[12:21] <LaserJock> any TB members awake? When will the next TB meeting be?
[12:25] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: TB requires Mark and other busy developers, likely a while now
[12:26] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: are they going to announce the day/time ahead of time?
[12:27] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: one assumes so
[12:27] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: hmm, well that is frustrating. I'll just keep checking the wiki and fridge then :-)
[12:28] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: mark is currently in Asia and the development team has just been rushing to FF, so I suspect that taking some time off for a TB meeting has kind of fallen to the side
[12:30] <LaserJock> hmm, it's just that I'm on the agenda and I trying to schedule it :(
[07:24] <pitti> Good morning
[07:24] <ajmitch_> morning pitti 
[07:36] <Burglaptop> salut ajmitch_, pitti
[07:37] <fabbione> morning guys
[07:37] <pitti> hi Burglaptop 
[07:40] <ajmitch_> hi fabbione, Burglaptop 
[07:46] <Burglaptop> damn, this is best twisting of SABDFL yet: SABDFL, Self Admiring, Buys Debian For Loosechange
[07:47] <marcin`> Burglaptop: cool but not true unfortunately
[07:57] <Burglaptop> mako_ !
[07:58] <ajmitch_> hey mako
[07:59] <mako> Burglaptop, ajmitch_: hi guys
[08:00] <mako> Burglaptop: i got the intro and the appendix in
[08:00] <mako> Burglaptop: yesterday
[08:03] <Burglaptop> mako: ahead of me then. I gave up fighting with OO.o in dapper yesterday
[08:03] <Burglaptop> will try it on my work Fedora machine
[08:03] <mako> Burglaptop: oh my god, tell me about it
[08:04] <mako> Burglaptop: it's bad enough when it works fine
[08:04] <mako> Burglaptop: i tried with oo1.1 and nearly died of frustration.. oo2 was bad but possible
[08:04] <Burglaptop> oo.o may be the one application that drives certain people in my office to windows
[08:05] <mako> Burglaptop: my laptop is breezy :)
[08:05] <mako> for just these sorts of occations
[08:05] <Burglaptop> I need to test flight 4, but am waiting for later this week, cause I can't afford to have it mess up at this time
[08:06] <mako> well, i'm off for the night
[08:06] <mako> g'night
[08:15] <dholbach> good morning
[08:19] <TheMuso> /c/
[08:19] <TheMuso> Morning dholbach 
[08:20] <dholbach> hey TheMuso!
[08:25] <pitti> hi freeflying
[08:26] <Burglaptop> dholbach: aren't random and useless threads  on -devel fun?'
[08:26] <ajmitch_> Burglaptop: NO!
[08:26] <dholbach> Burglaptop: if you ask me like that, NO
[08:27] <Burglaptop> lol
[08:27] <freeflying> hi pitti 
[08:31] <freeflying> pitti: dose language-pack-zh depend on im-switch now ?
[08:35] <pitti> freeflying: Depends: mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-cn, mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-tw, openoffice.org2-l10n-zh-cn, openoffice.org2-l10n-zh-tw, openoffice.org2-help-zh-cn, openoffice.org2-help-zh-tw, scim-chewing, scim-pinyin, scim-tables-zh
[08:35] <pitti> freeflying: I can add the dependency explicitly if it doesn't make sense to add it to the scim modules directly
[08:36] <freeflying> pitti: I'd prefer to add to the language-pack than scim 
[08:36] <pitti> freeflying: (it's language-support-zh btw, not -pack)
[08:36] <freeflying> pitti: y
[08:36] <pitti> freeflying: ok, I'll do that then
[08:37] <freeflying> pitti: how can we setup IM variable ?
[08:38] <pitti> freeflying: what's that, an environment variable?
[08:38] <freeflying> pitti: ya
[08:38] <pitti> freeflying: not at all in general
[08:39] <freeflying> pitti: may those be added by postinstall of language-pack-zh/ko/ja
[08:39] <pitti> we can for new user accounts, but not for existing ones
[08:40] <freeflying> then only CJK or any other language user need scim can have those variable set up
[08:43] <pitti> what does it say?
[08:43] <pitti> i. e. what does the variable control?
[08:44] <freeflying> pitti: like XMODIFIERS  GTK_IM_MODULE  QT_IM_MODULE
[08:46] <pitti> freeflying: hm, that still doesn't make sense to me
[08:46] <pitti> freeflying: I don't know about scim very well, but if we can figure out the value of these variables automatically, then why do we need them at all?
[08:46] <pitti> freeflying: can't scim just deduce the necessary values from the current locale?
[08:47] <pitti> freeflying: also, we don't want scim for all locales
[08:47] <freeflying> pitti: scim an not set up those variable , so we need add them 
[08:48] <pitti> freeflying: we can make it to :)
[08:48] <pitti> hm, which program actually evaluates XMODIFIERS?
[08:48] <pitti> and GTK_IM_MODULE?
[08:49] <freeflying> I think let language-pach-zh/ja/ko add those , it will be a better choice than anyothers
[08:49] <pitti> XMODIFIERS -> does xorg itself need that?
[08:49] <pitti> freeflying: well, add where?
[08:49] <freeflying> pitti: add to /etc/X11/Xsession.d  
[08:50] <pitti> hmm
[08:50] <pitti> as I already said, the language-support packages currently can't do that
[08:51] <pitti> they can be made to, of course
[08:51] <pitti> but it needs some work
[08:51] <freeflying> pitti: :)
[08:51] <pitti> and it would still seem more logical to use the locale setting for that
[08:51] <freeflying> pitti: if you agree on that , then we just need wait
[08:52] <pitti> well, I still don't see the point of statically adding a fixed variable value
[08:52] <pitti> it just feels so utterly useless
[08:52] <pitti> and as soon as you would install more than one support package, they would even conflict
[08:53] <freeflying> or we'd look for other measure 
[08:53] <fabbione> Migrating old dbus init symlinks to runlevel 12 ...
[08:53] <fabbione> ???
[08:53] <fabbione> runlevel 12???
[08:53] <pitti> freeflying:  i. e. you'd get the asciibetically last language instead of the one you actually want
[08:53] <pitti> fabbione: well, priority :)
[08:54] <pitti> fabbione: I need to merge current dbus from Debian to get some bug fixes anyway
[08:54] <pitti> fabbione: I'll fix that when I do that, too
[08:54] <fabbione> ok thanks :)
[08:55] <freeflying> pitti: the scim/skim will be in ubuntu/kubntu'cd defautly ?
[08:56] <pitti> freeflying: yes
[08:56] <pitti> freeflying: and the modules will be pulled in in l-support-*
[08:56] <pitti> freeflying: i. e. users will get it automatically (if they agree to download language support)
[08:57] <freeflying> pitti: y,but how to make scim/skim work automatically ? that what I wanna solve 
[08:58] <pitti> freeflying: right, I see
[08:58] <pitti> freeflying: well, they worked OOTB for me, but apparently not for others
[08:58] <pitti> freeflying: I thought im-switch did the selection automatically?
[09:01] <freeflying> pitti: maybe we'd use im-swich setup what we wanna according to locales
[09:05] <pitti> freeflying: that's what I would consider the most straightforward and integrated solution
[09:05] <pitti> freeflying: it doesn't do this already?
[09:05] <pitti> freeflying: I thought this was the main point of the package
[09:06] <freeflying> pitti: still need work on im-switch and scim too
[09:26] <pitti> sjoerd: can I get your hal 0.5.7 orig.tar.gz from somewhere? I'd like to use the same one for ubuntu
[10:01] <Burglaptop> Kinnison: darling, you there?
[10:05] <seb128> desrt, Burglaptop: thanks for the rant on the panel, nothing like that to start the week :p
[10:05] <Burglaptop> seb128: it was not a rant
[10:06] <seb128> Burglaptop: it really pisses me, that has been discussed n times and I'm against the hammer and the wall which is really not funny
[10:06] <Burglaptop> seb128: a rant would look like this "j00 loosers made my panel stoopid, loolz. I want to get my old dialog back, etc.)
[10:06] <seb128> Burglaptop: Mark is decided on that, so I've just to read people ranting
[10:06] <seb128> that's quite what the bug is in fact
[10:07] <Burglaptop> seb128: the decision at UBZ was made without seeing what upstream has done in this cycle
[10:07] <seb128> I've mailed Mark since, without screenshot of what has been done, etc
[10:07] <Burglaptop> had the current upstream logout/shutdown dialogues existed at UBZ, I would not have supported the change
[10:07] <seb128> he doesn't like upstream stuff and he decided to go with that dialog
[10:07] <Burglaptop> seb128: I just cc'ed mark on the bug
[10:07] <seb128> that's not going to work, but feel free
[10:08] <Burglaptop> mark has to have his one foolish decision per cycle I guess :)
[10:08] <seb128> note that the icons are a moo point
[10:08] <seb128> they are going to be changed before dapper
[10:08] <Burglaptop> by march 9th?
[10:08] <seb128> yep
[10:08] <seb128> with the new icon theme probably
[10:09] <Burglaptop> still doesn't solve point 1 and 2
[10:09] <seb128> there is some icons which are going to be make by disagners if I got it correctly
[10:09] <seb128> point 1 beeing "the cancel button looks like a buttons", a good
[10:10] <seb128> I though it was looking like a IRC window :p
[10:10] <seb128> the icons change on mouseover, which is better looking that having a border around every icon by default imho
[10:11] <Burglaptop> seb128: no it is not
[10:11] <Burglaptop> unless people actually mouse over, they will not realize it is a bug
[10:11] <Burglaptop> s/bug/button
[10:11] <Burglaptop> and *no* other button anywhere in gnome/kde does that
[10:11] <seb128> for the 2 rows, we have been trying to argue with Mark at UBZ and since that we should have 2 dialogs like window, he'll not heard about it
[10:12] <seb128> nothing I can do
[10:12] <Burglaptop> seb128: mostly the dialog "feels" wrong. It is hard to quantify
[10:12] <seb128> it feels really right to Mark ... :)
[10:12] <seb128> according to the comment he sent during the cycle by mail
[10:12] <ploum> hello
[10:12] <seb128> hi ploum
[10:12] <Burglaptop> salut ploum
[10:13] <Burglaptop> anyway, I have to sleep
[10:13] <seb128> Burglaptop: if you don't know that yet it's likely that you will learn that moving Mark from his position when he's decided is not something easy
[10:13] <ploum> seb128, we talked about you yesterday night !
[10:13] <ploum> Good night..
[10:13] <seb128> at fosdem? :)
[10:13] <ploum> yes
[10:14] <ploum> Jeff was explaining the wonderful SEBuild system
[10:14] <ploum> :-)
[10:15] <ploum> We have talked about Epiphany as default browser in a pub and the table juste behind us was occupied by the Firefox team :-D
[10:16] <ploum> it was really fun
[10:16] <ploum> Jeff's talk was awesome !
[10:16] <Treenaks> ploum: so is your video :P
[10:17] <ploum> awesome, awesome !  (say it with an australian accent)
[10:17] <ploum> Treenaks, hem... I've learned with that video that my mother read planet.ubuntu....
[10:17] <ploum> hem
[10:17] <seb128> Jeff talks are always great :)
[10:17] <Treenaks> ploum: LOL
[10:18] <sjoerd> pitti: http://beast.luon.net/~sjoerd/hal_0.5.7.orig.tar.gz
[10:18] <pitti> sjoerd: thank you
[10:18] <ploum> I think that Jeff has something that I can't have, even with really hard work
[10:18] <ploum> Treenaks, you have to send me a picture of you. You NEED an hackergotchi !
[10:19] <sjoerd> pitti: dbus qt stuff failing sucked up my time friday, that's why hal in debian isn't updated yet :(.. 
[10:20] <ploum> seb128, I hope to see you in real life too !
[10:20] <ploum> :-)
[10:21] <ploum> Jeff promises to make ubuntu-be list yesterday...
[10:21] <ploum> ..but with belgian beer it can be "ubuntu-qsdfg" or anything...
[10:21] <ploum> I'm worried
[10:23] <seb128> :)
[10:25] <ploum> So, I unfortunatly have a lot of ironing to do...
[10:25] <ploum> Have a good day all
[10:40] <zakame> hello all
[10:45] <jdub> boh, missed ploum
[10:46] <Keybuk> seb128: yesterday I was trying to burn an Audio CD with serpentine, and it SEGV'd every time I clicked "Write to Disc"
[10:46] <Keybuk> I tried with just a single ogg file, and it crashed then too
[10:46] <seb128> Keybuk: package welcome :)
[10:46] <seb128> ups
[10:46] <seb128> backtrace
[10:46] <seb128> Keybuk: I think that might be to some gst0.8 package interfering
[10:46] <Keybuk> seb128: you'll have to wait a week for one of those, it was an "as I was going out of the door" thing
[10:46] <Keybuk> but it was every damned time
[10:47] <Keybuk> could be, I still have 0.8 installed -- can I purge that?
[10:47] <simira> Keybuk :) Freezing yet?
[10:47] <seb128> yep you can
[10:47] <seb128> hey jdub :)
[10:47] <jdub> morning sebuild ;)
[10:48] <jdub> er 0.10
[10:48] <jsgotangco> awesome
[10:48] <Keybuk> I used k3b in the end, and gods that is a terrible program
[10:48] <fabbione> pitti:      + Build mono bindings as arch indep.
[10:48] <Keybuk> and just as I thought it couldn't get any worse, it played the most stupid wav file to tell me the burning was finished
[10:48] <Keybuk> I nearly died
[10:48] <fabbione> meh.. that's going to screw arches with no mono?
[10:48] <Keybuk> fortunately I was trying to explain the difference between GNOME and KDE at the time
[10:49] <Keybuk> and that did it quite neatly
[10:49] <pitti> fabbione: we have this for a while, and Debian adopted it
[10:49] <StevenK> "See, KDE looks and acts like crap."
[10:49] <fabbione> pitti: ok :)
[10:49] <pitti> fabbione: true, the packages won't be too useful there
[10:50] <fabbione> ok
[10:51] <jdub> jsgotangco: cool!
