[08:30] <ajmitch> robitaille: when's the next TB meeting?
[08:40] <robitaille> ajmitch:  it hasn't been announced yet
[08:40] <ajmitch> how irritating
[08:41] <robitaille> they are often announced at the very last minute
[08:41] <ajmitch> it's hard for those of us in different timezones when that happens
[08:41] <robitaille> last one was Feb 14, so my guess is that it will be Feb 28.  They are always at 20:00 utc
[08:42] <ajmitch> sometimes I wish they'd go back to rotating the meeting times
[08:42] <ajmitch> since it can shut out a number of people from attending at all
[08:43] <jsgotangco> 20UTC can be so evil to us
[08:44] <ajmitch> yeah
[08:44] <ajmitch> but it's nothing we can change by complaining at the moment
[08:45] <freeflying> ajmitch: and that will be 4:00 AM here ,hehe
[11:25] <Seveas> ajmitch, freeflying: the problem is that 75% of the CC is in london - times have to suit them or there is no meeting...
[04:04] <Kyral> Chimata....the meeting is today at 1500 EST?
[08:24] <Kyral> 30 mins to CC Meeting?
[08:25] <lucas> yes
[08:25] <lucas> but 20 mins to football matches
[08:25] <lucas> guess who wins :)
[08:25] <Kyral> mmkay I'll be here but I'll also be studying...not that I have anything to do this time around, not supporting anyone
[08:53] <Kyral> Man I cannot wait until GNOME 2.14 comes out fully
[08:53] <Kyral> that new Admin center looks nice :D
[08:53] <LaserJock> Kyral: URL?
[08:53] <Kyral> It was on Slashdot recently...I don't remember :(
[08:54] <Burgwork> Kyral, you can already play with pessulus and sabayon on ubuntu
[08:54] <LaserJock> Kyral: np
[08:54] <robotgeek> http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot?m=3820
[08:56] <LaserJock> ohhh, I like the gnome-terminal speedup
[08:57] <Kyral> I recall Jeff giving a brief presentation on Sabayon during UBZ
[08:58] <Kyral> oooh I love that new Yelp hing
[08:58] <Kyral> Indexed Man and Info pages
[08:58] <LaserJock> yeah
[08:58] <Kyral> YEA!
[08:59] <LaserJock> lol, they must be going after Ubuntu users - "As every dapper man knows, girls go crazy for smooth looking graphics." ;-)
[08:59] <tepsipakki> last time I tried sabayon the Xnest-server just crashed, need to try it now..
[08:59] <Kyral> lol
[09:00] <Kyral> Hmm
[09:00] <Kyral> I need to email the GEdit dev about adding in Enriched Text support
[09:00] <Kamion> elmo: here?
[09:00] <Kamion> mako: here?
[09:00] <Kamion> no sabdfl it seems, I imagine he's travelling
[09:00] <Kamion> still
[09:00] <elmo> I'm here
[09:00] <Kyral> Yah did anyone catch the bit about him in DW Weekly?
[09:00] <nalioth> robotgeek: started what?
[09:00] <elmo> and yeah sabdfl is, flying according to the board in the office
[09:01] <robotgeek> nalioth: :)
[09:01] <Kamion> Kyral: please move off-topic stuff elsewhere, personally I'd like to get this meeting over reasonably quickly so I can enjoy the evening :-)
[09:01] <mako> Kamion: yes
[09:01] <Kamion> excellent, quorum
[09:01] <Kyral> Kamion: it was my last bit :P
[09:01] <Seveas> coolness
[09:01] <Kamion> Increase the number of IRC ops/moderators in the major Ubuntu channels, especially #ubuntu. The 24hr nature of the channel - and the fact that the current ops are all busy people - has meant inadequate moderator coverage at times -- Madpilot
[09:01] <Seveas> let's get started
[09:01] <mako> a minute early even
[09:01] <Kamion> Seveas proposed Brian Burger and Paul O'Malley
[09:02] <Seveas> madpilot can not attend the meeting, but the request is clear
[09:02] <Kamion> we've talked to Brian before for membership; I think Paul too although I don't remember the conversation clearly
[09:02] <Kamion> do we have any current #ubuntu ops here who can give us the current ops list?
[09:02] <Seveas> Brian Burger is a member, Paul not yes
[09:02] <ompaul> Kamion, no I have never addressed this 
[09:02] <mako> i spent a decent amount of time with paul in the past
[09:02] <Kamion> ompaul: o
[09:02] <Kamion> k
[09:02] <Seveas> Kamion, /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
[09:03] <ompaul> mako, I still owe you coffee :)
[09:03] <robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators
[09:03] <Kamion> ah yes, this week it works for non-ops
[09:03] <Seveas> Kamion, during the bot attacks I set the 'secure' option on - didn't know it made all lists unavailable. I changed that when I heard this
[09:04] <Kamion> I agree that that list is probably not quite extensive enough for the current size and activity level of #ubuntu
[09:04] <Seveas> and quite a few on that list aren't very active in #ubuntu
[09:04] <mako> absolutely
[09:04] <Burgwork> I noticed that as well
[09:04] <Kamion> we could check with those people and remove them if they agree
[09:05] <Kamion> there's not much point having inactive ops around
[09:05] <mako> well, the currently problem is going to be solved by removing people
[09:05] <Seveas> Ok, I'll poke around for that
[09:05] <mako> that might be a good idea moving forward but we solve the immediate problem first
[09:05] <Kamion> what timezones do Brian and Paul occupy?
[09:05] <Seveas> is it ok to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
[09:06] <Seveas> paul is .ie, brian .ca
[09:06] <ompaul> I am in Dublin
[09:06] <Kyral> Might I make a suggestion? That we have an Op for every Timezone (at least one per zone)?
