[12:12] <dholbach> good night guys.
[12:23] <trappist> man I hate public away messages.
[12:24] <Burgwork> sophie^, please turn that off
[12:24] <sophie^> oops
[12:24] <sophie^> script thingy
[12:25] <Burgwork> sophie^, thanks
[12:27] <sophie^> my apology...
[12:34] <stockholm> i try to reach jeff bailey. what is the best email? rasperyginger and nisa seem to be out
[12:34] <tseng> how about jeff.bailey AT canonical.com
[12:34] <stockholm> ok, thanks
[01:14] <shaya> mjg59: so yoi going to be packaging up aiglx? :)
[01:15] <mjg59> shaya: Nope
[01:16] <shaya> wondering whose going to win the battle of the bling
[01:17] <mjg59> In the short term, probably aiglx
[01:17] <mjg59> It's massively easier to integrate, and it has other practical side effects
[01:17] <mjg59> In the long run? Fuck knows
[01:17] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:30] <Kyral> what is aiglx?
[01:38] <azeem> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RenderingProject/aiglx
[03:47] <setuid> Can someone tell me how "ubuntu-server" differs from the other variants? 
[03:50] <sistpoty> setuid: afaik different packages on the cd, no sudo-er for first user, doesn't install ubuntu-desktop by default
[03:52] <setuid> So it would be the preferred approach for a headless box, yes? 
[03:52] <setuid> I'm looking for a debian-based distro that will allow me to throw mysql 5.x on there without much trouble
[03:52] <setuid> I'm going to be building apache/php from source, but MySQL is kind of a pain to get right with the paths and such
[03:57] <sistpoty> setuid: yes, if you want new stuff like mysql5, you'll (hopefully) like ubuntu-server... I didn't do a headless install though ;)
[03:57] <sistpoty> (or headless setup)
[03:58] <setuid> We'll see in about 39 minutes, when this download is done
[04:16] <infinity> setuid: Out of curiosity, why build apache2 and PHP from source?  Is there anything I can change/fix to make the packages more appealing?
[04:17] <setuid> infinity: Are you the Debian/Ubuntu Apache2 packager? 
[04:17] <infinity> setuid: Yes.
[04:17] <infinity> setuid: With PHP, I know our "try to include every feature we can" policy won't make everyone happy.  With apache2, though, I've been pretty happy with the packaging, even in large datacentre contexts.
[04:17] <setuid> One major pet peeve (which is shared by hundreds of my peers), is to stop splattering the configs all over the place. /etc/httpd, /etc/apache2, /etc/apache-ssl, and all that. Apache1 is nice and clean (if you use includes for conf files of course) 
[04:18] <infinity> setuid: Erm, the configs are in one place.  /etc/apache2
[04:18] <setuid> Not if you install the ssl version (and why the hell is it two separate packages anyway?!) 
[04:18] <infinity> setuid: You would only have /etc/httpd if you built from source.
[04:18] <setuid> If you do port 80 and port 443, you need two separate packages, which are in two separate dirs. That's just odd, and even the Apache developers concur on that point. 
[04:19] <infinity> setuid: If you're referring to apache 1.3 ("apache" and "apache-ssl" packages), I'd strongly recommend you move to apache2.
[04:19] <setuid> If you build from source, you get /usr/local/apache, actually
[04:19] <setuid> Well, Apache2 has its limitations, when compared to Apache1
[04:19] <infinity> setuid: Also, "apache-ssl" is "apache with BenSSL complied statically"... You could just as easily install "apache" and "libapache-mod-ssl" to use mod_ssl in apache instead.
[04:19] <setuid> But I'll digress for now
[04:19] <infinity> (But that's all apache1.3 stuff)
[04:20] <infinity> setuid: Hit me with the apache2 limitations.  Most of those should be long resolved by now.
[04:20] <setuid> I've been doing apache+ssl+php+mod_perl+dav/etc. for years now with one script, one command.... and it does it all in one shot. 
[04:20] <setuid> http://code.gnu-designs.com/apachebuild/
[04:20] <setuid> That's my script, one for apache1, one for apache2
[04:20] <setuid> Probably not updated for this month's releases, but I'll update it 
[04:21] <setuid> The way Debian does its configs is wildly out of spec, and far too confusing to make any logical sense. It takes me a couple of hours to unfuck the thing back into compliance. 
[04:21] <setuid> pardon my french ;) 
[04:21] <infinity> "compliance"?
[04:21] <infinity> Compliance with upstream is to have one giant httpd.conf
[04:21] <setuid> Right, back into some semblance of normalcy
[04:21] <setuid> No it isn't, that's also braindead
[04:21] <infinity> Which doesn't scale terribly well.
[04:22] <setuid> But the whole symlink modules into separate dirs mess is a hack
[04:22] <setuid> You enable modules by commenting them in or out, in the configs
[04:22] <infinity> I'll politely agree to disagree on that one.
[04:22] <setuid> And I make use of includes heavily in my main .conf file
[04:22] <setuid> Which keeps things clean
[04:22] <infinity> conf.d directories are a pretty longstanding tradition that Just Works.
[04:22] <setuid> Right, so I'll undo that back into something I can manage better with scripts
[04:23] <setuid> Having to do file IO just to update a vhost or enable/disable a module, is messy
[04:23] <sistpoty> hm... I find the split apache2 config very good, managable and intuitive... but I didn't have to setup many webservers yet (only a few times)
[04:23] <setuid> I split my apache1 configs, just not a 1-module-per-file thing like the Debian package does
[04:23] <setuid> Modules are in modules.conf which in include in my main conf
[04:24] <infinity> Yes, that's how our apache 1.3 packages do it.  We found it was quite a bit more painful to manage automatically.
[04:24] <setuid> But I'll install it and see what I can do to minimize that damage. Maybe the process has changed in the last 6 months when I last looked. 
[04:24] <infinity> The setup in apache2 is much simpler to handle.
[04:24] <setuid> Have the ssl ProxyPass bugs been fixed? 
[04:24] <infinity> setuid: Do you have a bug number?
[04:25] <setuid> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=12355
[04:25] <infinity> That's fixed in dapper, not in breezy.
[04:25] <setuid> That's keeping one of my clients back on 1.3 for now, they manage the financial front-end firewalls/authentication for about 200 different banks/credit unions
[04:25] <setuid> And for them, that's a showstopper
[04:26] <infinity> Yeah.  I wanted to backport that fix to breezy, but got vetoed, with fairly good reason.
[04:26] <infinity> So, will have to wait for dapper to release to get that one in a stable release.
[04:27] <infinity> Oh, wait.  I lied.
[04:27] <infinity> I wanted to backport it to HOARY, but couldn't.
[04:27] <infinity> setuid: I got that fix into breezy before it shipped.  breezy is fine.
[04:33] <setuid> Ok, give me a few minutes to get this thing installed and ssh routing on it so I can poke at your apache2 packages
[04:33] <setuid> I'll give you some constructive feedback (btw, I've been doing this a long, long time... as both user, OSS developer and web dev)
[04:35] <infinity> setuid: For the most part, criticisms of the split config will probably fall on deaf ears.  No one's stopping you from completely blowing away the config directory and doing it "your way", but this way works well for a lot of users and for package management scripts.
[04:35] <infinity> setuid: Issues with the server itself, how it's built, features we (don't) include, etc.  Those are more important to me.
[04:35] <setuid> I'll try to grok it... it just seems very unintuitive, and it isn't the way the stock install works if you do it from source
[04:36] <setuid> I'll be running this behind squid, with deflate, in an EXTREMELY high-volume situation (10GiB of transfers/week, of http and files) 
[04:36] <infinity> The stock install from source uses a config that's next to impossible to mangle in a Debian policy-compliant way.  We made a conscious decision to scrap it.
[04:36] <setuid> And I'll be relying heavily on DAV in this particular case, as well as mod_perl 
[04:36] <infinity> As for concernes about file I/O, that's clearly a non-issue, since apache only reads the config files on startup.
[04:37] <setuid> By file IO, I meant management tools that read/write/modify that config, now have to open multiple (dozens of) file handles to do the same job
[04:37] <infinity> Well, some constructive criticism there could be in the form of "I'd like a better view of what's in those files without having to look at all of them", etc.
[04:38] <setuid> So from our perspective, its a ground-up rewrite of our tools, or a ground-up rewrite of the config as shipped in your packages, or we go back to doing source builds
[04:38] <infinity> Lord knows we need to improve a2enmod/a2dismod to do some things like let you list what's currently enabled (and what'd available but disabled), etc.
[04:38] <setuid> I don't use those tools, didn't even know they existed (something Debian-specific?) 
[04:39] <infinity> But I'm assuming you already have a "default config" you use in your case, so you could just rm -rf /etc/apache2 and drop your own configs in if your tools DTRT for you.
[04:39] <infinity> We obviously can't really cater to that case well. :)
[04:39] <setuid> One small thing I'd love to see, is patching HARD_SERVER_LIMIT to a reasonable level, 256 is a bit low
[04:39] <infinity> (Yes, a2{en,dis}mod is the interface used by module packages to turn themselves on and off, and for admins to do the same... Saves from manually mangling symlinks)
[04:39] <setuid> I set that to 1024 here on Linux, and it works great
[04:40] <setuid> $PERL -pi -e 's,HARD_SERVER_LIMIT 256,HARD_SERVER_LIMIT 1024,g' $WORKDIR/$APACHE/src/include/httpd.h
[04:40] <infinity> I'm sure I have a Debian bug about it somewhere, but could you file a bug in Malone (pretty please) about HARD_SERVER_LIMIT?
[04:40] <infinity> I do hit the Dbeina bug list every few months or so, but (as it's my job), I hit Ubuntu bugs more often.
[04:40] <setuid> Let me get everything working and see if its even an issue with apache2, if it is, I'll file it, if not, I'll drop it as an apache1.x requirement
[04:41] <setuid> Is the Preserve ProxyHost patch rolled into this? 
[04:41] <infinity> It doesn't sound familiar to me, so I'll go with no.
[04:41] <setuid> sec. 
[04:41] <infinity> Again, a bug with a pointer to the patch and an explanation of what it does would go a long way.
[04:42] <setuid> http://code.gnu-designs.com/apachebuild/PreserveProxyHost.diff
[04:42] <setuid> You eat the host header, this returns that back to normal behavior
[04:42] <infinity> Oh, wait.  apache 2.0 doesn't even have a HARD_SERVER_LIMIT... That was an apache 1.3 thing.
[04:42] <HrdwrBoB> I have to second that
[04:43] <infinity> I need to screw my head on and get into the right codebase. :)
[04:43] <HrdwrBoB> the hard server limit is a ridiculous thing
[04:43] <setuid> I've got a few of Rasmus' patches here too, but probably nothing you'll want in general circulation, they're for high-volume sites 
[04:43] <infinity> setuid: Again, that may be an apache 1.3 only issue (the ProxyHost thing)... I'd have to dig through apache2 to see how it behaves.
[04:44] <setuid> I'll test it out, as I said, I do a lot with squid in front 
[04:44] <setuid> I'll find these things pretty quickly
[04:44] <setuid> Ok, burn is done... I'll be back in 15 minutes when this headless install completes
[04:45] <infinity> ProxyPreserveHost is a backport to 1.3 from 2.0.31
[04:45] <infinity> (So, yes, it's supported in apache 2.0 out of the box)
[04:46] <sistpoty> infinity: just a quick question about mysql-server: are the permissions for /var/run/mysqld intended to lock out world from the socket?
[04:47] <sistpoty> (seems to break default package setups for e.g. phpmyadmin, since mysql -hlocalhost tries to connect through socket instead of network)
[04:49] <infinity> sistpoty: No, that's a bug.  I'll fix it.
[04:49] <sistpoty> thx infinity
[04:50] <infinity> The directory should be 755, if you want to change it locally while I get around to doing an upload to fix that (and a few others)
[04:51] <sistpoty> infinity: actually marcin` on -motu just reported this one, I'm a mere proxy ;)
[04:51] <infinity> Heh.
[05:07] <sistpoty> elmo: any ETA when syncs will be progressed again?
[05:21] <setuid> What is "kickseed", and why does it hard-lock my machine during install time? 
[05:26] <sistpoty> setuid: just guessing it has s.th. to do with preseeding debconf-options during install, but I don't really have a clue ;)
[05:28] <setuid> hrm... weird that it would get all the way to that point, then hard-lock the machine
[05:31] <sistpoty> setuid: indeed... but actually knowing what it does (instead of guessing) might give more hints ;)
[05:33] <setuid> of course
[05:39] <setuid> Locked up again, this time at 65% of evms... wtf. 
[05:41] <setuid> I need to figure out how to make this install slimmer
[05:44] <sistpoty> setuid: hw is ok, I guess?
[05:44] <setuid> Yes, this server has run 24x7 for about 3 years without any problems
[05:45] <setuid> I'm trying again 
[05:47] <sistpoty> setuid: have you tried turning acpi off via kernel-cmd-option?
[05:47] <sistpoty> (maybe related to malone: #12483, but again just a guess)
[06:07] <setuid> Looks like this disc fucked up the hardware somehow
[06:07] <setuid> Does ubuntu-server poke any data into registers at boot/install time? 
[06:07] <setuid> Its locking up like crazy now
[06:08] <setuid> I just did a 5-cd install of SuSE 9.2 Professional on this about 2 hours ago, worked flawlessly. 
[06:08] <Lathiat> setuid: No, of course not
[06:08] <setuid> No lockups or anything, now I can't even get into the BIOS without it locking up on me, and it all started after I tried to install ubuntu-server on it 
[06:08] <Lathiat> sounds like a bad co-indicdence
[06:08] <Lathiat> i mean, stuff fiddles with all sorts of hardware
[06:08] <setuid> Must be something fishy 
[06:09] <Lathiat> but suse would do the same
[06:09] <Lathiat> turn it off for a half hour
[06:09] <setuid> I've pulled every card except NIC/video and cd drive and hdd
[06:10] <sistpoty> maybe corrupted memory?
[06:11] <setuid> I pulled the RAM and put in different RAM
[06:11] <setuid> 512M of Crucial, bench-tested
[06:12] <sistpoty> hm...
[06:13] <setuid> man, this is so fucked up now
[06:13] <setuid> Its just rebooting at the video card splash at POST
[06:13] <setuid> rebooting, rebooting, rebooting
[06:13] <infinity> "Can't get into the BIOS without locking up" sounds more like either dead cache, or overheating CPU (ie: dead fan), the former being much cheaper to fix.
[06:13] <infinity> Or overheating video card, I suppose, but I can't imagine a server-class system with a fan-cooled video chipset.
[06:14] <infinity> Also, s/former/latter/... Yay brain.
