[12:10] <marcin`> got a question
[12:11] <marcin`> could someone tell me it this is acceptable to create package that could change config file created by another package?
[12:12] <marcin`> s/me it/me if it/
[12:12] <marcin`> ehh
[12:12] <marcin`> sorry I'm tired - my english sucks - but I hope you get my point
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[12:13] <crimsun> as in package X would alter a conffile of package Y?
[12:13] <marcin`> crimsun: yes
[12:13] <crimsun> I'm pretty sure directly doing so is a grave Policy violation
[12:14] <marcin`> I give an example - I would like to add language pack for some app
[12:15] <marcin`> and I need to add this language to some Array entry in main package config
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[12:15] <marcin`> is this acceptable? or policy violation?
[12:18] <crimsun> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-files.html#s10.7.4
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[12:19] <marcin`> crimsun: thanks
[12:20] <crimsun> marcin`: np
[12:22] <minghua> hello LaserJock
[12:23] <marcin`> crimsun: ok this is pretty clear
[12:24] <marcin`> crimsun: but now I don't know how to do one thing
[12:24] <marcin`> crimsun: maybe you could have some idea
[12:24] <marcin`> crimsun: thing is: I got package X that depends on A | B | C
[12:25] <marcin`> crimsun: so I can install any: A | B or C to satisfy dependency
[12:25] <marcin`> crimsun: then I got a little problem because I need to create some postinst script in X
[12:25] <marcin`> crimsun: because it has to set some settings in it's config file
[12:26] <marcin`> crimsun: it has to set if there is A or B or C installed
[12:26] <marcin`> crimsun: but it is doable
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[12:27] <marcin`> crimsun: problem is that for example I can install X + A + C
[12:27] <marcin`> crimsun: dependency will be ok
[12:27] <marcin`> crimsun: but then I can remove C - apt will not complain because there is still A
[12:27] <crimsun> marcin`: do A && B && C all share one conffile?
[12:27] <marcin`> crimsun: so still no problem with dependencies
[12:28] <marcin`> crimsun: but then how could I force X to update it's conffile because C is removed?
[12:28] <marcin`> crimsun: I think that X will own conffile and will create this with postinst
[12:29] <marcin`> crimsun: so postinst script could detect if for example there is A and C
[12:29] <marcin`> crimsun: and will set this in conffile
[12:30] <crimsun> that seems unwise architecturally
[12:31] <marcin`> crimsun: I know but don't have any better idea...
[12:31] <LaserJock> marcin`: why isn't this stuff just all in the same package?
[12:31] <marcin`> crimsun: and this is why I ask gere
[12:31] <marcin`> here
[12:31] <marcin`> LaserJock: because they got different sources, separate development and can be pretty big
[12:32] <crimsun> ok, do you have control over A, B, and C?
[12:32] <marcin`> crimsun: what do you mean 'control' ?
[12:32] <crimsun> marcin`: what is the relation of X to A | B | C ?
[12:33] <marcin`> crimsun: X needs at last one of them to work properly
[12:33] <marcin`> crimsun: let's say that X is application and A = english | B = german | C = polish lang packs
[12:34] <marcin`> crimsun: and then there has to be at least one for this app to work
[12:34] <marcin`> crimsun: but this application X has to know about them - it needs a list of languages in conffile
[12:35] <marcin`> crimsun: if I set up dependency X -> A | B | C then I could install only B
[12:35] <marcin`> crimsun: and because X depends on B then B will be installed first then X
[12:36] <minghua> one possible solution I can see is not making said config file a conffile
[12:36] <marcin`> crimsun: so, postinst in X will know that B is available and will add info about B to conffile
[12:36] <minghua> but provide a tool in X to generate said file according to other configurations
[12:37] <minghua> then call said tool in A, B, C 's postinst and postrm
[12:37] <marcin`> crimsun: but then if I'll add C and A there will be no way to add these to conffile owned by X
[12:37] <crimsun> yeah, that's the issue I'm trying to think of
[12:37] <marcin`> crimsun: without dpkg-reconfigure X
[12:37] <crimsun> because you don't necessarily have control over A's, B's, or C's prerm
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[12:43] <marcin`> minghua: could you tell more about your solution?
