[12:46] <j^> will ubuntu switch from firefox-dev to xulrunner for dapper+1?
[12:47] <Burglaptop> j^: might. Would be nice
[12:47] <Burglaptop> then we can ship epiphany and not FF
[12:47] <j^> i dont want epiphany
[12:47] <j^> i want ff
[12:48] <dolson> ick
[12:49] <Burglaptop> it is not about what any of us want, it is about what is a good default for users
[12:50] <j^> and imho epiphany is not a good default
[12:50] <j^> its firefox
[12:50] <j^> ff has momentum
[12:51] <Burglaptop> to be honest, users don't care and don't know. My company (Userful) sells FC4-based machines for public use (to libraries, etc.) and we ship Epiphany
[12:51] <Burglaptop> never heard or had anything feedback that is negative
[12:53] <j^> Burglaptop its about switching, not shiping firefox, you loose everybody that just switched to firefox and liked it.
[12:54] <j^> but no need to repeat that enless thread from ubuntu-dev on irc 
[12:54] <Burglaptop> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/epiphany-list/2005-October/msg00077.html
[12:54] <dolson> I don't think that someone is going to install Linux and not know how to use Firefox
[12:55] <Burglaptop> that is restricting your market
[12:55] <Burglaptop> and what about those that get Ubuntu pre-installed for them?
[12:56] <dolson> ?? a lot of Windows users are installing Firefox on their own now
[12:56] <Burglaptop> 10% at most
[12:56] <dolson> a browser is a browser is a browser
[12:57] <Burglaptop> indeed, hence the arguement FOR epipahny
[12:57] <dolson> if it just worked, then yeah, I'd agree
[12:58] <Burglaptop> currently FF takes up about 1/2 of Diziet's time. That is huge for a relatively minor package. And that doesn't even include the security issues or the trademark ones...
[12:58] <crimsun> getting off-topic, but epiphany uses ff anyhow.
[12:58] <dolson> ok, you have convinced me. so why haven't we already switched to Epiphany for Dapper?
[12:59] <Burglaptop> dolson: readup about xulrunner
[12:59] <Burglaptop> currently you need to have a copy of either FF or Moz installed to get gecko
[12:59] <Burglaptop> which is also needed for yelp and a few other packages
[01:00] <Burglaptop> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EpiphanyDefaultBrowser
[01:00] <dolson> so people who have been using Ubuntu all this time will be thrown for a loop when the next version comes out and Firefox is gone
[01:01] <Burglaptop> they would be able to install it, just like with Thunderbird now
[01:02] <dolson> so we assume that users are too stupid to use Firefox but are smart enough to install it if it's suddenly changed on them?
[01:02] <Burglaptop> it is not about relative intelligence
[01:02] <Burglaptop> it is about good defaults
[01:02] <Burglaptop> my company dogfoods, so we have all linux desktops
[01:03] <Burglaptop> I am the only person who uses Linux at home. None of the six of us have any extensions installed
[01:03] <dolson> I remember when I read about Epiphany becoming the new default, and so I installed it, and I used it for about an hour, and it continually crashed
[01:03] <Burglaptop> that is a bug and I have never seen that
[01:04] <dolson> it was on a relatively new Breezy install. I haven't tried it on Dapper yet, but I will.
[01:04] <Burglaptop> basically, I have seen real Windows users using a Linux desktop for 6 months straight and seen where they curse and where they don't
[01:04] <dolson> I may as well get started moving over my bookmarks and passwords and stuff now
[01:05] <dolson> to be honest, I hate both browsers equally
[01:05] <Burglaptop> I switch to epiphany full time about four months ago. I hated it at first but then discovered all the cool things (like better bookmark handling) and love it
[01:05] <dolson> the last time I used it, it didn't have any icons on my bookmark panel.. does it have that now?
[01:06] <dolson> I haven't used a good browser since the old Galeon 1.x series. And then it got screwed over when they bumped it up to 2.0 and then it seems to have been forgotten about
[01:07] <HiddenWolf> dolson: the galeon developers are out of time, and porting galeon functionality as plugins to epiphany, basically merging the browsers
[01:07] <dolson> that's good news
[01:07] <HiddenWolf> Burglaptop: I have a similar story, It took me some time to get used to it, but I like epi a lot now.
