio_> imagin your grandma of mother
[10:45] <Tonio_> that's the way I do, and the general feeling is "do always the same in ALL apps, cause otherwise, she will get lost"
[10:45] <Tonio_> grandma OR mother excuse me :)
[10:46] <Tonio_> I personnaly use botom tabs, but as most users discovered tabs with firefox, they will for sure always search for them on the top
[10:46] <mornfall> hu hu hu
[10:47] <freeflying> Tonio_: you can not meet everybody's need at all
[10:47] <Tonio_> freeflying: yes, that's why my thinking is to non powerusers
[10:47] <Tonio_> lambda people
[10:47] <Tonio_> all of us are mostly changing everything in our settings anyway..........;
[10:47] <freeflying> Tonio_: but we can provide a kubuntu's style 
[10:48] <Tonio_> that's why the "who here likes tabs on the top or not" isn't important
[10:48] <Tonio_> what's important is "where will the lambda search for the tabs"
[10:48] <Tonio_> and it is pretty certain he will search on the top
[10:48] <freeflying> Tonio_: y.
[10:49] <mornfall> who's lambda
[10:49] <mornfall> persona?
[10:49] <Tonio_> isn't that correct in english ?
[10:49] <mornfall> they should have real-sounding names IIRC :p
[10:49] <Tonio_> hum.........; lambda = average joe :)
[10:49] <mornfall> aha
[10:49] <mornfall> that's a basic mistake then :-)
[10:50] <mornfall> there's no average joe period
[10:50] <Tonio_> and to me average joe will like double click and tabs on the top for sure !
[10:50] <Tonio_> am I still wrong ? isn't "average joe" understandable in english ? americans do use that everytime :)
[10:51] <mornfall> Tonio_: no, the principle is wrong
[10:51] <Tonio_> mornfall: principle of what ?
[10:51] <hunger> Tonio_: Everybody understood what you were saying I think.
[10:51] <mornfall> Tonio_: trying to design for average joe usually gives poor results
[10:51] <Tonio_> hunger arf........ ;)
[10:51] <Tonio_> mornfall: discuss about that with apple ;)
[10:51] <hunger> Tonio_: I am just complaining about the concept of Joe Average:-)
[10:51] <Tonio_> or with MS
[10:52] <mornfall> Tonio_: i'm fairly sure apple is not doing it :-)
[10:52] <Tonio_> mornfall: apple is doing more than ever, certainly
[10:52] <Tonio_> did you use OSX?*
[10:52] <mornfall> you are missing the point
[10:52] <hunger> Tonio_: MS does not design for Joe Average... Joe Average gets defined by what MS does;-)
[10:52] <mornfall> it's not designed for average user
[10:53] <Tonio_> hunger: I think it goes both ways :-)
[10:53] <mornfall> it's designed for a fairly well defined set of users
[10:53] <hunger> Tonio_: Apple does not design for Joe Average either. They try to make things easy for everybody that is a totally different goal.
[10:53] <mornfall> *and* more importantly, many things apply equally to all kinds of users
[10:53] <Tonio_> mornfall: I totally agree with you according to macos 8 or 9, but X is really different
[10:53] <Tonio_> incredibly simplified and coherent
[10:54] <mornfall> Tonio_: so that helps average joe and gets in the way of all those power users from press etc using apples right? :)
[10:54] <Tonio_> well, the doubleclick is a long kde debate, and Idon't want to reopen it here ;)
[10:54] <mornfall> Tonio_: average joe is very far from press or from being an everyday computer user
[10:55] <mornfall> Tonio_: in the general perception
[10:55] <Tonio_> mornfall: absolutly, that why for example I think the tabs have to be in the smae place for all applications
[10:55] <mornfall> Tonio_: give me coherent definition of average joe, including his computer habits, his goals using computer etc and i'll believe you :)
[10:55] <hunger> Tonio_: What apple does well IMHO is to pick a set of rules and then it sticks to those.
[10:55] <Tonio_> people that are using the computer twice a week will keep searching them everytime
[10:56] <hunger> Tonio_: So what?
[10:56] <hunger> Tonio_: People using the computer twice a week will search for its power botton, too!
[10:56] <Hobbsee> hi again
[10:57] <Tonio_> hunger ? well, the question is, do we want a coherent desktop or not ?"
[10:57] <Tonio_> I don't think having the same thing set differently depending the application is something good
[10:57] <Hobbsee> hey hunger: you're right - that klaptop thing is warpe
[10:57] <mornfall> Tonio_: that has absolutely nothing to do with average joe
[10:57] <Hobbsee> d
[10:57] <freeflying> Tonio_: I think just provide a kubuntu's style , you needn't care for too much's opinion 
[10:58] <Tonio_> mornfall: okay, so forget that average thing, that was a very bad argumentation :)
[10:58] <hunger> Tonio_: I fully agree. And I actually think having tabs consistently at top or bottom is necessary (but it is unimportent whether it is top or bottom).
[10:58] <Tonio_> I was wrong on that point
[10:58] <Tonio_> hunger: that's exactly what I'm saying :)
[10:58] <freeflying> It will be hard to tell what is the average joe ate all
[10:59] <hunger> Tonio_: Pick one or the other, you are the GUI master here;-)
[10:59] <Tonio_> the problem is that I don't want to put konversation's tabs at the botom i we don't do the same for kopete and konsole :)
[10:59] <Tonio_> hunger: yes, but I don't wanna any decision without the global approval of everybody ;)
[10:59] <Tonio_> I don't have the mind of a boss hehe ;)
[11:00] <Tonio_> mornfall: anyway, you were right on your apple vision ;) I was wrong on that point ;)
[11:00] <freeflying> Tonio_: you can not put all tabs to bottom, so you'd put to top 
[11:00] <hunger> Tonio_: Write a wiki page then, stating what should go where (aka. GUI rules for kubuntu).
[11:00] <Tonio_> freeflying: that's actually what I'm thinking about
[11:00] <freeflying> Tonio_: just do it 
[11:01] <hunger> Tonio_: Nobody will bother reading it and you can just send all complainers to that page;-)
[11:01] <Tonio_> hunger, I'll do the package, and then after discussing with Riddell I'll write a wiki page :)
[11:01] <mornfall> oh, the general problem is that tabs need to be obliterated :-))
[11:01] <Tonio_> hunger: you're right :)
[11:01] <freeflying> hunger: I don't think a wiki page good idea
[11:01] <Tonio_> the problem is that kde isn't globally coherent
[11:02] <hunger> Tonio_: Plus the decissions reached will be documented, so we do not need to repeat the discussions all the time.
[11:02] <Tonio_> it is a set of very good application, but there is no IHM really defined
[11:02] <hunger> Tonio_: Nothing is globally coherent.
[11:03] <mornfall> hunger: ehrm
[11:03] <Tonio_> hunger: well, although I don't really appreciate gnome, I must say that the IHM more documented
[11:03] <Tonio_> same for windows of osx.... KDE miss a few documentationon that point, to me...
[11:03] <mornfall> Tonio_: the problem is that people think that KDE is finished product -- while in fact it is more like a frozen finish-home thingy :-)
[11:03] <hunger> Tonio_: Yes, the gnome HIG is pretty well documented.
[11:04] <mornfall> on the other hand, gnome is trying to be a final product yes
[11:05] <robotgeek> hey Tonio_ 
[11:05] <hunger> Yeah. KDE does need lots of polish to get up and running properly.
[11:06] <Hobbsee> hey look!  kopete does have tabs!
[11:06] <Tm_T> it does
[11:06] <robotgeek> morning Hobbsee 
[11:06] <Hobbsee> well there you go
[11:06] <Hobbsee> evening robotgeek 
[11:06] <hunger> It does have lots of niceties... but just as many rough corners you maintainers need to work around:
[11:06] <Tm_T> haha
[11:06] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: here I go ;)
[11:06] <robotgeek> hey Tm_T 
[11:06] <Tm_T> robotgeek: yay!
[11:07] <Tonio_> I agree the KDE crew have done lots of improvements on that point, really, but there is still things that are to be defined
[11:07] <Tonio_> okay, so let's temporary go with the top tabbed konversation
[11:07] <Tonio_> and with simple click ;)
[11:07] <Tm_T> btw, was there kmplayer packages somewhere
[11:07] <hunger> And that all the HW stuff comes out of the gnome corner nowadays is really annoying for kde users.
[11:08] <robotgeek> Tonio_: when do you want to do the DPI testing stuff?
[11:08] <Tonio_> robotgeek: I will search yes ;)
[11:08] <Hobbsee> personally, i think that you could get away with having the konv tabs on the bottom, and the rest on the top - just seems to make more sense that way, even though it's illogical
[11:08] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: hum....
[11:08] <hunger> Hobbsee: You can always configure them that way.
[11:08] <Hobbsee> actually, you probably could put kopete's tabs on the bottom, it doenst look *that* bad
[11:08] <robotgeek> Tonio_: i'm going to be slightly busy after today, won't have net till monday. is that okay?
[11:09] <Tonio_> hunger: I would personnaly prefer to have something logical, and let the people who dislike the settings change it, no ?
[11:09] <hunger> Tonio_: I fully agree.
