[07:47] <manils> hello all
[01:00] <ogra> hey all
[01:01] <highvoltage> hey
[01:02] <ogra> where is flint ?
[01:02] <ogra> ah
[01:02] <ogra> :)
[01:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[01:02] <pips1> hi
[01:02] <ogra> so can we start ? 
[01:02] <flint_> ogra, I want to get one of those remote starters to pre warm ubuntu-meeting so it is warm when we get here!
[01:02] <flint_> :^)
[01:03] <ogra> tech update is rather small today
[01:03] <flint_> ogra, lol exce..ent
[01:03] <ogra> flint_, heh
[01:03] <pips1> is JaneW coming?
[01:03] <ogra> the CD exploded some days ago when the ubuntu example-content package was added, i dont think we can ship it :/
[01:04] <ogra> nope, JaneW has a bank holiday
[01:04] <ogra> elections in southafrica
[01:04] <pips1> ah
[01:04] <highvoltage> what's the example-content package?
[01:04] <pips1> ogra: you mean, we won't be able to ship the example-content on the edubuntu cds?
[01:04] <ogra> its a 7Mb package and we simply dont have this much ... i'm not even sure we have 1MB on ppc amd64
[01:04] <flint_> small general good news, crsoosver 5.0.1 and ms office on top work on the badger version of edubuntu real well...
[01:05] <ogra> highvoltage, example content for all apps we ship to play around with
[01:05] <highvoltage> ogra: i see. does that include example content for ktouch? that seems to be in high demand.
[01:06] <ogra> its an awesome idea ... but as long as we ship kdeedu we wont have the space
[01:06] <ogra> highvoltage, nope 
[01:06] <ogra> its ubuntu specific, not edubuntu 
[01:06] <ogra> there are some openoffice docs, some svg and bitmaps etc ...
[01:07] <ogra> summing up to a 7MB package
[01:07] <ogra> i'd really appreciate if someone could start research for replacements of kdeedu for dapper+1 
[01:08] <ogra> that would gain us ~100Mb (guessed) 
[01:08] <highvoltage> ogra: i suppose it's a lot of work to do a dvd version, hey?
[01:08] <highvoltage> really? wow! i didn't realise it was *that* much
[01:08] <pips1> ogra: how do the space requirements add up in all? I mean, how much space is ubuntu taking in comparison to edubuntu-specific stuff?
[01:08] <ogra> highvoltage, not really, but we decided we want to be available in areas weher no DVD players are available
[01:09] <ogra> highvoltage, even if its 50, it would be wonderful ...
[01:09] <ogra> pips1, we take more than 70MB more and i already disabled what i could from ubuntu 
[01:10] <flint_> highvoltage, it is not just the dvd player, it is the bandwidth necessary to deliver a 4.8Gb iso eh
[01:10] <ogra> note that amd64 with the same set of software wouldnt even build, we dont have tuxpaint on amd64 ...
[01:11] <ogra> highvoltage, we still have the DVD that contains all of main...
[01:11] <ogra> but it wont be our main media for now 
[01:11] <pips1> ogra: you are saying that you need to get rid of 70 MB because it exceeds the limit for a cd currently, right?
[01:11] <ogra> i guess at some point where we ship something that enables you to manage the whole school we'll have no choice ...
[01:11] <highvoltage> yep, i'm just in two worlds about kde-edu, it's a real nice, active project, just a pity we need to install so much in order to run it
[01:12] <flint_> highvoltage, keep in mind that 70 mb of cd is 10 percent...
[01:12] <ogra> pips1, i cann keep the CD in shape .... currently its fine, but we dont have any space left ...
[01:12] <ogra> which brings me to the next tech topic
[01:12] <highvoltage> dvd players seem to be vrey, very common already. perhaps by dapper+2 it would be much more plausible
[01:12] <ogra> we have a edubuntu-docs packag since last week 
[01:12] <ogra> i'm waiting for Kamion to push it through NEW
[01:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> highvoltage: but only in 'the first world'
[01:13] <flint_> ogra, got a url?
[01:13] <highvoltage> Kamping_Kaiser: and 3rd world
[01:13] <ogra> it contains a modified version of the two ooo docs highvoltage presented last time
[01:13] <ogra> flint_, once its through new: sudo apt-get install edubuntu-docs
[01:13] <highvoltage> ogra: that's in html now, right?
[01:13] <ogra> yup
[01:13] <ogra> i'll rework it 
[01:14] <flint_> ogra, this is excellent news!  bet he did not have a beautiful illustrator to charm like jonathan did...
[01:14] <ogra> but first i'm adding some basic docs for our ltsp ...
[01:14] <pips1> ogra: what's up with the feature freeze... did schooltool make it in time?
[01:14] <ogra> pips1, schooltool sits in debian and waits for a sync ...
[01:15] <ogra> the launchpad feature for syncing is still not ready, so we're all waiting for that
[01:15] <ogra> but it was requested and approved in time ...
[01:15] <ogra> so we'll get it, dont worry
[01:15] <flint_> ogra, shcooltool is important.  will the old version be included otherwise?
[01:15] <pips1> ogra: ic
[01:15] <ogra> flint_, that wont work 
[01:16] <highvoltage> flint_: you just won't let that go, will you ;)
[01:16] <flint_> ogra, gotcha.  does it have to do with its zope3-ishness?