[10:54] <janimo> seb128, a heads-up: I'll upload an evince-gtk package these days and conflicts/replace will be needed with evince. If you don't have other evincep kg changes pending I'll put a patch in LP ok?
[10:56] <seb128> janimo: how does that affect evince?
[10:56] <seb128> evince-gtk is going to be universe?
[10:56] <janimo> seb128, uses the same common files
[10:56] <janimo> no hopefully in main as it is part of xubuntu
[10:56] <janimo> ideally it would be a patch in evince/debian/patches but hey
[10:56] <seb128> no way
[10:56] <janimo> oh, no ideally it would be upstream
[10:56] <seb128> I will not change evince for that, we already talked about it
[10:57] <janimo> seb128, I know I don't expect you to do what is ideal for me ;)
[10:57] <seb128> anyway if pitti is happy about duplication
[10:57] <janimo> so you'll just need the conf/repl on evince-gtk binary and you're all set
[10:57] <janimo> I am sure nobody is ahppy about duplication
[10:57] <seb128> and as far we don't get the real evince package flooded by your custom hacks on it
[10:58] <janimo> but I am not happy about gnome depends
[10:58] <pitti> it would be better to build a -gtk and a -gnome package from the same source
[10:58] <pitti> janimo: you could use xpdf :)
[10:58] <mvo> can't it be made a configure thing in the source? or can't it be seperated cleanly?
[10:58] <janimo> pitti, no way :)
[10:59] <seb128> pitti: I'm not going to cripple evince and create maintainship work for me at every upstream change no, that's a some hundred lines of code change and I don't want to spend hours updating it when upstream roll a new tarball
[10:59] <janimo> I have a patch wich add ifdef gnomes and --disable-gnome in configure so it is clean
[10:59] <pitti> janimo: anyway, evince itself is no big threat; so oh well...
[10:59] <seb128> mvo: that's a custom patch, that's not trivial work to follow upstream changes probably
[10:59] <pitti> seb128: I didn't intend you to :)
[10:59] <janimo> seb128, you're blowing this way out of proportion but anyway
[10:59] <pitti> seb128: I mean that upstream shuold offer a configure switch, then we can do multibuild
[10:59] <janimo> I am prtty sure other gnome bits have more ubuntu patches against upstream
[11:00] <seb128> janimo: I've already too much work, I'm not subscribing for extra tasks when I don't need to :)
[11:00] <mvo> seb128: sure, but having the gnome bits seperated clean and with a configure option, it would probably increase the chances of upstream acceptance
[11:00] <seb128> janimo: yeah, and I know too well that's creating update work
[11:00] <janimo> seb128, I would have taken the extra work or even full evince work instead from you :)
[11:00] <mvo> janimo: how big is the patch?
[11:00] <janimo> mvo, 1000 line diff
[11:00] <seb128> janimo: so I would have to wait on you to update to the new versions and that would slow us down
[11:01] <seb128> updating evince is 10min of work
[11:01] <janimo> seb128, I am updating against CVS quite often
[11:01] <janimo> and besides it would only affect the build of the -gtk package if the diff b0rked right?
[11:01] <seb128> no, if -gtk doesn't build the source package doesn't build
[11:01] <seb128> so if you are in VAC 2 weeks and a no package cames?
[11:02] <mvo> well, you could disable the -gtk package then until it get fixed by someone else ...
[11:02] <janimo> seb128, ok.
[11:02] <seb128> I either have to wait for you, to update the patch myself, or to drop -gtk
[11:02] <janimo> well drop gtk then in that case
[11:02] <janimo> anyway I probably have the patch updated by the time a release comes
[11:02] <seb128> mvo: if we are going to drop and put -gtk again, I like as well having a separate source package
[11:02] <janimo> I assume you do not package CVS snapshots
[11:02] <jdub> whoa, we totally need the firefox open dialogue back
[11:02] <seb128> janimo: I do sometime, depending of the bugs fixed and how upstream is reactive to roll new tarballs
[11:02] <janimo> seb128, not quite, a new source package is different in the pool
[11:03] <seb128> jdub: it breaks epiphany :/
[11:03] <jdub> seb128: the removal?
[11:03] <Keybuk> apparently I need to click "tomboy" to restart my computer :p
[11:03] <seb128> jdub: yep, do "do you want to open ... save" dialog
[11:03] <janimo> seb128, pitti whatever is good for you, I just want evince-gtk in the archive ;)
[11:03] <seb128> jdub: and it puts everything to /tmp
[11:03] <Treenaks> Keybuk: well, do it! :)
[11:03] <mvo> seb128: I was thinking about it from a "maintain in stable" perspective, but I guess that point is moot anyway because usually it's libpoppler that needs updating (e..g security) and not evince*. so I shut up now :)
[11:04] <jdub> seb128: erk!
[11:04] <janimo> mvo, sorry I did not get around to gconf/ini in update-manager
[11:04] <seb128> jdub: it breaks everything using gecko in fact
[11:04] <janimo> yet
[11:04] <mvo> janimo: the window hasn't yet totally closed :)
[11:04] <mvo> Keybuk: hrm, no icon from notification-daemon? 
[11:05] <seb128> jdub: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/32934
[11:05] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32934 in firefox "auto-download breaks embedders" [Normal,Confirmed]  
[11:05] <seb128> mvo: you want to stop using gconf?
[11:06] <Keybuk> mvo: yeah, but it lept to the left after the window popped up
[11:06] <janimo> seb128, either that or gnome-python needs splitting
[11:06] <Keybuk> one of the panel applets must have got wider
[11:06] <Keybuk> probably the clock or weather applet
[11:06] <janimo> seb128, update-manager pulls in whole gnome libs too just bec of gconf
[11:06] <seb128> right
[11:06] <mvo> seb128: only if janimo provides a clean patch for it. the idea is that update manager can than be used in xubuntu as well
[11:06] <janimo> it's not right ;)
[11:07] <seb128> but we should not start crippling Ubuntu because some derivative can't stand GNOME
[11:07] <janimo> seb128, I was just thinking that you'll say something with 'crippling' in it
[11:07] <jdub> seb128: can we get gimp-svg into dektop seed?
[11:07] <janimo> seb128, update-manager should be an ubuntu updater not a gnome one, please stop being such a bigot :)
[11:08] <seb128> jdub: fine with me, but you should ask to mdz or Kamion, I'm not deciding of that :)
[11:08] <seb128> janimo: please don't call be a bigot
[11:08] <mvo> seb128: this is really a minor change, it's about storing ~10 conf options
[11:08] <seb128> janimo: I didn't insult you
[11:08] <janimo> seb128, excuse-moi I had a smiley too in there just in case
[11:08] <seb128> mvo: right, but should I move nautilus away from gconf next? :p
[11:09] <janimo> seb128, no need to xubuuntu won't use nautilus
[11:09] <Lathiat> no they have thunar :)
[11:09] <seb128> mvo: we can port the whole GNOME using ini format if you take it that way
[11:09] <seb128> janimo: there is not only xubuntu :)
[11:09] <janimo> seb128, please stop exagerrating
[11:09] <jdub> mvo: we shouldn't *remove* gconf support from it, or we'll lose the administrative features
[11:09] <janimo> I only want the places which are not obviously gnome to not depend on it
[11:10] <seb128> janimo: I would rather see mvo fixing Ubuntu bugs than spending efforts moving away from GNOME to please derivates to be honest
[11:10] <janimo> seb128, realize that gconf and gnome-client small as they are  usually are enough for apps to be rewrtittem from scracth for kde or whatever just because they pull in
[11:10] <janimo> the whole gnome stack
[11:10] <janimo> hwdb-client,upadte,rlanguage-selector etc
[11:10] <seb128> KDE will not use GTK apps for its desktop anyway
[11:10] <janimo> these could all be written in pure gtk and than a qt version would foloow
[11:11] <janimo> but because of a tiny libe they're written from scratch
[11:11] <jdub> there are good reasons why we need to use gconf
[11:11] <janimo> same with g-s-s gnome-mount g-p-m
[11:11] <Lathiat> can you fix gconf not to pull in the entire gnome stack?
[11:11] <janimo> the functionality added by gnome libs is minimal but just enough to keep the desktops reimplementing all of it
[11:11] <janimo> seb128, right mvo will fix bugs that's why I said I'll write the ini file patch
[11:11] <mvo> jdub: right
[11:12] <dholbach> Lathiat: liborbit2-dev, libxml2-dev,libgtk2.0-dev is not what I'd call entire gnome stack
[11:12] <jdub> Lathiat: gconf is not the problem
[11:12] <doko> pitti: which one is a working kurdish locale?
[11:12] <janimo> Lathiat, gconf bu itself does not pull gnome in , just the pythoin=-gnome bindings
[11:13] <Lathiat> janimo: ah
[11:13] <sivang> morning all!
[11:13] <janimo> similarly gnomecanvas-python -> all gnome libs
[11:13] <Lathiat> that seems to be a common problem with the python gnome stuff
[11:13] <Lathiat> and related bits
[11:14] <Lathiat> like dbus needing glib main loop which was actually in gtk which would importerror if DISPLAY wasn't set
[11:14] <sivang> Kamion: do you recall the culmus patch I've sent you? what do we need to do in order to backport it to breezy? (same issue, same fix)
[11:14] <jdub> janimo: if it were to be done,m it would have to be a rebuild or something like that - we can't sacrifice gconf in general
[11:14] <janimo> seb128, really tying stuff to gnome only is not helping the fd.o goal
[11:14] <Lathiat>  uh all, he said fd.o :)
[11:15] <Kamion> sivang: uh, I thought the old font location was just fine for breezy
[11:15] <seb128_> re
[11:15] <pitti> doko: ku_TR.UTF-8 is supposed to work
[11:15] <seb128_> sorry got disconnected
 the functionality added by gnome libs is minimal but just enough to keep the desktops reimplementing all of it
 mvo: if you move away from gconf, makes sure derivatives have a way to set different default values and that mandatory values are possible too
 differents values without changing the package
[11:15] <Kamion> otherwise we'd have been fixing these issues like mad in breezy rather than fixing them like mad in dapper, surely?
 (like gconf.defaults stuff we have)
[11:15] <janimo> jdub, for update-manager you mean? I asked mvo and he said he just uses it for somehting ini files would do no fancy notification stuff or such
[11:15] <seb128_>  JanC JaneW janimo
 Lathiat: no, gconf triggers orbit2 and libxml2 basically
[11:15] <sivang> Kamion: appears not, already seen on that on 2 boxes near me..
[11:15] <sivang> Kamion: let me recheck just to make sure.
[11:15] <Lathiat> seb128_: right, the problem is
[11:15] <Lathiat> 18:12 < janimo> Lathiat, gconf bu itself does not pull gnome in , just the pythoin=-gnome bindings
[11:15] <Kamion> sivang: otherwise, you'll have to talk to the backports people; they have a mailing list
[11:15] <jdub> janimo: not using gconf means we lose administrative benefits
[11:16] <seb128_> Lathiat: so the solution is to split python stuff, not to cripple the app
[11:16] <jdub> janimo: it would be better to split out python-gconf
[11:16] <Kamion> sivang: but
[11:16] <seb128_> and the default value setting too
[11:16] <Lathiat> seb128_: as we're discovering
[11:16] <Kamion> sivang: if it's broken, then breezy-updates would be more appropriate than breezy-backports, probably
[11:16] <janimo> jdub, yes that would be better but seb said users don;t care about it
[11:16] <jdub> janimo: yes they do
[11:16] <jdub> janimo: you don't, but users do
[11:16] <janimo> jdub, tell seb :)
[11:16] <seb128_> I didn't say they don't care
[11:16] <Kamion> (-backports => shiny, -updates => didn't-work-before, basically)
[11:16] <seb128_> I said it's not a priority
[11:16] <janimo> jdub, I mean the splitting not gconf
[11:17] <mvo> janimo: jdub raised a important point about the adminitstative stuff, I think it's better to try to make python-gnome split out gconf
[11:17] <jdub> janimo: i don't think splitting is relevant to users whether it's done or not
[11:17] <janimo> jdub, mvo I agree
[11:18] <janimo> so please tell  seb128 that having granular python-gnome bindings is good :)
[11:18] <jdub> it may provide a solution to this problem
[11:18] <seb128_> janimo: stop speaking like I was not here
[11:19] <janimo> and for hwdb-client
[11:19] <janimo> seb128, I did not want to highlight you
[11:19] <jdub> splitting python-gobject helped for flumotion - it's probably better to talk to upstream about this problem
[11:19] <seb128_> janimo: if you mention my nickname you highlight me anyway
[11:19] <sivang> Kamion: oops, right. I need a breezy-update then. same issue, same remedy :-)
[11:19] <janimo> I toiught only seb128 not seb is you nick.oko
[11:20] <sivang> (I just verified)
[11:20] <Kamion> janimo: (you mentioned his whole nick, not just "seb")
[11:20] <janimo> ok, then my fault
[11:20] <sivang> Kamion: (I dislexitivy switched them in my mind)
[11:21] <Kamion> sivang: ok, but I don't have time at the moment sorry, maybe somebody else does
[11:22] <Kamion> man, I really wish soyuz told me which freaking binary packages were new
[11:22] <Kamion> sooooooooo painful to process evolution-data-server otherwise
[11:22] <sivang> Kamion: okay, thanks.
[11:23] <seb128_> Kamion: evolution-data-server-dbg :)
[11:24] <Kamion> seb128_: (no offence but I like to check myself anyway in case of accidents)
[11:24] <Kamion> but thanks
[11:24] <seb128_> np, it was in case it's useful
[11:24] <Kamion> only built on amd64 and i386?