[09:06] <Burgwork> madpilot is -8, same as mdz, robitaille and myself
[09:06] <Kamion> Kyral: bit tricky for e.g. UTC-2 ;-)
[09:06] <Kyral> eh?
[09:07] <Seveas> Kyral, we need a few more from .au and related, if you have candidates: talk to us 
[09:07] <lucas> I'm not really happy with the idea of having non-members being ops
[09:07] <Kyral> oyah lol
[09:07] <Kamion> there
[09:07] <Kyral> Seveas: it was just an idea lol
[09:07] <Kyral> I mean itt would mean someone was up all the time
[09:07] <Seveas> lucas, generally I'd agree but for ompaul I'm happy to make an exception (and he should be poked to apply for membership)
[09:07] <Kamion> we were ok there while bob2 and daniels were active
[09:07] <jjesse> is it mostly australia/asian time that is missing?
[09:08] <Kyral> someone poke ajmitch for it :P
[09:08] <Seveas> jjesse, that part of the world is 'understaffed'
[09:08] <Kamion> I have no objection to Madpilot, and perhaps we can add ompaul pending his membership
[09:09] <Kamion> but somebody really ought to look out for good people in the understaffed timezones
[09:09] <ompaul> Kamion, consider me poked
[09:09] <Kamion> I don't think we can do that here
[09:09] <Seveas> Kamion, then let me repeat my question: is it ok for me to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
[09:09] <ompaul> Kamion, I'll stick it in for the next one
[09:09] <Seveas> robotgeek, #kubuntu ops are generally not appointed by the CC
[09:10] <robotgeek> Seveas: hmm, okay. 
[09:10] <Riddell> I appoint them
[09:10] <Kamion> Seveas: I would be happy with that, but you should check with jdub that he doesn't mind
[09:10] <Seveas> Kamion, will do
[09:10] <Seveas> do we need a quorum vote for these 2 issue or can we continue?
[09:10] <Kamion> (and mention that I recommend having more than one person who can create ops, perhaps)
[09:10] <Kamion> elmo, mako: any objections to Madpilot and ompaul as #ubuntu ops?
[09:10] <mako> absolutely no objections
[09:11] <elmo> no
[09:11] <Seveas> ok, next
[09:11] <Seveas> WikiLicensing
[09:12] <Seveas> "ready to go" means that the E-mail will be sent soon?
[09:13] <Kamion> hang on Seveas :)
[09:13] <Kyral> lol
[09:13] <Kamion> mako: did you ever get a chance to talk to that lawyer?
[09:14] <Kamion> about the wikipedia PD-self template?
[09:14] <Kamion> I rewrote the e-mail earlier, and would appreciate elmo and/or mako eyeballing it
[09:14] <mako> i think i asked greg and didn't hear back.. i should email SFLC or the wikipedia lawyer who i met a couple weeks ago
[09:14] <Kamion> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing/Email
[09:14] <Kyral> Someone make sure I am right on this, we are considering a CC-PD license (I apologize for asking this almost every meeting, school is owning my brain)
[09:14] <mako> ok
[09:14] <heno> there is still a technical task to be done in extracting those email addresses from the launchpad and moin records. So in that sense we are not ready to go
[09:15] <Kamion> Kyral: more or less yes, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-01-24.html to catch up
[09:15] <Seveas> Kyral, yes, CC-PD with additional statements for countries where PD is not allowed
[09:15] <Kamion> well, just PD, not CC-PD really
[09:15] <Kamion> it hardly makes a difference for PD :)
[09:15] <Kyral> Kamion: ty
[09:15] <mako> yes
[09:16] <Kamion> heno: is that a big task?
[09:16] <elmo> it's a bit comma tastic, but looks ok on first read
[09:16] <Kamion> I tend to overuse commas, feel free to reword as necessary
[09:16] <heno> Kamion: probably not for someone eho knows both systems. It's slightly beyond me though, I'm affraid
[09:16] <Hobbsee> morning all, sorry i'm late, i dont feel too well today
[09:17] <mako> jean-baptiste soufron, the primary lawyer for wikipedia, should be online soon and i can corner him
[09:17] <Kamion> heno: do we have somebody who knows how to do both, or will it be a coordination task?
[09:17] <elmo> Kamion: it's, okay, I'm, not, really, fussed
[09:17] <Kamion> mako: if you could let mdke know what the result of that is, that'd be good
[09:17] <mako> Kamion: ok
[09:18] <mako> it looks fine to me
[09:18] <Kamion> ok, I propose we let mdke coordinate the rest of this and move on, then
[09:18] <mako> my major concerns before seem to be addressed
[09:18] <heno> I think Gustavo or Adam should have no problem with it
[09:18] <Kamion> elmo: my wife says "now if you'd written that it would only have had two commas in it"
[09:19] <Kamion> ok, betterwikidocs
[09:19] <Seveas> BetterWikiDocs specification - can a server be made available to deploy this? (mdke and hno73) <-- Doesn't sound like a CC issue to me, TB rather
[09:19] <mako> neither really
[09:19] <elmo> err, yeah, neither
[09:19] <Kamion> I have to say I think it would be better to move the developer documentation
[09:19] <Kamion> than to move the user stuff
[09:19] <mako> i'talk to mark/jane 
[09:19] <Seveas> kamion++
[09:20] <Kamion> it's much easier to track down all developers and say "please use developer.ubuntu.com now" or whatever
[09:20] <mako> sure
[09:20] <Seveas> the wiki has already moved several times
[09:20] <Kamion> we had udu.wiki.ubuntu.com, I never really worked out why we merged
[09:20] <Seveas> having a developer.ubuntu.com also attracts new developers ;)
[09:21] <heno> Kamion: but there is also lots of stuff that is neither developer stuff nor docs, but people's private pages and such
[09:21] <Kyral> hehe
[09:21] <heno> 'my experience with ubuntu' etc
[09:21] <sorush20> hi
[09:21] <sorush20> comuunity council people.. 
