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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 1 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 1 Mar 19:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 2 Mar 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | ||
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| manils | hello all | 07:47 |
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| ogra | hey all | 01:00 |
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| highvoltage | hey | 01:01 |
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| ogra | where is flint ? | 01:02 |
| ogra | ah | 01:02 |
| ogra | :) | 01:02 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 01:02 |
| pips1 | hi | 01:02 |
| ogra | so can we start ? | 01:02 |
| flint_ | ogra, I want to get one of those remote starters to pre warm ubuntu-meeting so it is warm when we get here! | 01:02 |
| flint_ | :^) | 01:02 |
| ogra | tech update is rather small today | 01:03 |
| flint_ | ogra, lol exce..ent | 01:03 |
| ogra | flint_, heh | 01:03 |
| pips1 | is JaneW coming? | 01:03 |
| ogra | the CD exploded some days ago when the ubuntu example-content package was added, i dont think we can ship it :/ | 01:03 |
| ogra | nope, JaneW has a bank holiday | 01:04 |
| ogra | elections in southafrica | 01:04 |
| pips1 | ah | 01:04 |
| highvoltage | what's the example-content package? | 01:04 |
| pips1 | ogra: you mean, we won't be able to ship the example-content on the edubuntu cds? | 01:04 |
| ogra | its a 7Mb package and we simply dont have this much ... i'm not even sure we have 1MB on ppc amd64 | 01:04 |
| flint_ | small general good news, crsoosver 5.0.1 and ms office on top work on the badger version of edubuntu real well... | 01:04 |
| ogra | highvoltage, example content for all apps we ship to play around with | 01:05 |
| highvoltage | ogra: i see. does that include example content for ktouch? that seems to be in high demand. | 01:05 |
| ogra | its an awesome idea ... but as long as we ship kdeedu we wont have the space | 01:06 |
| ogra | highvoltage, nope | 01:06 |
| ogra | its ubuntu specific, not edubuntu | 01:06 |
| ogra | there are some openoffice docs, some svg and bitmaps etc ... | 01:06 |
| ogra | summing up to a 7MB package | 01:07 |
| ogra | i'd really appreciate if someone could start research for replacements of kdeedu for dapper+1 | 01:07 |
| ogra | that would gain us ~100Mb (guessed) | 01:08 |
| highvoltage | ogra: i suppose it's a lot of work to do a dvd version, hey? | 01:08 |
| highvoltage | really? wow! i didn't realise it was *that* much | 01:08 |
| pips1 | ogra: how do the space requirements add up in all? I mean, how much space is ubuntu taking in comparison to edubuntu-specific stuff? | 01:08 |
| ogra | highvoltage, not really, but we decided we want to be available in areas weher no DVD players are available | 01:08 |
| ogra | highvoltage, even if its 50, it would be wonderful ... | 01:09 |
| ogra | pips1, we take more than 70MB more and i already disabled what i could from ubuntu | 01:09 |
| flint_ | highvoltage, it is not just the dvd player, it is the bandwidth necessary to deliver a 4.8Gb iso eh | 01:10 |
| ogra | note that amd64 with the same set of software wouldnt even build, we dont have tuxpaint on amd64 ... | 01:10 |
| ogra | highvoltage, we still have the DVD that contains all of main... | 01:11 |
| ogra | but it wont be our main media for now | 01:11 |
| pips1 | ogra: you are saying that you need to get rid of 70 MB because it exceeds the limit for a cd currently, right? | 01:11 |
| ogra | i guess at some point where we ship something that enables you to manage the whole school we'll have no choice ... | 01:11 |
| highvoltage | yep, i'm just in two worlds about kde-edu, it's a real nice, active project, just a pity we need to install so much in order to run it | 01:11 |
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| flint_ | highvoltage, keep in mind that 70 mb of cd is 10 percent... | 01:12 |
| ogra | pips1, i cann keep the CD in shape .... currently its fine, but we dont have any space left ... | 01:12 |
| ogra | which brings me to the next tech topic | 01:12 |
| highvoltage | dvd players seem to be vrey, very common already. perhaps by dapper+2 it would be much more plausible | 01:12 |
| ogra | we have a edubuntu-docs packag since last week | 01:12 |
| ogra | i'm waiting for Kamion to push it through NEW | 01:12 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | highvoltage: but only in 'the first world' | 01:13 |
| flint_ | ogra, got a url? | 01:13 |
| highvoltage | Kamping_Kaiser: and 3rd world | 01:13 |
| ogra | it contains a modified version of the two ooo docs highvoltage presented last time | 01:13 |
| ogra | flint_, once its through new: sudo apt-get install edubuntu-docs | 01:13 |
| highvoltage | ogra: that's in html now, right? | 01:13 |
| ogra | yup | 01:13 |
| ogra | i'll rework it | 01:13 |
| flint_ | ogra, this is excellent news! bet he did not have a beautiful illustrator to charm like jonathan did... | 01:14 |
| ogra | but first i'm adding some basic docs for our ltsp ... | 01:14 |
| pips1 | ogra: what's up with the feature freeze... did schooltool make it in time? | 01:14 |
| ogra | pips1, schooltool sits in debian and waits for a sync ... | 01:14 |
| ogra | the launchpad feature for syncing is still not ready, so we're all waiting for that | 01:15 |
| ogra | but it was requested and approved in time ... | 01:15 |
| ogra | so we'll get it, dont worry | 01:15 |
| flint_ | ogra, shcooltool is important. will the old version be included otherwise? | 01:15 |
