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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | ||
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu | ||
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LaserJock | meeting? | 10:01 |
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terrex | it should be already started :s | 10:02 |
LaserJock | ok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting? | 10:02 |
manicka | I'm here | 10:04 |
LaserJock | hmm, doesn't look promising | 10:05 |
manicka | no | 10:05 |
robotgeek | i'm here too | 10:06 |
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LaserJock | hmm, well if naaman isn't here... | 10:10 |
manicka | there's not much to talk about... | 10:10 |
LaserJock | hmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting? | 10:14 |
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bustacap | hello all, is the doc meeting on now? | 10:16 |
manicka | hi | 10:16 |
bustacap | oh poo where is mdke?? | 10:16 |
robotgeek | bustacap: naaman isn't here | 10:16 |
manicka | lol | 10:16 |
bustacap | haha naaman is bustacap :D | 10:16 |
robotgeek | bustacap: oh, my bad. lol | 10:17 |
bustacap | hehe | 10:17 |
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LaserJock | hmm, ok so not many people here then | 10:17 |
bustacap | I just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh shit, it's the Doc Team meeting" | 10:18 |
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jjesse | not around for much longer | 10:18 |
bustacap | well, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I will convene it... | 10:18 |
=== bustacap looks at the MeetingAgenda | ||
bustacap | I am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent drinking session straight after work ;) ) | 10:19 |
bustacap | OK onto the meeting.. | 10:20 |
LaserJock | well, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get some agenda items for next time | 10:20 |
bustacap | we will just put issues to the next meeting without the people here to represent them | 10:20 |
bustacap | but onto the first one.. | 10:20 |
bustacap | using common files in the DocBook documents | 10:21 |
bustacap | does anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up about this.. | 10:21 |
LaserJock | I think a far amount of docs are using the common preface | 10:21 |
bustacap | I think this issue has been brought up before at a previous meeting.. | 10:22 |
robotgeek | the Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly | 10:22 |
manicka | there's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and kubuntu dg's | 10:22 |
bustacap | is this the same as the ubuntu .xml files? | 10:22 |
robotgeek | manicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest | 10:23 |
bustacap | manicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to all of the ubuntu documentation.. | 10:23 |
manicka | ah, ok | 10:23 |
robotgeek | well, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being here | 10:25 |
bustacap | well to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a little different in the guides | 10:25 |
bustacap | but - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same | 10:26 |
bustacap | it should point to the same web-help resources.. | 10:26 |
LaserJock | what mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common preface | 10:26 |
LaserJock | and perhaps other common elements | 10:26 |
robotgeek | bustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different | 10:26 |
bustacap | for the getting help?? | 10:26 |
robotgeek | bustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users | 10:27 |
bustacap | well I think that the getting-help should encompass all versions of ubuntu | 10:27 |
jjesse | and the different channels | 10:27 |
bustacap | it should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here; for help with Kubuntu -> go here.. | 10:27 |
jjesse | i don't think there is enough commonality to get common files | 10:28 |
robotgeek | jjesse: +1 | 10:28 |
bustacap | it is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the USG | 10:28 |
jjesse | USG == Ubuntu Server Guide? | 10:28 |
robotgeek | bustacap: then the KDG takes over :) | 10:28 |
bustacap | so there should be help resources on where to go as well.. | 10:28 |
bustacap | ok - fair call.. | 10:29 |
robotgeek | bustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is removed now | 10:29 |
bustacap | ooh sorry ;) | 10:29 |
bustacap | I am out of the loop :) | 10:29 |
jjesse | to make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide | 10:29 |
bustacap | yeah.. | 10:29 |
robotgeek | bustacap: i was too, until yesterday :) | 10:29 |
LaserJock | ok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about commonality so we can just change things once | 10:30 |
robotgeek | LaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file | 10:30 |
LaserJock | right, but we talked about a common preface for example | 10:31 |
bustacap | oh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing.. | 10:31 |
bustacap | it is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about it.. | 10:31 |
bustacap | moving on - next item.. | 10:31 |
LaserJock | but I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit so it might not be worth discussing in length | 10:31 |
robotgeek | LaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is | 10:32 |
robotgeek | i copied KDG's preface from UDG | 10:32 |
bustacap | WikiCleanupProposal | 10:32 |
bustacap | manicka are you in on this? | 10:32 |
jjesse | i would argue for common files where they make sense... for example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same preface if they have a preface | 10:32 |
LaserJock | jjesse: exactly | 10:32 |
bustacap | for sure jjesse | 10:33 |
LaserJock | jjesse: that was the point | 10:33 |
jjesse | sorry working so only paying half attention | 10:33 |
manicka | I'm prepared to help where i can | 10:33 |
bustacap | sure.. | 10:33 |
robotgeek | jjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess | 10:33 |
bustacap | it should already be implemented for same distro docs.. | 10:33 |