[06:23] <setuid> You hit that one on the head, the cpu fans were wiggled out of their power connector, weren't spinning
[06:24] <setuid> trying again
[06:31] <setuid> hrm, screen went blank right after I hit Enter on the "Install base system" option
[06:31] <setuid> Been blank for 5 minutes
[06:31] <setuid> This 15-minute install is now taking me 2+ hours
[06:39] <setuid> Hrm, I guess the kernel on here doesn't like my hardware
[06:39] <setuid> ugh
[06:40] <setuid> I got all the way to kickseed the first try, now I can't even get past the fbsplash
[06:40] <setuid> Oh here we go.... "Uncompressing Linux... crc error -- System halted" 
[06:45] <infinity> Hopefully you're not suffring fallout from the non-spinning CPU fan..
[06:45] <infinity> (It's taken me all of 5 seconds running a CPU with no cooling to eat the L1 cache)
[06:53] <setuid> Well I'll be... there's something I've never seen before
[06:54] <setuid> Too many things on one +5 lead from the PSU
[06:54] <setuid> HDD + CD + case fans
[06:54] <setuid> Moved some to the other +5 leads, and now we're back in business
[06:54] <setuid> Let's see if we can get past kickseed 
[06:58] <LaserJock_away> gnight all
[06:59] <setuid> arg!!!
[07:00] <setuid> "debootstrap: : Unknown error 990"
[07:01] <setuid> crap crap crap
[07:01] <setuid> XFS file corruption with LVM
[08:37] <dholbach> Is somebody else's network-manager acting odd? like wrong dhclient usage, obtaining an IP from Zeroconf and then joining a mDNS multicase group with a strange IP?
[08:37] <dholbach> ... which doesn't help me to get into the internet? :-)
[08:37] <infinity> dholbach: As in "it's not invoking dhclient at all, and I had to go back to using ifupdown?"
[08:37] <infinity> dholbach: If so, yes.
[08:37] <dholbach> gar!
[08:38] <infinity> dholbach: Not sure if we should blame keybuk's latest n-m changes, or pitti's dhclient changes (that removed some dhcbdb support)
[08:43] <robitaille> yes, wireless just broke for me as well...
[08:50] <dholbach> infinity: reverting pitti's dhcp3 changes makes the world happy again. :)
[08:51] <dholbach> But I can't really tell where the actual problem is.
[08:52] <robitaille> bug 32223?  maybe?
[08:52] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32223 in network-manager "NetworkManager doesn't work if latest dhcp3-client package is installed" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32223
[08:52] <dholbach> hey pitti!
[08:52] <ajmitch> morning pitti 
[08:53] <dholbach> robitaille: yeah, but that's not the "reason" why it breaks ;)
[08:53] <robitaille> the extra "-x"?
[08:53] <dholbach> pitti: we were just discussing bug 32223 and dhcp3 :-)
[08:53] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32223 in network-manager "NetworkManager doesn't work if latest dhcp3-client package is installed" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32223
[08:54] <dholbach> pitti: but take your time :-)
[08:55] <pitti> Good morning everyone
[08:55] <pitti> dholbach: hmm, Keybuk asked me to remove the dhcdbd patches...
[08:56] <pitti> (bug 32134)
[08:56] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32134 in dhcp3 dhcp3-client "does not update /etc/resolv.conf (when changed from NetworkManager)" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32134
[08:56] <dholbach> it seems like the dhclient usage from networkmanager doesnt work
[08:56] <ajmitch> ok, time for me to go home, see you all tomorrow :)
[08:56] <pitti> Ubugtu: bug 32134 !!!
[08:56] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32134 in dhcp3 dhcp3-client "does not update /etc/resolv.conf (when changed from NetworkManager)" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32134
[08:57] <dholbach> pitti: be kind with Ubugtu :-)
[09:00] <pitti> dholbach: ok, I'll discuss that with Keybuk and take a look at it
[09:00] <dholbach> pitti: you rock! :-)
[09:03] <sladen> On that subject, Firefox doesn't update its ideas about resolv.conf unless it's restarted
[09:05] <infinity> dholbach / pitt : robitaille is right, bug 32223 does seem to hold the answer, not just the question. :)
[09:05] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32223 in network-manager "NetworkManager doesn't work if latest dhcp3-client package is installed" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32223
[09:06] <infinity> sladen: Great... So that means it has its own local cache of the contents of resolv.conf and doesn't just trust glibc's resolver?
[09:06] <infinity> sladen: I don't suppose you have an urge to tear through libnss (or whatever's responsible) and find the offending code?
[09:06] <dholbach> infinity, robitaille: awwww, yes.
[09:07] <robitaille> I finally  got my network working on the laptop.  Got my wired cable out from the closet, and then had to run dhclient3 manually after n-m found the wired connection. 
[09:08] <infinity> robitaille: Hurrah for progress, eh? :)
[09:09] <robitaille> a working network connection is always a good thing in life :)
[09:13] <jsgotangco> i'll finish my flight4 pages first before i start doing stuff again
[09:22] <dholbach> hey seb128!
[09:22] <seb128> hi dholbach
[09:28] <pitti> Hey Mith^W tfheen
[09:33] <Micksa> grah
[09:34] <Micksa> anyone know/care about this prob in dapper?:
[09:34] <Micksa> http://knobbits.org/ws.png
[09:34] <Micksa> ugly ugly bold font.  I had it working nicely before with an appropriate .Xresources but now it goes ugly. *sometimes*.
[09:37] <seb128> what font do you use?
[09:38] <seb128> what $PS1 do you have?
[09:41] <Micksa> 6x10. um, big-arse $PS1 :) but the same issue occurs with e.g. joe using bold fonts
[09:41] <Micksa> (don't say a word :P )
[09:41] <Micksa> http://knobbits.org/tmp/dot-xrsources.txt
[09:43] <seb128> Micksa: what is "6x10"? do you use g-t?
[09:43] <Micksa> no, that's xterm.
[09:43] <Micksa> shoulda said that, sorry :)
[09:44] <Micksa> XTerm*font:             6x10
[09:46] <Micksa> well well
[09:46] <Micksa> 6x10         -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-c-60-iso8859-1
[09:46] <Micksa> eeenteresting
[09:47] <seb128> you should use g-t
[09:47] <seb128> and pick a real font :)
[09:48] <lifeless> seb128: is there some useful way of giving you feedback when evo hangs ?
[09:48] <seb128> lifeless: gdb backtrace
[09:48] <lifeless> seb128: k
[09:48] <lifeless> seb128: I shall start doing that
[09:48] <Micksa> I would use g-t if it didn't slow down gcc 8)
[09:48] <seb128> lifeless: hang when doing fast switching on imap sometime?
[09:48] <lifeless> seb128: into Malone ok ?
[09:49] <tepsipakki> micksa: shouldn't do that anymore
[09:49] <seb128> lifeless: sure
[09:49] <seb128> Micksa: dapper vte has been way optimized
[09:49] <lifeless> seb128: imap yes, dunno about 'fast switching'
[09:49] <seb128> lifeless: may be known (it hangs sometime for me too), get a backtrace that's the best way to know if that's the same hang
[09:49] <Treenaks> lifeless: 'clicking on multiple folders in a row quickly'
[09:49] <lifeless> Treenaks: oh, no not that
[09:50] <tepsipakki> micksa: but I'm using 6x13 with g-t, and things look nice ;)
[09:50] <lifeless> usually I come back to evo via alt tab
[09:50] <tepsipakki> and fast
[09:50] <seb128> Treenaks: can you reproduce a hang that way?
[09:51] <Treenaks> seb128: I'm not using evo at the moment, but I used to get hangs in hoary that way
[09:51] <seb128> Treenaks: ok, we can always use people able to reproduce a bug :)
[09:51] <seb128> much easier to try patches that way
[09:51] <Treenaks> seb128: sure :)
[09:51] <tepsipakki> micksa: http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/gnome-2-14/
[09:52] <seb128> it hangs for me, but like once every few days, so to say if that's a patch working ...
[09:52] <Micksa> tee hee, "crack team of speed kings"
[09:52] <Treenaks> seb128: Hmm.. would always running evo under valgrind/gdb work? :)
[09:53] <seb128> Treenaks: no need for a hang
[09:53] <Micksa> that phrase as so much potential for bad jokes
[09:53] <seb128> Treenaks: which is nice with a hang is that you can attach gdb to the process whenever you want :)
[09:54] <Treenaks> seb128: good point.. you'd have to be running a debug build though, right?
[09:54] <viviersf> whos maintainer for nividia-glx /
[09:54] <Micksa> hmmm!
[09:54] <viviersf> ?
[09:54] <Micksa> I WANNA BE IN A CRACK TEAM
[09:54] <sladen> infinity: IIRC, yes.  It has its own async DNS resolver and it'll need patching (or just patching-out to use resolv again)
[09:55] <Treenaks> Micksa: first, find a crack dealer. then come back ;)
[09:55] <seb128> Treenaks: better yep, but half of the time a non-debug is enough to figure if that's a dup of a known issue
[09:55] <Treenaks> seb128: wow, 'crack team of backtrace readers' ;)
[09:55] <tepsipakki> Micksa: maybe someone can "push" you in the right direction ;)
[09:56] <Micksa> Treenaks: already on it
[09:57] <Micksa> man, gnome is goin off
[09:57] <Micksa> *policies* now. well, "lockdowns"
[09:59] <Treenaks> Micksa: yes, but implemented sanely, not as one neverending list of options
[09:59] <Micksa> heh
[10:00] <viviersf> who maintains nvidia-glx 
[10:01] <infinity> viviersf: #ubuntu-kernel (and me)
[10:01] <infinity> viviersf: But I'm heading out in a few minutes.  If you have a bug to file, please file it.
[10:02] <viviersf> soz nm
[10:03] <Micksa> and wobbly minimise!!!
[10:03] <sladen> don't Apple have a patent on that crack
[10:04] <Treenaks> sladen: they have the genie effect..
[10:06] <Micksa> man, check out fluendo's site
[10:06] <Micksa> open source is starting to *look* really sexy
[10:06] <Micksa> okay, s/starting/continuing/ :)
[10:07] <viviersf> infinity, soz found the bug filed already
[10:08] <infinity> viviersf: Which bug?
[10:09] <viviersf> infinity, the nvidia-settings + glx bug
[10:09] <infinity> viviersf: That's already been fixed.
[10:10] <infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ apt-cache show nvidia-glx | grep ^Conflicts
[10:10] <infinity> Conflicts: nvidia-glx-src, nvidia-settings
[10:10] <hunger> Could someone please move S18displayconfig-hwprobe.py to a point where python is actually available? (aka. after /usr is mounted).
[10:10] <sladen> Micksa: sexy?  You /do/ remember the original Ubuntu backdrops don't you...
[10:11] <Treenaks> sladen: they didn't wobble!
[10:12] <Micksa> dammit, where is this app?
[10:12] <Micksa> http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/gnome-2-14/images/compositing-manager.png
[10:12] <Treenaks> gconf-editor you mean?
[10:12] <sladen> compiz?
[10:12] <Micksa> ah
[10:12] <Treenaks> or the latest version of metacity?
[10:12] <Micksa> yeah
[10:12] <Treenaks> sladen: this is all metacity
[10:12] <Micksa> gconf-editor
[10:13] <Micksa> I guess gconf-editor is what you use to tweak all the stuff that's been hidden in the name of It Just Works?
[10:13] <Treenaks> Micksa: yeah :)
[10:13] <Treenaks> Micksa: or gconftool-2 if you're hardcore
[10:15] <Micksa> ... nope, apparently I suck
[10:18] <seb128> "thread_db_get_info: cannot get thread info: generic error"
[10:18] <giftnudel> generic errors are nice, at least you know what's going on
[10:19] <Micksa> man, I'm gonna end up being one of those half-assed techie suit guys that doesn't really know about anything
[10:19] <Micksa> I'm scared
[10:19] <Micksa> when DOS was king I knew more than anyone
[10:19] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:20] <raphink> Micksa: if you prefer using a console, you can do so ;)
[10:20] <raphink> Micksa: quite everything can be done with the console
[10:20] <TheMuso> raphink: I can vouch for that.
[10:20] <Micksa> well yeah but that's not my point.
[10:20] <Micksa> I used to be able to recite fucking *interrupt numbers*.
[10:20] <raphink> what's your point then Micksa ?
[10:21] <Micksa> now I have to ask how to configure my apps.
[10:21] <Micksa> it's depressing
[10:21] <giftnudel> your too old, just realize it ;)
[10:21] <raphink> ah ok
[10:21] <Micksa> GNAGRGH
[10:22] <raphink> if you want to do computer stuff, better stay up-to-date
[10:23] <Micksa> it's a horrible decision to make
[10:23] <Micksa> I used to be like a magician
[10:23] <Micksa> but like, well
[10:23] <Micksa> I was the kind of guy who could recite interrupt numbers
[10:23] <raphink> hhmmm so ?
[10:24] <raphink> there are books that list interrupt numbers
[10:24] <Micksa> it's a good thing in *some* circles ;)
[10:24] <raphink> I used to have a program on Mac OS that would give me the description of each
[10:24] <infinity> Very short books, I'd assume, as there were only 15 standard PC interrupts.
[10:24] <Micksa> nono, I'm talking about the, um
[10:24] <infinity> Anyhow, the lamenting of your aging computer skills is seriously offtopic.
[10:24] <raphink> infinity: hehe
[10:24] <Micksa> the values you'd set AX to to perform whatever operation
[10:25] <infinity> Like int 10h, and such?
[10:25] <infinity> Yeah, a few more of those.  Still offtopic. :)
[10:25] <Micksa> OKAY, FINE. </rant>
[10:25] <raphink> Micksa: apart from complaining on the obsolescence of DOS, do you plan on helping with Linux?
[10:26] <Micksa> wel not *right* now. I just felt the urge to rant. sorry.
[10:29] <Micksa> I have blue-sky dreams of helping with Linux in a way not unlike how Mark Shuttleworth is :)
[10:30] <hunger> Micksa: So do I... unfortunately I do not have the wits to get that kind of money together in the foreseeable future:-(
[10:32] <Micksa> I sure am ambitious and confident huh
[10:38] <madduck> Kamion: thanks for the reply and sorry for getting it mixed up. *this* way around it makes perfect sense!
[10:48] <sladen> Riddell: is Kubuntu following the Ubuntu way of letting hotkey-setup handle the mapping of special keys?
[10:48] <sladen> Riddell: if so, I can tell these people to stop playing with xmodmaps
[10:49] <stub> Launchpad will be going down in 15 mins. Estimated downtime is 10 minutes. Wikis will be in read only mode during this period.
