[10:01] <LaserJock> meeting?
[10:02] <terrex> it should be already started :s
[10:02] <LaserJock> ok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?
[10:04] <manicka> I'm here
[10:05] <LaserJock> hmm, doesn't look promising
[10:05] <manicka> no
[10:06] <robotgeek> i'm here too 
[10:10] <LaserJock> hmm, well if naaman isn't here...
[10:10] <manicka> there's not much to talk about...
[10:14] <LaserJock> hmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting?
[10:16] <bustacap> hello all, is the doc meeting on now?
[10:16] <manicka> hi
[10:16] <bustacap> oh poo where is mdke??
[10:16] <robotgeek> bustacap: naaman isn't here
[10:16] <manicka> lol
[10:16] <bustacap> haha naaman is bustacap :D
[10:17] <robotgeek> bustacap: oh, my bad. lol
[10:17] <bustacap> hehe
[10:17] <LaserJock> hmm, ok so not many people here then
[10:18] <bustacap> I just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh shit, it's the Doc Team meeting"
[10:18] <jjesse> not around for much longer
[10:18] <bustacap> well, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I will convene it...
[10:19] <bustacap> I am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent drinking session straight after work ;) )
[10:20] <bustacap> OK onto the meeting..
[10:20] <LaserJock> well, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get some agenda items for next time
[10:20] <bustacap> we will just put issues to the next meeting without the people here to represent them
[10:20] <bustacap> but onto the first one..
[10:21] <bustacap> using common files in the DocBook documents
[10:21] <bustacap> does anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up about this..
[10:21] <LaserJock> I think a far amount of docs are using the common preface
[10:22] <bustacap> I think this issue has been brought up before at a previous meeting..
[10:22] <robotgeek> the Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly
[10:22] <manicka> there's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and kubuntu dg's
[10:22] <bustacap> is this the same as the ubuntu .xml files?
[10:23] <robotgeek> manicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest
[10:23] <bustacap> manicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to all of the ubuntu documentation..
[10:23] <manicka> ah, ok
[10:25] <robotgeek> well, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being here
[10:25] <bustacap> well to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a little different in the guides
[10:26] <bustacap> but - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same
[10:26] <bustacap> it should point to the same web-help resources..
[10:26] <LaserJock> what mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common preface
[10:26] <LaserJock> and perhaps other common elements
[10:26] <robotgeek> bustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different
[10:26] <bustacap> for the getting help??
[10:27] <robotgeek> bustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users
[10:27] <bustacap> well I think that the getting-help should encompass all versions of ubuntu
[10:27] <jjesse> and the different channels
[10:27] <bustacap> it should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here; for help with Kubuntu -> go here..
[10:28] <jjesse> i don't think there is enough commonality to get common files
[10:28] <robotgeek> jjesse: +1
[10:28] <bustacap> it is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the USG
[10:28] <jjesse> USG == Ubuntu Server Guide?
[10:28] <robotgeek> bustacap: then the KDG takes over :)
[10:28] <bustacap> so there should be help resources on where to go as well..
[10:29] <bustacap> ok - fair call..
[10:29] <robotgeek> bustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is removed now
[10:29] <bustacap> ooh sorry ;)
[10:29] <bustacap> I am out of the loop :)
[10:29] <jjesse> to make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide 
[10:29] <bustacap> yeah..
[10:29] <robotgeek> bustacap: i was too, until yesterday :)
[10:30] <LaserJock> ok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about commonality so we can just change things once
[10:30] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file
[10:31] <LaserJock> right, but we talked about a common preface for example
[10:31] <bustacap> oh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing..
[10:31] <bustacap> it is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about it..
[10:31] <bustacap> moving on - next item..
[10:31] <LaserJock> but I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit so it might not be worth discussing in length
[10:32] <robotgeek> LaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is
[10:32] <robotgeek> i copied KDG's preface from UDG
[10:32] <bustacap> WikiCleanupProposal
[10:32] <bustacap> manicka are you in on this?
[10:32] <jjesse> i would argue for common files where they make sense... for example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same preface if they have a preface
[10:32] <LaserJock> jjesse: exactly
[10:33] <bustacap> for sure jjesse 
[10:33] <LaserJock> jjesse: that was the point
[10:33] <jjesse> sorry working so only paying half attention
[10:33] <manicka> I'm prepared to help where i can
[10:33] <bustacap> sure..