[09:21] <Seveas> heno, then et the docteam fold them into the official docs, official docs shouldn't be a wiki...
[09:21] <jjesse> which is what is happening with h.u.com correct?
[09:21] <jjesse> help.ubuntu.com
[09:21] <Seveas> 'them' being the good documentation wikipage
[09:21] <Kamion> heno: right, not sure I have a good answer for that
[09:21] <mdz> I'm not particularly fussed either way about which wiki the specs go in, so long as the links from Launchpad work
[09:22] <Burgwork> Seveas, we are looking at a long term plan for better wiki docs. Moving them is the first step of that
[09:22] <Kamion> things start out as randomly-hacked-together pages, and move up to the status of documentation
[09:22] <heno> Kamion: but, yes moving the dev stuff would also help
[09:22] <Burgwork> Seveas, as the doc team cannot agree on further steps, but we do agree on moving it
[09:22] <Kamion> mdz: and as long as we stop moving them at some point. :-)
[09:22] <heno> if we had specs in a separate wiki we could structure it better
[09:23] <heno> dapper/SpecName
[09:23] <Seveas> Burgwork, then I think the plan should be worked out completely before we start moving things around for no apparent reason
[09:23] <Kamion> heno: also seems to me that the search problems could be addressed by cleverer searching that knew how to search multiple sites
[09:23] <Kamion> assuming they were both on the same machine, I guess
[09:23] <heno> and then it would be obvious what generation it was
[09:23] <Burgwork> Seveas, we can't agree on two wikis or one for the doc wiki
[09:23] <heno> we could do that anyway of course
[09:24] <heno> Kamion: the 'search problem' is that you get too many hits, not too few
[09:24] <Kamion> let's assume we had a separate "official documentation wiki". what would the process be for migrating a page somebody hacked together to the doc wiki?
[09:24] <Burgwork> Kamion, that is the part under contention
[09:24] <Kamion> heno: I'm referring to "users having to search more than one place" in BetterWikiDocs
[09:25] <heno> they would be encouraged to start it there in the first place
[09:25] <heno> (sounds unrealistic actually)
[09:25] <Seveas> heno, great, so another wiki filled with half-baked pages....
[09:25] <heno> that would clearly work better for devs
[09:25] <jjesse>  the "official" docs would have to be editable (if that's a word) by only wiki team members
[09:25] <Kamion> yeah, that doesn't sound overly plausible to me I must say
[09:25] <Burgwork> Seveas, I disagree
[09:25] <Kamion> jjesse: which will exclude a lot of contributors
[09:26] <robotgeek> jjesse: which kind beats the point of a wiki
[09:26] <Kamion> people start out editing a few pages of the wiki and *then* become wiki team members
[09:26] <Kamion> maybe
[09:26] <jjesse> but if the "official" docs are moved from the more generic docs 
[09:26] <mako> why don't we just have pages with categories
[09:26] <jjesse> then they can be better maintained
[09:26] <Seveas> mako++
[09:26] <mako> with articles marked as good
[09:26] <ompaul> well look at it as wiki --> docs so in the wiki it is a $factoid if it makes it to docs or there is a better existing doc then the wiki page gets a reference to the other page at the top and a log of visits but that is all too much for here 
[09:26] <Seveas> but then we need people who organize that 
[09:26] <mako> wikipedia has 1,000,000 articles
[09:26] <mako> or near that in english
[09:27] <Kamion> and most of the wikipedia articles I ever actually hit in practice are really good
[09:27] <Burgwork> mostly the good articles are marked by not having CategoryCleanup on them
[09:27] <mako> and it's prefectly readable because they have many categories
[09:27] <ompaul> what does wiki.ubuntu have in it?
[09:27] <mako> Kamion: yes, but they also have articles marked as "good" and "featured"
[09:27] <Burgwork> ompaul, everything, that is the problem
[09:27] <Kamion> mako: yeah
[09:27] <ompaul> Burgwork, no numbers
[09:27] <mako> Kamion: and if you limit your search to those, you'll get good stuff
[09:27] <mako> the point is, that there's no need to create seperate wikis
[09:27] <ompaul> Burgwork, if you measure it you can do something with it
[09:27] <heno> using categories doesn't solve the search problem
[09:27] <mako> you may really want EVERYTHING on a topic
[09:27] <Burgwork> we still have the issue of seperation of help content
[09:27] <mako> heno: it does if you can limit your search to within a particular category
[09:27] <Seveas> categories and 'good/bad/needs work' tags will help
[09:27] <Kamion> heno: it does if you make the search exclude CategoryCleanup by default
[09:27] <Kamion> e.g.
[09:28] <Burgwork> people simply don't go to wiki.ubuntu.com for help
[09:28] <heno> unless we improved the search to include/exclude certain pages
[09:28] <mako> Burgwork: what makes you think that having they'll go to the new split set of wikis then?
[09:28] <Burgwork> Kamion, but I want my searches to include it
[09:28] <jjesse> Burgwork: i disagree
[09:28] <Kamion> Burgwork: --> "by default" <--
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Burgwork: "default"
[09:28] <heno> right, but that requires development
[09:28] <Kyral> most of our "profile" pages also on are the Wiki yes?