[10:49] <sladen> Riddell: eg. 27542
[10:49] <Kamion> madduck: no problem, sorry for the delay in digging into it
[10:53] <pitti> dholbach: yay, I fixed dhcdbd and dhcp3 to finally work properly with networkmanager
[10:54] <sivang> morning follks
[10:55] <sladen> has any here got an old-style Compaq (pre-HP) with special keys along the top?  I could do with some keycodes confirming
[10:55] <Treenaks> thpethial keys?
[10:55] <infinity> pitti: Did you disable dhcdbd's usage of the '-x' flag, or patch dhclient with RedHat's patches to support it?
[10:55] <infinity> pitti: (Yes, I was just looking at the same bug while waiting for Zofia to get ready to go out)
[10:55] <pitti> infinity: the former, and I fixed dhcp3 to actually notify dhcdbd again
[10:56] <pitti> infinity: AFAIU Keybuk, we don't need the -x stuff
[10:56] <infinity> pitti: The feature is interesting anyway, outside the scope of NetworkManager.  But I somehow doubt users are climbing over each other to get it.
[10:57] <infinity> pitti: I expect with a bit of polish, it'll end up in ISC upstream eventually.
[10:57] <pitti> infinity: yes, that's what I'd like to see, too; the patch is pretty intrusive
[10:57] <pitti> well, let's see what else breaks
[10:58] <pitti> we can always reactivate it if we really need it
[10:58] <infinity> Ahh, I haven't looked at the code, just read up on what "-x" does.
[10:58] <infinity> If the patch is ugly, I'm all for dropping it, since we don't actually need it.
[10:58] <pitti> yep, that's what I did in ubuntu5, but I was a bit overzealous
[10:58] <infinity> :)
[10:58] <pitti> I dropped the dbus-send, too :)
[10:58] <pitti> now I put it to the right place
[11:02] <sivang> pitti: I'm too busy with working on HUB, not sure I will have time to create the patch for the volume capabilities. Have you requested / got UVF exception for the new upstream?
[11:02] <siretart> morning
[11:03] <siretart> are there versioned dependencies in rpm packages at all?
[11:04] <sivang> siretart: why are you touching rpm ? :)
[11:04] <j^> how can i switch off all notifications? i dont need them, i.e. i know if i unplug my power cable also the brightnes of my display changes, that is enough feedback for me
[11:05] <siretart> sivang: I don't touch it. it is a discussion about packaging a library: comparison between rpm and dpkg
[11:05] <sivang> siretart: ah, I see.. u-d ML ?
[11:06] <Kamion> yes, rpm has versioned dependencies
[11:06] <Kamion> see http://www.kitenet.net/~joey/pkg-comp/
[11:06] <siretart> ah, thanks for the link, Colin
[11:08] <pitti> aaargh, WTF is linux-source-2.6.15 a native package nowadays???
[11:10] <fabbione> pitti: yes
[11:10] <fabbione> it needs to be
[11:11] <Kamion> why does it need to be?
[11:12] <pitti> fabbione: that sucks, why does it need to?
[11:12] <Kamion> surely "fetch upstream tarball, stick it in ../linux-source-2.6.15_2.6.15.orig.tar.gz" would work fine
[11:12] <pitti> the official 2.6.15 could be the orig.tar.gz
[11:12] <fabbione> Kamion: we are upstream of ourself..
[11:12] <jdub> released from git branch?
[11:12] <Kamion> fabbione: sorry dude but last I checked everyone else thinks Linus is upstream for the kernel
[11:12] <fabbione> pitti: we pull too many patches.. really.. the diff.gz is HUGE
[11:13] <Kamion> I know we have our own version control, but that's not the same thing
[11:13] <fabbione> jdub: yup
[11:13] <jdub> makes sense to me
[11:13] <Kamion> the tar.gz is huge too
[11:13] <jdub> that's the UBUNTU SIX MONTH TIME BASED KERNEL RELEASE branch :-)
[11:13] <Kamion> I don't see a problem with the diff.gz being huge :)
[11:13] <fabbione> Kamion: we are in git from where we push/pull from Linus.
[11:13] <fabbione> there is no concept of upstream anymore
[11:13] <Riddell> sladen: hotkey-setup?  stuff like that should be handled by kmilo
[11:13] <fabbione> Kamion: it only makes a tad easier to work.
[11:14] <Kamion> there is a version of the kernel called "2.6.15"
[11:14] <Kamion> we describe our kernel as "2.6.15"
[11:14] <fabbione> there is also a version called 2.6.15.4
[11:14] <Kamion> therefore the .diff.gz should describe our differences from 2.6.15
[11:14] <Kamion> perfectly normal practice
[11:15] <fabbione> not according to your POV
[11:15] <Kamion> the only difference for the kernel is the fact that it's huge
[11:15] <fabbione> it doesn't come from "upstream"
[11:15] <fabbione> but it's upstream for us...
[11:15] <fabbione> we have too many upstreams...
[11:15] <pitti> I just wanted to check which parts we patch (my friend's vesafb breaks)
[11:15] <fabbione> pitti: that's why you have git :)
[11:15] <fabbione> git-whatchanged $file
[11:16] <pitti> fabbione: grepping a diff.gz is way easier for me than to learn git just for that
[11:16] <Kamion> we have .diff.gz files so that we don't have to learn every revision control system on the planet
[11:16] <sladen> Riddell: for Ubuntu, hotkey-setup and acpi-support make sure that standard keypresses are generated for all magic keys (these are defined in the kernel, see /usr/share/acpi-support/key-constants)  The gnome-power-manager and crack acts on those
[11:16] <Kamion> or check out repositories that take hours to check out
[11:16] <fabbione> Kamion: well the sabdfl wanted our kernel in git...
[11:16] <Kamion> (when you already have a local mirror)
[11:16] <Kamion> fabbione: that's TOTALLY ORTHOGONAL to whether you have a .diff.gz
[11:17] <Kamion> it is UNRELATED
[11:17] <chmj> Kamion: you can still have a look at .diff.gz 
[11:17] <fabbione> Kamion: dude.. you forgot your capslon on
[11:17] <chmj> it is there ! 
[11:17] <fabbione> caplock
[11:17] <sladen> Riddell: so I'm assuming kmilo would eat those standard kernel/Ubuntu key codes in a similar fashion?
[11:17] <siretart> sladen: is hotkey-setup supposed to make ibm volume keys generating x-events?
[11:17] <Kamion> <cjwatson@riva ~>$ ls /mirror/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.15/*.diff.gz
[11:17] <Kamion> ls: /mirror/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.15/*.diff.gz: No such file or directory
[11:17] <Kamion> chmj: no it's not
[11:17] <pitti> chmj: it's native now
[11:17] <sladen> siretart: they will, when elmo has synched 0.14 from Debian
[11:18] <siretart> sladen: I see
[11:18] <chmj> Kamion: oh brother, I use git... *hides* 
[11:18] <Kamion> yeah, you expended the several hours initial bandwidth to get a checkout
[11:19] <janimo> Kamion, can you please move xfdesktop4 binary out of new? thanks
[11:19] <Kamion> I have a local mirror so that I don't have to check out everything known to man in order to see what our differences are
[11:19] <Riddell> sladen: well kmilo makes the mistake of trying to do everything, reading the keys and handling them, where it should read the keys and make sure a standard keypress is generated then let kmix/klaptopdaemon etc handle them
[11:19] <sladen> siretart: let me know how you get on
[11:19] <Kamion> janimo: last I checked it wasn't in NEW ...
[11:20] <Kamion> janimo: I can't check right now because launchpad is down (I think)
[11:20] <sladen> Riddell: right, everything up to the 'generate a standard keypress' is already handled now
[11:20] <Pygi> Kamion: launchpad is not down...
[11:21] <janimo> hmm, I thought that was what you and mdz told me on Friday (was in warty - no longer since hoary discussion)
[11:21] <Kamion> Pygi: well soyuz is hosed, whatever
[11:21] <sladen> Riddell: so if klaptopdaemon listens for KEY_SLEEP/KEY_SUSPEND and kmix listens for KEY_VOLUMEUP/KEY_VOLUMEDOWN then that would work
[11:21] <janimo> I don;t know why else it does not show up in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/x/xfdesktop4/
[11:21] <Kamion> janimo: I don't recall that being about xfdesktop4
[11:21] <janimo> since it build on Wed or Thu I think
[11:21] <Kamion> xfdesktop4 | 4.3.6.4-1ubuntu3 | dapper/universe | amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[11:21] <sladen> Riddell: s/would/should/
[11:21] <Kamion> xfdesktop4 | 4.3.0svn+r19908-0ubuntu1 | dapper/universe | source
[11:21] <Kamion> hmm, that looks odd
[11:21] <janimo> yes the latter is the new source providing the same binary
[11:22] <janimo> for warty we had debian upstream
[11:22] <Riddell> sladen: yeah, but they don't, and nobody has had time (or hardware) to fix it
[11:22] <janimo> for hoary changed to another external package
[11:22] <Kamion> janimo: 4.3.0svn+r19908-0ubuntu1 < 4.3.6.4-1ubuntu3
[11:22] <janimo> than back now to debian source
[11:22] <Kamion> you can't do that
[11:22] <Kamion> version numbers must increase
[11:23] <janimo> oh, that. Rigth so both source and bin versions must incereas
[11:23] <janimo> thanks I completely forgot that, I wish LPL would have mailed me
[11:23] <Kamion> well, especially binary versions
[11:23] <Riddell> infinity: could you give back ept?
[11:23] <Kamion> since those are what users install (and apt won't downgrade automatically)
[11:23] <janimo> Kamion, thanks
[11:24] <Kamion> so either use a higher version number, or (less good) an epoch
[11:24] <sladen> Riddell: hotkey-setup is in the kubuntu-seed?
[11:24] <janimo> higher version, since it will become 4.4 soon anyway
[11:25] <siretart> uuh, hotkey-setup collides with tpb.. hmm
[11:25] <siretart> Cannot open /dev/input/uinput: No such file or directory
[11:25] <siretart> Could not open uinput device: Bad file descriptor
[11:25] <siretart> sladen: ?
[11:26] <sladen> siretart: sudo modprobe uinput ?
[11:26] <sladen> siretart: which it should do
[11:27] <siretart> sladen: yes, the keys are not creating xevs
[11:27] <siretart> they don't have Keysyms mapped, though
[11:27] <siretart>     state 0x0, keycode 159 (keysym 0x0, NoSymbol), same_screen YES,
[11:27] <siretart> for my Access IBM key
[11:28] <Riddell> sladen: yes
[11:30] <siretart> sladen: can I still control my hardware mixer somehow? I assume that the keys only control the software mixer, right?
[11:32] <sladen> siretart: actually they move both if you have a normal thinkpad, and just the software mixer if you have an Acer knockoff
[11:33] <sladen> siretart: AccessIBM should generate KEY_PROG1 and can you remap that from  System->Preferences->Keyboard Shortcuts
[11:33] <siretart> hm. interesting
[11:34] <sladen> siretart: the R40e doesn't have a hardware mixer;  I think the R40 does
[11:34] <siretart> yes, the R40 has
[11:35] <sladen> siretart: try playing some music and check the volume up/down/left/right/mute  do as expected  (Don't think too hard, so try it as a normal user would expect when they don't know there are two mixers)
[11:36] <siretart> sladen: great work. Works as expected!
[11:36] <sladen> siretart: then I'll tell you the one case where it doesn't
[11:38] <siretart> sladen: what is the special case?
[11:38] <sladen> siretart: (hardware mute, followed but right-click software unmute)
[11:39] <siretart> puh. you're right. 
[11:39] <siretart> that could be somewhat confusing
[11:39] <sladen> I have written a separate little daemon to sync the software mute status back to the hardware, but I haven't worked out where to load it from...
[11:39] <siretart> it unmutes as soon as the user presses the volume keys on the keyboard again..
[11:40] <siretart> I see
[11:47] <seb128> Kamion: if I want to give a try to espresso, better to use flight-4 or daily CD?
[11:47] <Chipzz> pos :P
[11:47] <Kamion> seb128: no difference yet
[11:47] <seb128> ok
[11:48] <Kamion> will be from tomorrow though, I'm adding a language dialog
[11:48] <Kamion> er, page
[11:57] <Kamion> janimo: the use of Conflicts in xfce4-mixer-{alsa,oss} is weird
[11:58] <janimo> Kamion, what should it look like?
[11:58] <Kamion> janimo: you have Conflicts: xfce4-mixer (<= 4.3.0-1) in both of those
[11:58] <Kamion> janimo: shouldn't that bit be in Replaces instead? since you ship files in those packages that used to be in xfce4-mixer
[11:58] <janimo> between alsa and oss or between versions?
[11:58] <Kamion> that's what Replaces is for
[11:58] <Kamion> the bidirectional Conflicts between alsa and oss is fine
[11:59] <janimo> I'll have a look, thanks
[11:59] <Kamion> but you definitely need Replaces: xfce4-mixer (<= 4.3.0-1)
[11:59] <Kamion> if installing xfce4-mixer-{alsa,oss} 4.3.x will break xfce4-mixer <= 4.3.0-1, then the Conflicts is fine too
[12:00] <Kamion> am I being at all clear? :)
[12:00] <Kamion> basically, whenever you move a file from one package to another, you must have a Replaces in the new package
[12:00] <janimo> yes
[12:00] <janimo> clear :)
[12:00] <Kamion> Conflicts+Replaces has a special meaning documented in Debian policy
[12:01] <janimo> I have keybuk's rant on the subject bookmarked but need to read it more often than once per week :)
[12:01] <Kamion> his rant's kind of not very much related to this
[12:02] <janimo> hmm, maybe that's why I am getting it wrong then
[12:02] <janimo> I know I need replaces if a package overwrites some files in another
[12:02] <janimo> I'll have to see why I did not do this in mixer
[12:03] <ogra_ibook> his rant only says that Conflicts+Replaces only apply to files inside the package, not to the package itself 
[12:03] <Kamion> right, doesn't apply here because they really do share files
[12:03] <ogra_ibook> ah
[12:03] <janimo> yes but it contains useful bits of info
[12:03] <janimo> the rant that is
[12:12] <Kinnison> Kamion: May I please pester you for a UVF exception for gnome-power-manager again? Richard Hughes has been taking on board vast amounts from our users and released 2.13.91 (to replace 2.13.90) last night. Packages at http://people.ubuntu.com/~dsilvers/gpm-nuv/
[12:16] <Kamion> Kinnison: looks fine, thans
[12:16] <Kamion> +k
[12:17] <Kinnison> Kamion: thank you, I think he's trying to follow gnomeish release patterns on this, I'm not sure
[12:19] <Kinnison> #op[
[12:19] <Kinnison> ] 
[12:19] <Kinnison> p] [[[
[12:19] <seb128> they proposed g-p-m for GNOME desktop that cycle
[12:20] <seb128> it was rejected for somes details though (lack of integration, etc)
[12:20] <seb128> but I think they follow the cycle anyway
[12:24] <Kinnison> right
[12:38] <sivang> morning Kinnison 
[12:39] <sivang> Kamion: HUB related question: when attempting to burn the same filename on a multisession CD, do they conflict? (trying to think how to deal with incremental backups and successive ones by the same file name)
[12:40] <Treenaks> sivang: afaik, they overwrite
[12:40] <Treenaks> sivang: (or replace, depending on how you look at it )
[12:40] <sivang> Treenaks: even if it's a CDR and not CDRW ?