[01:07] <dolson> I haven't used Galeon for a long long time.. I think I was still using Mandrake when I last used it
[01:07] <HiddenWolf> There are some things I sorely miss still, but I'll wait on the plugins. :)
[01:08] <dolson> Firefox used to crash on me randomly, just like Epiphany did
[01:08] <dolson> but 1.5 seems to not have had that issue (yet)
[01:09] <Burglaptop> not being able to drag tabs in FF 1 sucked and the visuals for tab dragging in Epip "feel" more smooth
[01:11] <dolson> another thing I remember about Epiphany was there seemed to be a lot of wasted screen space
[01:11] <Burglaptop> never seen that
[01:11] <Burglaptop> anyway *if* we switch, it will stir up a giant firestorm of controversy
[01:12] <Burglaptop> we will probably lose users
[01:12] <dolson> in Firefox I can move pretty much anything anywhere. like, I have the File Edit, etc menu, and on the same bar, I have the Address bar and google bar.. can you do that in Epiphany?
[01:12] <Burglaptop> should be able to
[01:12] <StevenK> Hang on, didn't we already punt mozilla to universe in Dapper?
[01:12] <Burglaptop> StevenK: we did
[01:13] <j^> Burglaptop so will we get users by switching to epiphany?
[01:13] <Burglaptop> part of ReducingDuplication
[01:13] <dolson> is that a wise idea then? risk losing users just for a browser?
[01:13] <StevenK> Which means using xulrunner is pretty much moot, right?
[01:13] <Burglaptop> StevenK: xulrunner != mozilla
[01:13] <StevenK> I'm well aware of that
[01:13] <Burglaptop> dolson, j^, we will provide a better user experience for the vast majority
[01:13] <Burglaptop> the people we actually need to target, the average computer user
[01:14] <j^> can i install the annodex plugin? (http://annodex.net/)
[01:14] <Burglaptop> and in the end, it is not a pissing content about getting most users
[01:14] <Burglaptop> j^: this is all hot air right now, so any questions like that are premature
[01:14] <dolson> I know that, but why would you want to annoy existing users?
[01:15] <dolson> part of the reason I switched from debian was that everything good to use was there by default, meaning gnome, gaim, firefox,etc
[01:15] <Burglaptop> because I fell Epiphany provides a better out of the box experinece for users
[01:15] <Burglaptop> s/fell/feel
[01:15] <dolson> and then if someone wants to remove it and install firefox, it'll take ubuntu-desktop with it, right?
[01:16] <Burglaptop> dolson: just like they would with evolution now
[01:16] <Burglaptop> and -desktop is not important after install
[01:17] <dolson> for upgrades it is. so we'll end up downloading a bunch of extra stuff just to delete it again and download yet more stuff
[01:17] <StevenK> ubuntu-desktop can Depend on ephiphany | firefox
[01:17] <dolson> is evolution being replaced too?
[01:17] <StevenK> And you can educate aptitude to upgrade firefox and leave ephiphany uninstalled.
[01:17] <Burglaptop> dolson: evolution will never be replaced by thunderbird
[01:17] <StevenK> Besides, ephiphany is hard to type.
[01:17] <Burglaptop> regardless, this is all hot air
[01:17] <dolson> I didn't specify what it would be replaced by
[01:18] <dolson> it's not an official gnome project, is it?
