=== robotgeek goes to tidy up wiki page for meeting tommorow [12:07] Burgwork: ping [12:13] robotgeek, pong [12:13] Burgwork: would you be willing to cheer for me in the meeting tommorow? === robotgeek is applying for membership, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan [12:15] robotgeek, what time is it? [12:15] 20.00 utc, 21'st [12:17] robotgeek, yes I can, as that is noon here === ealden [n=ealden@203.76.212.217] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:17] Burgwork: cool, thanks! [12:18] robotgeek, can you ping me when the meeting starts? [12:18] Burgwork: sure, will do :) === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@193.203.134.212] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jerome@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seg-Fault [n=Seg-Faul@CPE0050f2cf3b77-CM0011e6ee0a42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === OHPhoneGuy [n=ian@oh-71-48-68-205.dhcp.sprint-hsd.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=bburger@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:35] hi Madpilot [03:36] hi LaserJock === OHPhoneGuy is now known as FreakinNuts === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seg-Fault [n=Seg-Faul@CPE0050f2cf3b77-CM0011e6ee0a42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-48-104.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan_ [n=bhuvan@b14.gw.maa.collab.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan_ is now known as bhuvan === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-146-44.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:50] Madpilot: ping [06:01] robotgeek: hi [06:02] Madpilot: just reminding, CC meeting tommorow :) [06:02] yeah 2000Z - I'm in a RL meeting at exactly the same time :( [06:02] RL? [06:03] real life [06:03] ah.. [06:03] no problems :) [06:03] Burg work is cheering [06:03] yeah, I wanted to be there - my name is up for op on #ubuntu, for my sins [06:03] :P [06:05] so is Seveas, nalioth [06:05] and anyone else from #ubuntu-doc :) [06:06] good luck with membership, anyway - I'll be talking w/ seveas later, and I'll put a word in for you - I'm sure mdke already has === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:06] thanks Madpilot [06:12] robotgeek: hmm, I think I might have a meeting 2000-2100 but it might be short. I'll try to drop in on the CC meeting if I can [06:12] thanks LaserJock [06:14] LaserJock: i'll probably ping you when the time comes :) [06:21] robotgeek: what is the URL for your wiki page? [06:22] LaserJock: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan [06:25] robotgeek: best wishes! [06:25] thanks bhuvan [06:25] robotgeek: i prefer to include links to your patches in your wiki page [06:25] bhuvan: nice idea! [06:25] robotgeek: thus, the approver may be more comfortable [06:25] you may get the links from ubuntudoc-commits mailing lists [06:26] yes, i am subscribed :) === EricNeon [n=eric@218.80.149.96] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek hunts [06:26] hi [06:27] hi EricNeon [06:27] hi EricNeon [06:27] :) [06:29] I am writing a mail to Mark to introduce the Ubuntu-cn team [06:30] cn? [06:30] we will speed up for dapper release [06:30] CN, Ubuntu China [06:31] last week ,we have a meeting with mark and yaste and hande [06:31] cool - Mark was just in China, I think [06:33] we talk about community construction and dapper release party [06:34] they ask me mail a plan to him [06:35] bhuvan: more work for me :) === jsgotangco [n=jerome@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jerome@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@host81-129-228-69.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-144-83.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:58] bhuvan: thanks, done [06:58] robotgeek: ok === jsgotangco [n=jerome@210.4.38.43] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:04] robotgeek: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-February/001913.html [07:05] bhuvan: hmm, my email client missed that :) [07:05] thanks :) === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan is upgrading to dapper [07:29] lol, I'm already thinking about dapper+1 [07:29] bhuvan: braver than I am :P [07:30] heh, i am on dapper and lovin it [07:30] I've been on dapper since about Oct. [07:30] robotgeek, great! [07:30] bhuvan: my airport extreme works, i just moved my kmail to dapper too. === robotgeek is reminded of another wiki page he contributed to, lol [07:31] so how do you guys write for dapper? Do you have dapper installed on a spare box or something? [07:32] LaserJock_away: yeah, i just use dapper [07:32] LaserJock_away: most of the apps I've written stuff for aren't changing much for Dapper, from what I've heard [07:32] lots of ppl use qemu/whatever [07:32] Is there a Flight4 LiveCD? [07:32] yeah [07:33] it should have espresso on it so you can install from the liveCD === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot starts torrent of the Flight4 LiveCD [07:36] hmm, I might try it out too. I haven't used any of the Flight .isos [07:37] my hibernate is borked [07:37] jsgotangco: uggh [07:37] yes === robotgeek is confused with hibernate vs sleep [07:37] the joys of laptop testing [07:38] robotgeek, sleep resides in memory [07:38] hibernate goes to disk [07:38] ah, i don't think i've ever hibernated [07:39] macs don't hibernate, lol [07:41] I haven't been bold enough to try Ubuntu on my laptop. Dapper on a desktop no problem, but laptops just scare me ;-) [07:41] robotgeek: they don't, my iMac does I think [07:42] LaserJock_away: my power button doesn't work, closing the lid sleeps well, however === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:51] morning === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-142-85.