[12:12] <LaserJock> ohh, sweet. I just got yelp installed in OSX!
[12:57] <robotgeek> LaserJock: wow!
[12:58] <robotgeek> fink?
[01:00] <LaserJock> hmm, false alarm. I've got yelp installed using darwin ports but it won't open any files
[01:01] <robotgeek> LaserJock: is that the same as fink? it's been long since i've used OS X
[01:02] <LaserJock> its a bit different. fink uses dpkg and apt and has binary packages (which means I can't use it right now) but darwin ports uses the BSD ports system with source.
[01:03] <robotgeek> LaserJock: ah, okay. 
[01:03] <LaserJock> but I just saw on the fink website they have a preliminary build for macintels so I'll have to try that out.
[01:05] <robotgeek> LaserJock: ah, a mac book pro?
[01:05] <LaserJock> no intel iMac
[01:06] <robotgeek> hmm, nice
[01:06] <LaserJock> so far it is pretty cool
[01:06] <LaserJock> but it would be nice if I could dual-boot with Ubuntu
[01:07] <robotgeek> i need to get linux installed on the nicer computer, writing anything on 12" screens suck
[01:08] <robotgeek> it sucks more when you actually have the bigger screen right in front of the 12", lol
[01:08] <LaserJock> yeah, i've got 17' widescreen. I wish I could've got the 20"
[01:09] <Madpilot> lovely thing, but a !#$% to move around - weighs a tonne
[01:09] <robotgeek> true, i had once of those back in the univ
[01:10] <LaserJock> yeah, we've got about 6 19" CRTs sitting around in the lab
[01:10] <Madpilot> in a year or so I'll replace it with a flatscreen of some sort - I don't like most LCDs, though. They're fuzzy compared to a good CRT
[01:10] <robotgeek> unless i have to do some graphic art, i';; take a LCD
[01:11] <LaserJock> I'd switch to flatpanel just for the space.
[01:11] <Madpilot> The way my desk is contructed, I'd have room for dual 19" LCDs, which would/will be a lot of fun
[01:12] <Madpilot> *constructed, even... :P
[01:12] <LaserJock> nice
[01:13] <LaserJock> new profs here are getting dual flatpanels with there start up money.
[01:13] <Burgwork> s/there/their
[01:13] <LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks ;-)
[01:13] <robotgeek> heh
[01:13] <LaserJock> IRC sure makes my spelling go to heck
[01:13] <robotgeek> howto even
[01:14] <Madpilot> Burgwork: aren't you supposed to be working?
[01:14] <Burgwork> nah
[01:14] <LaserJock> I can hook up another flatpanel to my iMac. That would be fun.
[01:20] <LaserJock> Madpilot: did you attach any meat with that last email?
[01:21] <LaserJock> or were we supposed to just imagine the diff?
[01:21] <Madpilot> LaserJock: just resent w/ file... :|
[01:22] <LaserJock> anybody around to commit Brian's patch?
[01:23] <LaserJock> Madpilot: any word on your svn access?
[01:23] <Madpilot> nope
[01:24] <LaserJock> I thought Mark had elmo fix that. :-|
[01:34] <LaserJock> Madpilot: done
[01:35] <Burgwork> LaserJock, remember to email as well
[01:35] <Madpilot> LaserJock: you're waiting for commit as well, right?
[01:36] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I did, before I said  done ;-)
[01:36] <Burgwork> ah, hadn't hit yet
[01:37] <Madpilot> LaserJock: nevermind, I see you've got commit rights :P
[01:38] <LaserJock> yeah, it took forever but I got 'em
[04:13] <LaserJock> anybody know how to adjust tables in docbook?
[04:35] <LaserJock> what do you guys use for spell checking .xml files?
[04:35] <Burglaptop> my eyes
[04:36] <Madpilot> I spellcheck by eye in Yelp
[04:37] <LaserJock> you Burger's must have had great english teachers ;-)
[04:37] <LaserJock> s/Burger's/Burgers/
[04:38] <Burglaptop> Madpilot: how many teachers is our family again?
