[08:07] <enyc> meep
[08:07] <enyc> ?meethings here at 0900 and 1800 GMT(utc) r.e. Potontion 6-week-delay for dapper?
[08:08] <Seveas> yes - that is 2 and 11 hours from now
[08:08] <nalioth> Seveas: that long?
[08:08] <Seveas> nalioth, :
[08:08] <enyc> 07:15 here (gmt) apparntly ;-)
[08:09] <Seveas> Ubugtu, prod
[08:09] <whiprush> howdy folks
[08:09] <jsgotangco> hopefully my meeting ends just in time for the council meeting too
[08:09] <jsgotangco> just in case im not, i'm in favor of the delay :)
[08:10] <enyc> ?cauncil meeting?
[08:10] <Seveas> jsgotangco, it's not a council meeting but a gemeral community meeting
[08:10] <Seveas> CC meeting is next week
[08:10] <jsgotangco> ahh
[08:10] <enyc> ?CC meeting?
[08:10] <jsgotangco> i still vote nonetheless
[08:10] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:11] <Seveas> please be quiet until the meetinf do we don't clutter up the logs
[08:23] <lilo> better
[08:24] <nalioth> lilo: dja have to adjust the cushions?
[08:25] <lilo> nalioth: I ended up in a little tiny window 8)
[08:25] <nicholaspaul> its ok, I'll stand.
[08:25] <lilo> nalioth: had to try again 8)
[08:33] <Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugsnarfer False
[08:55] <G0SUB> soumyadip: :)
[08:56] <soumyadip> G0SUB, back
[08:56] <G0SUB> good
[09:07] <G0SUB> robotgeek
[09:07] <G0SUB> Gloubiboulga
[09:07] <Gloubiboulga> hey G0SUB 
[09:07] <robotgeek> hi G0SUB 
[09:07] <G0SUB> hello!
[09:14] <ranf> hi
[09:17] <robotgeek> poningru: in an hour? date --utc
[09:18] <poningru> arr?
[09:18] <Seveas> 
[09:19] <poningru> yaarrrrr
[09:22] <JaneW> Seveas: nice
[09:23] <Frogzoo>                #
[09:39] <onkarshinde> Is it 9:00 UTC?
[09:40] <Seveas> no, it's 8:40 UTC
[09:40] <freeflying> JaneW: hi
[09:40] <EricNeon> hi all
[09:40] <breizhtux> hi all
[09:40] <JaneW> hi freeflying :)
[09:40] <JaneW> 20 mins to go
[09:40] <Seveas> please remain silent until the meeting starts so we don't clutter up the logs
[09:40] <jsgotangco> let's wait for the meeting so that we wont fill up the log
[09:41] <Treenaks> (let's start logging once the meeting starts)
[09:42] <Frogzoo> 2nd'd
[09:43] <minus273> hi all
[09:43] <BlueT_> hi all :)
[09:44] <Chousuke> hmm.
[09:45] <atie> hi all
[09:46] <cmug> all hi
[09:47] <cmug> i say release it earlier
[09:49] <Spec> Hello.
[09:50] <Seveas> this meeting is supposed to be constructive - any disruptive actions will instantly be rewarded with a ban
[09:50] <onkarshinde> Seveas: :-X
[09:50] <delmonico> good morning from germany btw :)
[09:51] <rob> oh, just in time, lucky I checked!
[09:51] <atie> Seveas, what is agenda?
[09:51] <Seveas> atie, there's only one item
[09:51] <seb128> hi
[09:52] <pitti> hello Ubunteros :)
[09:52] <bustacap> you got the "crowd" part right..
[09:52] <Seveas> hi pitti
[09:52] <pitti> bustacap: hey, wide participation is what this meeting is all about :)
[09:52] <MistaED> hey this meeting starts in 7 mins right? or do i suck at working out UTC?
[09:52] <dAndy> only 132 peeps, way less than #ubuntu for example
[09:52] <Seveas> MistaED, correct
[09:52] <pitti> MistaED: right
[09:52] <MistaED> cool
[09:53] <delmonico> MistaED: yeah, timezones can be bitchy ;)
[09:53] <Seveas> date --utc is your friend
[09:53] <jsgotangco> whiprush: go to sleep
[09:53] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:53] <bustacap> hehe
[09:53] <whiprush> jsgotangco: I am on a plane tomorrow so had to stay up for this one. :D
[09:54] <delmonico> I got a little python script for my regular timezoning needs
[09:54] <jsgotangco> hopefully we don't end up in a moderated chat
[09:54] <rob> delmonico, date --utc
[09:54] <delmonico> date --utc is quicker for utc however ;)
[09:54] <rob> heh
[09:54] <rob> yep
[09:54] <Seveas> jsgotangco, that may happen if it gets too noisy
[09:54] <jsgotangco> Seveas: i agree do as needed
[09:54] <Seveas> we're prepared for everything - even lilo has been hired as security guard ;)
[09:55] <lilo> hehe
[09:55] <christel> :)
[09:55] <jsgotangco> Seveas: i guess moderate it first for the first person to speak
[09:55] <lilo> Seveas: assuming I can keep my eyelids propped open with toothpicks *grin*
[09:55] <Spec> (www.timeanddate.com can convert from UTC to whatever)
[09:55] <poningru> rofl
[09:55] <HedgeMage> Seveas: nah, lilo's the mediator, I'm the bouncer... I'm meaner ;)
[09:55] <Seveas> hehe
[09:55] <lilo> page me if you need me, and otherwise I'll just watch whenever my eyes are open :)
[09:55] <rob> lilo, I'm around :)
[09:55] <lilo> yay :)
[09:55] <Seveas> we should be able to handle it all ourselves
[09:56] <Seveas> and several others of your staff are here too ;)
[09:56] <NoOneInParticula> Greetings all
[09:56] <jsgotangco> cheers
[09:56] <konsu|187> good morning everybody
[09:56] <onkarshinde> G0SUB: I guess you should say something on behalf of India Local team.
[09:57] <G0SUB> onkarshinde: yes, I will. when needed
[09:57] <zakame> hi all
[09:58] <Frogzoo> okey dokey...