[01:16] <ogra> yup
[01:16] <flint_> highvoltage, jonathan, the man the legend :^)
[01:16] <ogra> but dont worry, schooltool will be in
[01:17] <ogra> jane and i decided to make a separate spec for the network swap stuff, it can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FullyAutomaticSwapServer
[01:18] <highvoltage> ogra and jane++
[01:18] <ogra> i'm also thinking about a kiosk mode on ltsp level for dapper+1 
[01:19] <ogra> that should gain us a lot of points in public librarys and internet cafes :)
[01:19] <flint_> ogra, we marketing weasels always like a good demo kiosk.  
[01:19] <highvoltage> i think it will be a hit
[01:20] <ogra> flint_, you just had to add the --kiosk argument to the ltsp-build-client command that sets up ltsp and the rest will be done automatically :)
[01:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> i agree with highvoltage and otehrs ther
[01:20] <ogra> just boot the clients :)
[01:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> *others there
[01:21] <flint_> ogra, gotcha, which flight should i try this with?
[01:21] <ogra> ok, thats it with tech update ...
[01:21] <ogra> flint_, flightX of dapper+1 ;)
[01:21] <ogra> its a plan for next release ...
[01:22] <ogra> since the question for kiosk mode comes up quite often 
[01:22] <highvoltage> on the website, there's not too much of a change yet.
[01:22] <ogra> ok, any news in the doc area ? 
[01:22] <flint_> ogra, ollie, we should move on to annoying the edubuntu cooks
[01:22] <ogra> jelkner, ?
[01:22] <highvoltage> sorry, i just jumped in there
[01:23] <ogra> highvoltage, no, its fine ...
[01:23] <flint_> pips1, we gotta talk... email flint@flint.com schooltool in subject.
[01:23] <ogra> if you have something doc related ...
[01:23] <pips1> maybe it needs to be pointed out in the edubuntu doc that schooltool is an alpha release, cf. http://www.schooltool.org/products/schooltool-2006/releases/2006.0-alpha1
[01:23] <pips1> ?
[01:24] <flint_> ogra, kcole and jelkner just got back from pycon, and they may be a little "py-eyed" from the flight
[01:25] <ogra> pips1, i'm pretty sure thats not what we ship
[01:25] <jelkner> ogra: yes?
[01:25] <pips1> ogra: no?!
[01:25] <flint_> the news from pycon in dallas is that while they may be dead from the flight back to DC, Lore lives! take it away Jeff...
[01:26] <jelkner> we have the cookbook on the wiki
[01:26] <flint_> jelkner, now is the moment when you give the url jeffster.
[01:26] <jelkner> kevin and i will try to write a few chapters on installing and setting up edubuntu as soon as the release gets closer and things are likely to change less frequently
[01:27] <ogra> pips1, if that the one we ship, i agree, i'll have to check if that 2006, i think its thae last release of the last release we have :)
[01:27] <ogra> (and not 2006-alpha)
[01:28] <jelkner> a google search for "edubuntu cookbook" returns the launchpad page on top
[01:28] <jelkner> this is not what we would like
[01:28] <flint_> jelkner, the sooner you to get me a url the faster I can whine about details, pepper you with critisim and hector you for minor changes.
[01:28] <jelkner> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-cooks
[01:28] <ogra> jelkner, thats hard to influence 
[01:28] <jelkner> is the launchpad page
[01:29] <highvoltage> jelkner: many people would like to change their google rankings, you just can't control it :/
[01:29] <flint_> jelkner, thanks, i mean all that in the nicest way.:^)
[01:29] <jelkner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook
[01:29] <jelkner> is the wiki page
[01:29] <highvoltage> jelkner: where would you like it to point? perhaps we can make that page more googlable
[01:29] <jelkner> the wiki page
[01:30] <highvoltage> jelkner: perhaps you should link to that wiki page then from the launchpad page?
[01:30] <jelkner> which doesn't show up anywhere in the goolge search that i can see
[01:30] <ogra> jelkner, can you link the wikipage from launchpad somewhere ?
[01:30] <highvoltage> jelkner: it will also push up the ranks for the wiki page in google then
[01:30] <jelkner> we did
[01:30] <jelkner> but it is not at all easy to follow
[01:31] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-cooks doesnt have it ...
[01:31] <jelkner> kevin and i could not figure out how to make a link on the lauchpad page using something like an anchore tag
[01:31] <ogra> how ddi you get the other link in there
[01:31] <jelkner> it does, ogra, but you have to See https://launchpad.net/products/edubuntu.cookbook
[01:32] <highvoltage> jelkner: you can just type it like you did here in irc, you don't need tags and stuff
[01:32] <jelkner> yes, but it then looks hideous
[01:32] <jelkner> it is too long to fit in the box
[01:32] <jelkner> and the text runs over into the sidebar
[01:32] <ogra> jelkner, ah, just put a hint into the description or something ... 
[01:33] <jelkner> orgra: i'm not sure what you mean?
[01:33] <pips1> Quote from the launchpad page "For a look at the current cookbook, click on the link to the home page in the left menu."