[11:09] <Tonio_> robotgeek: yes, I know what to search and do ;)
[11:09] <Hobbsee> true
[11:09] <robotgeek> Tonio_: cool :)
[11:09] <hunger> Tonio_: Could you do something about the colors when you got time?
[11:09] <Tonio_> okay so let's find that xtf setting ;)
[11:10] <Tonio_> hunger, well I will probably change the wallpaper to a green + grey one, in order to remove a bit of blue ;)
[11:10] <Tonio_> kubuntu is simply blue, with blue on blue actually ;)
[11:10] <hunger> Tonio_: I was thinking about the colors of widgets.
[11:11] <Tonio_> hunger: for example ?
[11:11] <hunger> Tonio_: I.e. with tabs the brighter one is the active one while with those side-thingies in kate the active one is the darker one.
[11:11] <hunger> Tonio_: Well, maybe it just messed up the colorscheme locally. Let me check.
[11:12] <Tonio_> raphink: damn, it is horrible :)
[11:12] <Hobbsee> +1 raphink!  i'd forgotten about that one!
[11:12] <Tonio_> raphink: if you can find a replacement for that one, I would implement it with pleasure ;)
[11:12] <raphink> Hobbsee: I've changed most of the sounds in KDE. THey were making me crazy really
[11:12] <raphink> Tonio_: I use the Hmm HMM one
[11:12] <Tonio_> hunger, not sure, but it is not like that on my full-default kubuntu
[11:12] <Hobbsee> i've changed a lot too :D 
[11:12] <raphink> to get attention
[11:12] <raphink> instead of a broken glass
[11:12] <Tonio_> raphink: let find where to change it ;)
[11:13] <Tonio_> raphink: can you try to locate the setting ?
[11:13] <raphink> Tonio_: sure :)
[11:13] <hunger> What is the default color scheme in kubuntu?
[11:13] <raphink> I can try ...
[11:13] <Tonio_> cp -rf .kde .kde2
[11:13] <Tonio_> then change it and diff -ru ;)
[11:13] <Tonio_> I'm searching for the xtf setting
[11:15] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: oh yes - the default settings for conversation - the tab colours - can we set them so that they match xfce?  or are something sane?  seems like they used red for every message - i would think it should be for important messages, like when your nick is directly mentioned.
[11:15] <robotgeek> Tonio_: does that have something to do with xorg.conf dpi?
[11:16] <Hobbsee> *konversation.  i cant spell tonight
[11:19] <robotgeek> Tonio_: http://pastebin.com/559222 maybe line #90?
[11:24] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the default settings actually are to put red only when your name is mentionned ;)
[11:25] <Tonio_> robotgeek: the idea is to set the value for xft.dpi
[11:25] <Tonio_> the problem is that I don't see another way to do it than in Xresources..........
[11:25] <hunger> Tonio_: xft.dpi? What is that?
[11:25] <robotgeek> Tonio_: the link above shows some different techniques
[11:28] <Hobbsee_> ping?
[11:28] <Hobbsee_> Tonio_: ah ok, i thought they changed with the new version, as i remember going and changing them all back!
[11:28] <robotgeek> pong Hobbsee_ 
[11:28] <Hobbsee> good
[11:29] <hunger> Tonio_: Any chance to make the colors of those "sidebottons" in kate ("Documents", "Filesystem Browser", "Terminal", etc.) more consistent with those of the tabs?
[11:29] <Tonio_> hunger: If I have time, why not ;)
[11:30] <hunger> Tonio_: I'll get you a beer if I meet you someplace if you do:-)
[11:30] <Tonio_> Unlike GNOME, KDE provides no native mechanism to adjust font DPI settings. This is quite unfortunate when one considers the amount of font incongruence between Qt and Gtk+ applications. Often the reason behind such inconsistencies is differing DPI settings between the X server, Qt, and Gtk+.
[11:30] <Tonio_> ARGH !!!!!!!!!!!
[11:30] <sealne> does anyone else sometimes get adept updater updateing but then exiting with out giving you the option to upgrade?
[11:30] <hunger> I do not even have xft installed...
[11:31] <Tonio_> hunger, to fix fonts size in with X
[11:31] <hunger> Tonio_: Oh, there is a libxft... I thought you were refering to that font server:-)
[11:31] <hunger> Sorry for my confusion.
[11:32] <Tonio_> hunger nope ;)
[11:34] <robotgeek> ooh..the adept notifier is nice 
[11:34] <hunger> Tonio_: That lib does not contain the string "dpi". Are you sure it will react to that setting?
[11:34] <Tonio_> hunger
[11:34] <Tonio_> yes hunger ;)
[11:35] <hunger> Tonio_: The Xserver is set to 100dpi for both kde and gnome. Isen't that enough?
[11:35] <Tonio_> hunger: we are talking about default settings
[11:35] <Tonio_> that is not default
[11:35] <Tonio_> that is YOURS settings ;)
[11:35] <hunger> Tonio_: It is in gdm.
[11:36] <Tonio_> hunger, in gdm, but the same setting doesn't exist in kdm
[11:36] <Tonio_> can you paste me the line ?
[11:36] <Tonio_> are they forcing dpi or xft.dpi ? that not the same thing
[11:37] <Tonio_> hunger ?
[11:38] <hunger> Tonio_: Tonio_: You are right... gdm does not start the Xserver with the use-100dpi-if-you-do-not-know-better.
[11:38] <Tonio_> yes, according to what I know, they are setting the xft.dpi to 96 somewhere, but I don't know exactly
[11:38] <hunger> Tonio_: Well, I force my dpi setting in xorg.conf:-) So X has the same settings independent of what I run:-)
[11:41] <hunger> Tonio_: How can I find out my xfs.dpi setting?
[11:41] <Tonio_> hunger: documentations are refering to a /etc/X11/Xresources file
[11:41] <Tonio_> bu I have a folder there.......
[11:42] <Tonio_> certainly a difference in the latest versions
[11:43] <hunger> Tonio_: There is nothing about dpi in mine.
[11:43] <hunger> But how can I read out that setting in a running X server?
[11:43] <mornfall> sealne: how that?
[11:44] <Tm_T> Riddell: btw, someone mentioned about mac mini sound problem that there's "fix" to it
[11:44] <Tm_T> Riddell: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=306&d=1107512164
[11:44] <Tm_T> can't test myself though
[11:44] <robotgeek> Tm_T: does it use snapper? or something else?
[11:45] <Tm_T> no idea
[11:45] <Tm_T> what is snapper?
[11:45] <sealne> mornfall: maybe 1 in 5 times when there are updates adept updater will just close after updating but not giving you the button to click for upgrading, seems a bit random, if i then run it again it is fine, never manged to get it to do it twice in a row :-/
[11:45] <robotgeek> Tm_T: the soundcard in there
[11:46] <Tm_T> ok
[11:46] <mornfall> sealne: are you sure it's not crashing? :)
[11:47] <sealne> nope not sure :)
[11:47] <mornfall> sealne: if it disappears after update without doing anything, then it is
[11:47] <freeflying> Tm_T: will you give the thread that guy publish on forum ?
[11:47] <Tm_T> freeflying: no idea, I just got that link
[11:47] <mornfall> sealne: (disappears as does not wait for you clicking quit)
[11:47] <freeflying> Tm_T: I'd try it 
[11:47] <Tm_T> freeflying: I'll ask where that is mentioned :)
[11:47] <freeflying> Tm_T: thx
[11:48] <freeflying> Tm_T: I'm tied of that problem
[11:48] <sealne> mornfall: from .xsession-errors but not sure if its adept giving the error http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/559250
[11:48] <sealne> probably unrelated
[11:49] <mornfall> that's just the notifier
[11:49] <sealne> mornfall: i'd forgoten it should give the quit button so yeah must be crashing
[11:49] <mornfall> sealne: okey, then it's probably fixed for beta :-)
[11:51] <Tonio_> FIND IT !!!!!!!
[11:51] <Tm_T> freeflying: that was mentioned in sfnet news, soo no idea where's that in forums
[11:52] <Tonio_> ah no, not that one........ grmpf
[11:52] <freeflying> Tm_T:  :(
[11:58] <Hobbsee> who was it that was saying that they had no wireless problems again?
[11:58] <Hobbsee> lucky
[11:59] <sealne> Hobbsee: the akregator man page in debian looks fine could it be used?
[11:59] <Hobbsee> sealne: i would expect so, i havent had a look
[11:59] <Hobbsee> the bug was reported back in 3.4.3 
[12:00] <Hobbsee> i just went thru the unassigned bugs for kde programs to find interesting bits and pieces that might still be relevant
[12:00] <Hobbsee> sealne: you want to patch it?
[12:00] <freeflying> robotgeek: it seems that I still can not use wireless and also sound 
[12:01] <sealne> is the manpage from upstream?
[12:01] <robotgeek> freeflying: i can definetly help you with the wireless, sound probably not
[12:01] <Hobbsee> not sure
[12:01] <freeflying> robotgeek: I've done as the wiki tell , but will not work
[12:01] <sealne> Hobbsee: i'll look at it
[12:01] <Hobbsee> ok
[12:01] <robotgeek> freeflying: did you get the firmware correctly?