[04:38] <Madpilot> in? umm... most of the family? :P
[04:38] <LaserJock> hmm, I see
[04:39] <Madpilot> one grandfather was a teacher & principal, Mom was a teacher, one aunt & one grandmother both taught nursing, Dad teaches university... there's more I'm forgetting about, I think :D
[04:40] <LaserJock> hmm, not in my family. 
[04:40] <LaserJock> I'm pretty much the first to go to college other than one of my grandfathers
[04:41] <Burglaptop> ironically, neither my brother nor I have finished university
[04:41] <LaserJock> black sheep of the family, eh?
[04:41] <Madpilot> we're compensating for the weight of all those degrees in the older generations
[04:46] <Burglaptop> hmm, I just realized that Userfuls logo fails one of a key tests of logos
[04:46] <Burglaptop> http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.com/sponsors.php
[04:46] <Burglaptop> scroll down
[04:50] <Madpilot> Burglaptop: not sure what you mean...
[04:50] <Burglaptop> see that it needs to be one a white background?
[04:51] <Madpilot> yeah, you and Trolltech
[04:51] <Burglaptop> yep
[04:51] <Burglaptop> logos should look good regardless of background
[04:59] <Madpilot> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9075-2051196,00.html <-- amusing
[05:02] <Burglaptop> robitaille: bon soir
[05:02] <robitaille> Hi Burglaptop 
[05:03] <Burglaptop> does aptitude deal with .debs?
[05:03] <Burglaptop> ie, can it replace it dpkg?
[05:04] <robitaille> I thought aptitude was like synaptic.  
[05:04] <Burglaptop> yes, it was
[05:04] <robitaille> I tried it once 3 years ago, so memory is a a foggy
[05:07] <crimsun> afaict it's still another front end to apt, which is a frontend to dpkg
[05:07] <Burglaptop> hmm
[05:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> is anyone else having config-system.xml not validating? (brb though)
[05:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> :S
[05:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> brb again 
[05:15] <Burglaptop> Kamping_Kaiser: in all seriousness, if you are not getting it to validate, I would try deleting the file and re-downloading it, then try again. If it still doesn't validate, look for the bug
[05:15] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: UDG's config-system.xml validates here - latest SVN
[05:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: ok. I'll try getting the file again.
[05:17] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: you are talking about the Ubuntu Desktop's one, and not the Kubuntu DG's file?
[05:17] <Madpilot> they've got identical filenames...
[05:17] <LaserJock> do you validate the individual .xml files? or the doc as a whole?
[05:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: yes. i validated again and it worked. must be related to wokring dir :/
[05:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> i just did the 1
[05:18] <Madpilot> LaserJock: I always just validate desktopguide.xml, that pulls everything else in
[05:19] <LaserJock> Madpilot: that's what I do too but I wondered if there would be a difference. I wouldn't think so.
[05:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> (ubuntu) desktop-guide.xml validates, but config-system.xml wont - does that mean it's not supposed to be validated on it's own?
[05:22] <Burglaptop> possibly
[05:24] <Madpilot> quite likely; DocBook like this seems all interconnected in ways I haven't yet figured out
[05:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. I'll try and remember to validate stuff like d-g.xml, not individual files :/
[05:25] <Madpilot> just run the same path/to/file.xml thru both Yelp and the validator
[05:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> does docbook have comments?
[05:29] <Madpilot> same as HTML comments <!-- comment -->
[05:29] <jsgotangco> ordinary HTML comments work
[05:29] <Kamping_Kaiser> ta
[05:29] <LaserJock> do you guys use a lot of comments when you're writing?
[05:30] <Madpilot> not really
[05:30] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: what're you working on?
[05:30] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i decided to have a play with config-system.xml. and i broke it quite nicely
[05:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> and i think i just unbroke it.
[05:32] <Madpilot> hey, I've submitted patches that I *knew* didn't validate, because it was late and someone else could solve the damn thing... :P
[05:32] <LaserJock> can someone take a look at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ch05.html#id2566611 . Is there a way to adjust the column widths?
