[12:42] <Psi-Jack> Heh
[12:42] <Psi-Jack> Cute,
[12:43] <Pygi> what? :P
[12:03] <JulienH> Good morning UbuntuGuys :)
[12:29] <Pygi> mornin'
[04:20] <JulienH> Does some server features have been implementeed in the actual build of Dapper ?
[04:26] <infinity> Not sure I understand the question.  Dapper has lots of included server software, it has a kernel tuned for server use, and it will ship both of those on a custom "server" CD...
[04:27] <setuid> mmml... dapper
[04:27] <setuid> Why isn't anyone seeding the dvd? Its been going for days... slowly
[04:27] <JulienH> ok, but for example :  does the /etc RCS feature have a working implementation ?
[04:28] <setuid> 0 seeds, 1 peer
[04:29] <infinity> JulienH: No, an out-of-the-box /etc-in-revision-control feature will not ship with dapper.  Of course, it's simple to do on your own anyway.
[04:29] <infinity> JulienH: I assume someone will find time to make that even simpler for dapper+1
[04:32] <setuid> I've been asking for cvs-over-etc for about 6 years
[04:32] <setuid> I almost wrote it when I was at Linuxcare
[04:32] <setuid> There's also cvsfs
[04:33] <infinity> Well, with bzr it's dead simple (and much less messy than with CVS), but we just didn't have the spare time to make a nice little "/etc in bzr" package for people this time around, that's all.
[04:34] <setuid> Right, that's Martin's stuff
[04:34] <setuid> Daniel had some other kit too
[04:35] <setuid> prophesy or something, iirc
[04:35] <JulienH> So if I understand, Dapper+0 will only ship with a custom kernel and "server" packages ? No additionnal features ?
[04:36] <setuid> svn would be nice, because you can present it over DAV and do all kinds of neat things with it (like restoring boxes over DAV, doing mirrors and deployements, etc.)
[04:36] <setuid> What's Dapper+O?
[04:37] <setuid> infinity: Since you handle the Apache fu, why is it that "ServerTokens Prod" removes all the tokens, but not for some modules (xslt being one)
[04:37] <infinity> JulienH: Well, we've put a fair amount of work into it.  And some stuff should seem "slicker" out of the box, like a default snakeoil SSL setup for all daemons (in main) that support SSL.
[04:38] <infinity> setuid: You'd have to look at the source for the XSLT module to see WTF it's doing wrong, I suspect.
[04:38] <setuid> yeah, I'll cut into it later
[04:38] <infinity> setuid: Instead of adding itself to the list, it could be reading the Token list, adding its own, then overwriting it, or something equally vile.
[04:38] <setuid> I wish I could have a slick grub splash like the fbsplash on the dapper server boot iso
[04:39] <setuid> eye-candy at bootup for a LUG demo
[04:39] <infinity> Grub splashes only last a short while anyway.  If you want a tiny bit of eyecandy for you LUG, install usplash on your server.
[04:39] <setuid> usplash?
[04:39] <infinity> (Not something I'd usually recommend, but hey, demos are demos)
[04:40] <infinity> usplash, the userspace boot splash we install by default on desktops.
[04:40] <setuid> I wish I wasn't the only peer/seed on the dapper dvd... but I am. Sigh.
[04:46] <JulienH> In other thinking way, a bootsplash may be a good beginning in order to convince Windows "Admins" to migrate to Ubuntu ^^
[04:46] <setuid> If that's what it takes to convince them, then I feel sorry for them
[04:47] <setuid> "It must be better, look at their boot splash!"
[04:47] <JulienH> Yeah ! That type of thinkings :p
[04:47] <setuid> hrm, ubuntu-server now just boots into the grub prompt
[04:47] <setuid> I just tried to fix it with grub-install, no luck
[04:48] <setuid> wth happened here
[04:52] <infinity> JulienH: We're intentionally not installing usplash on the ubuntu-server install, because A) that would seriously upset "real" admins, and B) a splash needs a framebuffer, a framebuffer needs to fiddle with VGA registers, and while vga16fb is generally rock solid, anything touching VGA registers can potentially make your system less stable, so why do it?
[04:52] <infinity> If the goal is stability out of the box, having rhe very first thing we do (load a frambuffer and show you pretty graphics!) destabilises your system, we lose.
[04:53] <setuid> I agree
[04:53] <infinity> s/rhe/the/
[04:53] <JulienH> I agree too
[04:54] <infinity> However, if you want to show it off on the overhead projector at a LUG, it's only an apt-get install away. :)
[04:54] <infinity> (And it's never crashed my laptop...)