[12:43] <marcin`> minghua: I don't understand it yet
[12:43] <crimsun> that solution is akin to what language-pack-* do
[12:45] <marcin`> crimsun: yes but unfortunately not in 100%
[12:45] <crimsun> language-pack-* depend on locales, and each time a language-pack-* is installed, /usr/share/locales/install-language-pack is invoked
[12:45] <crimsun> yes, that's the issue of "control" that I'm referring to
[12:45] <marcin`> crimsun: because you can remove all language-pack- and applications that use languages
[12:45] <crimsun> because to have X function as you wish, you need to provide a means for A, B, and/or C to call some utility provided by X
[12:45] <marcin`> crimsun: will still work and will be set to default english
[12:46] <marcin`> crimsun: so you can remove all lang packs and for example gnome will still work
[12:46] <marcin`> crimsun: my X'app won't
[12:49] <minghua> marcin`: that doesn't really matter, you can enforce that one of A, B or C must be installed by dependency
[12:49] <minghua> to make it easier to talk, say your X needs a /etc/X.conf config file
[12:50] <marcin`> ok and?
[12:50] <minghua> you don't ship it in your X package, but provide a /usr/bin/update-X-config tool to generate it
[12:51] <minghua> then your A, B, C can each ship a /etc/X.conf.d/{A,B,C} respectively
[12:51] <minghua> the update-X-config tool can read these files in /etc/X.conf.d/ and generate a /etc/X.conf file accordingly
[12:52] <minghua> now you have X Depends: on A | B | C, and have A, B, and C's postinst and postrm scripts all call /usr/bin/update-X-config
[12:52] <minghua> I think your problem should be solved
[12:53] <marcin`> minghua: you are optimist ;)
[12:53] <crimsun> it's more problematic if he's dealing with actual language packs, though, because he doesn't control their post*
[12:53] <minghua> well, optimist for other people's problem :-)
[12:53] <marcin`> minghua: because this config file has to be in php syntax
[12:53] <minghua> crimsun: that's true, I am assuming he has complete control for all X, A, B and C packages
[12:54] <marcin`> minghua: I will have complete control over X,A,B,C and D-Z ;)
[12:55] <crimsun> oh, in that case the "problem" is moot
[12:55] <crimsun> I'm thinking more along the lines of actual language packs, where you might want to compare a hash of the mtime of /var/lib/locales/
[12:56] <crimsun> it sounds like your issue is much simpler :)
[12:57] <marcin`> hmm ok maybe but I see a little issue here...
[12:57] <marcin`> I got X and it provides 'configUpdateTool'
[12:58] <marcin`> and it depends on A | B | C and minghua says that they should call this configUpdateTool from their postinst?
[12:58] <marcin`> but they cannot while they don't depend on X :)
[12:59] <marcin`> and if X depends on A/B/C then one of them will be installed first ;)
[12:59] <crimsun> if A | B | C use a conffile that X owns, then they each must depend on X
[01:00] <marcin`> so X-> A | B | C and A->X B->X and so on?
[01:00] <minghua> hmm, good point
[01:00] <minghua> that would be a circular dependency
[01:00] <minghua> now I know why there is a libgtk2.0-bin package :-)
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[01:01] <LaserJock> hmm, I say upload it and see how many users complain ;-)
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[01:01] <crimsun> yep, that's why a lot of packages split out -base and -common, etc.
[01:01] <minghua> marcin`: split X to two packages, X and X-bin, X would depends on X-bin and A | B | C, but A, B, and C will only depend on X-bin, not X
[01:02] <minghua> LaserJock: that seems to be some maintainer's opnion as well, unfortunately :-(
[01:03] <LaserJock> minghua: I don't know that it would make it past REVU and elmo though
[01:03] <marcin`> minghua: and which package should own this config-tool? X or X-bin ?
[01:03] <crimsun> the latter
[01:04] <crimsun> (if you used the former, you'd be in precisely the predicament we've all described)
[01:04] <marcin`> I see smoke over my head....
[01:05] <marcin`> so I install X-bin first...
[01:05] <minghua> LaserJock: well, as a matter of fact, they do
[01:05] <marcin`> then X which depends on A/B/C so at least one of them will have to be installed right?
[01:06] <marcin`> so they will run some ConfTool from X-bin to generate config for X ?