[01:33] <ogra> "please click on the homepage link on the left to get to the wiki page"
[01:33] <jelkner> ahh
[01:33] <jelkner> will do
[01:33] <ogra> oh, ah 
[01:33] <ogra> i'm blind
[01:33] <ogra> sorry :)
[01:34] <pips1> ogra: I had to look twice myself :-)
[01:34] <ogra> heh :)
[01:34] <flint_> jelkner, looks pretty good to me...
[01:35] <jelkner> ok, that's about it for the cookbook
[01:35] <flint_> jelkner, nah, tell us about lore...
[01:35] <highvoltage> lore?
[01:36] <jelkner> lore is twisted's markup language
[01:36] <jelkner> they use it for all the docs on twitedmatrix.com
[01:36] <jelkner> i've been using it for stuff that i do on the open book project site
[01:36] <jelkner> moshe zadka wrote it
[01:37] <jelkner> george paci is maintaining it
[01:37] <flint_> highvoltage, jonathan, watch yourself here, there is a very high cliff approaching, great view but dangerous...
[01:37] <jelkner> and moshe and george are getting together at pycon to sprint on it
[01:37] <jelkner> (or rather, hopefully they did already ;-)
[01:37] <highvoltage> flint_: that's how i like it ;)
[01:37] <jelkner> ok, i gotta run
[01:37] <flint_> jelkner, jeff the reason you use it is because it is gods gift to indexing eh?
[01:37] <flint_> thanks jeff!!!
[01:38] <jelkner> bye
[01:38] <ogra> ciao jelkner 
[01:38] <ogra> and tzhanks 
[01:38] <ogra> hmpf
[01:38] <ogra> anything else doc related ?
[01:38] <highvoltage> tha'ts it for doc then?
[01:39] <flint_> ogra, imagine getting a meeting done early!  would jane be suprised?
[01:39] <ogra> heh, might be 
[01:39] <ogra> so, artwork anyone ? 
[01:39] <highvoltage> if there's any updates? sure.
[01:39] <flint_> ogra, artwork going once...artwork going twice....SOLD!
[01:40] <ogra> flint_, to whom ? 
[01:40] <highvoltage> ok, then may i jump in with a very quick website update now?
[01:40] <flint_> hehe
[01:40] <ogra> yeah
[01:40] <flint_> highvoltage, go for it!!
[01:40] <pips1> highvoltage: please
[01:41] <highvoltage> i just aked znarl about the drupal installation, he was rather busy busy last weke, he'll say he'll make a plan to get it installed tomoorrow or the day after
[01:41] <highvoltage> i've played a bit with the spreadfirefox theme locally too
[01:41] <highvoltage> it's very suitable for edubuntu allready
[01:41] <pips1> highvoltage: nice!
[01:41] <ogra> cool
[01:41] <flint_> interesting...
[01:41] <highvoltage> although we'll have to make the colours work, janew was clear that she wanted us to keep the edubuntu colours currently in use.
[01:42] <highvoltage> that's about it :) any questions?
[01:42] <ogra> yup, thats our face to the world, we should keep the colortheme
[01:42] <pips1> highvoltage: did you also check the (drupal) admin screens with the spreadfirefox theme? on some screens, I got some weird overlapping forms.. :-/
[01:42] <flint_> the orange and the yellow?
[01:43] <highvoltage> pips1: haven't noticed that yet
[01:43] <ogra> flint_, red orange yellow the main colors of our desktop 
[01:43] <ogra> flint_, bright and friendly :)
[01:43] <flint_> ogra, forgive i am not very well red...
[01:43] <flint_> :^)
[01:43] <pips1> I have quite a bit of spare time to work on the website in the next weeks... so ideally we get down to it sooner rather than later...
[01:44] <ogra> flint_, but a bit bordeaux, no ? :)
[01:44] <highvoltage> flint_: yes. it's nice colours, although odd for websites, but it presents a good challenge, and when we'll make it work we'll have something that's both good looking and unique
[01:44] <pips1> for the record, I'll be on a holiday when edubuntu is released...
[01:44] <flint_> ogra, harsh, you could at least pun in German eh?
[01:44] <ogra> pips1, we'll drink on you :)
[01:44] <pips1> holiday april 8th - 22th
[01:44] <highvoltage> pips1: that's great. we'll of course need to continue working on the site after it's launch
[01:45] <ogra> flint_, bordeaux comes from the hills of france not germany :)
[01:45] <pips1> highvoltage: sure
[01:45] <flint_> ogra, god, help me... :^)
[01:46] <ogra> thats it with artwork ? 
[01:46] <flint_> ogra, ah to be back in the hills of farce... :^)
[01:47] <ogra> anything else Management and/or Community related ?
[01:47] <flint_> we could break 15 minutes early and create a newsworthy item.
[01:48] <ogra> yeah, since it doesnt look like there is any topic left, we can close :)
[01:48] <ogra> so thanks all, meeting adjouned :)
[01:48] <ogra> or so ...
[01:48] <highvoltage> thanks, ogra
[01:48] <pips1> thanks
[01:49] <pips1> cu in #edubuntu
[01:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> k
[01:49] <flint_> excellent a new meeting record!!! bye all back to #edubuntu! 
[08:00] <heno> Hello all :)
[08:00] <TheMuso> Hey heno.
