/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/03/19/#ubuntu-doc.txt

Burgworkompaul, you still working on the FAQ?12:11
Burgworkompaul, oh, wait, did I already move it? (am confused)12:11
ompaulI am not, it is not moved :)12:11
Burgworkok, hmm12:11
ompaulafter I stopped madpilot gave it a once over fixed a couple of bits and I have stayed away from it since12:12
ompaulnot sure if I can add more value12:12
Burgworkok, I should be able to find time to look at it this week12:12
ompaulit is not as meandering at this stage12:13
ompaulbut where to next :-)12:14
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LaserJockhi theCore 01:32
theCorehi LaserJock01:33
theCoreLaserJock: did you work on the guide?01:46
theCores/k/ked/01:47
LaserJocktheCore: yeah, a bit01:49
LaserJockI think doc.ubuntu.com has what I have more or less01:49
theCoreI didn't work on the guide, but instead on something closely related to it: packaging01:51
LaserJockcool01:52
theCoreI trying to make a package that would configure Postfix and Fetchmail for Gmail. I'm kinda going nowhere but at least I'm trying01:54
theCoredoes ubuntu is down?01:56
theCore*.ubuntu.com01:56
LaserJockcould be. there was an email that it was going down for a while. I can't remember when though.02:00
theCorenice it works!02:24
theCore(not the package but the config)02:24
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robotgeeki can't belive this. http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=821554&postcount=802:38
robotgeekin eed to post to clarify02:38
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theCoremdke_: ping03:11
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robotgeektheCore: hmm, i have configured fetchmail with gmail, also with postfix04:40
robotgeektheCore: nbsmtp was easier to setup than postfix, however04:41
theCoreI'm still trying to get postfix working with smtp.gmail.com04:41
robotgeektheCore: do you want a link to a howto, i used it almost step by step04:42
theCorerobotgeek: yeah, please04:42
robotgeektheCore: http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/postfix_tutorial.html04:42
theCoreLOL04:43
theCoresame as mine04:43
robotgeekyeah, install the package ca-certificates to reduce pain and suffering04:43
theCorerobotgeek: can't send email though04:43
theCorerobotgeek: are you able to ?04:44
robotgeektheCore: i just use nbsmtp now. it is much easier to get working04:44
robotgeekare you using port 587?04:45
theCoreno 99504:45
robotgeektheCore: 995 is for fetching, not sending04:48
robotgeekfor pop, basically04:48
theCorerobotgeek: how do you deal with the mailing list ?04:48
robotgeektheCore: i setup procmail, i don't use it now, however04:49
robotgeekhttp://robotgeek.org/wiki/Main/PerfectEmailSetup . i am working on it :)04:49
theCorethanks for the tips04:51
theCorerobotgeek: I will probably try to improve it04:52
robotgeektheCore: okay, let me give you a edit password then :)04:53
theCoreoh :)04:53
theCorerobotgeek: do you have my email ?04:54
robotgeektheCore: i /noticed you, check your server window04:54
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theCoreoh I see (boy I'm still IRC noob;)04:56
robotgeektheCore: we all are, when we start out. we learn :)04:56
robotgeekhey bhuvan 04:56
bhuvanhello robotgeek04:59
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robotgeekmdke_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcRules says "bad solutions such as using install-css.sh from libdvdread" (seveas said that). We however suggest that method for getting dvds to work. we should investigate  05:18
LaserJockrobotgeek: where?05:30
robotgeekhelping: be helpful05:31
LaserJockbut what doc do we recommend that?05:33
robotgeekLaserJock: in both the desktop guides05:33
robotgeekvideo, dvd section05:34
LaserJockI see it now05:34
LaserJockhmm, so maybe we should ask what the "correct" method is05:35
robotgeekyeah, i want to grab hold of seveas, he said that it was broken in dapper or something to that effect long time ago05:36
Madpilotrobotgeek, Seveas is generally on early morning his time, about 0300 or so your time (~0100 here, Pacific Standard)05:39
robotgeekMadpilot: maybe i'll catch him on my way out05:40
Madpilotyou can always /memo him and ask him to email you or the docteam list05:40
robotgeekyeah, maybe i can do that too05:41
MadpilotCould someone please sanity-check my lastest updates to UDG, the "getting to #ubuntu w/ XChat-Gnome" part?05:44
LaserJockI pinged him in -devel but I havn't got an answer05:44
MadpilotI'm not sure it's as clear as it could be, and I"m not in Dapper right now...05:44
Madpilotit's only about 5am in .nl right now05:44
LaserJockMadpilot: any reason to do XChat-Gnome over Xchat?05:44
MadpilotLaserJock, in Dapper XChat has been pushed into Universe, X-G is now in Main05:45
Madpilotfrankly, I really dislike X-G, but it's there... :P05:45
LaserJockMadpilot: hmm, ok. I thought they were both in Main05:45
MadpilotXChat is in Main in Breezy, but it's not for Dapper05:45
LaserJockI see, well that at least makes sense.05:47
MadpilotI think I offended one of XChat-Gnome's developers over the weekend, by being a bit too blunt about that app's shortcomings... https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/3471505:48
theCoreviva Irssi ...05:51
Madpilotbleh. XChat is a UI disaster, but IMO so is XChat-Gnome, in the opposite direction...05:51
