[12:11] <Burgwork> ompaul, you still working on the FAQ?
[12:11] <Burgwork> ompaul, oh, wait, did I already move it? (am confused)
[12:11] <ompaul> I am not, it is not moved :)
[12:11] <Burgwork> ok, hmm
[12:12] <ompaul> after I stopped madpilot gave it a once over fixed a couple of bits and I have stayed away from it since
[12:12] <ompaul> not sure if I can add more value
[12:12] <Burgwork> ok, I should be able to find time to look at it this week
[12:13] <ompaul> it is not as meandering at this stage
[12:14] <ompaul> but where to next :-)
[01:32] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[01:33] <theCore> hi LaserJock
[01:46] <theCore> LaserJock: did you work on the guide?
[01:47] <theCore> s/k/ked/
[01:49] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, a bit
[01:49] <LaserJock> I think doc.ubuntu.com has what I have more or less
[01:51] <theCore> I didn't work on the guide, but instead on something closely related to it: packaging
[01:52] <LaserJock> cool
[01:54] <theCore> I trying to make a package that would configure Postfix and Fetchmail for Gmail. I'm kinda going nowhere but at least I'm trying
[01:56] <theCore> does ubuntu is down?
[01:56] <theCore> *.ubuntu.com
[02:00] <LaserJock> could be. there was an email that it was going down for a while. I can't remember when though.
[02:24] <theCore> nice it works!
[02:24] <theCore> (not the package but the config)
[02:38] <robotgeek> i can't belive this. http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=821554&postcount=8
[02:38] <robotgeek> in eed to post to clarify
[03:11] <theCore> mdke_: ping
[04:40] <robotgeek> theCore: hmm, i have configured fetchmail with gmail, also with postfix
[04:41] <robotgeek> theCore: nbsmtp was easier to setup than postfix, however
[04:41] <theCore> I'm still trying to get postfix working with smtp.gmail.com
[04:42] <robotgeek> theCore: do you want a link to a howto, i used it almost step by step
[04:42] <theCore> robotgeek: yeah, please
[04:42] <robotgeek> theCore: http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/postfix_tutorial.html
[04:43] <theCore> LOL
[04:43] <theCore> same as mine
[04:43] <robotgeek> yeah, install the package ca-certificates to reduce pain and suffering
[04:43] <theCore> robotgeek: can't send email though
[04:44] <theCore> robotgeek: are you able to ?
[04:44] <robotgeek> theCore: i just use nbsmtp now. it is much easier to get working
[04:45] <robotgeek> are you using port 587?
[04:45] <theCore> no 995
[04:48] <robotgeek> theCore: 995 is for fetching, not sending
[04:48] <robotgeek> for pop, basically
[04:48] <theCore> robotgeek: how do you deal with the mailing list ?
[04:49] <robotgeek> theCore: i setup procmail, i don't use it now, however
[04:49] <robotgeek> http://robotgeek.org/wiki/Main/PerfectEmailSetup . i am working on it :)
[04:51] <theCore> thanks for the tips
[04:52] <theCore> robotgeek: I will probably try to improve it
[04:53] <robotgeek> theCore: okay, let me give you a edit password then :)
[04:53] <theCore> oh :)
[04:54] <theCore> robotgeek: do you have my email ?
[04:54] <robotgeek> theCore: i /noticed you, check your server window
[04:56] <theCore> oh I see (boy I'm still IRC noob;)
[04:56] <robotgeek> theCore: we all are, when we start out. we learn :)
[04:56] <robotgeek> hey bhuvan 
[04:59] <bhuvan> hello robotgeek
[05:18] <robotgeek> mdke_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcRules says "bad solutions such as using install-css.sh from libdvdread" (seveas said that). We however suggest that method for getting dvds to work. we should investigate  
[05:30] <LaserJock> robotgeek: where?
[05:31] <robotgeek> helping: be helpful
[05:33] <LaserJock> but what doc do we recommend that?
[05:33] <robotgeek> LaserJock: in both the desktop guides
[05:34] <robotgeek> video, dvd section
[05:34] <LaserJock> I see it now
[05:35] <LaserJock> hmm, so maybe we should ask what the "correct" method is
[05:36] <robotgeek> yeah, i want to grab hold of seveas, he said that it was broken in dapper or something to that effect long time ago
[05:39] <Madpilot> robotgeek, Seveas is generally on early morning his time, about 0300 or so your time (~0100 here, Pacific Standard)
[05:40] <robotgeek> Madpilot: maybe i'll catch him on my way out
[05:40] <Madpilot> you can always /memo him and ask him to email you or the docteam list
[05:41] <robotgeek> yeah, maybe i can do that too
[05:44] <Madpilot> Could someone please sanity-check my lastest updates to UDG, the "getting to #ubuntu w/ XChat-Gnome" part?
[05:44] <LaserJock> I pinged him in -devel but I havn't got an answer
[05:44] <Madpilot> I'm not sure it's as clear as it could be, and I"m not in Dapper right now...
[05:44] <Madpilot> it's only about 5am in .nl right now
[05:44] <LaserJock> Madpilot: any reason to do XChat-Gnome over Xchat?
[05:45] <Madpilot> LaserJock, in Dapper XChat has been pushed into Universe, X-G is now in Main
[05:45] <Madpilot> frankly, I really dislike X-G, but it's there... :P
[05:45] <LaserJock> Madpilot: hmm, ok. I thought they were both in Main
[05:45] <Madpilot> XChat is in Main in Breezy, but it's not for Dapper
[05:47] <LaserJock> I see, well that at least makes sense.
[05:48] <Madpilot> I think I offended one of XChat-Gnome's developers over the weekend, by being a bit too blunt about that app's shortcomings... https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34715
[05:51] <theCore> viva Irssi ...
