=== slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === crisen [n=crisen@spank.terdmonk.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === infinity [n=adconrad@loki.0c3.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === shadymike [n=michael@S0106000c418b29d3.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === shadymike [n=michael@S0106000c418b29d3.cg.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === jjross [n=jim@12.168.230.180] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fabbione [i=fabbione@gordian.fabbione.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dieffel [n=dieffel@50A2FAEA.flatrate.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dieffel [n=dieffel@50A2FAEA.flatrate.dk] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Mar 21:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 7 Mar 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Mar 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Mar 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Mar 20:00 UTC: Kubuntu === dieman [n=dieman@3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@p54A6623D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolson [n=dana@d235-185-252.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolson is now known as dolzzzon === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B2D71.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === netzmeister [n=netzmeis@p549F1ADC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lucas__ [n=lucas@213.166.213.90] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolzzzon is now known as dolson === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolson is now known as dolzzzon === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra_ibook [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko__ [n=doko@dslb-084-059-112-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ealden [n=ealden@203.76.213.190] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg@125.212.126.144] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i577B30ED.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying-ibook [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.25] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lathiat [i=lathiat@ubuntu/member/pdpc.basic.lathiat] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === LinuxJones [n=willy@hlfxns01bbh-142177211006.ns.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === netzmeister [n=netzmeis@p549F9F69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [n=JaneW@dsl-165-206-144.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolzzzon is now known as dolson === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === LinuxJones [n=willy@hlfxns01bbh-142177211006.ns.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robotgeek [i=venkat@ubuntu/member/robotgeek] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dolson [n=dana@d235-185-252.home1.cgocable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["leaving..] === jarufe [n=jarufe@pc-155-140-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jarufe [n=jarufe@pc-155-140-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bye..] === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === LaserJock [n=laserjoc@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === MarioMeyer_ [n=meyer@ubuntu/member/mariomeyer] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:01] meeting? === netzmeister [n=netzmeis@p549F9F69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:02] it should be already started :s [10:02] ok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting? [10:04] I'm here [10:05] hmm, doesn't look promising [10:05] no [10:06] i'm here too === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:10] hmm, well if naaman isn't here... [10:10] there's not much to talk about... [10:14] hmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting? === bustacap [n=bustacap@ubuntu/member/bustacap] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:16] hello all, is the doc meeting on now? [10:16] hi [10:16] oh poo where is mdke?? [10:16] bustacap: naaman isn't here [10:16] lol [10:16] haha naaman is bustacap :D [10:17] bustacap: oh, my bad. lol [10:17] hehe === robotgeek smacks himself [10:17] hmm, ok so not many people here then [10:18] I just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh shit, it's the Doc Team meeting" === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:18] not around for much longer [10:18] well, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I will convene it... === bustacap looks at the MeetingAgenda [10:19] I am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent drinking session straight after work ;) ) [10:20] OK onto the meeting.. [10:20] well, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get some agenda items for next time [10:20] we will just put issues to the next meeting without the people here to represent them [10:20] but onto the first one.. [10:21] using common files in the DocBook documents [10:21] does anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up about this.. [10:21] I think a far amount of docs are using the common preface [10:22] I think this issue has been brought up before at a previous meeting.. [10:22] the Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly [10:22] there's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and kubuntu dg's [10:22] is this the same as the ubuntu .xml files? [10:23] manicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest [10:23] manicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to all of the ubuntu documentation.. [10:23] ah, ok [10:25] well, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being here [10:25] well to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a little different in the guides [10:26] but - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same [10:26] it should point to the same web-help resources.. [10:26] what mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common preface [10:26] and perhaps other common elements [10:26] bustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different [10:26] for the getting help?? [10:27] bustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users [10:27] well I think that the getting-help should encompass all versions of ubuntu [10:27] and the different channels [10:27] it should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here; for help with Kubuntu -> go here.. [10:28] i don't think there is enough commonality to get common files [10:28] jjesse: +1 [10:28] it is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the USG [10:28] USG == Ubuntu Server Guide? [10:28] bustacap: then the KDG takes over :) [10:28] so there should be help resources on where to go as well.. [10:29] ok - fair call.. [10:29] bustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is removed now [10:29] ooh sorry ;) [10:29] I am out of the loop :) [10:29] to make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide [10:29] yeah.. [10:29] bustacap: i was too, until yesterday :) [10:30] ok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about commonality so we can just change things once [10:30] LaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file [10:31] right, but we talked about a common preface for example [10:31] oh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing.. [10:31] it is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about it.. [10:31] moving on - next item.. [10:31] but I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit so it might not be worth discussing in length [10:32] LaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is [10:32] i copied KDG's preface from UDG [10:32] WikiCleanupProposal [10:32] manicka are you in on this? [10:32] i would argue for common files where they make sense... for example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same preface if they have a preface [10:32] jjesse: exactly [10:33] for sure jjesse [10:33] jjesse: that was the point [10:33] sorry working so only paying half attention [10:33] I'm prepared to help where i can [10:33] sure.. [10:33] jjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess [10:33] it should already be implemented for same distro docs.. [10:34] bustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though [10:34] LaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to correct [10:35] bustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's the same for the rest too [10:35] right, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-) [10:35] we can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to make them compatible in the future either.. [10:36] bustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml is not [10:36] ? [10:36] there isn't too much to be gained by making them the same document.. [10:36] well preface.xml could contain more distro-specific information.. [10:36] it would make sense for a common preface.xml across both ubuntu and kubuntu [10:37] iirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu [10:37] bustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and how to interpret it. [10:37] the preface contents are just a " these are the conventions, etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent... [10:37] oh ok.. [10:38] well that could be the same then.. [10:38] and getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents, and all kubuntu docs [10:38] it wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common items we