Madpilotit's a major over-reaction to XChat's let's-let-it-all-hang-out uber-configurability05:52
LaserJockmy gosh, they obviously haven't used any KDE apps05:53
LaserJockXChat isn't all that configurable05:53
Madpilotby current Gnome standards I guess it is :P05:55
MadpilotI usually like the "sane defaults" theory of Gnome, but with XChat-Gnome they've killed all the configurability without providing sane defaults...05:55
LaserJockyeah, I really have a hard time with Gnome standards. I'm not sure if I agree with it philosophically05:56
MadpilotMost of the time it works. Epiphany, SoundJuicer, Gnome-App-Install - they're all brilliant. The XChat-Gnome folks have just gone a bit overboard, I think.06:00
LaserJockto me it really just seems dumbed down. I mean they usually have pretty good defaults (better than KDE to me) but once you try to think outside their box ...06:02
MadpilotKDE always strikes me as too much an XP-clone - which I know is unfair, but that's how it feels & looks to me06:05
LaserJockyeah, in some ways it does but you can configure it to be whatever you want. that is what I like about it06:06
LaserJockbut I do like the general look-n-feel of gnome06:06
LaserJockbut I don't like most Gnome apps06:06
LaserJockbecause once I need to configure them I find I can't06:07
LaserJockthere is no control06:07
LaserJockanyway, time for bed06:07
LaserJockcya guys06:07
Madpilotlater06:07
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MadpilotOK, enough commits from me for one evening :P06:18
Madpilothi highvoltage 06:18
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nate_ok ok, maybe someone here can help, anyone know of any good docs for ubuntu's implementation of d-i and specifically the setup of preseed files?06:22
robotgeekMadpilot: that is so unfair, kde is highly configurable. xp if you want xp, os x if you want os x06:25
Madpilotrobotgeek, I didn't say it was a fair impression of KDE, but it's always been mine :P06:27
robotgeekMadpilot: i thought so to intially, but now i am pretty impressed by how much i actually do with the gui, without loss of configurability06:28
robotgeeks/to/too06:28
theCoreMar 14 00:39:54 localhost postfix/smtp[13181] : CC8712D02BC: to=<avassalotti@gmail.com>, relay=none, delay=31, status=deferred (connect to smtp.gmail.com[72.14.205.109] : Connection timed out)06:42
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Madpilothi jsgotangco 07:16
jsgotangcohey07:16
Madpilotdsas, you patch got committed w/ my commits a few hours ago07:16
dsasthanks madpilot07:16
Madpilotdsas, np, I was planning exactly that change already, you saved me some work07:17
dsasThat's good, it occured to me it should be done on the way to work yesterday for some bizarre reason.07:18
Madpilotyeah, I spent last night playing with a Flight5 LiveCD and making notes for the UDG - having to install XChat-gnome was one of them07:20
dsaslooking at things you've used Xchat-Gnome and the other use is Xchat-GNOME, shouldn't they be the same? Yours looks nicer but the other way is how it's done in the menus.07:22
MadpilotGnome in all CAPS?07:22
Madpilothadn't noticed07:22
Madpilotah, so it is, it's XChat-GNOME in Breezy's Add Apps too - I'll fix that later, I guess07:23
dsassome applications have the information on starting them in the file, others are defined in ubuntu/menus/C/, should i move all apps into ubuntu/menus/C ?07:24
Madpilotif you really want to - I've been doing the new ones I add, but leaving most of the rest07:26
dsashmm, ok. I didn't know whether or not there was an underlying reason which meant it was something we should e07:28
dsaswhoops, 'something we should be doing.'07:28
robotgeekdsas: thanks for the reminder :)07:29
dsasrobotgeek: no problem, tbh I'd not looked at the kubuntu docs, so I don't know whether or not the 'problem' exists there.07:30
Madpilotas far as I can see, it's useful for two reasons: for the apps that get mentioned repeatedly (Firefox, say) and for the stuff that's likely to change before Dapper release07:30
robotgeekdsas: well, most of the stuff applies to kdg too :)07:31
dsasMadpilot: oh, ok. Not a priority then.07:31
dsasrobotgeek: oh ok, I've not looked at them tbh. I've been meaning to try kubuntu since the breezy released and still haven't got round to it :)07:32
robotgeekdsas: get it now :) 07:32
dsasrobotgeek: maybe tonight, my laptop doesn't have a cd drive. I've not saw kde for about 3 years I think :)07:33
robotgeekdsas: well, i moved over to kubuntu from ubuntu. it si very nice. :)07:34
dsasrobotgeek: hmm, I struggle to imagine not using gnome now, I was a kde fan years ago but I struggle to imagine not using gnome now.07:39
dsaswow, it's early. I'm repeating myself.07:39
robotgeekdsas: i mostly use cli, but all the apps i use are kde. amarok/k3b/akregator07:39
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Madpilotrobitaille, you staying up for the community meeting, or catching the 2nd one tomorrow?08:32
robitailleI'm going to bed soon...  :)08:32
Madpilotlikewise, I don't work Tues. morning so I'll join the 2nd meeting @ 1000 our time08:33
robitailleMaybe I'll lurk for the meeting tomorrow.  It's not always obvious to be on IRC from work08:33
Madpilotheh, just be good at swapping desktops or alt+tab :P08:34
robotgeekirssi with grey colors looks like coding :P08:35