[01:06] <marcin`> am I right?
[01:06] <minghua> LaserJock: I was sad to see the /usr/lib/pkgconfig/*.pc files installed in skim package, instead of libskim-dev, for example
[01:07] <minghua> apparently the maintainer hasn't tried using libskim-dev in a pbuilder himself
[01:08] <minghua> marcin`: roughly right, although you don't need to install X-bin first
[01:08] <minghua> I believe you can install them together
[01:09] <minghua> I think A depending X-bin will make sure X-bin is unpacked and configured when A's postinst runs (but I may be wrong)
[01:09] <marcin`> ok let's assume
[01:09] <minghua> now after saying that, apparently postrm is not a good place as when running A's postrm X-bin can be already removed...
[01:09] <marcin`> I run: apt-get install X
[01:10] <marcin`> it will install X-bin, A, and X
[01:10] <marcin`> and it's ok
[01:10] <crimsun> in that case you want X-bin to be a PreDepends of A,B,C
[01:10] <marcin`> then I want to install B so I run
[01:10] <marcin`> apt-get install B
[01:11] <marcin`> X-bin is already there so this will install without problem
[01:11] <marcin`> but then how will X know that B is installed?
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[01:12] <marcin`> B will have to update configuration?
[01:12] <crimsun> actually no, don't use PreDepends, as that's a special corner case
[01:13] <crimsun> Policy 7.2 states that if configuring X is delayed until all of X-bin, A, B, and C are configured
[01:13] <crimsun> s/if//
[01:13] <crimsun> or in your case, until X and at least one of A | B | C
[01:13] <crimsun> argh
[01:13] <crimsun> until X-bin and at least one of A | B | C
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[01:36] <atie_> hi, all
[01:36] <LaserJock> hi atie_
[01:37] <atie_> hi, LaserJock.
[01:37] <atie_> minghua, ping.
[01:56] <Se7h> hi
[01:57] <LaserJock> hi Se7h
[01:57] <Se7h> hey there LaserJock
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[02:24] <atie_> After writing uvf exception to motu ml, then do I need to upload source package to REVU by myself?
[02:24] <crimsun> is it a sync, a merge, or a new upstream not in Debian?
[02:24] <crimsun> (syncs don't need to be uploaded to REVU)
[02:25] <atie_> Updated version is in Debian.
[02:25] <crimsun> so it's a sync or a merge?
[02:25] <atie_> It's sync, I guess.
[02:25] <crimsun> then there's no need to upload to REVU
[02:25] <freeflying> atie_: hi
[02:26] <atie_> freeflying, hi
[02:26] <atie_> crimsun, then just wait for approval?
[02:26] <crimsun> yes
[02:26] <freeflying> atie_: ttf-alee has new upstream released
[02:36] <atie_> freeflying, yes. I wrote uvf-exception for that.
[02:42] <minghua> atie_: pong
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[02:54] <atie_> minghua, thank for the mail.
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[03:06] <minghua> atie_: ah, sure, you are welcome :-)
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[03:06] <zakame> hi MOTUs
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[03:17] <atie_> minghua, does corrected one look OK?
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[03:23] <Hobbsee> bug 8681
[03:23] <Ubugtu> malone bug 8681 in control-center capplets "Changing keyboard layouts in keyboard configuration applet gives an error" [Normal,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/8681
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[03:38] <minghua> atie_: haven't looked carefully yet, will reply tonight
[03:39] <atie_> minghua, thank you.
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[03:43] <LaserJock> hi bmonty
[03:43] <bmonty> hey LaserJock
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[05:33] <Psi-Jack> Hmm. Where's the basic docs on building a new package? :/
[05:34] <LaserJock> Psi-Jack: I'd check out some of the links at wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources
[05:34] <Psi-Jack> I think I found it. Finally. ;)
[05:35] <crimsun> that looks familiar, LaserJock ;)
[05:36] <Psi-Jack> I'm trying to upgrade mldonkey-server to 2.7.3 for me. heh
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[05:36] <LaserJock> crimsun: yep
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[07:16] <zakame> afternoon MOTUs
[07:18] <Gloubiboulga> morning zakame ;)
[07:18] <zakame> heya Gloubiboulga! :D
[07:19] <Hobbsee> hey zakame
[07:19] <Hobbsee> hey Gloubiboulga
[07:19] <Gloubiboulga> hi Hobbsee
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[07:22] <zakame> heya Hobbsee!