[12:02] <freeflying> robotgeek: I copy it from OSX
[12:02] <robotgeek> freeflying: let me give you a copy of mine, maybe that will help
[12:02] <freeflying> robotgeek: plz mail me zhengpeng.hou AT gmail DOR com
[12:02] <freeflying> s/DOR/DOT
[12:06] <Hobbsee> sealne: http://packages.debian.net/unstable/akregator - i went searching cos i got curious
[12:06] <robotgeek> freeflying: sent
[12:08] <Tonio_> hum, the xft.dpi settings is something that kde isn't possible to manage, like gnome does........;
[12:08] <Tonio_> damn.......;
[12:08] <freeflying> robotgeek: got it . it's same s me , anyone , thx 
[12:09] <Hobbsee> sealne: it's screwed in debian as well....
[12:09] <Hobbsee> i cant believe this bug...
[12:09] <robotgeek> freeflying: try to run "tail -f /var/log/syslog" while running this script http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8772
[12:10] <sealne> Hobbsee: yeah fine in sarge tho
[12:10] <Hobbsee> oh good - you want to patch, or will i?
[12:11] <sealne> i'll have a go
[12:11] <Hobbsee> ok :)
[12:11] <mornfall> what do you think? http://lorien.mornfall.net:8012/m/adept-manager-usability.png
[12:11] <Hobbsee> mornfall: what in particular?
[12:12] <Hobbsee> and what the heck is full upgrade?  i've *never* understood the difference between that and apply changes
[12:12] <Riddell> mornfall: it's better than the current "Install" but it still sounds a bit too much like "please computer do as I say"
[12:13] <Hobbsee> hehe that too
[12:13] <Hobbsee> morning Riddell!
[12:13] <Riddell> morning Hobbsee 
[12:13] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i have a question.
[12:13] <Riddell> Hobbsee: full upgrade does an upgrde, apply changes installs the packages you've asked
[12:13] <mornfall> *sigh*
[12:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: bad news
[12:13] <Tonio_> we can't set the xft.dpi within kde directly
[12:14] <Riddell> Tonio_: why not?
[12:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: gnome offers that possibility but not KDE
[12:14] <Riddell> Hobbsee: ask away?
[12:14] <Tonio_> let me copy past
[12:14] <Hobbsee> why dont the bugs in packages like kde-pim, kde-network, etc automatically get assigned to kubuntu team?  i would think this logical
[12:14] <mornfall> so someone give me the exact sounding of the texts and i'll use it
[12:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://pastebin.com/559274
[12:14] <Riddell> mornfall: "Mark for Install" is my choice
[12:14] <Tonio_> 2 hours searching on the net....
[12:15] <Hobbsee> or even mark for installation
[12:15] <Tonio_> so the only possibility is to get the setting in ~/.Xresources
[12:15] <Hobbsee> if you want to have correct grammar :P
[12:15] <mornfall> Riddell: and the terminology for filters? column title?
[12:15] <mornfall> upgrade
[12:16] <mornfall> removing marks?
[12:16] <Riddell> Tonio_: so we have to find out how gnome-settings-daemon does it and do the same thing in startkde or somewhere
[12:16] <mornfall> (keep -> "cancel changes" for button)
[12:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum........ note that I'm not sure the ubuntu crew is using that for gnome...
[12:18] <Riddell> Tonio_: using what?
[12:18] <mornfall> bah i should have selected different job
[12:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: I think we first need to know exactly where and how is the ubuntu gnome setting the xft.dpi
[12:18] <Tonio_> no ?
[12:18] <Riddell> Hobbsee: good question
[12:18] <Tonio_> there are many ways to get that set.... for example in /etc/X11/Xresources file, in X configuration etc...
[12:19] <Riddell> mornfall: Mark for Upgrade?
[12:19] <Riddell> Tonio_: it does it in gnome-settings-daemon
[12:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay
[12:19] <Tonio_> let grab the soruces ;)
[12:19] <Tonio_> sources
[12:19] <mornfall> now give me the remaining texts
[12:19] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ah yes, i have a second question.  about the bugs that were from kde 3.4.2 and former - do we want to just mark them as closed, then let people reopen if the issue still exists?  there are a heck of a lot of bugs there that probably are fixed in newer versions of the packages
[12:20] <robotgeek> Tonio_: apt-get source gnome-control-center and look in gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-settings-xsettings.c
[12:20] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i *think* that was all the questions i had from browsing around launchpad today :D
[12:20] <Riddell> Hobbsee: if we can't recreate the problem in 3.5 then politely close it
[12:20] <Hobbsee> Riddell: any way to do it automatically, from a certain date and backwards?
[12:21] <robotgeek> freeflying: any luck yet?
[12:21] <Riddell> Hobbsee: no, we have to manually check if the problem still exists, that's the only way
[12:21] <Hobbsee> Riddell: grrr...ok then
[12:21] <Hobbsee> longest bugs are only 43 weeks old...lol
[12:21] <freeflying> robotgeek: I can not test on it now , for I have not wireless environment now . :)
[12:22] <robotgeek> freeflying: ah, okay. :)
[12:22] <freeflying> robotgeek: how about sound on your box 
[12:22] <mornfall> bah, i shall just step down as adept maintainer after 2.0... this is not fun anymore; i can't do much better than i already do, and that's apparently not good enough
[12:22] <robotgeek> freeflying: works fine with 2.6.15-15 , not before that
[12:23] <Riddell> mornfall: I'm not sure what other text needs changed
[12:23] <Riddell> mornfall: you do a great job!
[12:24] <freeflying> robotgeek: y, I use this one 
[12:24] <mornfall> bah rsibreak => broken
[12:24] <robotgeek> freeflying: which one?
[12:24] <mornfall> Riddell: other texts: status filter (it talks about requested changes), the "Requested" column... it's not consistent with "Mark for..." actions
[12:25] <freeflying> robotgeek: 2.6.15-15-powerpc
[12:25] <robotgeek> freeflying: hmm, let me see what sound device i have, somehow it doesn't show up in lspci
[12:26] <mornfall> (the terminology would look like "not marked" and "Marked for" column (which looks wrong to me)
[12:28] <robotgeek> freeflying: cat /proc/asound/cards
[12:29] <Hobbsee> crumbs...we have bugs from hoary here!
[12:29] <Riddell> hmm, I didn't see the request column before
[12:29] <Riddell> ah, used to be Action
[12:30] <Tonio_> Riddell: if a file .bla is in ~/
[12:30] <mornfall> action is not consistent either
[12:31] <Tonio_> I am supposed to be able to put it in the /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings/kde-profile/default folder no ?
[12:31] <Tonio_> simply removing the "dot"
[12:31] <Tonio_> cause if yes, xft.dpi setting is very easy to force ;)
[12:31] <Riddell> Tonio_: no
[12:32] <Riddell> only KDE looks there
[12:32] <mornfall> also, i don't think that sounding "please computer do Foo" has much to do with usability
[12:32] <sealne> Hobbsee: what should i actually be producing for the akregator problem? the man page is debian/man/akregator.man so all it really needs is replaced before being rebuilt? http://www2.duffus.org/tmp/akregator.man
[12:32] <mornfall> not to mention that it's not like the user was in control -- we will do as good as we can considering his requests, but nothing more
[12:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: not kdm ?
[12:32] <Hobbsee> sealne: and update the changelog, saying that you changed the manpage, yeah
[12:32] <mornfall> (ie, as much as the user would like, we can't install package that is 404)
[12:32] <Riddell> mornfall: you are now convincing me that request is a good idea
[12:33] <Riddell> this always happens when I discuss something with mornfall :)
[12:33] <Riddell> Tonio_: but not kdm, just to be annoying
[12:33] <mornfall> i am giving my rationale for using request
[12:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: argh..... in fact the best way to let xft.dpi set is by a .Xresources file in ~/
[12:34] <Tonio_> all documentations are referring to that
[12:34] <robotgeek> Tonio_: that did not seem to work, though
[12:34] <mornfall> #openusability does not react, as usual
[12:35] <Riddell> yeah, we need to get those people using kubuntu
[12:35] <Riddell> off their suse habit
[12:35] <Tonio_> robotgeek: the ~/.Xresources file ?
[12:35] <robotgeek> maybe i echoed wrong
[12:36] <Riddell> Tonio_: how does gnome-settings-daemon do it?
[12:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: need to grab the sources ;) just wait a few minutes
[12:37] <Riddell> Hobbsee: kdepim bugs do seem to get assigned to kubuntu-team, e.g. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/+bug/31049
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Riddell: argh, that's not what i saw earlier...*searches more*
[12:39] <freeflying-ibook> I can hardly use adept , after run it , it seems it freeze 
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Riddell: see https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdenetwork/+bugs - first bug is not assigned
[12:42] <Hobbsee> hey does someone have a yahoo id that i can test with, for a min?  just to add?
[12:42] <Hobbsee> kopete wont let you add yourself - pity!
[12:42] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: venkatraghavan_vc @ yahoo .com
[12:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: ./gnome-settings-xsettings.c:  settings->dpi = 96 * 1024;
[12:43] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: and are you online?
[12:43] <Tonio_> I need to investigate more, it is not a simple script, the source code has a bunch of files....
[12:43] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: yup, only invisible i think. let me appear :)
[12:44] <Hobbsee> that'd be cool - it's a little hard to test otherwise!
[12:44] <sealne> Hobbsee: http://stuff.duffus.org/tmp/kdepim/
[12:44] <Hobbsee> sealne: where's the .orig.tar.gz?
