/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/03/08/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu
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LaserJockmeeting?10:01
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terrexit should be already started :s10:02
LaserJockok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?10:02
manickaI'm here10:04
LaserJockhmm, doesn't look promising10:05
manickano10:05
robotgeeki'm here too 10:06
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LaserJockhmm, well if naaman isn't here...10:10
manickathere's not much to talk about...10:10
LaserJockhmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting?10:14
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bustacaphello all, is the doc meeting on now?10:16
manickahi10:16
bustacapoh poo where is mdke??10:16
robotgeekbustacap: naaman isn't here10:16
manickalol10:16
bustacaphaha naaman is bustacap :D10:16
robotgeekbustacap: oh, my bad. lol10:17
bustacaphehe10:17
=== robotgeek smacks himself
LaserJockhmm, ok so not many people here then10:17
bustacapI just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh shit, it's the Doc Team meeting"10:18
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jjessenot around for much longer10:18
bustacapwell, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I will convene it...10:18
=== bustacap looks at the MeetingAgenda
bustacapI am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent drinking session straight after work ;) )10:19
bustacapOK onto the meeting..10:20
LaserJockwell, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get some agenda items for next time10:20
bustacapwe will just put issues to the next meeting without the people here to represent them10:20
bustacapbut onto the first one..10:20
bustacapusing common files in the DocBook documents10:21
bustacapdoes anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up about this..10:21
LaserJockI think a far amount of docs are using the common preface10:21
bustacapI think this issue has been brought up before at a previous meeting..10:22
robotgeekthe Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly10:22
manickathere's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and kubuntu dg's10:22
bustacapis this the same as the ubuntu .xml files?10:22
robotgeekmanicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest10:23
bustacapmanicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to all of the ubuntu documentation..10:23
manickaah, ok10:23
robotgeekwell, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being here10:25
bustacapwell to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a little different in the guides10:25
bustacapbut - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same10:26
bustacapit should point to the same web-help resources..10:26
LaserJockwhat mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common preface10:26
LaserJockand perhaps other common elements10:26
robotgeekbustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different10:26
bustacapfor the getting help??10:26
robotgeekbustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users10:27
bustacapwell I think that the getting-help should encompass all versions of ubuntu10:27
jjesseand the different channels10:27
bustacapit should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here; for help with Kubuntu -> go here..10:27
jjessei don't think there is enough commonality to get common files10:28
robotgeekjjesse: +110:28
bustacapit is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the USG10:28
jjesseUSG == Ubuntu Server Guide?10:28
robotgeekbustacap: then the KDG takes over :)10:28
bustacapso there should be help resources on where to go as well..10:28
bustacapok - fair call..10:29
robotgeekbustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is removed now10:29
bustacapooh sorry ;)10:29
bustacapI am out of the loop :)10:29
jjesseto make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide 10:29
bustacapyeah..10:29
robotgeekbustacap: i was too, until yesterday :)10:29
LaserJockok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about commonality so we can just change things once10:30
robotgeekLaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file10:30
LaserJockright, but we talked about a common preface for example10:31
bustacapoh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing..10:31
bustacapit is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about it..10:31
bustacapmoving on - next item..10:31
LaserJockbut I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit so it might not be worth discussing in length10:31
robotgeekLaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is10:32
robotgeeki copied KDG's preface from UDG10:32
bustacapWikiCleanupProposal10:32
bustacapmanicka are you in on this?10:32
jjessei would argue for common files where they make sense... for example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same preface if they have a preface10:32
LaserJockjjesse: exactly10:32
bustacapfor sure jjesse 10:33
LaserJockjjesse: that was the point10:33
jjessesorry working so only paying half attention10:33
manickaI'm prepared to help where i can10:33
bustacapsure..10:33
robotgeekjjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess10:33
bustacapit should already be implemented for same distro docs..10:33
LaserJockbustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though10:34
bustacapLaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to correct10:34
robotgeekbustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's the same for the rest too10:35
LaserJockright, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-)10:35
bustacapwe can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to make them compatible in the future either..10:35
robotgeekbustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml is not10:36
LaserJock?10:36
bustacapthere isn't too much to be gained by making them the same document..10:36
bustacapwell preface.xml could contain more distro-specific information..10:36
robotgeekit would make sense for a common preface.xml across both ubuntu and kubuntu10:36
bustacapiirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu10:37
robotgeekbustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and how to interpret it. 10:37
LaserJockthe preface contents are just a " these are the conventions, etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent...10:37
bustacapoh ok..10:37
bustacapwell that could be the same then..10:38
robotgeekand getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents, and all kubuntu docs10:38
LaserJockit wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common items we should try to, so that we have consistency and eliminate redundancy10:38
robotgeektrue, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and keep moving :)10:39
bustacapwell include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both then..10:39
bustacapyeah..10:39
bustacapit will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are looking for help in the UDG as well..10:39
LaserJockbustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral10:40
bustacapok - well make that common across all distros..10:40
robotgeekLaserJock: maybe not10:40
robotgeeki have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal10:41
bustacapin preface??10:41
LaserJockyou guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro specific that I know of10:41
robotgeekTo start a Terminal  session, select: Konsole  from the desktop menu system.10:41
robotgeekmaybe i should just rephrase that, lol10:41
bustacapI wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml??10:41
robotgeekthat is in preface10:42
LaserJockno it isn't10:42
bustacapwhy would command-line operations be in a Preface??10:42
LaserJockrobotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface10:42
robotgeekokay, atlease in the kdg preface :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html10:42
LaserJockrobotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface!10:43
robotgeekokay, i think need to change it then10:43
robotgeek:)10:43
bustacapwell that line could be easily stripped then..10:43