[05:51] <Madpilot> bleh. XChat is a UI disaster, but IMO so is XChat-Gnome, in the opposite direction...
[05:52] <Madpilot> it's a major over-reaction to XChat's let's-let-it-all-hang-out uber-configurability
[05:53] <LaserJock> my gosh, they obviously haven't used any KDE apps
[05:53] <LaserJock> XChat isn't all that configurable
[05:55] <Madpilot> by current Gnome standards I guess it is :P
[05:55] <Madpilot> I usually like the "sane defaults" theory of Gnome, but with XChat-Gnome they've killed all the configurability without providing sane defaults...
[05:56] <LaserJock> yeah, I really have a hard time with Gnome standards. I'm not sure if I agree with it philosophically
[06:00] <Madpilot> Most of the time it works. Epiphany, SoundJuicer, Gnome-App-Install - they're all brilliant. The XChat-Gnome folks have just gone a bit overboard, I think.
[06:02] <LaserJock> to me it really just seems dumbed down. I mean they usually have pretty good defaults (better than KDE to me) but once you try to think outside their box ...
[06:05] <Madpilot> KDE always strikes me as too much an XP-clone - which I know is unfair, but that's how it feels & looks to me
[06:06] <LaserJock> yeah, in some ways it does but you can configure it to be whatever you want. that is what I like about it
[06:06] <LaserJock> but I do like the general look-n-feel of gnome
[06:06] <LaserJock> but I don't like most Gnome apps
[06:07] <LaserJock> because once I need to configure them I find I can't
[06:07] <LaserJock> there is no control
[06:07] <LaserJock> anyway, time for bed
[06:07] <LaserJock> cya guys
[06:07] <Madpilot> later
[06:18] <Madpilot> OK, enough commits from me for one evening :P
[06:18] <Madpilot> hi highvoltage 
[06:22] <nate_> ok ok, maybe someone here can help, anyone know of any good docs for ubuntu's implementation of d-i and specifically the setup of preseed files?
[06:25] <robotgeek> Madpilot: that is so unfair, kde is highly configurable. xp if you want xp, os x if you want os x
[06:27] <Madpilot> robotgeek, I didn't say it was a fair impression of KDE, but it's always been mine :P
[06:28] <robotgeek> Madpilot: i thought so to intially, but now i am pretty impressed by how much i actually do with the gui, without loss of configurability
[06:28] <robotgeek> s/to/too
[06:42] <theCore> Mar 14 00:39:54 localhost postfix/smtp[13181] : CC8712D02BC: to=<avassalotti@gmail.com>, relay=none, delay=31, status=deferred (connect to smtp.gmail.com[72.14.205.109] : Connection timed out)
[07:16] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
[07:16] <jsgotangco> hey
[07:16] <Madpilot> dsas, you patch got committed w/ my commits a few hours ago
[07:16] <dsas> thanks madpilot
[07:17] <Madpilot> dsas, np, I was planning exactly that change already, you saved me some work
[07:18] <dsas> That's good, it occured to me it should be done on the way to work yesterday for some bizarre reason.
[07:20] <Madpilot> yeah, I spent last night playing with a Flight5 LiveCD and making notes for the UDG - having to install XChat-gnome was one of them
[07:22] <dsas> looking at things you've used Xchat-Gnome and the other use is Xchat-GNOME, shouldn't they be the same? Yours looks nicer but the other way is how it's done in the menus.
[07:22] <Madpilot> Gnome in all CAPS?
[07:22] <Madpilot> hadn't noticed
[07:23] <Madpilot> ah, so it is, it's XChat-GNOME in Breezy's Add Apps too - I'll fix that later, I guess
[07:24] <dsas> some applications have the information on starting them in the file, others are defined in ubuntu/menus/C/, should i move all apps into ubuntu/menus/C ?
[07:26] <Madpilot> if you really want to - I've been doing the new ones I add, but leaving most of the rest
[07:28] <dsas> hmm, ok. I didn't know whether or not there was an underlying reason which meant it was something we should e
[07:28] <dsas> whoops, 'something we should be doing.'
[07:29] <robotgeek> dsas: thanks for the reminder :)
[07:30] <dsas> robotgeek: no problem, tbh I'd not looked at the kubuntu docs, so I don't know whether or not the 'problem' exists there.
[07:30] <Madpilot> as far as I can see, it's useful for two reasons: for the apps that get mentioned repeatedly (Firefox, say) and for the stuff that's likely to change before Dapper release
[07:31] <robotgeek> dsas: well, most of the stuff applies to kdg too :)
[07:31] <dsas> Madpilot: oh, ok. Not a priority then.
[07:32] <dsas> robotgeek: oh ok, I've not looked at them tbh. I've been meaning to try kubuntu since the breezy released and still haven't got round to it :)
[07:32] <robotgeek> dsas: get it now :) 
[07:33] <dsas> robotgeek: maybe tonight, my laptop doesn't have a cd drive. I've not saw kde for about 3 years I think :)
[07:34] <robotgeek> dsas: well, i moved over to kubuntu from ubuntu. it si very nice. :)
[07:39] <dsas> robotgeek: hmm, I struggle to imagine not using gnome now, I was a kde fan years ago but I struggle to imagine not using gnome now.
[07:39] <dsas> wow, it's early. I'm repeating myself.
[07:39] <robotgeek> dsas: i mostly use cli, but all the apps i use are kde. amarok/k3b/akregator
[08:32] <Madpilot> robitaille, you staying up for the community meeting, or catching the 2nd one tomorrow?