[05:32] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol Madpilot
[05:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> docbook is so cool :O it does stuff
[05:35] <Madpilot> LaserJock: in HTML there is, not sure what works in DocBook
[05:36] <LaserJock> hmm, it just looks ugly and I'm not sure what to do with it
[05:37] <robotgeek> LaserJock: where's the css?
[05:37] <LaserJock> robotgeek: umm, I don't know exactly.
[05:37] <LaserJock> it's the common css
[05:38] <robotgeek> LaserJock: how does it actually get to the server? 
[05:38] <LaserJock> robotgeek: it gets built by a cron job
[05:38] <Madpilot> voodoo
[05:39] <Burglaptop> goat and virgin sacrifice
[05:39] <LaserJock> libs/ubuntu-book.css is my guess, looking at ubuntu/Makefile
[05:40] <Burglaptop> Madpilot: you'd think we have similar taste in humour or something :P
[05:40] <robotgeek> LaserJock: so, basically that css would need to be modified
[05:40] <LaserJock> robotgeek: why not the .xml
[05:41] <Madpilot> Burglaptop: or something :)
[05:41] <robotgeek> LaserJock: why would it be in xml? 
[05:41] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: docbook is designed not to have any presentation/layout stuff in it
[05:41] <robotgeek> LaserJock: same as with latex, and style files
[05:41] <Burglaptop> or xhtml and css
[05:42] <robotgeek> to each his own :)
[05:42] <LaserJock> ok fine, I just was looking at the Definitive Guide
[05:42] <Kamping_Kaiser>  /etc/cups/cupsd.conf in Breezy and dapper are very different. does anyone know if there's a major difference in how it works? not much point trying to write about cups (from my Breezy experiance) if it's changed for dapper
[05:42] <robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: get dapper :)
[05:42] <LaserJock> and it has stuff like colspec colwidth='0.5in'/>
[05:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: i have dapper, but no printer for it ;)
[05:44] <robotgeek> LaserJock: link to chapter?
[05:44] <robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: ah, okay
[05:44] <LaserJock> robotgeek: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/informaltable.html
[05:44] <LaserJock> and what about in yelp, it looks equally as bad in yelp.
[05:48] <robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, weird. i always assumed that it was evil to do that in xml
[05:50] <LaserJock> robotgeek: well, that might be. It always seems like they open up the oppritunity for those of use that like to tweak the layout, and tempt us to write bad code :(
[05:51] <Kamping_Kaiser> how would i make docbook treat this <Location /> as part of the text, not a docbook tag?
[05:51] <robotgeek> LaserJock: http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/markup.html#d369e653
[05:51] <Kamping_Kaiser> do i escape it some how?
[05:53] <robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: i'm looking it up, one sec
[05:53] <LaserJock> I just use &lt; and &gt;
[05:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock: what do they do? (apart from validate)
[05:54] <LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: less than (<) and greater than (>)
[05:54] <robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: < is a reserved character, &lt; 
[05:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> ah.
[06:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. thanks all. it validates now :)
[06:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> i started knocking up something on printer sharing (which I'll try out now). should i make it a wiki page? or post it to the list, or some other method of geting feedback?
[06:40] <Burglaptop> Kamping_Kaiser: wiki is a good place
[06:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. 
[06:49] <LaserJock> there's syntax?
[06:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> well it's not strait html
[06:50] <LaserJock> I didn't think it was anything
[06:50] <HrdwrBoB> it's pretty simple
[06:51] <HrdwrBoB> take you all of about 10 minutes to learn
[06:52] <Madpilot> tables are odd syntax in moinmoin; everything else is fairly straightforward
[06:53] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. I'm about to try out the insturctions i wrote then I'll try and ifnd a logical name for it in the wiki :)
[06:54] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: there are already wiki pages for XP->Ubuntu and Ubuntu->XP printer sharing, not sure there's anthing for Ubuntu->Ubuntu sharing though
[06:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: I'm about to try it. i havent seen any ubuntu - linux one (ubuntu/Debian is what i can help with)
[06:55] <Madpilot> cool
[06:55] <Burglaptop> sadly, not as easy as it should be
[06:56] <Burglaptop> dapper
[06:56] <Burglaptop> +1 should have zeroconf love
[06:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> mmm. sweet
[06:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. *takes it on trust that gksudo gedit works, as it wont work over x11 forwarding
[07:03] <Burglaptop> it does
[07:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> it didnt work here :/
[07:04] <Madpilot> it works on a regular desktop, anyway
[07:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. anyway.
