[12:07] <robotgeek> Burgwork: ping
[12:13] <Burgwork> robotgeek, pong
[12:13] <robotgeek> Burgwork: would you be willing to cheer for me in the meeting tommorow?
[12:15] <Burgwork> robotgeek, what time is it?
[12:15] <robotgeek> 20.00 utc, 21'st 
[12:17] <Burgwork> robotgeek, yes I can, as that is noon here
[12:17] <robotgeek> Burgwork: cool, thanks! 
[12:18] <Burgwork> robotgeek, can you ping me when the meeting starts?
[12:18] <robotgeek> Burgwork: sure, will do :)
[03:35] <LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
[03:36] <Madpilot> hi LaserJock
[05:50] <robotgeek> Madpilot: ping
[06:01] <Madpilot> robotgeek: hi
[06:02] <robotgeek> Madpilot: just reminding, CC meeting tommorow :)
[06:02] <Madpilot> yeah 2000Z - I'm in a RL meeting at exactly the same time :(
[06:02] <robotgeek> RL?
[06:03] <Madpilot> real life
[06:03] <robotgeek> ah..
[06:03] <robotgeek> no problems :)
[06:03] <robotgeek> Burg work is cheering
[06:03] <Madpilot> yeah, I wanted to be there - my name is up for op on #ubuntu, for my sins
[06:03] <Madpilot> :P
[06:05] <robotgeek> so is Seveas, nalioth
[06:05] <robotgeek> and anyone else from #ubuntu-doc :)
[06:06] <Madpilot> good luck with membership, anyway - I'll be talking w/ seveas later, and I'll put a word in for you - I'm sure mdke already has
[06:06] <robotgeek> thanks Madpilot 
[06:12] <LaserJock> robotgeek: hmm, I think I might have a meeting 2000-2100 but it might be short. I'll try to drop in on the CC meeting if I can
[06:12] <robotgeek> thanks LaserJock 
[06:14] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i'll probably ping you when the time comes :)
[06:21] <LaserJock> robotgeek: what is the URL for your wiki page?
[06:22] <robotgeek> LaserJock: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
[06:25] <bhuvan> robotgeek: best wishes!
[06:25] <robotgeek> thanks bhuvan 
[06:25] <bhuvan> robotgeek: i prefer to include links to your patches in your wiki page
[06:25] <robotgeek> bhuvan: nice idea!
[06:25] <bhuvan> robotgeek: thus, the approver may be more comfortable
[06:25] <bhuvan> you may get the links from ubuntudoc-commits mailing lists
[06:26] <robotgeek> yes, i am subscribed :)
[06:26] <EricNeon> hi
[06:27] <LaserJock> hi EricNeon 
[06:27] <Madpilot> hi EricNeon
[06:27] <EricNeon> :)
[06:29] <EricNeon> I am writing a mail to Mark to introduce the Ubuntu-cn team
[06:30] <Madpilot> cn?
[06:30] <EricNeon> we will speed up for dapper release
[06:30] <EricNeon> CN, Ubuntu China
[06:31] <EricNeon> last week ,we have a meeting with mark and yaste and hande 
[06:31] <Madpilot> cool - Mark was just in China, I think
[06:33] <EricNeon> we talk about community construction and dapper release party
[06:34] <EricNeon> they ask me mail a plan to him
[06:35] <robotgeek> bhuvan: more work for me :)
[06:58] <robotgeek> bhuvan: thanks, done
[06:58] <bhuvan> robotgeek: ok
[07:04] <bhuvan> robotgeek: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-February/001913.html
[07:05] <robotgeek> bhuvan: hmm, my email client missed that :)
[07:05] <robotgeek> thanks :)
[07:29] <LaserJock_away> lol, I'm already thinking about dapper+1
[07:29] <Madpilot> bhuvan: braver than I am :P
[07:30] <robotgeek> heh, i am on dapper and lovin it
[07:30] <LaserJock_away> I've been on dapper since about Oct.