robitailleI can't use irc directly from work.  So I ssh into my home machine to do it.  But sometimes the kids are in Windows to play games, thus I lose my irc access :)08:36
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robotgeekrobitaille: install ssh server on windows also?08:36
robitailleBurgundavia:  I use Linux at work...government firewall blog IRC and I haven't bothered finding a way around the restriction08:36
robitailles/blog/block08:37
MadpilotBurgundavia, you staying up or going to the mtg from work?08:37
Burgundaviarobitaille: you should be able to tunnel irc through port 80, but I never got it to work when I worked for microservew08:37
BurgundaviaI will go to the meeting from work08:37
robotgeeki think it's a forgone conclusion, the meeting?08:38
Burgundaviathere are influential people on both sides08:38
Madpilotit should be interesting, regardless. Anyway, my cold virus and I need sleep. Later, all08:38
robotgeeklater08:38
BurgundaviaI have to finish the gnome 2.14 press release08:38
robitailleBurgundavia:  I'm too lazy...I connect to home when I can, or piggyback on the university wireless via the classroom network one room up from my office.  Or I simply read the logs afterward and do actual work at work :)08:40
Burgundaviabah, work08:40
robitaillepays the rent...actually I like spending my days coding in fortran08:42
mdke_robotgeek, how is that a bad solution?08:58
mdke_(dvdcss)08:58
robotgeekmdke_: i don't know, i have to ask seveas08:58
mdke_robotgeek, apart from anything else, it is the recommended debian way, and is on RestrictedFormats08:59
robotgeekmdke_: yes, and it also works08:59
mdke_indeed08:59
mdke_I hate it when these irc people get all arrogant and dismissive :D09:00
robotgeeki was just surprised that ircrules page suggests that it is a bad solution, i have no idea why09:00
robotgeekit might just easier to edit the wiki page, but seveas usually knows what he is talking about :)09:00
mdke_ok09:01
robotgeeki'll grab him today :)09:02
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robotgeekmdke_: ping09:19
mdke_robotgeek, yeah09:20
robotgeekhttp://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/1020809:21
robotgeekmy conversation with seveas in #ubuntu-offtopic , just now09:22
mdke_man09:22
mdke_he is so arrogant09:22
robotgeekheh09:23
mdke_i'm not ditching realplayer09:23
robotgeekanyways, that is the info we need i guess09:23
mdke_no.09:23
mdke_there are two solutions for realplayer, one is to install using real's binary, the other is the package09:23
mdke_the latter is recommended on RestrictedFormats09:23
mdke_and I also prefer dvdcss from the debian source to unofficial packages versions09:24
mdke_if he thinks it is wrong, he can tell us why, and I'll listen09:24
robotgeekyes, but it apparently is going to go away09:24
mdke_robotgeek, from the debian package?09:24
robotgeekyes, that is what he claims09:24
mdke_i'd like to see evidence of that09:24
mdke_anyway, talk later, gtg to work09:24
bustacaphaha I just got back from work09:25
bustacap:D09:25
BurgundaviaI need to sleep09:25
bustacapthe Aussie/Asian SABDFL meeting is due to start in 30 mins..09:26
Burgundavianight all09:28
robotgeeknight Burgundavia 09:28
jsgotangcohmm09:35
jsgotangcomdke_: is the plain text in our FF frontpage bluish???09:36
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mdke_jsgotangco, black10:18
robotgeekmdke_: meeting underway10:18
jsgotangcothey look bluish on my lcd10:19
jsgotangcoprobably because of the size10:19
mdke_could be10:21
mdke_try resizing them10:21
robits amazing how civil it is in there10:21
mdke_robotgeek, got work to do, sorry10:21
robotgeekmdke_: oh okay, stay safe :)10:21
jsgotangcoits still bluish10:21
jsgotangcoheh10:21
jsgotangcoits not as black compared to google..probably the fonts10:22
jsgotangcowe started civil so people just became civil too10:26
robits also amazing that +m hasn't had to be used.. credit to the community I say10:26
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poningruthey need someone in meeting....10:57
poningrunm10:57
jsgotangcobustacap: namaan?10:59
bustacapyep..10:59
bustacap:)10:59
bustacapnaaman.10:59
jsgotangcoplease stop this thread before it becomes a mini flamewar11:02
robotgeekjsgotangco: the one on sounder?11:03
jsgotangcoyes11:03
bustacapwhat thread is that? (URL please)11:03
robjsgotangco, its not a flamewar, I'm just offering my thoughts and someone took it to heart11:04
jsgotangcopoint taken and you have valid arguments and i said "before"11:04
robjust because I'm a member and every other joe bloggs who blogs is not doesn't mean I can't still offer constructive criticism11:05
jsgotangcoi agree on that, i did something like this before, but not on doco11:05
jsgotangcoi think its was for a11y11:05
robI didn't out right say "Ubuntu is crap", I just said that this simple thing should change, and gave reasons why11:06
jsgotangcodo it in en_US next time heh11:06
jsgotangcokidding11:06
robnice pickup11:07
mdke_I have a different definition of "constructive" criticism that doesn't include criticism done in a deliberately provocative and inflammatory way11:12
robits a simple question, the fact that you would get so heated about it suggests there is substance behind it11:13
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robits not like I'm burning flags to get my point across, as was done recently here in aus11:13
mdke_there may or may not be substance behind it11:14