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:57] mdke_: you going to make the CC meeting? [08:58] maybe, maybe not [08:59] robotgeek is going for membership, is all === ompaul [n=ompaul@193.203.134.212] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:01] yeah, saw it in the scrollback [09:01] hmmm CC would be 4am on my side :/ [09:01] his membership is so obviously a cinch that our presence is unnecessary, but I will leave a message if I can't get there [09:03] Madpilot, couple of TODOs on the desktopguide I thought of recently [09:03] i added a blank section for how to use the menu editor [09:04] that way we can point to that, instead of having those ugly sections about adding a desktop file in /usr/share/applications [09:04] those are truly awful [09:06] true - I'm torrenting the Flight4 LiveCD right now, so I'll play with it tomorrow and write some of that [09:06] rocking [09:07] the other thing was maybe we could include something on apt-get in the add-applications section [09:07] does the server-guide cover apt-get? Could we link to their docs? [09:10] not easily i don't think [09:10] the problem is that the guide will be both on the system and on the internet, the links might break [09:10] we could use their code though [09:10] if its friendly enough [09:17] stuff written for server admins might be a bit much for newbies to the CLI... === mpt__ [n=mpt@222-154-113-246.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:18] I'll apply the same test to it I did to vim: If I understand it, I'll write about it. If I don't, forget it. :P [09:23] :) [09:24] -> work === Kamping_At_Hut [n=kgoetz@ppp100-144.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:00] is there anything on printer sharing in ubuntu breezy in the help? the wiki and help.ubuntu dont seem to have anything [10:00] Kamping_At_Hut: there are wiki articles on XP->Ubuntu and Ubuntu->XP printer sharing [10:01] Madpilot: im after ubuntu -> debian sharing, same deal? [10:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWinXP [10:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WindowsXPPrinter [10:01] no idea, but that should be easier than win->Linux [10:02] i dont think it is ;) because of the cups mangling in ubuntu [10:02] hmm, a quick wiki search only turns up specs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrinterSharing [10:02] not a good sign [10:03] mm. sounds like your finding the same stuff as me :/ [10:04] nothing on break-my-ubuntu either (aka ubuntuguide) [10:05] heh [10:06] im sure there was a few lines of the config file you change and you could do sharing :/ *cant rememeber where he saw it * === Kamping_At_Hut goes to talk to big brother (aka google) [10:06] check the other "we're too cool for the official wiki" wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/BreezyCust [10:06] ok good idea [10:07] actually, some of the stuff there is pretty good - the Breezy eyecandy section, for example [10:08] it may be good stuff, its just a pity it cant be with other good stuff : [10:08] :| (damn keyboard with | in the wrong spot) [10:10] doesn't seem to be anything at gwos, either [10:12] im going to try this http://occy.net/printing [10:12] some printing help would be useful [10:13] mdke_: can you start an email of "things it would be cool to get into the docs before Dapper string freeze"? [10:13] how long is it utnill freeze? a month? [10:13] *untill [10:13] about that [10:13] Madpilot, alright [10:14] i can probably put my hand up for something, just depends on time restraints [10:18] Kamping_At_Hut: that printing url - "occy" rings faint bells - someone who shows up on #ubuntu or #ubuntu-offtopic sometimes, I think [10:21] woot. it works [10:21] *hugs cups, even ubuntus version* [10:22] Madpilot: hm. ill check my logs then and see if it comes up [10:27] Madpilot: yeh, he/she/it seems to show up a bit (lots of log entries) === ompaul [n=ompaul@193.203.134.212] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:27] brb. finding network calbe :/ === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:48] UBUNTU DOCUMENT STORAGE FACILITY [10:48] INTRUDERS WILL BE PROSECUTED [10:48] lol [10:48] seriously... [10:49] There's way too much meta-ness in Ubuntu documentation generally [10:49] Like, using the word "documentation" [10:49] and the word "wiki" [10:49] and the word "user" [10:50] and "document" and "storage" and "facility" [10:50] meta? [10:50] meta-ness? [10:50] meta-ness, i.e. writing about the writing rather than writing about the topic [10:50] ah, OK [10:51] *blank look* [10:51] see also our ongoing efforts to get our wiki's UserDocumentation page into some sort of usable shape :P [10:51] Kamping_At_Hut, a simple example, there's a wiki page called "UserDocumentation" [10:52] not "HelpUsingUbuntu" or "UbuntuSupport" or something like that, but "UserDocumentation" [10:53] mm. think