[12:41] <Treenaks> sivang: Well, they will be re-written, but the same filename points to another piece of disk
[12:41] <sivang> Treenaks: okay, cool, thanks. What I had assumed :)
[12:41] <Treenaks> sivang: so for the user it looks like it's overwritten, but it does cost you disk space
[12:41] <Treenaks> (and in Cd-players that don't understand multisession, you'll only see the first session, afaik)
[01:04] <pitti> Kinnison: I uploaded more security stuff today, but the last lp_queue mail I got was from 09:45 today; did it stop for some reason?
[01:05] <Kamion> there was a launchpad rollout, but it's not entirely obvious to me that soyuz has been restarted
[01:06] <Kinnison> There was a raft of permissions errors in the launchpad tree rolled out to drescher
[01:06] <Kinnison> it has not yet been restarted
[01:08] <pitti> ok, so it's known; good
[01:18] <pitti> Riddell: hmm, I can't test the new amarok, soyuz doesn't appear to export translation tarballs 
[01:20] <Riddell> pitti: that could be quite a problem for our non-english speakers :)
[01:23] <freeflying> who is in charge of the archive server of ubuntu
[01:27] <pitti> Kinnison: does the cronjob run again for the invocation in 8 minutes?
[01:30] <ogra> jdub, 12_shaped_splash.patch results for me in 12_completely_invisible_splash.patch on poerpc
[01:31] <ogra> *powerpc
[01:31] <Treenaks> ogra: \o/ ?
[01:32] <Kinnison> pitti: should all be back up now
[01:32] <pitti> thanks
[01:34] <dholbach> ogra: that's functionality which will be exposed by a change in ubuntu-artwork
[01:34] <ogra> dholbach, ah, the changelog didnt mention that ... i was waiting for a shiny new screen :)
[01:35] <dholbach> we all were
[01:35] <dholbach> :-)
[01:35] <ogra> is that documented somewhere, so i can keep up with edubuntu-artwork ?
[01:36] <ogra> jdub, ?? ^^^
[01:36] <dholbach> ogra: sent you a link
[01:37] <ogra> thanks
[01:39] <Kinnison> I've bounced the announce mails to the list
[01:39] <Kinnison> their 'to' line is a bit buggered but at least they're archived now
[01:43] <doko> is archive.ubuntu.com down?
[01:44] <hunger> doko: Worked for me.
[01:44] <hunger> doko: Was awfully slow for the last couple of min though.
[01:52] <rjune> pitti: Is there a reason that there hasn't been anything like /etc/profiles.d/ setup for sudoers? aka, /etc/sudoers.d/ ?
[01:53] <pitti> rjune: what should that be good for?
[01:53] <pitti> rjune: ah, you mean a split sudoers file?
[01:53] <rjune> well, in my case, I want to add a line so that anybody can run a specific command as a specific user.
[01:53] <rjune> yeah
[01:53] <pitti> rjune: I guess that would just encourage packages to drop stuff into it, which would be wrong
[01:54] <pitti> rjune: just write it into /etc/sudoers?
[01:54] <rjune> is there a reason it would be wrong? or is that just accepted practice?
[01:54] <rjune> I would prefer to do it with a package, not manually
[01:54] <pitti> rjune: that's exactly the way it is intended to
[01:54] <pitti> no, you don't want packages to mess with your sudo privilege policy
[01:55] <pitti> s/you/we/ :)
[01:55] <rjune> well actually, I do want *MY* packages to. maybe not yours.
[01:55] <rjune> I admin a bunch of LTSP boxes, and it would be nice if I could just push out the package and be done with it.
[01:57] <Kamion> /etc/sudoers is a configuration file, not a conffile; so your package could just append to it
[01:57] <rjune> I do that now, it's just cleaner the other way
[01:58] <Kamion> .d directories are more useful for conffiles (i.e. configuration files that are actually shipped in .debs rather than edited in maintainer scripts) because editing those in packages has harmful effects
[01:58] <Kamion> I'd be inclined to avoid the extra complexity of dealing with lots of configuration files in a program that elevates privilege
[01:58] <Kamion> the simpler the better
[01:58] <ogra> Keybuk, i noticed that if i run nfs connections over nm managed interfaces it gets very flaky ... 
[01:59] <rjune> but writing scripts to deal with sudoers is way easier?
[01:59] <ogra> Keybuk, could that be a dchpdbdb bug ?
[01:59] <Kamion> those scripts are not setuid and installed on hundreds of thousands of machines worldwide :P
[01:59] <Kamion> the consequences of them going wrong aren't as bad
[01:59] <Kamion> dealing with sudoers is pretty trivial, anyway
[02:00] <rjune> it's not too bad, thats true. 
[02:01] <Kamion> I think if it were a less critical program then a .d directory might well make sense, but we should keep sudo as simple as we can (well, relative to its current extremely complex state ...)
[02:01] <Keybuk> ogra: shouldn't think so ... dhcdbd is just "run and kill dhclient"
[02:02] <ogra> hmm, k
[02:02] <ogra> its just that i see it on different machines ... 
[02:03] <ogra> ls takes about 10mins to respond for example ... if i remove nm and bring up the interface manually it works as expected
[02:03] <Keybuk> odd, wireless interface?
[02:04] <ogra> yup
[02:04] <ogra> both bcm43xx ....
[02:05] <ogra> one in my ibook, one linksys pcmcia card ...
[02:05] <ogra> i'll test with another card soon (currently busy with the last feature goal work)
[02:09] <ploum> http://ploum.fritalk.com/cosmogotchi.png : my answer to jdub post !
[02:09] <ploum> Also http://ploum.fritalk.com/cosmogotchi2.png seems a bit improved
[02:10] <Treenaks> ploum: whoa :)
[02:10] <ploum> hello Treenaks :-)
[02:10] <Treenaks> You've been taking lessons from Yoe? :)
[02:10] <ploum> Yoe ? 
[02:10] <HiddenWolf> ploum: sweet. 
[02:11] <ploum> No, I'm just using gimp. This wonderful software does it nearly alone !
[02:11] <ploum> :-)
[02:12] <Treenaks> ploum: You. Wouter Verhelst
[02:12] <Treenaks> ploum: uh.. Yoe that is
[02:13] <ploum> I'm not sure I can do as good looking hackergotchi as he does
[02:13] <Treenaks> ploum: he wrote the HOWTO :)
[02:14] <ploum> Treenaks: yes, I think I've read it once !
[02:14] <ploum> So he deserves the credit :-)
[02:15] <ploum> Wouter also created planet.grep.be which is very cool :-)
[02:18] <jsgotangco> sladen: thanks, i understand bug 32267 now
[02:18] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32267 in linux-source-2.6.15 "Hibernate function key KEY_SUSPEND is dropped by kernel." [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32267
[02:21] <sladen> jsgotangco: lets make that the canonical bug then unless I find a better one
[02:21] <jsgotangco> sure
[02:23] <Mithrandir> sladen: you're insane. :-)
[02:23] <sladen> Mithrandir: which particularly piece of crack?
[02:24] <Mithrandir> sladen: the casper raw device crack.
[02:24] <Mithrandir> sladen: get_fstype won't ever return "cloop", there's no way to detect a cloop image.
[02:25] <Mithrandir> (or, there might be, but fstype won't give you it)
[02:27] <sladen> Mithrandir: sure there is, it starts with   #define CLOOP_PREAMBLE "#!/bin/sh\n" "#V2.0 Format\n" "insmod cloop.o...
[02:28] <jbailey> Keybuk: Haround?
[02:28] <Keybuk> yup
[02:28] <sladen> Mithrandir: want me to file a bug?  ;-)
[02:29] <jbailey> Keybuk: This morning's reboot got the interfaces in the right order, but didn't seem to actually run the dhclient on it.  ifup claimed the interface was already up.  Where's the best place to look to see what happened?
[02:29] <Mithrandir> sladen: it's not an fstype anyway so no, no need to.
[02:29] <Treenaks> jbailey: are you using resolvconf?
[02:30] <Keybuk> jbailey: *blink* ... that makes it sound like /var/run/network/ifstate had stuff in it
[02:30] <jbailey> Treenaks: If that's a package, I don't have it installed.
[02:30] <Keybuk> which makes it sounds like /var/run isn't a tmpfs
[02:30] <jbailey> varrun                 2018640       100   2018540   1% /var/run
[02:30] <Keybuk> check /etc/network/interfaces too
[02:31] <jbailey> auto lo; iface lo inet loopback; auto eth0 ; iface eth0 inet dhcp; iface eth1 inet dhcp
[02:31] <jbailey> Which is correct - eth1 isn't plugged into anything.
[02:31] <jbailey> I only have it defined in there so that when the interfaces got mapped wrong I could ifup eth1 and get going. =)
[02:32] <Keybuk> right
[02:32] <Keybuk> what's in /var/run/network/ifstate ?
[02:32] <jbailey> That 2 gigs is a maximum, right? =)
[02:32] <jbailey> lo=lo; eth0=eth0
[02:32] <Keybuk> that two gigs is your memory usage :)
[02:33] <Keybuk> ok ... uh, check /proc/mounts for /var/run ;)
[02:33] <jbailey> tmpfs /var/run tmpfs rw 0 0
[02:33] <Keybuk> just checking
[02:33] <Keybuk> right
[02:33] <Keybuk> so it's up then
[02:33] <stockholm> ah, jbailey 
[02:33] <Keybuk> do you have network-manager installed?
[02:33] <Keybuk> or dhcdbd?
[02:33] <jbailey> stockholm: g'm.  Scott might ask me to reboot, so chatting should wait for a sec.
[02:34] <jbailey> Neither.
[02:34] <stockholm> sure
[02:34] <sladen> Mithrandir: if you're going to take that patch and you think it'd be worth it I could add something  [ $(dd if=/dev/$dev bs=1 count=10) = '!#/bin/... cloop shebang' ] 
[02:34] <Keybuk> jbailey: no dhclient3 running?
[02:34] <stockholm> my wife stole my phone
[02:34] <jbailey> Keybuk: FWIW, this is my dual g5 box - not a laptop or anything.
[02:35] <jbailey> dhcp      5017     1  0 08:17 ?        00:00:00 dhclient3 -pf /var/run/dhclient.eth0.pid -lf /var/lib/dhcp3/dhclient.eth0.leases eth0
[02:35] <jbailey> dhcp      5273     1  0 08:26 ?        00:00:00 dhclient eth0
[02:35] <sladen> Mithrandir: the other optimisation that can be done is that if it's a squashfs it doesn't need mounting via a loopback and can be used directly
[02:35] <jbailey> Hmm
[02:35] <Mithrandir> sladen: cloops are deprecated, so no need.
[02:35] <Keybuk> jbailey: that "dhclient eth0" is suspicious :)
[02:35] <jbailey> Keybuk: That's the one I ran by hand, I suspect.
[02:35] <Keybuk> indeed
[02:35] <Keybuk> well, I don't see a problem here
[02:35] <Keybuk> everything is consistent, the interface is up and dhclient3 is running on it
[02:36] <Keybuk> it may be just that dhclient isn't getting an IP
[02:36] <jbailey> Is there any way to ask dhclient3 why it hasn't seen fit to give me an IP address?
[02:36] <Keybuk> it usually says in the syslog every time it tries
[02:36] <sladen> Mithrandir: I was assuming other people might still use casper and choose a cloop
[02:36] <sladen> Mithrandir: everything else is still agnositc
[02:36] <jbailey> Keybuk: 'kay.  When I next reboot if I get the same thing, I'll dig i nthere to see what I find.
[02:36] <jbailey> Thanks, Scott.
[02:36] <hunger> Any idea how to debug a suspend issue?
[02:36] <zakame> evening all
[02:37] <Mithrandir> sladen: *shrug*, it'll simplify casper a fair bit.
[02:37] <Mithrandir> sladen: it's not a dapper thing anyway
[02:37] <hunger> I got a log of pmi action suspend... which claims that "device or resource busy" when doing echo -n mem > /sys/power/state.
[02:38] <sladen> Mithrandir: what isn't, deprecating cloop?
[02:38] <Mithrandir> sladen: yes
[02:43] <jdub> ogra: you can't see the splash at all, and icons float in the air?
[02:44] <dholbach> jdub: any idea on malone bug 32168 and gnome bug 328475 ?
[02:44] <ogra> yup
[02:44] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32168 in ekiga "ekiga: Image icontray, not is transparent" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32168
[02:44] <Ubugtu> gnome bug 328475 in general "System tray icon doesn't have a transparent background" [Enhancement,Resolved: notabug]  http://bugs.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328475
[02:44] <jdub> dholbach: ask damien on #gnome-hackers
[02:44] <dholbach> jdub: according to upstream it's a theme bug, not an app bug
[02:45] <jdub> dholbach: possibly
[02:45] <ogra> dholbach, are you sure the icon tray isnt at fault ? there is the same bug for g-p-m
[02:45] <dholbach> ogra: and for xchat-gnome and ....
[02:46] <ogra> yup
[02:46] <dholbach> ogra: I dont' know what you mean by "icon tray at fault"
[02:46] <jdub> well, it's a systemic problem really
[02:46] <ogra> if the notification area is buggy with displaying transparency you wont fix it in the icon ...
[02:46] <jdub> the app draws that little square
[02:46] <seb128> that's a gnome-panel bug
[02:47] <HiddenWolf> yeah, all apps have it.
[02:47] <seb128> hey vuntz :)
[02:47] <ogra> hehe
[02:47] <jdub> so it isn't really anyone's bug, it's just a problem with the standard, how themes are implemented, etc.
[02:47] <dholbach> seb128: cool, I'll DUP the bugs we have then and assign them to vuntz! woohoo! :)
[02:48] <seb128> GNOME bug #100600
[02:48] <Ubugtu> gnome bug 100600 in Notification Area Applet "Notification area doesn't support all the panel background types" [Minor,New]  http://bugs.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100600
[02:49] <tepsipakki> lamont: you dropped NFSv4-support that was in util-linux_2.12r-4.1?
[02:49] <dholbach> seb128: thanks, I'll take care of those, then.