mdke_but implying that Ubuntu doesn't care about documentation is just ridiculous11:14
mdke_you must be able to see that11:14
robso you disagree that the use of Documentation should be encouraged to the fullest extent?11:14
mdke_no11:14
mdke_i disagree that you make wide and unjustified assertions11:15
mdke_when making a simple point11:15
robthe adminstrators of the web site obviously consider documentation important, just none other then the wiki existed when they first created the site11:15
mdke_yes11:15
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robthis legacy link needs to be changed to reflect the documentation project as a whole11:15
mdke_you continue to misunderstand me. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that you make your point in a totally disproportionate and provocative way11:16
robthats the point I'm making, and I beleave its a relevent way of making it11:16
mdke_yes I know11:16
mdke_but you are wrong, it is not a relevant way of making it11:16
robthe question isn't "Ubuntu doesn't care about its docs, so why should we?" the question is "Does ubuntu care about its docs?" and if it does, why does it bury it down three clicks11:17
robquite simply, I'm happy for the administrators of the web site to prove me wrong11:18
mdke_it's not a question at all11:18
mdke_you're saying "the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation"11:18
robno I'm not11:18
mdke_and that defies any logic11:18
robI'm saying "Does the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation?"11:18
mdke_haha11:18
robs/demonstrates/demonstrate11:19
mdke_it's a rhetorical question and you know it, but let's leave it there11:19
robits not a statement, its a question designed to cause discussion and hopefully a solution11:19
mdke_ok, well you've seen mine and corey's point.11:19
robyour putting words into my mouth11:20
mdke_I disagree11:20
robwhat, exactly, is your problem with such a question? 11:21
robnote I said question, not statement11:21
robif you took the time to properly read the whole article you would see infact I say that Ubuntu clearly does care, and that this link should be changed to show the average user that11:22
mdkeputting that question implies that the answer is no. Especially since it is wholly unrelated to the point you are making.11:22
mdkeI've read the article11:22
mdkebut the title is more prominent than the rest of the article11:22
mdkethat's what a title is11:22
robits kind of pointless arguing about the intent and meaning of an article with the person who wrote it, don't you think?11:23
mdkerob, i disagree entirely. the meaning of an article depends on the reader11:23
mdkeit's like saying "Does Ubuntu care about its downloads?" and then making the point that there is no first level download link11:24
mdkeit's a good point, but the question doesn't follow11:24
robre-read the second last paragraph11:24
rob"We all know the opposite is true, but to the new user the Ubuntu web site is currently quite intimidating."11:24
mdkeI've made my point on that11:25
robthe "intent" of the article is clearly written in the last paragraph also11:26
robI've lost count of the amount of times I'm mentioned to users and authors of articles alike that the official docs exist and the response been one of surprise11:28
mdkeyes, that's part of your point on the absence of the link11:33
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robgood night mdke, nice chatting to you :)11:40
mdkegood night11:41
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highvoltagewin 1112:52
nate_hey documentation guys, I have a request for some documentation on creating dummy-packages12:55
nate_i don't know if you take requests ;)12:56
mdkesure we do, especially if they include the text01:00
mdkeif you mail the list with more details, that might be the best idea01:00
nate_ok01:01
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bustacaphey guys - updated UserDocumentation on the Wiki..01:18
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mdkemgalvin, hiya. Is there a special reason you've got screenshots in both ubuntu/images/en and ubuntu/images/C ?03:56
mgalvinmdke: when i went to commit them i looked in both of those dirs... they both had the images so i put them in both places (i was not sure which was actually being used :-/) please feel free to remove what we don't need03:58
mdkemgalvin, ok, I think en shouldn't be there. I'll look into it, cheers04:01
mdkemgalvin, so you're working on some releasenotes in svn?04:04
mgalvinmdke: i started to take a crack at them... jerome, cory and i were talking about them the other day and we decided I would start working on them in svn...04:06
mgalvinwe were also thinking of building both the html and moin markup for it so we could copy/paste it onto the wiki04:06
mgalvinthis is just for the finial release notes04:07
mgalvinthose alpha reviews i have been doing will still be worked on in the wiki04:07
mdkecool04:09
mdkewill you liase with mdz and co on the releasenotes?04:09
mgalvinyup, will do04:10
mdkecool04:10
mdkeare you working on it in docbook xml?04:10
mgalvinyea, following same format and procedure as the previous ones... for now i really just copied breezy-release-notes.xml to dapper-release-notes.xml04:11
jjessethat's how i did it for kubunut release notes if i recall correctly :)04:16
mgalvin:)04:16
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mdkecool04:18