[09:28] <jjesse> Burgwork: i start at w.u.c and then do a google search if i can't find it
[09:28] <mako> heno: that is precisely what i'm suggesting
[09:28] <lucas> I'd prefer to have a CategoryUserDoc rather than a CategoryCleanup (means pages would be out by default)
[09:28] <Kamion> heno: I don't think we can get away from that - it's not a trivial problem
[09:28] <Burgwork> Kamion, I was pointing out that there are two many use cases for the main wiki
[09:29] <Burgwork> s/two/too
[09:29] <heno> mako: I think that would be good
[09:29] <Seveas> Kyral, they (should) have "CategoryHomepage", easy to filter too
[09:29] <mako> the time necessary to have moin have a search that is restricted by categories is probably not significantly less than the time needed to maintain a farm of wikis
[09:29] <heno> but a separate spec perhaps
[09:29] <Kamion> Burgwork: dunno, I'm beginning to think that's a feature
[09:29] <Burgwork> Kamion, no it is not when you run across a spec when you want help
[09:29] <Kamion> Burgwork: that's a search problem
[09:29] <Mithrandir> mako: you'd want cross-wiki search, though.
[09:29] <mako> specs *should* be marked as specs
[09:29] <mako> and docs should be marked as docs
[09:29] <Burgwork> then we need to be ruthless about moving specs under a main spec page
[09:29] <mako> and there should be a prominent link to a doc only search
[09:30] <Burgwork> so that the link would be wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/Blah
[09:30] <mako> Burgwork: sure
[09:30] <jjesse> the doc team then should be the one always cleaning up the wiki or expected to keep the wiki clean
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: it's a feature that, when we have a new project that needs wiki pages, it can just start rather than having to get a new wiki domain set up
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: that would be fine
[09:30] <heno> splitting it up also helps solve the scaling problem though
[09:30] <mako> Burgwork: we'd have be ruthless about moving them off the wiki in the alternative situation
[09:30] <Burgwork> still ooks like a hack to me
[09:30] <Kamion> we'd have to go through and fix up links from launchpad
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: it's what categories are FOR. :-)
[09:30] <mako> well, why not in-text categories
[09:30] <mako> like WP
[09:30] <heno> which is that the wiki will eventually outgrow the hardware
[09:31] <mako> we could just have a {{spec}} tag or something
[09:31] <heno> elmo: ^ ?
[09:31] <Kamion> heno: I don't think developer specifications are going to be the cause of that
[09:31] <Burgwork> Kamion, yes, but what does a CategoryNetworking do on the main wiki? specs? docs?
[09:31] <mako> the way they're implemented doesn't really matter
[09:31] <Burgwork> do you see the issue?
[09:31] <Kamion> Burgwork: no
[09:31] <Kamion> Burgwork: perhaps you could explain better?
[09:31] <mako> Burgwork: both
[09:31] <Burgwork> mako, that is much much worse
[09:31] <mako> Burgwork: you can belong to CategoryNetworking and CategorySpec
[09:31] <robotgeek> i am sure the search can be hacked to exclude specs, provided they are all in one Category
[09:32] <elmo> heno: I don't think that's a good reason _by itself_ to split stuff up, we've plenty of avenues to explore to scale stuff up before going there
[09:32] <Burgwork> but then those that want to search specs are screwed
[09:32] <Kamion> I don't see a lot of value of a spec having any other category
[09:32] <robotgeek> with an option to search advanced?
[09:32] <heno> elmo: ok, thanks
[09:32] <Burgwork> I do
[09:32] <Kamion> there aren't enough of them for that, and they're generally clearly named
[09:32] <ompaul> search should not discriminate
[09:32] <mako> alright
[09:32] <Burgwork> I want to see all networkign specs
[09:32] <mako> Kamion: ok
[09:32] <Burgwork> another major issue is time by doc team members cleaning non-dcos on the wiki
[09:32] <Burgwork> I have easily spent 20 plus hours doing so
[09:32] <Kamion> specs are the responsibility of the development team
[09:33] <Burgwork> if the wiki was split, I wouldn't have to do any of those
[09:33] <mako> Burgwork: you're trading a complex searching problem for a fragmentation problem
[09:33] <Kamion> the wiki team should feel free to punt those to us
[09:33] <Kamion> you don't have to do them *now* - you can tell development to sort it out
[09:33] <mdke_> evening, sorry for lateness
[09:33] <Kamion> if everyone does their own specs it doesn't take long to do whatever it is
[09:33] <Burgwork> realistically, that is not an option
[09:33] <Kamion> why not?
[09:34] <Kamion> well, s/tell/ask/, but anyway
[09:34] <Burgwork> because often the development team does page editing/moving/creation without a holistic view
[09:34] <Burgwork> and that is not their fault
[09:34] <Madpilot> hi everyone
[09:34] <Kamion> you can have the holistic view and ask other people to do the actual shuffling of their own specs
[09:34] <Burgwork> ie, they create a page that causes the doc team grief, without even knowing about it
[09:34] <Kamion> if you take work on yourself, you can't blame other people for you doing all the work :)
[09:35] <Kamion> the doc team has, to my knowledge, never communicated those issues to the development team
[09:35] <Burgwork> yes, I have not done so
[09:35] <Kamion> I suggest doing so :)
[09:35] <Kamion> then it will be less likely to be a problem in future
[09:35] <Burgwork> there is another problem, that of recent changes
[09:35] <mako> Burgwork: some of these problems can be solved with education :)
[09:35] <mako> don't use a technical solution to a social problem
[09:36] <Kamion> RecentChanges is mostly used by wiki contributors, I'm guessing
[09:36] <Burgwork> it is currently very difficult to seperate docs out from non-docs when looking at what has changed. Which means a person realisitically has to look at all changes
[09:36] <Kamion> now that sounds like something amenable to a technical solution ...
[09:36] <Mithrandir> enhance the recentchanges page by putting the category there too, then.
[09:36] <mako> Burgwork: what about it?
[09:37] <Burgwork> mediawiki is designed for presentation wikis, ala documentation and encyclopedias
[09:37] <sorush20> where is the adgenda
[09:37] <mdke> is this a general discussion of the BetterWikiDocs spec?
[09:37] <mako> sorush20: in the topic
[09:37] <HiddenWolf> It is hard to differentiate docs from non-docs. Good docs from bad docs, and doc's don't have a mandatory "applies to $version" thing, so it is trial and error to figure out if it'll work a lot of the time.