[08:01] <heno> Hi TheMuso. Thanks for organising the aganda and stuff
[08:01] <heno> and generally holding the fort :)
[08:01] <dholbach> Hey! :)
[08:01] <heno> dholbach: ! how was your weekend ? ;)
[08:02] <dholbach> Thanks heno - had a nice Saturday, with wandering through Berlin and a loooong party in the evening - Sunday just some bits of working and mostly recovering :)
[08:02] <dholbach> How were your weekend?
[08:02] <dholbach> weekends :)
[08:03] <heno> nice thanks, had the place to myself. Did some good design work on TheOpenCD
[08:03] <heno> (I was reffering to your missed meeting though)
[08:03] <dholbach> Nice.
[08:03] <dholbach> Yeah, I thought so. :-)
[08:03] <heno> It's good to make those contacts though
[08:04] <dholbach> well, I tried to gather up with the KDE a11y and usability folks (who met in Berlin)
[08:04] <TheMuso> Nice.
[08:04] <heno> We've just been in touch with some KDE access people
[08:04] <heno> all good stuff
[08:04] <dholbach> after I got there, I tried all the bells and doors, but they didn't hear me on the 4th floor (or wherever they were)
[08:04] <TheMuso> I have also been talking on and off to Garry in the #kde-accessibility channel recently. He has been following what we are doing with great interest.
[08:04] <dholbach> so I took my laptop the Ubuntu CDs and everything else to a nice walk through Berlin. .-)
[08:05] <dholbach> But I'll meet with Ellen soon to catch up with.
[08:05] <TheMuso> he has said on several occasions that KDE doesn't yet have the same as what GNOME has to offer in terms of accessibility.
[08:05] <Riddell> heno: just remembered, I've not replied to your e-mail
[08:05] <dholbach> hey Riddell
[08:05] <heno> Riddell: np. What do you think?
[08:06] <Riddell> heno: are you talking about a separate CD or an option on the live or install CD at boot time?
[08:06] <heno> wil we get some Kubuntu AT love this release? :)
[08:06] <Riddell> "AT"?
[08:06] <dholbach> accessibility technology?
[08:06] <heno> Assistive Technology
[08:06] <dholbach> oh well
[08:06] <dholbach> good enough for a non-native speaker ;)
[08:07] <heno> I ws thinking as boot feature. Do you ship Kmag?
[08:07] <Riddell> kdeaccessibility is in universe
[08:07] <heno> ah, ok
[08:08] <Riddell> but that can be fixed of course
[08:08] <dholbach> :-D
[08:08] <TheMuso> heno: We could still offer a derivative.
[08:08] <TheMuso> Unless kdeaccessibility is promoted in the meantime.
[08:08] <heno> yep
[08:08] <heno> ok, so where are we with the current game plan?
[08:08] <TheMuso> Riddell: The kubuntu live CD uses the same overall infrastructure as the Ubuntu one right?
[08:09] <TheMuso> Have you looked at the agenda?
[08:09] <TheMuso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
[08:09] <heno> yep, point 1
[08:09] <heno> access profiles
[08:09] <Riddell> TheMuso: yes
[08:09] <heno> well done on getting those sorted, thanks :)
[08:10] <heno> about the magnification, 8x sounds huge
[08:10] <heno> but I'm no expert on that
[08:10] <TheMuso> Well it actually wouldn't be too difficult to set up kubuntu profiles for accessibility from the same casper script if there was a way to identify what CD we are using, and once I knew how to modify/set KDE configuration files.
[08:10] <heno> don't you end up scrolling sideways alot?
[08:11] <TheMuso> I really wish others were here to give their opinion, as I haven't as yet received any email.
[08:11] <dholbach> yeah
[08:11] <TheMuso> No, nothing.
[08:11] <heno> So we just make a decision and go with it I think
[08:11] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:12] <heno> That small detail can be changed after feedback
[08:12] <dholbach> TheMuso: casper uses the packages on livecd file system - so from there it should be easy to judge wether we're in ubuntu or kubuntu land
[08:12] <heno> I would vote for 4x ...
[08:12] <TheMuso> dholbach: Very true. Check for kubuntu-desktop for example.
[08:12] <dholbach> TheMuso: or we can test for binaries we need
[08:12] <TheMuso> heno: Ok will make a note of it.
[08:12] <heno> The placement worries me more though. It seems to assume a certain screen rez
[08:12] <dholbach> i have unfortunately not much of an opinion on the default settings
[08:13] <TheMuso> I don't know how else we can work that
[08:13] <heno> how would that work on a smaller screen?
[08:13] <TheMuso> As the default placement IMO is crazy.
[08:13] <heno> I guess you would still get something
[08:13] <heno> agreed
[08:13] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:13] <dholbach> we could ask on the gnome a11y list
[08:13] <heno> A larger screen should be no problem, just less optimal
[08:13] <heno> dholbach: good idea
[08:14] <dholbach> although i'm not entirely convinced they ship the best they can think of as a default already
[08:14] <TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah, as we will be patching these gconf settings into the package anyway.
[08:14] <TheMuso> dholbach: Neither do I.
[08:14] <heno> I still need to thank them all for the detailed replies
[08:14] <dholbach> TheMuso: yeah, if we have better defaults no need to change casper - we can change that in the packages directly
[08:14] <dholbach> heno: yeah, that was great
[08:15] <TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah. The only thing the script for casper should do is turn on or off the ke settings that make things available or not when GNOME starts.