[09:59] <Spec> so, uhh, what're we waiting on? :p
[09:59] <Seveas> the person who caused all of this
[09:59] <BlueT_> 30s
[09:59] <enyc> Spec: Time for meeting! ;-)
[10:00] <akai> i guess it'd be mark?
[10:00] <EricNeon> be ready
[10:00] <cmug> 20sec still
[10:00] <elkbuntu> that would be logical
[10:00] <enyc> sabdfl
[10:00] <zakame> lol
[10:00] <Spec> so you think sabdfl will log in, in exactly...10 seconds? :p
[10:00] <jsgotangco> oh boy
[10:00] <Seveas> please be patient
[10:00] <cmug> oh lord I cant wait
[10:00] <Seveas> Mark will arrive shortly
[10:00] <JaneW> sabdfl will be here in a minute
[10:01] <BlueT_> lets ready for rock N roll
[10:01] <akai> Frodo: You're late.
[10:01] <zakame> be patient :) that's just one `i' more than `patent'
[10:01] <Seveas> BlueT_, let me remind you of the mode -trolls that's in this channel
[10:01] <Spec> What country has the largest presence here right now?
[10:01] <jsgotangco> it doesn't matter
[10:01] <Seveas> Spec, please keep irrelevant discussions out of this channel
[10:04] <cmug> *trembletremble*
[10:04] <Seveas> Mr. Murphy seems to like us - we need to wait a bit for sabdfl to show up - please be patient everyone
[10:04] <JaneW> sorry for the delay everyone, sabdfl is just sorting out a connection problem. 
[10:04] <zakame> Seveas++
[10:04] <cmug> Does sabdfl run Dapper?
[10:04] <fabbione> hello
[10:05] <Seveas> welcome fabbione 
[10:05] <fabbione> ok
[10:05] <fabbione> let's make this clear from now
[10:05] <fabbione> anything that is OFFTOPIC = kick/ban from the channel
[10:05] <Seveas> +1
[10:05] <fabbione> it's an important discussion
[10:05] <fla|office> ?
[10:05] <jsgotangco> cool
[10:05] <fabbione> and we need to keep it on track
[10:06] <seb128> hi fabbione :)
[10:06] <Mithrandir> it'd also help if people would refrain from joining and parting and joining again.
[10:06] <enyc> is there a wriiten down FAQ ro agenda for this meeting other than sabdfl's original email?
[10:06] <Frogzoo> plus this could get noisy enough without back chat 
[10:06] <JaneW> yes, please be constructive, or rather keep quiet.
[10:06] <cmug> hide parts/joins from your client
[10:06] <Frogzoo> enyc: see banner
[10:06] <Seveas> May I add to that: if this goes pear shaped: the channel will be set to +mi and everyone can follow it in #ubuntu-overflow
[10:06] <dholbach> enyc: no
[10:06] <mdz> good morning, everyone
[10:06] <mdz> sabdfl is inbound
[10:07] <JaneW> thanks mdz
[10:07] <zakame> hi mdz , dholbach 
[10:07] <mdz> some network problems here at the hotel
[10:07] <robotgeek> morning mdz 
[10:07] <seb128> hey mdz
[10:07] <enyc> Frog/dhol: obay ;-)
[10:07] <ogra> hi matt
[10:07] <cmug> for irssi, /ignore #ubuntu-meeting +JOINS +PARTS
[10:07] <sabdfl> sorry all
[10:07] <sabdfl> my apologies, hotel network issues
[10:07] <jsgotangco> cheers
[10:07] <Seveas> Good morning Mark
[10:08] <Seveas> Everyone please be quiet, sabdfl has the stage
[10:08] <sabdfl> ok, i'm sure there will be a lot of comments
[10:08] <sabdfl> let's try and streamline the process as follows
[10:08] <sabdfl> let's 
[10:08] <sabdfl> if you have a comment on the proposal, please indicate that
[10:09] <sabdfl> just by saying "/me has comment"
[10:09] <sabdfl> seveas, you keep track of everyone who has given that indication
[10:09] <zakame> hello sabdfl 
[10:09] <sabdfl> then, if someone says basically what you intend to, please don't say "me too"
[10:09] <sabdfl> we want to hear all the comments first, then discuss
[10:10] <sabdfl> i'll keep a note of the new ideas
[10:10] <sabdfl> and chair the discussion
[10:10] <sabdfl> ok, everyone who has a distinct comment, please indicate that now
[10:10] <sabdfl> seveas, you keep track, and will give each person a turn. seveas, go last
[10:10] <Seveas> will do
[10:11] <sabdfl> ok, is that everybody?
[10:11] <Seveas> ok, let's do this first come first serve - if anyone who has not yet spoken has a comment - pm me
[10:11] <sabdfl> ok, good idea seveas
[10:11] <Seveas> G0SUB, please state your comment briefly
[10:12] <sabdfl> those of you who have comments, please pre-type them, three lines of 100 chars max, so they can come in quickly when its your turn
[10:12] <sabdfl> if you need more, that's fine, just don't flood and get yourself bounced by freenode
[10:12] <G0SUB> okay, if there is a six week delay in dapper, it will help us in itegrating all the IndLinux work into Dapper, especially those OOo2 fixes, and SCIM work which is very recent
[10:12] <sabdfl> gosub, go ahead
[10:13] <sabdfl> when your comment is done, say "done"
[10:13] <G0SUB> and we'll be able to do a good amount of testing
[10:13] <Seveas> sabdfl, do you want to discuss all comments as they come up?
[10:13] <G0SUB> so that will help us in getting excellent Indic support into Dapper
[10:13] <G0SUB> done
[10:13] <sabdfl> Seveas: no, i'm tracking issues, will chair a discussion of them once we have them on the table
[10:13] <Seveas> ok, thank you G0SUB 
[10:14] <Seveas> ogra, you're up
[10:14] <ogra> the german linux magazine has the following headline this edition: "problem child SuSE, missing drivers, missing features, release postponed, is it much good?"