[07:42] <dsas> just to check: if a program is in main, then I don't need to say "get blah from the main repository" do I?
[07:42] <crimsun> "install blah" should suffice.
[07:43] <crimsun> it makes more sense to omit main and only mention universe and multiverse, since they're not explicitly enabled in net-aware installs
[07:44] <dsas> thanks, just checking
[07:44] <crimsun> (make sure that assumption is noted clearly, though)
[07:47] <dsas> hmm, from what I can see it's used in the rest of the document.
[07:48] <crimsun> then be consistent w/ the rest of the document
[09:01] <mdke_> Madpilot, any thoughts on what dsas and crimsun were just talking about?
[09:01] <mdke_> afaik, we're doing a bit of both right now, there is no consistency
[09:02] <Madpilot> mdke_: we should probably go thru UDG and edit it to one style
[09:02] <Madpilot> I like crimsun's point about leaving main/restricted out, because they're available by default
[09:02] <mdke_> so do I
[09:02] <mdke_> let's do that
[03:12] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:12] <jsgotangco> i wouldnt do that yet
[03:12] <mdke> dapper is dodgy still?
[03:13] <mdke> looks alright
[03:13] <mdke> maybe i'll give it a bit longer
[03:13] <jsgotangco> oh its pretty stable
[03:13] <jsgotangco> especially flight4
[03:13] <mdke> well i can't update to a milestone
[03:13] <jsgotangco> there are just a few stuff that are still dodgy for me
[03:13] <mdke> i can only update to the latest dapper
[03:13] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:14] <jsgotangco> my FF for instance seems to have this xul interface error
[03:14] <mdke> yes that's quite common i believe
[03:15] <mdke> i wonder if we should use the yelp stylesheets for building html, things like <note> and stuff look really nice
[03:16] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:21] <jsgotangco> cool mvo uploaded latest g-a-i
[03:46] <mdke> i suppose we're going to have to get round documenting backports
[03:47] <jsgotangco> why?
[03:47] <mdke> well, people use them don't they?
[03:48] <jsgotangco> are ubuntu backports safe already?
[03:48] <mdke> they are as safe as the unstable version
[03:50] <jsgotangco> ahh well
[03:51] <mdke> although, we don't document that either right now in the DesktopGuide
[04:17] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:15] <theCore> mdke, what is the deadline for the documentation ?
[06:15] <mdke> theCore, March 23
[06:15] <mdke> a whole month
[06:15] <mdke> :)
[06:15] <theCore> that quite soon
[06:15] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[06:15] <theCore> thanks
[06:17] <mdke> the docs are looking rather good
[06:17] <mdke> they'll be in time
[06:21] <mdke> hey there LaserJock 
[06:21] <mdke> get my email about validate.sh?
[06:21] <theCore> I understand know why they say the release cycles are short and furious :)
[06:21] <LaserJock> umm, yes I did.
[06:21] <mdke> cool
[06:21] <mdke> why umm?
[06:21] <LaserJock> I will try to finish the copyright stuff today.
[06:22] <LaserJock> because I had to think about it
[06:22] <mdke> he3h
[06:22] <LaserJock> I've got so much to do
[06:23] <mdke> :)
[06:23] <mdke> just do one script, and I'll copy and paste it to the others, if you like
[06:24] <LaserJock> I was talking about other things I need to do. MOTU stuff, etc.
