[05:10] <setuid> infinity: Why no manpage for usplash?
[05:10] <setuid> tsk tsk!
[05:11] <setuid> And some wacky README about BOGL, but not usplash
[05:12] <setuid> oh, n/m... but the missing manpage is kind of a buggefr
[05:12] <setuid> er, bugger
[05:13] <lh317> i think I'm of the mind bootup should be so fast tehre is no need for a splash screen ;)
[05:14] <lh317> and on a server, why does it even have a monitor? ;)
[05:14] <setuid> I was just poking at it
[05:14] <setuid> it doesn't do anything anyway
[07:18] <bintut> is ubuntu already good as production server?
[07:35] <lh317> define "good"
[07:35] <lh317> and "production"
[07:36] <bintut> mail server.. stable for production.. supported by community especially on security fixes..
[07:38] <fabbione> yes
[07:38] <lh317> well, the latter is questionable, as you have to run universe, adn universe isn't 'offically supported'
[07:39] <bintut> fabbione: you mean, ubuntu is already much like debian for its support?
[07:39] <lh317> if you need an actual contracted support for security, you're stuck with RHEL or SUEL pretty much.
[07:39] <fabbione> lh317: wrong
[07:39] <lh317> sine when have they reversed their universe policy?
[07:39] <fabbione> bintut: we do provide security updates for everything that is in main
[07:40] <fabbione> bintut: and that's for free
[07:40] <fabbione> bintut: time is about 18 months for breezy and 5 years for dapper
[07:40] <fabbione> bintut: if you need way more than that, i suggest you discuss a possible support contract with canonical
[07:40] <fabbione> lh317: no changes in that direction
[07:41] <lh317> fabbione: then what I said is true.
[07:41] <lh317> you have to run universe, unless all you want is just postfix or exim.
 if you need an actual contracted support for security, you're stuck with RHEL or SUEL pretty much.
[07:41] <fabbione> this is wrong
[07:41] <fabbione> because Canonical do offer contracted support
[07:41] <lh317> fabbione: for universe?
[07:41] <fabbione> and security for main has been always free
[07:41] <fabbione> lh317: if you need support for universe you can get it if you pay
[07:41] <lh317> curiosity, link?
[07:41] <fabbione> but that's something you need to agree with Canonical
[07:42] <bintut> fabbione: i'm about to setup a server.. i can actually support my server but not the security fixes
[07:42] <fabbione> www.canonical.com ?
[07:42] <lh317> link to pay support contracts for universe?
[07:42] <bintut> brb.. i have a phone call
[07:42] <fabbione> bintut: if your server is made only by pkgs in main, you get security for free
[07:42] <bintut> fabbione: i'll talk to you later..
[07:42] <fabbione> lh317: that's something you discuss on a per contract base
[07:42] <bintut> fabbione: yeah..
[07:43] <lh317> fabbione: which means if you're not willing to deal, you're stuck.  I'll amend then, if you need OOB support, you're stuck with RHEL or SUEL.
[07:44] <fabbione> lh317: ok.. let's put it in another way since you don't understand...
[07:44] <lh317> can I buy a ubuntu cd and get unvierse support OOB?
[07:44] <fabbione> there are no ubuntu cd you can buy
[07:44] <lh317> No.  Therefore, if you need out of box security contract for the full offering, you arent running Ubuntu.
[07:44] <fabbione> ubuntu is free
[07:45] <lh317> i didn't literally mean buy a cd.
[07:45] <fabbione> jeee you are so way out of your mind
[07:45] <lh317> i can't get a universe support contract without negoiating.
[07:45] <lh317> I can go to redhat.com and buy a contract with jsut a credit card and a mouse click.
[07:45] <fabbione> no because that would utterly expensive
[07:45] <lh317> that is a big deal for some groups.
[07:45] <fabbione> how many packages are in rh?
[07:45] <fabbione> how many in universe?
[07:46] <fabbione> make a comparison
[07:46] <fabbione> than
[07:46] <fabbione> then
[07:46] <fabbione> think this way
[07:46] <fabbione> you have all main for freee
[07:46] <lh317> fabbione: compared main to rhel, especially for a server.
[07:46] <fabbione> that's about dunno.. 4400 binary pkgs?
[07:46] <fabbione> if you need one or two pkgs from universe you pay only for those
[07:46] <fabbione> instead of paying BIGFAT amount for stuff you don't even need to care about
[07:47] <fabbione> but of course..
[07:47] <fabbione> if you want to pay for everything you don't need.. go redhat
[07:47] <lh317> ... you obviously missed the whole OOB part.
[07:47] <lh317> if I'm installing a box for a customer, negoiating a support contract for a single box is out of the question.
[07:48] <lh317> they won't do it, adn I can't act for them.