[10:14] <ogra> i fear the bad press we'll get
[10:15] <ogra> (additionally i'm sad because edubuntu is on schedule, but that doesnt belong here :) )
[10:15] <ogra> done...
[10:15] <sabdfl> thanks ogra
[10:15] <Seveas> people with comments: please /msg me to get added to the list
[10:16] <Seveas> jsgotangco, you're next
[10:16] <jsgotangco> i would like to comment about the way we use terminologies in our repositories, during the g-a-i manual creation, we used several, like channel, section, category, what not, we have discussed this before in -desktop and we'd like to have a concrete title to be used all throughout. I also support the dealy for fixes to SCIM especially for CJK and we're improving at a very fast rate everyday and 6 weeks more would be helpful.
[10:16] <jsgotangco> done
[10:16] <Seveas> thanks Jerome
[10:16] <Seveas> enyc, 
[10:17] <Seveas> Please remember to say 'done' when you finished your comment
[10:17] <enyc> done ;-)
[10:17] <Seveas> and don't expect an 'ack' if you /msg me that you have a comment - I will see it
[10:18] <Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
[10:18] <Frogzoo> just like to say that slippages are hardly unknown in this industry. Furthermore, the delay may actually help raise Ubuntu's profile with discussion on /. etc so I don't see the delay as anything but positive - provided this is a once off, and this slippage isn't seen as setting a precedent for further slippages in the future
[10:18] <Frogzoo> done
[10:18] <Seveas> thank you Frogzoo 
[10:18] <Seveas> dholbach, poke
[10:18] <dholbach> I speak as member of the Desktop team and since we're going to support the desktop VERY long, we'd be happy to get get GNOME 2.14.2 in, which is scheduled for May 29th.
[10:18] <dholbach> As part of the MOTU team I thin that Universe will profit to a high extent from the delayed process, it will give us more time to fix the ~15000 packages.
[10:18] <dholbach> done
[10:19] <Seveas> pschulz01, you're next
[10:19] <pschulz01> Re. Certification - does this include hardware vendors? I would support the delay if it ment that Dapper is supported by OEMs and would allow them to supply machines with Dapper pre-installed world wide. 
[10:19] <pschulz01> done
[10:19] <Seveas> thank you pschulz01 
[10:19] <Seveas> poningru
[10:19] <poningru> my query is is the delay simply wither this will all be polish or will it be actually work as in will the uvf be extended, will doc freeze be extended etc.?
[10:19] <poningru>  comment: already stated
[10:19] <Seveas> poningru, queries can be adressed later
[10:20] <poningru> done
[10:20] <Seveas> bustacap, you're next
[10:20] <bustacap> if Dapper is going to be the first "enterprise" release of Ubuntu, will this mean that new apps and patches to existing apps will be integrated into the released version? if so, could the new features that may delay on-time release of Dapper be released as updates further down the track?
[10:20] <bustacap> done
[10:20] <Seveas> bustacap, that's irrelevant for this meeting
[10:20] <Seveas> but thanks for the comment
[10:20] <Seveas> Mithrandir, you're next
[10:20] <Mithrandir> While having six more weeks available would have been a good thing, I believe we are so late in the cycle that those six weeks won't buy us very much.  We're past UVF, past FF, past UIF so there are only so many things which could be fixed in the available time.  Would we roll back freezes or what would happen?
[10:20] <Mithrandir> (done)
[10:21] <Seveas> thanks Tollef, pitti: you're up
[10:21] <pitti> It doesn't need to be a '6 weeks or nothing' decision, right? Two weeks would help, too, and this wouldn't disturb dapper+1 so much
[10:21] <pitti> done
[10:21] <Seveas> delmonico, you're up
[10:21] <delmonico> dholbach was faster about the universe fixing... done ;)
[10:21] <Seveas> ok
[10:21] <Seveas> seb128, 
[10:22] <seb128> Seveas: sec, style typing 
[10:22] <seb128> Usually we have a desktop rather good but lacking some polish and with some little annoyances at differences place that we don't tackle because we are too busy tackling "real" bugs. We are quite bug flooded at the moment too. Some extra delay would allow to make a much better cleanup job and ship an extra GNOME minor revision
[10:22] <seb128> done
[10:23] <Seveas> fabbione, you're up
[10:23] <fabbione> I personally don't see the press as an issue. We did prove that we can deliver in time already 3 times and we can still do it for dapper. We are proving that we care even more about quality for a long support release. Let's rock and roll for dapper and screw slashdot.
[10:23] <fabbione> My only concern is killing 2 weeks of shyness on each release after dapper to ge
[10:23] <fabbione> t back on track, but i am sure we can manage that somehow, with a stronger commu
[10:23] <fabbione> nity behind us, but still need to be taken into account.
[10:23] <fabbione> done.
[10:23] <Seveas> gaz00, you're next
[10:23] <gaz00> 6 weeks is all fine and good with me, if it means that better QA can be done.  Another bug like the debconf one from the other day would be horrible for the public perception, especially after a 6 week delay on a predefined commitment.
[10:23] <gaz00> You might be able to get a mulligan for the first time, but the bottom line was that it was out for 5 months before someone pointed it out.
[10:24] <gaz00> done
[10:24] <Seveas> thank you, JaneW you're up
[10:24] <JaneW> My question is around the timings subsequent to this release. If we release late ,what happnes to the timing of the spec writing, dev cycle and release (and naming, can it still be 6.10?) of the next version?
[10:24] <JaneW> also I was worried about bad press, but that's been mentioned before
[10:24] <JaneW> done.
[10:24] <Seveas> thanks Jane, nate_ you're next
[10:25] <nate_> I'm for the delay in that it allows for the certs, which may increase the popularity of ubuntu.  My only concern is that if dapper doesn't deliver at the extended release date, that the extra publicity + failure in whatever aspects delayed the release, would = decrease in public opinion of Ubuntu and decrease it's widespread acceptance.  We must weigh this risk.
[10:25] <nate_> done
[10:25] <Seveas> FlannelKing, you're next
[10:25] <Seveas> If I forgot anyone: pleas yell at me in a private message
[10:26] <Seveas> FlannelKing, ?