[07:30] <bhuvan> robotgeek, great!
[07:30] <robotgeek> bhuvan: my airport extreme works, i just moved my kmail to dapper too.
[07:31] <LaserJock_away> so how do you guys write for dapper? Do you have dapper installed on a spare box or something?
[07:32] <robotgeek> LaserJock_away: yeah, i just use dapper
[07:32] <Madpilot> LaserJock_away: most of the apps I've written stuff for aren't changing much for Dapper, from what I've heard
[07:32] <robotgeek> lots of ppl use qemu/whatever
[07:32] <Madpilot> Is there a Flight4 LiveCD?
[07:32] <LaserJock_away> yeah
[07:33] <LaserJock_away> it should have espresso on it so you can install from the liveCD
[07:36] <LaserJock_away> hmm, I might try it out too. I haven't used any of the Flight .isos
[07:37] <jsgotangco> my hibernate is borked
[07:37] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: uggh
[07:37] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:37] <jsgotangco> the joys of laptop testing
[07:38] <jsgotangco> robotgeek, sleep resides in memory
[07:38] <jsgotangco> hibernate goes to disk
[07:38] <robotgeek> ah, i don't think i've ever hibernated
[07:39] <robotgeek> macs don't hibernate, lol
[07:41] <LaserJock_away> I haven't been bold enough to try Ubuntu on my laptop. Dapper on a desktop no problem, but laptops just scare me ;-)
[07:41] <LaserJock_away> robotgeek: they don't, my iMac does I think
[07:42] <robotgeek> LaserJock_away: my power button doesn't work, closing the lid sleeps well, however
[08:51] <mdke_> morning
[08:57] <Madpilot> mdke_: you going to make the CC meeting?
[08:58] <mdke_> maybe, maybe not
[08:59] <Madpilot> robotgeek is going for membership, is all
[09:01] <mdke_> yeah, saw it in the scrollback
[09:01] <jsgotangco> hmmm CC would be 4am on my side :/
[09:01] <mdke_> his membership is so obviously a cinch that our presence is unnecessary, but I will leave a message if I can't get there
[09:03] <mdke_> Madpilot, couple of TODOs on the desktopguide I thought of recently
[09:03] <mdke_> i added a blank section for how to use the menu editor
[09:04] <mdke_> that way we can point to that, instead of having those ugly sections about adding a desktop file in /usr/share/applications
[09:04] <mdke_> those are truly awful
[09:06] <Madpilot> true - I'm torrenting the Flight4 LiveCD right now, so I'll play with it tomorrow and write some of that
[09:06] <mdke_> rocking
[09:07] <mdke_> the other thing was maybe we could include something on apt-get in the add-applications section
[09:07] <Madpilot> does the server-guide cover apt-get? Could we link to their docs?
[09:10] <mdke_> not easily i don't think
[09:10] <mdke_> the problem is that the guide will be both on the system and on the internet, the links might break
[09:10] <mdke_> we could use their code though
[09:10] <mdke_> if its friendly enough
[09:17] <Madpilot> stuff written for server admins might be a bit much for newbies to the CLI...
[09:18] <Madpilot> I'll apply the same test to it I did to vim: If I understand it, I'll write about it. If I don't, forget it. :P
[09:23] <mdke_> :)
[09:24] <mdke_> -> work
[10:00] <Kamping_At_Hut> is there anything on printer sharing in ubuntu breezy in the help? the wiki and help.ubuntu dont seem to have anything
[10:00] <Madpilot> Kamping_At_Hut: there are wiki articles on XP->Ubuntu and Ubuntu->XP printer sharing
[10:01] <Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: im after ubuntu -> debian sharing, same deal?
