[12:51] <Kyral> LaserJock: do you know of any good general purpose chem programs (for like quickly calculating the molecular weight of something)
[12:51] <LaserJock> easychem?
[12:51] <Kyral> ..EasyChem doesn't do that
[12:51] <LaserJock> bummer, I thought I'd make you do a "Kyral falls down" ;-)
[12:52] <Kyral> I'll just calc it manually
[12:52] <LaserJock> umm, I think perhaps xdrawchem or chemtool
[12:53] <LaserJock> I don't have my dapper box on me so I can't remember which one exactly. Both might do it.
[01:01] <Kyral> I wonder if anyone finds it ironic that I was kicked out of the place I was studying Chem by my Chem TA
[01:13] <LaserJock> I'd kick you out too ;-)
[01:16] <Kyral> ....
[01:16] <Kyral> baka
[02:16] <LaserJock> any body who wrote the Makefiles or scripts for the docteam repo around?
[02:38] <LaserJock> hi KingBahamut
[02:40] <KingBahamut> LaserJock, 
[02:41] <KingBahamut> how goes it?
[02:50] <LaserJock> KingBahamut: it's going. way too much to do and not enough time to do it in :-) How bout yourself? I suppose the forums keep you busy.
[03:15] <LaserJock> hi robotgeek jsgotangco and mhz
[03:15] <mhz> hi LaserJock 
[03:16] <jsgotangco> morning
[03:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi you ppls
[03:34] <robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
[03:47] <robotgeek> i should probably document this in breezy, so later all. 
[04:13] <Madpilot> hi all
[04:17] <Burglaptop> hello Madpilot jsgotangco
[04:18] <LaserJock> hi Burglaptop
[04:18] <LaserJock> hi Madpilot
[04:19] <jsgotangco> hi all
[04:21] <Burglaptop> geez our new logout dialog looks out of place
[04:21] <Burglaptop> http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/JPEG/Logout_dialog.png
[04:21] <Burglaptop> compare the lockscreen one with everything else
[04:22] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:23] <Burglaptop> however, they don't look out of place with tango, which is to green/blue for me
[04:25] <Burglaptop> tango's icon for their locale is a US and German flag
[04:38] <mpt> You know the problem with that dialog?
[04:39] <mpt> It's not big enough
[04:39] <mpt> It should be full-screen
[04:39] <mpt> and if you use a dual-headed setup, it should use both screens
[04:39] <Madpilot> mpt: gah, I was just thinking that it sprawls a bit too much as it is...
[04:40] <Madpilot> heh... <rude noise> :P
[04:41] <LaserJock> mpt: no, I think you should have to scroll to see all the buttons ;-p
[04:41] <mpt> oooh yeah
[04:41] <mpt> a scrolling list!
[04:41] <mpt> Or even better, a menu that you have to open to see the options!
[04:42] <mpt> Windows 2000 did that, so it must be right!
[04:42] <HrdwrBoB> also, insist on having ashutdown reason
[04:42] <HrdwrBoB> but don't expose that information anywhere logical
[04:42] <mpt> (what WERE Microsoft thinking)
[04:44] <LaserJock> I think that each time it is opened that the buttons should be randomly placed without text
[04:45] <Madpilot> LaserJock: best suggestion yet!
[04:45] <Madpilot> we could randomly switch icon themes too, so the icons are randomized as well
[04:45] <mpt> ooh, randomized buttons, like WinZip
[04:45] <Burglaptop> mpt: the problem with full screen is the amount of mouse movement needed
[04:45] <Burglaptop> but corners could be interesting
[04:45] <LaserJock> man, if only the docteam was in charge. Dapper would be AWESOME!
[04:45] <HrdwrBoB> Burglaptop: you could hook it to the mouse properties
[04:46] <Burglaptop> HrdwrBoB: huh?
[04:46] <HrdwrBoB> and increas sensitivity when the shutdown dialog was acticated
[04:46] <Burglaptop> ugh
[04:46] <HrdwrBoB> *activated
[04:46] <Burglaptop> the amount of mouse movement needed in gnome has really come to head recently, as my touchpad is borked
[04:46] <Madpilot> <slightly more seriously> Is Tango going to be default icon theme for dapper, or is it still Human?