[07:23] <Hobbsee> :)
[07:23] <zakame> built what?
[07:24] <Hobbsee> kdenetwork
[07:24] <Hobbsee> trying to patch it, we'll see if it works
[07:34] <Hobbsee> heh, doesnt work - wont even build
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[02:02] <zakame> evening MOTUs
[02:02] <freeflying> zakame: evening
[02:03] <zakame> hi freeflying :)
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[03:03] <xerxas> hi
[03:03] <xerxas> we're already in the freeze ?
[03:03] <xerxas> oops
[03:03] <xerxas> topic
[03:03] <xerxas> sorry guys
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[08:11] <LaserJock> ok, I must admit I'm a little confused about UVF exceptions
[08:12] <LaserJock> it seems like anything that isn't going to cause problems is getting an exception. I thought it had to be important, bug-fix only changes.
[08:25] <bmonty> I think that if a package doesn't have any packages that depend on it, the UVF exception is a formality
[08:25] <LaserJock> hmm, well I wish I had known that earlier
[08:26] <bmonty> why is that?
[08:26] <LaserJock> because there are quite a few science related packages that I could've gotten in
[08:27] <bmonty> LaserJock: well there is always dapper+1 :)
[08:28] <LaserJock> bmonty: yes, I just wish I had known. I guess I was taking UVF more seriously than I needed to
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[08:31] <Kyral> LaserJock: just get them in Debian and then Sync them when Dapper+1 opens :D
[08:32] <LaserJock> Kyral: I'm talking about syncing from Debian now. I think we could more updated science packages if I had know earlier
[08:32] <Kyral> ah
[08:33] <Kyral> soerry lol
[08:34] <LaserJock> hmm, yeah. we are up to 98 outdated packages in Dapper for MOTU Science.
[08:35] <Kyral> heh
[08:35] <Kyral> I may cleanup EasyChem soon
[08:36] <Kyral> like in debian/
[08:36] <Kyral> oh...are any outstanding accepted UVF Exceptions going to be brought in?
[08:36] <LaserJock> Kyral: what do you mean?
[08:37] <Kyral> Daniel accepted the UVFE for GTKEdit a couple weeks ago but I haven't seen it sync'd
[08:38] <Kyral> or Accepted
[08:39] <LaserJock> Kyral: well the syncs and NEW are pretty backed up
[08:39] <Kyral> ah
[08:39] <LaserJock> are UVF exceptions harder to get after FF?
[08:40] <LaserJock> I might try to get a few in before Dapper is released
[08:53] <Kyral> hmm
[08:53] <Kyral> I should write a script to build the newest XFCE from SVN
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[10:15] <toma> Kyral: out of curiousity, do you know how many users use xfce as primary desktop?
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[10:20] <marcin`> do I need to be MOTU to post comment to REVU?
[10:20] <Gloubiboulga> marcin`, I think so
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[10:21] <marcin`> Gloubiboulga: comments to my own packages too :) ?
[10:22] <Gloubiboulga> oh
[10:22] <Gloubiboulga> you have to login to comment your packages
[10:23] <marcin`> I'm in - and what then?
[10:25] <Gloubiboulga> marcin`, the comment form is on the bottom of your package page
[10:25] <Gloubiboulga> if you're correctly logged in, you can see and use it
[10:26] <marcin`> ehhh I see... it's because I'm comaintainer and maintainer did last upload
[10:26] <marcin`> so I cannot post comment to this package
[10:26] <marcin`> ok thanks
[10:26] <Gloubiboulga> np
[10:26] <marcin`> now I know what to do
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[10:39] <marcin`> another question - is REVU for new packages only?
[10:39] <jpatrick> no
[10:39] <marcin`> what if I would like to repackage some existing apps?
[10:39] <jpatrick> not if someone's working on it
[10:40] <marcin`> working -> you mean in REVU?
[10:41] <jpatrick> recently updated
[10:41] <marcin`> jpatrick: recently updated in REVU or in universe?
[10:41] <jpatrick> revu
[10:42] <TomaszD> excuse, there was talk on the motu list to update psi to 0.10. I still don't see Psi updated and it's been a big while. Any news on this?