[10:01] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWinXP
[10:01] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WindowsXPPrinter
[10:01] <Madpilot> no idea, but that should be easier than win->Linux
[10:02] <Kamping_At_Hut> i dont think it is ;) because of the cups mangling in ubuntu
[10:02] <Madpilot> hmm, a quick wiki search only turns up specs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrinterSharing
[10:02] <Madpilot> not a good sign
[10:03] <Kamping_At_Hut> mm. sounds like your finding the same stuff as me :/
[10:04] <Kamping_At_Hut> nothing on break-my-ubuntu either (aka ubuntuguide)
[10:05] <Madpilot> heh
[10:06] <Kamping_At_Hut> im sure there was a few lines of the config file you change and you could do sharing :/ *cant rememeber where he saw it * 
[10:06] <Madpilot> check the other "we're too cool for the official wiki" wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/BreezyCust
 ok good idea
[10:07] <Madpilot> actually, some of the stuff there is pretty good - the Breezy eyecandy section, for example
[10:08] <Kamping_At_Hut> it may be good stuff, its just a pity it cant be with other good stuff :
[10:08] <Kamping_At_Hut> :| (damn keyboard with | in the wrong spot)
[10:10] <Madpilot> doesn't seem to be anything at gwos, either
[10:12] <Kamping_At_Hut> im going to try this http://occy.net/printing
[10:12] <mdke_> some printing help would be useful
[10:13] <Madpilot> mdke_: can you start an email of "things it would be cool to get into the docs before Dapper string freeze"?
 how long is it utnill freeze? a month?
[10:13] <Kamping_At_Hut> *untill
[10:13] <Madpilot> about that
[10:13] <mdke_> Madpilot, alright
[10:14] <Kamping_At_Hut> i can probably put my hand up for something, just depends on time restraints
[10:18] <Madpilot> Kamping_At_Hut: that printing url - "occy" rings faint bells - someone who shows up on #ubuntu or #ubuntu-offtopic sometimes, I think
[10:21] <Kamping_At_Hut> woot. it works
[10:21] <Kamping_At_Hut> *hugs cups, even ubuntus version*
[10:22] <Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: hm. ill check my logs then and see if it comes up
[10:27] <Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: yeh, he/she/it seems to show up a bit (lots of log entries)
[10:27] <Kamping_At_Hut> brb. finding network calbe :/
[10:48] <mpt> UBUNTU DOCUMENT STORAGE FACILITY
[10:48] <mpt> INTRUDERS WILL BE PROSECUTED
[10:48] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:48] <jsgotangco> seriously...
[10:49] <mpt> There's way too much meta-ness in Ubuntu documentation generally
[10:49] <mpt> Like, using the word "documentation"
[10:49] <mpt> and the word "wiki"
[10:49] <mpt> and the word "user"
[10:50] <mpt> and "document" and "storage" and "facility"
[10:50] <Kamping_At_Hut> meta?
[10:50] <Madpilot> meta-ness?
[10:50] <mpt> meta-ness, i.e. writing about the writing rather than writing about the topic
[10:50] <Madpilot> ah, OK
[10:51] <Kamping_At_Hut> *blank look*
[10:51] <Madpilot> see also our ongoing efforts to get our wiki's UserDocumentation page into some sort of usable shape :P
[10:51] <mpt> Kamping_At_Hut, a simple example, there's a wiki page called "UserDocumentation"
[10:52] <mpt> not "HelpUsingUbuntu" or "UbuntuSupport" or something like that, but "UserDocumentation"
[10:53] <Kamping_At_Hut> mm. think i get it
[10:53] <Madpilot> as opposed to too much of the rest of the wiki, which is DeveloperDocumentation or ProjectDocumentation or some such...