[10:26] <FlannelKing> Hoary's release was met with some animosity regarding whether it was 'finished' or not at the release, my concern is that if we don't delay, the same feeling of problem caused by cutting corners at the last minute will be in Breezy.  If we do delay, we have to be certain that we absolutely put out a clean product.  
[10:26] <FlannelKing> With the increased coverage recently, I think getting this release to feel finished is key.
[10:26] <FlannelKing> done.
[10:26] <Seveas> thanks, robotgeek you're up
[10:26] <robotgeek> Documentation wise, we are solid for Dapper already. But with some additional time, maybe translations of documentation could be provided at "release time". done
[10:27] <Seveas> _mindspin you're up 
[10:27] <_mindspin> oops, fast,
[10:27] <_mindspin> for press relations, I would say that stickkoing too the truth is always the best
[10:28] <_mindspin> and if the delay is for quality reasosn we only have to communicate it the right way
[10:28] <_mindspin> done
[10:28] <Seveas> thank you _mindspin 
[10:28] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
[10:28] <Seveas> dolson, you;re up
[10:28] <sabdfl> for reference for newcomers
[10:29] <Seveas> dolson, please state your comments briefly
[10:29] <dolson> 6 weeks seems like an arbitrary number to me.. why exactly 6 weeks? also if there is a delay now, why not delay all future releases by 1 month, to allow a point release of GNOME X.X.1 or so? done
[10:29] <Seveas> thanks Dana
[10:29] <Seveas> there's no one on the list anymore except me
[10:30] <sabdfl> go seveas
[10:30] <whiprush> I pm
[10:30] <Seveas> Postponing means losing the 6.04 name, which is already heavily used. A lot of documentation would need to be changed
[10:30] <Seveas> There already are several post-release plans, I for one am having several tutorial sessions about Ubuntu planned in may, which are especially planned right after dapper release so we can hand out CD's
[10:30] <Seveas> 6 weeks is almost 1/4 of the dapper+1 timeframe, not a small piece! This may lead to dapper+1 being postpned and I really don't think it's a good idea to postpone every release, keeping our release schedules close to gnome is a major benefit.
[10:30] <Seveas> whiprush, sorry, go ahead
[10:30] <whiprush> When I talk about Ubuntu to people I say, "You don't get a seperate 'enterprise edition' and 'blow-up-in-your-face edition', you always get our best for every release." I am concerned that this will set a precedent for lopsidedness in future releases/expectations.
[10:30] <sabdfl> anyone who did not get called by seveas and who pm's or who now has a comment, please say "i have a new comment"
[10:30] <whiprush> I think in light of Fedora's move to 9 month cycles and opensuse's delays that we need to get it over with and make the case to upstream GNOME to move to a 9 month schedule and have Ubuntu just follow that. That's an extra 3 months of QA per future release, not just for Dapper. Done.
[10:30] <Seveas> thanks Jorge, raphink-pbook you're up
[10:31] <raphink-pbook> hmm ok
[10:31] <raphink-pbook> my point is that we're very likely to integrate kde 3.5.2 in dapper
[10:31] <raphink-pbook> since it'll be released probably this month
[10:31] <raphink-pbook> I don't think we want it to be like kde was in breezy : too young to be stable
[10:31] <raphink-pbook> on the othert hand, I think delaying by 6 weeks might be hard to get recent apps in Dapper
[10:32] <raphink-pbook> unless we try and keep a very good UVF exception request policy
[10:32] <raphink-pbook> I'm afraid we might get late on some major apps
[10:32] <raphink-pbook> done
[10:32] <sabdfl> seveas?
[10:32] <Spec> i have a new comment
[10:32] <Seveas> victory747, you're up
[10:32] <victory747> I cannot currently recommend Ubuntu to any of my Chinese friends as Simplified Chinese is a mess in installation, font selection and substitution is ugly, and SCIM does not work out of the box.  kubuntu is a complete disaster.
[10:32] <Seveas> sabdfl, several new comments waiting
[10:32] <victory747> If Chinese is not fixed for Dapper, I still will not recommend it for my Chinese friends and colleagues.  China is a big enough potential market to delay to fix.  Done.
[10:33] <Seveas> thank you
[10:33] <Seveas> seb128, you're up
[10:33] <seb128> rosetta has just imported dapper packages so we are lagging on translations at the moment, translators could probably use a delay
[10:33] <seb128> done
[10:33] <Seveas> robotgeek, go ahead
[10:33] <robotgeek> about docus using the version, it is not a big deal as we use entities. it's ionly one change
[10:33] <jordi> victory747: we're beating up abelcheung right now.
[10:33] <robotgeek> done
[10:33] <Seveas> jordi, please stay on topic
[10:34] <Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
[10:34] <Frogzoo> I think the 6 month cycle is worth preserving - 2 releases a year will be well received in the corporate environment. As for the Dapper +1 issue, allowing the 6 weeks slip should mean a lower bar is set for the next release. Also, at this stage, new apps shouldn't be being added.
[10:34] <Frogzoo> done
[10:34] <Seveas> ok - according to my list these were all comments - raise your voice if you still have something to say
[10:34] <sabdfl> ok, i take it that is the end of the comments?
[10:35] <sabdfl> anybody who wanted to make a comment that has not been said, please speak now
[10:35] <Seveas> nate_ go ahead
[10:35] <sabdfl> nate_ has spoken already
[10:35] <sabdfl> ok
[10:35] <Seveas> he just msg'ed me that he has something else
[10:35] <sabdfl> go ahead nate_, but nobody else should repeat
[10:36] <nate_> Something to think about that Frogzoo just mentioned, is why are we delayed?  Have we shot too high?  Can we prevent this in the future?  Can we apply any of these lessons to the immediate release to cut down the release delay?