[09:37] <Burgwork> clear seperation of talk and article, watchlists, internal wiki communication
[09:37] <heno> mdke: I emailed you a transcript so far
[09:37] <mako> HiddenWolf: the docteam can tag docs as "notable" if you'd like
[09:38] <mako> or with version information
[09:38] <Burgwork> for instance, if someone edits a page in our wiki, I have no way of communicating with them without knowing their email
[09:38] <mdke> heno, ok thanks
[09:38] <mako> Burgwork: what is the MW funcionatliy you are missing here?
[09:38] <mako> Burgwork: talk pages?
[09:38] <ompaul> sorush20,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[09:38] <Burgwork> mako, internal wiki communication via user talk pages
[09:39] <HiddenWolf> mako: I'm not much of a guru on the wiki, but a good way to seperate good docs from bad docs and figure out if it'll work on your version would really help.
[09:39] <Burgwork> mako, some of which can be hacked into our wiki, but some cannot easily
[09:39] <heno> Burgwork: it should be fairly easy to set up better provision for talk pages
[09:39] <Madpilot> HiddenWolf: the versioning thing is a writing problem, not as much a technical issue, AFAIK
[09:39] <mdke> heno, ok, looks like discussion has just spiralled out off topic :(
[09:39] <mako> Burgwork: so *user* talk pages
[09:39] <heno> we could even use the comment macro
[09:40] <sorush20> who is the meeting leader? 
[09:40] <mako> Burgwork: i've never found user talk pages hugely useful in WP personally
[09:40] <Burgwork> mako, heno, Kamion lets move on
[09:40] <mako> sorush20: myself, kamion and elmo are the council members
[09:40] <Burgwork> heno, can you and I chat about what I would like out of our wiki after the meeting?
[09:40] <Burgwork> mako, Kamion this spec needs further work before being brough back before the CC
[09:41] <Kamion> yeah, I agree
[09:41] <Seveas> This is going way beyond CC territory... 
[09:41] <Mithrandir> Burgwork: I have no idea how the mediawiki thingy works, but I know that if you tried to communicate with me through editing some wiki page, you'd fail, unless it gets sent to me by email or tells me on IRC.  How does the usertalk thingy work in mediawiki?
[09:41] <Kamion> it would be nice if we could be presented with a decision to make, more than an open-ended discussion :)
[09:41] <heno> Burgwork: sure, but perhaps we should do it on a mailing list so others can participate
[09:41] <mdke> Kamion, the topic was about the server
[09:41] <Kamion> true
[09:41] <mako> FWIW, it's an interesting discussion :)
[09:41] <Burgwork> heno, ok
[09:41] <Kamion> elmo: can you answer that much (unless you did so already and I missed it) and we can move on?
[09:42] <Kamion> as in, assuming it were determined to be worthwhile
[09:42] <mdke> :-(
[09:42] <sorush20> have you decied to have more ops in the ubuntu channels? 
[09:42] <elmo> phone, brb
[09:42] <Seveas> sorush20, yes, that has been earlier on the agenda
[09:43] <Seveas> ok, let's move on then, elmo can answer when whe gets back :-)
[09:43] <Seveas> robotgeek, tepsipakki and Hobbsee are the new member candidates
[09:43] <Seveas> robotgeek, give us your 3-line summary please
[09:43] <mako> brilliant
[09:43] <robotgeek> I am VenkatRaghavan. I currently live in New Jersey (moved from Texas 2 days ago!), though originally from Hyderabad, India. Been using Ubuntu since the Hoary release. Yes, I dumped OS X for Ubuntu!
[09:44] <robotgeek> I am a member of NewUserMentors, WikiTeam and the Kubuntu Team. I have done lot of irc support in the past (sometimes more than 10 hours a day!), and in the recent months started getting involved in the Documentation work. More details on my wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
[09:44] <robotgeek> In the immediate future, I want to make sure Kubuntu Desktop Guide is complete in time for Dapper. I also want to more involve myself more in the Documentation Team activities. Since I am an Engineer by profession, I want to improve my packaging skills so that I may package to help the Motu Science Team.   
[09:44] <robotgeek> :)
[09:44] <jjesse> robotgeek has been working hard and doing a great job on the kubuntu desktop guide
[09:44] <Seveas> robotgeek gets several \o/ from me for IRC work
[09:44] <jjesse> he's picked up a project that was sitting still
[09:44] <Seveas> he's very active
[09:44] <jpatrick> Seveas: ++
[09:44] <mdke> robotgeek is already a great member of the documentation team, he's contributed loads of wiki pages and good documentation, as jjesse says
[09:44] <nalioth> robotgeek is quite helpful on the irc channels
[09:45] <robotgeek> wow
[09:45] <mako> yeah, wow
[09:45] <Kyral> basically if you say no, you have a lot of angry people now ;P
[09:45] <Madpilot> robotgeek: the whole cheering section has come out :P
[09:45] <sorush20> robotgeek: has helped me too alot
[09:46] <Hobbsee> hehe doesnt seem like i need to say anything
[09:46] <Riddell> I support robotgeek, he's doing good work on the kubuntu desktop guide
[09:46] <jpatrick> I've seen him a lot on irc
[09:46] <Kyral> He's helpful in #ubuntu, he has done good work with EasyUbuntu
[09:47] <Kyral> and he's kept me from losing it a couple ttimes (big job lol)
[09:47] <ompaul> his other work has saved me and others plenty of man hours
[09:47] <ompaul> s/man/person/
[09:47] <ompaul> forgive the aged 
[09:48] <manicka> his work on the new wifi wiki page is outstanding
[09:48] <Kamion> looks like sustained contribution to me and there seems to be a fair bit of wiki work there
[09:48] <Seveas> robotgeek, probably mako, Kamion and elmo are now reading your wikipage, LP profile etc 
[09:48] <Kamion> robotgeek: what's happening with EasyUbuntu at the moment?