LaserJock | bustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though | 10:34 |
bustacap | LaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to correct | 10:34 |
robotgeek | bustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's the same for the rest too | 10:35 |
LaserJock | right, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-) | 10:35 |
bustacap | we can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to make them compatible in the future either.. | 10:35 |
robotgeek | bustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml is not | 10:36 |
LaserJock | ? | 10:36 |
bustacap | there isn't too much to be gained by making them the same document.. | 10:36 |
bustacap | well preface.xml could contain more distro-specific information.. | 10:36 |
robotgeek | it would make sense for a common preface.xml across both ubuntu and kubuntu | 10:36 |
bustacap | iirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu | 10:37 |
robotgeek | bustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and how to interpret it. | 10:37 |
LaserJock | the preface contents are just a " these are the conventions, etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent... | 10:37 |
bustacap | oh ok.. | 10:37 |
bustacap | well that could be the same then.. | 10:38 |
robotgeek | and getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents, and all kubuntu docs | 10:38 |
LaserJock | it wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common items we should try to, so that we have consistency and eliminate redundancy | 10:38 |
robotgeek | true, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and keep moving :) | 10:39 |
bustacap | well include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both then.. | 10:39 |
bustacap | yeah.. | 10:39 |
bustacap | it will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are looking for help in the UDG as well.. | 10:39 |
LaserJock | bustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral | 10:40 |
bustacap | ok - well make that common across all distros.. | 10:40 |
robotgeek | LaserJock: maybe not | 10:40 |
robotgeek | i have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal | 10:41 |
bustacap | in preface?? | 10:41 |
LaserJock | you guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro specific that I know of | 10:41 |
robotgeek | To start a Terminal session, select: Konsole from the desktop menu system. | 10:41 |
robotgeek | maybe i should just rephrase that, lol | 10:41 |
bustacap | I wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml?? | 10:41 |
robotgeek | that is in preface | 10:42 |
LaserJock | no it isn't | 10:42 |
bustacap | why would command-line operations be in a Preface?? | 10:42 |
LaserJock | robotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface | 10:42 |
robotgeek | okay, atlease in the kdg preface :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html | 10:42 |
LaserJock | robotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface! | 10:43 |
robotgeek | okay, i think need to change it then | 10:43 |
robotgeek | :) | 10:43 |
bustacap | well that line could be easily stripped then.. | 10:43 |
bustacap | it is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the Conventions section.. | 10:43 |
LaserJock | arrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be using that is distro neutral | 10:43 |
LaserJock | you shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory | 10:44 |
robotgeek | okay, fine. will make the change | 10:44 |
bustacap | I think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut -> move on to making both files common across all documentation | 10:45 |
LaserJock | do you guys see it? in common/C/ | 10:45 |
robotgeek | LaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now | 10:45 |
bustacap | alright - moving on to the next item.. | 10:46 |
bustacap | WikiCleanupProposal | 10:46 |
bustacap | at the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well | 10:47 |
bustacap | I might move through a couple of points in it and where it is at.. | 10:48 |
manicka | feedback on the list has been very productive | 10:48 |
bustacap | the Wiki Move.. | 10:48 |
bustacap | there may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the CategoryDocumentation before the wiki move | 10:50 |
bustacap | other than that - I cannot see any problems with the impending wiki move (whenever that happens) | 10:50 |
bustacap | any information about the wiki move? | 10:50 |
bustacap | there has been a spec put forward about it.. | 10:51 |
manicka | I believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't there to clarify the issues | 10:52 |
bustacap | yeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than discussing it at CC meetings.. | 10:52 |
manicka | discussion went round in circles a bit | 10:52 |
bustacap | it might even be in Launchpad | 10:52 |
bustacap | ok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki | 10:53 |
bustacap | bit of a shame mdke isn't here | 10:53 |
bustacap | but manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the changes to UserDocumentation?? | 10:53 |
manicka | I like the concise nature of his suggestions | 10:54 |
bustacap | yeah, it is a good cleanup | 10:54 |
manicka | the frontpage needs to be as simple as possible | 10:54 |
bustacap | I can see where he is coming from with his objections to my "Misc" series of pages | 10:55 |
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manicka | yes | 10:55 |
bustacap | albeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst UserDocBeta was being built | 10:55 |
manicka | the problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the wiki | 10:56 |
bustacap | yeah, I am getting that feeling as well | 10:56 |
bustacap | I find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the Wiki | 10:57 |
manicka | such a large restructure needs a concerted effort | 10:57 |
robotgeek | true | 10:57 |
manicka | a few people can't pull it off on their own | 10:57 |
bustacap | from a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki fits right in with looking for doco on the net | 10:58 |