[01:18] <Burglaptop> evo? yes it is
[01:18] <dolson> ah, ok
[01:18] <Burglaptop> since 2.8 I think
[01:18] <dolson> so evo = kmail for gnome
[01:18] <Burglaptop> yes
[01:19] <dolson> alright, I didn't know it was adopted as their own
[01:19] <dolson> I still don't like it. I use gmail only, so having evolution junk running in the background is useless to me
[01:19] <dolson> but I think it's the better software
[01:20] <Burglaptop> evolution-data-server != evolution
[01:20] <Burglaptop> e-d-s is used by more than evo
[01:20] <Burglaptop> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointThirteen/Desktop
[01:20] <dolson> yeah, I know
[01:20] <Burglaptop> this is getting off-topic, so we should probably end it here
[01:20] <dolson> It takes two hours for the calendar to open up while it searches for appointments when I click on the date in the gnome panel
[01:21] <Burglaptop> again, file bugs, this is not the place to discuss such issues
[01:21] <Burglaptop> upstream if you have a fix
[01:21] <dolson> right, sorry.
[01:22] <Burglaptop> np
[01:39] <SEJeff> How do I get gdb to run a command with arguments to the command?
[01:40] <StevenK> SEJeff: set args=''
[01:41] <StevenK> Without the =, sorry.
[01:42] <SEJeff> so something like, gdb /usr/bin/executable then set args '--sync' then run?
[01:58] <StevenK> SEJeff: Yes
[01:58] <SEJeff> thanks
[01:59] <StevenK> SEJeff: And setting breaks and stuff before run if needed
[02:01] <StevenK> doko: Er, it seems I didn't check hard enough, moinmoin-common Replaces and Conflicts moin.
[02:01] <desrt> SEJeff; much easier way
[02:01] <desrt> gdb --args /usr/bin/executable these are your arguments
[02:02] <SEJeff> desrt, thanks, but xchat-gnome still dies and doesn't give gdb anything remotely useful
[02:02] <desrt> then just (gdb) run
[02:02] <desrt> not my problem :)
[02:02] <desrt> try blowing away your config files
[02:03] <SEJeff> It is a bug with xchat-gnome and the nvidia driver. says the server doesn't support the operation
[02:03] <SEJeff> malone bug #31705
[02:03] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31705 in xchat-gnome "Crash when turning on transparent" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/31705
[02:34] <Kyral> kinda stupid question, but what Volume Manager is Dapper Current using (need to know so I can pass it to Thunar)
[02:35] <crimsun> gnome-volume-manager
[02:35] <crimsun> if you mean Ubuntu Dapper
[02:35] <Kyral> I meant in general.At the low level.
[02:36] <crimsun> meaning pmount, hal, and udev?
[02:36] <Kyral> yah
[02:40] <Kyral> I didn't have libhal-storage-dev installed..thats why it wasn't picking up on it lol
[12:40] <mdke> jpatrick, around?
[12:40] <jpatrick> mdke: yes, sir
[12:40] <mdke> jpatrick, ah cool. would you join #ubuntu-doc?
[12:40] <jpatrick> there
[02:57] <tenco> why is anacron and cron installed on ubuntu by default?
[03:09] <Kamion> Riddell: FYI, there are some substantial changes in my espresso archive you'll want to keep up with; I've moved the copy and config stages to debconffilter, which involves adding a debconf_progress_region method to your frontend and changing all the stuff around progress_loop (or whatever your equivalent is)
[03:21] <tuhl> hi all! where do I find a xen 3.0.1 kernel for ubunut?
[03:22] <mdke> Kamion, do you think it might be desirable to include the ubuntu css that I've applied to the installation-guide online in the packages too? 
[03:22] <Kamion> mdke: probably not, don't want to diverge where I don't have to
[03:22] <mdke> Kamion, no problem, just thought I'd ask.
[03:23] <Kamion> it looks good though
[03:23] <mdke> Kamion, :)
[03:42] <tuhl> hi! any help for activating the composite extension and Xorg-air?
[03:44] <mjg59> tuhl: Not in here, no
[03:44] <mjg59> tuhl: #ubuntu is a better bet
[03:46] <tseng> mjg59: could you hit me with a clue about my multimedia keys
[03:46] <tseng> mjg59: volume down has stopped sending a keypress event (dell 600m)
[03:46] <tseng> volume up, rather
[03:50] <mjg59> tseng: Uhm.
[03:50] <mjg59> tseng: Nothing shows up if you hit it on the console while running showkeys ?