[12:44] <Riddell> Hobbsee: the malone dude isn't around to ask, I'll poke him when he is
[12:44] <Hobbsee> Riddell: excellent
[12:44] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: i have appeared :)
[12:45] <Hobbsee> i see you not - can you message me?  hobbsee1
[12:45] <Hobbsee> this be weird
[12:45] <sealne> Hobbsee: there now
[12:45] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: on the ibook?
[12:45] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: y
[12:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: according to what I understant, there is nothing written on the disk the daemon does everything on the fly, and the dpi setting is hardcoded...
[12:45] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: can you attach gdb and get the backtrace?
[12:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: there is no config file for that....
[12:46] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: it dosen't crash 
[12:46] <sealne> Hobbsee: does that look ok? i'm just off to the gym so if not i'll look when i get back
[12:46] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: so?
[12:46] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: gdb . <pid>
[12:46] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: then bt
[12:46] <Hobbsee> Riddell: http://stuff.duffus.org/tmp/kdepim/ has links to the fixed version of kdepim - with the correct manpage of akregator.  do you want a debdiff of this, and attach it to the bug report, or just attach the link to the bug report?
[12:47] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: just freeze 
[12:47] <mornfall> but i want the bt
[12:47] <mornfall> it does not need to crash for getting bt
[12:47] <mornfall> i can't do anything without it anyway
[12:47] <mornfall> as i don't have the hardware
[12:47] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: crash!
[12:48] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: you're still online?  or your program died?
[12:48] <robotgeek> kopete died, i'm generating a backtrace
[12:48] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: no stack
[12:48] <mornfall> "no stack"? that's what gdb says?
[12:48] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: ok lol
[12:50] <Riddell> Hobbsee: yeah, debdiff would be perfect
[12:50] <Riddell> Hobbsee: what's the beastie  number?
[12:50] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: there's a race in the threading code in the released version... does not manifest on x86 and is fixed in beta...
[12:50] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: it may or may not be it
[12:50] <Hobbsee> i'll have to go search for it, give me a sec
[12:50] <Hobbsee> just manhandling kopete here
[12:51] <robotgeek> damn thing crashed again!
[12:51] <robotgeek> oh wait, that's my breezy box (kde 3.5.1)
[12:51] <Hobbsee> you're kidding!
[12:52] <Hobbsee> when'd it crash?  before or after i signed out?
[12:52] <robotgeek> i saw you sign in, and boom!
[12:53] <Hobbsee> man that's a weird bug!
[12:54] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: you could try getting libapt-front and adept from svn, but if you want to, let me know first -- so i sync them
[12:55] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: maybe I'll try , but now I'd have test the Chinese support on dapper 
[12:55] <Tonio_> okay Riddell , the gnome-settings-daemin is sending the Xft.dpi value to X via XSETTINGS
[12:56] <Tonio_> there is an application called kde-xsettings, that we don't have, and that might allow about the same thing
[12:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://cvs.mandriva.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/soft/xsettings-kde/
[12:56] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: well, let me know before you try
[12:56] <Tonio_> but implementing all of this is maybe a bit too late for dapper no ?
[12:57] <mornfall> what's on svn.kde.org is ages old
[12:57] <Hobbsee> Riddell: bug 30753
[12:58] <Hobbsee> is the beasty for akregator having the wrong man page
[01:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: in xsettings-kde :  * Xft/DPI => to be done
[01:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: it is not implemented so far........
[01:00] <Riddell> fooey
[01:09] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: ?
[01:09] <Hobbsee> robotgeek: are you online or offline now?
[01:09] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: offline
[01:09] <Hobbsee> that'd be why, then
[01:10] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: i tht you said quitting?
[01:10] <Hobbsee> i did, dont worry
[01:12] <Hobbsee> i meant that i was quitting
[01:12] <robotgeek> Hobbsee: cool
[01:14] <robotgeek> later, work to do
[01:18] <Hobbsee> Riddell: what's the syntax for creating a debdiff, and outputting it to a file?  debdiff *.dsc?
[01:20] <Hobbsee> excellent, its debdiff *.dsc > akregator.debdiff  
[01:21] <Hobbsee> Riddell: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/+bug/30753  :D
[01:22] <raphink> Hobbsee: you need two dsc to create a debdiff
[01:22] <Hobbsee> raphink: indeed, i did :)
[01:22] <raphink> Hobbsee: debdiff originalpackage.dsc newpackage.dsc > package.debdiff
[01:22] <raphink> Hobbsee: good girl :)
[01:22] <Hobbsee> can you check i got the right thing though?
[01:23] <raphink> it looks like a valid debdiff Hobbsee 
[01:23] <Hobbsee> cool :)
[01:23] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: hi
[01:23] <raphink> hi freeflying-ibook 
[01:24] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: u've said u would help me on check a dpatch of mine 
[01:24] <raphink> freeflying-ibook: oh yes! sorry :(
[01:25] <Hobbsee> that manpage got stolen from debian sarge, so i've got no idea how good it is or not
[01:25] <raphink> it's in my "messages to answer" box
[01:25] <raphink> lol
[01:25] <raphink> sorry, really
[01:25] <raphink> Hobbsee: s/stolen/synced/
[01:25] <raphink> :)
[01:25] <Hobbsee> was wrong in dapper too...
[01:25] <Hobbsee> but the old sarge version was correct, so sealne put it in :)
[01:26] <raphink> freeflying-ibook: what exactly do you want me to check in this diff?
[01:27] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: it can't be patched 
[01:27] <raphink> brb
[01:30] <raphink> freeflying-ibook: you mean the patch fails?
[01:30] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: y
[01:30] <raphink> hmm
[01:30] <raphink> how did you make the patch?
[01:31] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: I've tried use dpatch-edit and manually 
[01:31] <raphink> and this one was done ...
[01:31] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: but they will not work
[01:31] <raphink> manually or using dpatch-edit?
[01:32] <raphink> ah
[01:32] <freeflying-ibook> daptch-edit
[01:32] <raphink> what do you get during build ?
[01:32] <freeflying-ibook> file can't be found 
[01:33] <raphink> is it in debian/patches/
[01:33] <freeflying-ibook> sure
[01:34] <raphink> do you have the 00list too?
[01:34] <freeflying-ibook> it seems dpatch try to use it , but can not find the target file
[01:34] <raphink> are you sure the name in 00list is right?
[01:35] <freeflying-ibook> raphink: if 00list is wrong ,will dpatch work ?
[01:35] <raphink> I think it might work and not find the file
[01:36] <raphink> just as you tell me it fails
[01:36] <freeflying-ibook> y
[01:54] <Hobbsee> Riddell: oh well, gotten rid of some of the bugs in kdenetwork  :)  If you could do something with the debdiff at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/+bug/30753 that would be great
[01:54] <Hobbsee> night all
[02:49] <jpatrick> guys?
[02:49] <Riddell> sealne: akregator fix uploaded, thanks
[02:50] <Riddell> jpatrick?
[02:50] <jpatrick> Riddell: not sure what was wanted but will https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings/16-02-06 do?
[02:52] <Riddell> jpatrick: perfect
[02:52] <jpatrick> :)
[02:53] <jpatrick> Arg, wiki died again
[02:54] <Riddell> try now
[02:55] <jpatrick> now
[02:56] <jpatrick> should I send to mailing lists? (kubuntu-devel & -users) ?
[03:07] <raphink> jpatrick: wow you were fast
[03:08] <jpatrick> raphink: took like 10 mins last night
[03:08] <jpatrick> now, why won't kasablanca download......
[03:08] <jpatrick> ah, it is
[03:38] <sealne> to produce that debdiff that Hobbsee created what should i have done?
[03:45] <jpatrick> what debdiff
[03:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: have a minute to make a point on xft.dpi ? that'll not be long ;)
[03:47] <Riddell> Tonio_: hmm?
[03:47] <Riddell> sealne: debdiff old.dsc new.dsc
[03:47] <Tonio_> Riddell: so the gnome daemon fixes the xft.dpi via XSETTINGS
[03:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: this is not managed by kde neither kdm
[03:48] <Riddell> what is XSETTINGS?
[03:48] <Tonio_> there is a redhat development maintained by mandriva, called xsettings-kde, that does about the same
[03:48] <Tonio_> according to what I understood it is a protocol to configure X
[03:49] <Tonio_> the mandriva application mensions in the sources that xft.dpi isn't implemented for the moment
[03:49] <Tonio_> could be a good base for dapper + 1
[03:49] <Tonio_> but I don't think the way gnome does is implementable for dapper
[03:49] <sealne> Riddell: ah, thanks i'll know for next time
[03:50] <Riddell> Tonio_: ok, thanks for investigating that
[03:50] <Tonio_> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-app-devel-list/2002-August/msg00297.html
[03:51] <jjesse> Riddell: just wanted to update you that it looks like the doc team is aiming to get the kubuntu desktop guide done in time for doc freeze date
[03:51] <Tonio_> FYI, the protocol is implemented directly with gtk
[03:51] <Riddell> jjesse: that would be awesome
[03:52] <robotgeek> :)
[03:52] <jjesse> Riddell: that is the hope, we have 3 people working on it
[03:52] <Riddell> jjesse: I think desktop guide should be the priority (besides release notes)
[03:52] <Tonio_> Riddell: so my opinion is to keep a look on xsettings-kde for dapper +1, search a bit if there is another solution, and there is no other one, settings dpi to 96 within kdmrc, and work on the other solution for dapper + 1
[03:52] <jjesse> Riddell: it is, release notes, about kubuntu (which is "done") and also desktop guide
[03:52] <Tonio_> Riddell: are you fine with this ?