[10:36] <nate_> done, and sorry :)
[10:36] <ogra> gah
[10:36] <Seveas> thanks nate_ 
[10:36] <Seveas> sabdfl - the microphone is yours again
[10:36] <ogra> lets wait for the sprint people to come online again
[10:36] <ogra> he's off
[10:36] <Seveas> hmm, right
[10:36] <_mindspin> ;-)
[10:36] <JaneW> oops
[10:37] <enyc> hotel network problems again maybe -- how inconvinient!
[10:37] <raphink-pbook> :'
[10:37] <Seveas> as I said - Mr. Murphy oves us
[10:37] <Frogzoo> it's a conspiracy !!
[10:37] <Seveas> please stay calm everyone
[10:37] <nate_> lol, don't panic
[10:37] <jsgotangco> let's not disrupt our good start
[10:37] <Chousuke> :)
[10:38] <nate_> his dapper just took a crapper?
[10:38] <zakame> hmm patience again ppl
[10:40] <JaneW> mvo/mdz and sabdfl are at the l10n sprint in a hotel, hence they are on a dodgy connection - sorry for the inconvenience. They will be back soon.
[10:40] <Seveas> JaneW, next time pick a better hotel ;)
[10:41] <zakame> awww
[10:41] <dholbach> Seveas: all hotels' connections were a bit bumpy until now :)
[10:41] <JaneW> Seveas: we tend to break them ;)
[10:43] <mdz> temporary outage on the hotel internet service here
[10:44] <ogra> mdz, we're patient :)
[10:44] <sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/496
[10:44] <sabdfl> sorry, hotel network was down for a while
[10:44] <sabdfl> did we miss any discussion?
[10:44] <nate_> sabdfl, need me to repost?
[10:44] <Seveas> sabdfl, no we were quiet while you were gone
[10:44] <enyc> sabdfl: not really
[10:45] <raphink-pbook> sabdfl: we were waiting for you :)
[10:45] <sabdfl> ok
[10:45] <sabdfl> have a look at the paste
[10:45] <sabdfl> i will start pulling out the major topics for discussion
[10:45] <sabdfl> hmm...
[10:46] <sabdfl> would it be better for me to run through and respond, and ask mdz to respond, to some of the specific questions?
[10:46] <sabdfl> so we all have the same set of answers?
[10:46] <Seveas> sabdfl, +1 on that
[10:46] <sabdfl> then we can discuss the issues
[10:46] <sabdfl> ok, briefly as i can
[10:47] <sabdfl> G0SUB: +1  on IndLinux, but you will need to respect the new freeze deadlines
[10:47] <sabdfl> we are working on l10n here in London with guys from China and Taiwan and Japan
[10:47] <G0SUB> sabdfl: yes, I agree
[10:47] <sabdfl> so it would be good to collaborate with them for any SCIM and lang-support changes you want, NOW
[10:47] <sabdfl> mvo, abelcheung, jordi, daf are your contact points
[10:47] <sabdfl> next
[10:47] <G0SUB> sabdfl: ok, that's fine
[10:48] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: agreed there are warts, happy to give direction and have you work to fix, respecting freeze deadlines
[10:48] <jsgotangco> cheers we'll work on it
[10:48] <sabdfl> enyc: LSB and other certifications affect kernel and libc, not possible to fix after release
[10:49] <sabdfl> Mithrandir and others: your question is basically "what is slipping, just the release, or some other deadlines too?"
[10:49] <sabdfl> will let mdz and tech board set new dates and deadlines, in summary, there is some room for new work, but not much
[10:49] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: it's also a comment that I think it's too late in the cycle for the extension to give us the full benefit, but yes.
[10:49] <enyc> sabdfl: ahh hrm... so delay needed to check the released version is certified as satisfactory...
[10:50] <sabdfl> pitti: why 6 weeks? 2 weeks does not give us enough time to polish or fix bugs and get the new l10n work in, plus i'm concerned a little about installer testing feedback, and then we hit debconf
[10:50] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed, we have learned for the next dapper-style release, i think
[10:50] <sabdfl> fabbione and others: asking what the impact on future releases will be
[10:51] <sabdfl> *likely* to be some impact, spread over dapper+1 and dapper+2 to get us back to gnome dates
[10:51] <sabdfl> gaz00: i hear you on the horrible root bug :-)
[10:52] <sabdfl> whiprush: we have to figure out how to get the best of both six-month on-time releases, and these few long-term support releases
[10:52] <gaz00> :)   Not that proper QA isn't assumed, but i just wanted to get it out there.  
[10:52] <sabdfl> i agree we don't want to do fedora-style unsupported releases
[10:52] <sabdfl> all our releases get support and 18 months of security, they are all deployable
[10:53] <sabdfl> but it's worthus having the ability to do more stable AND less-stable releases
[10:53] <sabdfl> dapper+1 will be a fun, bring-in-the-bling release, and as a result intrinsically less stable than dapper
[10:53] <sabdfl> but having dapper lets us say to people who want super-stability "use dapper, we are laying the foundations for the next big wave here, and foundations are usually a bit dirty"
[10:54] <Seveas> it'll be warty again ;)
[10:54] <enyc> sounds sensible to me...
[10:54] <sabdfl> victory747: getting chinese to work is one of the main goals of the 1l10n sprint which is a contributor to the delay, so i hope you will work with abelcheung to get it to work perfectly for you and your friends
[10:54] <sabdfl> let me know in two weeks if dapper-in-chinese is not A+ grade for you, ok?
[10:54] <sabdfl> alright
[10:54] <sabdfl> those are the easy questions
[10:55] <sabdfl> (as an aside, we are looking for input from the japanese community, so please contact jordi, daf or mvo)
[10:55] <sabdfl> now we should look at the higher level issues
[10:55] <abelcheung> sabdfl, victory747: looks like the chinese channel is 'activated' too, they are in #ubuntu-zh
[10:56] <sabdfl> let's talk about the impact of the delay on the schedule - doc freeze, ui freeze, etc
[10:56] <sabdfl> mdz, can you comment? ill chair
[10:56] <mdz> do we have representatives from the doc and art teams here today?
[10:56] <mdz> I'd want to confer with them about the details
[10:56] <mdz> but the short answer is that we'll take advantage of the delay to allow additional time for dates which are scheduled relative to the final release date
[10:57] <JaneW> mdz: so freezes already in place, remain so?