mdkeyou know the website will take html? moin format isn't necessary04:19
jsgotangcohey guys04:19
mgalvineven better04:19
mgalvinhey jsgotangco04:19
mgalvinmdke: i will try that first then, just gen the html and copy/paste04:20
mgalvinmdke: jsgotangco may also help out with the release notes as well04:22
jsgotangcowell i did wrote the last one for breezy04:22
jsgotangcoit *was* hard04:22
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trappistsay.  is there any reason to keep the .pot files in the svn repo?  if these are generated files and not to be mucked with, if nothing else it sould save a little bandwidth and disk space to svn rm them.04:37
jsgotangcothey're not that big compared to the unused images right?04:38
trappistmostly true, I think - I'm arguing for cleaning up the repo in general.  I'm all for doing away with those too.04:39
mgalvin+1 for spring cleaning04:40
trappistworks for me04:40
jsgotangcowell not really cleaning04:40
jsgotangcoi'd rather branch the old stuff04:40
jsgotangcomight be useful at one point04:40
mgalvinright of course, always save old stuff... you never know when we might need it04:41
trappistit'd still be there as an old rev04:41
jsgotangcotrappist, yeah we branch after every release then clean up then merge back to trunk04:42
mgalvinand the old branches, e.x. breezy still have the old stuff04:42
jsgotangcoi believe we currently have 2 branches04:42
jjesseshould be trunk and breezy04:42
mgalvintrappist: it might be best to propose a cleanup process and such and then being the cleanup process after the dapper release04:43
mdkeleave the pots alone please04:43
mgalvinthis way we could create the dapper branch then clean up what is necessary04:43
trappistwhere is the document that describes the markup we use, and when to use what?04:46
trappistor are we all using some cool docbook editor and I'm just using vim like a chump?04:46
=== mgalvin uses gedit or vi
trappistmgalvin: how do you decide what markup to use for, say, an application name?04:47
mgalvintrappist: well since there is no guide for that (that i know of) i generally follow the conventions of the doc i am working on04:50
mgalvinbased on what is already in it04:50
trappistgotcha.  since that doesn't seem to be consistent among the docs, maybe this new meta-document should be on our to-do list.04:50
trappistfor dapper+1 of course :)04:51
mgalvinyup :)04:51
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mgalvinwe should have a doc describing our conventions04:51
mgalvinright now i think and valid doc-book is game04:51
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jjesseisn't that the styleguide or ??04:51
trappistI thought the styleguide was more about linguistic conventions04:52
trappistbut maybe it does belong in there04:52
mgalvinright the style guide says nothing about docbook tags04:52
jsgotangcoits supposed to be, but it'll make a the styleguide a chapter or something then another chapter dedicated to docbook conventions04:52
jsgotangcoin effect, creating an ubuntu documentation guide04:53
trappistI like that04:53
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trappistdo we have some kind of lint checker? or is there a way for me to see how my changes will appear in the wiki?05:14
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mdketrappist, there is a preview button under the edit box05:24
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trappistI'm editing with vim in the repo - should I be doing the wiki thing instead?05:25
mdketrappist, what wiki are you talking about?05:26
mdkethe repo is a separate thing05:26
trappistI'm looking at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/firewall-configuration.html and editing generic/serverguide/C/network-applications.xml05:26
jjessebuild the guide locally05:27
mdkeah, that's not a wiki05:27
mdketrappist, do "make server" from the ubuntu/ folder, or simply open the xml in yelp05:27
trappistoh you're right, it just looks a lot like the wiki :)05:27
trappistmdke: that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.05:27
mdkethere's also a validation script in the top level of the trunk repo.05:28
trappistexcellent05:28
mdkeoh actually, you can do "make server" in the generic folder too05:28
mdkeit calls the same target05:28
trappistis there something as cool as yelp that serves as an editor?05:29
trappistsome things have not turned out as I expected and it's hard to see why05:29
mdkefraid not05:30
mdkethe validate script will tell you what is wrong with the code05:30
LaserJockconglomerate is suposed to be close but I crashed a couple of times when I tried to open up some of the docs in the repo. They are too much for it I think ;-)05:34
trappistyeah it can't seem to handle network-applications.xml05:35
trappistanyway I'm filling in the blanks on the firewall section, which is all blanks.  of course I have to cover iptables, but how deep should I go and at what point do I defer to the awesome docs that already exist on the intarweb?05:39
mdkeyour own judgment I'd say, I'm just happy to have blanks filled in06:02
mdkebhuvan might be able to give better indication06:02
trappistfound a couple of java docbook editors on sourceforge that might not suck once I figure them out06:06
mdkeit's all about gedit06:18
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LaserJock*cough* vim *cough*06:21