| pips1 | ogra: ic | 01:15 |
| ogra | flint_, that wont work | 01:15 |
| highvoltage | flint_: you just won't let that go, will you ;) | 01:16 |
| flint_ | ogra, gotcha. does it have to do with its zope3-ishness? | 01:16 |
| ogra | yup | 01:16 |
| flint_ | highvoltage, jonathan, the man the legend :^) | 01:16 |
| ogra | but dont worry, schooltool will be in | 01:16 |
| ogra | jane and i decided to make a separate spec for the network swap stuff, it can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FullyAutomaticSwapServer | 01:17 |
| highvoltage | ogra and jane++ | 01:18 |
| ogra | i'm also thinking about a kiosk mode on ltsp level for dapper+1 | 01:18 |
| ogra | that should gain us a lot of points in public librarys and internet cafes :) | 01:19 |
| flint_ | ogra, we marketing weasels always like a good demo kiosk. | 01:19 |
| highvoltage | i think it will be a hit | 01:19 |
| ogra | flint_, you just had to add the --kiosk argument to the ltsp-build-client command that sets up ltsp and the rest will be done automatically :) | 01:20 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i agree with highvoltage and otehrs ther | 01:20 |
| ogra | just boot the clients :) | 01:20 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | *others there | 01:20 |
| flint_ | ogra, gotcha, which flight should i try this with? | 01:21 |
| ogra | ok, thats it with tech update ... | 01:21 |
| ogra | flint_, flightX of dapper+1 ;) | 01:21 |
| ogra | its a plan for next release ... | 01:21 |
| ogra | since the question for kiosk mode comes up quite often | 01:22 |
| highvoltage | on the website, there's not too much of a change yet. | 01:22 |
| ogra | ok, any news in the doc area ? | 01:22 |
| flint_ | ogra, ollie, we should move on to annoying the edubuntu cooks | 01:22 |
| ogra | jelkner, ? | 01:22 |
| === pips1 wants to get his hands on that schooltool release, and wonders how "ready" it is for the class room, since it it only an "alpha development snapshot" | ||
| highvoltage | sorry, i just jumped in there | 01:22 |
| ogra | highvoltage, no, its fine ... | 01:23 |
| flint_ | pips1, we gotta talk... email flint@flint.com schooltool in subject. | 01:23 |
| ogra | if you have something doc related ... | 01:23 |
| pips1 | maybe it needs to be pointed out in the edubuntu doc that schooltool is an alpha release, cf. http://www.schooltool.org/products/schooltool-2006/releases/2006.0-alpha1 | 01:23 |
| pips1 | ? | 01:23 |
| === highvoltage agrees | ||
| flint_ | ogra, kcole and jelkner just got back from pycon, and they may be a little "py-eyed" from the flight | 01:24 |
| ogra | pips1, i'm pretty sure thats not what we ship | 01:25 |
| jelkner | ogra: yes? | 01:25 |
| pips1 | ogra: no?! | 01:25 |
| flint_ | the news from pycon in dallas is that while they may be dead from the flight back to DC, Lore lives! take it away Jeff... | 01:25 |
| jelkner | we have the cookbook on the wiki | 01:26 |
| flint_ | jelkner, now is the moment when you give the url jeffster. | 01:26 |
| jelkner | kevin and i will try to write a few chapters on installing and setting up edubuntu as soon as the release gets closer and things are likely to change less frequently | 01:26 |
| ogra | pips1, if that the one we ship, i agree, i'll have to check if that 2006, i think its thae last release of the last release we have :) | 01:27 |
| ogra | (and not 2006-alpha) | 01:27 |
| jelkner | a google search for "edubuntu cookbook" returns the launchpad page on top | 01:28 |
| jelkner | this is not what we would like | 01:28 |
| flint_ | jelkner, the sooner you to get me a url the faster I can whine about details, pepper you with critisim and hector you for minor changes. | 01:28 |
| jelkner | https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-cooks | 01:28 |
| ogra | jelkner, thats hard to influence | 01:28 |
| jelkner | is the launchpad page | 01:28 |
| highvoltage | jelkner: many people would like to change their google rankings, you just can't control it :/ | 01:29 |
| flint_ | jelkner, thanks, i mean all that in the nicest way.:^) | 01:29 |
| jelkner | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook | 01:29 |
| jelkner | is the wiki page | 01:29 |
| highvoltage | jelkner: where would you like it to point? perhaps we can make that page more googlable | 01:29 |
| jelkner | the wiki page | 01:29 |
| highvoltage | jelkner: perhaps you should link to that wiki page then from the launchpad page? | 01:30 |
| jelkner | which doesn't show up anywhere in the goolge search that i can see | 01:30 |
| ogra | jelkner, can you link the wikipage from launchpad somewhere ? | 01:30 |
| highvoltage | jelkner: it will also push up the ranks for the wiki page in google then | 01:30 |
| jelkner | we did | 01:30 |
| jelkner | but it is not at all easy to follow | 01:30 |
| ogra | https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-cooks doesnt have it ... | 01:31 |
| jelkner | kevin and i could not figure out how to make a link on the lauchpad page using something like an anchore tag | 01:31 |
| ogra | how ddi you get the other link in there | 01:31 |
| jelkner | it does, ogra, but you have to See https://launchpad.net/products/edubuntu.cookbook | 01:31 |
| highvoltage | jelkner: you can just type it like you did here in irc, you don't need tags and stuff | 01:32 |
| jelkner | yes, but it then looks hideous | 01:32 |
| jelkner | it is too long to fit in the box | 01:32 |
| jelkner | and the text runs over into the sidebar | 01:32 |
| ogra | jelkner, ah, just put a hint into the description or something ... | 01:32 |