[04:46] <Burglaptop> Madpilot: human, afaik
[04:46] <LaserJock> or just have each button mapped to a mouse button. left click restarts, right click shutsdown :-)
[04:47] <Burglaptop> however, apparently mark is paying somebody to do professional art for this release
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> the cure for that is to never use a touchpad
[04:48] <Burglaptop> sadly a mouse doesn't work when you sitting on a couch
[04:48] <HrdwrBoB> Burglaptop: yeah, trackpoint :)
[04:48] <Madpilot> cool - I switched this Breezy install over to Tango a few days ago, and it's... odd... plus, being incomplete, a lot of the icons are still Human's anyway...
[05:00] <LaserJock> have you guys tried Flight4 yet?
[05:00] <Burglaptop> not yet
[05:00] <Madpilot> I'm burning a LiveCD as we speak, actually
[05:00] <Madpilot> ...and peering the LiveCD torrent, too
[05:01] <LaserJock> hmmm, I'm impatiently waiting for the install iso to download. Does the LIveCD have espresso on it?
[05:02] <Burglaptop> yes
[05:02] <LaserJock> I think I just figured out how to get Ubuntu on my iMac. There is a program called Q which a cocoa port of qemu and it has a universal binary!
[05:03] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: but the install cd is still the same? I thought they were going to just have 1 cd.
[05:03] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: the install cd is still teh same
[05:04] <Burglaptop> they are only going to ship and promote the live cd
[05:04] <LaserJock> I see so will dapper+1 not have the install cd at all?
[05:04] <Madpilot> hmm, LiveCD finished burning - I'll eat, then mess with Dapper
[05:04] <Burglaptop> no, the install cd will always be there
[05:05] <LaserJock> ok
[05:05] <Burglaptop> there are lots of use cases for it, but it won't be promoted
[05:05] <LaserJock> I wonder if this qemu on OSX is worth a place somewhere on the wiki, if it isn't there already?
[05:05] <Burglaptop> if you got to download and install Ubuntu, by default you will get the live cd
[05:05] <Burglaptop> go for it
[05:06] <Madpilot> There isn't a lot of Ubuntu-on-PPC stuff anywhere, on the wiki or in our docs
[05:07] <LaserJock> Madpilot: well it's actually Ubuntu-on-macintel which is more important at the moment since you can't install Ubuntu on them
[05:07] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: you have a macintel?
[05:07] <LaserJock> yes
[05:07] <Burglaptop> bastard
[05:07] <Burglaptop> ;)
[05:07] <LaserJock> my boss just bought 2 17" iMacs
[05:08] <LaserJock> I told him I wanted an AMD64 box but he insisted
[05:09] <LaserJock> he used to be hard core linux (emacs +fvwm were his main apps) but OSX has won him over. Now we have 4 iMacs in the lab.
[05:11] <crimsun> it's very easy to slip and fall prey to the dark side
[05:12] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm more productive on the mac I think, unfortunately.
[05:12] <LaserJock> I'm very irritated at how much software for OSX can cost
[05:13] <LaserJock> but if darwin ports gets working for the intels then I can get most of my linuxy apps that I'm used to
[05:14] <LaserJock> I find OSX to be a lot more linux friendly than Windows though, which is nice. I can still do most of my work in a terminal.
[05:15] <crimsun> ah, they're both friendly from my perspective. Just gimme a fullscreen terminal and ssh client, and I'm off.
[05:18] <LaserJock> but OSX has an X server, python, lots of *nix commands, etc already in it. PuTTY is pretty cool though.
[05:18] <crimsun> yep, which is why it's a short slide down to the dark side
[05:20] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, as long as I have to pay for it I'll probably not get a Mac. It still seems overpriced for the hardware.
[05:22] <Burglaptop> mpt: can said you would help us with the BetterWikiDocs spec?
[06:08] <mpt> Burglaptop, yes
[06:08] <mpt> not during work hours, though :-)
[06:11] <Burglaptop> mpt: when is non-work hours for you?
[06:11] <Burglaptop> that you are awake and available, that is
[06:14] <mpt> in about four hours
[06:15] <Burglaptop> what time is it there?
[06:16] <Burglaptop> mpt: ^
[06:17] <mpt> 18:17
[06:23] <jsgotangco> he at least OSX has emacs built in
[06:28] <mpt> and Aquamacs is pretty nifty
[06:51] <EricNeon> hi
[07:07] <mpt> ho
[07:30] <Burglaptop> mpt: what about tomorrow morning? That is during work for me
[07:30] <mpt> What is during work, and is that good or bad?