[10:42] <marcin`> jpatrick: ok
[10:43] <marcin`> jpatrick: but what if there is some package but I would like to prepare the same software but in different way?
[10:43] <jpatrick> I think no
[10:43] <marcin`> jpatrick: for example: I would like to use CDBS while currently someone doesn't want to... etc. ?
[10:43] <marcin`> jpatrick: what then?
[10:44] <jpatrick> well you'll overwrite they're fiels
[10:44] <bmonty> marcin`: why repackage an app just to change the packaging system?
[10:45] <marcin`> bmonty: it was just an example
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[10:46] <bmonty> marcin`: it is better to coordinate your changes with the person who packaged the app in the first place
[10:47] <marcin`> bmonty: sure but what if we don't agre?
[10:47] <marcin`> agree?
[10:47] <marcin`> bmonty: and have different visions?
[10:49] <bmonty> marcin`: is this a hypothetical question, or are you currently trying to make a change the packager doesn't agree with
[10:50] <marcin`> bmonty: I'm not sure if I want to... because I'm tired, annoyed etc. so I'll propably just leave this
[10:50] <marcin`> bmonty: but there is such possibility
[10:50] <marcin`> bmonty: just asking now
[10:51] <bmonty> marcin`: I guess I would say that in general you should coordinate your changes, but if you can't resolve them you should discuss your proposed changes here
[10:51] <marcin`> bmonty: it's pretty hard while I'm not MOTU (yet)
[10:52] <marcin`> bmonty: and cannot comment uploads
[10:53] <jpatrick> email to packager then
[10:54] <marcin`> jpatrick: sure but it's not good idea when packager rejects changes right?
[10:54] <jpatrick> it's up to him
[10:54] <jpatrick> or her
[10:56] <spacey> if i want to add items to the gnome menu systemwide, where do i have to throw the desktop files? /usr/share/applications?
[10:57] <Gloubiboulga> spacey, yes
[10:57] <spacey> do i need to run a scrip to update the menu?
[10:57] <spacey> or is it automagicly
[10:58] <Gloubiboulga> I think you have to run dh_desktop (not sure of this)
[11:00] <spacey> update-desktop-database
[11:00] <spacey> seems to be called from dh_desktop
[11:03] <spacey> ah crap
[11:03] <spacey> not that easy
[11:05] <Gloubiboulga> what's the problem spacey ?
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[11:06] <spacey> well its not about packaging
[11:07] <spacey> just wanted to quickly add a few items systemwide
[11:09] <LaserJock_away> hi minghua
[11:10] <Gloubiboulga> LaserJock, hi
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[11:11] <Gloubiboulga> LaserJock, I've sent a mail to the debian mentors ML to find a sponsor for my texmaker package
[11:11] <minghua> hi LaserJock
[11:11] <LaserJock> hi Gloubiboulga
[11:11] <LaserJock> Gloubiboulga: I saw that, great
[11:11] <Gloubiboulga> I hope someone will be interested :)
[11:11] <minghua> Gloubiboulga: yeah, just saw that, good luck
[11:11] <Gloubiboulga> thanks minghua :)
[11:11] <Gloubiboulga> my first debian contribution...
[11:14] <LaserJock> Gloubiboulga: yeah, I realy hope that gets through. I know there were quite a few posts on the ubuntufourms asking for a packag.
=== minghua is glad to see texmaker 1.3-1 package having a much simpler dependency
=== jpatrick really has to get his packages to debian
[11:16] <Gloubiboulga> I've also requested an UVF exception for this package
[11:16] <Gloubiboulga> I've also uploaded on REVU today
[11:16] <Gloubiboulga> +it
[11:17] <LaserJock> Gloubiboulga: I got about 4 emails from REVU this morning :-)
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[11:17] <Gloubiboulga> LaserJock, yeah, very minor fixe each time... but 4 uploads needed
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[11:30] <desrt> tseng; !
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[11:31] <desrt> tseng; muine is a real pain in the ass for a few reasons right now
[11:38] <tseng> desrt: sorry to hear
[11:38] <tseng> desrt: my local copy is elite
[11:38] <tseng> desrt: ill upload it as soon as i get freeze aproval
[11:38] <desrt> tseng; rocking.