[03:53] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'm hesitant to do it directly within kdmrc
[03:53] <Riddell> I wonder how suse does it
[03:53] <Tonio_> Riddell: I understand, but between that and nothing.........
[03:53] <Tonio_> hum, I may check, but I think they are fixing the full dpi....
[03:53] <Tonio_> like mandriva does
[03:54] <Tonio_> let me check
[03:54] <Riddell> ah, well if other distros do it...
[03:54] <Tonio_> anyway the xsettings-kde is a good way to go for dapper+1
[03:55] <Tonio_> well, I better not saying that, but the kdmrc dpi fixing is the "standard solution", although the method is really dirty
[03:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: mandiva is fixing xft.dpi within xinitrc
[03:59] <_Sime> hi all.
[03:59] <Tonio_> but the file is in /etc and patching it is a policy violation.... other solution is to get it modified via the xorg package, but that's a dream I think :)
[03:59] <Tonio_> don't find the information concerning suee
[03:59] <Tonio_> suse
[04:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: here is the source for the mandriva package that fixes xft.dpi : http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/mandriva/2006.0/i586/media/delta_main/xinitrc-2.4.14-1mdk.noarch.html
[04:01] <jjesse> should i download today's daily build or wait for flight4
[04:07] <_Sime> Tonio_: actually DPI is a real PITA. esp when changing resolution on the fly.
[04:07] <_Sime> Tonio_: also at boot time. If you don't have the monitor connected then Xorg can't fetch the screen dimensions from the monitor.
[04:08] <Riddell> _Sime: we know it is :)
[04:08] <_Sime> I come across this problem *all* the time now. :-)
[04:08] <Tonio_> _Sime: this is the reason we're searching for a solution...
[04:08] <_Sime> Riddell: can we have the "Restart X server" option add to kdm?
[04:09] <Tonio_> _Sime: the big problem is that the best method isn't supported by kde
[04:09] <_Sime> Tonio_: that XSETTINGS thing?
[04:09] <Tonio_> only gnome does
[04:09] <Tonio_> absolutly :)
[04:09] <_Sime> I haven't seen it before until just now.
[04:09] <Tonio_> there is an application for this, but the sources mention that xft.dpi isn't actually supported
[04:10] <Riddell> it's debateable if that is the "best" method, either is valid
[04:10] <_Sime> would Qt4 be able to support this kind of thing?
[04:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: it is the "best" in the way it "just works" and is "clean"
[04:10] <_Sime> I think that qt does the fonts at app startup time.
[04:10] <_Sime> and may not support having the dpi changed on the fly,.
[04:11] <Tonio_> of course the ideal thing would be to let xorg manage, but we know there are hundreds of issues with it...
[04:11] <Tonio_> http://cvs.mandriva.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/soft/xsettings-kde/
[04:11] <Tonio_> here is the source for xsettings-kde
[04:12] <Tonio_> _Sime: the problem is that most people are using gtk apps under kde
[04:12] <jpatrick> no stable release?
[04:12] <Tonio_> so simply a QT setting will not do the full job
[04:12] <_Sime> I'm thinking more of whether it could be done on KDE.
[04:12] <Tonio_> jpatrick: there is version 0.2, but xft.dpi isn't implemented...
[04:12] <_Sime> Gtk will have to look after itself. ;)
[04:13] <jpatrick> Tonio_: ok
[04:13] <Tonio_> jpatrick: from the sources :  * Xft/DPI => to be done
[04:13] <Tonio_> but that might be a good dirction for dapper+1
[04:15] <Tonio_> there is a simple method, which is to create a ~/.Xresource file containg Xft.dpi = 96
[04:16] <Tonio_> that works fine either, but it is not easy to manage for all profiles automatically
[04:16] <_Sime> that Xresource trick, does that work for GTK and KDE apps?
[04:17] <Tonio_> _Sime: yep
[04:17] <_Sime> mmmm
[04:17] <Tonio_> didn't test personnaly, but at least documentations say that
[04:18] <_Sime> I'm a bit late to the party here. But is the problem that we don't have time to change the default Xorg config for dapper??
[04:19] <Tonio_> _Sime: there are 2 probleme
[04:19] <Tonio_> 1/ it is too late
[04:19] <jpatrick> why does uic keep saying "Session management error: Could not open network socket"?
[04:19] <Tonio_> 2/ xorg is managed by canonical that also manages gnome and has it's own working solution
[04:20] <Tonio_> there is no reason they would completly change that....
[04:20] <Tonio_> that's the reason we wanted to copy the gnome/ubuntu way to do, but there is no valid solution for the moment
[04:23] <_Sime> but the solution is just to add Xft.dpi to ~/.Xresources or to /etc/X11/Xresources ??? (kind of?)
[04:24] <_Sime> isn't that stuff loaded at login time with the xrdb command?
[04:25] <allee> dpi? hah! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AchimBohnet
[04:25] <Tonio_> _Sime: if /etc/X11/Xresources exists, it can be added directly there
[04:25] <Tonio_> the problem is that Xresources on ubuntu isn't a file but a folder
[04:26] <jpatrick> allee: :)
[04:26] <_Sime> mmmm okeeeey
[04:26] <_Sime> Tonio_: how is that a problem?
[04:26] <Tonio_> and I didn't find any info on where to put thesetting in that case
[04:26] <Tonio_> simply that ;)
[04:26] <allee> hi jpatrick 
[04:26] <_Sime> Tonio_: why can't we just load Xft.dpi=96 using xrdb at login time? with a script?
[04:26] <Tonio_> hy allee 
[04:27] <jpatrick> allee: Am I cleared to upload kmplayer? :)
[04:27] <Tonio_> _Sime: because that would conflict with the ubuntu way to do
[04:27] <Tonio_> and they will probably not change this because of us like that....
[04:27] <allee> jpatrick: Good but I doubt I find time before saturday night :(
[04:27] <Tonio_> they have a good way to do that just works....
[04:28] <_Sime> Tonio_: ok, you mean that if we use Xft.dpi for kde, then the GTK apps will b0rk?
[04:28] <jpatrick> allee: don't worry I have until next wenesday
[04:28] <Riddell> go mandriva:
[04:28] <Riddell> ! Fix the Xft dpi to 96; this prevents tiny fonts
[04:28] <Riddell> ! or HUGE fonts depending on the screen size.
[04:28] <Riddell> Xft.dpi: 90
[04:28] <mornfall> haha
[04:28] <mornfall> anyhow, fixed dpi > random screen-size-based dpi
[04:29] <mornfall> it should probably go nearest-useful-dpi
[04:29] <allee> I should not be here at all.  But I installed a new laptop enjoyed unreadable fonts due to wrong (hardcoded dpi) and could not resist
[04:29] <mornfall> where useful is defined as something that does not make most fonts look crap
[04:30] <Tonio_> Riddell: and mandriva does that within xinitrc
[04:30] <Riddell> so I see
[04:30] <Riddell> well shrug, maybe we should just do it in kdmrc then
[04:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: well, do you think it is possible to have the setting in the xinit package maybe ?
[04:33] <Tonio_> that may cause a little debate, cause that will certainly affect all *buntu versions........
[04:33] <Tonio_> but in a certain way, it is cleaner than the kdmrc method.... and that sets not the full dpi, but xft.dpi only...
[04:34] <_Sime> can't we just drop a script in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ that sets Xft.dpi=96 using xrdb at login time if kdm is in use.
[04:39] <Tonio_> _Sime: it appears the xft.dpi setting cannot be set like that... otherwise it would be a X command line option
[04:40] <Tonio_> apparently, there is a protocol that allow to set that value (xsettings), and the Xresources file....
[04:40] <Tonio_> there is no other ways to set it
[04:40] <Tonio_> it is not like dpi=96, which you can set in many ways...
[04:40] <Tonio_> that can sound messy, but all documentations are saying the same (and I read about 10 today...)
[04:41] <Tonio_> but if you have another source, why not, of course :)
[04:42] <_Sime> i was just playing on my dapper test machine with xrdb.
[04:42] <_Sime> loading Xft.dpi: 50 or Xft.dpi: 50 take affect on newly started KDE apps.
[04:43] <allee> Propsal: (I offer to write the script).  In kdmrc we use a script that outputs the X -dpi .... cmd line.  The script does:
[04:43] <allee> a) scan Xorg.0.log if display size was detected
[04:43] <allee> if yes -> X is started without dpi setting
[04:44] <_Sime> what is the gnome xterm program called?
[04:44] <allee> if not  Check for a file or start kdialog that asks for X and Y in mm/inch and output this
[04:44] <Tonio_> allee: hum........; and when it is badly detected ? that happens very often too...
[04:44] <raphink> _Sime: hmmm gnome-terminal ?
[04:44] <allee> b) runs a gtk tool that setts Xft.dpi to the chosen dpi value
[04:45] <_Sime> I want to try this out on some GTK apps.