[02:52] <jdub> norm walsh is using dapper ;)
[02:53] <jdub> http://norman.walsh.name/2006/02/19/bleedingEdge
[02:53] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gfxboot-theme-ubuntu/+bug/32183 is weird - it affects precisely one language
[02:53] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32183 in gfxboot-theme-ubuntu "Graphical bug with Zhngwn language" [Normal,Confirmed]  
[02:54] <Mithrandir> what language is Zhngwn?
[02:54] <Kamion> zh_CN
[02:54] <Mithrandir> oh, unshiny.
[02:55] <Kamion> I'll just have to read and understand all the menu drawing code, I guess :(
[03:06] <infinity> Riddell: Done.
[03:10] <Riddell> infinity: thanks, could you do the same for kdesdk
[03:10] <xerox_> seb128: hi.
[03:11] <seb128> Hi xerox_
[03:11] <infinity> Riddell: And done.
[03:11] <xerox_> seb128: may I ask you some advice wrt libsvg and libsvg-cairo packaging?  I got some undecipherable issues on revu.
[03:12] <seb128> libsvg? what is that?
[03:12] <seb128> but sure
[03:12] <xerox_> seb128: <http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/libsvg-0602200825/REVU_report> is the problematic one.
[03:12] <xerox_> seb128: <http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/libsvg-cairo-0602200825/REVU_report> is quite good.
[03:12] <slomo_> Kamion: hi... can you remove banshee from NEW for x86? it's currently there because i splitted off a plugin to a separate package...
[03:13] <xerox_> seb128: libsvg is a dependency for libsvg-cairo.  It is written my cworth, based on librsvg by someone other.
[03:13] <seb128> slomo_: and you changed your mind? :)
[03:13] <Kamion> slomo_: please don't confuse me by saying "remove"
[03:13] <Kamion> do you mean "accept" or "reject"?
[03:13] <seb128> xerox_: why having librsvg and libsvg?
[03:13] <slomo_> Kamion: i mean accept... sorry for the confusion...
[03:14] <Kamion> slomo_: I'll do it after this publisher run finishes
[03:14] <xerox_> seb128: there isn't either of them in ubuntu nor in debian.
[03:14] <slomo_> Kamion: thanks :)
[03:14] <seb128> xerox_: what do you mean?
[03:15] <Kamion> I thought I'd processed banshee the other day, actually, but evidently not
[03:15] <seb128> xerox_: I mean what is the advantage of that new one over librsvg?
[03:16] <xerox_> seb128: I don't know the reason behind the rewrite.
[03:16] <Kamion> I think I looked at it, was about to accept it, and then the publisher kicked in
[03:17] <infinity> Kamion: linux-source-2.6.15 has been rescued on powerpc, and it's now in NEW.  I think that's my cue to go to bed.  Enjoy.
[03:18] <Kamion> infinity: thanks
[03:20] <xerox_> seb128: I'm investigating
[03:20] <seb128> k
[03:21] <ogra> Mithrandir, do you have a bug for the liveCD i can duplicate bug 32305 and bug 32306 to ?
[03:21] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32305 in edubuntu-meta edubuntu-live "Edubuntu dapper flight4 live: Ejects wrong cd upon shutdown" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32305
[03:21] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32306 in edubuntu-meta edubuntu-live "Suspend quits unexpectantly" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32306
[03:22] <infinity> Kamion: After you NEW those kernels, can you poke Kinnison with a stick to reset the build for LRM on PPC, so I can go to bed and not worry about it? :)
[03:22] <Kamion> slomo_: done
[03:23] <slomo_> Kamion: thanks :)
[03:23] <xerox_> seb128: that was the right question.  cworth advices using librsvg.
[03:23] <seb128> :)
[03:24] <janimo> Kamion, do you know if the mirroring script of the xubuntu seeds stopped for some reason?
[03:24] <janimo> I made the branch anew a couple of days ago, but keeping the ubuntu ancestor
[03:25] <xerox_> seb128: do you think it's doable to package librsvg and get it into dapper if I start looking into it now?
[03:25] <seb128> xerox_: librsvg is packaging for years now, that's what GNOME uses for svg for ages in fact ...
[03:25] <Mithrandir> ogra: no.  The latter isn't a bug in casper anyway, it's probably a bug in the suspend tool.
[03:25] <Kamion> janimo: it got stuck on a lock; I've kicked it
[03:26] <janimo> thanks
[03:26] <Kamion> janimo: but if you did that I'll probably have to re-pull from scratch
[03:26] <seb128> xerox_: ii  librsvg2-2               2.13.93-0ubuntu1         SAX-based renderer library for SVG files. (for GNOME2)
[03:26] <Kamion> please try not to do that in future
[03:26] <ogra> Mithrandir, ok
[03:26] <janimo> but it should be ok with bzr no?
[03:26] <janimo> pulling from a related branch
[03:26] <xerox_> seb128: thank you very much.  I probably should ask some motu to nuke my libsvg and libsvg-cairo attempts.
[03:27] <seb128> xerox_: you're welcome
[03:27] <janimo> I had to do it because bzr 0.8pre corrupted the repo
[03:27] <Kamion> janimo: as long as it's a descendant of whatever I had before, that's fine
[03:27] <Kamion> I thought you meant that you re-branched from the Ubuntu seeds
[03:27] <Kamion> anyway, updated now
[03:27] <janimo> yes I rebranched, is that not ok?
[03:27] <janimo> the
[03:28] <janimo> maybe that caused the lock, then but I thought bzr should handle this
[03:28] <Kamion> the last commit I have was:
[03:28] <Kamion> revno: 512
[03:28] <Kamion> committer: jani <jani@ds9.narancs.net>
[03:28] <Kamion> timestamp: Tue 2006-02-21 16:16:32 +0200
[03:28] <Kamion> message:
[03:28] <Kamion>   add xfce4-mixer-alsa
[03:28] <janimo> yes, good
[03:28] <Kamion> does that match your branch?
[03:28] <Kamion> and I don't see in that that you re-branched from the Ubuntu seeds
[03:28] <Kamion> there are lots of old merges in there
[03:28] <xerox_> seb128: where could I read librsvg documentation?
[03:28] <Kamion> (good)
[03:30] <janimo> oh, I actually rebranched from the xubuntu seeds on your page. I forgot.so it's all fine now, thanks
[03:32] <seb128> xerox_: http://librsvg.sourceforge.net/ maybe
[03:33] <Kamion> janimo: ok, *that's* fine
[03:34] <Kamion> janimo: re-branching from the Ubuntu seeds would mean that when I run 'bzr pull' it would refuse to pull your seeds and demand that I merge instead, because the branches would have diverged
[03:34] <Kamion> (obviously I'd just throw away the branch and re-pull instead if that happened, but it would be an inconvenience)
[03:34] <janimo> Kamion, ok I tought you bzr merge in the script
[03:35] <Kamion> hell no
[03:35] <Kamion> why would I want to do that? :)
[03:35] <janimo> to prevent such accidents :)
[03:35] <Kamion> it's a mirror, not an auto-merged thing
[03:35] <Kamion> such accidents Never Happen (tm)
[03:35] <Kamion> if they do, I want to know about them!
[03:35] <Kamion> also, merging all the time would make the log look very strange
[03:35] <janimo> fair enough
[03:37] <JaneW> who knows about SCIM and who the upstream author is?
[03:37] <Yagisan> JaneW: minghua is the scim guy IIRC
[03:38] <JaneW> Yagisan: cool thanks
[03:38] <JaneW> Yagisan: I found this "JamesSu: Core developer, project maintainer"
[03:40] <Yagisan> JaneW: your welcome. I need to get around to downloading flight 4 and testing scim, so I don't have any surprises on upgrade.
[03:54] <slomo_> pvanhoof: "messed up" in what way? evolution-sharp simply doesn't work with e-d-s 1.5/1.6... but mail searching should still work, this only affects searching the address book
[03:55] <pvanhoof> there's no .dll in the package
[03:55] <pvanhoof> it only contains the doc/ files
[03:55] <pvanhoof> how can it support anything that way? :-)
[03:56] <Kamion> beagle-backend-evolution is obsolete ...
[03:56] <pvanhoof> so which one do I need for the evolution support?
[03:56] <slomo_> pvanhoof: that dll would only be for searching the address book... when searching mails doesn't work it is a bug and should be filed ;)
[03:57] <Kamion> well, not currently built, I mean
[03:57] <pvanhoof> pvanhoof@lort:~/.beagle$  beagled --list-backends | grep Evo
[03:57] <pvanhoof> pvanhoof@lort:~/.beagle$
[03:57] <pvanhoof> slomo_, okay but the current beagle package in dapper doesn't have support for evolution at all
[03:58] <pvanhoof> so the bug is .. that the support-plugin isn't available? 
[03:59] <Kamion> ogra: do xscreensaver-data-extra and xscreensaver-gl-extra need to be seeded somewhere?
[03:59] <slomo_> pvanhoof: let me check... well, the problem is that the evolution backend needs evolution-sharp which produces crashes with e-d-s 1.5/1.6... but it would be only used for searching in the address book afaik... searching mails works by looking in the directory in your home and needs nothing...
[03:59] <ogra> nope, they are for universe
[03:59] <ogra> Kamion, ^^^
[04:00] <pvanhoof> ok
[04:00] <ogra> Kamion, you can keep them in supported if you think that makes sense ... i have to care for the whole package anyway
[04:01] <Kamion> ogra: it's up to you
[04:01] <Keybuk> pitti: you know that hal spits evil error on stop/shutdown, yes?
[04:01] <ogra> heh, i dont really care ... 
[04:01] <pitti> Keybuk: no, details?
[04:01] <ogra> lets put themm into supported for now ...
[04:01] <slomo_> pvanhoof: but next time better file a bug instead of saying something here... it was pure luck that i noticed it
[04:01] <JaneW> Yagisan: him? -> https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
[04:01] <pvanhoof> slomo_, okay :)
[04:02] <Keybuk> pitti: kill needs arguments, or something
[04:03] <pvanhoof> Kamion, if that package is obsolute .. shouldn't it be removed from the distro? atm it only contains the copyright files
[04:03] <pitti> Keybuk: /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal start/stop/restart works well for me
[04:04] <slomo_> pvanhoof: it's remaining from an older version currently... and will come back later when it works again
[04:04] <Kagou> hi
[04:05] <Yagisan> JaneW: yes
[04:05] <pvanhoof> ok
[04:06] <Keybuk> pitti: it does for me here too, will see if the message is still there
[04:06] <JaneW> Yagisan: ok ta. are you sure? He is not mentioned on http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fscim
[04:06] <Keybuk> have only seen it on shutdown so far
[04:06] <janimo> ogra, xss stays in main right?
[04:06] <pitti> Keybuk: I'm currently hacking on hal anyway, so it would be a good time to fix stuff :)
[04:06] <Keybuk> pitti: I need to reboot in a bit, so will look for it then
[04:06] <Yagisan> JaneW: upstream == debian or debian upstream ?
[04:06] <Kamion> pvanhoof: after the change of the archive infrastructure a while back, I only just worked out how to get an automatic list of such packages ("not built from source") about ten minutes ago
[04:06] <pitti> Keybuk: I see what *could* go wrong
[04:07] <pitti> Keybuk: that could happen if the pid file still exists, but is empty
[04:07] <pitti> Keybuk: I will refine the check to avoid this message
[04:07] <ogra> janimo, not sure ... but if you need it, we can keep it :)
[04:07] <pvanhoof> ok
[04:07] <janimo> ogra, well yes for xubuntu
[04:07] <Kagou> am I alone having the problem when i select language on the boot of flight4 (install or live), that's make the boot menu inaccessible, so i must reboot? is this reported ?
[04:07] <ogra> ok
[04:07] <janimo> thanks
[04:07] <Yagisan> JaneW: he is the debian maintainer. Did I misunderstand you ?
[04:07] <Kamion> Kagou: are you selecting French?
[04:07] <Kagou> yes Kamion 
[04:08] <Kamion> Kagou: your keymap has driven me almost entirely insane. It's a known bug.
[04:08] <janimo> the fancy gl bits or whatever else can go to universe, just the basic screensavers are ok
[04:08] <Kamion> and it only affects French
[04:08] <pitti> Keybuk: oh, do you use dash? $(< $PIDFILE) could be a bashism
[04:08] <Kagou> ok Kamion. if i can help you ... thanls
[04:08] <ogra> janimo, thats why i split the package into multiple pieces ...
[04:09] <ogra> janimo, xscreensaver-data and xscreensaver-gl contain only a small subset of selected hacks
[04:09] <janimo> right, the only patch which is dropped for dapper but in breezy we may need is the circles in password field
[04:09] <Kamion> Kagou: I'll probably just override it to death - I think it's just bizarre arrow key handling
[04:09] <Keybuk> pitti: nope, no dash
[04:09] <JaneW> Yagisan: no, I think I didn't specify well... I need the upstream author
[04:09] <ogra> janimo, i wont do work on more than one screensaver app ..
[04:10] <janimo> ogra, I know I'll pick the patch if necessary
[04:10] <ogra> janimo, feel free to patch it yourself :)
[04:10] <Kagou> Kamion, is there a bug in malone ? i can't find it
[04:10] <ogra> janimo, the breezy patch s a dpatch that should mainly apply without issues even in dapper
[04:11] <ogra> just grab the source from breezy and try to add the patch to dapper
[04:11] <pitti> Keybuk: ok, should be fixed
[04:11] <Keybuk> pitti: :)
[04:11] <Keybuk> thanks
[04:11] <Kamion> Kagou: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gfxboot-theme-ubuntu/+bug/31767
[04:11] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31767 in gfxboot-theme-ubuntu "Keyboard stop responding in installer splash screen" [Major,Confirmed]  
[04:11] <slomo_> pvanhoof: ok, you're right... it really doesn't work *sigh*
[04:11] <Kagou> thnx Kamion
[04:12] <pvanhoof> :)
[04:12] <pvanhoof> slomo_, np. Just fix it :)
[04:12] <janimo> ogra, yes I looked at that patch a while ago. that circle stuff seemed to be a large xpm inside C source IIRC
[04:12] <janimo> big patch
[04:13] <ogra> nope, its separate xpms in a patch... not in the source ...
[04:14] <Yagisan> JaneW: sorry then. I don't know who the authors are
[04:14] <JaneW> Yagisan: thanks for trying. I'll possibly ask Minghua anyway...
[04:15] <janimo> ogra, I must misremember then
[04:16] <janimo> I know there was a large diff to a C file containing something that looked like a xpm struct
[04:16] <ogra> note that if it doesnt apply it will be a lot of work to integrate it right ...
[04:20] <mjg59> Argh, lists.ubuntu has just dumped a huge pile of stuff on me
[04:31] <Kamion> mjg59: I think jdub did a big moderation pass
[04:33] <jdub> 8)
[04:33] <jdub> didn't approve of much though
[04:34] <Keybuk> heh
[04:35] <Kinnison> jdub: you're in the UK now aren't you?