[04:55] <infinity> (Full disclosure: I maintain usplash)
[04:55] <infinity> (And initramfs-tools, which is where it hooks in)
[04:55] <JulienH> Then, if Linux is losing stability just because of loading a framebuffer.... we should question ourselves lol
[04:56] <setuid> Well, Windows put lots of drivers in Ring 0, causing fun lockups
[04:56] <setuid> Its bad to do that
[04:56] <infinity> Actually, I was the last person to touch the vga16 framebuffer driver too, come to think of it, so you can blame me on all counts if any of it sucks.
[04:57] <infinity> JulienH: In practice, I've not seen vga16fb bring a machine down, but from years of experience, I can tell you that VGA registers are fragile things.
[04:57] <infinity> It's the number one reason why I always run Win32 servers on the "Standard VGA" driver (which is as bare-bones as you can get), cause anything else is just pointless bling begging for a lockup on a machine you never look at the console on ANYWAY.
[04:58] <setuid> I love how people use the OpenGL screensaver on servers, and wonder why things lock up
[04:58] <infinity> Ugh.
[04:59] <setuid> Ok, something seriously fucked up grub on this ubuntu-server install.
[04:59] <setuid> I shouldn't have to reinstall from scratch to fix this, but grub doesn't want to work either
[04:59] <infinity> Lovely.  Is this on bare metal, or in vmware?
[05:00] <setuid> in vmware at the moment, it worked great for a few days, dozens of boots
[05:00] <infinity> What's it doing on boot?
[05:00] <setuid> Kicks into grub> immediately
[05:00] <infinity> Oh, that's special.
[05:00] <setuid> Yep, special... as in special ed.
[05:01] <setuid> I'll blow it away
[05:01] <infinity> I'll plead ignorance on that one.  That's not gotten to anything I touch (kernel, initramfs, etc) yet.  That's grub itself hating you.
[05:01] <JulienH> Where can I find a list of packages that are server edition specific ?
[05:02] <infinity> JulienH: As in "will be included on the CD"?  That list isn't finalised.
[05:02] <infinity> JulienH: Nothing is "server-specific" in the sense that it's seperate from the distro, though, it's all in Ubuntu main, just different packages end up on different CDs (and end up installed by default or not)
[05:03] <infinity> Once installed, the world is your oyster via apt-get, so the lines get a bit fuzzy (or, rather, there are no lines)
[05:03] <JulienH> I've heard that packages between the desktop and server version will be different...
[05:04] <infinity> You heard wrong, then.
[05:04] <infinity> Same repository, same distribution, just different package SELECTIONS on the CDs.
[05:04] <JulienH> Ok, thanks for giving me the right information :)
[05:04] <infinity> Same packages in the repository, though.
[05:05] <infinity> (So, you could install ubuntu-server, then install ubuntu-desktop, and you'd have essentiall a normal Ubuntu install, except you might be running the -server kernel instead of the -386 or -686 kernels, though it's easy enough to switch kernels too)
[05:06] <JulienH> So, what are the differences between the Desktop and the Server image cd ?
[05:07] <JulienH> http://releases.ubuntu.com/breezy/ and http://releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/breezy/
[05:08] <infinity> What packages are on the CD itself (obviously, the server CD will include no "desktop" software, and lots more server stuff in its place, like MySQL, PostgreSWL, Squid, Samba, Apache2, etc, etc), the server CD won't install anything more than a base system by default (by design), and the server CD will install a server kernel by default instead of a desktop one.
[05:09] <infinity> If you have speedy internet, you really don't need multiple CDs.
[05:09] <infinity> The normal desktop CD has a "server" installation mode you can kick into, which will leave you at exactly the same spot as the server CD would, except with a desktop kernel instead of a server kernel.
[05:09] <infinity> Swap kernels, and you have a server installation (but a CD filled with useless crap like OpenOffice)
[05:10] <JulienH> ok... so the difference resides in the kernel and the packages selection.
[05:10] <infinity> Having seperate images is partially for the bandwidth-impaired (who can have people burn one for them, etc), and partly a way for us to yell loudly to the world "Hey, we're not just a desktop distribution!"
[05:10] <infinity> JulienH: Yup.  That's about it.
[05:11] <infinity> JulienH: The server CD may get more goodies as time goes on, including things like a small live image for recovery tasks and other fun stuff.
[05:11] <setuid> speaking of which... can someone please seed the dvd ;)
[05:11] <infinity> JulienH: But in the end, if you're just installed the OS, it's just kernel and package selection that matters to you.
[05:12] <setuid> I'm getting 35B/sec.
[05:12] <setuid> that's 35 _bytes_ per-sec.
[05:12] <setuid> 0 seeds, 1 peer (probably me)
[05:13] <infinity> Lovely.  I have no idea what goes on with the bittorrent stuff on cdimage.ubuntu.com, but I can poke people who do when they're around.
[05:13] <setuid> I'll try to fetch it over http and see
[05:14] <maswan> Hint: bittorrent sucks wrt performance outside the release rush, if there are less than 10 or so simultaneous downloaders, http is bound to be faster.