[08:15] <heno> OK, so we'll just pick the position setting in your mail and call that settled ?
[08:15] <TheMuso> Yep. We still have time to test so we can hopefully get feedback.
[08:15] <dholbach> yes
[08:15] <heno> ok, point 2?
[08:16] <heno> I guess that's an upstream bug really
[08:16] <TheMuso> hmmm
[08:16] <dholbach> *nod*
[08:16] <heno> they need to get used to the idea of fixing that
[08:16] <dholbach> at least we could ask for pointers
[08:16] <dholbach> :)))
[08:16] <TheMuso> No pun intended right? :)
[08:16] <heno> I still havent 100% understood the problem
[08:16] <TheMuso> Me neither.
[08:17] <TheMuso> Something to do with gok getting more direct hardware access to the mouse.
[08:17] <heno> Gok just needs more testing and exposure generally which we will hopefully provide
[08:17] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:18] <heno> Has anyone else experienced my panel crashing bug?
[08:18] <heno> I've asked other random people to test on dapper
[08:18] <TheMuso> heno: I will be totally honest and say that I haven't played with GOK AT ALL>
[08:18] <TheMuso> LATELY
[08:18] <heno> but so far it works for everyone else
[08:19] <dholbach> i guess that was the at-spi / gail changes that made it work again
[08:19] <heno> it's a quick test: just install and start somethinmg from the gnome panel while gok is running
[08:19] <TheMuso> Righto.
[08:19] <heno> if nothing crashes you're ok
[08:20] <heno> I've not tested it today after the latest updates
[08:20] <heno> anyway, it doesn't look like a showstopper for us
[08:21] <dholbach> i seem safe
[08:21] <heno> works for most and doesn't get in anyones way
[08:21] <TheMuso> ok
[08:22] <TheMuso> Nice to see GNOME is killing its processes properly now. :)
[08:23] <sorush20> so what are you guys trying to make more accessible? 
[08:23] <heno> So I guess the conclusion on GOK is that it works acceptibly now
[08:23] <dholbach> sorush20: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda is our agenda
[08:23] <TheMuso> So if it is just a matter of running something from the panel while GOK is running, there seems to be no problem. I haven't updated today either.
[08:24] <dholbach> sorush20: we're discussing point 2 atm
[08:24] <heno> and if we have time, enenergy and brains to make it better for dapper we will
[08:24] <heno> but it can go in as it is
[08:24] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:25] <heno> Cool. I might be I have funky hardware or that a reinstall would fix it
[08:25] <heno> I'll try it on the Live CD too when it turns up there
[08:25] <heno> Great! point 3?
[08:26] <heno> Is there somewhere we can see the packages currently on the live cd?
[08:26] <heno> germinate something or other?
[08:26] <TheMuso> heno: Yes there is. Give me a sec.
[08:26] <ogra> heno, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/live
[08:27] <ogra> and http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/desktop
[08:27] <heno> ogra: thanks. and hello :)
[08:27] <TheMuso> Thanks ogra.
[08:27] <ogra> (live contains desktop)
[08:27] <heno> ogra: are you absorbing all these cool new AT features into Edubuntu?
[08:28] <ogra> not yet
[08:28] <ogra> i have massive space probs
[08:28] <TheMuso> So it seems that the packages we need are not there yet.
[08:28] <dholbach> we really need to know how much all these packages will take
[08:28] <heno> ah, ok
[08:28] <ogra> (cat include the example content)
[08:28] <TheMuso> I found the same when checking one of the dalies the other day.
[08:28] <heno> dholbach: yeah, I'm still in the dark on that
[08:28] <ogra> *cant
[08:29] <heno> ogra: hm, shame
[08:29] <ogra> yup
[08:29] <dholbach> ogra: it's just 8,7M :)
[08:29] <heno> ogra: are you carrying the winfoss?
[08:29] <heno> that will shrink this time
[08:29] <ogra> dholbach, i dont even have 1M free
[08:29] <ogra> heno, nope
[08:29] <ogra> only edubuntu
[08:29] <dholbach> ogra: throw away openoffice and add the accessibility stuff
[08:30] <heno> I'm making some unilateral cuts :)
[08:30] <ogra> and as long as we ship kdeedu we wont have space
[08:30] <heno> makes sense
[08:30] <ogra> dholbach, nope, i'll replace the kde stuff in dapper+1
[08:30] <heno> replace OOo with koffice?
[08:30] <sorush20> I can't even start gok 
[08:31] <heno> sorush20: have you installed at-spi and restarted the X session?
[08:31] <heno> sorush20: try starting it from the command line
[08:31] <heno> see if you get any errors there
[08:32] <sorush20> heno: shouldn't that be part of the dependency that needes to be installed.. I get the error that can't find registery.. 
[08:32] <heno> sorush20: it should yes
[08:32] <dholbach> sorush20: could you file a bug about that and include which version of ubuntu you use?
[08:32] <sorush20> its running now thanks.. but at-spi sould be installed with it.. 
[08:33] <sorush20> oka
[08:33] <dholbach> thanks
[08:33] <heno> brb
[08:33] <TheMuso> I will see if I can chace up the total size of packages needing to be installed.