[04:45] <allee> Tonio_: I've never seen something.  Either the read / use display size from DDC info or not
[04:45] <Tonio_> hum, okay ;)
[04:46] <Tonio_> allee: here is another method, via xinitrc
[04:46] <allee> c) if everything fails  set dpi to 96 dpi
[04:46] <Tonio_> whose result is exactly the same than the gnome method
[04:46] <Tonio_> allee: http://pastebin.com/559661
[04:47] <Tonio_> adding this to xinitrc will give the same result than the gnome way to do
[04:47] <allee> Tonio_: use xserver setup not a tools later
[04:47] <Tonio_> allee: you mean ?
[04:47] <allee> if the xserver gets it right all xapps  use it automaticly independend show the session is started
[04:48] <allee> Even better would be DisplaySize in xorg.conf but that too later for dapper. maybe even dapper+1 depending on xorg driver devels
[04:49] <Tonio_> allee: hum.... certainly, but well, I have personnal examples of xorg bad detection
[04:49] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'd be scared to do that, breaking non-KDE wouldn't be good for me
[04:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: sure, that why I asked :)
[04:50] <allee> I don't know about thei xft.dpi. So question:  If we set xftp.dpi to same as real dpi (via a gtk tool) and ...
[04:51] <allee> kde and gnome use same font and size, look the identical?
[04:51] <Riddell> allee: yes, correct
[04:51] <allee> GOOD
[04:51] <Riddell> but then it breaks if your detected DPI is incorrect
[04:51] <Riddell> which happens quite a lot
[04:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: +
[04:51] <allee> a upstream mentioned here to include a style that automaticly transfers qt settings into gtk setting when used
[04:52] <allee> someone remember what style this was?
[04:52] <Riddell> gtk-qt-engine?
[04:52] <Riddell> qtcurve probably
[04:52] <Tonio_> ah !! nope it is another one
[04:52] <Tonio_> allee: the problem is that it transfers the font value, not the dpi one
[04:53] <allee> I thought this style does it?
[04:54] <Tonio_> don't think so... anyway, most people want to change the style, so configuring desktop arround a specific style is a bit problematic no ?
[04:54] <allee> Tonio_: goes gnome use pt or pixel for fonts size
[04:54] <allee> +?
[04:54] <allee> Tonio_: we are talking about the default setup
[04:55] <Tonio_> allee: + because I that bad detection happens a lot (according to my own experience...)
[04:55] <allee> Tonio_: here the 'bad detection' is always wrong detection aka fall back to 75 dpi
[04:55] <allee> Tonio_: feel free to send me the xorg.0.conf
[04:55] <Tonio_> allee: yes, that's right, but if changing the theme causes fonts problems, that might sound messy for users I think
[04:56] <allee> Tonio_: I've several radeons and intel buildin graphics at all got it wrong
[04:56] <Tonio_> allee: well I don't habe the machine here, but I may send it to you when possible, okay ;)
[04:57] <allee> Tonio_: great. thx.  Pleas add also the real physical dimension and dots in x and y
[04:58] <Tonio_> yep, no pb ;) my girlfriend has a iiyama screen that causes that problem ;)
[04:58] <allee> Question: Would be on first kdm a dialog that asks for  X and Y in mm/cm/inch be acceptable?
[04:58] <allee> iijama?  Hah!  Our 19'' TFT have totally crazy resolution infos in DCC!!
[04:59] <Tonio_> it is a 17 CRT
[04:59] <allee> ^^ 19'' is from Iijama
[05:00] <allee> Tonio_: Hui Lu (sp?) once debugged with me a radeon driver.  This could handle the Iijama 17'' and 19'' perfectly
[05:00] <Tonio_> allee: ah cool ;) the problem is that I don't my girlfriend partching the driver sources and compiling it ^^
[05:01] <Tonio_> allee: my question is, wouldn't it be more interesting for someone knowing C to add the xft/dpi fonction to the xsettings-kde mandriva's application ?
[05:01] <Tonio_> this way we would perfectly feet the ubuntu mecanism...
[05:02] <allee> I first heard about xsettings-kde when you mentioned it here
[05:02] <Tonio_> allee: well I discovered it this morning, while investigatingon the gnome way to do
[05:02] <allee> I don't know how this x xtentions work, but why use a new tool?   gnome set it somehow
[05:03] <allee> so lets use the same tool to set it to the value (hopefully the correct value) that kde uses
[05:03] <Tonio_> allee: if it is possible to use the gnome tool without gnome depandancies issues, of course ;)
[05:03] <Tonio_> allee: the problem is that "the tool" is a daemon
[05:03] <Tonio_> that depends all gnome
[05:04] <Tonio_> it doesn't set that once, but everytime gnome is launcged
[05:04] <Tonio_> launched
[05:04] <allee> Tonio_: yeah, and we start this tool too in kdm startup.
[05:04] <Tonio_> I haven't read about a binary that could set the value with a simple command
[05:05] <allee> Tonio_: this tool must be very basic glib/gtk.  So it will not pull in nautilus
[05:05] <Tonio_> allee: here is the file : gnome-control-center: usr/bin/gnome-settings-daemon
[05:05] <Tonio_> I don't think it is a "basic binary"
[05:06] <Tonio_> ;)
[05:06] <allee> Tonio_: if we find the glib/gtk call, a new littel wrapper should not be longer that some dozend of lines
[05:08] <Tonio_> allee: yes but how to get the lib/tool on kde without creatting a depandancy issue ?
[05:09] <allee> Tonio_: gnome lauched, means on login to gnome session, or every gnome app ask the daemon what the value of xft.dpi will be?
[05:09] <_Sime> Tonio_: what does zsettings-kde have to do? a) set the DPI using XSETTINGS for the benifit of gnome apps, b) get changes from gnome-control-thing and set Xft.dpi for the kde apps?
[05:10] <Tonio_> allee: nope, according to what I understood, XSETTINGS if a protocol to configure X on the fly
[05:10] <Tonio_> and there is an implementation of that protocol for gnome while there is not for kde
[05:10] <allee> sounds like obsure xrandr like extention
[05:10] <Tonio_> xsettings-kde aims to be a kde implementation of that protocol
[05:11] <Tonio_> ./gnome-settings-xsettings.c:  settings->dpi = 96 * 1024;
[05:11] <Riddell> mornfall: app-install-data is in
[05:11] <Tonio_> here is the exact line where the dpi is set for gnome
[05:12] <allee> Tonio: can you point me to the various tar balls?  (I've downloaded gnome-control-center already)
[05:13] <Tonio_> allee: it is in gnome-control-center
[05:13] <Tonio_> cd gnome-settings-daemon
[05:13] <allee> and XSETTINGS
[05:13] <allee> +?
[05:13] <Tonio_> allee: did search at the moment
[05:13] <Tonio_> it seems it is implemented directly in gtk2
[05:13] <Tonio_> let me search
[05:14] <mornfall> Riddell: ok, i'll look at it when home
[05:14] <mornfall> --> home
[05:14] <mornfall> laters
[05:14] <Tonio_> allee: fyi -> http://www.freedesktop.org/Standards/xsettings-spec
[05:15] <allee> good libgtk is not a heavy dependency ;)
[05:21] <allee> Tonio_: I can't beleave they treat dpi a <rant>setting dpi like setting like double click time?   Me wonders when they redefine the velocity of light and call it a setting
[05:21] <Tonio_> allee: that can sound shocking, but that the real cruel world ;)
[05:22] <Tonio_> and the problem is that gtk2 is based on those specifications...
[05:24] <allee> they tweak the wrong end.  Certainly we need a way to scale the hole desktop.  But they should not use dpi for it.  It's like redefining what a meter is or how many pixels your monotor has
[05:24] <Tonio_> indeed ;)
[05:25] <Tonio_> but as it works for 95% people, they don't mind
[05:25] <Tonio_> and I can understand both your vision and that other one
[05:27] <Tonio_> and well, although that is not the "perfect solution", if windows, osx, all gnome based distros, and many kde ones are doing that, that should be so bad.... my opinion at least ;)
[05:28] <allee> Tonio_: I see everyday who badly windows does it.  We have lots of hires monitors.  Ask you eye-doctor how good windows default fonts are
[05:29] <allee> Macs hardware magicly has by accident the right dpi.  More pixels -> bigger monitors ;)
[05:29] <Tonio_> allee: hehe ;)
[05:30] <Tonio_> the advantages in providing hardware + software at the same time
[05:32] <raphink> Riddell: I've got a problem
[05:33] <raphink> Riddell: I uploaded a new version of kdesdk to ubuntu, and it was rejected, saying I can't upload for this package... it's in universe though
[05:33] <raphink> or is it in main?
[05:34] <raphink> Filename: pool/universe/k/kdesdk/kdesdk_3.5.0-1ubuntu1_all.deb  :s
[05:36] <raphink> I don't get it
[05:36] <jpatrick> me neither
[05:39] <raphink> well it's ok I'll have riddell upload instead ;)
[05:39] <raphink> and that'll be my second fix in main :)
[05:44] <allee> Tonio_: Do you think is acceptable for dapper if we get gnome app use at leas same size of fonts (maybe same type too) and ignore ...
[05:44] <allee> that maybe a same gnome app looks different in a KDE session and a GNOME session?