trappistyeah, looks like gedit is a text editor, and I'm pretty much a vim guy.  I just want a live preview to help me get acquainted with the markup.06:22
LaserJockI usually just use yelp for that. Not perfect for sure. Especially since I edit and preview on 2 different machines ;-)06:24
mdkeyelp is good06:26
LaserJockbut it isn't very "live"06:27
LaserJockactually, I really wish there was a reload button06:27
trappistyeah I was just looking for that.06:27
mdkectrl R06:30
trappistoh cool06:30
mdke>_<06:30
trappistwhy can't they just use f5 like all the cool guys06:30
trappistor even ctrl-l like vim06:31
mdkegnome uses ctrl r06:31
trappistI see.06:31
LaserJockor put a button or at least have it in the menu06:32
mdkeusers don't need to refresh yelp06:32
mdkeonly doc writers :D06:32
mptF5 is for turning the volume up06:33
jjesse no Fn+Page Up is for turning up the volume06:34
trappistI think it's ctrl-alt-meta-shift-escape-pagedown-enter to refresh in emacs06:35
robotgeekLaserJock: about the previews, i use html so that i can refresh easily06:38
trappistis that ok?06:38
trappistI can write html with my butt cheeks.06:38
LaserJockrobotgeek: well, it is easier for me to use yelp than to build the html and view it06:39
trappistI know maybe half a dozen docbook markup tags06:39
trappistso I'm sure I'm using some of them inappropriately06:39
LaserJockwell, you still need to know the docbook 06:42
LaserJockto make the html06:42
mdketrappist, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags06:42
trappistawesome.  I was trying to ask for that earlier :)06:43
LaserJockmdke: what? that isn't linked to from the other Docbook wiki pages06:43
LaserJockI didn't know that existed06:44
mdkeother docbook wiki pages?06:51
=== mdke goes home
LaserJockmdke: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook06:54
LaserJockmdke: and DocBookReference06:55
LaserJockmdke: DocbookTags isn't linked from any of the docteam wiki pages, e.g. DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted06:56
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trappistdangit I screwed up the xml so bad yelp can't open it now.07:04
jjessetrappist: revert :)07:07
trappistnot if I don't have to :)07:07
trappistgot it.  spurious </para>.07:10
Madpilottrappist, the validation script sometimes gives better results than yelp's error messages07:11
trappistMadpilot: the validation script already produces so much output from "listitem" tags it doesn't like in this particular file I was saving it for a last resort07:11
robotgeekcheckXML is sometimes better than the validate.sh, lot slwoer07:11
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robotgeektrappist: no, we are not forzen yet. not for another 10 days07:36
trappistossum07:36
MadpilotI'm still unclear as to how this six-week delay is going to affect our timetables...07:37
trappistMadpilot: are you on #ubuntu-meeting?07:37
Madpilotyes07:37
KyralIts like a FREE FOR ALL!!07:37
trappistoh there you are :)07:37
trappistyeah it's a mess07:37
robotgeekMadpilot: techboard decides07:37
robotgeekthe previous meeting was so much more civil07:37
Madpilotrobotgeek, ah OK07:37
robotgeekMadpilot: i am considering making a progress report of sorts for the doc team07:38
Madpilotcool07:38
Madpilotwe should start work on the 3rd edition of our Docteam News 07:38
trappistthat would be very helpful to me, as I have lots of time and not much info on what needs what kind of work07:39
Madpilottrappist, have you found the existing status reports for our docs?07:39
robotgeektrappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects07:40
trappistyes, but it's apparently out-of-date enough that the specific document I'd been working on and was told was no longer used was still listed there07:40
Madpilottrappist, which one? There are a few old docs still hanging around07:41
trappistso I'm not sure how much to trust it07:41
trappistMadpilot: quicktour07:41
Burgworkquicktour currently has no lead07:43
BurgworkI might pick it up again07:43
trappistmy personal primary goal is to fix spelling/grammar/style issues.  secondary is to fill in blanks on topics I'm sufficiently familiar with.  any tips on what docs need the most of that kind of attention would be most helpful.07:45
Madpilottrappist, our major docs for this release are the two Desktop Guides, the Server Guide, and the Install Guide07:46
trappistcool, I guess I phrased my question correctly this time :)  that's what I'm looking for.07:47
robotgeekMadpilot: who is working on the install guide?07:48
Madpilothmm, nobody - my mistake. :P07:48
MadpilotI meant the Packaging Guide - sorry07:49
Madpilotquicktour seems to have been overtaken by sabdfl's About Ubuntu stuff?07:49
robotgeekhttp://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/ 07:50
LaserJockKyral was working on the install guide I think07:50
=== Kyral blinks
KyralI though someone took i over07:50
KyralI mean the threads on the ML suggested as such07:50
Madpiloton our project page the Install Guide is still listed as none/help wanted/no work done yet...07:51
trappistwith 10 days left until freeze it would be useful to make this info easy to find and up to date, so nobody's wasting time or getting their changes stepped on07:51
Kyral...did you swipe this from the Debian Install Guide07:51
Madpilottrappist, stick with the two Desktop guides & the Server Guide, we *know* those will be shipped & are being worked on07:52