should try to, so that we have consistency and eliminate redundancy [10:39] true, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and keep moving :) [10:39] well include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both then.. [10:39] yeah.. [10:39] it will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are looking for help in the UDG as well.. [10:40] bustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral [10:40] ok - well make that common across all distros.. [10:40] LaserJock: maybe not [10:41] i have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal [10:41] in preface?? [10:41] you guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro specific that I know of [10:41] To start a Terminal session, select: Konsole from the desktop menu system. [10:41] maybe i should just rephrase that, lol [10:41] I wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml?? [10:42] that is in preface [10:42] no it isn't [10:42] why would command-line operations be in a Preface?? [10:42] robotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface [10:42] okay, atlease in the kdg preface :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html [10:43] robotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface! [10:43] okay, i think need to change it then [10:43] :) [10:43] well that line could be easily stripped then.. [10:43] it is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the Conventions section.. [10:43] arrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be using that is distro neutral [10:44] you shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory [10:44] okay, fine. will make the change [10:45] I think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut -> move on to making both files common across all documentation [10:45] do you guys see it? in common/C/ [10:45] LaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now [10:46] alright - moving on to the next item.. [10:46] WikiCleanupProposal [10:47] at the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well [10:48] I might move through a couple of points in it and where it is at.. [10:48] feedback on the list has been very productive [10:48] the Wiki Move.. [10:50] there may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the CategoryDocumentation before the wiki move [10:50] other than that - I cannot see any problems with the impending wiki move (whenever that happens) [10:50] any information about the wiki move? [10:51] there has been a spec put forward about it.. [10:52] I believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't there to clarify the issues [10:52] yeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than discussing it at CC meetings.. [10:52] discussion went round in circles a bit [10:52] it might even be in Launchpad [10:53] ok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki [10:53] bit of a shame mdke isn't here [10:53] but manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the changes to UserDocumentation?? [10:54] I like the concise nature of his suggestions [10:54] yeah, it is a good cleanup [10:54] the frontpage needs to be as simple as possible [10:55] I can see where he is coming from with his objections to my "Misc" series of pages === hybrid [n=hybrid@dpc6745217221.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:55] yes [10:55] albeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst UserDocBeta was being built [10:56] the problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the wiki [10:56] yeah, I am getting that feeling as well [10:57] I find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the Wiki [10:57] such a large restructure needs a concerted effort [10:57] true [10:57] a few people can't pull it off on their own [10:58] from a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki fits right in with looking for doco on the net === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:58] agreed === robotgeek is still trying to understand the issues :( [10:58] for sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly [10:59] yes [10:59] if there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported (in ideals) by the Doc-Team === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:00] I don't want to be working on a project that the majority of the Doc-Team turn there noses up at.. [11:00] yes, agreed [11:00] that's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the issue.. [11:00] so our first gioal must be approval of the idea [11:00] the beta I mean === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:00] robotgeek, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good introduction to the matter [11:00] bustacap: reading it now [11:01] well I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has gone and suggested his model [11:01] the whole subindexing - however - is not dead [11:01] I was thinking of the long term model [11:02] yeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model if everything was ready in the background.. [11:03] there's no point putting a lot of effort into a background model if it won't fly in the long run [11:03] with his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted === Burgwork [n=corey@d66-183-174-128.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [11:04] I think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across all subject areas [11:05] and whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer [11:05] bustacap: +1 [11:05] there needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu and the apps it has [11:05] yes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting forum people to contribute [11:06] absolutely [11:06] bustacap: for example like the KQuickguide? [11:06] I'd just like to see something happen [11:06] manicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment drive for people from the forums [11:07] manicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue driving the issue [11:07] ok [11:08] the problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said - nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what I have proposed [11:08] it's difficult to know either way [11:08] bustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff [11:09] I look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff [11:09] the udsf issues have worn me out somewhat [11:11] robotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along with the video players etc... basically look for help in one subject area and be enli [11:11] ghtened in so many more :) [11:11] manicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit there.. [11:11] no, agreed [11:12] bustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working on WifiDocs converted the wireless pages that ways [11:12] and as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there.. [11:13] yeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and going.. [11:13] yes, a suitable framework is the key... [11:13] basically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people involved in the project with the same committment as you and I to really get this off the ground.. [11:14] and as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time to contribute to fixing up the Wiki [11:14] hmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the forums are working on 'other' projects [11:15] but you never know [11:15] yeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the Doc-Team initially [11:15] i may have time, but i can't commit right now [11:15] so we may see some activity in a few weeks [11:15] commit time, i mean [11:16] btw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item [11:16] robotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the proposals put forward and I include you in any high level emails/discussions that may arise over the project.. [11:17] robotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and close off the meeting [11:17] bustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and get in touch with you? [11:17] sure, drop me an email (check private message) [11:18] basically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and I will slowly change the beta to suit [11:19] ok [11:19] also, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and move it across to UserDocumentationDraft [11:19] great [11:19] once approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the current UserDocumentation [11:20] and! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball rolling.. [11:21] sounds like a plan [11:21] excellent [11:21] :) [11:21] well I think that concludes today's meeting.. [11:21] holdon === bustacap bangs a gavel :D [11:22] sorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of water and heading to bed - big night last night [11:22] LaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml headers . Riddell removed them for something related to xincludes [11:23] night/morning all.. [11:23] bustacap: sure, later [11:23] anyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i won't be making a change right now [11:23] alrite, later all === robotgeek [i=venkat@ubuntu/member/robotgeek] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Burgwork [n=corey@d66-183-174-128.bchsia.telus.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === manicka [n=manicka@ubuntu/member/manicka] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === MarioMeyer_ is now known as MarioMeyer === LinuxJones [n=willy@hlfxns01bbh-142177211006.ns.aliant.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"]