[10:57] <mdz> JaneW: well, the localization changes require revisiting feature freeze, essentially
[10:57] <jono> hey
[10:57] <sabdfl> we some specific areas where we are willing to break freeze, like fontconfig (to accommodate chinese / japanese/ korean)
[10:57] <mdz> but we'll treat it more as an exception than a reopening
[10:57] <JaneW> mdz: oic
[10:57] <JaneW> ok
[10:57] <sabdfl> so, exceptions rather than a UVF shift
[10:57] <Seveas> jono, please don't disrupt the discussions
[10:57] <jono> Seveas, sorry
[10:58] <mdz> bustacap,robotgeek,jsgotangco: if you have any specific feedback or needs regarding the revisions to come, please send them to me via email
[10:58] <bustacap> perhaps some additions to certain pieces of doc will need to be made to detail the addition of support for chinese/japanese input..
[10:58] <dholbach> I think the current UVF exception processes are nice and fast (as an answer to raphink's concern)
[10:58] <bustacap> mdz: ok..
[10:58] <mdz> I'll work out the details and send an announcement early next week or so
[10:58] <JaneW> so will the name be 6.05/6.06 as the case my be?
[10:58] <mdz> likewise for any other teams who are affected
[10:58] <sabdfl> i expect some fluidity in SCIM, fontconfig, language-support etc as we push to the new l10n goals
[10:59] <daf> people who want to coordinate on upcoming l10n changes are welcome to join us in #ubuntu-l10n
[10:59] <sabdfl> JaneW, seveas: good point on the 6.04 name. we do need to change it, i'm leaning to 6-06.
[10:59] <robotgeek> 666 :)
[10:59] <Seveas> sabdfl, my concern is not just official documentation
[10:59] <Seveas> '6.04' is already well-used
[10:59] <mdz> the more help we can get from the community to get the localization improvements correct, the first time, the more time we will be able to spend on QA for dapper
[11:00] <sabdfl> Seveas: i think we need to remain consistent in our story that the version numbers are year-and-month
[11:00] <JaneW> agreed, however I don;t think the 6.04 can be a make/break decision here.
[11:00] <jsgotangco> the doc strings are trivial to change on our side if ints needed
[11:00] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: +1
[11:00] <silbs> sabdfl: I think 6.06 is fine, but no reason to more to a "-"
[11:01] <sabdfl> silbs: :-). I think the decimal interpretation of x.yy has caused some confusion, people want to know "when was 6.00 released"
[11:01] <sabdfl> that's a separate discussion though
[11:01] <sabdfl> the point for this discussion is the version should reflect release year and month, agreed
[11:02] <Chousuke> Newcomers: http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log here is a running log of the discussion. It begins from few days prior to this meeting, when I joined this channel, so scroll down to find the actual meeting discussion. 
[11:02] <sabdfl> if dates like UI freeze do get pushed back by TB, then they will not be pushed back for 6 weeks
[11:02] <Whatsisname> isn't the "real deal" later today
[11:02] <sabdfl> this means we will have long in-freeze time for translations, books (jono :-)) etc
[11:02] <jono> :)
[11:02] <Frogzoo> I'd prefer to stick with 6.04 - allowing the slippage to require extra work seems suboptimum
[11:03] <sabdfl> ok, ogra and others talked about PR
[11:03] <sabdfl> we certainly have a good reputation on dates, even in an industry which does not respect them
[11:03] <sabdfl> and i'm unhappy that we will negatively impact on that
[11:03] <ogra> yeah, the suse article is very bad
[11:04] <Whatsisname> yeah, then its all the more important to stick to whats set
[11:04] <ogra> suse has a good reputation too ...
[11:04] <sabdfl> we generally go with time-based, where the time is the most important factor
[11:04] <sabdfl> this works well for our normal releases
[11:04] <ogra> as long as we dont *really rock* with everything else we'll get bad press
[11:04] <sabdfl> but it's not possible to do both time-based and feature-based goals, they conflict
[11:04] <Spec> In light of the debconf bug, I think a delay might be seen as good by the 'media'.
[11:04] <Whatsisname> meh
[11:05] <Treenaks> ogra: which means we need all the small things people whine about (WPA, for one)
[11:05] <Seveas> Whatsisname, please stick to constructive commenting only
[11:05] <ogra> Treenaks, exactly 
[11:05] <jdub> sabdfl: disagree - structure is the key.
[11:05] <sabdfl> so, in this case, i think dapper demands that we set an even high bar in quality, and i'm afraid I've introduced a new goal of l10n late
[11:05] <Whatsisname> i bet the debconf thing will pretty much be forgotten soon
[11:05] <ogra> or stuff like screensaver configuration ... etc
[11:05] <sabdfl> jdub: elaborate?
[11:05] <robotgeek> i think the pro's outweigh the cons. if we release early, with unpolished os causes more "bad press" than delaying with a polished release
[11:05] <ogra> they will very closely look on missing features
[11:05] <sabdfl> Whatsisname: it's a huge slip on our part, i doubt it will be forgotten soon, its rather humbling
[11:06] <pitti> ogra: right, we'll have a lot of missing features
[11:06] <daf> robotgeek: indeed -- short term bad press now vs. long term loss of reputation
[11:06] <WildTangent> why not do as microsoft does? patch :)
[11:06] <gora> sabdfl: l10n goal is good to hear. There are some Indic l10n items missing.
[11:06] <bustacap> +1 WildTangent 
[11:06] <ogra> pitti, thats what i mean ... we cant risk missing features if we delay 6 weeks
[11:06] <Seveas> WildTangent, that's done already - and please stick to the topic - the debconf bug is a completely different discussion
[11:06] <Whatsisname> it was a slip up yes but there was a response almost immediatly to it
[11:06] <sabdfl> ok, so to summarize on the PR position:
[11:06] <jdub> sabdfl: i don't believe time-based and feature-based goals conflict, but it requires a structured approach to get right. unfortunately, time-based has often been approached in opposition to feature-based, which is counter-productive.