[08:33] <dholbach> that'd make it easier to start a disciussion
[08:34] <sorush20> what packages are you guys talking about ... and will there be a gui fo me to just check box the assistive stuff or will there be a blue screen? 
[08:35] <TheMuso> Good old speakup. Managed to cause a bit of a kernel oops of some sort when trying to press several keys at once or close to each other.
[08:35] <TheMuso> An now on another machine while I wait for that box to reboot. :)
[08:36] <sorush20> brrb
[08:36] <heno> sorush20: a black screen actually: http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/screenshots/dapper/flight4/gfxboot-big.png
[08:37] <heno> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=AT-boot-menu.png
[08:37] <sorush20> heno: so it hasn't changed.. that is bad... there should be something similar to xp installation where you can select extra stuff like a gui.. 
[08:38] <heno> sorush20: actually our solution is better than the XP one
[08:39] <heno> youb select this technology at the very first screen and off you go
[08:39] <dholbach> it does the right thing for you
[08:40] <heno> I've seen some shots of the vista installer though and that's looking strong on this
[08:40] <heno> so they're catching up :)
[08:40] <heno> dholbach: the Live boot
[08:40] <TheMuso> heno: It won't be accessible AFAIK.
[08:40] <sorush20> I guess you have a point.. although I think you would agree that it would be better if there were some icons.. like a disabled wheel chair.. stuff. like that to make it more visually enhanced.. 
[08:40] <heno> I tried a live CD a few days ago, but I got no boiot at all then
[08:40] <TheMuso> No good for us people with vision impairements.
[08:41] <TheMuso> heno: I don't even think my casper stuff is on the live CD yet.
[08:41] <heno> Ah, the wheelchair picture is therrible! :)
[08:41] <TheMuso> Mithrandir only merged it a couple of days ago
[08:41] <sorush20> TheMuso: you have a big point there.. 
[08:41] <heno> I need to email the icon designer and make sure we don't get that :)
[08:41] <Mithrandir> TheMuso: it could be on tomorrows if you want.
[08:42] <heno> Mithrandir: yes please :)
[08:42] <TheMuso> Mithrandir: No point in doing so until we have the necessary packages.
[08:42] <TheMuso> on the live CD.
[08:42] <TheMuso> Which is the point we are still discussing.
[08:42] <TheMuso> I am trying to work out here just how much space they would take up, so bare with me guys
[08:43] <heno> so what is the right process for that?
[08:43] <heno> thanks
[08:43] <TheMuso> We need to finalize what speech approach we are going to take, and if we have to use flite due to space constraints, there is no choice but to use speech-dispatcher. Yeah the driver is young, but we have no choice.
[08:44] <heno> sorush20: here is a description of how it will work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/Accessibility
[08:45] <heno> the irony is that it doesn't seem to take that much less space
[08:45] <sorush20> how are you guys going to do documentation for blind people? 
[08:45] <heno> I'm hoping to push the new slimmer WinFOSS package out Sunday-ish, which should clear up a ton of space
[08:45] <sorush20> talking about the interface between brail writer and linux? 
[08:45] <Riddell> heno: what will (or not) be in that?
[08:46] <heno> Then the plan is to just grab it again ;)
[08:46] <heno> Riddell: I'll remove OpenOffice and see if people cry
[08:46] <Riddell> that should free some space :)
[08:46] <heno> the mailing lists seemed to agree on that
[08:47] <heno> but I'll add some stuff
[08:47] <Riddell> heno: will you do the same for the kubuntu winfoss?
[08:47] <heno> of course some wanten no winfoss at all
[08:47] <TheMuso> Ok. The debs themselves are about 10.6MB. When installed, 40.5MB will be used on disk.
[08:47] <heno> Riddell: didn't we already skip OO on kubuntu?
[08:47] <TheMuso> Give or take a few meg.
[08:48] <heno> TheMuso: that's not too bad
[08:48] <Riddell> heno: don't think so, can't actually remember now
[08:48] <heno> Riddell: btw, I have anew layout now which IMHO is look sweet :) 
[08:48] <heno> http://www.theopencd.org/LayoutIdeas
[08:48] <heno> (sorry OT)
[08:48] <TheMuso> heno: Thats not entirely accurate, as I am trying to work this out on a dapper chroot atm. That is with flite though.
[08:49] <TheMuso> But as close as I can get it.
[08:49] <heno> ah, ok
[08:49] <heno> I'd be very interested to see Festival too
[08:49] <TheMuso> Hang on.
[08:50] <TheMuso> Festival on its own is about 16.1MB.
[08:52] <heno> So we might land on about 22 as the Sun-gnome guys suggested
[08:52] <dholbach> which packages? installed size?
[08:52] <heno> that would be ok
[08:52] <heno> deb size I guess
[08:52] <TheMuso> We are concerned with the installed size as debs aren't used on the Live CD.
[08:53] <heno> True, but I guess they give an idea of how well it compresses
[08:53] <TheMuso> Yeah thats true.
[08:54] <TheMuso> SHould have a deacent figure for you in a sec for gnome-speech with festival.
[08:54] <heno> cool
[08:55] <heno> enrico: did you ever get openoffice or firefox to talk to you in Italian?
[08:55] <heno> I was reading about your efforts on planet debian I think
[08:55] <TheMuso> There is only 3MB difference between flite and festival it seems.