[11:24] <seb128_> I stopped trying to look on build logs to be honest
[11:25] <seb128_> tracking every single package build log on launchpad is not funny
[11:25] <Kamion> no argument there, although it wasn't like it was easy before :(
[11:25] <Kamion> seb128_: please add evolution-data-server-dbg to the supported seed
[11:25] <seb128_> the daily page was useful
[11:25] <pitti> Kamion: ogra's build log page was pretty nice
[11:25] <seb128_> k, will do that now
[11:25] <Kamion> pitti: fair point, I never used that
[11:26] <seb128_> I was looking on the daily pages before, that was giving an idea of what was building or not
[11:26] <seb128_> " Timeout error
[11:26] <seb128_> Sorry, Launchpad took too long to process your request. "
[11:26] <seb128_> bah :)
[11:26] <pitti> seb128_: Monday morning dizzyness :-P
[11:26] <seb128_> #   dapper powerpc   Dependency wait
[11:26] <seb128_> # dapper ia64 Dependency wait 
[11:27] <seb128_> Kamion: 
[11:27] <seb128_>   libgnomeui-dev: Depends: libgnomeui-0 (= 2.13.3-0ubuntu1) but it is not going to be installed
[11:27] <seb128_>                   Depends: libbonoboui2-dev (>= 2.8.1-2) but it is not going to be installed
[11:27] <seb128_> dunno what is the issue exactly
[11:27] <Kamion> jdub: speaking of which, ubuntu-artwork 1 failed to build: http://librarian.launchpad.net/1583720/buildlog_ubuntu-dapper-i386.ubuntu-artwork_1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[11:27] <seb128_> maybe a retry would go fine
[11:27] <Kamion> ah, ok, infinity will need to look at that then
[11:28] <fabbione> seb128: it's because new gnome-vfs2 is in and chroots need updates
[11:28] <Kamion> jdub: (I've rejected ubuntu-artwork 0.2.29-1 binaries)
[11:28] <fabbione> + some libs need to be rebuilded in order
[11:28] <seb128> fabbione: gnutls stuff?
[11:28] <fabbione> seb128: gnome-vfs2 ?
[11:28] <seb128> yep
[11:28] <fabbione> dunno the changes there
[11:29] <seb128> k, you were saying that like there is a known issue with gnome-vfs2
[11:29] <fabbione> gnome-vfs2 has been NEW'ed
[11:29] <fabbione> the libgnome-vfs2-common changed from arch: any to arch: all
[11:30] <fabbione> if the chroots are not updated
[11:30] <fabbione> some -dev are not installable
[11:30] <fabbione> that's why you see these DepWait
[11:30] <Kamion> update as in apt-get update presumably
[11:30] <jdub> Kamion: ah, thanks, checking out now
[11:30] <seb128> fabbione: ah ok, makes sense, thank you :)
[11:30] <fabbione> Kamion: that's what i did on sparc to get out of that loop.
[11:30] <fabbione> Kamion: assuming the chroots are clean at the same level..
[11:31] <jdub> Kamion: boh! :)
[11:41] <pitti> dholbach: can you please avoid using 'ubuntu' in fake sync versions?
[11:41] <dholbach> pitti: arg, yes
[11:41] <dholbach> pitti: you're perfectly right
[11:41] <seb128> pitti: using "build"?
[11:41] <pitti> I use NMU-like numbers
[11:41] <dholbach> or -<n>.1 or something
[11:41] <pitti> but we don't have a common standard for that
[11:41] <seb128> Debian could use the NMU
[11:42] <dholbach> build1 is better probably
[11:42] <seb128> I think so
[11:42] <dholbach> pitti: so I won the next merge :-)
[11:42] <pitti> dholbach: yes, shouldn't hurt
[11:42] <pitti> dholbach: congratulations :)
[11:42] <dholbach> yay! :)
[11:42] <seb128> the best way would be to get a real sync though
[11:51] <freeflying> pitti: ping
[11:51] <pitti> freeflying: pong
[11:52] <freeflying> pitti: we have a package for IM select in our distro based upon debian 
[11:52] <freeflying> pitti: shall we use this way for the IM in ubuntu ?
[11:53] <pitti> fabbione: how is it done there? based on locale?
[11:54] <freeflying> pitti: it's a GUI program , it will give you choice , then user just need select what they wanna
[11:55] <fabbione> pitti: ?
[11:55] <pitti> fabbione: ?
[11:55] <fabbione> pitti: sorry.. i was not following
 fabbione: how is it done there? based on locale?
[11:55] <pitti> fabbione: argh, sorry, ETAB; was supposed for freeflying 
[11:56] <fabbione> ok :)
[11:57] <freeflying> pitti: if u can read in chinese, plz http://linux.hiweed.com/node/2673
[11:57] <pitti> I can't
[12:01] <freeflying> pitti: will it be a chioce ?
[12:01] <pitti> mvo: whoa, tetex-bin's postinst is what I call 'verbose'
[12:01] <seb128> Kinnison: new gnome-power-manager tarball, you may want to update it
[12:01] <freeflying> s/chioce/choice
[12:01] <Kinnison> seb128: I'll look in a bit, thanks for the headsup
[12:01] <pitti> freeflying: I don't understand the page; however, if we only have scim, why should we have a selector for scim alternatives?
[12:01] <seb128> np
[12:02] <mvo> pitti: hehe, yes :) 
[12:02] <freeflying> pitti: because other locale user wouldn't like to use scim/skim 
[12:03] <seb128> mvo: BTW seems you fixed that update-notifier CPU loop, nice :)
[12:03] <seb128> didn't happen for some time now
[12:04] <pitti> freeflying: hmm, it seems that this gui is entirely orthogonal to the scim module selector with env vars we talked aobut earlier then?
[12:05] <freeflying> pitti: y
[12:05] <freeflying> pitti: actually , any locales user can use scim ,u know u can use it under en_US without any problems
[12:16] <pitti> sjoerd: dbus crashes again on <policy group="...">
[12:16] <pitti> sjoerd: I thought this was fixed long ago...
[12:23] <pitti> sivang: volume.disc.capacity = 735051776  (0x2bd00000)  (uint64)
[12:23] <pitti> :)
[12:29] <sjoerd> pitti: is fixed (again?) in dbus 0.61
[12:46] <pitti> sjoerd: ah, good to know, thanks
[12:54] <seb128>  hum
[12:54] <seb128> where would you guys ship little utilities than can be useful for debug with a package?
[12:55] <seb128> like list_cddrivers for ncb
[12:55] <tenco> hi all
[12:55] <seb128> to /usr/share/doc/package/utility or something like that?
[12:55] <tenco> is  it normal that ubuntu dapper starts kgpg and kalarm?
[12:55] <seb128> Hi
[12:55] <seb128> no, it's a conflict with /usr/share/autostart feature between both desktop and will be fixed
[12:56] <pitti> seb128: why not /usr/share/package/?
[12:56] <tenco> seb128: good to know. thanks
[12:56] <seb128> pitti: no reason, I'm not sure if that should be shipped to /usr/bin or some other place
[12:56] <seb128> seems a bit "/usr/bin noise" to me, I'm fine with /usr/share/package
[12:57] <tenco> seb128: quick fix?
[12:57] <seb128> tenco: uninstall KDE
[12:57] <tepsipakki> hehe
[12:57] <tenco> seb128: err, no
[12:57] <tepsipakki> I noticed that conflict 5min ago
[12:57] <seb128> tenco: grep OnlyShowIn /usr/share/autostart/*
[12:57] <tenco> seb128: was just testing. i dont liked what i see. :P
[12:58] <tenco> s/liked/like
[12:58] <sivang> pitti: yay!! :-)
[12:59] <seb128> tenco: testing what? what does the grep prints exactly?
[12:59] <tepsipakki> only gnome-stuff uses that
[12:59] <tepsipakki> it seems..
[12:59] <tenco> seb128: where should i paste?
[01:00] <tenco> btw: spelling correction within gaim is awful
[01:00] <seb128> tenco: pastebin.com
[01:00] <seb128> tepsipakki: use what? /usr/share/autostart? why would KDE packages put stuff to it so?
[01:01] <tepsipakki> seb128: sorry, I was wrong... the computer where I ran that didn't even have KDE =)
[01:02] <tenco> http://pastebin.com/574718http://pastebin.com/574718
[01:02] <tenco> http://pastebin.com/574719http://pastebin.com/574719
[01:02] <tepsipakki> my install has kgpg and khotkeys that need fixing
[01:03] <tenco> first: your command. second: cd /usr/share/autostart;ls
[01:03] <tepsipakki> that directory is meant for packages (and admins) to start stuff with the session?
[01:04] <seb128> tenco: seems that kgpg and kalarm have no OnlyShowIn=KDE
[01:04] <hunger> tenco: There is a bugreport about kgpg starting by default.
[01:04] <tenco> hunger: ok
[01:04] <hunger> and about kalarm, too.
[01:04] <hunger> ... and kpowersave ...
[01:05] <hunger> kalarm is #31923, kgpg is #31294.
[01:05] <tenco> btw: in rythmbox why cant i skip forward and backwards within a track when its start not from the playlist?
[01:05] <hunger> kpowersave is #32340 FWIW.
[01:05] <tenco> s/start/started
[01:06] <tenco> in the meantime i will move them to a separate dir
[01:06] <seb128> tenco: what do you mean?
[01:07] <tenco> when i play a track from the collection browser or the podcast view, i cannot skip forward or backwards within the track
[01:07] <seb128> "collection browser"?
[01:08] <seb128> it works fine with a podcast source here
[01:08] <tenco> musiksammlung
[01:09] <tenco> ah. sorry. seems like it was an old configuration
[01:09] <tenco> before i deleted ~/.gconf* and ~/.gnome2* it didnt work
[01:12] <tenco> strange
[01:13] <tenco> which feed-reader do you recommend?
[01:15] <tenco> no it doesnt work anymore :-(
[01:15] <tenco> i started a podcast from the podcast view
[01:15] <tenco> skip till the tracks end
[01:15] <tenco> started the podcast again
[01:16] <tenco> now i cannot skip forward or backwards within the track anymore
[01:16] <tenco> same for playing songs from the collectioin
[01:18] <tenco> reproducable
[01:19] <tenco> additionally, downloading a podcast makes rythmbox constantly access the harddisk
[01:25] <sabdfl> hey guys, who's the best person to discuss beagle with?
[01:25] <simira> I really lik beagles, but...
[01:26] <Keybuk> sabdfl: Novell Person, or Ubuntunaut?
[01:26] <sabdfl> ubuntunaut, i have a request from someone that we fix it to work well with msft word files
[01:26] <Keybuk> my memory suggests Lathiat or tseng, but not sure
[01:28] <tenco> reproducable, but only with one mp3. its over 3 hours long
[01:32] <setuid> Can someone tell me if the fglrx xorg server is in dapper? 
[01:32] <Keybuk> seb128: evo ... does "Signature: BAD" just mean snake-oil?  or is its TLS broke?
[01:33] <Mithrandir> setuid: there's no fglrx xorg server.  There's a fglrx xorg driver which is in warty, hoary, breezy and dapper.
[01:33] <setuid> Ok, I'll give that a go
[01:38] <sabdfl> Lathiat, tseng: ping
[01:38] <sabdfl> thanks Keybuk
[01:38] <jsgotangco> oh wow
[01:39] <jsgotangco> 173 users in a devel channel that is neat
[01:40] <ploum> jsgotangco: : and really few noise. It's definitly good :-)
[01:58] <setuid> Mithrandir: Looks like the fglrx isn't in dapper... yet
[01:58] <Mithrandir> setuid: it is
[01:58] <setuid> Not in main, universe, multiverse
[01:58] <setuid> Just checked
[01:59] <ogra> setuid, its in restricted
[01:59] <ogra> indeed
[01:59] <setuid> or if it is, its not by the name xorg-driver-fglrx
[01:59] <Mithrandir> : tfheen@thosu ~ > apt-cache show xorg-driver-fglrx |grep ^Desc
[01:59] <Mithrandir> Description: Video driver for ATI graphics accelerators
[01:59] <Mithrandir> this is an i386 dapper system
[01:59] <setuid> I wonder why upgrade and dist-upgrade don't show it as a target for replacement
[02:00] <Keybuk> infinity: ping?
[02:01] <setuid> Is dapper relatively functional at this point? 
[02:02] <setuid> I mean... no major crashes/bugs in core? 
[02:02] <setuid> I know there's one in locales, which I had to work around (tzconfig bug) 
[02:09] <Lathiat> setuid: if its not installed, you cant upgrade it.. you need to apt-get install it
[02:10] <tenco> ok. bugs reported :-)
[02:11] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, here ?
[02:11] <AlinuxOS> hello all people :)
[02:11] <AlinuxOS> pitti, here ?
[02:14] <pitti> hi AlinuxOS 
[02:14] <tenco> bye
[02:17] <pitti> sjoerd: do you know whether the hal-device-manager hang is fixed in dbus 0.61?
[02:17] <sjoerd> pitti: not afaik
[02:18] <pitti> sjoerd: I didn't find an upstream bug so far, I'll file one
[02:18] <maswan> Mithrandir: do you know if there was a kernel upgrade wrt scsi stuff between flight-3 and flight-4?
[02:18] <Mithrandir> maswan: quite possibly.
[02:18] <maswan> hmm.. wonder if I should try and pull a new cd or just try flight-3 then.