i get it [10:53] as opposed to too much of the rest of the wiki, which is DeveloperDocumentation or ProjectDocumentation or some such... [10:53] Madpilot, yeah, separate wikis will help there [10:54] but it could still have been called "HelpUsingUbuntu" from the beginning [10:54] we are all experts in the end [10:56] we can change the name when we migrate to the new server - there'll be lots of redirects going in anyway [10:56] well, on a separate help site, it can be called "/" :-) [10:57] yeah, that too :P [10:58] giving the main page a name does make it easier to link back to, though [10:59] Wikipedia uses Main_Page [10:59] to its eternal shame [11:00] hmm, I suppose that's a feature request for Moin [11:00] it's more descriptive than "Index", I guess [11:02] That the biggest text on is "Main Page" is stupid [11:02] It should be "Wikipedia" [11:02] bug in MediaWiki, I guess [11:03] Same goes for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ and "FrontPage" -- it's not a wiki about using Microsoft Web authoring tools! [11:03] bug in all wiki apps, then :P [11:03] http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ has it right === ealden [n=ealden@ipdial-166-77.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === imtheface [n=imthefac@202.73.110.58] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:04] ah, they don't repeat the title as a heading on any page [11:04] nice - so it *is* possible to seperate page name from title [11:05] actually, they do, kind of, but it's up in the grey header so it's less obvious === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@222-154-113-246.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #ubuntu-doc ["http://mpt.net.nz/"] === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kamping_At_Hut [n=kgoetz@ppp100-144.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka is now known as manicka_sleep === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-168.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka_sleep is now known as manicka === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-168.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka is now known as manicka_sleep === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [n=ealden@203.76.212.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:27] anyone here have privs to make a wiki page immutable? === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-168.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:28] mgalvin, no one does at all, here or not [04:29] mdke_: ah ok, thanks [04:30] just wondering b/c people keep ranting and/or making large modifications to DapperFlight4, i was looking for a way to prevent people from ranting on that page and such [04:30] not a big deal [04:30] hmm [04:30] how ugly does the block render in yelp? [04:32] mgalvin, publish it on a web site rather than a wiki? [04:33] jsgotangco, it's fine, similar to orderedlist [04:33] okay === jsgotangco doing some finishing touches to gai before it gets evicted to svn [04:33] s/to/from === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:47] mdke_: that is a possibility [04:51] heh that didn't look bad at all thanks === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:16] jjesse: i just took a look at the adept guide, wasn't there something regarding the use of sudo for gui apps? [05:16] kdesu vs sudo, i.e. [05:25] robotgeek: the adept guide unfortnatly hasn't been touched since breezy [05:25] so i don'tk now how accurate it is [05:25] jjesse: hmm, okay. [05:28] mgalvin: ping [05:43] robotgeek: There's something on the RootSudo wiki regarding sudo on graphical apps. [05:47] FreakinNuts: i'll take a look for the details, i think it might be wrong to use sudo for graphical apps [05:47] robotgeek: That's correct....you want to use something like gksudo or use the "Run Application As" feature that is implemented in Ubuntu. [05:48] kdesu in kubuntu. === robotgeek will submit a patch for the Adept Guide :) [05:49] hmm, it's a one liner. [05:50] jjesse: will you correct it, or you want me to mail it to the list? === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul_ [n=ompaul@213-202-162-127.bas503.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === FreakinNuts is now known as IanW|Away === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-69-90.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:47] Burgwork: ping [08:49] hi robotgeek, are you ready? [08:49] yeah, LaserJock :) === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:49] LaserJock: meeting has not yet started, though [08:50] robotgeek: how long have you been contributing to Ubuntu? that is one of the main questions they will ask [08:50] since 2005-09-08. [08:50] robotgeek: good [08:51] :) [08:51] robotgeek, pong [08:51] Burgwork: CC in 8 minutes :) [08:52] hmm, is mdke going to be there? [08:52] robotgeek, already there [08:52] Burgwork: cool thanks! === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:12] mdke_: ping [09:23] wrt the wiku can the text and title search be merged that was what provoked my email? [09:24] ompaul, would be nice [09:24] it is not obvious and I have 10 years + on web browsing [09:33] robotgeek, pong [09:33] mdke_: #ubuntu-meeting, betterwikispecs [09:33] or docs, rahter === Madpilot [n=bburger@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:36] what are they talking about? [09:37] mdke: they kinda went tangent after the server issue [09:37] in -meeting? no idea, I just got in [09:37] oh [09:38] Burgwork raised his favourite piece of flamebait, "We should use MediaWiki instead of MoinMoin" :P [09:38] heh [09:38] no, I am raising why I think mediawiki is technically better suited to our tak [09:40] Burgwork, that's very helpful === LaserJoc1 [n=mantha@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgwork sends his laundry list of things we wants from a wiki to the list [09:57] mdke, are you being sarcastic? [09:57] not now, but i was yeah [09:58] mdke Burgwork, that's very helpful <-- that line [09:58] yes [09:58] figured, but wasn't certain [09:59] congrats robotgeek :) [09:59] i'm bummed I wasn't around to defend my spec :/ === Kyral pounces on robotgeek [10:00] 'bout time you bastard ;P [10:01] night all [10:01] later, mdke [10:03] I'm just reading the CC backlog, so the general idea was that the current wiki is fine and we don't need a docteam wiki? [10:03] yes, that was the CCs idea [10:04] sounds like it :( [10:04] I missed the first part of the meeting, though [10:05] we simply need to sell the idea better [10:05] hmmm, I thought we should move it from wiki to something else for that reason. It's sorta like "why do you need another wiki?" [10:05] they don't understand the value yet === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@222-154-113-246.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=bburger@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:29] Burgwork: would showing the stages a doc would go through help? === robotgeek gets back to work on KDG [10:31] LaserJock, sorry, don't understand [10:33] Burgwork: say something like, w.u.c --> gets cleaned up --> everybody likes --> new wiki ? Like what would the process be to get a new doc into the new wiki. [10:34] ah [10:34] the current idea is to migrate all docs, regardless of of state [10:34] really? I thought it was just going to be a few === mdke comes back from his seething session [10:34] LaserJock, no, all docs [10:35] do we want all docs? [10:35] yes [10:35] like even MOTU/* ? [10:35] no, those are not docs [10:35] anything in CategoryDocumentation === mdke nods [10:35] ahh, ok. that helps [10:36] ok, and then how is that different than the docteam repo work? (playing devil's advocate a little here) [10:37] because only a few people can access that [10:37] LaserJock: the wiki is far larger than any of our repo docs, and way more open [10:37] everyone would be able to edit the wiki [10:37] so then how is it different that the current wiki? [10:37] did you see the spec? === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:38] yes, but not recently. === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:38] we wouldn't have the specs, MOTU stuff, etc messing up the searches for actual docs [10:38] it would be different in two ways [10:38] 1, what Madpilot said, and 2, all the documentation would be in one place [10:38] BetterWikiDocs, right? [10:38] yes [10:38] but why wouldn't you just use namespace to do that? [10:39] or is that not practical [10:39] can MoinMoin do namespacing the same way MediaWiki can? [10:39] that doesn't help the search thing, and i am totally sold on having a single site which just does help [10:40] I'm just saying, why wouldn't you put all the docs under Documentation/ or something like that? that seems to seperate. [10:40] LaserJock, doesn't solve the searching issue [10:40] mdke: I think it is a great idea to have a single site for help. [10:40] got to run - work :P [10:40] see you all later [10:41] hmmm, but you can't just search within Documentation/* or CategoryDocumentation ? [10:41] what if you want to search somewhere else? [10:41] like for a spec [10:42] the problem of how do you guess what an anonymous user wants [10:42] the logged in users are pretty easy [10:42] I'd think we would be able to have some sore of drop-down menu of major catagories but I don't really know wiki stuff very well [10:42] you can't limit searches like that, unless you have a search box for each potential subject of the wiki [10:43] it seems like something like how forums are set up would do what you want as far as separation? === mdke wants a single site, with nothing but documentation [10:43] don't see how the forums apply? [10:43] there is simply no point making the effort of trying to push lots of things into one box [10:43] Burgwork: like how there are subforums and you can search within subforums, that's all [10:43] especially since they bear no relation to each other [10:44] yes, but that is totally suboptimal [10:44] all forums are crap for actually getting useful information, to be honest [10:44] great for random chitchat [10:44] they are good for questions and answers [10:44] and bad as a reference tool [10:44] I'm not talking about making it a forum, but just have forum-like search features === mdke repeats his box point [10:45] I agree [10:45] what's the value in having them on the wiki? [10:45] what? [10:45] docs [10:45] if there is some value, I'm prepared to weigh it against the value of having them on their own site [10:45] which is considerable :) [10:45] right now, I don't see any value in it [10:46] erm [10:46] there is very little intercommunication between doc wiki pages and non-doc wiki pages === mdke rereads what he has written [10:46] damn my stream of consciousness [10:46] people can search across many different areas I suppose. Perhaps a spec has something to do with what you are looking for. How do you know that the user isn't interested in specs or MOTU docs, etc. [10:46] ergo, very few links to break and little referencing of the other area [10:46] LaserJock, if they are interested in that, they go to the wiki and search [10:46] LaserJock, that is the reason why we need another wiki [10:47] if they want documentation, they go to documentation and search [10:47] we don't know what they are searching for [10:47] but it isn't always so clear cut. How is the user to know whether they need w.u.c or h.u.c ? [10:47] they want help vs. they want to help Ubuntu [10:47] there is a very clear cut line there [10:48] it isn't to me [10:48] they'll know, because it will be called the right thing [10:48] help === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:48] and it will have a massive logo on it :) [10:49] but what if I need help packaging, for instance? (something I know) do I look at h.u.c or w.u.c? [10:49] w [10:49] because that is development [10:49] but I needed help? [10:49] that is helping Ubuntu, not setting up your printer === mdke agrees, LaserJock needs help [10:49] totally ;-)( [10:50] umm ;-) even [10:50] but you're not going to find that on anything.ubuntu.com [10:50] ok, so what if you had a choice at h.u.c when you did a search to also search w.u.c? === robotgeek thinks it is a search problem [10:50] robotgeek, no, it's not as simple as that [10:51] i think the mistake was presenting this as a search problem [10:51] mdke: hmm, okay [10:51] it's much bigger [10:52] my problem is I don't see "help" as being very clearly defined so I'm having trouble drawing the line between help. and wiki. [10:52] LaserJock, call it documentation then [10:52] robotgeek, it's about giving users documentation in one place rather than two, and giving documentation a bigger and better profile [10:52] robotgeek, search is one aspect of the problem [10:52] mdke: there are a lot of wiki pages in MOTU/ that I would call documentation. [10:52] i have 90% of my time found the needed information by using the search for text function in the wiki [10:52] LaserJock, call it user documentation then [10:53] end user help [10:53] mdke: #3 on BetterWikiDocs makes a lot of sense [10:53] MS has a clear distinction [10:53] robotgeek, yeah, that should be #1 for me [10:54] MS isn't very open either. we do our development in public which means, I think, that the separation is a little fuzzy [10:54] yes, but think of the difference between MSDN and their knowledgebase [10:54] what if what the user is wanting help on is addressed in a spec? [10:55] LaserJock, i think you're clinging too hard to this "definition" thing. Just think about your users looking for documentation to use their system [10:55] end users should not be using a spec to get help [10:55] LaserJock, if the help is in a spec, then there is no need for us to assist them to find it, it should be in documentation [10:55] mdke: the reason that I'm worried about the definition is that we will have to decide what goes to help. [10:55] we can say in the help "This is going to be made easier by XYZ spec" [10:55] sure [10:56] LaserJock, that is not as difficult as you're making out, i repeat, think about users grappling with their system [10:56] there is a pretty clear distinction between development and user documentation [10:57] I suppose, although I think they are pretty closely tied together [10:57] unless the help meets all the users needs [10:57] they aren't, IMO. [10:57] ok, i'm going to bed [10:57] night mdke [10:57] nighty night [10:57] I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for having to root around in the development to get the help I needed. [10:58] LaserJock, no one is undervaluing that [10:58] cya mdke, and just to let you know, I support the spec. I think it is a great idea [10:58] :) === robotgeek is still trying to understand the details === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [10:59] I'm just trying to work through all the issues and get us thinking about it. I think there are disadvantages to anything but I think in this case the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:08] hmm, I don't suppose it is possible to have a test wiki (mediawiki maybe?) to do somewhat of a mockup? [11:16] LaserJock, see the thread on -doc about improving the wiki to what it needs to be [11:18] well, but for our separate wiki? I just wonder what it would look like? Same as right now with a link at help.u.c? [11:18] ideally it would integrated svn and wiki [11:18] mdke did some work on this [11:22] cool === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-69-90.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:42] hi, can anyone help with some docbook? [11:42] desktopguide.xml:25: element book: validity error : root and DTD name do not match 'book' and 'article' === IanW|Away is now known as FreakinNuts [11:46] robotgeek: umm, did you happen to mix book and article somewhere? [11:49] LaserJock: i don't think so [11:51] LaserJock: lemme revert the files, lol