[11:38] <tseng> desrt: :D
[11:39] <desrt> tseng; does it have gst0.10 and working dbus?
[11:39] <tseng> desrt: mine does
[11:39] <desrt> i <3 you
[11:39] <tseng> desrt: im not sure if ill do gst0.10
[11:39] <tseng> its in cvs
[11:39] <desrt> you need to
[11:39] <tseng> i might backport it
[11:39] <desrt> gst 0.8 doesn't exist in dapper, really
[11:39] <tseng> or snapshot
[11:39] <tseng> its not much of a backport, its well contained
[11:39] <desrt> i just debfostered my system today and it uninstalled all of my gst0.8 plugins because they're no longer part of ubuntu-desktop
[11:39] <tseng> just diff and go
[11:40] <desrt> so i had to reinstall alsa and vorbis to get muine going again
[11:40] <tseng> yeah i have another bug on that
[11:40] <tseng> someone actually managed to get a system without playbin
[11:40] <tseng> for 0.8
[11:40] <desrt> the solution is not to introduce additional dependencies
[11:40] <desrt> the solution is 0.10 :)
[11:40] <tseng> I agree.
[11:41] <desrt> do you have anything for me to test?
[11:41] <tseng> not quite
[11:41] <desrt> k
[11:41] <tseng> in /usr/bin i have a copy of the 0.8.4 package from debian
[11:42] <tseng> in /usr/local/bin i have a build of HEAD with gst 0.10
[11:42] <tseng> something in between is what ill upload
[11:42] <desrt> i have an irrational aversion to /usr/local
[11:42] <desrt> probably as a result of years of putting up with freebsd abusing my filesystem
[11:42] <tseng> i dont like to build random cvs crack in /usr
[11:42] <tseng> but yeah, bsd gets it not quite right
[11:42] <tseng> /usr/local/etc makes me stabby
[11:43] <desrt> :)
[11:43] <desrt> freebsd makes me feel like /usr/local isn't for me anymore
[11:43] <desrt> so i use /opt/gnome now
[11:43] <tseng> we have a "network device" at work called an f5 bigip
[11:43] <tseng> runs freebsd
[11:43] <tseng> its a ssl load balancer
[11:43] <tseng> complete crack
[11:44] <tseng> after the config file gets to a few thousand lines the web interface falls over and your configuration tool is classic vi
[11:44] <tseng> real men use ^h
[11:47] <desrt> I WANT TO FUCKING MURDER EVOLUTION
[11:47] <desrt> ahem
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[11:47] <tseng> i gave up evolution for lent
[11:48] <desrt> it sucks so fucking bad these days
[11:48] <desrt> it's seriously turning into a heaping pile of dung
[11:48] <tseng> go outsourcing
[11:48] <desrt> and thunderbird is so bloody ugly
[11:51] <LaserJock> I like thunderbird cause I can use it in linux, windows, and OSX but I haven't found a "Reply to list" button :(
[11:51] <dolson> same thing with Gmail for me.. no reply to list.. argh. stupid that only the Ubuntu lists don't set the ReplyTo
[11:51] <minghua> mutt rules ;-)
[11:52] <dolson> hey, are any of you guys using Xgl with Gnome?
[11:55] <desrt> i was.  it's freakin' awesome
[11:55] <dolson> yes, it is awesome.
[11:55] <dolson> but I want to know if someone is using it right now and could test if MouseKeys works for them
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[11:56] <dolson> X crashes when I try to move the mouse cursor with Gnome mousekeys.
[11:57] <dolson> this is frustrating
[11:58] <tepsipakki> dolson: it crashed on me when I tried to write something with the shift down
[11:58] <tepsipakki> gave up then
[11:58] <dolson> lol
[11:58] <dolson> don't use caps!
[11:58] <tepsipakki> heh
[11:58] <tepsipakki> don't use environment variables :)
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[11:59] <dolson> argh, I can't take this anymore
[12:00] <LaserJock> hi crimsun
[12:00] <dolson> brb
[12:00] <LaserJock> right now I'm avoiding X anyway ;-) CLI for me
[12:00] <crimsun> hi LaserJock
[12:01] <crimsun> that's funny, I'm having my stint w/ Kubuntu ;-)
[12:01] <LaserJock> crimsun: cool