[10:33] <robotgeek> jjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess
[10:33] <bustacap> it should already be implemented for same distro docs..
[10:34] <LaserJock> bustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though
[10:34] <bustacap> LaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to correct
[10:35] <robotgeek> bustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's the same for the rest too
[10:35] <LaserJock> right, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-)
[10:35] <bustacap> we can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to make them compatible in the future either..
[10:36] <robotgeek> bustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml is not
[10:36] <LaserJock> ?
[10:36] <bustacap> there isn't too much to be gained by making them the same document..
[10:36] <bustacap> well preface.xml could contain more distro-specific information..
[10:36] <robotgeek> it would make sense for a common preface.xml across both ubuntu and kubuntu
[10:37] <bustacap> iirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu
[10:37] <robotgeek> bustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and how to interpret it. 
[10:37] <LaserJock> the preface contents are just a " these are the conventions, etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent...
[10:37] <bustacap> oh ok..
[10:38] <bustacap> well that could be the same then..
[10:38] <robotgeek> and getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents, and all kubuntu docs
[10:38] <LaserJock> it wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common items we should try to, so that we have consistency and eliminate redundancy
[10:39] <robotgeek> true, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and keep moving :)
[10:39] <bustacap> well include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both then..
[10:39] <bustacap> yeah..
[10:39] <bustacap> it will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are looking for help in the UDG as well..
[10:40] <LaserJock> bustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral
[10:40] <bustacap> ok - well make that common across all distros..
[10:40] <robotgeek> LaserJock: maybe not
[10:41] <robotgeek> i have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal
[10:41] <bustacap> in preface??
[10:41] <LaserJock> you guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro specific that I know of
[10:41] <robotgeek> To start a Terminal  session, select: Konsole  from the desktop menu system.
[10:41] <robotgeek> maybe i should just rephrase that, lol
[10:41] <bustacap> I wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml??
[10:42] <robotgeek> that is in preface
[10:42] <LaserJock> no it isn't
[10:42] <bustacap> why would command-line operations be in a Preface??
[10:42] <LaserJock> robotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface
[10:42] <robotgeek> okay, atlease in the kdg preface :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html
[10:43] <LaserJock> robotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface!
[10:43] <robotgeek> okay, i think need to change it then
[10:43] <robotgeek> :)
[10:43] <bustacap> well that line could be easily stripped then..
[10:43] <bustacap> it is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the Conventions section..
[10:43] <LaserJock> arrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be using that is distro neutral
[10:44] <LaserJock> you shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory
[10:44] <robotgeek> okay, fine. will make the change
[10:45] <bustacap> I think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut -> move on to making both files common across all documentation
[10:45] <LaserJock> do you guys see it? in common/C/
[10:45] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now
[10:46] <bustacap> alright - moving on to the next item..
[10:46] <bustacap> WikiCleanupProposal
[10:47] <bustacap> at the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well
[10:48] <bustacap> I might move through a couple of points in it and where it is at..
[10:48] <manicka> feedback on the list has been very productive
[10:48] <bustacap> the Wiki Move..
[10:50] <bustacap> there may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the CategoryDocumentation before the wiki move
[10:50] <bustacap> other than that - I cannot see any problems with the impending wiki move (whenever that happens)
[10:50] <bustacap> any information about the wiki move?
[10:51] <bustacap> there has been a spec put forward about it..
[10:52] <manicka> I believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't there to clarify the issues
[10:52] <bustacap> yeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than discussing it at CC meetings..
[10:52] <manicka> discussion went round in circles a bit
[10:52] <bustacap> it might even be in Launchpad
[10:53] <bustacap> ok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki
[10:53] <bustacap> bit of a shame mdke isn't here
[10:53] <bustacap> but manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the changes to UserDocumentation??