[10:53] <mpt> Madpilot, yeah, separate wikis will help there
[10:54] <mpt> but it could still have been called "HelpUsingUbuntu" from the beginning
[10:54] <jsgotangco> we are all experts in the end
[10:56] <Madpilot> we can change the name when we migrate to the new server - there'll be lots of redirects going in anyway
[10:56] <mpt> well, on a separate help site, it can be called "/" :-)
[10:57] <Madpilot> yeah, that too :P
[10:58] <Madpilot> giving the main page a name does make it easier to link back to, though
[10:59] <Madpilot> Wikipedia uses Main_Page
[10:59] <mpt> to its eternal shame
[11:00] <mpt> hmm, I suppose that's a feature request for Moin
[11:00] <Madpilot> it's more descriptive than "Index", I guess
[11:02] <mpt> That the biggest text on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page> is "Main Page" is stupid
[11:02] <mpt> It should be "Wikipedia"
[11:02] <Madpilot> bug in MediaWiki, I guess
[11:03] <mpt> Same goes for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ and "FrontPage" -- it's not a wiki about using Microsoft Web authoring tools!
[11:03] <Madpilot> bug in all wiki apps, then :P
[11:03] <mpt> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ has it right
[11:04] <mpt> ah, they don't repeat the title as a heading on any page
[11:04] <Madpilot> nice - so it *is* possible to seperate page name from title
[11:05] <Madpilot> actually, they do, kind of, but it's up in the grey header so it's less obvious
[03:27] <mgalvin> anyone here have privs to make a wiki page immutable?
[04:28] <mdke_> mgalvin, no one does at all, here or not
[04:29] <mgalvin> mdke_: ah ok, thanks
[04:30] <mgalvin> just wondering b/c people keep ranting and/or making large modifications to DapperFlight4, i was looking for a way to prevent people from ranting on that page and such
[04:30] <mgalvin> not a big deal
[04:30] <jsgotangco> hmm
[04:30] <jsgotangco> how ugly does the <procedure> block render in yelp?
[04:32] <mdke_> mgalvin, publish it on a web site rather than a wiki?
[04:33] <mdke_> jsgotangco, it's fine, similar to orderedlist
[04:33] <jsgotangco> okay
[04:33] <jsgotangco> s/to/from
[04:47] <mgalvin> mdke_: that is a possibility
[04:51] <jsgotangco> heh that didn't look bad at all thanks
[05:16] <robotgeek> jjesse: i just took a look at the adept guide, wasn't there something regarding the use of sudo for gui apps?
[05:16] <robotgeek> kdesu vs sudo, i.e.
[05:25] <jjesse> robotgeek: the adept guide unfortnatly hasn't been touched since breezy
[05:25] <jjesse> so i don'tk now how accurate it is
[05:25] <robotgeek> jjesse: hmm, okay.
[05:28] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: ping
[05:43] <FreakinNuts> robotgeek: There's something on the RootSudo wiki regarding sudo on graphical apps.  
[05:47] <robotgeek> FreakinNuts: i'll take a look for the details, i think it might be wrong to use sudo for graphical apps
[05:47] <FreakinNuts> robotgeek: That's correct....you want to use something like gksudo or use the "Run Application As" feature that is implemented in Ubuntu.
[05:48] <FreakinNuts> kdesu in kubuntu.
[05:49] <robotgeek> hmm, it's a one liner. 
[05:50] <robotgeek> jjesse: will you correct it, or you want me to mail it to the list?
[08:47] <robotgeek> Burgwork: ping
[08:49] <LaserJock> hi robotgeek, are you ready?
[08:49] <robotgeek> yeah, LaserJock :)
[08:49] <robotgeek> LaserJock: meeting has not yet started, though
[08:50] <LaserJock> robotgeek: how long have you been contributing to Ubuntu? that is one of the main questions they will ask
[08:50] <robotgeek> since 2005-09-08.
[08:50] <LaserJock> robotgeek: good
[08:51] <robotgeek> :)
[08:51] <Burgwork> robotgeek, pong
[08:51] <robotgeek> Burgwork: CC in 8 minutes :)
[08:52] <LaserJock> hmm, is mdke going to be there?
[08:52] <Burgwork> robotgeek, already there
[08:52] <robotgeek> Burgwork: cool thanks!