[06:25] <mdke> sure, but if you can save time on this, you can spend more on those
[06:26] <LaserJock> but I like this :-)
[06:26] <mdke> ah, np then
[06:26] <LaserJock> I would like to "fix" something. I've been helping out but it would be nice to see something through to completion. You know what I mean?
[06:27] <mdke> yep
[06:31] <LaserJock> mdke: ok, question. Is the Sean Wheller the copyright holder for validate.sh ? It just has him a author?
[06:32] <mdke> i guess so then
[06:33] <mdke> Burgwork, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=diff <-- is the book going to be published online?
[06:33] <mdke> actually scratch that
[06:44] <LaserJock> mdke: how does http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9254 look?
[06:46] <mdke> LaserJock, looks great, if you're happy
[06:46] <LaserJock> I am
[06:47] <LaserJock> I'll just apply that to the translate.sh scripts. The .css files I think should already have proper copyright headers but I'll double check just to make sure
[06:47] <mdke> cool, thanks for your work on this
[06:48] <Burgwork> mdke, the book will be under our licenses, from what I understand
[06:48] <theCore> Burgwork, the book ? a printed one?
[06:48] <LaserJock> mdke: np, I know how fickle devs can be about copyright. I wouldn't want elmo to take issue with ubuntu-docs ;-)
[06:49] <mdke> Burgwork, yeah, but i was trying to understand the link added to UserDocumentation. I've removed it for now, because there is no material on the page that was linked
[06:49] <mdke> LaserJock, yay
[06:49] <mdke> does one spell apt-get with capital letters in a section title?
[06:49] <mdke> answers on a postcard
[06:50] <LaserJock> theCore: do you have any patches to send me? or are you still trying to recover from your little brother?
[06:51] <theCore> I'm still trying to recover, I'm going to install dapper, so it may take a little bit of time, before I can continue working on the PG
[06:53] <LaserJock> theCore: could you just tar up the packagingguide directory and send it to me? I can at least take a look at it while your recovering ;-)
[06:53] <theCore> okay
[06:53] <theCore> but I warn you, it still clumsy
[06:54] <LaserJock> np
[06:56] <Burgwork> mdke, I didn't add any link
[06:56] <Burgwork> theCore, yes, a printed one. Working title "The Official Ubuntu book"
[06:58] <theCore> ooh, cool
[06:58] <mdke> Burgwork, no, I know.
[06:58] <mdke> that's a terrible title :/
[06:58] <theCore> So, what will be the content of it?
[06:59] <Burgwork> mdke, we (the authors) are being paid by canonical
[06:59] <Burgwork> theCore, words ;)
[06:59] <theCore> lol
[06:59] <Burgwork> maybe even English words, but I cannot say
[06:59] <mdke> Burgwork, i'm afraid that is not going to stop me hating the use of the word "official"
[06:59] <theCore> so, it won't be a community driven effort ?
[06:59] <mdke> it is totally meaningless
[07:00] <Burgwork> we are planning on getting fairly wide reviewing effort, announced shortly
[07:00] <theCore> just "The Ubuntu Book" would be nicier 
[07:00] <Burgwork> I said working title, not final title
[07:00] <theCore> oh, ok
[07:01] <mdke> if you hadn't, I wouldn't have bothered voicing an objection :)
[07:01] <Burgwork> you would have just quietly stewed?
[07:01] <mdke> sure
[07:01] <mdke> ok i'm off home
[07:01] <mdke> later all
[07:02] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[07:02] <LaserJock> I should commit the copyright changes soon
[07:03] <theCore> I really starting to regret that I didn't went to UBZ ... :/
[07:03] <theCore> It was at 30 min of my home
[07:03] <LaserJock> theCore: really? I would have gone if it had been that close.
[07:04] <LaserJock> mostly because I needed to get my gpg key signed
[07:04] <theCore> lol
[07:05] <theCore> I hope, they make another one at Montreal (but I don't expect they will)
[07:07] <LaserJock> I'm hoping for one in Las Vegas
[07:07] <Burgwork> almost never going to happen in the US
[07:07] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I know :(
[07:07] <Burgwork> too many canonical employees would probably refuse to go
[07:07] <theCore> why so ?