[08:32] <robitaille> I'm going to bed soon...  :)
[08:33] <Madpilot> likewise, I don't work Tues. morning so I'll join the 2nd meeting @ 1000 our time
[08:33] <robitaille> Maybe I'll lurk for the meeting tomorrow.  It's not always obvious to be on IRC from work
[08:34] <Madpilot> heh, just be good at swapping desktops or alt+tab :P
[08:35] <robotgeek> irssi with grey colors looks like coding :P
[08:36] <robitaille> I can't use irc directly from work.  So I ssh into my home machine to do it.  But sometimes the kids are in Windows to play games, thus I lose my irc access :)
[08:36] <robotgeek> robitaille: install ssh server on windows also?
[08:36] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  I use Linux at work...government firewall blog IRC and I haven't bothered finding a way around the restriction
[08:37] <robitaille> s/blog/block
[08:37] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, you staying up or going to the mtg from work?
[08:37] <Burgundavia> robitaille: you should be able to tunnel irc through port 80, but I never got it to work when I worked for microservew
[08:37] <Burgundavia> I will go to the meeting from work
[08:38] <robotgeek> i think it's a forgone conclusion, the meeting?
[08:38] <Burgundavia> there are influential people on both sides
[08:38] <Madpilot> it should be interesting, regardless. Anyway, my cold virus and I need sleep. Later, all
[08:38] <robotgeek> later
[08:38] <Burgundavia> I have to finish the gnome 2.14 press release
[08:40] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  I'm too lazy...I connect to home when I can, or piggyback on the university wireless via the classroom network one room up from my office.  Or I simply read the logs afterward and do actual work at work :)
[08:40] <Burgundavia> bah, work
[08:42] <robitaille> pays the rent...actually I like spending my days coding in fortran
[08:58] <mdke_> robotgeek, how is that a bad solution?
[08:58] <mdke_> (dvdcss)
[08:58] <robotgeek> mdke_: i don't know, i have to ask seveas
[08:59] <mdke_> robotgeek, apart from anything else, it is the recommended debian way, and is on RestrictedFormats
[08:59] <robotgeek> mdke_: yes, and it also works
[08:59] <mdke_> indeed
[09:00] <mdke_> I hate it when these irc people get all arrogant and dismissive :D
[09:00] <robotgeek> i was just surprised that ircrules page suggests that it is a bad solution, i have no idea why
[09:00] <robotgeek> it might just easier to edit the wiki page, but seveas usually knows what he is talking about :)
[09:01] <mdke_> ok
[09:02] <robotgeek> i'll grab him today :)
[09:19] <robotgeek> mdke_: ping
[09:20] <mdke_> robotgeek, yeah
[09:21] <robotgeek> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10208
[09:22] <robotgeek> my conversation with seveas in #ubuntu-offtopic , just now
[09:22] <mdke_> man
[09:22] <mdke_> he is so arrogant
[09:23] <robotgeek> heh
[09:23] <mdke_> i'm not ditching realplayer
[09:23] <robotgeek> anyways, that is the info we need i guess
[09:23] <mdke_> no.
[09:23] <mdke_> there are two solutions for realplayer, one is to install using real's binary, the other is the package
[09:23] <mdke_> the latter is recommended on RestrictedFormats
[09:24] <mdke_> and I also prefer dvdcss from the debian source to unofficial packages versions
[09:24] <mdke_> if he thinks it is wrong, he can tell us why, and I'll listen
[09:24] <robotgeek> yes, but it apparently is going to go away
[09:24] <mdke_> robotgeek, from the debian package?
[09:24] <robotgeek> yes, that is what he claims
[09:24] <mdke_> i'd like to see evidence of that
[09:24] <mdke_> anyway, talk later, gtg to work
[09:25] <bustacap> haha I just got back from work
[09:25] <bustacap> :D
[09:25] <Burgundavia> I need to sleep
[09:26] <bustacap> the Aussie/Asian SABDFL meeting is due to start in 30 mins..
[09:28] <Burgundavia> night all
[09:28] <robotgeek> night Burgundavia 
[09:35] <jsgotangco> hmm
[09:36] <jsgotangco> mdke_: is the plain text in our FF frontpage bluish???
[10:18] <mdke_> jsgotangco, black
[10:18] <robotgeek> mdke_: meeting underway
[10:19] <jsgotangco> they look bluish on my lcd
[10:19] <jsgotangco> probably because of the size
[10:21] <mdke_> could be
[10:21] <mdke_> try resizing them
[10:21] <rob> its amazing how civil it is in there
[10:21] <mdke_> robotgeek, got work to do, sorry
[10:21] <robotgeek> mdke_: oh okay, stay safe :)
[10:21] <jsgotangco> its still bluish
[10:21] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:22] <jsgotangco> its not as black compared to google..probably the fonts
[10:26] <jsgotangco> we started civil so people just became civil too
[10:26] <rob> its also amazing that +m hasn't had to be used.. credit to the community I say
[10:57] <poningru> they need someone in meeting....
[10:57] <poningru> nm
[10:59] <jsgotangco> bustacap: namaan?
[10:59] <bustacap> yep..
[10:59] <bustacap> :)
[10:59] <bustacap> naaman.
[11:02] <jsgotangco> please stop this thread before it becomes a mini flamewar
[11:03] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: the one on sounder?