[02:18] <maswan> hmm. going to try it. back in a bit. :)
[02:18] <tseng> sabdfl: good morning
[02:18] <pitti> mjg59: please meet AlinuxOS, or famous Georgian translator :)
[02:19] <pitti> mjg59: do you have the source package for this georgian font package around somewhwere? (bug 30671)
[02:19] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30671 in language-pack-ka "ttf-bpg-georgian are GPL ttf fonts for language-pack-ka and GNOME interface." [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30671
[02:20] <tseng> sabdfl: word in beagle needs a new package (wv1-dev), its totally doable aside from putting a bit of crappy old code in main
[02:20] <setuid> Lathiat: I know that, its already installed on Breezy
[02:20] <tseng> sabdfl: (was planning on promoting beagle this week for nautilus search features)
[02:21] <Kinnison> tseng: IME beagle chews all my RAM and crashes my desktop. It doesn't feel ready for main
[02:21] <tseng> Kinnison: mmm since when
[02:21] <Kinnison> tseng: Last tried it a couple of weeks back, so I guess they could have fixed it since
[02:21] <Keybuk> the annoying thing about Beagle is how much inotify sucks
[02:21] <tseng> Kinnison: the chewing ram has mostly stopped for the worst offenders in the last two releases
[02:21] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ;)
[02:21] <Keybuk> in order to watch your home directory, it has to do "find ~ -type d"
[02:21] <tseng> Kinnison: and ive never heard of "crashing my desktop" aside from excessive ram usage
[02:22] <AlinuxOS> the font's were taken from http://bpg.sytes.net/BPG-InfoTech/sppro/bpg/publications_list.asp?vjob=vcat,167  Authors site
[02:22] <setuid> woo
[02:22] <setuid> Total number of unique IPs blocked on port 25: 7966
[02:22] <AlinuxOS> pitti, am I famous ? :) woow :)
[02:22] <setuid> We might break 8k today
[02:22] <Kinnison> Keybuk: and I have a couple of kernel trees and some gtk/glib extracts etc all in there
[02:22] <Kinnison> Keybuk: btw, "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" AICMFP
[02:23] <tseng> Kinnison: ajmitch_ seems to have the worst registered experience with his gazillion stored feeds from liferea, and his daemon stays under 30mb now
[02:23] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: it should be easy enough to do "add directories matching this mask", I'd assume.
[02:23] <Kinnison> tseng: I guess I should try it again then
[02:24] <Keybuk> Kinnison: there is no FP to claim
[02:24] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: sadly not
[02:24] <Kinnison> Keybuk: :-(
[02:24] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: why not?
[02:24] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: inotify is "watch this directory" or "watch this file"
[02:24] <Keybuk> there's no "watch this and all of its children"
[02:24] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: "easy enough to add" implies kernel code. :-P
[02:24] <torkel> tseng: beagle is still broken wrt evolution (or rather evolution-sharp is still broken)
[02:25] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: ah, this is clearly some new definition of "easy" I wasn't previously aware of
[02:25] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: it's C, it's easy.
[02:25] <Mithrandir> What Could Possibly Go Wrong?
[02:25] <Mithrandir> I guess you could do it using kprobes.
[02:25] <Keybuk> everyone's machine could look like that
[02:25] <Mithrandir> I blame BenC
[02:25] <Keybuk> kanalprobe
[02:25] <Mithrandir> it works just fine with flight 4.
[02:26] <Mithrandir> I should probably do something like a bit gisect.
[02:26] <tseng> Kinnison: yeah, id like to have your feedback on that now
[02:26] <tseng> torkel: im pretty aware of that
[02:26] <tseng> torkel: people file bugs at least 3 duplicates at a time when it comes to beagle
[02:27] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: use google.co.uk?
[02:27] <Treenaks> google.com/ncr
[02:27] <dholbach> sabdfl: slomo too (mono, beagle)
[02:27] <tseng> dholbach: er, hi
[02:27] <dholbach> hey tseng :)
[02:27] <dholbach> tseng: ah right, you just chatted :)
[02:27] <dholbach> sabdfl: nevermind :)
[02:28] <jsgotangco> hey tseng!
[02:28] <Keybuk> and yet again, I observe that the "List of languages" is still localised
[02:28] <tseng> dholbach: hugs
[02:28] <tseng> jsgotangco: hi there
[02:28] <Keybuk> that is Google's biggest UI b
[02:28] <Keybuk> bug *ever*
[02:28] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: good thing we're not in China, then.
[02:28] <Mithrandir> or Japan
[02:28] <Keybuk> exactly
[02:28] <Keybuk> I'd need to know the crouching-wombat hidden-waffle for English to get my language back
[02:29] <Kinnison> Keybuk: visit google.co.uk ?
[02:29] <Keybuk> it should be a static list of the local names for every language
[02:29] <Keybuk> Kinnison: the observation was that the Google bar in firefox goes to .com whatever you use as your home page
[02:29] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: fix your firefox to use google.co.uk for the google bar thingy.
[02:29] <Kinnison> Keybuk: oh dear
[02:30] <torkel> tseng: check. I only found one against evo-sharp
[02:30] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: I've never got that to work
[02:30] <Keybuk> it always goes back to .com anyway
[02:31] <tseng> torkel: er, most go straight to beagle
[02:31] <tseng> torkel: regardless of where the bug is
[02:32] <tseng> torkel: varying degrees of clarity as to which bug is which
[02:32] <tseng> torkel: if you wanted to help triage.. :D
[02:38] <torkel> tseng: sure, if you can find me some time to do it...
[02:46] <Kinnison> Kamion: gnome-volume-manager has released a new upstream (2.13.91 -> 2.13.92) which contains a bunch of bug fixes we'd like to have in dapper. I've been reviewing the changelog etc this morning and it all looks fairly benign. http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gnome-power-manager/2.13/gnome-power-manager-2.13.92.news may be of use to you -- I would like a UVF/FF exception to integrate our patches with this and upload to dapper. Can y
[02:47] <Treenaks> Kinnison: you start about g-v-m, but go on about g-p-m..
[02:47] <Kinnison> gah, gnome-power-manager all the way
[02:48] <Kinnison> Kamion: Sorry, g-p-m all the way, not g-v-m at all
[02:48] <Keybuk> we're lucky he didn't end up in gnome-theme-manager
[02:48] <Treenaks> Keybuk: gnome-pointer-manager ?
[02:48] <Mithrandir> or gpm
[02:48] <ogra> Kinnison, isnt bug 22502 fixed in g-p-m since quite some time ? 
[02:48] <Ubugtu> malone bug 22502 in gnome-screensaver "Blank screen when returning from suspend/hibernate" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/22502
[02:49] <Kinnison> ogra: umm, yes it should be
[02:49] <ogra> oki, thanks ... i wasnt sure
[02:49] <ogra> nope, its assigned to g-s-s
[02:49] <Kamion> Kinnison: yes, looks reasonable
[02:51] <ogra> Kinnison, mind to take a look at bug 22522 ?
[02:51] <Ubugtu> malone bug 22522 in gnome-screensaver "Moving mouse while laptop lid is closed turns on screen" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/22522
[02:52] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, here pal ?
[02:52] <ogra> Kinnison, never mind, i just see youre subscribed :)
[02:53] <sivang> how do I go about syncing / merging irssi from debian unstable? it a new upstream release which fixes a lot of mem mamangemtn bugs..
[02:54] <tseng> you have to post a changelog diff and diffstat to ubuntu-motu list
[02:54] <tseng> hm its in main actually
[02:54] <tseng> approval from mdz or Kamion to break uvf
[02:55] <sivang> hmm, nahh, I See the upstream build on my machine didn't solve the particular problem..better to try come up with a patch.
[03:04] <Keybuk> I HATE BZR!
[03:05] <Keybuk> activity report: two intelligent people trying to get bzr push/pull to work to/from chinstrap: 1 hour
[03:05] <pitti> Keybuk: pull/push to rookery works flawlessly for me at least
[03:06] <pitti> Keybuk: what makes chinstrap 'spethial'?
[03:06] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's not a problem with chinstrap.  It's that the current dailies are special.
[03:06] <Keybuk> pitti: if I push, then nothing appears in the resulting directory (except .bzr) and Tollef gets a strange error when he tries to pull from it
[03:06] <pitti> ah, I see
[03:06] <pitti> Keybuk: the former is not really a bug, but intended
[03:06] <Keybuk> pitti: is the error intended though?
[03:06] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's _really_ silly.
[03:07] <pitti> Keybuk: you didnt' get a warning? ('Cannot update working directory' or so)
[03:07] <Mithrandir> since it means bzr push foo:path is no long a way to do remote branching.
[03:07] <Mithrandir> which then means you actually have to have bzr installed on all machines you want to check out on.
[03:07] <Keybuk> pitti: yeah I get that warning
[03:07] <Keybuk> plus some random Python DeprecationWarning
[03:07] <pitti> Mithrandir: right, I find that annoying, too
[03:08] <Kinnison> Mithrandir: did you check push's help
[03:08] <Keybuk> the push-doesn't is so broken though
[03:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: I recently switched back to rsync push, it's both much faster and updates the working dir
[03:08] <Keybuk> pitti: how do you do rsync push?
[03:08] <Kinnison> Keybuk: install bzrtools
[03:08] <pitti> Keybuk: with bzrtools
[03:08] <Mithrandir> Kinnison: no, I didn't.   I got annoyed over bzr push suddenly changing behaviour.
[03:08] <Keybuk> yeah, I just did that, and it didn't do anything
[03:08] <Kamion> Mithrandir: (you can always just rsync the whole thing rather than bzr push)
[03:09] <Keybuk> bzr push foo:bar just made a foo:bar directory in my cwd
[03:09] <pitti> Keybuk: you have to change the push location to an rsync spec
[03:09] <pitti> Keybuk: i. e. like chinstrap:bzr/mypackage
[03:09] <Keybuk> pitti: that made directories in my cwd
[03:09] <pitti> hm
[03:09] <Kamion> Keybuk: if you had bzrtools installed, definitely sounds like rsync push broe
[03:09] <Kamion> broke
[03:09] <Kamion> bzrtools does a weird decorator thing with the push builtin, looked pretty fragile to me
[03:09] <pitti> I didn't push after today's dist-upgrade, so that's entirely possible
[03:09] <Keybuk> doesn't rsync push also cause major issues if two people push together?
[03:09] <Kamion> Keybuk: yes
[03:09] <Kamion> you have to use sftp push for safe operation on shared archives
[03:10] <Kamion> use rsync for the initial push 'cos otherwise it's brain-deadeningly slow, but after that sftp is usable enough
[03:10] <Kamion> though I heard mutterings about sftp push having been sped up by a factor of $LOTS recently
[03:10] <Keybuk> does the sftp update the branch directory too?
[03:10] <Mithrandir> Kinnison: bzr push has --no-tree which doesn't update the working tree.  That means not updating the working tree is a bug.
[03:10] <sivang> Keybuk: it doesn't only meta data
[03:10] <Mithrandir> (unless you pass --no-tree, obviously)
[03:11] <Kamion> Keybuk: no, I have my own "push-fix" plugin which does sftp push then 'ssh $host bzr revert && find -name \*~ | xargs rm -f'
[03:11] <Kamion> or words to that effect
[03:11] <Kamion> well, unless they've changed it - the --no-tree option wasn't there last time I checked
[03:12] <Kinnison> afaict, bzrtools hasn't had any changes made to it which would break rsync pushing working tree
[03:13] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm running 0.7, though
[03:13] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I can chuck you over my push-fix plugin then
[03:13] <Mithrandir> Kamion: please.
[03:14] <Kamion> Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/push-fix/__init__.py - install in ~/.bazaar/plugins/push-fix/__init__.py
[03:14] <Keybuk> the only thing currently more annoying than bzr is bogofilter cheerfully declaring "yes, that's spam" and then sticking it in my INBOX anyway
[03:14] <Kamion> it's almost certainly really nasty bzrlib abuse and I can't guarantee that it'll keep working
[03:15] <Kamion> and it only works for sftp push at present
[03:15] <Mithrandir> Kamion: thanks.
[03:18] <AlinuxOS> mjg59: ping
[03:18] <maswan> Mithrandir: Well, it works. Kind of. And after lots of local hacking, due to the install/mkinitramfs stuff being crap (say, wouldn't it be a good idea to load the driver and some scsi modules before throwing up your hands and say you can't find sda1?)
[03:19] <Mithrandir> maswan: it does.
[03:19] <Mithrandir> maswan: and then it hangs around for a while, but the scsi bus might be exceedingly slow on ravel, I'm not sure.
[03:20] <maswan> Mithrandir: No, after manually adding them to the mkinitramfs/modules list it works fine.
[03:20] <maswan> Mithrandir: the driver modules weren't even included in the initramfs
[03:21] <Mithrandir> maswan: blame scott, then. :-)
[03:21] <maswan> Mithrandir: Now the question is, do I want to try and reproduce this with flight-4, or am I satisfied with just whining about it on irc? :)
[03:21] <Mithrandir> maswan: if you would try with flight 4 it'd be useful for us.
[03:21] <maswan> hmm.. we did install the latest kernel though already.
[03:22] <Keybuk> maswan: if your scsi driver wasn't automatically loaded ... then it's likely a kernel bug
[03:22] <Keybuk> it also could be an initramfs bug ... was the driver actually in the initramfs before you stuck it in /etc/mkinitramfs/modules ?
[03:23] <maswan> Mithrandir: Yeah, I know. Just not sure I'm up to that right now (it took two install attempts to get stuff in to begin with, but that was just me misdiagnosed by me as "can't find the VG" -> lvm crapped out, not scsi crapped out)
[03:23] <maswan> Keybuk: I tried to find it in /lib/modules on the initramfs, and I couldn't find the mpt* modules.
[03:23] <Keybuk> maswan: blame infinity 
[03:23] <maswan> Keybuk: after I got a busybox shell when it coudln't mount root
[03:23] <Keybuk> if the modules aren't in the initramfs, it's an infinity bug
[03:24] <Keybuk> if they are and they don't get loaded, it's a BenC bug
[03:24] <Keybuk> only if they get loaded, and there still isn't a /dev/sda1 is it a Keybuk bug
[03:26] <pitti> Keybuk: if/when you have a minute, could you give me a ping, please?
[03:27] <Mithrandir> maswan: what's the exact module ravel needs?
[03:28] <maswan> mptspi                 10888  0 
[03:28] <maswan> mptscsih               40544  1 mptspi
[03:28] <maswan> mptbase                53792  2 mptspi,mptscsih
[03:28] <Mithrandir> scsih isn't added by default.
[03:28] <maswan> I also needed to add sd_mod (and possibly scsi_mod)
[03:28] <Mithrandir> but spi is.
[03:28] <maswan> Ok
[03:29] <Mithrandir> can you get me the broken initramfs or is it gone?
[03:30] <Mithrandir> hmm, ok. :-/
[03:31] <maswan> Oh, well. If I just get a bit to recover, I can go at it again.