[05:15] <setuid> I was getting 300+k/sec. yesterday and the day before
[05:15] <setuid> Now at 50% downloaded, everyone dropped out
[05:15] <setuid> I don't think people "Get(tm)" the point of p2p
[05:16] <maswan> perhaps the u.c seeder is down while new dailes are built?
[05:16] <setuid> possible
[05:16] <maswan> but still, 300k/s is way less than you should be able to get with just plain http
[05:17] <maswan> if you have a resonably fast internet connection
[05:17] <setuid> I'm getting 50-90k right now over http
[05:17] <setuid> http://cdimage.ubuntulinux.org/dvd/current/dapper-dvd-i386.iso
[05:17] <setuid> It just jumped up to 177k, now its back down again
[05:18] <maswan> you're right,t hat is slow
[05:18] <setuid> Maybe the server's taking a hit
[05:18] <infinity> Use maswan's mirror instead.
[05:18] <setuid> where?
[05:18] <maswan> infinity: we don't mirror current though
[05:18] <setuid> hrm
[05:18] <infinity> The Canonical datacentre has been bandwidth limited recently.
[05:18] <infinity> maswan: Oh, right.  Not even Flight releases?
[05:18] <maswan> infinity: because the time it takes to mirror all the daily builds is most of the day
[05:18] <maswan> infinity: all the flights are mirrored
[05:19] <setuid> I seed my mirrors by using torrents, and then they do http/ftp/rsync on their end
[05:19] <infinity> Oh, but I don't think I rolled an official ubuntu-server Flight4..
[05:19] <maswan> anything in the "releases" directories
[05:19] <infinity> Mostly cause there was no point, cause the seeds are still a mess, so the CD contents would suck.
[05:19] <maswan> infinity: ah, hmm.. perhaps they should dump more releases.u.c traffic our way then. :)
[05:20] <maswan> bittorrent works good if it is a popular file and the server[s]  are bandiwdth limited
[05:20] <setuid>  1% [                                     ]  33,252,480    88.17K/s  ETA 8:20:32
[05:21] <setuid> maswan: No no... I mean seed your mirrors with bt
[05:21] <JulienH> I've just installed the daily build of dapper server
[05:21] <setuid> it doesn't matter if its popular or not
[05:21] <JulienH> And the install kernel isn't server... any idea ?
[05:22] <maswan> setuid: if 50% of the data comes from the same server as the one handling http, that bittorrent download puts 5 times as much load on the server wrt disk io and cpu, compared to http/rsync
[05:22] <setuid> No no
[05:22] <setuid> That's not how that works
[05:22] <setuid> Let's say you have 100% of the file on one server
[05:22] <maswan> ... yes?
[05:22] <setuid> You have 5 mirrors, they all grab 5% of that 100%, 5 _different_ %
[05:22] <setuid> Now there's 25% of that 100%, being shared across the mirrors, _NOT_ hitting you for it
[05:23] <infinity> setuid: Seeding his mirrors with bittorrent would be pointless, given the amount of potential direct bandwidth he has to us.
[05:23] <setuid> well, 20% of the data anyway, the first mirror hits you for 5%
[05:23] <maswan> setuid: yes, breakeven there lies at about 20 mirrors, when I last looked at it.
[05:23] <maswan> setuid: and that still is under the assumption that network bandwidth is more precious than disk bandwidth
[05:23] <infinity> setuid: If you mean "mirrors, in general", then sure, but we don't have that many people who mirror cdimages on a regular basis.
[05:23] <setuid> We serve something like 7GiB/day on release weeks
[05:23] <setuid> its insane, and I'd never be able to handle it if it weren't for torrent
[05:24] <maswan> setuid: I'm the cdimage.debian.org guy, I have looked rather carefully at torrents. :)
[05:24] <setuid> infinity: I'd be happy to provide that
[05:24] <infinity> maswan: Give the man some graphs of what you push out.
[05:24] <maswan> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/
[05:24] <maswan> last week
[05:24] <setuid> I don't doubt that there's a bandwidth constraint, sure, I've lived through it for the last 5 years with our projects
[05:24] <infinity> maswan: Still have stats for breezy release and sarge release?
[05:25] <maswan> http://www.acc.umu.se/~maswan/2005-12-10/2gbit-freesoftware.html
[05:25] <maswan> yeah, there are the big graphs. :)
[05:25] <infinity> 2.13 TB over the last day.  Nice.
[05:26] <infinity> You scare me.