| jelkner | orgra: i'm not sure what you mean? | 01:33 |
| pips1 | Quote from the launchpad page "For a look at the current cookbook, click on the link to the home page in the left menu." | 01:33 |
| ogra | "please click on the homepage link on the left to get to the wiki page" | 01:33 |
| jelkner | ahh | 01:33 |
| jelkner | will do | 01:33 |
| ogra | oh, ah | 01:33 |
| ogra | i'm blind | 01:33 |
| ogra | sorry :) | 01:33 |
| pips1 | ogra: I had to look twice myself :-) | 01:34 |
| ogra | heh :) | 01:34 |
| flint_ | jelkner, looks pretty good to me... | 01:34 |
| jelkner | ok, that's about it for the cookbook | 01:35 |
| flint_ | jelkner, nah, tell us about lore... | 01:35 |
| highvoltage | lore? | 01:35 |
| jelkner | lore is twisted's markup language | 01:36 |
| jelkner | they use it for all the docs on twitedmatrix.com | 01:36 |
| jelkner | i've been using it for stuff that i do on the open book project site | 01:36 |
| jelkner | moshe zadka wrote it | 01:36 |
| jelkner | george paci is maintaining it | 01:37 |
| flint_ | highvoltage, jonathan, watch yourself here, there is a very high cliff approaching, great view but dangerous... | 01:37 |
| jelkner | and moshe and george are getting together at pycon to sprint on it | 01:37 |
| jelkner | (or rather, hopefully they did already ;-) | 01:37 |
| highvoltage | flint_: that's how i like it ;) | 01:37 |
| jelkner | ok, i gotta run | 01:37 |
| flint_ | jelkner, jeff the reason you use it is because it is gods gift to indexing eh? | 01:37 |
| flint_ | thanks jeff!!! | 01:37 |
| jelkner | bye | 01:38 |
| ogra | ciao jelkner | 01:38 |
| ogra | and tzhanks | 01:38 |
| ogra | hmpf | 01:38 |
| ogra | anything else doc related ? | 01:38 |
| highvoltage | tha'ts it for doc then? | 01:38 |
| flint_ | ogra, imagine getting a meeting done early! would jane be suprised? | 01:39 |
| ogra | heh, might be | 01:39 |
| ogra | so, artwork anyone ? | 01:39 |
| === ogra didnt do work on the artwork package last week | ||
| highvoltage | if there's any updates? sure. | 01:39 |
| flint_ | ogra, artwork going once...artwork going twice....SOLD! | 01:39 |
| ogra | flint_, to whom ? | 01:40 |
| highvoltage | ok, then may i jump in with a very quick website update now? | 01:40 |
| flint_ | hehe | 01:40 |
| === highvoltage goes anywya | ||
| ogra | yeah | 01:40 |
| flint_ | highvoltage, go for it!! | 01:40 |
| pips1 | highvoltage: please | 01:40 |
| highvoltage | i just aked znarl about the drupal installation, he was rather busy busy last weke, he'll say he'll make a plan to get it installed tomoorrow or the day after | 01:41 |
| highvoltage | i've played a bit with the spreadfirefox theme locally too | 01:41 |
| highvoltage | it's very suitable for edubuntu allready | 01:41 |
| pips1 | highvoltage: nice! | 01:41 |
| ogra | cool | 01:41 |
| flint_ | interesting... | 01:41 |
| highvoltage | although we'll have to make the colours work, janew was clear that she wanted us to keep the edubuntu colours currently in use. | 01:41 |
| highvoltage | that's about it :) any questions? | 01:42 |
| ogra | yup, thats our face to the world, we should keep the colortheme | 01:42 |
| pips1 | highvoltage: did you also check the (drupal) admin screens with the spreadfirefox theme? on some screens, I got some weird overlapping forms.. :-/ | 01:42 |
| flint_ | the orange and the yellow? | 01:42 |
| highvoltage | pips1: haven't noticed that yet | 01:43 |
| ogra | flint_, red orange yellow the main colors of our desktop | 01:43 |
| ogra | flint_, bright and friendly :) | 01:43 |
| flint_ | ogra, forgive i am not very well red... | 01:43 |
| flint_ | :^) | 01:43 |
| pips1 | I have quite a bit of spare time to work on the website in the next weeks... so ideally we get down to it sooner rather than later... | 01:43 |
| ogra | flint_, but a bit bordeaux, no ? :) | 01:44 |
| highvoltage | flint_: yes. it's nice colours, although odd for websites, but it presents a good challenge, and when we'll make it work we'll have something that's both good looking and unique | 01:44 |
| pips1 | for the record, I'll be on a holiday when edubuntu is released... | 01:44 |
| flint_ | ogra, harsh, you could at least pun in German eh? | 01:44 |
| ogra | pips1, we'll drink on you :) | 01:44 |
| pips1 | holiday april 8th - 22th | 01:44 |
| highvoltage | pips1: that's great. we'll of course need to continue working on the site after it's launch | 01:44 |
| ogra | flint_, bordeaux comes from the hills of france not germany :) | 01:45 |
| pips1 | highvoltage: sure | 01:45 |
| flint_ | ogra, god, help me... :^) | 01:45 |
| ogra | thats it with artwork ? | 01:46 |
| flint_ | ogra, ah to be back in the hills of farce... :^) | 01:46 |
| ogra | anything else Management and/or Community related ? | 01:47 |
| flint_ | we could break 15 minutes early and create a newsworthy item. | 01:47 |
| ogra | yeah, since it doesnt look like there is any topic left, we can close :) | 01:48 |
| ogra | so thanks all, meeting adjouned :) | 01:48 |
| ogra | or so ... | 01:48 |
| highvoltage | thanks, ogra | 01:48 |
| pips1 | thanks | 01:48 |
| pips1 | cu in #edubuntu | 01:49 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | k | 01:49 |
| flint_ | excellent a new meeting record!!! bye all back to #edubuntu! | 01:49 |
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| heno | Hello all :) | 08:00 |
| TheMuso | Hey heno. | 08:00 |
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| heno | Hi TheMuso. Thanks for organising the aganda and stuff | 08:01 |
| heno | and generally holding the fort :) | 08:01 |