[03:31] <Mithrandir>   * Add mptspi to the list of SCSI modules put in the initramfs by default,
[03:31] <maswan> besides being boring, an install isnt' so bad
[03:31] <Mithrandir>     which is required for some LSI Logic controllers and for the VMware SCSI
[03:31] <Mithrandir>     controller in recent VMware versions (See launchpad.net/{27187,31229})
[03:31] <Mithrandir> might be the fix.
[03:31] <Mithrandir> 14th Feb
[03:31] <maswan> ah
[03:31] <maswan> yeah, possibly
[03:31] <maswan> would that have made it to flight-4?
[03:31] <Mithrandir> which is post-flight-3, IIRC.
[03:31] <Mithrandir> yeah
[03:31] <Mithrandir> flight 4 is a week ago, approx.
[03:31] <Mithrandir> iirc
[03:32] <Mithrandir> ooh, possibly.  Maybe not.
[03:32] <Mithrandir> it's an edge case.
[03:32] <Kamion> definitely post-flight-3 and pre-flight-4
[03:32] <Kamion> I made sure that got in for vmware installs
[03:32] <Mithrandir> heh, ok
[03:33] <tepsipakki> is jeff bailey on a vacation or similar?
[03:34] <Kamion> tepsipakki: he's working on Canonical support full-time now, not distro team any more
[03:34] <Kamion> so don't expect to see him around much
[03:35] <tepsipakki> who's maintaining glibc/nscd then?
[03:36] <tepsipakki> launchpad says there's a team, but no members on it ;)
[03:36] <infinity> tepsipakki: Jeff is doing so somewhat until the dapper release, but he and I are working on a soft transition to me taking on glibc.
[03:37] <tepsipakki> infinity: ok, there are some very easy bugs that could be fixed :)
[03:37] <jono> Kamion, hey, has espresso changed much since flight 4?
[03:37] <maswan> Ok, going to burn and try flight-4 then
[03:38] <infinity> tepsipakki: I haven't had a chance to dig through the list yet.  Though, nothing in glibc is ever as "easy" as it looks, owing to the fact that one thing almost always breaks something else somewhere else. :)
[03:38] <infinity> tepsipakki: If you're just talking simple packaging bugs, then yeah.  I need to tackle the list in the next couple of weeks and nail those.
[03:38] <tepsipakki> infinity: well, these are: malone 3365 and malone 30141
[03:38] <Ubugtu> malone bug 3365 in glibc "nscd does not create necessary directories in /var" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3365
[03:38] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30141 in glibc "nscd needs to start earlier" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30141
[03:39] <tepsipakki> but ok, I'm sure these will be fixed for dapper ;)
[03:40] <infinity> Ahh, more /var/run on tmpfs bugs. :)
[03:40] <Kamion> jono: yes, lots
[03:40] <infinity> Yeah, we need to either sort every last one of those or get Scott to revert that. :)
[03:40] <infinity> I've already uploaded for half a dozen or so.
[03:40] <jono> Kamion, is the UI drastically different?
[03:40] <Kamion> 100 lines of changelog since Flight 4
[03:40] <tepsipakki> I just reinstalled my other workstation, and because of ldap I have 52 connections to the servers. nscd is a must when using ldap..
[03:40] <Kamion> jono: yes, added language and timezone selection pages
[03:40] <Kamion> keymap still to come
[03:40] <jdub> Kamion: how many changes in debconf bits have been required for espresso, or is it pretty neatly separate?
[03:41] <Kamion> jdub: quite a lot
[03:41] <jdub> s/debconf/d-i/
[03:41] <Kamion> jdub: same answer :)
[03:41] <jdub> :)
[03:41] <Kamion> it's not supposed to be neatly separate, it's supposed to be well-integrated
[03:41] <Kamion> jdub: most of the changes are packaging though
[03:41] <jono> Kamion, is there a simple way I can get my hands on it, can I just dist-upgrade my installed system and re-run it?
[03:41] <Kamion> jdub: i.e. making d-i packages spit out espresso-foo
[03:41] <jdub> Kamion: in a not-objectionable way to debian?
[03:42] <jdub> hrm
[03:42] <Kamion> jdub: remains to be seen. some of the non-espresso-specific changes have already gone upstream
[03:42] <jdub> muhaha
[03:42] <Kamion> jono: dist-upgrade a live CD
[03:42] <Kamion> of course you have to have enough memory to cope ...
[03:42] <Keybuk> infinity: at some point, in my copious free time, I plan to just grep the archive for any package that includes a /var/run dir or mentions it in postinst, and blitz them all in one go
[03:42] <jono> Kamion, ok
[03:42] <Kamion> jono: you might want to wait a couple of hours though, I just made a big upload a few minutes ago
[03:43] <jono> Kamion, ok cool
[03:43] <jdub> Kamion: what's my best choice for test iso love?
[03:43] <Keybuk> hmm... ok, I'm now getting *no* mail... wonder if I've over-filtered it :p
[03:43] <Kamion> jdub: today's daily seems to be O
[03:43] <Kamion> OK
[03:43] <jdub> Keybuk: "you've got qmail!"
[03:43] <jdub> Kamion: ok!
[03:44] <Kamion> and has the cute timezone page, even without my most recent upload
[03:44] <jdub> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ <- bong
[03:44] <jono> where are the daily isos?
[03:44] <Kamion> jono: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[03:44] <Keybuk> jdub: it's better than gmail
[03:44] <jono> awesome
[03:44] <jono> jdub, enjoy FOSDEM?
[03:44] <Kamion> jdub: wanna RT that?
[03:44] <Keybuk> after two weeks of having to use gmail, I want to give my invite back
[03:45] <jdub> Kamion: aye
[03:45] <Kamion> I think one half of cdimage.ubuntu.com is not configured to respond to cdimages
[03:45] <Znarl> Kamion : Which half?!?  :/
[03:45] <maswan> jdub: cdimages != cdimage, perhaps?
[03:46] <Kamion> Znarl: .155
[03:46] <Lathiat> i think releases. has problems with that as well
[03:46] <Kamion> .176 works fine, according to a raw-HTTP test
[03:46] <jdub> Kamion: daily or daily-live?
[03:46] <Kamion> jdub: daily-live
[03:47] <jdub> thanks!
[03:47] <jono> ahhh cunning I can dist-upgrade to espresso and write the book
[03:47] <jono> woo!
[03:48] <Kamion> jdub: there's one big debconf change yet to come, which is a bit complicated and has compatibility implications if we get it wrong - I'm talking about it by mail with joeyh at the moment
[03:48] <Mithrandir> jono: you like our live CDs? :-)
[03:48] <Znarl> Kamion : Corrected.
[03:48] <Kinnison> Kamion: did you see my request for a UVF exception?
[03:48] <jono> Mithrandir, yes indeedy
[03:48] <Kamion> jdub: I sincerely hope nobody ever wants to backport to breezy
[03:48] <jdub> Kamion: ha ha
[03:48] <Kamion> Kinnison: 13:49 < Kamion> Kinnison: yes, looks reasonable
[03:48] <Kinnison> Kamion: aah ogra confused me into missing you saying it looked reasonable
[03:48] <jdub> Kamion: you're happy with it so far?
[03:48] <Kinnison> Kamion: Thanks
[03:49] <Kamion> jdub: mm, well, sort of. lots to do
[03:49] <Kamion> it's a lot better than it was a month ago
[03:49] <Mithrandir> jono: it's a bit of a shame there's no way to upgrade the kernel on them, though.  Not yet, at least.
[03:49] <Mithrandir> jono: like, runtime.
[03:49] <infinity> Mithrandir: kexec()!
[03:50] <Keybuk> infinity: please don't give him ideas
[03:50] <Keybuk> he has that look on his face
[03:50] <simira> who can I hit for xlibs not being in Dapper?
[03:50] <infinity> simira: No one, it shouldn't be.
[03:51] <simira> infinity: Opera depends on it :-( It was in Breezy
[03:51] <ogra> simira, it died a slow, awful and ugly death with xorg 6.X
[03:51] <infinity> Mithrandir: Tell your friends at Opera to rebuild on a Debian/Ubuntu base from the 20th century, kthxbye.
[03:51] <Keybuk> simira: hit Opera
[03:51] <Mithrandir> infinity: hmm.  Need to preserve the tmpfs-es and such, though.
[03:51] <jsgotangco> infinity: +1
[03:52] <Mithrandir> simira: no, it doesn't.
[03:52] <simira> Keybuk: Not until they hav answered it I get a job there or not ;)
[03:52] <Mithrandir> simira: it depends on xlib6g | xlibs.
[03:52] <simira> Mithrandir: says so to me...
[03:53] <simira> Mithrandir: well, xlib6g isn't in Dapper eiter
[03:53] <Kamion> Mithrandir: neither of which exist any more
[03:53] <Mithrandir> Kamion: the problem would then be that it depends on xlib6g, not xlibs. :-P
[03:54] <simira> I thought xlib6g was a part of xlibs, anyway
[03:54] <Mithrandir> simira: xlibs hasn't existed for years.
[03:54] <simira> Mithrandir: must have been 6g I used in Breezy then. Doesn't help me much anyway. Now, do you want me to make dinner today or what? :p
[03:55] <Mithrandir> simira: I can ask Christian to build a package on something a bit more reasonable.
[03:55] <infinity> sarge or hoary would be nice.
[03:55] <infinity> breezy would be great (for an Ubuntu-spefici package)
[03:56] <infinity> specific, too.
[03:56] <simira> Mithrandir: Christian who? Anyway, it should be solved in some way.
[03:56] <Kamion> xlib6g hasn't existed for years. xlibs existed up to breezy.
[03:56] <Mithrandir> Kamion: hmm?  I thought it was the other way around.  I'll have to kick him, then.
[03:56] <Kamion> xlib6g was never in an Ubuntu release
[03:56] <Mithrandir> simira: Christian Westgaard.
[03:56] <simira> Mithrandir: oh, Nafallo.
[03:56] <simira> no
[03:56] <simira> whatever
[03:57] <Kamion> that's Bjlevik
[03:57] <simira> as long as I get Opera installed, I'm satisfied. If I don't, I am not.
[03:57] <Mithrandir> infinity: so just building it on sarge should pick up libx11 instead?  I'll get him to do that.
[03:57] <Mithrandir> infinity: I don't think he builds ubuntu packages directly.
[03:58] <infinity> Mithrandir: Should do.
[03:58] <infinity> Mithrandir: Of course, Ubunut users will be stuck using the static build (since we can't use the dynamic build with our gcc-4.0-using QT), but no big deal.
[03:58] <Mithrandir> infinity: sure, but as you say, not a big issue.
[03:58] <infinity> Mithrandir: You could beg for an Etch build, though, which would also work on breezy and dapper smashingly. :)
[03:59] <Mithrandir> infinity: there _is_ an etch build, which is what surprises me
[03:59] <infinity> Hrm, I wonder if they're doing statically-generated deps or something scary, then.
[03:59] <Mithrandir> - Depends: libc6 (>= 2.1.3), xlib6g (>= 3.3.6) | xlibs, libqt3c102-mt, libstdc++5
[03:59] <Mithrandir> + Depends: libc6 (>= 2.1.3), xlib6g (>= 3.3.6) | xlibs, libqt3-mt (>= 3.3.4) | libqt3c102-mt (>= 3.3.4), libstdc++6
[03:59] <Mithrandir> is the difference between them.
[03:59] <infinity> Perhaps they build one binary on "some gcc-4.0 system" (like SuSE), then package them all up with static deps.
[03:59] <Keybuk> simira: apt-get install firefox
[04:00] <Mithrandir> infinity: they didn't used to do that, at least.
[04:00] <Mithrandir> though, there's an unversioned dependecy on libstdc++ which looks slightly fishy.
[04:00] <infinity> Mithrandir: Yeah, they're obviously using static deps.  There's no way dpkg-shlibdeps would give you those deps (neither the X deps, nor the scary QT|QT dep)
[04:00] <simira> Keybuk: oh, will that give me a proper opera-install? :D
[04:00] <infinity> Mithrandir: That QT|QT dep is just horribly wrong...
[04:01] <simira> Keybuk: besides, ff is buggy also :p
[04:01] <Mithrandir> infinity: la, la, la.
[04:01] <infinity> Mithrandir: Plus, if it was built on anything recent, the shlibdep for glibc would be a lot higher.
[04:01] <Mithrandir> indeed
[04:01] <infinity> Mithrandir: Maybe you should offer a packaging lesson. :)
[04:01] <Keybuk> simira: no, but it'll give you something you can bitch about to us <g>
[04:01] <Mithrandir> infinity: I probably should.
[04:02] <Mithrandir> infinity: it's just a ten minute bike ride from home, so I could really just pop by there an afternoon to say hi to them anyway.
[04:02] <simira> Keybuk: who said I was finished? I am testing flight 4 right now... ;)
[04:02] <infinity> Mithrandir: Heck, we could even repackage it for them in multiverse, if they were willing to hand us prebuilt binaries. :P
[04:02] <infinity> (And give us a license to distribute)
[04:02] <simira> Mithrandir: I consider applying for a application testing job there
[04:02] <Keybuk> simira: are you saying you're not finished? :p
[04:03] <simira> Keybuk: with flight 4 and bugging you? What part do *you* maintain?
[04:03] <infinity> simira: All the broken bits.
[04:03] <Keybuk> simira: none of it
[04:03] <Keybuk> simira: I maintain my innocence
[04:03] <Mithrandir> (he says, chuckling)
[04:04] <Mithrandir> infinity: yeah, the redistribution licence used to be a problem, uhm, five years ago.  No idea if the talking with the lawyers ended up with anything changing.
[04:04] <simira> Keybuk: I can't seem to find the innocence-package here... must be severely broken, then?
[04:04] <Mithrandir> infinity: actually, the binaries are built on random crackful systems.  I should absolutely go there and fix that.
[04:05] <Mithrandir> (RH9 and FC4)
[04:05] <infinity> Mithrandir: Teach them some basic packaging, and extend an offer for me to set up a Debian/Ubuntu build system for them.