jjesseagreed Madpilot07:52
LaserJocktrappist: and if you have some spare time after those you can ask me about the Packaging Guide ;-)07:52
trappistMadpilot: right, I just don't want to be proofreading stuff somebody else is rewriting, if it can be avoided07:52
trappistLaserJock: can do07:53
Madpilottrappist, I can only speak for the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, but from my point of view major writing on UDG is done - mdke might have some plans, but I don't currently07:53
robotgeektrappist: the "awaiting review" stuff will not be touched. 07:54
robotgeeksame on kdg, except that there are few sections which need love07:54
trappistrobotgeek: I don't see anything awaiting review07:54
robotgeekhttp://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html07:55
robotgeekmore than 80% is :)07:55
trappistah.07:55
trappistoh, that's a great page07:56
Madpilothttp://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/dg-report.html <- UDG's version of the same page07:56
trappistobviously I'm still finding my way around07:56
Madpilottrappist, follow the Status links from that table on /Projects07:56
trappistright07:56
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trappistanybody available to review my serverguide patch?09:22
robotgeektrappist: i dunno anything about servers and firewalls, sorry09:26
trappistrobotgeek: if you could peek at the non-content stuff... like, should I have updated the status tags, used different markup, etc.09:27
robotgeektrappist: okay, sure09:27
robotgeektrappist: please look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute for naming conventions09:28
trappistgotcha09:29
trappistanother good doc I haven't seen before09:30
robotgeektrappist: maybe you should bookmark https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted 09:31
robotgeektrappist: it does not validate?09:33
trappistit didn't validate before I started :/09:33
robotgeektrappist: err, it validates when i did?09:34
trappistok, let me check that out...09:34
trappistyep it does.  I must have done something before I got started and forgot to revert back to the repo copy...09:35
trappistk, got it validating.  will now peruse some docs and see that it conforms in other ways... thanks :)09:38
robotgeekcool09:39
jjessewhat was that link again for desktop guide status?09:48
jjesserobotgeek: you are the lead on that right?09:48
robotgeekyessir09:49
robotgeekhttp://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html09:49
jjesserobotgeek: email address ?  i have an email from soemone in hungray that wants to help out on kubuntu docs and i would like to includee you in on it as you are lead :)09:49
robotgeekjjesse: venkatvc at ubuntu.com09:49
jjessesent09:51
robotgeekthanks jjesse 09:53
jjessenp robotgeek thanks for all the work you do, it means al ot to not be the lone wolf in kubuntu doc land09:56
robotgeekjjesse: i've kind of decided to stay on the documentation side of stuff. not motu stuff for me09:56
robotgeeklack of documentation on anything pisses me off now. 09:57
jjessegrin :)09:59
jjesserobotgeek: to me that has always been the problem with Open Source software10:05
robotgeekjjesse: i found out the hard way last year, during my thesis work. lol10:05
robotgeekis the Ubuntu book downloadable etc? 10:08
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jjesserobotgeek: i haven't heard about that yet10:09
robotgeekokay10:09
robotgeekjjesse: can you join #ubuntu-meeting?10:12
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jjessesure whats up?10:13
robotgeekjjesse: do you know anything about translations and stuff10:14
jjessenot really, i know that the docs get put into rossetta10:14
_nagyvhello! I would like to help you out in the Kubuntu docs, but I am quite new to this type of helping. Is there an easy way to check out the Users Guide? Is there any recommended DocBook editor for 1.0 users?10:14
jjessethis will be the first release for kubuntu docs in rosetta10:14
robotgeek_nagyv: quanta is good, so is kate10:14
jjesse_nagyv: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted is a good place to look10:15
_nagyvis it a problem if I am not a native english speaker? I would prefer to write in english,but it can need corrections. Hungarian translation is a bit too big to be worthwile.10:17
robotgeek_nagyv: sure, i can review and upload10:17
jjesse_nagyv: anything you send to the ubuntu-doc mailing list we will review before committing10:22
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IceToxAnyone here have ever tried running xpde at ubuntu?10:58
BurgworkIceTox, no, but this is not the correct channel. Best to try #ubuntu11:03
IceToxtried11:04
IceToxsorry11:04
IceToxI've got the solution tho :-)=11:04
IceToxthanks11:04
Burgworkhmm, there is not ubuntu.com/com11:27
Burgworkmake that /about11:28
BurgworkI think I will create a quicktour like doc, in moin, and then move it there11:29
LaserJockBurgwork: thanks for being at the TB meeting11:30
Burgworknp11:30
LaserJockBurgwork: I couldn't make it and I was hoping to be there11:30
mdke_how does one make a statement to the TB about the freeze?11:30
mdke_"The TB is asking for a statement from us"11:30
LaserJockmdke_: they have there own private ML11:30
Burgworkwe write a statement and one of us can present it to them. We can also mail them beforehand11:31
LaserJockmdke_: could I possibly suggest we do b) ?11:31