| dholbach | Hey! :) | 08:01 |
| heno | dholbach: ! how was your weekend ? ;) | 08:01 |
| dholbach | Thanks heno - had a nice Saturday, with wandering through Berlin and a loooong party in the evening - Sunday just some bits of working and mostly recovering :) | 08:02 |
| dholbach | How were your weekend? | 08:02 |
| dholbach | weekends :) | 08:02 |
| heno | nice thanks, had the place to myself. Did some good design work on TheOpenCD | 08:03 |
| heno | (I was reffering to your missed meeting though) | 08:03 |
| dholbach | Nice. | 08:03 |
| dholbach | Yeah, I thought so. :-) | 08:03 |
| heno | It's good to make those contacts though | 08:03 |
| dholbach | well, I tried to gather up with the KDE a11y and usability folks (who met in Berlin) | 08:04 |
| TheMuso | Nice. | 08:04 |
| heno | We've just been in touch with some KDE access people | 08:04 |
| heno | all good stuff | 08:04 |
| dholbach | after I got there, I tried all the bells and doors, but they didn't hear me on the 4th floor (or wherever they were) | 08:04 |
| TheMuso | I have also been talking on and off to Garry in the #kde-accessibility channel recently. He has been following what we are doing with great interest. | 08:04 |
| dholbach | so I took my laptop the Ubuntu CDs and everything else to a nice walk through Berlin. .-) | 08:04 |
| dholbach | But I'll meet with Ellen soon to catch up with. | 08:05 |
| TheMuso | he has said on several occasions that KDE doesn't yet have the same as what GNOME has to offer in terms of accessibility. | 08:05 |
| Riddell | heno: just remembered, I've not replied to your e-mail | 08:05 |
| dholbach | hey Riddell | 08:05 |
| heno | Riddell: np. What do you think? | 08:05 |
| Riddell | heno: are you talking about a separate CD or an option on the live or install CD at boot time? | 08:06 |
| heno | wil we get some Kubuntu AT love this release? :) | 08:06 |
| Riddell | "AT"? | 08:06 |
| dholbach | accessibility technology? | 08:06 |
| heno | Assistive Technology | 08:06 |
| dholbach | oh well | 08:06 |
| dholbach | good enough for a non-native speaker ;) | 08:06 |
| heno | I ws thinking as boot feature. Do you ship Kmag? | 08:07 |
| Riddell | kdeaccessibility is in universe | 08:07 |
| heno | ah, ok | 08:07 |
| Riddell | but that can be fixed of course | 08:08 |
| dholbach | :-D | 08:08 |
| TheMuso | heno: We could still offer a derivative. | 08:08 |
| TheMuso | Unless kdeaccessibility is promoted in the meantime. | 08:08 |
| heno | yep | 08:08 |
| heno | ok, so where are we with the current game plan? | 08:08 |
| TheMuso | Riddell: The kubuntu live CD uses the same overall infrastructure as the Ubuntu one right? | 08:08 |
| TheMuso | Have you looked at the agenda? | 08:09 |
| TheMuso | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda | 08:09 |
| heno | yep, point 1 | 08:09 |
| heno | access profiles | 08:09 |
| Riddell | TheMuso: yes | 08:09 |
| heno | well done on getting those sorted, thanks :) | 08:09 |
| heno | about the magnification, 8x sounds huge | 08:10 |
| heno | but I'm no expert on that | 08:10 |
| TheMuso | Well it actually wouldn't be too difficult to set up kubuntu profiles for accessibility from the same casper script if there was a way to identify what CD we are using, and once I knew how to modify/set KDE configuration files. | 08:10 |
| heno | don't you end up scrolling sideways alot? | 08:10 |
| TheMuso | I really wish others were here to give their opinion, as I haven't as yet received any email. | 08:11 |
| === TheMuso jumps to the ubuntu-a11y mailbox. | ||
| dholbach | yeah | 08:11 |
| TheMuso | No, nothing. | 08:11 |
| heno | So we just make a decision and go with it I think | 08:11 |
| TheMuso | Yeah. | 08:11 |
| heno | That small detail can be changed after feedback | 08:12 |
| dholbach | TheMuso: casper uses the packages on livecd file system - so from there it should be easy to judge wether we're in ubuntu or kubuntu land | 08:12 |
| heno | I would vote for 4x ... | 08:12 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: Very true. Check for kubuntu-desktop for example. | 08:12 |
| dholbach | TheMuso: or we can test for binaries we need | 08:12 |
| TheMuso | heno: Ok will make a note of it. | 08:12 |
| heno | The placement worries me more though. It seems to assume a certain screen rez | 08:12 |
| dholbach | i have unfortunately not much of an opinion on the default settings | 08:12 |
| TheMuso | I don't know how else we can work that | 08:13 |
| heno | how would that work on a smaller screen? | 08:13 |
| TheMuso | As the default placement IMO is crazy. | 08:13 |
| heno | I guess you would still get something | 08:13 |
| heno | agreed | 08:13 |
| TheMuso | Yeah. | 08:13 |
| dholbach | we could ask on the gnome a11y list | 08:13 |
| heno | A larger screen should be no problem, just less optimal | 08:13 |
| heno | dholbach: good idea | 08:13 |
| dholbach | although i'm not entirely convinced they ship the best they can think of as a default already | 08:14 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: Yeah, as we will be patching these gconf settings into the package anyway. | 08:14 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: Neither do I. | 08:14 |
| heno | I still need to thank them all for the detailed replies | 08:14 |
| dholbach | TheMuso: yeah, if we have better defaults no need to change casper - we can change that in the packages directly | 08:14 |
| dholbach | heno: yeah, that was great | 08:14 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: Yeah. The only thing the script for casper should do is turn on or off the ke settings that make things available or not when GNOME starts. | 08:15 |