[07:07] <theCore> oh
[07:08] <theCore> political reasons?
[07:08] <LaserJock> it's a pity though because it might be helpful.
[07:10] <LaserJock> theCore: I think software patent reasons.
[07:11] <theCore> I see
[07:11] <Burgwork> no, political reasons
[07:11] <Burgwork> all that fingerprinting and other crap
[07:12] <theCore> LaserJock, see I was right ;-)
[07:12] <theCore> fingerprinting?
[07:12] <Burgwork> also, I understand Mark is a greylisted because he flew out of the US once without getting permission
[07:13] <Burgwork> theCore, we are Canadian, we never see any of the nasty side of US Homeland Insecurity
[07:13] <LaserJock> hmm, I just don't see the problem, but then I'm an American so I'm already on the inside ;-)
[07:14] <Burgwork> for instance, canonical will pay extra for plane tickets to not fly through the US
[07:15] <LaserJock> is it really that bad? that just seems stupid IMO. but to each his own I guess
[07:17] <Burgwork> LaserJock, Canadians and US citizens are usually rather insulated as to the realities of what DHS does at the border
[07:18] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yes, but people come and go all the time. I don't think Canonical list somehow special in that regard.
[07:18] <LaserJock> s/list/is/
[07:19] <Burgwork> LaserJock, yes, but business travellers are slightly different and you don;t think that business travels who are non-white don't still get searched/given the 9th degree?
[07:20] <LaserJock> but they get in, they get out. sure it's a pain but they are going to exclude the US from hosting a dev conference over it?
[07:21] <Burgwork> yes, they are and it is a sound decision
[07:21] <Burgwork> in addition, in pratical matters, there are for more hackers in Europe and thus it is cheaper to hold a conference there
[07:22] <LaserJock> Burgwork: well, it is up to them. I can just choose to disagree ;-)
[07:24] <LaserJock> I just usually bite my tongue as I know that most people will probably disagree with me. I don't want to make a big stink over it. I just find it personally highly frustrating and not in the Ubuntu spirit. But I'll be done with it now and let you get  back to work.
[07:28] <Burgwork> ompaul, are you working on the website FAQ still?
[07:29] <ompaul> Burgwork, I want to - can we talk in about an hour
[07:29] <Burgwork> ompaul, just tell me when you are done working onit
[07:30] <ompaul> k
[07:33] <theCore> LaserJock, I sent my tarball
[07:33] <LaserJock> theCore: got it, thanks.
[07:46] <theCore> nice, LaserJock check `Screenshot 15: Yelp' in this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight4
[07:46] <theCore> Dapper is rocking like hell
[07:46] <LaserJock> theCore: cool 
[07:53] <LaserJock> it's been a fun ride with Dapper, Breezy was a little rough.
[08:24] <LaserJock> theCore: did you work on anything but getting_started.xml?
[08:30] <theCore> nope
[08:31] <ompaul> Burgwork, I had a question about the faq, is it reasonable for the FAQ to point to pages on the wiki?
[08:31] <theCore> LaserJock, so is it good or bad? (don't be gentle)
[08:32] <LaserJock> theCore: still looking, I'll tell you in a minute :-)
[08:32] <robotgeek_work> Burgwork: do you know if someone is working on the apt section in the Ubuntu Desktop Guide?
[08:32] <Burgwork> yes and no idea
[08:33] <theCore> here we go, I nuke my Ubuntu partition *boom*
[08:39] <LaserJock> theCore: I like it, I'm going to do some work on it and get it committed.
[08:40] <theCore> nice
[08:40] <theCore> I need to work on the diff and patch
[08:41] <theCore> section
[09:05] <theCore> LaserJock, you might find this article interesting: http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110008002
[09:06] <theCore> it's about thing we talked earlier (US security politics)
[09:07] <theCore> the thing*
[09:12] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, I haven't had to fly much but I've been through Denver, Kansas City, Dallas, and Washington D.C. in the last year. I've had the "extra attention" most of the time. I don't mind too much. I've never even been close to missing a flight because of security. It's a pain but security measures, wherever they are (banks, police stations, etc.), are rarely convenient.