LaserJockI know that the Packaging Guide isn't very important to users but I would really like to see it in Dapper11:32
mdke_LaserJock, the alternative would be to freeze docs at different times11:32
mdke_translation of the desktop/server guides is more important than for the PG, so it could start earlier11:32
mdke_whereas polish on the PG is more important, so it could freeze later11:33
LaserJockI think 2 week extension would be OK for the PG11:33
LaserJockbut I'm not sure if I can make the current freeze11:33
=== LaserJock mumbles about devs not having enough time to write docs
mdke_ok, we'll discuss on list for a while11:34
mdke_Burgwork, when do they want the statement?11:34
robotgeekmdke_: i like the freeze docs at different dates idea11:34
mdke_robotgeek, will the KDG be ready in a week?11:34
LaserJockbut I agree that more time need is needed translations11:34
Burgworkmdke_, they gave no time, but I think we can come to an agreement pretty quickly11:34
LaserJockBurgwork: I agree11:34
mdke_me too11:34
LaserJockI just think b) is better than a) for me11:35
robotgeekmdke_: yes, i will have to get rid of the sections which are not complete/need verification.11:35
BurgworkI just wasn't prepared to sign off on anything without other doc team members11:35
mdke_I'm glad you didn't11:36
LaserJockrobotgeek: would 2 extra weeks be enough?11:36
mdke_6 weeks is way too long11:36
LaserJockI agree11:36
mdke_LaserJock, what about no change for the docs except for the packaging guide, which gets 2 more weeks?11:37
mdke_I'd like to hear bhuvan's opinion too though on the server guide, and jjesse on other kubuntu docs11:37
robotgeekLaserJock: i don't know if it would help. my request for help mail has been in there for about a week with no response, i am not sure if 2 more weeks is the right answer11:37
LaserJockk11:37
LaserJockmdke_: your suggestion is definitely ok with me.11:40
LaserJockI just don't want to get anybody mad at me because I *get* two extra weeks ;-)11:40
robotgeekLaserJock: no, take your time. i expect to learn to package from that one :)11:41
mdke_i have a further alternative11:41
mdke_two extra weeks for all docs, and we start translating slightly earlier than that11:41
mdke_then update the translation templates at freeze11:41
robotgeekmdke_: i have no idea about details of the translation process, could you explain slightly?11:42
mdke_we create templates (pot files) and upload them to the archive. these get imported to rosetta, translators translate them, we download the translated version and convert it into xml, ship it11:43
mdke_during that process, if docs change slightly at an early stage, it's no big deal to reupload, the new strings appear in rosetta11:43
mdke_but late changes are a Bad Idea11:43
mdke_hence the freeze11:43
robotgeekmaybe it's a good idea for translators to start with sections that are "complete"11:44
mdke_there's no _easy_ way of doing that11:44
mdke_the best plan is to get most things complete, then start them off11:44
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mdke_I'd be fine with 2 weeks slippage11:45
mdke_let's see what others say11:45
LaserJockI agree with mdke_ though that 6 weeks is way to long11:45
mdke_I'm off to bed11:46
mdke_see ya later11:46
LaserJockcya mdke_ 11:46
LaserJocktheCore: hi, how's it going?11:47
theCoreLaserJock: pretty good, you?11:49
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LaserJocktheCore: ok, very busy.11:49
LaserJocktheCore: are  you going to be able to send me any diffs in the next day or 2?11:49
theCoreLaserJock: maybe11:50
LaserJocktheCore: ok. I'm going to try to start at the Introduction and work my way through.11:51
LaserJocktheCore: I want to get at least the Introduction and Getting Started sections pretty much set today11:52
theCoreLaserJock: btw, why we need a specific kubuntu section ? 11:52
LaserJocktheCore: well, I'm going to see if we need that in the end. There are some differences but I'm not sure if they are big enough to justify a whole section11:53
LaserJockmostly there are a couple patches for using cdbs and you need to be aware of the kde dependencies11:54
theCoreLaserJock: the guide render quite differently on KDE ... 11:54
LaserJockI'm going to bug jpatrick or maybe raphink about it to see if we need a secion or not11:54
LaserJocktheCore: does it? good or bad?11:54
theCoreLaserJock: it's outdated11:55
LaserJockah, yeah that is because the kubuntu-docs package is a little older than the ubuntu-docs package11:55
LaserJockthey take their svn snapshots at different times11:56
theCoreLaserJock: who is Ankur Kotwal? 11:56
theCoreLaserJock: the original author ?11:56
LaserJockAnkur wrote the "Intro Developer Doc" that I started with11:56
LaserJockhe recently contacted me and wants to work on the Packaging Guide11:57
LaserJockhe was going to merge some of his material with ours for the example sections11:57
LaserJockbut I haven't heard back from him11:57
theCoreLaserJock: can you take a seconds, and see the guide on 12:00
theCorekubuntu?12:00
LaserJocknot really. I don't have a kubuntu setup at the moment. Could you (or robotgeek maybe ) put a screenshot somewhere?12:01
robotgeekLaserJock: screenshot of what?12:01
LaserJockrobotgeek: the Packaging Guide from KDE?12:02
robotgeekLaserJock: okay, from khelpcenter?12:02
theCoreLaserJock: I got one12:02

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