[11:03] <jsgotangco> yes
[11:03] <bustacap> what thread is that? (URL please)
[11:04] <rob> jsgotangco, its not a flamewar, I'm just offering my thoughts and someone took it to heart
[11:04] <jsgotangco> point taken and you have valid arguments and i said "before"
[11:05] <rob> just because I'm a member and every other joe bloggs who blogs is not doesn't mean I can't still offer constructive criticism
[11:05] <jsgotangco> i agree on that, i did something like this before, but not on doco
[11:05] <jsgotangco> i think its was for a11y
[11:06] <rob> I didn't out right say "Ubuntu is crap", I just said that this simple thing should change, and gave reasons why
[11:06] <jsgotangco> do it in en_US next time heh
[11:06] <jsgotangco> kidding
[11:07] <rob> nice pickup
[11:12] <mdke_> I have a different definition of "constructive" criticism that doesn't include criticism done in a deliberately provocative and inflammatory way
[11:13] <rob> its a simple question, the fact that you would get so heated about it suggests there is substance behind it
[11:13] <rob> its not like I'm burning flags to get my point across, as was done recently here in aus
[11:14] <mdke_> there may or may not be substance behind it
[11:14] <mdke_> but implying that Ubuntu doesn't care about documentation is just ridiculous
[11:14] <mdke_> you must be able to see that
[11:14] <rob> so you disagree that the use of Documentation should be encouraged to the fullest extent?
[11:14] <mdke_> no
[11:15] <mdke_> i disagree that you make wide and unjustified assertions
[11:15] <mdke_> when making a simple point
[11:15] <rob> the adminstrators of the web site obviously consider documentation important, just none other then the wiki existed when they first created the site
[11:15] <mdke_> yes
[11:15] <rob> this legacy link needs to be changed to reflect the documentation project as a whole
[11:16] <mdke_> you continue to misunderstand me. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that you make your point in a totally disproportionate and provocative way
[11:16] <rob> thats the point I'm making, and I beleave its a relevent way of making it
[11:16] <mdke_> yes I know
[11:16] <mdke_> but you are wrong, it is not a relevant way of making it
[11:17] <rob> the question isn't "Ubuntu doesn't care about its docs, so why should we?" the question is "Does ubuntu care about its docs?" and if it does, why does it bury it down three clicks
[11:18] <rob> quite simply, I'm happy for the administrators of the web site to prove me wrong
[11:18] <mdke_> it's not a question at all
[11:18] <mdke_> you're saying "the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation"
[11:18] <rob> no I'm not
[11:18] <mdke_> and that defies any logic
[11:18] <rob> I'm saying "Does the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation?"
[11:18] <mdke_> haha
[11:19] <rob> s/demonstrates/demonstrate
[11:19] <mdke_> it's a rhetorical question and you know it, but let's leave it there
[11:19] <rob> its not a statement, its a question designed to cause discussion and hopefully a solution
[11:19] <mdke_> ok, well you've seen mine and corey's point.
[11:20] <rob> your putting words into my mouth
[11:20] <mdke_> I disagree
[11:21] <rob> what, exactly, is your problem with such a question? 
[11:21] <rob> note I said question, not statement
[11:22] <rob> if you took the time to properly read the whole article you would see infact I say that Ubuntu clearly does care, and that this link should be changed to show the average user that
[11:22] <mdke> putting that question implies that the answer is no. Especially since it is wholly unrelated to the point you are making.
[11:22] <mdke> I've read the article
[11:22] <mdke> but the title is more prominent than the rest of the article
[11:22] <mdke> that's what a title is
[11:23] <rob> its kind of pointless arguing about the intent and meaning of an article with the person who wrote it, don't you think?
[11:23] <mdke> rob, i disagree entirely. the meaning of an article depends on the reader
[11:24] <mdke> it's like saying "Does Ubuntu care about its downloads?" and then making the point that there is no first level download link
[11:24] <mdke> it's a good point, but the question doesn't follow
[11:24] <rob> re-read the second last paragraph
[11:24] <rob> "We all know the opposite is true, but to the new user the Ubuntu web site is currently quite intimidating."
[11:25] <mdke> I've made my point on that
[11:26] <rob> the "intent" of the article is clearly written in the last paragraph also
[11:28] <rob> I've lost count of the amount of times I'm mentioned to users and authors of articles alike that the official docs exist and the response been one of surprise
[11:33] <mdke> yes, that's part of your point on the absence of the link
[11:40] <rob> good night mdke, nice chatting to you :)
[11:41] <mdke> good night
[12:52] <highvoltage> win 11
[12:55] <nate_> hey documentation guys, I have a request for some documentation on creating dummy-packages
[12:56] <nate_> i don't know if you take requests ;)
[01:00] <mdke> sure we do, especially if they include the text
[01:00] <mdke> if you mail the list with more details, that might be the best idea
[01:01] <nate_> ok
[01:18] <bustacap> hey guys - updated UserDocumentation on the Wiki..
[03:56] <mdke> mgalvin, hiya. Is there a special reason you've got screenshots in both ubuntu/images/en and ubuntu/images/C ?
[03:58] <mgalvin> mdke: when i went to commit them i looked in both of those dirs... they both had the images so i put them in both places (i was not sure which was actually being used :-/) please feel free to remove what we don't need
[04:01] <mdke> mgalvin, ok, I think en shouldn't be there. I'll look into it, cheers
[04:04] <mdke> mgalvin, so you're working on some releasenotes in svn?
[04:06] <mgalvin> mdke: i started to take a crack at them... jerome, cory and i were talking about them the other day and we decided I would start working on them in svn...
[04:06] <mgalvin> we were also thinking of building both the html and moin markup for it so we could copy/paste it onto the wiki
[04:07] <mgalvin> this is just for the finial release notes
[04:07] <mgalvin> those alpha reviews i have been doing will still be worked on in the wiki
[04:09] <mdke> cool
[04:09] <mdke> will you liase with mdz and co on the releasenotes?
[04:10] <mgalvin> yup, will do
[04:10] <mdke> cool
[04:10] <mdke> are you working on it in docbook xml?