| heno | OK, so we'll just pick the position setting in your mail and call that settled ? | 08:15 |
| TheMuso | Yep. We still have time to test so we can hopefully get feedback. | 08:15 |
| dholbach | yes | 08:15 |
| heno | ok, point 2? | 08:15 |
| heno | I guess that's an upstream bug really | 08:16 |
| TheMuso | hmmm | 08:16 |
| dholbach | *nod* | 08:16 |
| heno | they need to get used to the idea of fixing that | 08:16 |
| dholbach | at least we could ask for pointers | 08:16 |
| dholbach | :))) | 08:16 |
| TheMuso | No pun intended right? :) | 08:16 |
| heno | I still havent 100% understood the problem | 08:16 |
| TheMuso | Me neither. | 08:16 |
| TheMuso | Something to do with gok getting more direct hardware access to the mouse. | 08:17 |
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| heno | Gok just needs more testing and exposure generally which we will hopefully provide | 08:17 |
| TheMuso | Yeah. | 08:17 |
| heno | Has anyone else experienced my panel crashing bug? | 08:18 |
| heno | I've asked other random people to test on dapper | 08:18 |
| TheMuso | heno: I will be totally honest and say that I haven't played with GOK AT ALL> | 08:18 |
| TheMuso | LATELY | 08:18 |
| heno | but so far it works for everyone else | 08:18 |
| dholbach | i guess that was the at-spi / gail changes that made it work again | 08:19 |
| heno | it's a quick test: just install and start somethinmg from the gnome panel while gok is running | 08:19 |
| TheMuso | Righto. | 08:19 |
| heno | if nothing crashes you're ok | 08:19 |
| === TheMuso flicks over to oher box to try. | ||
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| heno | I've not tested it today after the latest updates | 08:20 |
| heno | anyway, it doesn't look like a showstopper for us | 08:20 |
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| dholbach | i seem safe | 08:21 |
| heno | works for most and doesn't get in anyones way | 08:21 |
| TheMuso | ok | 08:21 |
| TheMuso | Nice to see GNOME is killing its processes properly now. :) | 08:22 |
| sorush20 | so what are you guys trying to make more accessible? | 08:23 |
| heno | So I guess the conclusion on GOK is that it works acceptibly now | 08:23 |
| dholbach | sorush20: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda is our agenda | 08:23 |
| TheMuso | So if it is just a matter of running something from the panel while GOK is running, there seems to be no problem. I haven't updated today either. | 08:23 |
| dholbach | sorush20: we're discussing point 2 atm | 08:24 |
| heno | and if we have time, enenergy and brains to make it better for dapper we will | 08:24 |
| heno | but it can go in as it is | 08:24 |
| TheMuso | Yeah. | 08:24 |
| heno | Cool. I might be I have funky hardware or that a reinstall would fix it | 08:25 |
| heno | I'll try it on the Live CD too when it turns up there | 08:25 |
| heno | Great! point 3? | 08:25 |
| heno | Is there somewhere we can see the packages currently on the live cd? | 08:26 |
| heno | germinate something or other? | 08:26 |
| TheMuso | heno: Yes there is. Give me a sec. | 08:26 |
| ogra | heno, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/live | 08:26 |
| ogra | and http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/desktop | 08:27 |
| heno | ogra: thanks. and hello :) | 08:27 |
| TheMuso | Thanks ogra. | 08:27 |
| ogra | (live contains desktop) | 08:27 |
| heno | ogra: are you absorbing all these cool new AT features into Edubuntu? | 08:27 |
| ogra | not yet | 08:28 |
| ogra | i have massive space probs | 08:28 |
| TheMuso | So it seems that the packages we need are not there yet. | 08:28 |
| dholbach | we really need to know how much all these packages will take | 08:28 |
| heno | ah, ok | 08:28 |
| ogra | (cat include the example content) | 08:28 |
| TheMuso | I found the same when checking one of the dalies the other day. | 08:28 |
| heno | dholbach: yeah, I'm still in the dark on that | 08:28 |
| ogra | *cant | 08:28 |
| heno | ogra: hm, shame | 08:29 |
| ogra | yup | 08:29 |
| dholbach | ogra: it's just 8,7M :) | 08:29 |
| heno | ogra: are you carrying the winfoss? | 08:29 |
| heno | that will shrink this time | 08:29 |
| ogra | dholbach, i dont even have 1M free | 08:29 |
| ogra | heno, nope | 08:29 |
| ogra | only edubuntu | 08:29 |
| dholbach | ogra: throw away openoffice and add the accessibility stuff | 08:29 |
| heno | I'm making some unilateral cuts :) | 08:30 |
| ogra | and as long as we ship kdeedu we wont have space | 08:30 |
| heno | makes sense | 08:30 |
| ogra | dholbach, nope, i'll replace the kde stuff in dapper+1 | 08:30 |
| heno | replace OOo with koffice? | 08:30 |
| sorush20 | I can't even start gok | 08:30 |
| heno | sorush20: have you installed at-spi and restarted the X session? | 08:31 |
| heno | sorush20: try starting it from the command line | 08:31 |
| heno | see if you get any errors there | 08:31 |
| sorush20 | heno: shouldn't that be part of the dependency that needes to be installed.. I get the error that can't find registery.. | 08:32 |
| heno | sorush20: it should yes | 08:32 |
| dholbach | sorush20: could you file a bug about that and include which version of ubuntu you use? | 08:32 |
| sorush20 | its running now thanks.. but at-spi sould be installed with it.. | 08:32 |
| sorush20 | oka | 08:33 |
| dholbach | thanks | 08:33 |
| heno | brb | 08:33 |
| TheMuso | I will see if I can chace up the total size of packages needing to be installed. | 08:33 |