[05:26] <setuid> When my new business goes up, it'll be nice and fat pipe
[05:27] <setuid> I mirror Wikipedia, LDP, CPAN and a few other things here locally
[05:27] <setuid> Oh and Gutenberg, of course
[05:27] <setuid> I'd love to be able to provide an ubuntu/debian/cdimage and pool mirror
[05:27] <setuid> Just need to get some more disks
[05:28] <maswan> the seeding of the cdimage.d.o torrents is done from another filesystem on the same host btw, just to not pull the io performance of the main raid down too much.
[05:28] <setuid> you doing raw reads, or is it a real fs?
[05:28] <maswan> real fs
[05:28] <setuid> jfs? xfs?
[05:29] <maswan> xfs
[05:29] <setuid> *nod*
[05:29] <setuid> How much total, is your du -sch on the top-level cdimage tree?
[05:29] <maswan> ubuntu or debian?
[05:29] <setuid> Both (individually)
[05:30] <maswan> debian-cd (released) is 138G
[05:30] <setuid> I'm curious how much I'd need to bring that up online on the tracker
[05:30] <setuid> Wikipedia's english version is a fat 340GiB
[05:30] <maswan> ubuntu-releases is 40G
[05:31] <setuid> Oh that's not bad at all, still under 200GiB
[05:31] <maswan> cdimage.u.c (only releases/ dirs) is 113G
[05:31] <setuid> Except I'd have to pull it all over http for now, to mirror it. By the time I was done, it'd be refreshed again.
[05:31] <maswan> I think with all the dailies etc it is about half a TB
[05:31] <maswan> cdimage (weekly builds, old releases, jigdo pools, etc): ... still running
[05:31] <maswan> the jigdo pools are lots of dirs and links
[05:32] <setuid> Right
[05:33] <maswan> hmm.. I should head home now though.
[05:37] <setuid> I'll see what I can do
[05:37] <setuid> Thanks for the help (and I know your name from somewhere... were you here back in the #linpeople days?)
[05:38] <JulienH> What are the differences between the linux-server and linux-image-server metapackages ? Their description are identical
[05:39] <JulienH> "dpkg -l | grep server" gives me nothing...
[05:50] <infinity> JulienH: Given that there's no linux-restricted-modules (yet) for the server kernels, nothing.
[05:50] <infinity> JulienH: But if/when there is, "linux-server" would depend on "linux-image-server" and "linux-restricted-modules-server"
[05:51] <infinity> JulienH: Which is the case with every "linux-$FLAVOR" package, which depends on "linux-restricted-modules-$FLAVOUR" and "linux-image-$FLAVOUR"
[05:52] <JulienH> Ok, thanks for you answers
[05:58] <spike> eeer, can anybody suggest what "SEL" could be when it comes to an acer server and "System fault" led?
[05:59] <spike> the thing is I've got this brand-new machine, installed ubuntu server on it, system works fine but the "system fault" led is on, and it should indicate a critical error
[05:59] <spike> I cant find a way to tell wtf it's complaining about
[06:00] <spike> also I've enabled logging in the BIOS but cant find a way to view the logs
[06:00] <spike> suggestions?
[06:00] <infinity> None whatsoever, other than the not-very-helpful "don't buy Acer hardware"
[06:00] <spike> oh, ssytem even log
[06:00] <spike> that's what SEL expands to
[06:01] <spike> infinity: too late, they got 3... , and of course never thought of asking me...
[06:01] <spike> "it was a nice offer"
[06:01] <infinity> Heh.  It always is.
[06:02] <infinity> I don't suppose you're in Australia?
[06:02] <spike> might have got them downstairs at the store with one of those "pay 2 bring home 3" promotions...
[06:02] <infinity> (I'm from Canada, where I thought Acer was actually dead, until I moved to Australia and saw them EVERYWHERE)
[06:02] <infinity> Hadn't seen any Acer systems back home for well over 5 years.
[06:02] <spike> uh, why did you move from the lovely canada?!
[06:03] <infinity> A girl.
[06:03] <spike> dont really know australia but I were canadian I wouldnt ever migrate away :)
[06:03] <infinity> THE girl, more accurately.
[06:03] <spike> oh, ok, I would too :)
[06:03] <spike> ehehe
[06:03] <spike> lucky you
[06:03] <spike> anyway, back googling how the fsck get access to the bios logs...
[06:03] <spike> tnx for moral support :)
[06:04] <spike> could spit something there
[06:06] <maswan> setuid: 838G    cdimage
[06:06] <maswan> setuid: hmm.. #openprojects perhaps?
[06:07] <maswan> or whatever that channels was called
[06:07] <setuid> Probably, I was here before OPN
[06:37] <setuid> Getting a BLAZING 6k/sec. on cdimage now, over http
[06:37] <setuid> ;)
[06:52] <JulienH> I was at 120kB/s on cdimage...
[10:46] <fbn> will there be a new version for the courier-mta package before dapper release?
[11:26] <Pygi> fabbione: ping
[11:56] <Unfun> hola