[04:11] <mgalvin> yea, following same format and procedure as the previous ones... for now i really just copied breezy-release-notes.xml to dapper-release-notes.xml
[04:16] <jjesse> that's how i did it for kubunut release notes if i recall correctly :)
[04:16] <mgalvin> :)
[04:18] <mdke> cool
[04:19] <mdke> you know the website will take html? moin format isn't necessary
[04:19] <jsgotangco> hey guys
[04:19] <mgalvin> even better
[04:19] <mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
[04:20] <mgalvin> mdke: i will try that first then, just gen the html and copy/paste
[04:22] <mgalvin> mdke: jsgotangco may also help out with the release notes as well
[04:22] <jsgotangco> well i did wrote the last one for breezy
[04:22] <jsgotangco> it *was* hard
[04:37] <trappist> say.  is there any reason to keep the .pot files in the svn repo?  if these are generated files and not to be mucked with, if nothing else it sould save a little bandwidth and disk space to svn rm them.
[04:38] <jsgotangco> they're not that big compared to the unused images right?
[04:39] <trappist> mostly true, I think - I'm arguing for cleaning up the repo in general.  I'm all for doing away with those too.
[04:40] <mgalvin> +1 for spring cleaning
[04:40] <trappist> works for me
[04:40] <jsgotangco> well not really cleaning
[04:40] <jsgotangco> i'd rather branch the old stuff
[04:40] <jsgotangco> might be useful at one point
[04:41] <mgalvin> right of course, always save old stuff... you never know when we might need it
[04:41] <trappist> it'd still be there as an old rev
[04:42] <jsgotangco> trappist, yeah we branch after every release then clean up then merge back to trunk
[04:42] <mgalvin> and the old branches, e.x. breezy still have the old stuff
[04:42] <jsgotangco> i believe we currently have 2 branches
[04:42] <jjesse> should be trunk and breezy
[04:43] <mgalvin> trappist: it might be best to propose a cleanup process and such and then being the cleanup process after the dapper release
[04:43] <mdke> leave the pots alone please
[04:43] <mgalvin> this way we could create the dapper branch then clean up what is necessary
[04:46] <trappist> where is the document that describes the markup we use, and when to use what?
[04:46] <trappist> or are we all using some cool docbook editor and I'm just using vim like a chump?
[04:47] <trappist> mgalvin: how do you decide what markup to use for, say, an application name?
[04:50] <mgalvin> trappist: well since there is no guide for that (that i know of) i generally follow the conventions of the doc i am working on
[04:50] <mgalvin> based on what is already in it
[04:50] <trappist> gotcha.  since that doesn't seem to be consistent among the docs, maybe this new meta-document should be on our to-do list.
[04:51] <trappist> for dapper+1 of course :)
[04:51] <mgalvin> yup :)
[04:51] <mgalvin> we should have a doc describing our conventions
[04:51] <mgalvin> right now i think and valid doc-book is game
[04:51] <jjesse> isn't that the styleguide or ??
[04:52] <trappist> I thought the styleguide was more about linguistic conventions
[04:52] <trappist> but maybe it does belong in there
[04:52] <mgalvin> right the style guide says nothing about docbook tags
[04:52] <jsgotangco> its supposed to be, but it'll make a the styleguide a chapter or something then another chapter dedicated to docbook conventions
[04:53] <jsgotangco> in effect, creating an ubuntu documentation guide
[04:53] <trappist> I like that
[05:14] <trappist> do we have some kind of lint checker? or is there a way for me to see how my changes will appear in the wiki?
[05:24] <mdke> trappist, there is a preview button under the edit box
[05:25] <trappist> I'm editing with vim in the repo - should I be doing the wiki thing instead?
[05:26] <mdke> trappist, what wiki are you talking about?
[05:26] <mdke> the repo is a separate thing
[05:26] <trappist> I'm looking at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/firewall-configuration.html and editing generic/serverguide/C/network-applications.xml
[05:27] <jjesse> build the guide locally
[05:27] <mdke> ah, that's not a wiki
[05:27] <mdke> trappist, do "make server" from the ubuntu/ folder, or simply open the xml in yelp
[05:27] <trappist> oh you're right, it just looks a lot like the wiki :)
[05:27] <trappist> mdke: that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.
[05:28] <mdke> there's also a validation script in the top level of the trunk repo.
[05:28] <trappist> excellent
[05:28] <mdke> oh actually, you can do "make server" in the generic folder too
[05:28] <mdke> it calls the same target
[05:29] <trappist> is there something as cool as yelp that serves as an editor?
[05:29] <trappist> some things have not turned out as I expected and it's hard to see why
[05:30] <mdke> fraid not
[05:30] <mdke> the validate script will tell you what is wrong with the code
[05:34] <LaserJock> conglomerate is suposed to be close but I crashed a couple of times when I tried to open up some of the docs in the repo. They are too much for it I think ;-)
[05:35] <trappist> yeah it can't seem to handle network-applications.xml
[05:39] <trappist> anyway I'm filling in the blanks on the firewall section, which is all blanks.  of course I have to cover iptables, but how deep should I go and at what point do I defer to the awesome docs that already exist on the intarweb?
[06:02] <mdke> your own judgment I'd say, I'm just happy to have blanks filled in
[06:02] <mdke> bhuvan might be able to give better indication
[06:06] <trappist> found a couple of java docbook editors on sourceforge that might not suck once I figure them out
[06:18] <mdke> it's all about gedit
[06:21] <LaserJock> *cough* vim *cough*
[06:22] <trappist> yeah, looks like gedit is a text editor, and I'm pretty much a vim guy.  I just want a live preview to help me get acquainted with the markup.