[07:32] <Burglaptop> mpt: during work is 9-5 and I can take a few moments off during lunch
[07:32] <Burglaptop> 6-3pm, your time
[07:33] <mpt> Tomorrow morning I'm out rock climbing or something, sorry
[09:47] <jsgotangco> what's the hugging about?
[09:58] <mpt> jsgotangco, if #ubuntu-desktop can be fill of hugs, #ubuntu-doc can too :-)
[09:58] <jsgotangco> good idea
[09:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[09:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
[10:00] <mpt> yay, group hugs
[10:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> woot
[10:00] <jsgotangco> as long as its not grope hug
[10:00] <jsgotangco> :)
[10:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol :) depends whos involved ;)
[10:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. probablyu not CoC that comment, sorry :/
[10:02] <mpt> That is so backwards
[10:02] <mpt> Docbook is just XML
 just xml?
[10:03] <mpt> XML is easy
[10:03] <mpt> <foo bar="hum"><smeg/></foo>
[10:03] <mpt> That's all you need to know
[10:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> um. that's easy. none of the docbook i looked at looks that easy o_0
[10:04] <jsgotangco> its just descripting tags
[10:05] <jsgotangco> its meant to be readable
[10:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> so ... hm. *thinks about that for a bit*



[10:07] <bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser: visit http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/ for details
[10:07] <Kamping_Kaiser> looking
[10:10] <mdke> just copy the existing stuff in the docs
[10:10] <mdke> that's what I always do :)
[10:10] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol mdke :)
[10:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> wonder where i can get that docbook stuff in printed form.
[10:11] <jsgotangco> Docbook the Definitive Guide (O'Reiley)
[10:13] <mdke> that's online and on paper, good stuff
[10:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> oh o_0 yelp opens stuff. didnt do that last time i tried
[10:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. *goes to have a hack*
[10:33] <Madpilot> hi all - just spent several hours poking around the Flight4 LiveCD - very cool stuff!
[10:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi Madpilot
[10:35] <Madpilot> hi Kamping_Kaiser
[10:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> :) 
[10:36] <jsgotangco> did espresso work?
[10:36] <Madpilot> didn't try the installer, actually.
[10:36] <jsgotangco> bah that's not testing
[10:36] <jsgotangco> :)
[10:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[10:36] <Madpilot> just messed with xchat-gnome - which didn't impress me all that much - and a few other things
[10:37] <jsgotangco> well actually
[10:37] <Madpilot> Alacarte allows editing of all the menus, not just the Applications one
[10:37] <jsgotangco> xchat-gnoe is an acquired taste so it seems
[10:37] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, i didnt even notice that
[10:38] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: that's pretty much the reason I tried Flight4 - so someone can write a "How to edit menus" section for UDG
[10:39] <jsgotangco> oohhhh
[10:40] <Madpilot> but some of the other new shininess is pretty cool
[10:40] <Madpilot> I'm still surprised at how FAST the Dapper LiveCD is - but the last LiveCD I tried on this machine was a Hoary one...
[10:41] <jsgotangco> whoa
[10:41] <jsgotangco> google news is now out of beta
[10:41] <jsgotangco> i just added an ubuntu filter and it showed me all ubuntu news
[10:43] <jsgotangco> even feature freeze got in desktoplinux
[10:51] <Madpilot> one interesting bug in Alacarte - there is no "New Entry" button right on the main panel like Breezy's Edit Menu app
[11:16] <Madpilot> menu editing diff sent to the list
[11:19] <mdke> you are a god
[11:21] <Madpilot> nah, I just fake it :P

[11:24] <Madpilot> we still need *something* on printers in UDG, even if it's just a link to a wiki page or linuxprinting.org or something...
[11:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> a link to lp.o would be  a good start :/
[11:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> and on sharing printers... wonder if i can do something on that.
[11:27] <Madpilot> please do - all I know about printers is "I bought an HP, plugged it in, and it worked."  :P
[11:27] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, im sure you can afford a cheap HP printer :D
[11:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol Madpilot
[11:28] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: I've got one, that's what I meant
[11:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/566465 i think i missed something - can someone have a look at this doesnt validate?