[03:51] <tseng> hm i was using xev
[03:52] <tseng> mjg59: nope, nothing on showkey either
[03:52] <tseng> only for vol down and mute
[03:52] <mjg59> tseng: Sounds like a hardware problem
[03:52] <mjg59> I'm fairly sure we haven't changed anything that would touch that
[03:53] <tseng> ok.
[03:53] <mjg59> tseng: Test under a Breezy livecd?
[03:53] <tseng> sure
[04:04] <Lathiat> kerry?
[04:05] <tseng> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1820
[04:05] <Lathiat> ah, knew i'd seen it somewhere
[04:07] <jpatrick> not me
[06:59] <pitti> hi ogra 
[06:59] <ogra> hey pitti 
[07:04] <ogra> pitti, would you mind taking a look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/esd.patch if you find time ?
[07:05] <pitti> ogra: I can't judge whether it works, but it looks innocent enough
[07:06] <pitti> ogra: but isn't ESPEAKER already checked in a different place?
[07:06] <ogra> oki :)
[07:06] <pitti> ogra: I faintly remember that we already applied a similar patch in the past
[07:06] <ogra> might be, i just need to aviod the clashing filenames for the sockets
[07:06] <pitti> ogra: ah, right, that patch is just for determining the socket name
[07:07] <ogra> you applied the getuid change: sprintf (dirname, "/tmp/.esd%s-%i", audiodev, getuid());
[07:07] <ogra> but that doesnt help if you run with the same user several times :)
[07:07] <pitti> yes, I wasn't aware where that patch actually applied (socket, not output device)
[07:07] <pitti> yes, looks reasonable then
[07:08] <pitti> ogra: be aware that it'll break with third-party apps
[07:08] <ogra> are there apps accessing the socket directly apart from esd ?
[07:08] <pitti> ogra: i. e. commercial apps which don't use our libesd, but just look for /tmp/.esd
[07:08] <pitti> ogra: but we never particularly worried about these :)
[07:09] <ogra> but that will break already through the getuid change ;)
[07:09] <Treenaks> Argh! The logout dialog somehow triggers my mind into thinking 'Touch screen!'
[07:09] <pitti> right
[07:09] <ogra> i'm just setting audiodev ...
[07:09] <Treenaks> must be because they look like the (touch screen) train ticket machines here in .nl
[07:10] <Treenaks> pitti: thanks :)
[07:10] <ogra> perhaps we should make the buttons bigger :)
[07:11] <Treenaks> ogra: sure, make them full-screen#
[07:11] <Treenaks> ogra: saves you having to code the fade-effect too ;)
[07:11] <ogra> yeah :)
[07:12] <Treenaks> ogra: did you see the new moviegotchis I caught at FOSDEM? :)
[07:12] <ogra> nah, url ?
[07:13] <Treenaks> ogra: foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople
[07:13] <Treenaks> (ross, daniels, ploum and sladen x2)
[07:14] <Treenaks> and: the movies work GREAT in dapper + totem-gstreamer + firefox
[07:14] <Treenaks> all sync problems, etc. have magically gone away, it seems
[07:14] <Treenaks> \o/ gstreamer people
[07:19] <tseng> Treenaks: they really do work great
[07:20] <Treenaks> yeah, I think gst 0.10 rocks :)
[08:06] <Riddell> Kamion: ok, will look at that tomorrow
[08:06] <Riddell> tseng: no
[08:33] <sivang> Treenaks: have you been able to make emacs work under xgl?
[08:34] <sivang> (or anyone elase know if Kinnison solved ths issue and/or how?)
[08:38] <_lemsx1_> hello all
[08:38] <jpatrick> hello _lemsx1_ 
[08:38] <_lemsx1_> is there a way that somebody can apply this patch to the ubuntu artwiz-cursor/xfonts package? this is an old bug with a patch
[08:38] <_lemsx1_> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xfonts-artwiz/+bug/3255
[08:38] <Ubugtu> malone bug 3255 in xfonts-artwiz "fonts install in non-standard directory" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[08:39] <_lemsx1_> jpatrick: hello
[08:39] <_lemsx1_> i started fixing just that same bug and then found it in malone... next time i'll look first ;-)
[08:45] <simira> what package do I meld a bug on when I don't get the external monitor working for my laptop?