[06:24] <LaserJock> I usually just use yelp for that. Not perfect for sure. Especially since I edit and preview on 2 different machines ;-)
[06:26] <mdke> yelp is good
[06:27] <LaserJock> but it isn't very "live"
[06:27] <LaserJock> actually, I really wish there was a reload button
[06:27] <trappist> yeah I was just looking for that.
[06:30] <mdke> ctrl R
[06:30] <trappist> oh cool
[06:30] <mdke> >_<
[06:30] <trappist> why can't they just use f5 like all the cool guys
[06:31] <trappist> or even ctrl-l like vim
[06:31] <mdke> gnome uses ctrl r
[06:31] <trappist> I see.
[06:32] <LaserJock> or put a button or at least have it in the menu
[06:32] <mdke> users don't need to refresh yelp
[06:32] <mdke> only doc writers :D
[06:33] <mpt> F5 is for turning the volume up
[06:34] <jjesse>  no Fn+Page Up is for turning up the volume
[06:35] <trappist> I think it's ctrl-alt-meta-shift-escape-pagedown-enter to refresh in emacs
[06:38] <robotgeek> LaserJock: about the previews, i use html so that i can refresh easily
[06:38] <trappist> is that ok?
[06:38] <trappist> I can write html with my butt cheeks.
[06:39] <LaserJock> robotgeek: well, it is easier for me to use yelp than to build the html and view it
[06:39] <trappist> I know maybe half a dozen docbook markup tags
[06:39] <trappist> so I'm sure I'm using some of them inappropriately
[06:42] <LaserJock> well, you still need to know the docbook 
[06:42] <LaserJock> to make the html
[06:42] <mdke> trappist, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags
[06:43] <trappist> awesome.  I was trying to ask for that earlier :)
[06:43] <LaserJock> mdke: what? that isn't linked to from the other Docbook wiki pages
[06:44] <LaserJock> I didn't know that existed
[06:51] <mdke> other docbook wiki pages?
[06:54] <LaserJock> mdke: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook
[06:55] <LaserJock> mdke: and DocBookReference
[06:56] <LaserJock> mdke: DocbookTags isn't linked from any of the docteam wiki pages, e.g. DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
[07:04] <trappist> dangit I screwed up the xml so bad yelp can't open it now.
[07:07] <jjesse> trappist: revert :)
[07:07] <trappist> not if I don't have to :)
[07:10] <trappist> got it.  spurious </para>.
[07:11] <Madpilot> trappist, the validation script sometimes gives better results than yelp's error messages
[07:11] <trappist> Madpilot: the validation script already produces so much output from "listitem" tags it doesn't like in this particular file I was saving it for a last resort
[07:11] <robotgeek> checkXML is sometimes better than the validate.sh, lot slwoer
[07:36] <robotgeek> trappist: no, we are not forzen yet. not for another 10 days
[07:36] <trappist> ossum
[07:37] <Madpilot> I'm still unclear as to how this six-week delay is going to affect our timetables...
[07:37] <trappist> Madpilot: are you on #ubuntu-meeting?
[07:37] <Madpilot> yes
[07:37] <Kyral> Its like a FREE FOR ALL!!
[07:37] <trappist> oh there you are :)
[07:37] <trappist> yeah it's a mess
[07:37] <robotgeek> Madpilot: techboard decides
[07:37] <robotgeek> the previous meeting was so much more civil
[07:37] <Madpilot> robotgeek, ah OK
[07:38] <robotgeek> Madpilot: i am considering making a progress report of sorts for the doc team
[07:38] <Madpilot> cool
[07:38] <Madpilot> we should start work on the 3rd edition of our Docteam News 
[07:39] <trappist> that would be very helpful to me, as I have lots of time and not much info on what needs what kind of work
[07:39] <Madpilot> trappist, have you found the existing status reports for our docs?
[07:40] <robotgeek> trappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
[07:40] <trappist> yes, but it's apparently out-of-date enough that the specific document I'd been working on and was told was no longer used was still listed there
[07:41] <Madpilot> trappist, which one? There are a few old docs still hanging around
[07:41] <trappist> so I'm not sure how much to trust it
[07:41] <trappist> Madpilot: quicktour
[07:43] <Burgwork> quicktour currently has no lead
[07:43] <Burgwork> I might pick it up again
[07:45] <trappist> my personal primary goal is to fix spelling/grammar/style issues.  secondary is to fill in blanks on topics I'm sufficiently familiar with.  any tips on what docs need the most of that kind of attention would be most helpful.
[07:46] <Madpilot> trappist, our major docs for this release are the two Desktop Guides, the Server Guide, and the Install Guide
[07:47] <trappist> cool, I guess I phrased my question correctly this time :)  that's what I'm looking for.
[07:48] <robotgeek> Madpilot: who is working on the install guide?
[07:48] <Madpilot> hmm, nobody - my mistake. :P
[07:49] <Madpilot> I meant the Packaging Guide - sorry
[07:49] <Madpilot> quicktour seems to have been overtaken by sabdfl's About Ubuntu stuff?
[07:50] <robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/ 
[07:50] <LaserJock> Kyral was working on the install guide I think
[07:50] <Kyral> I though someone took i over
[07:50] <Kyral> I mean the threads on the ML suggested as such
[07:51] <Madpilot> on our project page the Install Guide is still listed as none/help wanted/no work done yet...