[09:13] <theCore> I find Linux security measures are convenient :)
[09:13] <LaserJock> I don't
[09:14] <theCore> really?
[09:14] <theCore> I find them transparent
[09:14] <theCore> one password and that is
[09:15] <theCore> the rest is handled by the system
[09:15] <LaserJock> well, I guess it depends. At my uni I can't run chats, .torrents, and a lot of other things on standard ports because they are blocked
[09:15] <LaserJock> that is a case where it is inconvenient
[09:15] <LaserJock> also our department policy is that we have to log into the department server before we can ssh to our comps from the outside
[09:16] <Burgwork> I find airport security annoying and degrading
[09:16] <LaserJock> that is inconvenient as well
[09:16] <Burgwork> the assumption that I am a terrorist before I prove that i am not
[09:16] <theCore> well, that's company security mesures, not linux one
[09:16] <LaserJock> theCore: true, but it affects linux comps :(
[09:17] <theCore> not just linux computer, also windows
[09:17] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I think the idea is that the only way you can prove that you are is to blow something up and so it is more "safe" to prove you aren't. but that is just how I understand it
[09:19] <Burgwork> but 99.9% of the people flying are not terrorists
[09:20] <Burgwork> and the amount of money to stop a few deaths are not worth it, in my view
[09:20] <Burgwork> plus, reactive is the wrong way to end "terrorism"
[09:20] <theCore> that a problem in our societies, we don't accept dead
[09:21] <theCore> s/dead/deaths/
[09:22] <LaserJock> theCore: not from terrorists, no. I don't anyway
[09:22] <theCore> it would be a good idea to find the acceptable number of deaths for our lifestyle
[09:23] <LaserJock> theCore: from terrorists, 0
[09:23] <theCore> LaserJock, get used to it, as poor peoples will be crushed by the giant, the anger will grow
[09:25] <LaserJock> anyway, it probably isn't great to talk politics here, it is quite OT
[09:25] <theCore> yep
[09:25] <theCore> a
[09:25] <theCore> it's a pain in the ass
[09:27] <LaserJock> security sucks, but sometimes it's worth it. society just have to figure out the balance it is comfortable with.
[09:30] <theCore> the problem is that there always will be flaw in it, and those will be used by terrorists
[09:30] <theCore> so, for who the security is good for?
[09:32] <dsas> "them"
[09:33] <LaserJock> theCore: well, you gotta be realistic. Often you can do simple things to make it difficult for terrorists. You don't have to make it easy for them. Sure there are flaws, but that doesn't mean you abandon the whole thing.
[09:36] <theCore> LaserJock, I'm saying it they should abandon the whole thing. They should just try to make security transparent for the normal peoples. Perfect security doesn't exist, useless you close the airport
[09:37] <dm> hi guys, this place was advised as the best to offer help on the ubuntu project. what would you guys suggest is the best way to get involved
[09:37] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, I'm sure things could go better. Most of the airports in the US are fine. It isn't a problem. I think they just have scaling issues. It is much harder to do they the things they are doing at the major aiports.
[09:37] <Burgwork> dm, wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu
[09:38] <LaserJock> Burgwork: right
[09:38] <theCore> :)
[09:39] <theCore> dm, what are your skills?
[09:40] <dm> real noob to be honest, but i;m interested in getting involved. i have some experience in wireless networking, 
[09:40] <theCore> dm, are willing to learn a lot? ;)
[09:41] <dm> but not IRC etiquete, etc, 
[09:41] <dm> of course, always willing to learn, Linux has been my home every since problems with win
[09:42] <dm> tried almost every distribution, ubuntu seems to be the most user friendly. what was the idea behind the project? a easy to use debian?
[09:42] <theCore> dm, well we need help with the packaging guide, but if you never packaged before it will be hard for you ...