[09:12] <robotgeek> mdke_: ping
[09:23] <ompaul> wrt the wiku  can the text and title search be merged that was what provoked my email? 
[09:24] <Burgwork> ompaul, would be nice
[09:24] <ompaul> it is not obvious and I have 10 years + on web browsing
[09:33] <mdke_> robotgeek, pong
[09:33] <robotgeek> mdke_: #ubuntu-meeting, betterwikispecs
[09:33] <robotgeek> or docs, rahter
[09:36] <mdke> what are they talking about?
[09:37] <robotgeek> mdke: they kinda went tangent after the server issue
[09:37] <Madpilot> in -meeting? no idea, I just got in
[09:37] <mdke> oh
[09:38] <Madpilot> Burgwork raised his favourite piece of flamebait, "We should use MediaWiki instead of MoinMoin" :P
[09:38] <robotgeek> heh
[09:38] <Burgwork> no, I am raising why I think mediawiki is technically better suited to our tak
[09:40] <mdke> Burgwork, that's very helpful
[09:57] <Burgwork> mdke, are you being sarcastic?
[09:57] <mdke> not now, but i was yeah
[09:58] <Burgwork> mdke Burgwork, that's very helpful <-- that line
[09:58] <mdke> yes
[09:58] <Burgwork> figured, but wasn't certain
[09:59] <manicka> congrats robotgeek :)
[09:59] <mdke> i'm bummed I wasn't around to defend my spec :/
[10:00] <Kyral> 'bout time you bastard ;P
[10:01] <mdke> night all
[10:01] <Madpilot> later, mdke
[10:03] <LaserJoc1> I'm just reading the CC backlog, so the general idea was that the current wiki is fine and we don't need a docteam wiki?
[10:03] <Burgwork> yes, that was the CCs idea
[10:04] <Madpilot> sounds like it :(
[10:04] <Madpilot> I missed the first part of the meeting, though
[10:05] <Burgwork> we simply need to sell the idea better
[10:05] <LaserJoc1> hmmm, I thought we should move it from wiki to something else for that reason. It's sorta like "why do you need another wiki?"
[10:05] <Burgwork> they don't understand the value yet
[10:29] <LaserJock> Burgwork: would showing the stages a doc would go through help?
[10:31] <Burgwork> LaserJock, sorry, don't understand
[10:33] <LaserJock> Burgwork: say something like, w.u.c --> gets cleaned up --> everybody likes --> new wiki ? Like what would the process be to get a new doc into the new wiki.
[10:34] <Burgwork> ah
[10:34] <Burgwork> the current idea is to migrate all docs, regardless of of state
[10:34] <LaserJock> really? I thought it was just going to be a few
[10:34] <mdke> LaserJock, no, all docs
[10:35] <LaserJock> do we want all docs?
[10:35] <Burgwork> yes
[10:35] <LaserJock> like even MOTU/* ?
[10:35] <Burgwork> no, those are not docs
[10:35] <Burgwork> anything in CategoryDocumentation
[10:35] <LaserJock> ahh, ok. that helps
[10:36] <LaserJock> ok, and then how is that different than the docteam repo work? (playing devil's advocate a little here)
[10:37] <mdke> because only a few people can access that
[10:37] <Madpilot> LaserJock: the wiki is far larger than any of our repo docs, and way more open
[10:37] <mdke> everyone would be able to edit the wiki
[10:37] <LaserJock> so then how is it different that the current wiki?
[10:37] <mdke> did you see the spec?
[10:38] <LaserJock> yes, but not recently.
[10:38] <Madpilot> we wouldn't have the specs, MOTU stuff, etc messing up the searches for actual docs
[10:38] <mdke> it would be different in two ways
[10:38] <mdke> 1, what Madpilot said, and 2, all the documentation would be in one place
[10:38] <LaserJock> BetterWikiDocs, right?
[10:38] <mdke> yes
[10:38] <LaserJock> but why wouldn't you just use namespace to do that?