[11:06] <Whatsisname> no sort of "wait until the third tuesday of the month" or any similar shenanigas
[11:07] <mdz> Seveas: I think WildTangent was suggesting implementing our new feature goals via post-release patches as an alternative to a delay
[11:07] <WildTangent> Seveas, im talking about the release in general. if its not finished, then finish it later
[11:07] <sabdfl>  - we should message clearly that we are delaying to meet higher standard of quality, testing, l10n, because people want Dapper to be "exceptional"
[11:07] <Seveas> WildTangent, my apologies then
[11:07] <mdz> however there are good reasons why we need to do these particular changes prior to release
[11:07] <bustacap> +1 mdz 
[11:07] <sabdfl>  - we should work hard to make sure that Dapper is , in fact, exceptional
[11:07] <robotgeek> mdz: what about people on dailup. they get 100 mb updates after 3 weeks?
[11:07] <Whatsisname> WildTangent, "finish it later" is bad news
[11:07] <bustacap> Whatsisname, "add it later" is the real point..
[11:07] <victory747> l10n and Chinese support (and the like) won't help with press, but it will help with people in those places adopting ubuntu
[11:07] <mdz> when it comes to localization, we need to tightly integrate the changes with the installer and live CD environments; that is, these are features which need to go on the final CD images
[11:07] <jdub> sabdfl: furthermore, i don't think this slip should impact dapper+1. ;-) [ultimately, i think this is an exception that can prove our rule, and can be messaged positively.] 
[11:07] <WildTangent> i believe it is important we stick somewhat to our 6 month release cycle
[11:08] <_mindspin> finish it the best should be the approach
[11:08] <ogra> jdub, how wouldnt it impact dapper+1 ?
[11:08] <Seveas> post-release patches won't work for certification
[11:08] <Whatsisname> bustacap, well, theres going to be "add it later" going on always, whether you delay your release date or not, a good thing in my opinion
[11:08] <ogra> we cant start working on it
[11:08] <mdz> post-release patches can't improve the user experience with the CD images, especially those which go out via shipit
[11:08] <sabdfl> jdub: am willing to consider making dapper+1 a super-short cycle, would be.... edgy :-)
[11:08] <bustacap> is 6 weeks enough time to include a solid SCIM?
[11:08] <JaneW> I also obliquely alluded to the timing of the next spec writing sprint to plan and spec Dapper +1. Will we need to shift that out too?
[11:08] <WildTangent> mdz: very true
[11:08] <nate_> is it possible to release l10n after the release?  that would satisfy those who don't need it and wouldn't delay the receiving of it by those who do need it
[11:08] <WildTangent> didnt think of that
[11:08] <jdub> ogra: shouldn't impact the schedule, sorry.
[11:08] <pitti> mdz: not even to mention that we don't have the manpower to develop two releases
[11:08] <jsgotangco> bustacap: good enough
[11:09] <sabdfl> JaneW: yes, the dapper+1 spec meeting will take place just after dapper release, not before
[11:09] <JaneW> ok, thanks
[11:09] <Kream> As someone who works with end users and has to choose between recommending Ubuntu to someone or (with a heavy heart) asking people that don't deal well with "newness" to stick with Windows, polish will help (U|K)buntu compete with Vista. That's very important, since the cost of Vista will be $1 here, just like it is with XP.
[11:09] <mdz> pitti: we do, but not without significant compromises
[11:09] <sabdfl> nate_: some translations can be updated after release, yes, that's what we have rosetta and language packs for, but some of the plumbing has to be in place at the time of release, which is what we are working on
[11:10] <nate_> sabdfl, ahhh
[11:10] <jono> from the perspective of someone who has worked as a journalist in the Open Source press for five years, if we release a lower quality Dapper, that will net far worse press than a delay - proposing a delay and focussing the message around 'delaying to improve the quality' will net only minor negative press
[11:10] <Whatsisname> Kream, try making it clear to them that free software will always be free, Windows won't be $1 always
[11:10] <mdz> nate_: translations, yes, but the localization changes we're discussing here are system-level changes, not translations
[11:10] <Whatsisname> i'm sure you've tried
[11:10] <sabdfl> thanks jono
[11:10] <sabdfl> can we call an end to the PR discussion? any further comments on that?
[11:10] <ubijtsa> the reason a lot of people have chosen Ubuntu over Debian (or other distros) in the strict 6 months release cycle. Slipping on it once and then catching up immediately won't be a problem, but slipping continously will mean lost community support - Ubuntu will be seen as 'just another Debian that takes ages to release'
[11:11] <nate_> so, I'm not currently involved in helping with ubuntu, how can i get involved to help it get finished sooner?
[11:11] <ogra> jono, that will only work if the release is 100% .... not one missing feature etc
[11:11] <GNAM> don't you think there's a need for an official 5.10.1 version with bug fixed?
[11:11] <sabdfl> nate_: check out the "participate" web page on ubuntu.com
[11:11] <mdz> nate_: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate (let's try to stay on-topic here)
[11:11] <Seveas> GNAM, please stick to the topic
[11:11] <nate_> srry
[11:11] <dholbach> ubijtsa: I daresay we've been really strict on release dates, freeze dates etc until now - I can't see it happen to change (just like that).
[11:11] <pitti> GNAM: this evening's TB
[11:11] <sabdfl> ok, next topic
[11:11] <sabdfl> let's discuss the idea of "dapper being a different kind of release"
[11:11] <ubijtsa> dholbach: point taken, just voicing concern
[11:12] <Whatsisname> is this the "official community meeting?" i thought it was later
[11:12] <sabdfl> higher quality, longer support
[11:12] <sabdfl> how do we communicate that to users?
[11:12] <mdz> Whatsisname: there are two (equal) meetings, to allow for global participation
[11:12] <Whatsisname> ah ok
[11:12] <sabdfl> how do we stay true to the idea that *every* release is usable, supported, high quality?