[04:05] <infinity> (Even if it's just debian/ubuntu build chroots on an FC4 system)
[04:06] <Kamion> Mithrandir: say hello to Eddy Welbourne from me if he's still there
[04:06] <Mithrandir> Kamion: willdo
[04:11] <ogra> anybody in here with a ati mobility 7500 ? (i.e. thinkpad t30) 
[04:24] <seb128> pitti: every user should have a dbus session bus running, no?
[04:24] <pitti> seb128: should have
[04:24] <seb128> that's not the case?
[04:25] <pitti> for whom?
[04:25] <seb128> I've noticed that my "play with" user has no session bus running
[04:25] <seb128> ie: I'm already logged and I tried to startx -- :1 with an another user
[04:26] <torkel> ogra: about 22045? It's flickering for me with a Thinkpad T42 (ATI Technologies Inc Radeon R250 Lf [FireGL 9000] )
[04:26] <seb128> and running dbus-launch returns _ADDRESS and _PID for the already running session bus (the one used by my user)
[04:28] <seb128> pitti: gnome-screensaver refuses to start for that user saying it can't connect to the session bus because it is unable to determine the adress of the message bus or something like that
[04:28] <seb128> said differently: "lock screen menu items does nothing" :p
[04:29] <seb128> wb pitti_
[04:29] <pitti_> meh network
[04:29] <maswan> now that's an interesting regression, during installing base system flight-4 hangs (D) and I get scsi timeouts logged in dmesg.
[04:29] <maswan> Mithrandir: sorry, no flight-4 report on that. I didn't get that far. :/
[04:30] <torkel> ogra: and I haven't had time to investigate it. If you have anything you want me to test, let me know
[04:31] <ogra> torkel, i just wanted to know if anybody else is still seeing it ...
[04:31] <ogra> torkel, i assume you are on an up to date dapper 
[04:32] <torkel> ogra: yes. Gimme a couple of sec and I will try it again just to verify
[04:33] <desrt> seb128; you're welcome :p
[04:33] <torkel> ogra: it's still flickering and I did my daily update half an hour ago
[04:34] <ogra> torkel, ok, thanks ...
[04:34] <ogra> weird that it only happens on ati cards ...
[04:34] <ogra> i dont have it here *anywhere*
[04:41] <pef> hello
[04:41] <desrt> pef; hello
[04:42] <ogra> Mithrandir, is casper still setting the "RUNNING_UNDER_GDM" variable ? its essential for preventing the screensaver from locking ...
[04:45] <davyd_> does anyone want to chat about #30557?
[04:46] <lemsx1> hello all
[04:46] <maswan> Mithrandir: moving over homedirs to ravel, then we'll have to look at chroots.
[04:46] <lemsx1> the fix for this bug is really simple and it has been reported many times already: #32576
[04:47] <lemsx1> all it needs is a TAB (instead of 8 spaces) in debian/rules and rebuild
[04:50] <ogra> lemsx1, that looks like a weridly mixed debian/ubuntu saystem 
[04:50] <ogra> there is no 2.6.15.3-desktop-2 kernel in ubuntu
[04:50] <lemsx1> ogra: that part doesn't matter
[04:50] <lemsx1> ogra: that's a custom kernel i built
[04:50] <ogra> lemsx1, sure it does 
[04:51] <lemsx1> ogra: no it doesn't, look at the other bugs for the same package. 
[04:51] <lemsx1> ogra: there are 8 spaces in debian/rules. (opened in vim showed the line in red)
[04:51] <ogra> its still info that matters to me if i triage a bug ...
[04:51] <lemsx1> ogra: agree. but in this case the bug is in fglrx-kernel-source
[04:52] <lemsx1> ogra: https://launchpad.net/malone/distros/ubuntu?field.searchtext=fglrx-kernel-source&orderby=-priority%2C-severity&search=Search
[04:52] <ogra> lemsx1, be sure that will get fixed before release :)
[04:52] <lemsx1> ogra: there was an earlier bug reported, but against the restricted modules package
[04:53] <lemsx1> ogra: let's hope. if not, it doesn't matter... is not like ATI drivers work anyway ;-)
[04:54] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, hey. do you plan to add translation support for the menu item in the first installation screen of dapper? 
[04:54] <lemsx1> ogra: i always go back to pulling the installer from ATI's site and building deb's that way... i just wanted to report the problem early so that Dapper doesn't get released like that
[04:54] <torkel> ogra: when running gltext by hand it does not flicker...
[04:54] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: er, sorry, which string are you talking about?
[04:54] <ogra> torkel, yes, must be a glitch between ati and g-s-s ... sandly it works fine on my ibook with ati card
[04:55] <seb128> pitti: hum, dbus works fine now ...
[04:55] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion,sorry, the menu items :)  all of them..."Install to the hard disk", "CD test"... etc.
[04:55] <pitti> seb128: good to hear, but bad that it didn't work after the upgrade
[04:56] <seb128> but that's weird, they may have a gnome bug
[04:56] <pitti> seb128: however, I jsut checked the debdiff of my last upload again, and I can't see any related change
[04:56] <seb128> when I log in
[04:56] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, they are not translatable it seems...
[04:56] <seb128> if I try to lock the screen sometime it doesn't work on first try
[04:56] <jvw> What's Ian Jackson's IRC nick again?
[04:56] <seb128> that's like first try runs gnome-screesaver
[04:56] <pitti> jvw: Diziet 
[04:56] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: oh, right, yeah, I do plan to
[04:56] <jvw> pitti: thanks
[04:56] <seb128> and second try lock the screen
[04:56] <pitti> jvw: Hi Jeroen, how are you?
[04:57] <jvw> pitti: fine, but very tired (FOSDEM)
[04:57] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: not quite sure *how*, I'll probably just messily hack them into gfxboot-theme-ubuntu
[04:57] <jvw> pitti: and still finalizing and reworking bits of my DPL platform
[04:57] <ogra> Kamion, anything that holds up edubuntu-docs  ?
[04:57] <mantiena> doko, hi again, just now I got rid of kids...
[04:58] <Kamion> ogra: not especially, just haven't looked at the NEW queue much for a few days
[04:58] <ogra> ah, k
[04:58] <ogra> :)
[04:58] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, ok... thx. since it is the first thing a user sees imho it's important to have it in their language. Probably the hack is not a bad idea.
[04:59] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: sure, I agree
[04:59] <mantiena> doko, if you are online it would be nice to know your plans about OpenOffice.org in Ubuntu dapper. Are you planing to upload new builds with important bugfixes, like not working database form design or missing FontWork and Gallery ?
[05:00] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: I'll have a quick look now
[05:01] <doko> mantiena: there will be new uploads, hopefully this week
[05:01] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: the strings include a ^ character that's used to indicate an accelerator key (like "Run preinstalled ^live system", accelerator key 'l'); do you think translators will understand that, or do I need to add comments?
[05:01] <doko> mantiena: is there a bug report about the database form design?
[05:02] <mantiena> doko, yes, of course, I can search and tell you bug number if you want ;)
[05:03] <mantiena> doko, maybe somethere are the sources, which I could compile and test ?
[05:04] <doko> mantiena: not yet with final package names
[05:06] <mantiena> doko, what is "final package names" ?
[05:07] <mantiena> hi herzi, long time without chat ;)
[05:07] <herzi> hey
[05:08] <doko> mantiena: to be decided
[05:09] <davyd_> BenC: around?
[05:09] <BenC> davyd_: yep
[05:09] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, well... I would understand that but a minority of the translators won't. It's a compromise. If you think u'll loose too much time including the comments, don't incld
[05:09] <davyd_> BenC: can we chat about Ubuntu bug 30557?
[05:09] <WaterSevenUb> kamion, include them.
[05:10] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: I think I'll just include them, it's easy to do
[05:10] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, well... in the end they are just a few so... :)
[05:10] <Kamion> # Boot menu item; a ^ prefix indicates a unique accelerator key.
[05:10] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, yape. great.
[05:11] <BenC> davyd_: sure
[05:11] <davyd_> BenC: the bug seems to manifest itself when I change my maximum c-state option
[05:11] <mantiena> herzi, are you still working on GNOPPIX ?
[05:12] <BenC> davyd_: let's take this into #ubuntu-kernel to avoid noise
[05:12] <davyd_> BenC: ok
[05:12] <mantiena> herzi, or just amu alone works on GNOPPIX ?
[05:12] <herzi> i don't
[05:13] <mantiena> doko, hehe, this is not important for testing - I wanna test Ubuntu OpenOffice.org for important bugs in software, package names are not important for these tests ;)
[05:13] <Kamion> I'll just say "an accelerator key" actually - they only need to be unique for the set of items on a given CD image, which is too complicated to explain in a translator comment
[05:25] <sladen> Treenaks: did you get jdub?
[05:25] <Treenaks> sladen: I got him last October ;)
[05:25] <Treenaks> sladen: http://foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/
[05:27] <ploum> Treenaks: I don't see Martijn van de Streek in your list !
[05:27] <ploum> :-D
[05:28] <Treenaks> ploum: I know I knokw
[05:31] <sladen> Treenaks: if you replaced all the ' ' spaces with '-' dashes, they'd be easier to download
[05:31] <sladen> Treenaks: I was wondering if you were going to get RMS saying ''I like OObuntu or whatever the version he likes is actualy called''
[05:32] <Treenaks> sladen: If I copy/paste the URLs from firefox, they become %20s, which wget properly un-escapes, if you're so inclined :)
[05:34] <sladen> Treenaks: yeah, they don't autoleethighlight in Gnome Terminal as it stops at the spaces
[05:35] <Treenaks> sladen: ah... yes..
[05:35] <Treenaks> that's why I pasted '%20' :)
[05:40] <Treenaks> sladen: do you like them?
[05:41] <sladen> Treenaks: a bit embarassing---you could do a video combining all the people just saying 'ubuntu', certainly keep collecting :)
[05:42] <Treenaks> sladen: :)
[05:44] <mantiena> doko, so, how I can get latest Ubuntu OpenOffice.org sources ?
[05:50] <Pygi> hello :)
[05:51] <Pygi> dapper daily build message when installing/booting system
[05:51] <Pygi> Feb 27 17:45:13 ubuntu kernel: [4294671.850000]  pnp: PnPACPI: unknown resource t ype 7
[05:51] <Pygi> 6 yimes
[05:51] <Pygi> times*
[05:52] <pitti> sivang: can you please do s/unstable/breezy-updates in your breezy-updates culmus pacakge?
[05:52] <pitti> sivang: the change looks safe enough, so unless Kamion objects, I can upload the package
[05:52] <feistel> hi
[05:53] <feistel> I need help with Ubuntu installer, I need modify them
[05:53] <feistel> Only I need change some strings of Ubuntu Installer
[05:53] <feistel> where I can find that strings? I need change the templates of debconf, don't?
[05:53] <feistel> any suggest?
[05:55] <ploum> Treenaks: by looking at your collection, I realize that we really need more women involved in Ubuntu
[05:56] <Kamion> feistel: which strings?
[05:56] <Kamion> feistel: and are you trying to translate them, or change them for some other purpose?
[05:56] <feistel> Kamion: some strings in the installer, debconf
[05:56] <Kamion> pitti: no objection
[05:56] <Kamion> feistel: please tell me which strings or I cannot help you.
[05:56] <feistel> Kamion: ok, whait
[05:56] <Kamion> feistel: they're very unlikely to be in the debconf package itself
[05:57] <feistel> Kamion, the message in the end of first stage, when say "ubuntu is installed..."
[05:58] <Kamion> feistel: that's in the prebaseconfig source package
[05:58] <sivang> pitti: will do , thanks. sorry for missing this out
[05:58] <Kamion> oh, hang on, let me check that
[05:59] <feistel> Kamion: where that message are? I can't find any .mo file in the installer
[05:59] <mgalvin> hmm, both abiword(after a sec or two) and ooo(on start up) crash on amd64
[06:00] <mgalvin> oowriter2 on the cli says, no suitable windowing system found, exiting.
[06:00] <pitti> sivang: same for irssi
[06:00] <Kamion> feistel: hmm, no, actually, I cannot find the message you mention; please give me the full string?
[06:00] <Kamion> not just the start of it
[06:00] <pitti> sivang: the irssi one is only for dapper, is that right?
[06:00] <sivang> pitti: correct
[06:00] <Kamion> feistel: the installer doesn't use .mo files; it uses debconf templates
[06:01] <pitti> sivang: alright, I'll upload irssi now
[06:01] <pitti> sivang: does Debian know about the patch?
[06:01] <Kamion> feistel: see the debconf-devel(7) and po-debconf(7) man pages
[06:01] <feistel> Kamion: ok, where I can find in the install CD the debconf templates? In the initrd or in a .udeb package?
[06:01] <Kamion> feistel: you'll find the templates in debian/po/ in each source package
[06:01] <Kamion> feistel: that depends on which string you're talking about
[06:02] <Kamion> some of them are in /var/lib/dpkg/info/ in the initrd, and some are in the templates file in the control area of .udebs
[06:02] <Kamion> I wasn't just asking you for which string you were talking about for the fun of it :)
[06:02] <doko> mantiena: sending you the URL
[06:02] <Kamion> ultimately of course the initrd is built out of udebs too
[06:02] <feistel> Kamion: ok, I need change some installer file, whait a moment please
[06:03] <Pygi> anyone have any comment on that possible bug? :)
[06:03] <pitti> sivang: irssi uploaded, please close the bug and such
[06:03] <sivang> pitti: thanks you! 
[06:05] <sivang> pitti: I will ping JD when he comes online again, he was supposed to sync up a new upstream, but the latest package from unstable didn't fix that, and i couldn't spot if he synced or not. I don't have a debian box near me so I can't test..
[06:05] <feistel> Kamion: thanks!!!!!!! I find, yes!!! in the DEBIAN directory inside of a udeb packages, thanks again!!!!
[06:06] <pitti> sivang: oh, reading changelog should be enough
[06:06] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: any chance you could have a look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/gfxboot-themes/Ubuntu/po/pt.po and translate the boot menu items there?