[08:45] <jpatrick> xorg?
[08:45] <simira> possibly
[08:47] <Kamion> _lemsx1_: I'll have a quick look now
[08:49] <Kamion> ugh, what possessed the reporter to patch version 1.3 anyway
[08:50] <Kamion> ah, epoch, never mind me
[08:52] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: thanks. because i'm trying to apply the patch and it's giving me problems
[08:53] <Kamion> that use of update-alternatives is evil
[08:53] <Kamion> tempted to drop that bit of the patch until somebody sorts it out properly
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: the idea is the dpkg-divert should be done in /usr/share/X11/fonts/misc
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: dpkg-divert --package artwiz-cursor --remove --rename --divert \
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> 		/usr/share/X11/fonts/misc/cursor.pcf.gz-artwiz \
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> 		/usr/share/X11/fonts/misc/cursor.pcf.gz
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> sorry for the paste
[08:54] <_lemsx1_> you get the idea
[08:54] <Kamion> dpkg-divert != update-alternatives; I'm not talking about dpkg-divert
[08:55] <Kamion> I understand the code
[08:55] <_lemsx1_> then an artwiz-cursor.theme needs to be created
[08:55] <Kamion> but using update-alternatives --set / update-alternatives --auto is fundamentally wrong
[08:55] <_lemsx1_> ok, update-alternative needs to install a link for x-cursor-theme to some real .theme file (since the core.theme is not part of Ubuntu's Xorg package)
[08:56] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: i agree. i didn't see that --auto stuff
[08:56] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: i almost had my package done before i saw this
[08:56] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: and i was taking a similar approach
[09:00] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: ok, i just diff the dpkg-source -x (extract) of the original package as is in ubuntu now (dapper)
[09:00] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: against the stuff i had done so far... can i give you this patch?
[09:00] <Kamion> use debdiff, attach to bug
[09:00] <Kamion> not sure even *more* big monolithic patches will actually help though :)
[09:01] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: this is a small patch
[09:01] <Kamion> is it a subset of Seth's?
[09:01] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: exactly
[09:01] <Kamion> no need then
[09:01] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: ok
[09:02] <Kamion> I just went through Seth's patch and trimmed it down a bit
[09:02] <Kamion> I'll upload once I've tested it
[09:02] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: thanks
[09:03] <_lemsx1_> Kamion: i'll stop this none sense here then ;-) put my efforts somewhere else
[09:23] <jpatrick> there's a 0.4.2pre2 verison of gpac in multiverse that can't build because of dep problems however malone #32362 fixes it, if I upload will it be considered as NEW?
[09:23] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32362 in gpac "Unmet dependency" [Normal,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32362
[09:32] <setuid> doh
[09:32] <setuid> Weak references are not implemented in the version of perl at /usr/lib/perl5/AptPkg/hash.pm line 8
[09:32] <setuid> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/lib/perl5/AptPkg/hash.pm line 8.
[09:35] <setuid> wow, apt-file is broken 
[09:35] <setuid> Server file no newer than local file `/var/cache/apt/Contents-i386.gz' -- not retrieving.
[09:35] <setuid> # ls -l /var/cache/apt/Contents-i386.gz
[09:35] <setuid> dolson: /var/cache/apt/Contents-i386.gz: No such file or directory
[09:35] <setuid> s/dolson/ls:/
[09:36] <setuid> How do I know which package a specific file is in? 
[09:37] <setuid> (normally, I'd use dlocate or apt-file, but they're both broken in dapper) 
[09:38] <dolson> auto-apt search file
[09:41] <glatzor> setuid: dpkg -S FILE
[09:42] <Seveas> setuid, maybe the server has no Contents-i386.gz at all 
[09:50] <sivang> anybody here uses emacs and has tab completion enabled / working / know how to set it up?