[08:56] <dholbach> hrm
[08:56] <heno> right, so the choice seems obvious. perhaps flite is bundled with too much stuff?
[08:56] <TheMuso> Festival packages compress down to about 5948KB from 16MB or so.
[08:57] <TheMuso> I don't know.
[08:57] <TheMuso> Festival would actually be a safer route, as it is an already tested gnome-speech setup
[08:57] <heno> I think we should lobby for Festival then
[08:57] <heno> yep
[08:57] <TheMuso> Mind you that doesn't include any other voices for other languages.
[08:57] <enrico> heno: haven't done that try yet
[08:58] <heno> how big is GOK by comparison?
[08:58] <enrico> heno: but I should be about to get a small working plan approved (and paid)
[08:58] <TheMuso> heno: Well in that case, we also need to get libgnome-speech3, gnopernicus, libatspi1.0-0, at-spi and gok onto the CD.
[08:58] <heno> enrico: really, to work on accessibility stuff? cool!
[08:58] <dholbach> what about gnome-mag?
[08:58] <TheMuso> and gnome-mag
[08:59] <TheMuso> BUt that will come in time. :)
[08:59] <heno> what do you mean 'in that case'? Festival route?
[08:59] <dholbach> how much would that weigh in?
[09:00] <heno> TheMuso: definately! you are getting a proven track record as an expert :)
[09:00] <TheMuso> heno: Gnome-speech with festival has been used dand tested extensively. It is a proven speech setup.
[09:00] <enrico> heno: nothing signed yet, fingers crossed, lots of final work to do in the next few days
[09:01] <enrico> TheMuso: we're talking not many hours so far, unfortunately.  But the good thing is that we are talking for a small pilot project to see how we get alng
[09:01] <TheMuso> dholbach: about 37.9MB. It was bigger before for flite due to other gnome libraries having to be installed.
[09:01] <TheMuso> So flite would probably be 34 or so.
[09:01] <heno> TheMuso: is that the total with gok and everything?
[09:02] <dholbach> + the speech-dispatcher dependencies
[09:02] <TheMuso> heno: Yes.
[09:02] <TheMuso> dholbach: That is not including speech-dispatcher or flite.
[09:02] <heno> which we don't need with Festival
[09:02] <dholbach> dotconf and speech-tool
[09:02] <dholbach> dotconf and speech-tools
[09:02] <TheMuso> They only get included with flite.
[09:02] <dholbach> phew
[09:03] <dholbach> yeah
[09:03] <heno> TheMuso: OK, cool. It's good to have an approximate number number
[09:03] <TheMuso> So as much as flite is smaller, I reckon we push for festival.
[09:03] <TheMuso> festival is in main anyway.
[09:03] <heno> I'll email the people who decide and ask nicely
[09:04] <TheMuso> But for future relesaes, if the speech-dispatcher driver gets better, I would like to pursue that route for speech.
[09:04] <TheMuso> heno: Thanks.
[09:04] <heno> And Festival sounds soooo much better IMO
[09:04] <TheMuso> Once we have the packages on the CD, we can then get the casper stuff done and start testing.
[09:05] <TheMuso> Festival in the future allows for further language expansion should we need it.
[09:05] <heno> TheMuso, dholbach: could one of you end me a list of the package names 
[09:05] <heno> ? for my email
[09:05] <TheMuso> I have your address. Sending now.
[09:06] <heno> thanks
[09:06] <enrico> TheMuso: note that festival might not be the synthesis of choice for some languages.  For example, while festival is a decent synthesis for Italian, there's a proprietary synthesis called 'Eloquence', for Linux, which is light years better
[09:08] <TheMuso> Sent.
[09:08] <sorush20> is the meeting finished.? 
[09:08] <TheMuso> enrico: I know, but that is proprietary. We can't ship that.
[09:08] <TheMuso> sorush20: We still have another point to discuss.
[09:09] <enrico> TheMuso: sure
[09:09] <heno> got it thanks
[09:09] <heno> So point 4: the todo list needs cleaning up
[09:09] <heno> Which is good news
[09:09] <enrico> TheMuso: I just wanted to point out that I wish festival shouldn't be too hardcoded into things
[09:10] <dholbach> yeah :-))))
[09:10] <heno> perhaps we should split it into a dapper and a deferred section
[09:10] <TheMuso> enrico: It isn't. However I don't see how that synth would work. Can you point me to some info about it?
[09:10] <TheMuso> heno: SOunds good.
[09:11] <heno> enrico: we should even consider making a derivative at some point where some priprietary stuff could in theory go in
[09:11] <TheMuso> heno: Or at least packages to help one install proprietary stuff.
[09:11] <heno> right
[09:11] <TheMuso> As there are a few synths that gnome-speech supports that are proprietary, and I have access to them, i.e bought copies for testing.
[09:12] <TheMuso> And on my laptop, I use one of them on a daily basis
[09:12] <heno> One point on the todo list that we might want to bring up is documentation
[09:13] <TheMuso> I am not good at docs. :)
[09:13] <heno> that was doing really well but seems to have stalled
[09:13] <enrico> TheMuso: should be around http://www.speechworks.com/demos/eti.cfm but I can't get to it now
[09:13] <TheMuso> I think Jason is busy with life stuff.