[09:49] <LaserJock> robotgeek is active in the docteam and has also expressed interest in doing some packaging for MOTU Science
[09:49] <Kyral> LaserJock: he has? *blink*
[09:49] <robotgeek> Kamion: fixing a few remaining bugs, i'm quite new to python
[09:49] <Kyral> yah you guys are still waiting for me to package it no? :/
[09:49] <sorush20> meetings are not as fast as I would expect them to be
[09:49] <mako> agreed
[09:50] <Kamion> robotgeek: well, I'm more asking what the current state is from the perspective of somebody who knows nothing about it
[09:50] <LaserJock> sorry, got some lag :(
[09:50] <mako> looks good so far
[09:50] <Kamion> last I heard was when the automatix/forums stuff came up here
[09:50] <Kamion> which probably wasn't the best advert :)
[09:50] <robotgeek> Kamion: it works well, it needs to be packaged in a deb format. Kyral is helping
[09:51] <mako> yeah, this is good stuff
[09:51] <Seveas> Kamion, easyubuntu is nothing like automatix fortunatel
[09:51] <mako> robotgeek: how long have you been involved?
[09:51] <robotgeek> mako: for about 5+ months now
[09:51] <nalioth> Kamion: robotgeek was involved in easybreezy, a fork of automatix. the project has since merged back with easyubuntu (the original)
[09:51] <mako> great
[09:51] <mako> well, i'm happy with membership
[09:51] <sorush20> I find automatix to work better than easy ubuntu..
[09:51] <Seveas> sorush20, -ETOPIC
[09:51] <Kyral> haha, beat me to it Seveas
[09:52] <_jason> wait, I can say robotgeek is awesome too :)  He's always on irc and working hard on easyubuntu
[09:52] <Kamion> sorush20: ... this is why meetings take ages
[09:52] <robotgeek> thanks _jason :)
[09:52] <Kamion> I'm also happy with membership
[09:53] <Seveas> did elmo return already?
[09:54] <Seveas> if not, should we move on and let him catch up later?
[09:54] <elmo> sorry, back
[09:54] <Seveas> ah, cool
[09:54] <elmo> move on, I'll catch up
[09:54] <Seveas> ok
[09:54] <Seveas> next up: tepsipakki 
[09:55] <Seveas> idle tim 40 minutes, so he could be around
[09:55] <Seveas> ah 
[09:55] <tepsipakki> let me get organized ;)
[09:55] <tepsipakki> I'm an UNIX administrator working part time for the Computing Centre of Helsinki University of Technology in Finland. Current work involves administering 200+ Linux (Debian Sarge atm) workstations and some Tru64-UNIX servers. When not working, I'm trying to finish my master's degree (major: semiconductors and materials of electronics).
[09:55] <tepsipakki> Interests include GNOME, NFSv4, installer, sysadmin tools etc. I've made some patches here and there, most of it is documented on my wikipage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
[09:55] <Kamion> I've been working off and on with tepsipakki on various automatic installation issues for some time
[09:56] <Kamion> he's more willing than most to dive in and get his hands dirty, and has been very useful at nagging me to follow up on things
[09:56] <Kyral> Jeez, where were you guys when I was installing Ubuntu on 20 lab computers...
[09:56] <Kyral> ;P
[09:56] <tepsipakki> =)
[09:56] <tepsipakki> I have a system that only needs to be documented somewhere
[09:56] <Hobbsee> Kyral: off at the pub, why do you ask? :P
[09:56] <Seveas> Hobbsee, Kyral: please stick to the topic
[09:56] <Kyral> sorry...
[09:56] <Hobbsee> sorry
[09:57] <Kamion> ... so I'm more than happy with tepsipakki for membership
[09:57] <mako> yes.. tepsipakki is great by me
[09:57] <Kamion> tepsipakki: (incidentally lamont's looking at getting NFSv4 support into mount, and we may get it in before feature freeze with any luck)
[09:58] <elmo> ack robotgeek
[09:58] <mdke> well done robotgeek 
[09:58] <Seveas> elmo, thanks
[09:58] <tepsipakki> Kamion: yes, I just received info that a new version of util-linux is in sid now
[09:58] <Seveas> welcome robotgeek!
[09:58] <robotgeek> thanks all!
[09:58] <elmo> WRT server, heno can always have a server if he asks for it, but given this isn't exactly uncontentious, I'd like some higher power sign in before any migration off of the main wiki happens
[09:58] <irvin> congrats robotgeek... it's about time ;-)
[09:58] <jpatrick> congrats robotgeek 
[09:58] <robotgeek> Riddell: that was fast :)
[09:59] <elmo> ack tepsipakki too
[09:59] <mdke> well done tepsipakki 
[09:59] <Kyral> welldone :D
[09:59] <elmo> (tho I'm somewhat disappointed you're not the dovecot author.  same firstname and nationality.  close.  but not.)
[09:59] <lamont> Kamion: nfsv4 change was uploaded to debian just after dinstall today, should be syncable tomorrow
[09:59] <Seveas> welcome abourd tepsipakki 
[09:59] <tepsipakki> gee, thanks! <blush>
[10:00] <Seveas> (you got approved really fast, amazing!)
[10:00] <Seveas> last candidate: Hobbsee (Sarah Hobbs)
[10:00] <Hobbsee> hey
[10:00] <Seveas> Hobbsee, please give us the 3-liner
[10:00] <Hobbsee> I am Sarah Hobbs, a university student in Sydney, Australia, doing a Bachelor of Technology in Optoelectronics. I've been using linux since june 2005, first Ubuntu, and then Kubuntu from that time onwards, usually running a tripple boot machine of XP, kubuntu breezy and kubuntu dapper.