[09:59] <Kamion>       gpac |  0.2.0-0.0 | dapper/multiverse | amd64, i386, powerpc
[09:59] <Kamion>       gpac | 0.4.0+rc2-0.0 | dapper/multiverse | source
[10:00] <Kamion> jpatrick: no, won't be NEW unless it creates new binaries
[10:00] <Kamion> as in, binaries whose names are new to dapper
[10:00] <jpatrick> Kamion: I figured that out and uploaded
[10:01] <Kamion> Seveas: it has Contents-*, but it hasn't been generated since January 19
[10:01] <Kamion> I assume that was just rsynced over from the katie-based archive
[10:01] <Kamion> yeah, same timestamps
[10:37] <desrt> where did the nice logout dialog go?
[10:39] <tsdgeos> are fixes for dapper accepted or is it already frozen?
[10:40] <simira> I think it is still accepted
[10:41] <xxenon> hmm, I installed gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly as documented, but I still get no mp3 support in xine. Any clue ?
[10:41] <desrt> xxenon; you're seriously in the wrong channel
[10:41] <desrt> xxenon; you mean to ask that in #ubuntu
[10:41] <xxenon> ok ..
[10:41] <xxenon> well, Im testing flight 4
[10:41] <desrt> see topic:  Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper)
[10:42] <tsdgeos> does aspell-ca has a mantainer? do you need one? I filed a bug against it but don't know if there's anyone that can do the work, if not i'd be willing to take the job
[10:47] <desrt> seb128; i know you're lurking
[11:01] <ploum> hello
[11:15] <ploum> Hi JanC 
[11:15] <ploum> I didn't see you at FOSDEM
[11:15] <JanC> hi ploum, you did see mee 
[11:15] <ploum> Arf !
[11:16] <ploum> Have you said that you was JanC ?
[11:16] <ploum> or just your real name ?
[11:16] <JanC> I introduced myself as Jan Claeys
[11:16] <ploum> OKI !
[11:16] <ploum> I didn't make the link
[11:16] <ploum> (altought it was obious)
[11:16] <ploum> sorrrryyyy !
[11:16] <ploum> (I've meet so many people)
[11:16] <JanC> no problem
[11:17] <ploum> I remember :-)
[11:17] <JanC> jdub already created a list?  ;-)
[11:18] <ploum> he will do tonight !
[11:18] <JanC> great
[11:18] <ploum> Have you seen his final talk ?
[11:18] <ploum> JanC it was really great to see so much people for ubuntu-be !
[11:18] <JanC> yeah, and I hope the video of jeff's talk will be released
[11:19] <ploum> awesome, awesome
[11:19] <JanC> (someone was filming it I saw)
[11:19] <ploum> cool :-)
[11:19] <ploum> I didn't hear much feedback from nederlandstaligen after the ubuntu-be meeting
[11:20] <JanC> there weren't that many there I guess, but those that were are really interested
[11:20] <JanC> and some others are interested too  
[11:20] <ploum> cool :-)
[11:21] <JanC> some of the people that I know are interested were at other talks or even helping out with the organisation
[11:21] <ploum> I understand
[11:22] <ploum> But it's cool they are interested
[11:22] <JanC> also some people didn't come to fosdem--not everybody is a geek! ;-)
[11:22] <ploum> the only bad point is the bad guy who was late and who was always joking during my speech
[11:22] <ploum> (follow my eyes)
[11:22] <JanC> hehe  :P
[11:23] <ploum> Someone started a forum to discuss about ubuntu-be between us. I'm not sure it's a good idea but it exists : http://www.carolinux.be/
[11:23] <ploum> you have to register
[11:23] <JanC> I don't really like web forums  ;-)
[11:26] <JanC> ploum: do you know the people who registered ubuntu-linux.be or ubuntulinux.be ?
[11:27] <JanC> to me it seems like they only try to profit from ubuntu's popularity  :-(
[11:27] <JanC> hm ubuntu-linux.be is now redirected to a webmail
[11:28] <JanC> but www.ubuntulinux.be still redirects to a company website that doesn't even mention ubuntu...