| dholbach | that'd make it easier to start a disciussion | 08:33 |
| sorush20 | what packages are you guys talking about ... and will there be a gui fo me to just check box the assistive stuff or will there be a blue screen? | 08:34 |
| TheMuso | Good old speakup. Managed to cause a bit of a kernel oops of some sort when trying to press several keys at once or close to each other. | 08:35 |
| TheMuso | An now on another machine while I wait for that box to reboot. :) | 08:35 |
| sorush20 | brrb | 08:36 |
| heno | sorush20: a black screen actually: http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/screenshots/dapper/flight4/gfxboot-big.png | 08:36 |
| heno | and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=AT-boot-menu.png | 08:37 |
| sorush20 | heno: so it hasn't changed.. that is bad... there should be something similar to xp installation where you can select extra stuff like a gui.. | 08:37 |
| heno | sorush20: actually our solution is better than the XP one | 08:38 |
| heno | youb select this technology at the very first screen and off you go | 08:39 |
| dholbach | it does the right thing for you | 08:39 |
| heno | I've seen some shots of the vista installer though and that's looking strong on this | 08:40 |
| heno | so they're catching up :) | 08:40 |
| heno | dholbach: the Live boot | 08:40 |
| TheMuso | heno: It won't be accessible AFAIK. | 08:40 |
| sorush20 | I guess you have a point.. although I think you would agree that it would be better if there were some icons.. like a disabled wheel chair.. stuff. like that to make it more visually enhanced.. | 08:40 |
| heno | I tried a live CD a few days ago, but I got no boiot at all then | 08:40 |
| TheMuso | No good for us people with vision impairements. | 08:40 |
| TheMuso | heno: I don't even think my casper stuff is on the live CD yet. | 08:41 |
| heno | Ah, the wheelchair picture is therrible! :) | 08:41 |
| TheMuso | Mithrandir only merged it a couple of days ago | 08:41 |
| sorush20 | TheMuso: you have a big point there.. | 08:41 |
| heno | I need to email the icon designer and make sure we don't get that :) | 08:41 |
| Mithrandir | TheMuso: it could be on tomorrows if you want. | 08:41 |
| heno | Mithrandir: yes please :) | 08:42 |
| TheMuso | Mithrandir: No point in doing so until we have the necessary packages. | 08:42 |
| TheMuso | on the live CD. | 08:42 |
| TheMuso | Which is the point we are still discussing. | 08:42 |
| TheMuso | I am trying to work out here just how much space they would take up, so bare with me guys | 08:42 |
| heno | so what is the right process for that? | 08:43 |
| heno | thanks | 08:43 |
| TheMuso | We need to finalize what speech approach we are going to take, and if we have to use flite due to space constraints, there is no choice but to use speech-dispatcher. Yeah the driver is young, but we have no choice. | 08:43 |
| heno | sorush20: here is a description of how it will work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/Accessibility | 08:44 |
| heno | the irony is that it doesn't seem to take that much less space | 08:45 |
| sorush20 | how are you guys going to do documentation for blind people? | 08:45 |
| heno | I'm hoping to push the new slimmer WinFOSS package out Sunday-ish, which should clear up a ton of space | 08:45 |
| sorush20 | talking about the interface between brail writer and linux? | 08:45 |
| Riddell | heno: what will (or not) be in that? | 08:45 |
| heno | Then the plan is to just grab it again ;) | 08:46 |
| heno | Riddell: I'll remove OpenOffice and see if people cry | 08:46 |
| Riddell | that should free some space :) | 08:46 |
| heno | the mailing lists seemed to agree on that | 08:46 |
| heno | but I'll add some stuff | 08:47 |
| Riddell | heno: will you do the same for the kubuntu winfoss? | 08:47 |
| heno | of course some wanten no winfoss at all | 08:47 |
| TheMuso | Ok. The debs themselves are about 10.6MB. When installed, 40.5MB will be used on disk. | 08:47 |
| heno | Riddell: didn't we already skip OO on kubuntu? | 08:47 |
| TheMuso | Give or take a few meg. | 08:47 |
| heno | TheMuso: that's not too bad | 08:48 |
| Riddell | heno: don't think so, can't actually remember now | 08:48 |
| heno | Riddell: btw, I have anew layout now which IMHO is look sweet :) | 08:48 |
| heno | http://www.theopencd.org/LayoutIdeas | 08:48 |
| heno | (sorry OT) | 08:48 |
| TheMuso | heno: Thats not entirely accurate, as I am trying to work this out on a dapper chroot atm. That is with flite though. | 08:48 |
| TheMuso | But as close as I can get it. | 08:49 |
| heno | ah, ok | 08:49 |
| heno | I'd be very interested to see Festival too | 08:49 |
| TheMuso | Hang on. | 08:49 |
| TheMuso | Festival on its own is about 16.1MB. | 08:50 |
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| heno | So we might land on about 22 as the Sun-gnome guys suggested | 08:52 |
| dholbach | which packages? installed size? | 08:52 |
| heno | that would be ok | 08:52 |
| heno | deb size I guess | 08:52 |
| TheMuso | We are concerned with the installed size as debs aren't used on the Live CD. | 08:52 |
| heno | True, but I guess they give an idea of how well it compresses | 08:53 |
| TheMuso | Yeah thats true. | 08:53 |
| TheMuso | SHould have a deacent figure for you in a sec for gnome-speech with festival. | 08:54 |
| heno | cool | 08:54 |
| heno | enrico: did you ever get openoffice or firefox to talk to you in Italian? | 08:55 |
| heno | I was reading about your efforts on planet debian I think | 08:55 |
| TheMuso | There is only 3MB difference between flite and festival it seems. | 08:55 |