bustacapit is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the Conventions section..10:43
LaserJockarrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be using that is distro neutral10:43
LaserJockyou shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory10:44
robotgeekokay, fine. will make the change10:44
bustacapI think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut -> move on to making both files common across all documentation10:45
LaserJockdo you guys see it? in common/C/10:45
robotgeekLaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now10:45
bustacapalright - moving on to the next item..10:46
bustacapWikiCleanupProposal10:46
bustacapat the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well10:47
bustacapI might move through a couple of points in it and where it is at..10:48
manickafeedback on the list has been very productive10:48
bustacapthe Wiki Move..10:48
bustacapthere may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the CategoryDocumentation before the wiki move10:50
bustacapother than that - I cannot see any problems with the impending wiki move (whenever that happens)10:50
bustacapany information about the wiki move?10:50
bustacapthere has been a spec put forward about it..10:51
manickaI believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't there to clarify the issues10:52
bustacapyeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than discussing it at CC meetings..10:52
manickadiscussion went round in circles a bit10:52
bustacapit might even be in Launchpad10:52
bustacapok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki10:53
bustacapbit of a shame mdke isn't here10:53
bustacapbut manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the changes to UserDocumentation??10:53
manickaI like the concise nature of his suggestions10:54
bustacapyeah, it is a good cleanup10:54
manickathe frontpage needs to be as simple as possible10:54
bustacapI can see where he is coming from with his objections to my "Misc" series of pages10:55
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manickayes10:55
bustacapalbeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst UserDocBeta was being built10:55
manickathe problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the wiki10:56
bustacapyeah, I am getting that feeling as well10:56
bustacapI find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the Wiki10:57
manickasuch a large restructure needs a concerted effort10:57
robotgeektrue10:57
manickaa few people can't pull it off on their own10:57
bustacapfrom a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki fits right in with looking for doco on the net10:58
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manickaagreed10:58
=== robotgeek is still trying to understand the issues :(
bustacapfor sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly10:58
manickayes10:59
bustacapif there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported (in ideals) by the Doc-Team10:59
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bustacapI don't want to be working on a project that the majority of the Doc-Team turn there noses up at..11:00
manickayes, agreed11:00
bustacapthat's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the issue..11:00
manickaso our first gioal must be approval of the idea11:00
manickathe beta I mean11:00
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bustacaprobotgeek, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good introduction to the matter11:00
robotgeekbustacap: reading it now11:00
bustacapwell I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has gone and suggested his model11:01
bustacapthe whole subindexing - however - is not dead11:01
manickaI was thinking of the long term model11:01
bustacapyeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model if everything was ready in the background..11:02
manickathere's no point putting a lot of effort into a background model if it won't fly in the long run11:03
bustacapwith his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted11:03
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bustacapI think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across all subject areas11:04
bustacapand whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer11:05
robotgeekbustacap: +111:05
bustacapthere needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu and the apps it has11:05
manickayes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting forum people to contribute11:05
bustacapabsolutely11:06
robotgeekbustacap: for example like the KQuickguide? 11:06
manickaI'd just like to see something happen11:06
bustacapmanicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment drive for people from the forums11:06
bustacapmanicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue driving the issue11:07
manickaok11:07
bustacapthe problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said - nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what I have proposed11:08
manickait's difficult to know either way11:08
robotgeekbustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff11:08
manickaI look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff11:09
manickathe udsf issues have worn me out somewhat11:09
bustacaprobotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along with the video players etc... basically look for help in one subject area and be enli11:11
bustacapghtened in so many more :)11:11
bustacapmanicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit there..11:11
manickano, agreed11:11
robotgeekbustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working on WifiDocs  converted the wireless pages that ways11:12
bustacapand as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there..11:12
bustacapyeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and going..11:13
manickayes, a suitable framework is the key...11:13
bustacapbasically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people involved in the project with the same committment as you and I to really get this off the ground..11:13
bustacapand as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time to contribute to fixing up the Wiki11:14
manickahmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the forums are working on 'other' projects11:14
manickabut you never know11:15
bustacapyeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the Doc-Team initially11:15
robotgeeki may have time, but i can't commit right now11:15
manickaso we may see some activity in a few weeks11:15
robotgeekcommit time, i mean11:15
robotgeekbtw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item11:16
bustacaprobotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the proposals put forward and I include you in any high level emails/discussions that may arise over the project..11:16
bustacaprobotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and close off the meeting11:17
robotgeekbustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and get in touch with you?11:17
bustacapsure, drop me an email (check private message)11:17
bustacapbasically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and I will slowly change the beta to suit11:18
manickaok11:19
bustacapalso, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and move it across to UserDocumentationDraft11:19
manickagreat11:19
bustacaponce approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the current UserDocumentation11:19
bustacapand! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball rolling..11:20
manickasounds like a plan11:21
bustacapexcellent11:21
robotgeek:)11:21
bustacapwell I think that concludes today's meeting..11:21
robotgeekholdon11:21
=== bustacap bangs a gavel :D
bustacapsorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of water and heading to bed - big night last night11:22
robotgeekLaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml headers . Riddell removed them for something related to xincludes11:22
bustacapnight/morning all..11:23
robotgeekbustacap: sure, later11:23
robotgeekanyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i won't be making a change right now11:23
robotgeekalrite, later all11:23
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