[10:39] <LaserJock> or is that not practical
[10:39] <Madpilot> can MoinMoin do namespacing the same way MediaWiki can?
[10:39] <mdke> that doesn't help the search thing, and i am totally sold on having a single site which just does help
[10:40] <LaserJock> I'm just saying, why wouldn't you put all the docs under Documentation/ or something like that? that seems to seperate.
[10:40] <Burgwork> LaserJock, doesn't solve the searching issue
[10:40] <LaserJock> mdke: I think it is a great idea to have a single site for help.
[10:40] <Madpilot> got to run - work :P
[10:40] <Madpilot> see you all later
[10:41] <LaserJock> hmmm, but you can't just search within Documentation/* or CategoryDocumentation ?
[10:41] <mdke> what if you want to search somewhere else?
[10:41] <mdke> like for a spec
[10:42] <Burgwork> the problem of how do you guess what an anonymous user wants
[10:42] <Burgwork> the logged in users are pretty easy
[10:42] <LaserJock> I'd think we would be able to have some sore of drop-down menu of major catagories but I don't really know wiki stuff very well
[10:42] <mdke> you can't limit searches like that, unless you have a search box for each potential subject of the wiki
[10:43] <LaserJock> it seems like something like how forums are set up would do what you want as far as separation?
[10:43] <Burgwork> don't see how the forums apply?
[10:43] <mdke> there is simply no point making the effort of trying to push lots of things into one box
[10:43] <LaserJock> Burgwork: like how there are subforums and you can search within subforums, that's all
[10:43] <mdke> especially since they bear no relation to each other
[10:44] <Burgwork> yes, but that is totally suboptimal
[10:44] <Burgwork> all forums are crap for actually getting useful information, to be honest
[10:44] <Burgwork> great for random chitchat
[10:44] <mdke> they are good for questions and answers
[10:44] <mdke> and bad as a reference tool
[10:44] <LaserJock> I'm not talking about making it a forum, but just have forum-like search features
[10:45] <LaserJock> I agree
[10:45] <mdke> what's the value in having them on the wiki?
[10:45] <LaserJock> what?
[10:45] <mdke> docs
[10:45] <mdke> if there is some value, I'm prepared to weigh it against the value of having them on their own site
[10:45] <mdke> which is considerable :)
[10:45] <mdke> right now, I don't see any value in it
[10:46] <mdke> erm
[10:46] <Burgwork> there is very little intercommunication between doc wiki pages and non-doc wiki pages
[10:46] <mdke> damn my stream of consciousness
[10:46] <LaserJock> people can search across many different areas I suppose. Perhaps a spec has something to do with what you are looking for. How do you know that the user isn't interested in specs or MOTU docs, etc.
[10:46] <Burgwork> ergo, very few links to break and little referencing of the other area
[10:46] <mdke> LaserJock, if they are interested in that, they go to the wiki and search
[10:46] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that is the reason why we need another wiki
[10:47] <mdke> if they want documentation, they go to documentation and search
[10:47] <Burgwork> we don't know what they are searching for
[10:47] <LaserJock> but it isn't always so clear cut. How is the user to know whether they need w.u.c or h.u.c ?
[10:47] <Burgwork> they want help vs. they want to help Ubuntu
[10:47] <Burgwork> there is a very clear cut line there
[10:48] <LaserJock> it isn't to me
[10:48] <mdke> they'll know, because it will be called the right thing
[10:48] <mdke> help
[10:48] <mdke> and it will have a massive logo on it :)
[10:49] <LaserJock> but what if I need help packaging, for instance? (something I know) do I look at h.u.c or w.u.c?
[10:49] <mdke> w
[10:49] <mdke> because that is development
[10:49] <LaserJock> but I needed help?
[10:49] <Burgwork> that is helping Ubuntu, not setting up your printer
[10:49] <LaserJock> totally ;-)(
[10:50] <LaserJock> umm ;-) even
[10:50] <mdke> but you're not going to find that on anything.ubuntu.com
[10:50] <LaserJock> ok, so what if you had a choice at h.u.c when you did a search to also search w.u.c?