[11:35] <Madpilot> how often do the HTML versions of our SVN docs get built? After every new commit?
[11:39] <jsgotangco> once a day
[11:39] <jsgotangco> you can request mdke for a manual trigger though
[11:39] <jsgotangco> mdke, can we make this like twice a day at least?
[11:40] <Madpilot> twice or even more times per day would be good, editing will probably pick up even more as our deadline gets closer
[11:43] <mdke> we could do twice a day
[11:43] <mdke> don't forget tho that the server is pretty busy with trying to support all the users reading help.u.c
[11:44] <Madpilot> true - doc.u.c & help.u.c share a machine, then?
[11:44] <mdke> yes
[11:46] <jsgotangco> mdke, how big is the load?
[11:50] <mdke> i don't know
[11:52] <jsgotangco> install a stats package :P
[11:54] <mdke> i've set it to twice a day
[12:16] <mpt> okie dokie
[12:21] <mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ is a giant workaround for the poor quality of http://www.ubuntu.com/ ...
[12:24] <Madpilot> that's fairly blunt :P
[12:25] <mpt> Oh, I'm not putting that in the spec :-)
[12:25] <mpt> "Our next release, sometime early 2005, will be roughly 5.04."
[12:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[12:26] <Madpilot> mpt: does it actually say that somewhere on u.c? gah...
[12:26] <ompaul> mpt, can I have your time machine I want to undo a mistake I made early last year
[12:27] <mpt> Madpilot, yes, and the weird thing is the surrounding questions are more or less up-to-date
[12:28] <mpt> except for "Soon after the Warty release, updated packages will be available in our development branch on an ongoing basis ..."
[12:29] <Madpilot> I know that parts of the FAQ are horribly irrelevant now - we were picking it apart here a while ago...
[12:30] <mpt> ok, that's kind of gutwrenching procrastination
[12:38] <mpt> mdke, I don't see that moving pages from one wiki to another solves the "Documentation is not in one place" problem -- it solves other problems, but not that one
[12:38] <mpt> It doesn't stop the DSF from existing, it doesn't stop ubuntuguide.org from existing, etc
[12:39] <ompaul> Madpilot, I still have it on webpage/FAQ  and I was looking for guidence on it
[12:39] <ompaul> on the wiki
[12:41] <Madpilot> ompaul: I'll have a look tomorrow - thanks for the reminder
[12:42] <mdke> mpt, the docs I'm talking about which are in different places are the ones we have control over
[12:42] <mdke> i.e. 1. our stuff on help.ubuntu.com, and 2. the wiki docs
[12:43] <mdke> i'm not referring to ubuntuguide, or anything else
[12:48] <ompaul> mdke, random idea, why not have the CSS changed in the wiki so it points out at the top of the page that help.ubuntu.com exists?
[12:49] <mdke> like a further tab you mean?
[12:51] <ompaul> no
[12:51] <ompaul> who reads tabs?
[12:51] <ompaul> no like inline in the page 
[12:52] <ompaul> an invariable piece of text at the top of page - for further information maybe explore help. ...
[12:52] <ompaul> something that says this is not definitive
[12:52] <ompaul> but allows respect to the author 
[12:53] <mdke> that just perpetuates the division between "official" and "unofficial" docs
[12:53] <ompaul> kind of like did not find what you wanted why not visit "ResouceCentral"
[12:53] <mdke> which I really don't like
[12:53] <ompaul> okay question, can anyone tell me how many pages are on the wiki?
[12:54] <ompaul> it is not a dividing line is it a community validation
[12:57] <mdke> it's in the spec
[12:57] <mdke> 5000 or so
[12:58] <ompaul> one person working alone never made stone soup, and so I see no difference between wiki and help that is all
[12:58] <ompaul> there is an end product difference but they are "ubuntu"
[12:59] <mdke> i'm not sure if you're agreeing with the spec or not
[01:03] <ompaul> My take on it is this: If I look for a parallel idea, I am thinking of the wiki as lots of individual packages on sourceforge, and the contents of kernel.org.  The help.ubuntu.com is a Ubuntu/Debian/$version. Just cos it does not make it to help does not make it better or worse, it might just be undiscovered. So I think when someone is on sourceforge a disservice is done to them as they may be missing the fact that a patched and p
[01:03] <ompaul> olished version is sitting in their distro, lets not talk about dependency hell. That is how I see it.