[06:06] <Kamion> feistel: right, DEBIAN corresponds to the control.tar.gz
[06:06] <WaterSevenUb> kamion, sure.
[06:06] <Kamion> feistel: you'll find the original .po files in debian/po/ in the source package, which will almost certainly be easier to handle
[06:07] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: thanks
[06:07] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: works for me with a test string, anyway
[06:07] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, good:) I will test afterwards in any case.
[06:08] <Kamion> might be as fast to send it to me and I can feed it to my test rig
[06:08] <feistel> Kamion: only I need edit the DEBIAN/template file I rebuild the udeb package, without recompile anything?
[06:09] <Kamion> feistel: once again, it depends on the string - you don't seem to want to tell me exactly which string it is
[06:09] <Kamion> feistel: it's much easier to fetch the *source* package, change that, and debuild
[06:09] <Kamion> (after installing the build-dependencies, obviously)
[06:11] <feistel> Kamion: the string is "Description-es.UTF-8: Reiniciando a su nuevo sistema Ubuntu..." in english "Description: Rebooting into your new Ubuntu system..."
[06:11] <jpatrick> maybe nueva is correct
[06:12] <feistel> Kamion: then I dpkg -x and dpkg -c the udeb package, edit the template file, and dpkg -b , is correct?
[06:12] <Kamion> feistel: thank you. Yes, that's prebaseconfig (and in dapper, it does not include the word "Ubuntu")
[06:12] <Kamion> feistel: no, that is not correct
[06:12] <Kamion> feistel: apt-get source prebaseconfig, edit debian/prebaseconfig.templates, debuild
[06:13] <jpatrick> "Reiniciando a su nueva sistema de Ubuntu..."
[06:13] <Kamion> and edit debian/po/LANGUAGE.po if you want to change translations too
[06:13] <Kamion> jpatrick: irrelevant since it's changed in dapper now anyway ...
[06:14] <Kamion> (although otherwise it could be changed, sure)
[06:14] <feistel> ok I try
[06:14] <feistel> jpatrick: nuevo is fine
[06:15] <jpatrick> but it's female
[06:15] <pitti> Riddell: can you please merge the kubuntu seeds against the latest ubuntu ones? there were several commits which weren't merged immediately and I'm not sure which pacakges you want
[06:16] <Riddell> pitti: ok, doing
[06:16] <pitti> thank you
[06:17] <feistel> Kamion: debian/po/es.po file say
[06:17] <feistel> # DO NOT MODIFY IT DIRECTLY : SUCH CHANGES WILL BE LOST
[06:18] <Kamion> feistel: only applies if you're working in upstream d-i svn
[06:18] <Kamion> which you aren't
[06:18] <feistel> no
[06:18] <feistel> ok I trt
[06:18] <feistel> try
[06:19] <Riddell> Kamion: are you editing the kubuntu seeds?
[06:22] <Kamion> Riddell: no
[06:22] <feistel> Kamion: how I debuild the package? I try dpkg-source -b , but don't generate a .udeb file
[06:22] <jono> later all
[06:22] <Kamion> feistel: install the devscripts and fakeroot packages, run 'debuild'
[06:22] <Kamion> do not use dpkg-source -b
[06:23] <feistel> Kamion: inside the directory?
[06:23] <Kamion> feistel: yes
[06:23] <feistel> ok I try
[06:24] <WaterSevenUb> kamion, the accelerator keys shouldn't be underlined in the menu?
[06:25] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: they don't work at all at the moment :-)
[06:25] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: so no
[06:25] <WaterSevenUb> kamion, ah:)
[06:25] <Riddell> network-manager is on live?
[06:25] <Kamion> they're just there for future support
[06:25] <Kamion> Riddell: on Ubuntu, yes
[06:30] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, sent you the file by email.
[06:30] <Kamion> sivang: pitti's right, you don't need to CC us for approval of simple bug fixes that don't involve sucking in new upstream versions
[06:31] <sivang> Kamion: okay, sorry for the noise then. Will not happen again.
[06:34] <Kamion> Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/casper/preseed/ FYI - I've uploaded it
[06:34] <feistel> Kamion: is planned a Ubuntu Graphic Installer?
[06:35] <sivang> pitti: http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/culmus/breezy/ , see if it's okay now. (there's a debdiff there) I did the update you requested.
[06:35] <Kamion> feistel: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress
[06:36] <feistel> Kamion: yes, I know about Ubuntu Express
[06:38] <Kamion> feistel: if you're referring to a graphical version of d-i, I'm keeping an occasional eye on the work being done upstream on that, but until it stabilises somewhat more I don't intend to do the work needed to integrate it into Ubuntu
[06:38] <feistel> ok
[06:38] <sivang> pitti: I'm off for some time, be back in 1 hours, let me know if you could upload.
[06:44] <Kamion> mvo: I'm planning to use python-apt (either the old API or the new one, whatever works ...) to install language packs in espresso
[06:45] <Kamion> mvo: in either API, is there a way to cancel a download in progress?
[06:45] <Kamion> so make the fetchprogress object be able to say "user cancelled operation" or something
[06:47] <mvo> Kamion: yes, fetchprogress.pulse() is called regularely. if you return False in it, the fetch will be stopped
[06:47] <mvo> Kamion: I would recommend the new api if at all possible, if you need anything for it, let me know
[06:48] <Kamion> ah, yeah, just found the same by trawling through apt code :)
[06:48] <Kamion> thanks, will do
[06:48] <Kamion> right, that sounds perfect, matches well to debconf's progresscancel interface
[06:49] <mvo> Kamion: nice. do you plan to use vte+gtkprogress for the actual installing?
[06:50] <Kamion> mvo: probably not - I already have a progress interface so I'll map it onto that
[06:50] <Kamion> and I think a terminal will not be required
[06:50] <Kamion> well, not a visible one anyway
[06:50] <Kamion> although if it turns out to be necessary I'll use vte, sure
[06:51] <Kamion> I may end up just making debconf-apt-progress understand progresscancel, in fact
[06:52] <mvo> Kamion: ok. let me know if you if I can help you with the interface in any way
[07:20] <BenC> Is there any way to delete targets for bugs in launchpad?
[07:21] <dholbach> no, you can just Reject/FixReleased them
[07:22] <mantiena> doko, do you plan to include OOo 2.0.2 in Ubuntu Dapper ?
[07:22] <BenC> yeah, but some users pollute things, and I just want to kill off the silliness
[07:26] <Amaranth> what bug?
[07:30] <setuid> Why was aes256 removed from dapper? (this worked fine in breezy)
[07:30] <setuid> ioctl: LOOP_SET_STATUS: Invalid argument, requested cipher or key length (256 bits) not supported by kernel
[07:30] <LaserJock> yes, it is confusing to me when I get "Fix Released" or "Rejected" emails when the bug is still open
[07:30] <setuid> And I have aes_i586 loaded
[07:31] <Amaranth> LaserJock: People need to give better comments when they change the bug details. :)
[07:32] <LaserJock> Amaranth: or people need to be able to separate/remove tasks ;-) probably both I think
[07:38] <Kamion> mvo: I think the most "fun" bit will be that I have to run all this in a chroot
[07:39] <Kamion> might be able to persuade apt to operate that way, otherwise I'll just copy bits of python around
[07:40] <mvo> Kamion: right. you should be able to do most of it by setting "apt_pkg.Config.Set("Dir::") hopefully
[07:40] <Kamion> thanks, hope so
[08:03] <wftl> I'm playing with yesterday's Dapper live CD. Just wanted to say to whoever is responsible that the Espresso Installer is great. I know it's not completely done, but I'm very impressed.
[08:03] <mantiena> :)
[08:05] <jfbeckers> hi
[08:11] <sladen> wftl: excellent;  I'm sure people will be glade to hear it.  Did you find any bugs or parts that you think could be improved?
[08:13] <wftl> sladen: Nothing major. The keyboard section is missing, no big deal at this stage. The install went through quite smoothly. So now I'm busy writing the chapter that covers it. I'll do another pass before it's done but I feel confident enough about it to put it on paper (so to speak) :-)
[08:13] <wftl> What would be really cool is an option to transfer the network settings I configured while running live. That would be amazing.
[08:13] <sladen> wftl: nod
[08:14] <sladen> wftl: can you file it as a bug please
[08:14] <wftl> Where?
[08:14] <wftl> I'm just a lowly author. ;-)
[08:14] <Kamion> mvo: oh, hang on, do you mean literally "Dir::" or is that shorthand for various items under Dir:: ?
[08:14] <Kamion> wftl: thanks for the feedback!
[08:14] <Kamion> wftl: it should copy your network settings automatically, actually
[08:14] <wftl> Kamion: Is thatyour baby?
[08:14] <Kamion> wftl: yep
[08:15] <wftl> Nice.
[08:15] <wftl> Must be something in this development version then. The settings didn't follow me.
[08:15] <sladen> Kamion: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/expresso/+filebug didn't work, where's the place to point people to?
[08:15] <Kamion> FYI the language and timezone UIs are reasonably close to final, keymap obviously isn't, username etc. will change as will the partitioner
[08:15] <Kamion> sladen: spell "espresso" right
[08:16] <Kamion> wftl: hmm, that's a bug, I don't know why it wouldn't - please file that one and I'll have a look
[08:16] <wftl> Kamion: Sure thing. I almost hate saying this, but I wish I had a Windows machine to test a dual-boot install.
[08:17] <Kamion> yeah, I keep a scratch Windows CD around so I can test that occasionally
[08:17] <Kamion> it's ... painful
[08:17] <wftl> Understood.
[08:18] <Kamion> wftl: oh, we forgot to add that hook in casper (networking)
[08:18] <Kamion> should be easy to fix
[08:19] <sladen> wftl: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/espresso/+filebug  would be the case then :)
[08:19] <Mithrandir> Kamion: 'k, can you send it to me in a mail, since I'm in the middle of brewing beer? :-)
[08:20] <Kamion> Mithrandir: send which?
[08:20] <Mithrandir> Kamion: the "please merge $url, kthx"
[08:20] <wftl> Kamion: Bug #33064 filed.
[08:20] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33064 in espresso "Network settings not carried through installation" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33064
[08:21] <wftl> Hmm . . . just saw the last message about casper.  Kind of makes the bug report redundant.
[08:21] <Kamion> Mithrandir: done
[08:21] <Kamion> wftl: never hurts to have a bug reminder, thanks
[08:22] <wftl> My pleasure. Thank you.
[08:23] <Kamion> might not do it in casper though, I was thinking of having an espresso-netcfg
[08:23] <Kamion> so I can have /etc/hosts and stuff too
[08:23] <Kamion> we'll see
[08:48] <mdz> Kamion: just did an espresso test on amd64; it seemed to go splendidly until the reboot, which failed very early with GRUB error 15.  is there a known problem there?
[08:51] <Kamion> mdz: yup, should be fixed as of a couple of days ago - the grub package just wasn't getting installed
[08:51] <Kamion> were you testing flight-4?
[08:51] <mdz> Kamion: no, the most recent daily I have been able to get
[08:51] <Kamion> I added grub to the live seed to get around that
[08:51] <mdz> I'll check the version
[08:51] <Kamion> mdz: check whether grub's in the live filesystem
[08:52] <Kamion> failing that, I would like /var/log/installer/espresso
[08:52] <mdz> Kamion: the user experience for the simple install case is looking quite nice
[08:53] <Kamion> the upload I did today adds better error checking for that case, anyhow, so that should improve matters too (not to mention that it actually builds on amd64)
[08:53] <Kamion> good, glad you liked it
[08:53] <Kamion> is now a good time to talk about progress?
[08:53] <mdz> yes
[08:54] <mdz> I wanted to actually have a look at a recent version first
[08:54] <Kamion> mm, the version you had will be missing the timezone page
[08:54] <mdz> it's been too long since I had time to do a round of CD tests
[08:54] <Kamion> it might be worth dist-upgrading the live CD before starting espresso
[08:54] <mdz> yes, I don't recall being prompted for that
[08:55] <mdz> grub is not installed in my live fs
[08:55] <Kamion> I gave the URL to a screenshot in last week's progress meeting, anyway
[08:55] <Kamion> ok, perhaps the live fs is just out of date
[08:55] <mdz> eek, 130M dist-upgrade
[08:55] <mdz> might be just enough memory to do it
[08:55] <Kamion> which is curious, the log for today's build looks fine and includes grub
[08:56] <Kamion> apt-get install espresso should be enough
[08:57] <mdz> Kamion: hmm, where can I find the CD  build number on the CD filesystem these days?
[08:58] <mdz> on a live CD
[08:59] <Kamion> /cdrom/.disk/info probably
[08:59] <Kamion> although you'll have to mount /cdrom separately, current casper doesn't bind-mount its own mount into the real root
[08:59] <Kamion> which I think is sort of a bug
[09:01] <mdz> ok, had to upgrade espresso-* also to get it going
[09:01] <mdz> but am running another attempt now
[09:01] <mdz> time zone selector looked and worked as expected
[09:01] <mdz> eek, it's dated 20060218
[09:01] <mdz> but I downloaded it last week
[09:02] <mdz> Kamion: what's the name of that wiki page you created with the espresso task list?
[09:03] <mdz> ah, UbuntuExpress/Todo
[09:03] <ogra> mdz, dailies were disabled some days due to flight preparation
[09:03] <mdz> Kamion: the partitioning step feels much more responsive now
[09:08] <Kamion> it's remarkable how much a blocked UI process is noticeable even if you aren't explicitly trying to provoke it
[09:10] <Kamion> so of the features I listed on Thursday: I've done the preseeding glue, state of localisation is better but I still need to finish the debconf multi-line METAGET work I alluded to in order to make it work properly throughout (am working with upstream on that)
[09:10] <Kamion> and I've done all the prereqs for language pack installation and am working on the actual code for it now
[09:11] <Kamion> (I expected to defer the preseeding glue, until I remembered that it was necessary for language pack support)
[09:11] <mdz> ok
[09:11] <mdz> how is the keymap work coming?