[07:51] <trappist> with 10 days left until freeze it would be useful to make this info easy to find and up to date, so nobody's wasting time or getting their changes stepped on
[07:51] <Kyral> ...did you swipe this from the Debian Install Guide
[07:52] <Madpilot> trappist, stick with the two Desktop guides & the Server Guide, we *know* those will be shipped & are being worked on
[07:52] <jjesse> agreed Madpilot
[07:52] <LaserJock> trappist: and if you have some spare time after those you can ask me about the Packaging Guide ;-)
[07:52] <trappist> Madpilot: right, I just don't want to be proofreading stuff somebody else is rewriting, if it can be avoided
[07:53] <trappist> LaserJock: can do
[07:53] <Madpilot> trappist, I can only speak for the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, but from my point of view major writing on UDG is done - mdke might have some plans, but I don't currently
[07:54] <robotgeek> trappist: the "awaiting review" stuff will not be touched. 
[07:54] <robotgeek> same on kdg, except that there are few sections which need love
[07:54] <trappist> robotgeek: I don't see anything awaiting review
[07:55] <robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html
[07:55] <robotgeek> more than 80% is :)
[07:55] <trappist> ah.
[07:56] <trappist> oh, that's a great page
[07:56] <Madpilot> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/dg-report.html <- UDG's version of the same page
[07:56] <trappist> obviously I'm still finding my way around
[07:56] <Madpilot> trappist, follow the Status links from that table on /Projects
[07:56] <trappist> right
[09:22] <trappist> anybody available to review my serverguide patch?
[09:26] <robotgeek> trappist: i dunno anything about servers and firewalls, sorry
[09:27] <trappist> robotgeek: if you could peek at the non-content stuff... like, should I have updated the status tags, used different markup, etc.
[09:27] <robotgeek> trappist: okay, sure
[09:28] <robotgeek> trappist: please look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute for naming conventions
[09:29] <trappist> gotcha
[09:30] <trappist> another good doc I haven't seen before
[09:31] <robotgeek> trappist: maybe you should bookmark https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted 
[09:33] <robotgeek> trappist: it does not validate?
[09:33] <trappist> it didn't validate before I started :/
[09:34] <robotgeek> trappist: err, it validates when i did?
[09:34] <trappist> ok, let me check that out...
[09:35] <trappist> yep it does.  I must have done something before I got started and forgot to revert back to the repo copy...
[09:38] <trappist> k, got it validating.  will now peruse some docs and see that it conforms in other ways... thanks :)
[09:39] <robotgeek> cool
[09:48] <jjesse> what was that link again for desktop guide status?
[09:48] <jjesse> robotgeek: you are the lead on that right?
[09:49] <robotgeek> yessir
[09:49] <robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html
[09:49] <jjesse> robotgeek: email address ?  i have an email from soemone in hungray that wants to help out on kubuntu docs and i would like to includee you in on it as you are lead :)
[09:49] <robotgeek> jjesse: venkatvc at ubuntu.com
[09:51] <jjesse> sent
[09:53] <robotgeek> thanks jjesse 
[09:56] <jjesse> np robotgeek thanks for all the work you do, it means al ot to not be the lone wolf in kubuntu doc land
[09:56] <robotgeek> jjesse: i've kind of decided to stay on the documentation side of stuff. not motu stuff for me
[09:57] <robotgeek> lack of documentation on anything pisses me off now. 
[09:59] <jjesse> grin :)
[10:05] <jjesse> robotgeek: to me that has always been the problem with Open Source software
[10:05] <robotgeek> jjesse: i found out the hard way last year, during my thesis work. lol
[10:08] <robotgeek> is the Ubuntu book downloadable etc? 
[10:09] <jjesse> robotgeek: i haven't heard about that yet
[10:09] <robotgeek> okay
[10:12] <robotgeek> jjesse: can you join #ubuntu-meeting?
[10:13] <jjesse> sure whats up?
[10:14] <robotgeek> jjesse: do you know anything about translations and stuff
[10:14] <jjesse> not really, i know that the docs get put into rossetta
[10:14] <_nagyv> hello! I would like to help you out in the Kubuntu docs, but I am quite new to this type of helping. Is there an easy way to check out the Users Guide? Is there any recommended DocBook editor for 1.0 users?
[10:14] <jjesse> this will be the first release for kubuntu docs in rosetta
[10:14] <robotgeek> _nagyv: quanta is good, so is kate
[10:15] <jjesse> _nagyv: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted is a good place to look
[10:17] <_nagyv> is it a problem if I am not a native english speaker? I would prefer to write in english,but it can need corrections. Hungarian translation is a bit too big to be worthwile.
[10:17] <robotgeek> _nagyv: sure, i can review and upload
[10:22] <jjesse> _nagyv: anything you send to the ubuntu-doc mailing list we will review before committing
[10:58] <IceTox> Anyone here have ever tried running xpde at ubuntu?
[11:03] <Burgwork> IceTox, no, but this is not the correct channel. Best to try #ubuntu
[11:04] <IceTox> tried
[11:04] <IceTox> sorry
[11:04] <IceTox> I've got the solution tho :-)=
[11:04] <IceTox> thanks
[11:27] <Burgwork> hmm, there is not ubuntu.com/com
[11:28] <Burgwork> make that /about
[11:29] <Burgwork> I think I will create a quicktour like doc, in moin, and then move it there
[11:30] <LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks for being at the TB meeting
[11:30] <Burgwork> np
[11:30] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I couldn't make it and I was hoping to be there
[11:30] <mdke_> how does one make a statement to the TB about the freeze?
[11:30] <mdke_> "The TB is asking for a statement from us"
[11:30] <LaserJock> mdke_: they have there own private ML
[11:31] <Burgwork> we write a statement and one of us can present it to them. We can also mail them beforehand
[11:31] <LaserJock> mdke_: could I possibly suggest we do b) ?