[10:54] <manicka> I like the concise nature of his suggestions
[10:54] <bustacap> yeah, it is a good cleanup
[10:54] <manicka> the frontpage needs to be as simple as possible
[10:55] <bustacap> I can see where he is coming from with his objections to my "Misc" series of pages
[10:55] <manicka> yes
[10:55] <bustacap> albeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst UserDocBeta was being built
[10:56] <manicka> the problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the wiki
[10:56] <bustacap> yeah, I am getting that feeling as well
[10:57] <bustacap> I find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the Wiki
[10:57] <manicka> such a large restructure needs a concerted effort
[10:57] <robotgeek> true
[10:57] <manicka> a few people can't pull it off on their own
[10:58] <bustacap> from a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki fits right in with looking for doco on the net
[10:58] <manicka> agreed
[10:58] <bustacap> for sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly
[10:59] <manicka> yes
[10:59] <bustacap> if there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported (in ideals) by the Doc-Team
[11:00] <bustacap> I don't want to be working on a project that the majority of the Doc-Team turn there noses up at..
[11:00] <manicka> yes, agreed
[11:00] <bustacap> that's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the issue..
[11:00] <manicka> so our first gioal must be approval of the idea
[11:00] <manicka> the beta I mean
[11:00] <bustacap> robotgeek, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good introduction to the matter
[11:00] <robotgeek> bustacap: reading it now
[11:01] <bustacap> well I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has gone and suggested his model
[11:01] <bustacap> the whole subindexing - however - is not dead
[11:01] <manicka> I was thinking of the long term model
[11:02] <bustacap> yeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model if everything was ready in the background..
[11:03] <manicka> there's no point putting a lot of effort into a background model if it won't fly in the long run
[11:03] <bustacap> with his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted
[11:04] <bustacap> I think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across all subject areas
[11:05] <bustacap> and whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer
[11:05] <robotgeek> bustacap: +1
[11:05] <bustacap> there needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu and the apps it has
[11:05] <manicka> yes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting forum people to contribute
[11:06] <bustacap> absolutely
[11:06] <robotgeek> bustacap: for example like the KQuickguide? 
[11:06] <manicka> I'd just like to see something happen
[11:06] <bustacap> manicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment drive for people from the forums
[11:07] <bustacap> manicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue driving the issue
[11:07] <manicka> ok
[11:08] <bustacap> the problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said - nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what I have proposed
[11:08] <manicka> it's difficult to know either way
[11:08] <robotgeek> bustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff
[11:09] <manicka> I look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff
[11:09] <manicka> the udsf issues have worn me out somewhat
[11:11] <bustacap> robotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along with the video players etc... basically look for help in one subject area and be enli
[11:11] <bustacap> ghtened in so many more :)
[11:11] <bustacap> manicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit there..
[11:11] <manicka> no, agreed
[11:12] <robotgeek> bustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working on WifiDocs  converted the wireless pages that ways
[11:12] <bustacap> and as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there..
[11:13] <bustacap> yeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and going..
[11:13] <manicka> yes, a suitable framework is the key...
[11:13] <bustacap> basically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people involved in the project with the same committment as you and I to really get this off the ground..
[11:14] <bustacap> and as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time to contribute to fixing up the Wiki
[11:14] <manicka> hmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the forums are working on 'other' projects
[11:15] <manicka> but you never know
[11:15] <bustacap> yeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the Doc-Team initially
[11:15] <robotgeek> i may have time, but i can't commit right now
[11:15] <manicka> so we may see some activity in a few weeks
[11:15] <robotgeek> commit time, i mean
[11:16] <robotgeek> btw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item
[11:16] <bustacap> robotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the proposals put forward and I include you in any high level emails/discussions that may arise over the project..
[11:17] <bustacap> robotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and close off the meeting
[11:17] <robotgeek> bustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and get in touch with you?
[11:17] <bustacap> sure, drop me an email (check private message)
[11:18] <bustacap> basically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and I will slowly change the beta to suit
[11:19] <manicka> ok
[11:19] <bustacap> also, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and move it across to UserDocumentationDraft
[11:19] <manicka> great
[11:19] <bustacap> once approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the current UserDocumentation
[11:20] <bustacap> and! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball rolling..
[11:21] <manicka> sounds like a plan
[11:21] <bustacap> excellent
[11:21] <robotgeek> :)
[11:21] <bustacap> well I think that concludes today's meeting..
[11:21] <robotgeek> holdon
[11:22] <bustacap> sorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of water and heading to bed - big night last night
[11:22] <robotgeek> LaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml headers . Riddell removed them for something related to xincludes
[11:23] <bustacap> night/morning all..
[11:23] <robotgeek> bustacap: sure, later
[11:23] <robotgeek> anyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i won't be making a change right now
[11:23] <robotgeek> alrite, later all