[01:04] <ompaul> for that purpose I think it is valid to point from sourceforge to distros if you can - and it is all Ubuntu
[01:06] <ompaul> mdke, is it just mud, or did I manage to make myself clear?
[01:09] <mdke> not clear, but it's not your fault
[01:09] <mdke> i'm distracted by work
[01:09] <mdke> i dont have time to concentrate :)
[01:14] <mpt> sourceforge is not a good model for anything :-P
[01:18] <mdke> mpt, did you get my explanation of the "documents are not in one place" thing?
[01:19] <ompaul> mpt,  then the point was well and truely lost
[01:30] <mpt> mdke, yes, I understood
[01:31] <mpt> mdke, I've knocked up the first half of the spec
[01:31] <mpt> Feel free to scream at me
[01:31] <mpt> ompaul, I *think* you're inadvertently explaining why Launchpad is a good thing :-)
[01:32] <mdke> mpt, read it. looks good. I may add a couple of small changes
[01:34] <mdke> I dont like as much as [possible in the design section
[01:34] <mpt> well, that excludes the DSF, for example
[01:35] <mpt> hmm, maybe it should just say "all help documents currently on the Ubuntu wiki".
[01:36] <mdke> ok
[01:37] <mpt> done
[01:41] <mpt> Has anyone thought about how i18n should be handled on help.ubuntu.com?
[01:43] <mdke> mpt, not really, often the translations end up on individual loco websites
[01:43] <mdke> help.ubuntu-it.org for example
[02:12] <mpt> erk, a lot of the CC meeting was discussing specs
[02:12] <mpt> mdke, in the long term I'd like specs stored and edited on Launchpad itself
[02:18] <mdke> me too
[02:24] <mdke> mpt, i might ask Mark to have a look at the spec and act as approver, any objections?
[02:24] <mpt> whoa, that's raising the bar :-)
[02:24] <mdke> i don't think it's a CC thing
[02:24] <mpt> ok
[02:24] <mdke> is it raising the bar?
[02:25] <mdke> mpt, can I take out the bit about FrontPage? there is no reason that point couldn't be fixed simply by renaming the home page of the existing wiki
[02:26] <mdke> i think it detracts from the point that documentation should have better visibility
[02:28] <mpt> mdke, done
[02:29] <mdke> thanks
[02:34] <mdke> mpt, i'm not sure I follow the lack of Structure point
[02:35] <mdke> that seems to me that it could be solved without a move
[02:35] <mdke> categories, namespaces etc
[02:37] <mpt> It's a social thing, not a technical thing
[02:37] <mpt> remove it if you think it detracts from the point
[02:41] <mdke> mpt, I've reworded it slightly, tell me what you think
[02:46] <mpt> good
[02:46] <mpt> though, repetitious
[07:02] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[07:54] <mdke> LaserJock, yes
[07:58] <LaserJock> mdke: i just wanted to discuss the copyright of scripts/Makefiles
[07:58] <mdke> ok, shoot
[07:59] <LaserJock> just a sec.
[08:03] <LaserJock> ok, so according to the docteam license all scripts and Makefiles should be GPL'd
[08:05] <LaserJock> but none of the scripts or Makefiles I saw were GPL'd
[08:08] <mdke> how does one gpl a script?
[08:10] <LaserJock> but a GPL preamble at the top. Just a sec, I'll give you an example
[08:10] <mdke> LaserJock, that's fine, as per the mailing list, you can go ahead and commit it
[08:11] <mdke> -> dinner
[08:11] <LaserJock> mdke: I think the problem is that the original authors have to GPL it. We can't just arbitrarily relicense it.
[08:13] <LaserJock> mdke: for example for validate.sh has "author: Sean Wheller (froud) sean@inwords.co.za"
[09:10] <mdke> LaserJock, good point. Ok, let's contact him and ask, and if he is not happy, then we'll have to get another validate script
[09:11] <LaserJock> mdke; ok, you going to do that? or should I? ubuntu/Makefile is better because it just says "# Ubuntu Documentation Project <ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com>"
[09:14] <mdke> yeah, that's fine
[09:14] <mdke> i'll mail sean
[09:15] <LaserJock> great, I'll try to go through the repo more and find files we need to change, etc.