[11:32] <LaserJock> I know that the Packaging Guide isn't very important to users but I would really like to see it in Dapper
[11:32] <mdke_> LaserJock, the alternative would be to freeze docs at different times
[11:32] <mdke_> translation of the desktop/server guides is more important than for the PG, so it could start earlier
[11:33] <mdke_> whereas polish on the PG is more important, so it could freeze later
[11:33] <LaserJock> I think 2 week extension would be OK for the PG
[11:33] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if I can make the current freeze
[11:34] <mdke_> ok, we'll discuss on list for a while
[11:34] <mdke_> Burgwork, when do they want the statement?
[11:34] <robotgeek> mdke_: i like the freeze docs at different dates idea
[11:34] <mdke_> robotgeek, will the KDG be ready in a week?
[11:34] <LaserJock> but I agree that more time need is needed translations
[11:34] <Burgwork> mdke_, they gave no time, but I think we can come to an agreement pretty quickly
[11:34] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I agree
[11:34] <mdke_> me too
[11:35] <LaserJock> I just think b) is better than a) for me
[11:35] <robotgeek> mdke_: yes, i will have to get rid of the sections which are not complete/need verification.
[11:35] <Burgwork> I just wasn't prepared to sign off on anything without other doc team members
[11:36] <mdke_> I'm glad you didn't
[11:36] <LaserJock> robotgeek: would 2 extra weeks be enough?
[11:36] <mdke_> 6 weeks is way too long
[11:36] <LaserJock> I agree
[11:37] <mdke_> LaserJock, what about no change for the docs except for the packaging guide, which gets 2 more weeks?
[11:37] <mdke_> I'd like to hear bhuvan's opinion too though on the server guide, and jjesse on other kubuntu docs
[11:37] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i don't know if it would help. my request for help mail has been in there for about a week with no response, i am not sure if 2 more weeks is the right answer
[11:37] <LaserJock> k
[11:40] <LaserJock> mdke_: your suggestion is definitely ok with me.
[11:40] <LaserJock> I just don't want to get anybody mad at me because I *get* two extra weeks ;-)
[11:41] <robotgeek> LaserJock: no, take your time. i expect to learn to package from that one :)
[11:41] <mdke_> i have a further alternative
[11:41] <mdke_> two extra weeks for all docs, and we start translating slightly earlier than that
[11:41] <mdke_> then update the translation templates at freeze
[11:42] <robotgeek> mdke_: i have no idea about details of the translation process, could you explain slightly?
[11:43] <mdke_> we create templates (pot files) and upload them to the archive. these get imported to rosetta, translators translate them, we download the translated version and convert it into xml, ship it
[11:43] <mdke_> during that process, if docs change slightly at an early stage, it's no big deal to reupload, the new strings appear in rosetta
[11:43] <mdke_> but late changes are a Bad Idea
[11:43] <mdke_> hence the freeze
[11:44] <robotgeek> maybe it's a good idea for translators to start with sections that are "complete"
[11:44] <mdke_> there's no _easy_ way of doing that
[11:44] <mdke_> the best plan is to get most things complete, then start them off
[11:45] <mdke_> I'd be fine with 2 weeks slippage
[11:45] <mdke_> let's see what others say
[11:45] <LaserJock> I agree with mdke_ though that 6 weeks is way to long
[11:46] <mdke_> I'm off to bed
[11:46] <mdke_> see ya later
[11:46] <LaserJock> cya mdke_ 
[11:47] <LaserJock> theCore: hi, how's it going?
[11:49] <theCore> LaserJock: pretty good, you?
[11:49] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, very busy.
[11:49] <LaserJock> theCore: are  you going to be able to send me any diffs in the next day or 2?
[11:50] <theCore> LaserJock: maybe
[11:51] <LaserJock> theCore: ok. I'm going to try to start at the Introduction and work my way through.
[11:52] <LaserJock> theCore: I want to get at least the Introduction and Getting Started sections pretty much set today
[11:52] <theCore> LaserJock: btw, why we need a specific kubuntu section ? 
[11:53] <LaserJock> theCore: well, I'm going to see if we need that in the end. There are some differences but I'm not sure if they are big enough to justify a whole section
[11:54] <LaserJock> mostly there are a couple patches for using cdbs and you need to be aware of the kde dependencies
[11:54] <theCore> LaserJock: the guide render quite differently on KDE ... 
[11:54] <LaserJock> I'm going to bug jpatrick or maybe raphink about it to see if we need a secion or not
[11:54] <LaserJock> theCore: does it? good or bad?
[11:55] <theCore> LaserJock: it's outdated
[11:55] <LaserJock> ah, yeah that is because the kubuntu-docs package is a little older than the ubuntu-docs package
[11:56] <LaserJock> they take their svn snapshots at different times
[11:56] <theCore> LaserJock: who is Ankur Kotwal? 
[11:56] <theCore> LaserJock: the original author ?
[11:56] <LaserJock> Ankur wrote the "Intro Developer Doc" that I started with
[11:57] <LaserJock> he recently contacted me and wants to work on the Packaging Guide
[11:57] <LaserJock> he was going to merge some of his material with ours for the example sections
[11:57] <LaserJock> but I haven't heard back from him
[12:00] <theCore> LaserJock: can you take a seconds, and see the guide on 
[12:00] <theCore> kubuntu?
[12:01] <LaserJock> not really. I don't have a kubuntu setup at the moment. Could you (or robotgeek maybe ) put a screenshot somewhere?
[12:01] <robotgeek> LaserJock: screenshot of what?
[12:02] <LaserJock> robotgeek: the Packaging Guide from KDE?
[12:02] <robotgeek> LaserJock: okay, from khelpcenter?
[12:02] <theCore> LaserJock: I got one