| dholbach | hrm | 08:56 |
| heno | right, so the choice seems obvious. perhaps flite is bundled with too much stuff? | 08:56 |
| TheMuso | Festival packages compress down to about 5948KB from 16MB or so. | 08:56 |
| TheMuso | I don't know. | 08:57 |
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| TheMuso | Festival would actually be a safer route, as it is an already tested gnome-speech setup | 08:57 |
| heno | I think we should lobby for Festival then | 08:57 |
| heno | yep | 08:57 |
| TheMuso | Mind you that doesn't include any other voices for other languages. | 08:57 |
| enrico | heno: haven't done that try yet | 08:57 |
| heno | how big is GOK by comparison? | 08:58 |
| enrico | heno: but I should be about to get a small working plan approved (and paid) | 08:58 |
| TheMuso | heno: Well in that case, we also need to get libgnome-speech3, gnopernicus, libatspi1.0-0, at-spi and gok onto the CD. | 08:58 |
| heno | enrico: really, to work on accessibility stuff? cool! | 08:58 |
| dholbach | what about gnome-mag? | 08:58 |
| TheMuso | and gnome-mag | 08:58 |
| === TheMuso would love to be paid for working on accessibility. :) | ||
| TheMuso | BUt that will come in time. :) | 08:59 |
| heno | what do you mean 'in that case'? Festival route? | 08:59 |
| dholbach | how much would that weigh in? | 08:59 |
| heno | TheMuso: definately! you are getting a proven track record as an expert :) | 09:00 |
| TheMuso | heno: Gnome-speech with festival has been used dand tested extensively. It is a proven speech setup. | 09:00 |
| enrico | heno: nothing signed yet, fingers crossed, lots of final work to do in the next few days | 09:00 |
| enrico | TheMuso: we're talking not many hours so far, unfortunately. But the good thing is that we are talking for a small pilot project to see how we get alng | 09:01 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: about 37.9MB. It was bigger before for flite due to other gnome libraries having to be installed. | 09:01 |
| TheMuso | So flite would probably be 34 or so. | 09:01 |
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| heno | TheMuso: is that the total with gok and everything? | 09:01 |
| dholbach | + the speech-dispatcher dependencies | 09:02 |
| TheMuso | heno: Yes. | 09:02 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: That is not including speech-dispatcher or flite. | 09:02 |
| heno | which we don't need with Festival | 09:02 |
| dholbach | dotconf and speech-tool | 09:02 |
| dholbach | dotconf and speech-tools | 09:02 |
| TheMuso | They only get included with flite. | 09:02 |
| dholbach | phew | 09:02 |
| dholbach | yeah | 09:03 |
| heno | TheMuso: OK, cool. It's good to have an approximate number number | 09:03 |
| TheMuso | So as much as flite is smaller, I reckon we push for festival. | 09:03 |
| TheMuso | festival is in main anyway. | 09:03 |
| heno | I'll email the people who decide and ask nicely | 09:03 |
| TheMuso | But for future relesaes, if the speech-dispatcher driver gets better, I would like to pursue that route for speech. | 09:04 |
| TheMuso | heno: Thanks. | 09:04 |
| heno | And Festival sounds soooo much better IMO | 09:04 |
| TheMuso | Once we have the packages on the CD, we can then get the casper stuff done and start testing. | 09:04 |
| TheMuso | Festival in the future allows for further language expansion should we need it. | 09:05 |
| heno | TheMuso, dholbach: could one of you end me a list of the package names | 09:05 |
| heno | ? for my email | 09:05 |
| TheMuso | I have your address. Sending now. | 09:05 |
| heno | thanks | 09:06 |
| enrico | TheMuso: note that festival might not be the synthesis of choice for some languages. For example, while festival is a decent synthesis for Italian, there's a proprietary synthesis called 'Eloquence', for Linux, which is light years better | 09:06 |
| TheMuso | Sent. | 09:08 |
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| sorush20 | is the meeting finished.? | 09:08 |
| TheMuso | enrico: I know, but that is proprietary. We can't ship that. | 09:08 |
| TheMuso | sorush20: We still have another point to discuss. | 09:08 |
| enrico | TheMuso: sure | 09:09 |
| heno | got it thanks | 09:09 |
| heno | So point 4: the todo list needs cleaning up | 09:09 |
| heno | Which is good news | 09:09 |
| enrico | TheMuso: I just wanted to point out that I wish festival shouldn't be too hardcoded into things | 09:09 |
| dholbach | yeah :-)))) | 09:10 |
| heno | perhaps we should split it into a dapper and a deferred section | 09:10 |
| TheMuso | enrico: It isn't. However I don't see how that synth would work. Can you point me to some info about it? | 09:10 |
| TheMuso | heno: SOunds good. | 09:10 |
| heno | enrico: we should even consider making a derivative at some point where some priprietary stuff could in theory go in | 09:11 |
| TheMuso | heno: Or at least packages to help one install proprietary stuff. | 09:11 |
| heno | right | 09:11 |
| TheMuso | As there are a few synths that gnome-speech supports that are proprietary, and I have access to them, i.e bought copies for testing. | 09:11 |
| TheMuso | And on my laptop, I use one of them on a daily basis | 09:12 |
| heno | One point on the todo list that we might want to bring up is documentation | 09:12 |
| TheMuso | I am not good at docs. :) | 09:13 |
| heno | that was doing really well but seems to have stalled | 09:13 |
| enrico | TheMuso: should be around http://www.speechworks.com/demos/eti.cfm but I can't get to it now | 09:13 |
| TheMuso | I think Jason is busy with life stuff. | 09:13 |