[09:15] <mdke> feel free to change translate.sh
[09:16] <LaserJock> k
[09:16] <mdke> although I suppose it only needs to be GPL if it is in the source package, is that right?
[09:16] <mdke> we don't need the validate or translation scripts in the source package
[09:17] <LaserJock> I'm not sure but it probably wouldn't hurt to make it a policy to have proper copyrights when we make these scipts
[09:17] <mdke> well what is the reason that it needs to be GPL?
[09:17] <mdke> because it's in ubuntu main right?
[09:17] <LaserJock> no
[09:18] <mdke> why?
[09:18] <LaserJock> because we state on DocumentationTeam/License that all non-docs such as scripts, Makefiles, etc. are GPL and for the packaging I have to at least account for the copyright of all the files in the source.
[09:19] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what all goes into the source package but I got to looking at scripts,etc. and noticed that the didn't have any licensing really
[09:19] <mdke> right, so anything not in the source package doesn't matter
[09:21] <LaserJock> not strictly but if we say on the wiki that they are GPL but then the files don't say that ... I just think it might be wise to clear up the licenses for non-docs in the repo
[09:21] <mdke> ok
[09:21] <mdke> go ahead with translate.sh then
[09:21] <mdke> i'll ask jbailey sometime
[09:22] <LaserJock> I'm going to build the source package and just see what gets included
[09:22] <LaserJock> and address those first
[09:22] <mdke> LaserJock, read the README
[09:22] <mdke> the README.debian rather
[09:23] <LaserJock> ah yes. I knew I had seen that before
[09:24] <mdke> we can amend that list obviously
[09:26] <LaserJock> I'm going to unpack the source package and take a look because it isn't obvious to me what exactly gets included
[09:26] <mdke> right now validate and translate will be there
[09:35] <LaserJock> mdke: ok so here is something. ubuntu/default.css is GPL. shouldn't it be FDL/CC-SA?
[09:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, where is the source of the css? If it is a derived work, it might be gpl
[09:36] <mdke> *head swims*
[09:36] <mdke> it's derived from some docbook related thing yeah
[09:36] <LaserJock> mdke: me too.
[09:37] <LaserJock> this is quickly becoming a headache. Debian policy says that I have to account for the licenses of *every* file in the source package, I believe.
[09:38] <LaserJock> so I either have to list them individually or be able to make blanket "this directory is FDL/CC-SA" statements
[09:40] <mdke> say that all scripts and css are gpl?
[09:40] <LaserJock> are they?
[09:41] <mdke> then make them gpl :)
[09:41] <LaserJock> if I can ;-)
[09:42] <mdke> we'll ask where necessary
[09:42] <mdke> hey Burgwork 
[09:42] <mdke> you wanna do a usability review of the current desktop guide?
[09:42] <LaserJock> ok, so maybe to start we can weed out scripts that don't need to be in the source package like validate.sh
[09:43] <mdke> LaserJock, ok, but as you say, we can make them gpl anyway, just for consistency
[09:43] <LaserJock> sure
[09:49] <Burgwork> mdke, in my copious free time, sure
[09:49] <mdke> heh
[09:49] <Burgwork> I can commit to doing it next week, no earlier
[09:49] <mdke> any tips appreciated
[09:49] <mdke> no need to commit :)
[09:49] <mdke> just whatever you can do, is great
[09:49] <LaserJock> just a diff will do ;-)
[09:50] <Burgwork> LaserJock, actually, I even have commit rights, even though I don't exercise them very often
[09:50] <Burgwork> I did join the doc team in Dec 2004, after all
[09:51] <LaserJock> I know, I was just being trying to liven my mood after this licensing thing. :-)
[09:52] <LaserJock> I'm now installing Flight4 in a OSX qemu so I think that might help as well, hopefully.
[09:55] <mdke> who can translate this to English:
[09:55] <mdke> Kino is an advanced video editor. It features excellent integration with IEEE-1394 for capture, VTR control, and recording back to the camera. It captures video to disk in Raw DV and AVI format, in both type-1 DV and type-2 DV (separate audio stream) encodings.
[09:55] <mdke> i'm tempted to dump that into the kino section of the desktop guide on the assumption that people who want a program like that will understand it