[09:13] <heno> I think Jaso got really busy
[09:13] <enrico> TheMuso: more info will come when I'll actually lay my hands on it
[09:13] <enrico> heno: for Italian, that'd be something I'd do
[09:13] <enrico> heno: (I mean, the derivative)
[09:14] <TheMuso> I get a download question. Won't let me view it as it should.
[09:14] <heno> enrico: cool
[09:14] <enrico> TheMuso: :(  I get a white page and a 1x1 pixel popup
[09:15] <heno> I've spoken with mdke on the doc team and they arehappy to include it if we have something ready
[09:15] <TheMuso> enrico: Worked out why, and I know eactly the synth you are talking about, as it is used in JAWS for Windows, and many mobile applications.
[09:15] <heno> it would go in yelp
[09:15] <dholbach> brb
[09:15] <TheMuso> Eloquence is a well known synth in the blind community.
[09:16] <TheMuso> THey changed name to Nuance COmmunications.
[09:16] <TheMuso> Or something like that.
[09:16] <enrico> TheMuso: there'd even be a 'Loquendo' for Italian which should be even better, but it has no Linux binaries as I know of.  Although I could have extreme plans of running it as a TCP service in a Window virtual machine inside a vmware player and making it speak from Linux :)
[09:16] <enrico> (kind of like my old dosgate hack)
[09:17] <TheMuso> Go to www.nuance.com for more info.
[09:17] <enrico> But please, don't make me digress on proprietary software.  That's a stinky bit that shouldn't be particularly supported by this group.
[09:18] <TheMuso> I know.
[09:18] <TheMuso> I am all for free software, but proprietary synths are so much better.
[09:18] <TheMuso> But that is another story.
[09:19] <heno> Right, so we are at the end of the agenda I think
[09:19] <heno> any other items?
[09:19] <TheMuso> Not from me atm.
[09:20] <TheMuso> dholbach: I should have a patch for gnopernicus with gconf settings later today.
[09:20] <enrico> about self
[09:20] <dholbach> TheMuso: that'd be great
[09:20] <enrico> If all goes well I'm about to sign a small contract (100 hours for 2006) with a local high-tech center for the blind
[09:20] <dholbach> TheMuso: we'll have a status update meeting at 2:00 utc, so i'll be awake for quite a while
[09:21] <TheMuso> Ok.
[09:21] <TheMuso> It shouldn't take all that long.
[09:21] <enrico> they have skilled people (but not on Linux) and a big archive of accessibility hardware
[09:21] <TheMuso> Then I can remove those changes from the casper script and push them through.
[09:21] <enrico> the idea is to try to start looking at accessibility of free software, and atm that means Ubuntu
[09:21] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[09:22] <heno> enrico: cool. Look forward to working with you on that :)
[09:22] <enrico> plans go along the line of "first get to do it.  Then document it.  Then improve it."
[09:22] <heno> sounds like a good plan
[09:22] <enrico> I look forward to working with you all on that
[09:22] <enrico> and of course I hope the project goes well and it can be continued
[09:22] <dholbach> cool :)
[09:23] <enrico> documentation will be mainly in Italian, or centered at having an Italian speaking desktop
[09:23] <TheMuso> It would be nice to get some of the team at least at the next conference.
[09:23] <enrico> I could do translation of it, though
[09:24] <heno> TheMuso: dholbach and I will certainly be there
[09:24] <dholbach> wooo! :)
[09:24] <enrico> Ubuntu confs are fun
[09:24] <TheMuso> Or seek other funding to help.
[09:25] <heno> TheMuso: cool! We'll support you :)
[09:25] <TheMuso> Cool, thanks guys. Even if sponsorship doesn't happen, there are other sources of funding I can certainly look at, which may help me get there anyway.
[09:27] <heno> OK, I will go write some emails. Thanks guys. Good meeting!
[09:27] <enrico> heno: thanks for telling me of the meeting.  I was in need of a pretext to tell everyone what I should going to be up to :)
[09:27] <heno> heh
[09:27] <TheMuso> heno: Thanks again.
[09:28] <dholbach> thanks guys for all the good work you did :)
[09:29] <TheMuso> No problem.
[09:29] <heno> yep, we've got a good little core team going now :)
[09:29] <Riddell> who's the best person to talk to about live cd accessibility profile for kubuntu?
[09:30] <heno> depends on what aspect, probably TheMuso or Mithrandir or Kamion
[09:30] <heno> or yourself :)
[09:30] <Riddell> just need to find out how it's done so we can do the equivalent thing
[09:31] <TheMuso> Riddell: FOr the GNOME accessibility settings, we are directly setting stuff in gconf.
[09:31] <dholbach> Riddell: one part of it is in casper's casper-bottom/30accessibility
[09:33] <TheMuso> The other part will be in the packages we ship on the CD.
[09:33] <TheMuso> i.e gnopernicus will have the settings we want patched into it.
[09:34] <TheMuso> So what you see in the casper script is going to change quite a lot in the next day or so.
[09:35] <Riddell> where can I find that script?
[09:36] <TheMuso> Ok guys, I'm outa here. Ping me in #ubuntu-accessibility or query me if you need anything.
[09:36] <TheMuso> If you are using bzr, pull a branch from Mithrandir's casper trunk.
[09:36] <Riddell> TheMuso: thanks
[09:36] <TheMuso> I can get the address for you if you like.