[10:00] <Hobbsee> I'm a member of the kubuntu team, am involved in moderating and providing support in IRC, and involved in bug writing/fixing and some packaging.  My Wiki Page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hobbsee
[10:00] <Hobbsee> In the future, I want to learn more about packaging, so I can contribute more to the ubuntu community, in particular the kubuntu section, and possibly the MOTU-science section as well.  I also want to continue on with the IRC support.
[10:00] <Hobbsee> darn copy key doesnt work as fast as i'd like it to :P
[10:01] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I hope to see you in the MOTU team soon! :)
[10:01] <nalioth> Hobbsee: is quite knowledgable and helpful to many in irc
[10:01] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i hope so too!
[10:02] <Riddell> I support Hobbsee's membership, she's done some good bug work and #kubuntu operator
[10:02] <mako> Hobbsee: how long have you been contributing?
[10:02] <Kamion> ah, so you're part of the reason the kubuntu team manage to get Flight CDs tested so quickly :)
[10:02] <elmo> Kamion: stop trying to deflect the blame for the bandwidth damage
[10:03] <Hobbsee> mako: on irc, since around...*thinks* - probably a couple of months before breezy was released
[10:03] <elmo> ;P
[10:03] <Hobbsee> and packaging only in the last couple of months
[10:04] <Riddell> she first appeared on #kubuntu-devel 2005-10-08, was on #kubuntu few a few months before that
[10:04] <sorush20> I don't think hobbsee has done as much as the other two members.. 
[10:04] <Seveas> sorush20, that's irrelevant
[10:04] <Kamion> that does seem to be true, but OTOH it looks like fairly good going
[10:05] <mako> the criteria is significant and sustained
[10:05] <mako> contributins.. different people have different amounts of time to give
[10:05] <Kamion> and packaging work is valuable
[10:05] <elmo> "sudo cp -i --reply=no"  *boggle*
[10:05] <elmo> what's the point of that, JOOI?@
[10:06] <Kamion> elmo: where's that?
[10:06] <Kyral> .....elmo, mischan?
[10:06] <sistpoty> Hobbsee has some packages on revu, and iirc, what I've seen in packaging is promising... and Hobbsee is often around in -motu
[10:06] <LaserJoc1> sistpoty++
[10:06] <jpatrick> Hobbsee has a good bug buster too
[10:07] <jpatrick> I think she has a record for Kubuntu bugs
[10:08] <elmo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion
[10:08] <Seveas> Hobbsee, be patient 
[10:08] <elmo> no idea if Hobbsee added that, it just jumped out at me
[10:09] <Hobbsee> elmo: i did some work on that page a while ago - i havent recently, because i havent been usign that version of firefox, using 1.5 on dapper from the repositories
[10:09] <Hobbsee> s/usign/using
[10:09] <Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
[10:09] <sorush20> I think she should be allowed to be a member.. 
[10:09] <elmo> wow there are some interesting usernames in the wiki
[10:09] <Kamion> elmo: the one I suspect you're looking at is a troll
[10:10] <mako> Kamion: ?
[10:10] <Kyral> check the changes log
[10:10] <Kamion> mako: one "Niggerplease" editing FirefoxNewVersion
[10:10] <sorush20> Hobbsee: how are you aiming to contribute to the opensource world after your degree? 
[10:10] <mako> just found it
[10:11] <mako> alright, i
[10:11] <Riddell> sorush20: ? she's only about to start...
[10:11] <mako> i'm happy with Hobbsee for membership
[10:11] <Seveas> that's one down, two to go 
[10:11] <Hobbsee> sorush20: probably doing some more packages, more IRC - basically continuing what i've already started
[10:11] <elmo> ack
[10:12] <sorush20> I have noticed that there are a lot of howto's been done on wifi by all the new members.. 
[10:12] <Kamion> oh, is anyone processing the launchpad tweaking for new members?
[10:12] <Kamion> if not I'll do it
[10:12] <Seveas> sorush20, tbh: that is bad news, it means wireless is still difficult
[10:13] <mako> Kamion: i'll do it
[10:13] <Kamion> mako: thanks
[10:13] <Seveas> Kamion, what's your 'verdict' about Hobbsee?
[10:13] <Hobbsee> Seveas: indeed it is - that's one thing i'd love to change
[10:13] <sorush20> maybe the three new members should network together to make one unified document.. to make things less confusing.. 
[10:13] <Kamion> Seveas: 21:09 < Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
[10:13] <Seveas> Hobbsee, contribute to NetworkManager then
[10:13] <Kamion> that's an ack if it wasn't clear
[10:13] <Seveas> Kamion, it is, I just missed it
[10:13] <Seveas> Hobbsee, welcome aboard!
[10:14] <Hobbsee> thankyou so much!
[10:14] <nalioth> Hobbsee: robotgeek: welcome!
[10:14] <Hobbsee> :D
[10:14] <Kamion> Hobbsee: (do test out network-manager in dapper and see if it works for you, if you haven't already)
[10:14] <LaserJoc1> congrats Hobbsee 
[10:14] <Kamion> (and others)
[10:14] <Seveas> nalioth, don't forget tepsipakki 
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Kamion: will do, but i use kde
[10:14] <nalioth> tepsipakki: welcome to the next level
[10:14] <dholbach> welcome Hobbsee, robotgeek and tepsipakki
[10:14] <Kamion> ah, there's a kde equivalent I believe but I don't know the name
[10:14] <Riddell> knetworkmanager :)
[10:14] <sorush20> Hobbsee: we need more women in Ubuntu
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Kamion: knetworkmanager, from cvs, which i havent figured out yet
[10:14] <Riddell> (but it requires a CVS netwok-manager)
[10:14] <Kamion> OK. Any other business?