[09:43] <theCore> a linux distro that just works
[09:43] <dm> as in APT packaging? have done a little RPM unpacking, but i don;t expect that counts..
[09:43] <theCore> check file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html for the rest
[09:44] <LaserJock> dm: I think there is quite a bit of work on wireless networking in Ubuntu so I'm sure they need testers/bug reporters 
[09:44] <theCore> unpacking?
[09:44] <theCore> you mean installing, right?
[09:44] <dm> mmm ok, well i will to offer my help there,
[09:45] <theCore> the writing tips in the wiki is good place to start
[09:45] <dm> it this file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html, not the idea behind every *free* distro
[09:45] <theCore> officials docs are a bit harder 
[09:47] <dm> cool, ok, i will read the tips before i bother you guys any more with this,,, was just an idea on a friday night in with a beer. although i expect quite a bit of work/time is required on my part. i was just will to offer my help when avalible, i will read the docs and if i have an questions i know where to find you guys
[09:48] <theCore> dm, for example, because you tried *every* distro, you could write a wiki tell how ubuntu is different
[09:49] <theCore> dm, I'm glad to see you involved
[09:50] <dm> thats an interesting, idea, now i certainly did not try every distro, but i thought the idea *behind* every distro was similar to ubuntu's ethos... out of all the distro i personally tried ubuntu seemed the best from a noob point of view
[09:52] <dm> i would be more than happy to discuss my findings, and share my results. now the thing is ubuntu worked great for me where other distros let me down but...... other distros seem to work great for different sets of people. obvously hardware is issue.
[09:56] <nedschnittt> would anyone mind if I asked a quick question about a problem I'm having with the ubuntu installation or should I direct my question elsewhere?
[09:59] <nedschnittt> I was in the #ubuntu chat and I couldn't get a real answer...I'm still a bit of a noob when it comes to linux
[10:49] <robotgeek> mdke: ping
[11:02] <ompaul> is there a minimum hardware wiki page anyone can point me at?
[11:02] <ompaul> requirements that is
[11:03] <robotgeek> hey ompaul , one sec
[11:03] <ompaul> robotgeek, okay
[11:04] <Burgwork> ompaul, we should have a getting ubuntu page
[11:06] <robotgeek> ompaul: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
[11:06] <ompaul> thanks guys
[11:28] <ompaul> Burgwork, I have done what I can at the moment if anyone wants to have a look at -- the only thing I am concerned about is I took out the removal of xfree and made it sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[11:29] <Burgwork> ompaul, sorry, don't follow
[11:30] <ompaul> Burgwork, I have done what I can with the faq - there was a sudo apt-get remove --purge xserver-xfree I replaced it with the xorg line
[11:31] <ompaul> it may not be needed any more
[11:31] <Burgwork> ompaul, I would yank it entirely
[11:31] <Burgwork> replace it with something about xgl and aiglx
[11:31] <Burgwork> it is an faq
[11:31] <ompaul> okay 
[11:51] <robotgeek> heh, no one wants to commit my patches :)
[11:51] <LaserJock> well, if they weren't so huge ;-)
[11:52] <robotgeek> this time, they arent that big :)
[11:54] <robotgeek> konversation is nice
[11:54] <robotgeek> bigger screens are even nicer :)
[11:55] <LaserJock> yeah, konversation is ok. I still like irssi and xchat the best.
[11:56] <robotgeek> i prefer irssi too, just giving this a whirl
[11:57] <LaserJock> I like how in xchat you can see the away status of people
[11:57] <robotgeek> you can see in konversation too?
[11:58] <robotgeek> the ones away are lightened out?
[11:58] <crimsun> this firewall is wrecking my attempts to easily use svn.
[11:58] <LaserJock> crimsun: that stinks
[12:00] <robotgeek> hey crimsun, howdy
[12:00] <crimsun> 'lo robotgeek 
[12:00] <LaserJock> robotgeek: so far I haven't found a irc client for OSX as good as xchat/konversation
[12:00] <robotgeek> LaserJock: that colloqouy or whatever isn't good?