[05:45] <allee> I think about how to get right dpi and fallback on failure to 96 fake dpi
[05:47] <Riddell> strange
[05:48] <jpatrick> what's the command for kwallet?
[05:48] <hunger> kwalletmanager IIRC.
[05:48] <allee> Riddell: ?   
[05:48] <Riddell> raphink not being able to upload kdesdk
[05:49] <raphink> Riddell: well LP says it's in main
[05:49] <raphink> Riddell: but the current binary is in universe
[05:49] <raphink> Riddell: was it put in main lately?
[06:01] <_Sime> gnome-terminal listens to Xft.dpi.
[06:05] <Riddell> raphink: ah, kdesdk-scripts is needed for the translations
[06:05] <Riddell> that's why it's in main, forgot about that
[06:05] <raphink> Riddell: ok that explains
[06:05] <Riddell> raphink: got something for me to upload then?
[06:05] <raphink> Riddell: so the sources are in main, but the binary is in universe, right?
[06:06] <raphink> Riddell: yep
[06:06] <raphink> Riddell: wait a min I'll give you the link
[06:06] <raphink> Riddell: https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31782
[06:06] <Riddell> raphink: source main, kdesdk-scripts main, all other binaries universe
[06:07] <raphink> yes
[06:16] <sealne> is https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdebindings/+bug/6141 the bug that was fixed awhile ago, i can't reproduce it
[06:16] <sealne> i remember empty windows for awhile
[06:22] <raphink> Riddell: did you commit my patch?
[06:23] <_Sime> Tonio_: I've add that extra Xft/* support to xsettings-kde. I can now tell gnome-terminal that the DPI is 50.
[06:25] <_Sime> Tonio_: or 96 or whatever.
[06:25] <Riddell> raphink: not yet, will do in a minute
[06:25] <Riddell> _Sime: you patched xsettings-kde?
[06:26] <_Sime> Riddell: yes,
[06:26] <jpatrick> sealne: I don't fix it was fixed
[06:26] <_Sime> Riddell: now I need to know what Xft settings it should be serving up.
[06:26] <jpatrick> ...was in Gentoo
[06:26] <Riddell> sealne: not sure but if you can't reproduce it that suggests it's fixed
[06:26] <_Sime> Riddell: what is the rest of the plan?
[06:27] <Riddell> _Sime: plan was to follow gnome-settings-daemon which sets xft.dpi to 96
[06:27] <Riddell> then we can use the same font sizes as gnome, and blame any problems on them
[06:28] <_Sime> and how do the KDE apps get 96?
[06:29] <Riddell> from xft
[06:29] <_Sime> where exactly?
[06:30] <_Sime> kdm with -dpi 96?
[06:33] <Riddell> well you just said you had got xsettings-kde to do it
[06:37] <_Sime> xsettings-kde servers the Xft settings to gnome apps. KDE apps don't pay any attention to it. xsettings-kde reads .../config/kdeglobals and serves those settings to gnome apps.
[06:38] <_Sime> On my breezy machine, KDE apps just use what the X server says is the DPI or what has been set using .Xresources/xrdb.
[06:38] <_Sime> from what I can see.
[06:39] <_Sime> xsettings-kde is a bridge from kdeglobals to gnome.
[06:40] <_Sime> When kdeglobals is changed then xsettings-kde hears about it, reloads kdeglobals and broadcasts the changes to gnome.
[06:40] <_Sime> (I'll test that in a sec).
[06:40] <sealne> i can confirm https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kimdaba/+bug/4358
[06:41] <Riddell> _Sime: if I run gnome-settings-daemon the font sizes on kde programs change
[06:41] <Riddell> on newly run kde programs
[06:41] <Riddell> so they must pay attention to xft dpi
[06:41] <Riddell> sealne: can you edit the status of those bugs?
[06:42] <sealne> don't think i can?
[06:42] <Riddell> sealne: click on the link underneith "Fix Requested In"
[06:43] <sealne> i have request fix in: upstream or in distribution
[06:44] <Riddell> no, the "kimdaba (Ubuntu)" text
[06:44] <Riddell> will take you to +editstatus page
[06:44] <jjesse> hmmm every i try to download from cdimage fails just at the end of the download :(
[06:44] <sealne> ah got it sorry
[06:45] <Riddell> sealne: it's not intuitive I agree
[06:45] <sealne> what about the libqt one?
[06:46] <Riddell> sealne: mark is as Fix Released with a polite note to reopen if they still have the problem
[06:46] <sealne> k
[06:50] <_Sime> Riddell: i'll have a look a the gnome-settings-daemon. it is probably doing the same things as xrdb <<EOF Xft.dpi: 96 blah blah.
[06:50] <_Sime> I had to rescue the neighbours cat from our cat....
[06:51] <_Sime> and the glasswasher guy want to be paid, and some delivery guy wanted directions, and I was making a cup of tea... all at the same time...
[06:53] <Riddell> _Sime: wow :)
[06:53] <sealne> what about https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kchmviewer/+bug/29738 i can't reproduce the error part and the rest sounds like a feature request?
[06:54] <Riddell> sealne: do a few most and you'll steal the bug day star of the day award from hobsee
[06:54] <_Sime> the other cat sneaked in while I was talking to the washer guy...
[06:54] <_Sime> what is the easiest way to get to the gnome-settings-daemon source?
[06:55] <Riddell> _Sime: it's in control-center
[06:55] <_Sime> i see it
[06:55] <_Sime> they have a xrdb dir....
[06:59] <_Sime> and the winner is...... <drum roll>
[07:00] <_Sime> the gnome-settings-daemon
[07:00] <_Sime> uses
[07:00] <_Sime> xrdb to set Xft.dpi, Xft.hinting, Xft.hintstyle etc etc.
[07:01] <_Sime> and that is why how KDE apps get affected by gnome-settings-daemon.
[07:03] <_Sime> the settings themselves are pulled out of the gconf db.
[07:15] <allee> _Sime: Great.
[07:16] <_Sime> I'm just now try to work out where the Xft defaults come from.
[07:16] <allee> So we only point left is how to get the right DPI (or falback to this 96 dpi)
[07:16] <_Sime> xsettings-kde should probably serve those settings up from xft.
[07:17] <_Sime> or only use 96dpi
[07:17] <allee> _Sime: 'right' source of dpi is xorg driver
[07:18] <_Sime> yeah, but weirds ass DPIs are annoying...
[07:18] <allee> _Sime: hardcoding?  Being primitive like year ago with bitmap fonts?
[07:19] <_Sime> ddcprobe can tell you how big the screen is.
[07:19] <allee> _Sime: Noone complained here and we have the whole range 75 - 144
[07:20] <_Sime> I would have. :-)
[07:20] <_Sime> with ddcprobe you can see if the DPI info is *missing*.
[07:20] <_Sime> very handy.
[07:20] <allee> size and total dots are enought ;)
[07:21] <_Sime> personally I would like DPI to be configurable. 
[07:21] <_Sime> AUTO or 96dpi.
[07:21] <_Sime> there is still time. FF is next week.
[07:22] <allee> _Sime: Maybe we need another way to tune.  But not dpi.  Without WYSIWYG is impossibile
[07:24] <allee> why the hell does ddcinfo round to cm ignoring mm?  Strange
[07:28] <Riddell> _Sime: so we should just call xrdb in startkde?
[07:29] <_Sime> I think so...
[07:29] <_Sime> if a gnome app can't contact a xsettings daemon then they just use the xrdb defaults.
[07:30] <mornfall> allee: i would be happy with dpi autodetection if there was a way to set pixel font size for the UI :-))
[07:31] <_Sime> confirmed, xsettings daemon, otherwise defaults.
[07:31] <_Sime> well for gnome-terminal anyway.
[07:31] <sealne> what is the correct way to pass a wishlist onto bugs.kde?
[07:32] <_Sime> http://svn.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-control-center/trunk/gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-settings-xsettings.c?rev=6487&view=markup
[07:32] <_Sime> search on xrdb
[07:32] <_Sime> they set 4 or so xft things
[07:34] <Riddell> sealne: report it to bugs.kde.org and add a link in launchpad
[07:34] <Riddell> sealne: it's quite time consuming unfortunatly
[07:35] <sealne> yeah especially searching to make sure its not a duplicate
[07:36] <Riddell> _Sime: so what's the command line for setting xft.dpi via xrdb?
[07:38] <allee> mornfall: what an accident! I took a break and came to the identical conclusion, wanted write it and saw your message :)
[07:40] <_Sime> http://pastebin.com/559928
[07:40] <sealne> what status should it be after adding to bugs.kde?
[07:41] <_Sime> Riddell: not sure if we should also be setting the hinting etc too.
[07:43] <Riddell> sealne: confirmed
[07:43] <sealne> k
[07:43] <Riddell> sealne: and request fix upstream
[07:44] <sealne> k
[07:46] <Riddell> _Sime: works for me :)
[07:47] <_Sime> Riddell: you just tried it in startkde?
[07:47] <Riddell> _Sime: just on the command line now, but I can try adding it to startkde
[07:48] <Riddell> then we need to set the default font sizes to something smaller
[07:49] <_Sime> Riddell: fixed on 96dpi?