[04:36] <Treenaks> jdub: btw, I'll be at FOSDEM on Saturday
[04:36] <mjg59> Is Mark back in the country, or still in Asia?
[04:38] <pitti> Kinnison: ok, I'm going to write a proper probe for your PMI thingy
[04:38] <Keybuk> mjg59: dunno, but he's certainly active on e-mail today
[04:38] <mjg59> Cool
[04:40] <Kinnison> pitti: cool
[04:40] <jsgotangco> it's supposed to be his last day in thailand today
[04:40] <Kinnison> pitti: I was gonna do a patch for lcds today
[04:40] <Kinnison> pitti: to get the levels right for sony laptops
[04:40] <pitti> Kinnison: oh, you are working on the hal package ATM?
[04:41] <Kinnison> pitti: I was about to start
[04:41] <pitti> Kinnison: I do, so we shouldn't stomp on each other's feet
[04:41] <Kinnison> pitti: I can punt you the patch file when I'm done
[04:41] <pitti> Kinnison: ok, that should be fine
[04:41] <pitti> I cleaned up the privilege dropping stuff
[04:41] <jdub> Kinnison: i am in the office
[04:41] <jdub> Treenaks: rad!
[04:42] <jdub> mjg59: thailand
[04:42] <pitti> Kinnison: so, hal by default assumes that you can suspend and hibernate without checking? that's weird
[04:42] <Kinnison> pitti: well it checks /sys/power/state
[04:42] <Kinnison> pitti: osspec.c
[04:42] <pitti> ah, I see
[04:43] <mjg59> I don't see why we'd want hal to claim otherwise
[04:44] <pitti> mjg59: Kinnison's patch asks pmi, which respects /etc/default/acpi settings
[04:44] <mjg59> No!
[04:44] <mjg59> We shouldn't do that
[04:44] <mjg59> The point of having this is that people can enable sleep without having to hack files as root
[04:45] <mjg59> We should just have g-p-m provide a warning dialogue when somebody enables sleep
[04:45] <pitti> but it's for disabling, not enabling
[04:46] <pitti> i. e. I know that STD is broken for me, so I could disable it in acpi-support to not see it in the GUI
[04:47] <pitti> mjg59: ah, I see, STR is disabled by default
[04:48] <mjg59> pitti: Correct
[04:48] <pitti> hmm, well, Kinnison?
[04:48] <mjg59> Why is STD broken for you?
[04:48] <Kinnison> I was making hal display what pmi would be prepared to do
[04:48] <mjg59> Kinnison: Right, that's not the best plan
[04:48] <pitti> mjg59: on the laptop it has always been (STR works fine, after STD the graphics card is not reinit'ed properly, so I get a black screen)
[04:49] <pitti> mjg59: on the desktop, STD + nvidia doesn't work (nv does, though)
[04:49] <mjg59> pitti: Apple?
[04:49] <Kinnison> mjg59: but hal uses pmi to do the suspend, so surely hal shouldn't claim something pmi will refuse to do?
[04:49] <mjg59> Kinnison: No, because hal forces pmi
[04:49] <pitti> mjg59: yes, the laptop (where acpi isn't relevant anyway)
[04:49] <mjg59> pmi will do it quite happily
[04:49] <jdub> o/~ push the bzr o/~
[04:49] <mjg59> pitti: We should try to fix that. I believe it's supposed to work.
[04:49] <mjg59> pitti: Have you spoken to benh?
[04:49] <pitti> mjg59: I'd be happy to :)
[04:50] <pitti> mjg59: yes, this bug is ages old, it sits somewhere in bugzilla, even fd.o's AFAIK
[04:50] <Keybuk> jdub: I want an ogg of that
[04:50] <pitti> but I didn't follow it closely, STR works just fine
[04:50] <mjg59> pitti: The console ought to be restored if you suspend from there
[04:51] <jdub> Keybuk: i want an ogg THEORA of that
[04:51] <pitti> mjg59: I'll do some experiments then (from minimal boot, console, X, etc.)
[04:51] <mjg59> pitti: Ta
[04:51] <pitti> ok, so we drop that 'hal queries pmi capabilities' thing altogether?
[04:51] <Keybuk> jdub: do it then
[04:51] <pitti> Kinnison, mjg59 ^
[04:51] <mjg59> pitti: I think so
[04:52] <Kinnison> If you say so. I'll have to see if I can add UI to g-p-m then
[04:52] <pitti> Kinnison: what was the original problem?
[04:52] <mjg59> Kinnison: Why?
[04:52] <Mez> is the NEW queue actually being processed?
[04:52] <pitti> Mez: yes, it is
[04:52] <mjg59> Kinnison: Oh, just the dialogue box? Yeah.
[04:52] <mjg59> Hibernate doesn't need it, STR does
[04:53] <Mez> pitti: weird... I uploaded something to ubuntu unstead of REVU - didnt realise till I got the NEW reply ..
[04:53] <Mez> lol
[04:53] <Mez> but I still havent had an ACCEPT/REJECt
[04:53] <pitti> Kinnison: ok, so please tell me whatever you two end up discussing :)
[04:54] <jpatrick> Mez: NEW queue has been slow recently
[04:54] <Mez> a week slow ?
[04:54] <jpatrick> yep
[04:54] <jpatrick> nothing mine has turned up
[04:54] <jpatrick> and it took kblogger two weeks to appear
[04:55] <Kinnison> mjg59: bug 2764 I think
[04:55] <Ubugtu> malone bug 2764 in hal "Gnome-power-manager ignores /etc/default/acpi-support" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2764
[04:55] <mjg59> Kinnison: Right. I think it ought to ignore acpi-support.
[04:56] <mjg59> That only existed because we had no sane user-level mechanism for doing this
[04:57] <Kinnison> mjg59: right, so the policy belongs in g-p-p
[04:57] <Kinnison> pitti: drop the patch
[04:57] <Kinnison> pitti: In fact, I can drop the patch when I do the lcd change
[04:57] <pitti> Kinnison: alright, I'll drop it
[04:57] <mjg59> Kinnison: Sorry, we should possibly meet up some time to discuss this stuff...
[04:57] <Amaranth> can we ban john moser from the lists? he is getting annoying
[04:57] <Kinnison> pitti: are you doing other stuff on hal right now?
[04:57] <pitti> Kinnison: otherwise I'm done with my changes, so I can either upload and you work from that, or send you the source pacakge
[04:58] <Kinnison> pitti: You upload, I'll work from your stuff in a while
[04:58] <pitti> alright
[05:00] <pitti> Kinnison: uploaded; FYI, I also fixed debian/run-hald.sh to actually work; this makes change/compile/try turnarounds much faster
[05:00] <Kinnison> hehe
[05:03] <pitti> mjg59: hm, is /sys/power/state expected to work for STD on ppc? (since it's broken for STR)
[05:04] <pitti> mjg59: pbbcmd hibernate doesn't work, and I don't know another way to trigger STD
[05:05] <pitti> well, at least suspend works fine
[05:07] <pitti> mjg59: heh, interesting; the screen comes back (suspended without X), now it hangs after a kernel oops in usdev?ioctl()
[05:07] <pitti> s/?/_/
[05:14] <Kamion> Mez: yes, I haven't been doing it terribly quickly, sorry
[05:15] <Kamion> the fact that the archive is apparently Hotel California isn't helping either
[05:15] <Mez> Hotel Califoria?
[05:16] <Kamion> can't remove packages
[05:16] <Kamion> it pretends to but never does
[05:16] <Keybuk> hmm, why doesn't the bash manpage seem complete?
[05:17] <Kinnison> Kamion: just out of interest, what's your LPCONFIG?
[05:18] <Kamion> Kinnison: ftpmaster
[05:18] <Seveas> Kamion, I guess you might know this: who's "in charge" of the winfoss packages on the live cd? (aka: who to pester with bug reports)
[05:19] <Kamion> Seveas: Henrik (heno)
[05:19] <Kinnison> Kamion: right, that's okay (I have more than once almost done something to staging y'see :-)
[05:19] <Kamion> mdke_: fancy eyeballing my rewritten WikiLicensing/Email?
[05:21] <jsgotangco> ohh wiki licensing
[05:22] <Seveas> Kamion, gracias
[05:22] <pitti> mjg59: ok, summary: STD@powerpc works in text mode with almost all modules removed; oopses on resume with normal modules present; garbles screen when suspending under X or switching back to X after resuming
[05:28] <mjg59> pitti: Ok, that's a good start
[05:29] <pitti> yes, last time I tried it didn't even work in minimal boot
[05:29] <mjg59> pitti: Can you figure out which module breaks it?
[05:29] <Kinnison> mjg59: When would be good for you and I to discuss all this PM crud?
[05:29] <mjg59> Kinnison: Pretty much any time
[05:29] <pitti> mjg59: I think so, yes; after removing USB modules, I got a different oops, but I can bisect them until I hit the right one
[05:29] <mjg59> Thanks!
[05:30] <pitti> mjg59: I could also try to disable DRI in X; that helped back in hoary with STR
[05:30] <mjg59> pitti: Sure
[05:30] <Kinnison> mjg59: are you busy tonight?
[05:31] <mjg59> Kinnison: Might be post 10, but probably not before then
[05:31] <Kinnison> mjg59: I think face-2-face with a laptop to play with is a good way to get all this decided upon
[05:32] <Kinnison> mjg59: Would it be okay if I popped over this evening?
[05:32] <mjg59> Kinnison: Sure
[05:32] <Kinnison> cool. What sort of time would be good for you?
[05:33] <mjg59> 7ish?
[05:33] <Kinnison> sure
[05:33] <Kinnison> See you then
[05:43] <sladen> mjg59: what happened to "# Disable keys that may generate a hibernate event", and e02a (which is PrintScreen)
[05:43] <Keybuk> PrintScreen is hiding on my Pause key this week
[05:44] <mjg59> sladen: Should be fixed
[05:50] <mdke_> Kamion, looks fine to me: i'm happy to remove it from the CC agenda, if you are
[05:51] <Kamion> mdke_: the only remaining thing is that mako said he was going to talk to a lawyer about whether PD-self was ok
[05:54] <mdz> mvo: ping?
[05:55] <mvo> mdz: hello
[05:55] <pitti> moin mdz
[05:55] <mdz> mvo: I'm curious about getting the upgrade tool into breezy-updates
[05:56] <mvo> mdz: do you mean, getting it in now?
[05:56] <mdz> mvo: I mean, when?
[05:57] <mdz> mvo: is it at a point where you would be comfortable backporting it?
[05:58] <mvo> mdz: I think at prerelease time probably
[05:58] <Kamion> pitti: did you approve skim's main inclusion? it's in the approved bit of the queue, but you've never edited the page
[05:58] <mdke_> Kamion, ok
[05:59] <mvo> mdz: it's not that usefull before people can use it to upgrade to dapper. so maybe even closer to release time is enough
[05:59] <mdz> mvo: I think we should do it much earlier than that, and use it as the basis for testing the tool
[05:59] <mdz> it should work for upgrades to dapper even before dapper is released
[05:59] <pitti> Kamion: oops, I must have forgotten to save the page
[06:00] <mdz> mvo: if the tool is there and readily accessible in breezy-updates, we'll get more testing for it
[06:01] <mvo> mdz: right. we need to warn the users that it's not the final dapper yet
[06:01] <Kamion> dholbach: so is icon-naming-utils going back to universe?
[06:01] <mvo> mdz: but that isn't a problem :)
[06:01] <mdz> mvo: it shouldn't display the notification of a new release, but the user should be able to explicitly ask for an upgrade to the development release
[06:01] <mvo> mdz: we need to integrate it into the existing lp infrastructure I think
[06:02] <mdz> mvo: which lp infrastructure?
[06:02] <mvo> mdz: currently update-manager downloads the dist-upgrade tool from my people.ubuntu.com account
[06:03] <mdz> yes, that should move into the archive and onto the mirrors
[06:03] <mvo> mdz: we agreed at ubz that for the final version we want to use a archive.u.c dir
[06:03] <mdz> mvo: please write up a description of how it should work and send it to me & kiko
[06:03] <mvo> mdz: ok
[06:03] <mvo> mdz: a quick question about the i18n sprint, will it be a whole week?
[06:04] <mdz> mvo: that is an ongoing discussion, nothing is final
[06:04] <mvo> mdz: so it's too early to book a flight yet :) ?
[06:05] <mdz> yes
[06:05] <mvo> ok
[06:09] <Kamion> mdz: FYI I've added xubuntu and ubuntu-server to http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/anastacia.txt
[06:09] <Kamion> mdz: if you object to either, please let me know now before it all gets too confusing
[06:11] <Kamion> I'm using a separate cron.sync though, so xubuntu doesn't have Task headers in the archive yet (and thus no working netboot)
[06:13] <mdz> Kamion: I appreciate having them included, but I think it needs to say "xubuntu Desktop seed" rather than "Desktop seed' e.g. for sanity
[06:13] <Kamion> ug
[06:14] <Kamion> probably germinate
[06:15] <Kamion> will "xubuntu-dapper Desktop seed" be OK? easier to produce
[06:18] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[06:19] <janimo> Kamion, thanks I was just about to ask about promotions and CD builds
[06:19] <janimo> will the latter happend automatically?
[06:20] <janimo> s/d//
[06:20] <setuid> infinity: Do I want prefork or perchild? 
[06:27] <dholbach> Kamion: for this release, yes - sorry for not yelling earlier.
[06:29] <ogra> Keybuk, ping
[06:30] <dholbach> Kamion: thanks for the NEW love (supposing you looked at them.
[06:30] <Kamion> dholbach: no problem - back to universe it goes
[06:31] <Kamion> dholbach: yeah
[06:31] <Kamion> been working my way through it in spare moments
[06:32] <lamont> tepsipakki: the nfsv4 support was only ever uploaded to debian/experimental
[06:33] <ogra> mdz, i think i have the nbd swap solution, if you have time for a chat about my implementation idea i'd appreciate that 
[06:33] <setuid> infinity: Looks like apache2 has a dep for apache-ssl
[06:33] <setuid> Suggested packages:
[06:34] <setuid>   apache apache-ssl apache-perl apache2-doc php-pear modxslt-tools modxslt-doc db4.3-util libio-socket-ssl-perl
[06:34] <mdz> ogra: email would be best, but I have a few minutes now
[06:36] <pvanhoof> latest fglrx updates mismatch between the kernel fglrx module https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15/+bug/32332
[06:36] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32332 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15 xorg-driver-fglrx "On the current 686 kernel, the fglrx-xserver driver does not match the kernel one" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[06:39] <elmo> right, quick, someone give me a single important sync  that hasn't been done yet
[06:41] <Keybuk> ogra: 'sup?