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manicka | agreed | 10:58 |
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bustacap | for sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly | 10:58 |
manicka | yes | 10:59 |
bustacap | if there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported (in ideals) by the Doc-Team | 10:59 |
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bustacap | I don't want to be working on a project that the majority of the Doc-Team turn there noses up at.. | 11:00 |
manicka | yes, agreed | 11:00 |
bustacap | that's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the issue.. | 11:00 |
manicka | so our first gioal must be approval of the idea | 11:00 |
manicka | the beta I mean | 11:00 |
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bustacap | robotgeek, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good introduction to the matter | 11:00 |
robotgeek | bustacap: reading it now | 11:00 |
bustacap | well I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has gone and suggested his model | 11:01 |
bustacap | the whole subindexing - however - is not dead | 11:01 |
manicka | I was thinking of the long term model | 11:01 |
bustacap | yeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model if everything was ready in the background.. | 11:02 |
manicka | there's no point putting a lot of effort into a background model if it won't fly in the long run | 11:03 |
bustacap | with his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted | 11:03 |
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bustacap | I think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across all subject areas | 11:04 |
bustacap | and whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer | 11:05 |
robotgeek | bustacap: +1 | 11:05 |
bustacap | there needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu and the apps it has | 11:05 |
manicka | yes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting forum people to contribute | 11:05 |
bustacap | absolutely | 11:06 |
robotgeek | bustacap: for example like the KQuickguide? | 11:06 |
manicka | I'd just like to see something happen | 11:06 |
bustacap | manicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment drive for people from the forums | 11:06 |
bustacap | manicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue driving the issue | 11:07 |
manicka | ok | 11:07 |
bustacap | the problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said - nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what I have proposed | 11:08 |
manicka | it's difficult to know either way | 11:08 |
robotgeek | bustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff | 11:08 |
manicka | I look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff | 11:09 |
manicka | the udsf issues have worn me out somewhat | 11:09 |
bustacap | robotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along with the video players etc... basically look for help in one subject area and be enli | 11:11 |
bustacap | ghtened in so many more :) | 11:11 |
bustacap | manicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit there.. | 11:11 |
manicka | no, agreed | 11:11 |
robotgeek | bustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working on WifiDocs converted the wireless pages that ways | 11:12 |
bustacap | and as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there.. | 11:12 |
bustacap | yeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and going.. | 11:13 |
manicka | yes, a suitable framework is the key... | 11:13 |
bustacap | basically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people involved in the project with the same committment as you and I to really get this off the ground.. | 11:13 |
bustacap | and as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time to contribute to fixing up the Wiki | 11:14 |
manicka | hmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the forums are working on 'other' projects | 11:14 |
manicka | but you never know | 11:15 |
bustacap | yeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the Doc-Team initially | 11:15 |
robotgeek | i may have time, but i can't commit right now | 11:15 |
manicka | so we may see some activity in a few weeks | 11:15 |
robotgeek | commit time, i mean | 11:15 |
robotgeek | btw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item | 11:16 |
bustacap | robotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the proposals put forward and I include you in any high level emails/discussions that may arise over the project.. | 11:16 |
bustacap | robotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and close off the meeting | 11:17 |
robotgeek | bustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and get in touch with you? | 11:17 |
bustacap | sure, drop me an email (check private message) | 11:17 |
bustacap | basically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and I will slowly change the beta to suit | 11:18 |
manicka | ok | 11:19 |
bustacap | also, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and move it across to UserDocumentationDraft | 11:19 |
manicka | great | 11:19 |
bustacap | once approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the current UserDocumentation | 11:19 |
bustacap | and! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball rolling.. | 11:20 |
manicka | sounds like a plan | 11:21 |
bustacap | excellent | 11:21 |
robotgeek | :) | 11:21 |
bustacap | well I think that concludes today's meeting.. | 11:21 |
robotgeek | holdon | 11:21 |
=== bustacap bangs a gavel :D | ||
bustacap | sorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of water and heading to bed - big night last night | 11:22 |
robotgeek | LaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml headers . Riddell removed them for something related to xincludes | 11:22 |
bustacap | night/morning all.. | 11:23 |
robotgeek | bustacap: sure, later | 11:23 |
robotgeek | anyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i won't be making a change right now | 11:23 |
robotgeek | alrite, later all | 11:23 |
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