[07:49] <Riddell> yes
[07:49] <mornfall> allee: maybe you could file a wishlist and assign it to me? on bugs.kde.org... i could want to implement the pixel-size stuff for kde 4
[07:49] <_Sime> cool
[07:50] <_Sime> most fonts are optimised for 10pt, 12pt at 96dpi.
[07:50] <_Sime> that is just a fact of life. :)
[07:53] <allee> _Sime: and on hires monitor all those optimization are useless because the fonts are too small.  On low res you, with are most of the time small they are too big.
[07:53] <_Sime> allee: then set the fonts to something bigger.
[07:54] <allee> I agree that most new monitor are around 100 dpi to the optimization if good there.
[07:54] <allee> _Sime: and work at the next monitor and make it smaller or bigger depending on hardware
[07:55] <_Sime> allee: yes, but people don't change monitors very often.
[07:55] <_Sime> allee: I know what you are saying and it is right in theory. But we need to be pragmatic. :-/
[07:55] <_Sime> allee: and most people want fonts to look good.
[07:56] <Riddell> they also want fonts that look the same in gtk and qt
[07:56] <allee> _Sime: I have not problem rounding dpi to 96 dpi for let's say +/- 5 %.  but for 30% ... argl
[07:57] <allee> Riddell: same in gtk and qt is okay.  But this is independent of hardcoding-dpi
[07:58] <allee> I mean a) 96 dpi is better that current fallback of 75 dpi.  b) rounding dpi to get optimized fonts is okay too c) ..
[07:59] <allee> c) hardcoding it for all cases is nonsense (IMH0)
[07:59] <_Sime> windows appears to use 96dpi as a default, and 120dpi for the "large fonts" setting.
[07:59] <allee> fonts optimization are overrules by the hardcoded/real dpi.
[08:00] <allee> _Sime: one can't use large fonts.  Almost al applications have cut strings :(
[08:00] <_Sime> allee: what do you mean?
[08:00] <allee> _Sime: that's one reason I like unix/linux and especially KDE because independen were you have you saw roughtly the same
[08:00] <_Sime> allee: oh, on windows.
[08:01] <_Sime> allee: yes, windows sucks like that...
[08:01] <allee> _Sime: button and label seem to use fixed pixel sizes.  Bigger fonts  -> end of strings is now displayed
[08:03] <_Sime> allee: also known as "why the hell can't I resize this window???"
[08:03] <allee> _Sime: about monitor changes.  Users laptop and workstation almost never have same DPI.  Your collaborators in next office another DPI.   And noone cares because fonts have everywhere the same physical size
[08:03] <allee> _Sime: right :)
[08:05] <_Sime> Riddell: we can make the DPI (96, 120 etc or auto) configurable in displayconfig.
[08:13] <_Sime> MacOS looks like it uses 72dpi (old perhaps)
[08:15] <Riddell> _Sime: where would we save the value for it to be picked up by startkde from?
[08:16] <_Sime> Riddell: where ever you like. :->
[08:16] <jpatrick> Riddell: should I ask for a UVF exception for krusader?
[08:16] <_Sime> ~/.kde/config/somewhere
[08:17] <_Sime> Riddell, allee: I'm trying to google a list of dpis that work well for fonts.
[08:17] <Riddell> _Sime: somewhere that can easily be read by a shell script (i.e. startkde)
[08:17] <_Sime> Riddell, allee: perhaps we can detect the current dpi from Xorg (with xdpyinfo), use 96 instead of 75, and 'snap' to the nearest good dpi and use that.
[08:18] <Riddell> sounding complex..
[08:18] <_Sime> true
[08:19] <allee> As long as xdriver does not get DPI right, it will never be easy
[08:23] <allee> Riddell: not that complex  list of  dpi between xN and yN; set dpi to zN;  if dpi 75 set 96; else use what xserver found
[08:23] <allee> currently list would contain only one entry  96dpi  with e.g., +/-  20%
[08:27] <_Sime> above about 120 dpi most fonts (ok 12pt) look ok because they are some many pixels large.
[08:28] <_Sime> you only really run into trouble when a character has to be rendered with a height < 10-12 pixels,
[08:28] <_Sime> fonts that are small in terms of pixels.
[08:28] <_Sime> that is when you get really ugly rendering.
[08:34] <_Sime> our good friends have some recommendations for font makers: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/recom.htm
[08:35] <_Sime> search on "Device resolutions"
[08:38] <_Sime> Riddell: it looks like the "best" DPIs are 96, 120, 300, 600, anything above 120 can probably best not be rounded.
[08:38] <Riddell> so why does X default to 75 I wonder
[08:38] <Riddell> jpatrick: not sure, it's a new feature release presumably?
[08:39] <_Sime> Riddell: way old 75 dpi bitmap fonts.
[08:39] <jpatrick> Riddell: yes, lots of new things
[08:39] <_Sime> Riddell: historical reasons I guess.
[08:40] <Riddell> jpatrick: I'm not sure what the current practice is for non-bugfix new versions in universe, you'd have to ask the MOTU
[08:41] <jpatrick> ok
[08:43] <allee> _Sime: you are my hero!  I'm very sorry, I can't spend time on it right now.  I saved the irc log and check the links later.  Pitty that work and family has strong demand this time :(
[08:45] <_Sime> Riddell: so what do you want to do? Should I write a small C program that outputs a recommend DPI based on rounding and what Xorg reports?
[08:46] <_Sime> Riddell: or do you want a python program? ;-)
[08:47] <mornfall> remoralised mornfall goes back to coding
[08:47] <Riddell> _Sime: if it's running at KDE startup it needs to be a C program
[08:47] <Riddell> python far too slow
[08:47] <Riddell> mornfall: woo!
[08:48] <mornfall> (i wish someone would fix emacs-snapshot though)
[08:48] <mornfall> or maybe i should just use non-snapshot
[08:48] <mornfall> i can't even recall why i upgraded
[08:50] <_Sime> Riddell: you're going to put an optimised-for-speed C program and call it from a slow-as-tar shell script??? ;)
[08:50] <mornfall> pykde takes loads of memory
[08:51] <Riddell> it doesn't have to be optimised, but pykde takes a good while to load 
[08:51] <_Sime> yes, but I don't need pykde to do this. ;-)
[08:51] <Riddell> ok, plain old python takes a while to load
[08:53] <mornfall> it's still a fair bit of overhead
[08:53] <mornfall> unless python is likely to be pre-cached
[08:53] <mornfall> and it does not take much memory to run the script
[08:53] <_Sime> well, I'm pretty sure that python does get run at boot time.
[08:53] <_Sime> => cached.
[08:54] <_Sime> time python nix.py =>  0.01s user 0.01s system 85% cpu 0.028 total
[08:54] <mornfall> 3M RSS for the interpreter
[08:54] <mornfall> could be worse indeed
[08:56] <_Sime> i'm happy to write that little prog in C, but...
[08:57] <_Sime> when we are talking about slow, we are often talking about something less than a 1/10 of a second.
[08:57] <_Sime> perspective people.
[09:01] <Riddell> maybe I'm wrong
[09:01] <Riddell> of course bash would be best in this case :)
[09:02] <Riddell> but sure, write it in python and I'll put it in
[09:03] <_Sime> oh! and I had started with C!
[09:03] <_Sime> :-)
[09:05] <Riddell> keep going then :)
[09:05] <Riddell> C is more difficult to package of course
[09:06] <_Sime> really?
[09:06] <_Sime> actually there already is a python prog from guidance that runs at login.
[09:06] <Riddell> well it's more than just copying a file
[09:07] <_Sime> displayconfig-restore.py, it also has to work around problems with Xorg.
[09:07] <Riddell> _Sime: what runs that at login?
[09:08] <_Sime> Riddell: via /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ IIRC.
[09:08] <Riddell> oh yes, of course
[09:08] <Riddell> so we could quietly have a Xft DPI setting in there
[09:10] <Riddell> allee: how can I close Bug#353344 in debian as won't fix?
[09:10] <_Sime> Riddell: yep!
[09:10] <allee> checking ...
[09:13] <allee> Riddell: Heh, nice report.  send e-mail to control@bugs.debian.org  with body  tags #353344 + wontfix
[09:14] <allee> there's also the nice bts tool.  but I have not used it yet.
[09:15] <Riddell> allee: that body all on one line?
[09:17] <_Sime> Riddell: on a similiar issue. kdm needs to offer the option to restart Xorg. This is need if someone modifies the config with displayconfig.
[09:18] <allee> one cmd per line in body
[09:18] <allee> you can also use:
[09:18] <allee> package umbrella
[09:18] <allee> tags #num + taga
[09:18] <allee> stop
[09:19] <allee> but only 'tags #num + tagA' as only body content works too
[09:19] <Riddell> ok, I've tried that, lets see what happens :)
[09:19] <allee> all commands and examples: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/server-control
[09:20] <allee> Riddell, _Sime I have to go home to family.  ONLY 30 hours late. Hope kids don't kill me :(   Highway here I am!
[09:20] <allee> bye
[09:20] <_Sime> ok, bye
[09:31] <jpatrick> what are config.sub and config.guess rules doing in krusader's rules file?
[09:34] <jpatrick> doesn't have a compat file either....
[11:10] <_Sime> Riddell: just got it working here. :-) yay!
[11:10] <_Sime> GF wants attention.