[06:41] <siretart> elmo: aspectc++_0.99+1.0pre2-4
[06:42] <fabbione> elmo: apr and apr-utils from debian
[06:42] <LaserJock> that was a pretty loaded questions, can we do "rock-paper-scissors" over who gets the "important sync" ;-)
[06:42] <pitti> elmo: libpng sync and libpng3 removal (transition)
[06:43] <fabbione> elmo: they replace apr1.0 and apr-utils1.0 (all in universe
[06:43] <Kamion> pitti: removals don't seem to be working for me at the moment
[06:43] <elmo> Kamion: oh?
[06:43] <pitti> ouch, ok
[06:43] <fabbione> night everybody
[06:43] <siretart> elmo: this list: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.motu/457
[06:43] <pitti> well, syncing libpng should work anyway since it at least has a newer version then
[06:43] <siretart> sleep well fabbione 
[06:44] <pitti> bye fabbione 
[06:44] <Kamion> elmo: https://launchpad.net/products/soyuz/+bug/32314
[06:44] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32314 in soyuz "remove-package.py pretends to work and then does nothing" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[06:45] <dholbach> hahahaha: "Hotel California mode"
[06:46] <LaserJock> Kamion: did you have a chance to talk to elmo about moving ggobi from multiverse to universe?
[06:47] <Kamion> LaserJock: no
[06:47] <Kamion> LaserJock: I wanted you to do it rather than directing it through me
[06:47] <Kamion> sorry if that wasn't clear
[06:47] <LaserJock> Kamion: ohh, I see. I misunderstood.
[06:48] <LaserJock> Kamion: sorry.
[06:48] <Kamion> elmo: (context re ggobi was that I didn't know how we felt about licence clauses requiring commercial contributors to indemnify other contributors against lawsuits)
[06:48] <elmo> Kamion: you should use the rene port for what you were doing there anyways
[06:48] <Kamion> elmo: archive-cruft-check.py?
[06:48] <elmo> yah
[06:48] <Kamion> I was
[06:48] <elmo> ah, ok
[06:48] <Kamion> (once I figured out how to run it)
[06:49] <elmo> the bug title is confusing then
[06:49] <Kamion> only way I could get it to work was 'PYTHONPATH=/home/james/launchpad/scripts /srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current/scripts/ftpmaster-tools/archive-cruft-check.py'
[06:49] <Kamion> elmo: er, oh, archive-cruft-check can remove packages itself?
[06:49] <elmo> it does by default
[06:49] <Kamion> oh, I used -n because I was paranoid and wanted to check
[06:50] <Kamion> then cut-and-pasted to remove-package.py to see what happened
[06:50] <Kamion> (the answer being nothing, as you can see)
[06:51] <Kamion> elmo: archive-cruft-check.py doesn't seem to log to removals.txt?
[06:51] <Kamion> does it log anywhere else?
[06:52] <elmo> no, that'd be useful
[06:52] <Kamion> uh-huh
[06:52] <elmo> well
[06:52] <elmo> in theory you can see the publishing history of indivudal binary packages
[06:52] <Kamion> at least it prints output unlike change-override.py ;)
[06:52] <elmo> through the web ui
[06:52] <elmo> but yeah
[06:52] <elmo> the tools ports were done in a fairly busy two week period :P
[06:52] <Kamion> yeah, I know
[06:53] <mjg59> mdz: Around?
[06:53] <Kamion> elmo: do you want cced on bugs I file about them?
[06:53] <elmo> wtf
[06:53] <elmo> Kamion: they should probably be assigned to me
[06:54] <Kamion> ok
[06:54] <elmo> this is quite special, espresso-frontend-cloner has no datesuperseded entries
[06:54] <Kamion> did it manage to get half-removed or something?
[06:55] <mdz> mjg59: yes
[06:57] <j^> will AiGLX also make it into dapper?
[06:57] <elmo> kamion: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/amd64/espresso-frontend-cloner/0.99.10
[06:57] <elmo> it's in "PendingRemoval" ?
[06:58] <elmo> tho, I wish they hadn't removed the history stuff
[06:59] <Kamion> I utterly don't understand Soyuz's binary statuses
[06:59] <Kamion> they seem to be randomly "Removed" or "Superseded"
[07:00] <elmo> and it's not in the Packages files?
[07:00] <Kamion> though maybe that's source statuses, don't remember and basically don't understand :)
[07:00] <elmo> so I'm slightly confused
[07:00] <Kamion> it's in universe
[07:00] <elmo> oh, so I'm just stupid
[07:00] <Kamion> and madison-lite says it's there, so it must be in Packages
[07:00] <elmo> so it is
[07:01] <Kinnison>  dapper amd64 Release: Published 0.99.10 in component universe and section admin on 2006-02-15 00:02:21 GMT
[07:01] <Kinnison> the issue is there's some NULLs in the table
[07:01] <Kinnison> and they sort first
[07:01] <Kinnison> always
[07:01] <Kinnison> go SQL
[07:02] <elmo> NULLs in which column?
[07:02] <Kinnison> not sure
[07:02] <Kinnison> whatever the history is sorting by on the page
[07:02] <elmo> there's a history?
[07:02] <Kinnison> knock the version off the end of the url
[07:03] <elmo> rocking UI ;-)
[07:03] <Kamion> "Removed" then "PendingRemoval"
[07:03] <Kamion> cool
[07:03] <Kamion> "it's gone" / "oh shit, no it's not, er, maybe, I'm so confused"
[07:04] <Kinnison> we ought to sort that table by the datecreated always
[07:04] <Kinnison> but we try to do some magic
[07:04] <Kinnison> possibly we ought to s
[07:04] <Kinnison> ort by status and then datecreated
[07:04] <Kinnison> rather than any oh
[07:04] <Kinnison> other column
[07:06] <elmo> Nominated Independent Architecture:
[07:06] <elmo> i386
[07:06] <elmo> that info so doesn't need to be displayed
[07:07] <robertj> Kennison: is this Postgres?
[07:08] <robertj> MySQL has ORDER BY FIELD(COLUMN, Z, B, C)
[07:08] <Kamion> mm, let's switch all of Launchpad to MySQL, that's a good idea
[07:09] <robertj> Kamion: i'm not saying that, I'm just saying maybe Postgres does as well
[07:09] <robertj> but I've never used it
[07:09] <Kamion> heh
[07:12] <elmo> /usr/sbin/laptop-detect: line 6: test: : integer expression expected
[07:14] <pitti> mjg59: bah, this is annoying; as soon as I start X, resuming kills my keyboard, and it's impossible to pinpoint the faulty module since the behavior isn't deterministic
[07:14] <mjg59> pitti: Haha.
[07:16] <Kamion> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/anastacia.txt has flavour names alongside the seeds now
[07:18] <mdz> Kamion: beautiful
[07:19] <Kinnison> mjg59: huzzah, I have one possible solution to the suspend/hibernate policy thing ready for our meeting
[07:19] <Kinnison> mjg59: I shall bring the laptop with
[07:19] <janimo> Kamion, I notice the old binary names for the xfce libs are there too. (libxfce4mcs-client-2, libxfce4mcs-manager-2, libxfce4util-1)
[07:19] <janimo> when removals are possible maybe they should go from the archive
[07:20] <mjg59> Kinnison: Cool
[07:20] <janimo> libxfcegui4-3 too
[07:20] <Kamion> janimo: yes, they appear in the archive cruft checker's output so no need to mention them individually, thanks
[07:21] <ogra> hmm, i wonder why our ubuntu server depends on gnome1 :)
[07:21] <Kamion> janimo: however they're listed for promotion to main because you've forgotten to rebuild something against the new libraries
[07:21] <janimo> Kamion, hmm I wonder what
[07:22] <janimo> I'll try to find out
[07:22] <Kamion> janimo: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/xubuntu-dapper/ should help
[07:22] <janimo> thanks
[07:25] <Kamion> hmm, or not
[07:27] <Kinnison> mjg59: heading out
[07:28] <janimo> hmm, is that based an older version of the xubuntu seeds? xfce4-battery-plugin and xfce4-goodies have been taken out for a while
[07:28] <janimo> same for systray, iconbox
[07:29] <janimo> and I have deleted them from the maininclusion wiki page last week
[07:30] <Kamion> seems very unlikely that it would have been based on an older version - but I think something else might have been confused, and I'm rerunning update-germinate at the moment to see
[07:30] <Kamion> the cron job runs every hour on the same machine as I mirror your seeds to
[07:34] <ogra> jinty, what about schooltool .... feature freeze is in two days ...
[07:35] <jinty> ogra: I have the release tarballs, but have to fix a bug in zope before I can build those with confidence
[07:36] <ogra> phew ...
[07:42] <mdz> Kamion,JaneW,jdub,mjg59,Keybuk: if any of you actually have the admin password for ubuntu-devel-announce, please send to me
[07:43] <dholbach> does anybody have an opinion on  bug 32341 ?
[07:43] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32341 in gaim "Gaim legal issues" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32341
[07:46] <mjg59> mdz: Afraid not
[07:46] <mjg59> Oh, hang on
[07:47] <KurtKraut> I need to report an error in Flight4. When I ask to the LIVECD to check its integrity, there is a error when it prompts the word 'mismatch'. It is scrambled with other words. Please check these pictures: www.kurtkraut.net/ubuntu/flight4/
[07:47] <KurtKraut> Anyone could give me the name of that package so I can report this problem ?
[07:47] <Pygi> wb seb and Jane
[07:51] <giftnudel> dholbach, creating a jabber.ubuntu.com server and promoting jabber is the best option, then the issue will solve itself in time ...
[07:52] <dholbach> giftnudel: I personally have no problem with that, but a lot of other people will, so I'd love to know if it's really the way the bug report says
[07:52] <dholbach> MS/Yahoo/AOL didn't decide that yesterday, did they? :)
[07:52] <giftnudel> dholbach, oh well, it really is this way
[07:53] <giftnudel> dholbach, a couple of jabber servers shut down there msn transports because of this
[07:53] <dholbach> yeah read it already
[07:53] <giftnudel> i don't know, something must have happened
[07:57] <Burgwork> giftnudel, why is this a big issue right now? those TOSes have been in place for a long time
[07:59] <mdz> mjg59: Keybuk had it
[07:59] <LaserJock> gaim does IRC as well doesn't it. So we would be left with jabber and IRC?
[08:00] <Burgwork> IMO, there is no reason to move gaim to multiverse
[08:00] <Burgwork> we are not actually breaking any TOS by actually having it installed
[08:00] <Pygi> what happened to gaim if I am ask?
[08:00] <Burgwork> Pygi, nothing yet
[08:01] <Pygi> and what is about to happen?
[08:01] <Burgwork> Pygi, there is some concern about hte legality of gaim connecting to yahoo/aim/msn
[08:01] <LaserJock> malone bug 32341
[08:01] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32341 in gaim "Gaim legal issues" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32341
[08:01] <Burgwork> plus loosing the ability to connect to those services is a major major regression
[08:02] <giftnudel> Burgwork, that is a nice point of view: "we are not actually breaking any TOS by actually having it installed"
[08:02] <LaserJock> Burgwork: but if *nobody* can legally use those protocols in gaim isn't that an issue?
[08:02] <Burgwork> what users do on their machines cannot be our concern
[08:03] <Burgwork> if we were responsible for them breakign the law, then the world would be a very different place
[08:03] <LaserJock> but if there is no possible way for it to be legal then it seems a bit odd to me
[08:03] <giftnudel> here is a nice blog if you don't know it; http://blogs.openaether.org/?p=146
[08:03] <Pygi> huh, isn't actually AIM partly interoperable with oscar/libicq?
[08:03] <Burgwork> can you imagine, suing MS because Windows allows you to install Kazaa on it
[08:03] <pitti> mdz: I would like to upgrade postgresql-common to the current version (from 39 to 43); it's only bug fixes and some small improvements, and test suite passes; do you consider this as a new upstream version?
[08:04] <LaserJock> but you can use Kazaa for legal purposes right?
[08:04] <ptlo> Pygi: *any* client not developed by / explicitly authorized by msn/yahoo/aol is banned by these statements
[08:04] <LaserJock> so maybe we need to get gaim authorized?
[08:04] <Burgwork> I would welcome them attempting to shutdown us for using gaim
[08:04] <Burgwork> antitrust laws are great things
[08:05] <Pygi> ptlo: well, that was my point...that would mean that we would have to remove part of oscar/libicq which is also part of aim
[08:06] <Burgwork> I think we should simply ignore the issue until such time as it actually hurts us, because there is no evidence that there is any danger
[08:06] <Burgwork> and regardless, we are still not legally at fault for anything
[08:06] <ptlo> well, if nobody mentiones the fact of installing the application on the system, ubuntu can't be to blame if the user actually *uses* these, so i'd say go with the inclusion in main (gajim + gaim/universe is also a nice solution), but IANAL
[08:07] <giftnudel> Burgwork, I think you are right
[08:07] <Pygi> ptlo: yes, but we have to understand that ubuntu is taking causious steps in cases like this...
[08:07] <Burgwork> I am going to reject that bug, due to the fact that it is not an Ubuntu issue
[08:07] <Pygi> if we would follow your theory, we could install mp3 codecs by default and let the users be responsible for using it?
[08:08] <ptlo> Pygi: *nod*, well that's why the bug was filed in in the first place. people are cautious, and then other people think about the problem and decide the best course of action
[08:08] <Burgwork> Pygi, that is different
[08:08] <ptlo> Pygi: no. the mp3 codecs are illegal for distribution also (in the fluendo mp3 case, patented codec is also illegal to use in a system which uses gpl, also).
[08:09] <Burgwork> there we are actually breaking US law
[08:09] <ptlo> Pygi: this is just about the terms of some service 
[08:09] <ptlo> (and it's what user does, not the distributions)
[08:09] <Pygi> yes, but in this case we are breaking the TOS
[08:09] <giftnudel> no, the user is
[08:09] <giftnudel> and that's the difference
[08:09] <ptlo> Pygi: no, the user is, by using it.
[08:09] <Pygi> ah
[08:09] <LaserJock> I just think it kinda dumb to ship something that *nobody* can use legally. but that's just my $0.02 and IANAL ;-)
[08:10] <ptlo> and to be frank, the wors possible thing you get for breaking a TOS is ban from the service. it's not strictly *illegal*
[08:10] <giftnudel> LaserJock, you can use it for jabber and irc
[08:10] <LaserJock> giftnudel: then we should ship that
[08:10] <Pygi> if you want to be legal, and still provide something capable of connecting... I say go with jabber client which has interprocess ability
[08:10] <LaserJock> giftnudel: I have no problem with shipping gaim with only jabber and IRC.