[07:49] <lh317> of course, tbf, RHEL is a double-edged sword anyway.  they have a package that can do what you want.  But it isn't the package you want or the version you want.
[07:50] <bintut> fabbione: in that case, if i'll use dapper now as a server, the packages i fethed from the universe will not be updated to the latest security fixes?
[07:50] <fabbione> as i said many other times.. you choose what fits you best :)
[07:50] <fabbione> bintut: universe is not supported by default. so no.
[07:50] <fabbione> bintut: if you need support for universe you want to talk with Canonical
[07:51] <fabbione> bintut: also.. take into account that Dapper is still in development
[07:51] <bintut> fabbione: who provide the packages for universe?  is it canonical or the community?
[07:51] <fabbione> bintut: community
[07:51] <bintut> fabbione: yeah, i know that dapper is in dev stage
[07:51] <fabbione> bintut: but if you need support for them, Canonical will provide them for you
[07:52] <fabbione> bintut: you get the idea.. i guess
[07:52] <bintut> fabbione: are you connected with canonical?
[07:52] <fabbione> bintut: yes. i have been working for canonical since the beginning of light
[07:52] <bintut> fabbione: cool!  :)
[07:53] <fabbione> bintut: but i am not the person you want to talk about contracts or support.. really
[07:53] <fabbione> bintut: there is an email address on canonical.com
[07:54] <bintut> fabbione: i'll ask you personally and hopefully you won't be biased: do you think that the community that provides the packages in the universe will provide their own security updates for dapper later on?
[07:54] <fabbione> bintut: i can tell from experience that it happens sporadicaly
[07:54] <fabbione> but not on a regular base
[07:55] <fabbione> i mean i do use universe packages myself
[07:56] <fabbione> but i know that i can't rely on them on supersecure servers
[07:56] <bintut> fabbione: is there additional patches that are being applied when packaging software in the universe?
[07:56] <fabbione> http://www.ubuntu.com/support
[07:56] <bintut> fabbione: yeah
[07:56] <fabbione> bintut: probably.. that depends from package to package
[07:56] <fabbione> there are about 11000 pkgs in universe.. i somehow lack the time to look at all of them :
[07:57] <bintut> fabbione: how will i know the server packages that will be included in the main source for dapper?
[07:57] <fabbione> there is a FAQ for that..
[07:57] <fabbione> let me find the link
[07:57] <bintut> fabbione: yes, please..
[07:57] <fabbione> i am not a big www/wiki lover
[07:57] <lh317> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/ubuntu-server-dapper/server
[07:57] <fabbione> that one
[07:57] <lh317> is what I had, dunno if it's the most update source or not.
[07:57] <fabbione> thanks lh317
[07:57] <fabbione> it is
[07:58] <lh317> they still need to seriously beef their mail server package sets.
[07:58] <fabbione> lh317: did you file wishlist bugs?
[07:58] <fabbione> or do you expect people to read your mind?
[07:59] <fabbione> (on the note: that list will be considered final only 15 days from release)
[07:59] <fabbione> (more or lesS)
[07:59] <lh317> no, I haven't, but it should be obvious that SA, one of amavais or mailscanner, etc ought to be included.
[08:00] <fabbione> that's exactly where community should be
[08:00] <fabbione> there is no such thing as obvious
[08:00] <lh317> ...
[08:00] <bintut> same comment here..
[08:01] <fabbione> lh317: you want SA and whatever scanner.. i don't.. somebody else wants it but in another brand/pkg versions
[08:01] <fabbione> (just an example of course)
[08:01] <fabbione> so there is no obviuos...
[08:01] <lh317> well, I understand that.  that's one thing.  But I haven't seen a, "pick which scanner will be in drake" thread or discussion or request of the community either, or even a bug to vote on.
[08:01] <fabbione> if community doesn't express wishes,,
[08:02] <fabbione> so consider yourself at fault for not bringing up the topic
[08:02] <lh317> fabbione: in this case, this is fundamental enough something should be selected.  Now, if you picked opposite my chocie and I didn't voice, i'd stfu.  but this is like selling a car and saying, tires optional IMO.
[08:02] <fabbione> fundamental to you
[08:02] <fabbione> and your working env
[08:03] <fabbione> are you aware that in some states/companies, spam filters are illegal?
[08:03] <lh317> i can't think of that many email environments where mailscanning isn't essential.
[08:03] <fabbione> i do :)
[08:03] <lh317> i'm aware.
[08:04] <bintut> postfix, sa, amavis-ng, clamav, openldap, samba, openvpn, squid, dansguardian, sarg, nagios, snort, ejabberd, etc..
[08:05] <fabbione> anyway.. time to wake up wife and start weekend :)
[08:05] <bintut> where can i post my request? sorry, i'm an ubuntu/debian newbie.. i'm a mandriva user for years..