[10:15] <Seveas> Time and date of next meeting
[10:15] <Kamion> propose 12:00 two weeks time
[10:15] <Kyral> as always...
[10:15] <Seveas> please decide now instead of one-day notice 
[10:15] <Kamion> UTC
[10:15] <Seveas> fine to me
[10:15] <tepsipakki> Hobbsee: congrats, and good luck with your studies (I've done some microfabrication courses :)
[10:15] <Kyral> ....ick...thats like 0700 my time
[10:15] <elmo> that's middle of the UI sprint
[10:15] <Kyral> oh well
[10:15] <mako> wait..
[10:15] <Seveas> will sabdfl be available?
[10:15] <elmo> dunno who's going to it
[10:15] <mako> let me check that time
[10:15] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: thankyou, you too :)
[10:15] <tepsipakki> robotgeek: congrats to you too :)
[10:15] <mako> that should be fine
[10:15] <robotgeek> thanks tepsipakki ! you too!
[10:16] <Kamion> oh, bloody UI sprint - I'm scheduled to go to it, yes
[10:16] <tepsipakki> and once more thanks to all!
[10:16] <mako> robotgeek, tepsipakki, Hobbsee: i've approved your membership in LP
[10:16] <Kamion> if you can do it without me that week that would be good
[10:16] <Hobbsee> mako: thankyou!
[10:16] <elmo> Kamion: sabdfl will be there too ...
[10:16] <robotgeek> thanks mako 
[10:16] <elmo> (won't he?)
[10:16] <tepsipakki> mako: rock!
[10:16] <Kamion> hmm, guess he would want to be
[10:16] <mako> it's been a few meetings
[10:16] <mako> with all the traveling
[10:16] <Seveas> indeed
[10:16] <Kamion> we could force minions to deliver us lunch
[10:16] <mako> quick, while he's aweay
[10:17] <Kyral> lol
[10:17] <mako> lets pass some outrageous new rule
[10:17] <Seveas> he wants to bring up the complaint about #ubuntu - has anybody already heard more about that? mako/kamion?
[10:17] <Kamion> ok, I'll send mail to community-council@ proposing that time and let him respond
[10:17] <elmo> mako: how about we depose him?
[10:17] <Kyral> lol
[10:17] <mako> elmo: if he never comes to meetings, that's hardly necessary ;)
[10:17] <Kyral> All Members get $1 a day pay from Canonical lol
[10:17] <Kamion> we'll make it provisionally 1200 on 7 March until then
[10:17] <jpatrick> cool
[10:18] <mako> Kamion: good
[10:18] <Kamion> Seveas: not apart from that mail chain
[10:18] <nalioth> Kyral: is that retroactice to date of membership?  :P
[10:18] <Kyral> lol
[10:18] <mako> elmo: and plus, i definitely don't want his job :)
[10:18] <Seveas> Kamion, ok, neither have I apart from some supicions from the community
[10:18] <Kyral> what complaint against #ubuntu btw?
[10:19] <sorush20> Kyral really? 
[10:19] <Seveas> Kyral, it'll come up at the next meeting
[10:19] <mako> i'll leave him to suits and press releases and the pretty girls in karaoke bars
[10:19] <Kyral> Seveas: okay
[10:19] <Kamion> Kyral: alleged overenthusiasm about banning people for mention of automatix
[10:19] <Seveas> mako, pubcon!
[10:19] <Kyral> oyy....that is annoying
[10:19] <sorush20> Kyral: is that USD? 
[10:19] <mako> yes..
[10:19] <Kamion> ok, sounds like we're done here
[10:19] <Kamion> going
[10:19] <mako> i'd (wishfully perhaps) assumed that was dealt with
[10:19] <Kamion> going
[10:19] <Kamion> gone
[10:19] <mako> yeah, i should work too
[10:20] <mako> paper deadline in <11hours
[10:20] <mako> need to pretend i'm an academic
[10:20] <Kamion> mako: sadly I think probably not, we'll find out now+2weeks then?
[10:20] <Kyral> mako: I suspect it will turn into something like the Emacs vs. Vi Holy War
[10:20] <mako> Kyral: i don't think so
[10:20] <mako> because the issue is not whether the software is any good
[10:20] <mako> it's completely inconsequential
[10:20] <mako> but anywya
[10:20] <Kyral> yah
[10:20] <mako> lets not have that conversation now
[10:20] <Kyral> sorry for mentioning
[10:21] <mako> my fault too :)
[10:21] <Seveas> see you all next time!
[10:21] <mako> thanks everyone for coming
[10:21] <ompaul> cheers
[10:21] <nalioth> y'all be safe
[10:21] <Kamion> ok, Mark has mail
[10:22] <Kamion> FWIW community-council@lists.ubuntu.com now exists as a contact address for the CC members
[10:22] <Kyral> Now can I mention that DW Article about Mark? :P
[10:22] <Kamion> please don't overuse it :-)
[10:22] <Kamion> but its archives are private so it's suitable e.g. for private mails about disputes and that sort of thing if need be
[10:22] <Seveas> Expect this weeks summary in your mailbox later today or tomorrow (depending on timezone and lazyness of myself)
[10:22] <mako> "community-council@ubuntu.com: use it, don't abuse it"
[10:23] <mako> sorry, "community-council@lists.ubuntu.com: use it, don't abuse it"
[10:23] <Kyral> I forgot it existed lol
[10:23] <mako> well, it didn't
[10:23] <mako> until yesterday
[10:23] <Kyral> I meant I will never use it ;P
[10:23] <mako> well you should use it
[10:23] <mako> just not abuse it
[10:23] <mako> alright
[10:23] <mako> this is inane
[10:23] <mako> i'm off
[10:23] <Kyral> yah
[10:23] <mako> thanks all
[10:23] <Kamion> Kyral: DW> feel free
[10:24] <Kyral> I was just wondering if anyone read it