[09:12] <Kamion> I gave JaneW a run-down of approximate percentages complete of the various specs on Friday, which I think she was going to work into her report
[09:12] <mdz> (apart from Mithrandir being occupied this week)
[09:13] <Kamion> Mithrandir said to me a couple of days ago that "it's not there yet, but I can give you what I have, which shouldn't be utterly wrong and bad"; I think it was qwerty-only or some such but otherwise functional
[09:13] <mdz> sabdfl: good morning
[09:13] <Kamion> I've been encouraging him to get it to me before the UI sprint
[09:13] <mdz> yes, the percentages made it into JaneW's report
[09:14] <mdz> Kamion: are espresso bug reports making their way to you effectively?
[09:14] <Kamion> mdz: yes
[09:14] <LaserJock> umm, since a few of the TB are here, has the next TB meeting been scheduled?
[09:15] <mdz> LaserJock: it's tomorrow at the usual time
[09:15] <LaserJock> mdz: yikes? really?
[09:16] <mdz> LaserJock: it's been at the same time every two weeks forever
[09:16] <mdz> it's in the Fridge calendar feed
[09:16] <LaserJock> mdz: no it's not
[09:16] <LaserJock> and the wiki hasn't been updated either
[09:17] <mdz> it usually is
[09:17] <mdz> and the wiki is updated now
[09:18] <LaserJock> mdz: ok, thanks. I'm not trying to be a pain, but I'm not sure if I can be there at the beginning. I'm up for MOTU (deferred from last TB meeting)
[09:19] <mdz> Kamion: is there more work remaining on the partitioner apart from the advanced/gparted bits?
[09:19] <mdz> the UI seems to need some adjustment to match the spec
[09:19] <mdz> but backend-wies?
[09:19] <mdz> wise?
[09:20] <Kamion> mdz: my feeling is that by far the easiest way to beat the partitioning UI into shape is to change the backend to match what mpt described
[09:20] <Kamion> that will change the behaviour of the traditional installer as well, but I think it will probably be worth it
[09:21] <Kamion> there are alternative approaches, but they seem over-complex and fragile to me
[09:21] <mdz> Kamion: how big are the code changes for that?
[09:22] <Kamion> mdz: I haven't gone through and itemised them yet, but I think they should be pretty surgical
[09:22] <Kamion> the most complicated bit is the proposed disk chooser, and if need be it'll be possible to leave that out
[09:22] <mdz> ok
[09:22] <mdz> I'll be in london on the 6th
[09:23] <Kamion> most of the rest is just string changes (which can be made for Espresso alone if we want) and running os-prober in a few strategic places
[09:23] <mdz> Kamion: would some pygtk manpower help?
[09:23] <Kamion> mdz: honestly, not really
[09:25] <mdz> Kamion: what would?
[09:25] <Kamion> about the only bit on the to-do list that's amenable to general pygtk hacking is moving the breadcrumbs to be "step x of y" and maybe fixing the back button
[09:25] <Kamion> perhaps partman help
[09:26] <mdz> have anyone in mind?
[09:26] <Kamion> I think the people we have who know their way around that are Mithrandir and fabbione
[09:27] <Kamion> the partman changes can be made without espresso experience, imho
[09:28] <mdz> anyone upstream/external who might be a bounty candidate?
[09:28] <fabbione> sorry... -ENOTIME...
[09:28] <Kamion> just a tiny bit of hacking at the end to fit stuff in
[09:28] <fabbione> i am trying to fix parted too
[09:28] <fabbione> that's already a hell of a job
[09:28] <mdz> fix parted?
[09:29] <fabbione> mdz: yes there is a catch 22 with libparted
[09:29] <mdz> please explain
[09:29] <Kamion> if Anton Zinoviev weren't at the end of a piece of wet string in Bulgaria that only gets connected once a month or so, I'd suggest him like a shot
[09:29] <fabbione> they did implement some CHS checks that are not exctly understood by part_server
[09:29] <fabbione> mdz: it's arch specific but it is an issue that needs to be solved
[09:29] <mdz> jdub: the fridge calendar has the TB meeting 2 weeks from tomorrow, but not tomorrow's
[09:30] <mdz> fabbione: for sparc?
[09:30] <fabbione> mdz: yes
[09:31] <fabbione> mdz: it is quite of a blocker for d-i at the moment
[09:31] <fabbione> all the other pieces are in place or so it seems
[09:31] <mdz> fabbione: what happened since breezy to break it?
[09:31] <Kamion> otherwise everyone just nibbles round the edges of partman; Martin Michlmayr's done some bits, Sven Luther, joeyh obviously, Jurij Smakov's done sparc bits
[09:31] <fabbione> mdz: that's what i am still digging :)
[09:32] <Kamion> I don't think there's anyone external strong enough to make farming it out worth the risk
[09:35] <wftl> Does the live CD have the option for a persistent home directory, a la Knoppix, so that subsequent boots recall the user's settings?
[09:35] <Kamion> on the other hand I'll be talking to upstream for the advanced partitioning side of things, so I don't expect to have to do much more on that myself
[09:35] <Kamion> wftl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDPersistence
[09:35] <wftl> Kamion : Thank you.
[09:37] <Kamion> I have to go in a moment for quality time; perhaps we can continue this later / by e-mail if there's more you want to talk about
[09:38] <Kamion> by the way, I've got to admit that the new python-apt API looks lovely
[09:38] <mdz> Kamion: this has been helpful, thanks
[09:39] <mdz> Kamion: I'm still concerned about our timeline, though; let's follow up at a later time
[09:39] <Kamion> ok
[10:10] <Pygi> when will logout/shutdown stop changing every day? :)
[10:13] <dredg> for random values of 'tomorrow'
[10:15] <Pygi> dredg: hehe :)
[10:15] <LaserJock> I'm missing all that joy since I just ssh into my Ubuntu box, I'm pretty much CLI only at this point :(
[10:16] <ogra> whats wrong with ssh -X ?
[10:17] <LaserJock> ogra: I do a bit of that, but over DSL -X is pretty slow, even vnc is kinda slow, but I use it when I need to test GUI stuff out
[10:17] <dredg> in work i'm 100% on my mac these days, until i get around to fixing kerberized nfs
[10:17] <ogra> LaserJock, i wasnt serious :)
[10:18] <trappist> LaserJock: ssh -X -c blowfish is quite a bit faster
[10:19] <dredg> it's ssh -Y these days
[10:19] <LaserJock> actually I've been doing quite a bit with vnc lately, I wish vnc4 was fixed, tightvnc seems to have weird keymapping problems
[10:19] <ogra> dont forget -C :)
[10:19] <LaserJock> trappist: thanks for the hint, I'll try that
[10:19] <dredg> i tend to use -c none, but that's prerequisite to patching ssh
[10:21] <dredg> plus it's not the kind of thing you want unless you're damn sure you know you want it :)
[10:23] <LaserJock> hmm, "ssh -Y -c blowfish" is very fast on my local network. cool!
[10:26] <LaserJock> still, it's too bad vnc4 is so messed up. I really liked it for slower (DSL) connections
[10:26] <psusi> I don't like ssh, and kerberos even less... shared secret < public key < x.509 digital certificates
[10:27] <dredg> kerberos is, IMO, essential for nfsv3.
[10:27] <psusi> well it's better than no authentication I suppose
[10:28] <dredg> yeah. what's wrong with kerberos?
[10:28] <psusi> it's based on shared secrets
[10:28] <psusi> you generate a password and both the server and client have to know it
[10:29] <psusi> that doesn't scale well, nor it it very secure
[10:29] <psusi> crack a KDC and you've got everyone's password
[10:29] <dredg> when you come up with a widely supported better way let me know
[10:29] <psusi> one exists... x.509 digital certificates
[10:30] <psusi> aka Public Key Cryptography Standards number 7, 12, and friends
[10:30] <psusi> implemented by openssl
[10:31] <psusi> not sure if there's a pam module out there that uses it or not... hrm...
[10:31] <dredg> yeah, i need pam and ssh and a whole bunch of client apps to support it
[10:33] <psusi> iirc, there's a generic ssl wrapper package you can use to wrap plain old telnet... no need for ssh... and I use it at work here to authenticate with apache/subversion
[10:33] <dredg> krb5 isn't perfect but it works quite well without changing too much for users. and because everyone's homedir is on nfs, it needs to work with that too
[10:33] <dredg> i have an X forwarding requirement
[10:34] <dredg> and a portforwarding requirement. and a whole bunch of ssh gateways that take onetime passwords that i expect to be able to forward ports through
[10:34] <psusi> ipsec can take care of that
[10:35] <psusi> transparent encryption and authentication for all services...
[10:35] <dredg> have ipsec as well for vpn. this is just for external ssh access
[10:35] <dredg> i find port forwarding quicker
[10:36] <dredg> but more importantly, what changes need to be made for a few thousand users from my POV and their POV to continue doing their jobs?
[10:37] <psusi> configure the client and server to use ipsec to encrypt their connections
[10:40] <psusi> aha! found one!
[10:40] <psusi> PKCS #11 PAM Login Tools, rock on!
[10:50] <CarlFK> should the installer be trying to recognize existing raid and LV configs?  Because it is trying, but sometimes failing
[10:53] <CarlFK> personally, I don't think it should try - but maybe it doesn't have a choice given that it uses the partition table to store the settings when moving in and out of "setup RAID" option 
[10:57] <jroes> shouldn't we do a bugreport instead of bugging them?
[10:57] <Burgwork> jroes, yes, you should
[10:57] <Pygi> jroes, wrong channel :)
[10:58] <jroes> Burgwork: ;)
[11:04] <Pygi> just a sec...is PnP ACPI supposed to work only on Laptops?
[11:16] <astronut> does raphael hertzog come on IRC?
[11:18] <seb128> he's buxy
[11:19] <astronut> oh
[11:28] <setuid> Where do I need to lobotomize the Ubuntu grub config to *NOT* neuter my kernel lines every time a distro kernel is added to the system? 
[11:28] <setuid> I build and run my own kernels, and changes to menu.lst get clobbered every time dapper upgrades an existing distro kernel
[11:28] <seb128> ?
[11:28] <setuid> seb128: What was unclear about that? 
[11:29] <seb128> what got changed to grub
[11:29] <seb128> you don't want to get the installed kernel to be listed?
[11:29] <setuid> Changed "to" grub? Nothing, its the default bootloader. 
[11:29] <setuid> No. 
[11:29] <seb128> to grub config
[11:29] <setuid> Ok, let me try rewording it 
[11:30] <seb128> if you want to play on the words, I don't want to start trolling
[11:30] <setuid> dapper has a 2.6.15-whatever kernel by default.. 
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: there is a template
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: in the file
[11:30] <seb128> find somebody else to figtr with
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: look for 'template'
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: it controls what the generated content looks like
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: and 
[11:30] <seb128> ### BEGIN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
[11:30] <seb128> ## DO NOT UNCOMMENT THEM, Just edit them to your needs
[11:30] <setuid> I build and put System.map + kernel into /boot, and add the appropriate stanza in menu.lst
[11:30] <seb128> did you follow those stuff?
[11:30] <lifeless> setuid: you can put whatever you like outside of the ### BEGING AUTOMAGIC... END AUTOMAGIC section
[11:30] <setuid> I add the kernel lines I require to the stanza
[11:31] <lifeless> and update-grub won't touch it
[11:31] <setuid> lifeless: I need it to be kernel-specific, not global
[11:31] <seb128> after the automagic part?
[11:31] <lifeless> setuid: in short, we know your problem, read the file content more closely, it does exactly what you need
[11:31] <seb128> list your stuff after "### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST"
[11:31] <setuid> Ok, so my kernel stanza should go below that dreck, gotcha
[11:31] <setuid> I'll try that
[11:31] <koke> anybody knows why update-manager is arch-dependant??
[11:31] <seb128> the comments make it pretty clear
[11:32] <setuid> There's a nasty glibc double-free bug that's trashing lots of apps 
[11:32] <seb128> if people would start by reading ...
[11:32] <lifeless> seb128: yeah.
[11:32] <lifeless> seb128: we need a click through agreement obviously ;)
[11:32] <seb128> hehe
[11:32] <setuid> "people" should stop fucking with the default application behavior
[11:32] <seb128> are you sure that the double free is from glib?
[11:32] <setuid> glibc, not glib
[11:32] <seb128> or that's rather glib detecting a double free from a lib?
[11:32] <seb128> playing on words again
[11:32] <seb128> libc if you prefer
[11:33] <setuid> sec, it just happened with gdmsetup
[11:33] <lifeless> setuid: glibc reports double frees, but it is not likely to be glibc itself *having* the bug
[11:33] <setuid> glib != glibc, its not a play on words, its called being accurate
[11:33] <setuid> lifeless: possibly
[11:33] <seb128> right, but you made clear which one you were mentionning
[11:33] <lifeless> setuid: try running gdmsetup under valgrind then
[11:33] <seb128> there is some gdmsetup crasher and double free known
[11:33] <seb128> and fixed with tarball rolled like 1 hour ago
[11:34] <setuid> Lots of weird wacky things since moving from Breezy to Dapper
[11:34] <seb128> going to be updated if I stop chating on IRC :p
[11:34] <setuid> Lots of application behavior changed 
[11:34] <seb128> welcome to an unstable distro
[11:34] <setuid> Of course
[11:34] <lifeless> seb128: shoo
[11:34] <setuid> I ran Debian unstable for years, I know the drill
[11:34] <lifeless> seb128: go package :0
[11:35] <seb128> Debian unstable is not that unstable
[11:35] <seb128> ie: we package unstable GNOME to experimental
[11:35] <seb128> not to unstable
[11:39] <astronut> seb128: what nick does he use?
[11:39] <astronut> i had typed that, and forgot to send it
[11:39] <seb128> buxy?
[11:40] <astronut> oh, thought you meant he was "busy"
[11:40] <astronut> sorry
[11:40] <astronut> and just made a typo
[11:42] <seb128> np :)
[11:55] <ploum> hello cassidy :-)
[11:55] <cassidy> hi ploum