[08:10] <ptlo> LaserJock: well, we know the users *will* use it no matter what. stripping eg. icq from gaim leaves users with no icq option, so they must install additional client by themselves and after that they'll break the law again
[08:10] <Pygi> that doesn't use none of the protocols of aol/msn/whateva
[08:11] <ptlo> s/users/some users/
[08:11] <giftnudel> LaserJock, yes, but there is no legal point to do so, but users will be annoyed
[08:11] <LaserJock> but this is similar to the mp3 problem. Are we really solving the problem by just ignoring it?
[08:12] <LaserJock> I like that Ubuntu doesn't have mp3 support out of the box
[08:12] <giftnudel> for the mp3 problem, there is a legal point - it's illegal
[08:12] <giftnudel> in the other one, you can get banned from the service -so what?
[08:12] <Pygi> laser: yes, you like but Joe Average doesn't
[08:12] <Burgwork> LaserJock, we can't do anything about it and we (the distro) are not breaking the law
[08:12] <LaserJock> but we won't change Joe Avereage if we keep ignoring problems
[08:13] <ptlo> LaserJock: there are ways of dealing with mp3. you could use fluendo's mp3 codec, or just recode your whole damn collection if you wish. for services like icq, you're either in or out. and disabling the way in shuts out a lot of users in places where icq is almost exclusively used (as it is in croatia, for example, which is why i'm arguing)
[08:13] <LaserJock> I can see if TOS != legality then you have a point
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, yes, but neither are we going to make Joe Average happy by not having these things available
[08:13] <Burgwork> jdub has a great story about demonstrating gaim to a few 13 year old girls
[08:13] <ptlo> that's the same effect as removing samba or disabling .doc file support for ooffice
[08:14] <LaserJock> I use .ogg and jabber and IRC because of these issues but I wouldn't have been aware of a problem if at some point I hadn't said "WTF, why can't I play my music?"
[08:14] <giftnudel> well, I try to convert my friends to jabber, but it doesn't really work
[08:15] <Pygi> ptlo: well, what's the issue with jabber interprocessing abilites? that way you can talk with icq people, you are not breaking law, using their protocol, etc
[08:15] <Burgwork> LaserJock, better to offer something like .Ubuntu and get them to sign up to Jabber because it has better service, not because they are forced to
[08:15] <giftnudel> Pygi, funny enough - the one in charge of the server is responsible
[08:15] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I agree
[08:16] <Pygi> gift: well, once using that we don't actually have to login to their network, so...
[08:16] <ptlo> Pygi: when jabber/gtalk<->icq/aim/msn bridge gets up and officially blessed, i'll be the first one to ditch the proprietary protocol plugins out of my box. they're reverse engineering and incomplete anyways
[08:16] <giftnudel> yes, of course
[08:16] <mdz> pitti: whether it's considered upstream or not is irrelevant if you are upstream ;-)
[08:17] <mdz> pitti: so long as the changes are consistent with the Dapper release cycle, it's OK
[08:17] <LaserJock> I guess I just find it irritating that I could be breaking a TOS just by using a defualt Ubuntu package. I guess that could be a common problem though.
[08:17] <Pygi> ptlo: yes, it's kinda partly implemented now
[08:17] <Pygi> ptlo: but *maybe* we could push it along...
[08:19] <ptlo> LaserJock: probably, but at least the user doesn't break it "by default". ie, (s)he has to configure gaim to access these servers in the first place. adding a note "by using these you're breaking your terms of service, beware" might be informative, but i'm not sure how easy it is to hack gaim to do it
[08:19] <Pygi> ptlo: that shoudl
[08:19] <giftnudel> ptlo, actually, once you create an account you have agreed to the terms
[08:19] <giftnudel> so they "should" know what they can and can not do
[08:20] <ptlo> giftnudel: of course. this would just be a reminder to the gaim users
[08:20] <giftnudel> and if they deliberately try to violate the tos
[08:20] <giftnudel> hmm
[08:21] <Pygi> and let's be honest...most of users will...
[08:21] <pitti> mdz: yes, I think so; thanks
[08:21] <ptlo> anyways, i'm off, i trust the wise ubuntu overlords will at least put some icq client in the universe/multiverse so i won't have to compile it for myself ;-) cya
[08:22] <Pygi> anyone know what's the current status of jabber/gtalk<->icq/aim/msn bridge implementation?
[08:22] <LaserJock> Pygi: what do you mean by status?
[08:22] <LaserJock> I think people use it.
[08:23] <Pygi> well, what's the stability/level of implementation of that bridge?
[08:23] <Pygi> can it be usable in real time enviroment?
[08:24] <LaserJock> that I don't know. I've never used icq/aim/msn and don't have an account for any of those. I know somebody that does use jabber for that but I don't know how well it works for them.
[08:24] <Pygi> because if that's working decently, that would solve the entire *issue*
[08:24] <Pygi> we are bypassing all of their server, protocols, etc
[08:25] <LaserJock> Pygi: but are you violating the TOS by using jabber?
[08:25] <Pygi> and we are not violating TOS if we are talking with people from other protocols
[08:25] <Pygi> laser: why would I violate TOS by using jabber? 
[08:25] <giftnudel> LaserJock, no, the server admin is
[08:26] <LaserJock> giftnudel: that's what I thought.
[08:26] <slomo_> giftnudel: and what happens when the server admin never agreed to the TOS?
[08:26] <Pygi> possibly we could hack up on jabber so it uses p2p for intercommunication?
[08:27] <LaserJock> well, whatever. I try to not violate laws or TOS but I realize that most people probably woudn't care.
[08:27] <Pygi> slomo: well, he didn't actually agreed...he doesn't have to...
[08:27] <LaserJock> slomo_: I would imagine that they agree by using it
[08:27] <giftnudel> slomo_, well then he can not enable the transport?
[08:28] <slomo_> giftnudel: the server admin can run the transport without ever seeing the TOS... only the user is the one agreeing to the TOS
[08:28] <Pygi> any way that we could hack up on jabber so we use p2p for transporting purpose?
[08:28] <giftnudel> slomo_, I can imagine that by using the service (as connecting) you have to agree to the terms
[08:29] <LaserJock> slomo_: hmm, I would think that use of the protocol would be a part of the TOS but maybe it is just the client.
[08:29] <Pygi> no, it's the protocol as well, read up
[08:29] <Pygi> they only do *authorized protocols*
[08:55] <Kamion> Community Council meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in five minutes
[09:04] <xxenon> are nvidia drivers currently broken in flight 4 ?
[09:04] <Kyral> I remember the Bot Attacks (in reference to #ubuntu-meeting). It was quite cool to see lilo kicking ass :D
[09:18] <dieman> lamont: yay!
[09:18] <dieman> lamont: you closed 8409, my 'too smart' users will stop saying nfs is broken.
[09:20] <lamont> dieman: just for you dude.  just for you. 
[09:20] <lamont> now they'll have to find something else to say is broken
[09:21] <Kamion> mdz: what's your feeling on moving specs off to a separate wiki again? http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs, discussion in #ubuntu-meeting now
[09:41] <dieman> lamont: im just hoping 2.6.15 is a bit more clean with acting as a nfs client, haven't run it at work yet...
[09:41] <dieman> lamont: the hoary 2.6.10 kernel pukes into stale handle mode from time to time
[09:41] <dieman> but not reproducable enough to figure out why
[09:41] <lamont> dieman: ouch
[09:42] <dieman> lamont: plus autofs with symlinks pointing into autofs mounts sometimes gets weird.
[09:42] <dieman> if they are still there with 2.6.15, i'll try and come up with an actual reproducable case for it
[09:42] <lamont> that'll help
[09:42] <dieman> sometimes the mount will be there and mounted (nfs) but it can't stat anything
[09:43] <dieman> but it can list the directory
[09:43] <lamont> although a patch would be even better. :-)
[09:43] <dieman> but any attempt at statting gives an i/o error
[09:43] <dieman> go back to the mount through the actual autofs mount, and sometimes it decides to start working again for both ways, through the symlink and through the autofs mount
[09:59] <pitti_> re
[10:07] <lifeless> seb128: where do I get evolution debug symbols ?
[10:07] <dholbach> seb128: for Dapper?
[10:08] <seb128> DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="noopt nostrip"? :)
[10:08] <dholbach> seb128: oops :)
[10:08] <lifeless> seb128: aww, baby jesus is crying
[10:08] <dholbach> lifeless: for Breezy, seb128 put them up on p.u.c
[10:08] <lifeless> seb128: so I've got a evo hang in dapper
[10:08] <lifeless> seb128: and I'd like to give you as useful a report as possible.
[10:09] <seb128> lifeless: put the non-debug backtrace on pastebin.com
[10:09] <seb128> might be enough to spot a dup
[10:09] <lifeless> seb128: ok
[10:09] <seb128> anyway we spoke about debug during distro sprint
[10:09] <seb128> and we are going to make -dbg packages for stuff like evolution
[10:09] <lifeless> thank you!
[10:09] <seb128> that's on my list for that week or next week
[10:10] <lifeless> I do that for all my packages that can support them, its -so- useful.
[10:10] <lifeless> http://pastebin.com/565662
[10:10] <sivang> lifeless: building evo with debug symbols takes _Ages_ 
[10:10] <sivang> :)
[10:10] <seb128> it doesn't take longer
[10:10] <lifeless> sivang: it should not
[10:10] <seb128> it's faster in fact
[10:11] <seb128> we always build with debug
[10:11] <lifeless> sivang: its a 'build and strip to files rather than strip to /dev/null'
[10:11] <seb128> and we strip usually
[10:11] <seb128> so it should be a strip faster
[10:11] <lifeless> seb128: nah, strip to file isn't faster, its ~ the same.
[10:11] <seb128> right, we do move the debug so might be the same
[10:11] <lifeless> seb128: anyway, does that look duplike to you ?
[10:11] <seb128> yep
[10:12] <seb128> I got that one sometime too
[10:12] <lifeless> ok.
[10:12] <seb128> and not when I've a debug package installed grrr
[10:12] <lifeless> and its reported somewhere already so I should just kick evo in the nuts ?
[10:12] <seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331317 upstream
[10:12] <Ubugtu> gnome2 bug 331317 in Mailer "Hang when reading a message" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[10:12] <lifeless> thanks
[10:12] <seb128> hum
[10:13] <seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317790
[10:13] <Ubugtu> gnome2 bug 317790 in Mailer "Evolution is not responding" [Major,Resolved: fixed]  
[10:13] <seb128> they closed that one, but they are not quite true, it's not fixed
[10:13] <lifeless> heh
[10:13] <seb128> I'll comment on ross bug saying so rather
[10:16] <sivang> lifeless: don't think I've understood how you make nostrip faster :) 
[10:22] <lifeless> sivang: package builds normally build debug symbols and then strip them.
[10:23] <lifeless> sivang: so nostrip is faster than a normal package build, but building -dbg packages is not slower than a normal package build.
[10:27] <Kamion> rah, demoting packages to universe due to germinate fixes ++
[10:29] <Kamion> ogra: xscreensaver-data-extra xscreensaver-gl-extra demoted to universe for now, let me know if you want them back
[10:29] <ogra> Kamion, as i said before, i dont really care ...
[10:30] <ogra> might be a question for sabdfl if he wants them in supported or not ... since i care for the source in main, i'll care for the rest anyway 
[10:30] <sivang> lifeless: ah, so what I was seeing was probably just slow build due to a huge amount of dependencies and nostrip building of them as well :)
[10:41] <sistpoty> is there s.th. wrong with a.u.c? I can't install python2.4-dev due to size mismatch
[10:41] <pitti> *grumble* Malone email interface doesn't work *grumble*
[10:58] <dholbach> ogra: another new dia release
[11:01] <trappist> pitti: bug 
[11:01] <pitti> trappist: ENOVERB
[11:01] <trappist> oops. 31893 was suggested to me by crimsun.  I'd appreciate it if you could have another look at it.
[11:02] <pitti> (or is that meant as a verb?) :)
[11:02] <trappist> spoda be a noun :)
[11:02] <pitti> bug 31893
[11:02] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31893 in alsa-utils "Multiple sound cards difficult to manage with asoundconf" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/31893
[11:03] <pitti> trappist: oh, I see; I still don't think that asoundconf is an appropriate end user tool
[11:04] <pitti> trappist: however, I can apply the patch nevertheless if it helps you
[11:04] <trappist> I think I agree with you, but alsaconf is pretty universally hated and I think we need *something*.
[11:04] <trappist> it doesn't help me personally now that I know the names of my sound cards.  but I doubt I'm the only non-gnome-user with multiple sound cards.
[11:05] <pitti> trappist: I'll add another task to the bug that asks for a KDE equivalent; can't hurt
[11:06] <trappist> nope, can't hurt.  except someone will say there is a kde equivalent without having paid attention to the behavior of kde's sound configurator, which either turns off or configures arts and nothing else.
[11:07] <pitti> trappist: ok, thanks for the feedback, and sorry for the premature closing
[11:08] <trappist> no harm no foul, thanks for lettin me cry on your shoulder
[11:08] <pitti> :)
[11:18] <BenC> is there a mirror of cdimage.u.c?
[11:19] <seb128> BenC: cf Kamion's announcement of flight CDs by example
[11:19] <seb128>   Europe:
[11:19] <seb128>     http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/dapper/flight-4/ (Ubuntu)
[11:19] <BenC> ah, thanks
[11:19] <seb128> np
[11:20] <BenC> much faster
[11:21] <trappist> pitti: it occurs to me that some people don't use gnome *or* kde and that we really should have a cli solution for this.
[11:22] <Panzerboy> hey all
[11:22] <seb128> GetRideOfTheDesktop (tm)
[11:22] <Panzerboy> i've just updated to dapper and all i can say is: WOW !
[11:22] <Panzerboy> congrats guys
[11:22] <seb128> thank you :)
[11:22] <Panzerboy> and thanks for all the hard work
[11:31] <marcin`> trappist: you are not the only non-gnome-user with multiple sound cards it's plenty of them
[11:32] <marcin`> trappist: I use ratpoison and got two sound cards - one integrated on mobo and another is sb live
[11:32] <marcin`> trappist: so I agree with you
[11:32] <marcin`> anyway hello #ubuntu-devel
[11:32] <marcin`> got a question
[11:32] <trappist> marcin`: I'm glad to hear from you then
[11:33] <HrdwrBoB> trappist: you don't have to use 'gnome'
[11:33] <HrdwrBoB> to be able to run gnome-fix-something-ladeda
[11:33] <marcin`> could someone tell me if are there any plans to implement conditional dependencies in dpkg?
[11:35] <marcin`> anyone?
[11:38] <dholbach> good night guys
[11:40] <trappist> HrdwrBoB: at first glance gnome-sound-properties does look handy