| heno | I think Jaso got really busy | 09:13 |
| enrico | TheMuso: more info will come when I'll actually lay my hands on it | 09:13 |
| enrico | heno: for Italian, that'd be something I'd do | 09:13 |
| enrico | heno: (I mean, the derivative) | 09:13 |
| TheMuso | I get a download question. Won't let me view it as it should. | 09:14 |
| heno | enrico: cool | 09:14 |
| enrico | TheMuso: :( I get a white page and a 1x1 pixel popup | 09:14 |
| heno | I've spoken with mdke on the doc team and they arehappy to include it if we have something ready | 09:15 |
| TheMuso | enrico: Worked out why, and I know eactly the synth you are talking about, as it is used in JAWS for Windows, and many mobile applications. | 09:15 |
| heno | it would go in yelp | 09:15 |
| dholbach | brb | 09:15 |
| TheMuso | Eloquence is a well known synth in the blind community. | 09:15 |
| TheMuso | THey changed name to Nuance COmmunications. | 09:16 |
| TheMuso | Or something like that. | 09:16 |
| enrico | TheMuso: there'd even be a 'Loquendo' for Italian which should be even better, but it has no Linux binaries as I know of. Although I could have extreme plans of running it as a TCP service in a Window virtual machine inside a vmware player and making it speak from Linux :) | 09:16 |
| enrico | (kind of like my old dosgate hack) | 09:16 |
| TheMuso | Go to www.nuance.com for more info. | 09:17 |
| enrico | But please, don't make me digress on proprietary software. That's a stinky bit that shouldn't be particularly supported by this group. | 09:17 |
| TheMuso | I know. | 09:18 |
| TheMuso | I am all for free software, but proprietary synths are so much better. | 09:18 |
| TheMuso | But that is another story. | 09:18 |
| heno | Right, so we are at the end of the agenda I think | 09:19 |
| heno | any other items? | 09:19 |
| TheMuso | Not from me atm. | 09:19 |
| TheMuso | dholbach: I should have a patch for gnopernicus with gconf settings later today. | 09:20 |
| === enrico should add a small point | ||
| enrico | about self | 09:20 |
| dholbach | TheMuso: that'd be great | 09:20 |
| enrico | If all goes well I'm about to sign a small contract (100 hours for 2006) with a local high-tech center for the blind | 09:20 |
| dholbach | TheMuso: we'll have a status update meeting at 2:00 utc, so i'll be awake for quite a while | 09:20 |
| TheMuso | Ok. | 09:21 |
| TheMuso | It shouldn't take all that long. | 09:21 |
| enrico | they have skilled people (but not on Linux) and a big archive of accessibility hardware | 09:21 |
| TheMuso | Then I can remove those changes from the casper script and push them through. | 09:21 |
| enrico | the idea is to try to start looking at accessibility of free software, and atm that means Ubuntu | 09:21 |
| TheMuso | Yeah. | 09:21 |
| heno | enrico: cool. Look forward to working with you on that :) | 09:22 |
| enrico | plans go along the line of "first get to do it. Then document it. Then improve it." | 09:22 |
| heno | sounds like a good plan | 09:22 |
| enrico | I look forward to working with you all on that | 09:22 |
| enrico | and of course I hope the project goes well and it can be continued | 09:22 |
| dholbach | cool :) | 09:22 |
| enrico | documentation will be mainly in Italian, or centered at having an Italian speaking desktop | 09:23 |
| TheMuso | It would be nice to get some of the team at least at the next conference. | 09:23 |
| enrico | I could do translation of it, though | 09:23 |
| heno | TheMuso: dholbach and I will certainly be there | 09:24 |
| === TheMuso is going to try and get sponsored to get there. | ||
| dholbach | wooo! :) | 09:24 |
| enrico | Ubuntu confs are fun | 09:24 |
| TheMuso | Or seek other funding to help. | 09:24 |
| heno | TheMuso: cool! We'll support you :) | 09:25 |
| TheMuso | Cool, thanks guys. Even if sponsorship doesn't happen, there are other sources of funding I can certainly look at, which may help me get there anyway. | 09:25 |
| heno | OK, I will go write some emails. Thanks guys. Good meeting! | 09:27 |
| enrico | heno: thanks for telling me of the meeting. I was in need of a pretext to tell everyone what I should going to be up to :) | 09:27 |
| heno | heh | 09:27 |
| TheMuso | heno: Thanks again. | 09:27 |
| dholbach | thanks guys for all the good work you did :) | 09:28 |
| TheMuso | No problem. | 09:29 |
| heno | yep, we've got a good little core team going now :) | 09:29 |
| Riddell | who's the best person to talk to about live cd accessibility profile for kubuntu? | 09:29 |
| heno | depends on what aspect, probably TheMuso or Mithrandir or Kamion | 09:30 |
| heno | or yourself :) | 09:30 |
| Riddell | just need to find out how it's done so we can do the equivalent thing | 09:30 |
| TheMuso | Riddell: FOr the GNOME accessibility settings, we are directly setting stuff in gconf. | 09:31 |
| dholbach | Riddell: one part of it is in casper's casper-bottom/30accessibility | 09:31 |
| TheMuso | The other part will be in the packages we ship on the CD. | 09:33 |
| TheMuso | i.e gnopernicus will have the settings we want patched into it. | 09:33 |
| TheMuso | So what you see in the casper script is going to change quite a lot in the next day or so. | 09:34 |
| Riddell | where can I find that script? | 09:35 |
| TheMuso | Ok guys, I'm outa here. Ping me in #ubuntu-accessibility or query me if you need anything. | 09:36 |
| TheMuso | If you are using bzr, pull a branch from Mithrandir's casper trunk. | 09:36 |
| Riddell | TheMuso: thanks | 09:36 |
| TheMuso | I can get the address for you if you like. | 09:36 |
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