[10:50] <mdke> robotgeek, no, it's not as simple as that
[10:51] <mdke> i think the mistake was presenting this as a search problem
[10:51] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay
[10:51] <mdke> it's much bigger
[10:52] <LaserJock> my problem is I don't see "help" as being very clearly defined so I'm having trouble drawing the line between help. and wiki.
[10:52] <mdke> LaserJock, call it documentation then
[10:52] <mdke> robotgeek, it's about giving users documentation in one place rather than two, and giving documentation a bigger and better profile
[10:52] <Burgwork> robotgeek, search is one aspect of the problem
[10:52] <LaserJock> mdke: there are a lot of wiki pages in MOTU/ that I would call documentation.
[10:52] <jjesse> i have 90% of my time found the needed information by using the search for text function in  the wiki
[10:52] <mdke> LaserJock, call it user documentation then
[10:53] <Burgwork> end user help
[10:53] <robotgeek> mdke: #3 on BetterWikiDocs makes a lot of sense
[10:53] <Burgwork> MS has a clear distinction
[10:53] <mdke> robotgeek, yeah, that should be #1 for me
[10:54] <LaserJock> MS isn't very open either. we do our development in public which means, I think, that the separation is a little fuzzy
[10:54] <Burgwork> yes, but think of the difference between MSDN and their knowledgebase
[10:54] <LaserJock> what if what the user is wanting help on is addressed in a spec?
[10:55] <mdke> LaserJock, i think you're clinging too hard to this "definition" thing. Just think about your users looking for documentation to use their system
[10:55] <Burgwork> end users should not be using a spec to get help
[10:55] <mdke> LaserJock, if the help is in a spec, then there is no need for us to assist them to find it, it should be in documentation
[10:55] <LaserJock> mdke: the reason that I'm worried about the definition is that we will have to decide what goes to help.
[10:55] <Burgwork> we can say in the help "This is going to be made easier by XYZ spec"
[10:55] <LaserJock> sure
[10:56] <mdke> LaserJock, that is not as difficult as you're making out, i repeat, think about users grappling with their system
[10:56] <mdke> there is a pretty clear distinction between development and user documentation
[10:57] <LaserJock> I suppose, although I think they are pretty closely tied together
[10:57] <LaserJock> unless the help meets all the users needs
[10:57] <mdke> they aren't, IMO.
[10:57] <mdke> ok, i'm going to bed
[10:57] <robotgeek> night mdke 
[10:57] <mdke> nighty night
[10:57] <LaserJock> I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for having to root around in the development to get the help I needed.
[10:58] <mdke> LaserJock, no one is undervaluing that
[10:58] <LaserJock> cya mdke, and just to let you know, I support the spec. I think it is a great idea
[10:58] <mdke> :)
[10:59] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to work through all the issues and get us thinking about it. I think there are disadvantages to anything but I think in this case the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages
[11:08] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't suppose it is possible to have a test wiki (mediawiki maybe?) to do somewhat of a mockup?
[11:16] <Burgwork> LaserJock, see the thread on -doc about improving the wiki to what it needs to be
[11:18] <LaserJock> well, but for our separate wiki? I just wonder what it would look like? Same as right now with a link at help.u.c?
[11:18] <Burgwork> ideally it would integrated svn and wiki
[11:18] <Burgwork> mdke did some work on this
[11:22] <LaserJock> cool
[11:42] <robotgeek> hi, can anyone help with some docbook?
[11:42] <robotgeek> desktopguide.xml:25: element book: validity error : root and DTD name do not match 'book' and 'article'
[11:46] <LaserJock> robotgeek: umm, did you happen  to mix book and article somewhere?
[11:49] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i don't think so
[11:51] <robotgeek> LaserJock: lemme revert the files, lol