[11:12] <Whatsisname> mmm timezones
[11:12] <nate_> maybe integrate a codename into it that will make them ask?  like trail it with 'bedrock'
[11:12] <bustacap> sabdfl, can the "enterprise" release of Dapper be released alongside Dapper+1 -> it seems there is a lot being thrown into Dapper in the final hours..
[11:12] <nate_> dapper bedrock, or something
[11:12] <Seveas> Whatsisname, 2nd warning: please stay on topic - the meeting is already busy as is
[11:12] <Whatsisname> sorry :(
[11:13] <sabdfl> but at the same time, have dapper-style releases that are long term supported and obviously higher-input
[11:13] <whiprush> sabdfl: that thing you explained about the foundation and being dirty makes sense to me.
[11:13] <Seveas> sabdfl, by calling them enterprise release?
[11:13] <bustacap> yes, 6 months after the dirty foundations are released to clean and release as enterprise
[11:13] <nate_> foundation might convey the wrong meaning and enterprise is overused in my opinion
[11:14] <sabdfl> Seveas: somewhere on the website i'm quoted as saying "we don't do 'free and nasty' releases with 'pay-for enterprise' releases" :-)
[11:14] <JaneW> cornerstone?
[11:14] <nate_> JaneW, I like that
[11:14] <Spec> Having a delay and calling it an enterprise release both mean that dapper must truley be 100% ready after the delay.
[11:14] <jono> there has been lots of press about Dapper competing with Vista - to get that to users we need to (a) visually identify Dapper is unique and (b) deliver the key features that are lacking such as easily accessing windows disks
[11:14] <bustacap> Spec, I don't think 6 weeks is a good enough period to "enterprise" a release
[11:14] <jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
[11:15] <sabdfl> jono: the tricky bit is that for a dapper-style release we can in fact only work on fewer new features if we also want the quality standard to be high
[11:15] <vuntz_> while doing an "enterprise release" is great, I don't believe everyone in the community is interested in the "enterprise" goal
[11:15] <Seveas> jdub, awesome 
[11:15] <sabdfl> so the cool-new-stuff needs to come in early in the meta-cycle (dapper+1, dapper+2)
[11:15] <bustacap> jono, I believe Dapper+1 will be the true competitor with Vista (Xgl, etc..)
[11:15] <sabdfl> vuntz_: i agree
[11:15] <nate_> Ubuntu Cornerstone, or Ubuntu Bedrock, something that conveys a sort of permanance and strength
[11:15] <ogra> sabdfl, what about the cool new stuff thats missing in dapper and that we wont deliver ...
[11:15] <nate_> then change for subsequent releases
[11:16] <sabdfl> i think the six-month "bleeding edge" releases are useful for a LOT of people who want new desktop functionality
[11:16] <bustacap> vuntz, I think there is a need for Enterprise out there..
[11:16] <sabdfl> and if all our releases we dapper-style, we would lose those users
[11:16] <jono> sabdfl, agreed - so we need to prioritise features that users are stumped by - as an example instead of focussing on edge cases we need to look at the forums and identify common sources of confusion
[11:16] <ogra> sabdfl, i'm mainly working on the screensaver fron, i get a lot of bashing for th emissing features alreaddy
[11:16] <jdub> sabdfl: remember when we talked about six month release cycles and four version release cycles? i think that's worth coming back to given this experience.
[11:16] <janimo> emphasize that dapper takes ubuntu to a new level
[11:16] <jsgotangco> are we still in control?
[11:16] <bustacap> sabdfl, that's good for home users, corporate users want an enterprise edition..
[11:16] <Spec> Enterprise conveys 'server-class' to me, which has nothing to do with X..
[11:16] <ogra> sabdfl, and we wont have the features people are asking for, simply because upstream isnt ready for that yet 
[11:16] <bustacap> enterprise desktop edition
[11:16] <vuntz_> bustacap: it's not about the need. It's about the community. The community interests might be in conflict with the enterprise goal
[11:17] <Whatsisname> additionally I find giving the adjective "enterprise" to something inplies one is better than the other
[11:17] <Seveas> vuntz_, since when are enterprise users not part of the community?
[11:17] <vuntz_> and IMHO, community is more important than this goal in the long term
[11:17] <nate_> we could use mockingly similar ones to vista?
[11:17] <gaz00> if we start delaying dapper+1, the comparisons to vista will only increase ;)  
[11:17] <mdz> jono: we do, and we have
[11:17] <Whatsisname> and I think all users should always have the full power of free software at their disposal
[11:17] <vuntz_> Seveas: since the day when the enterprise users don't even know it's called Ubuntu :-)
[11:17] <bustacap> the community seem to be focussed on the home user - ubuntu is good enough quality for use in the corporate environment - where is the backup for the statements for getting it into the business environment..
[11:17] <sabdfl> jdub: we can't commit to dapper+4 being another dapper, 'cause we don't know what upstream will be doing in two years
[11:17] <ubijtsa> sabdfl: what about consistently make every fourth release the ultra-stable, deeply QA'd release. most corporates do not want to roll out new releases every six months, they do it every two years, fitting in with the 'every fourth release' of Ubuntu ?
[11:17] <jono> mdz, exactly, so the delay can continue to refine this integration
[11:17] <sabdfl> but we can commit to supporting dapper till upstream has another moment of calm
[11:18] <jono> there is no way to drag Dapper up to be a dramatic competitor to Vista so close to release
[11:18] <jono> users just want consistancy and better integration
[11:18] <jdub> sabdfl: but we need to aim for a long-term supported release over (at the very least) two cycles
[11:18] <mdz> jono: unfortunately, the broadest issues in those arenas seem to be non-technical problems (software we can't or won't include, for example)
[11:18] <Spec> ubijtsa: +1
[11:18] <bustacap> ubijtsa, my point exactly - 6 month updates to corporate desktops are just not going to happen - it's ludicrous
[11:18] <_mindspin> yup
[11:18] <jdub> even if we wanted to use the word "enterprise", we don't realistically reach those expectations anyway - dapper is going to rock as a platform for edge services, specific backend services, workstations and some desktop tasks.
[11:19] <jono> mdz, sure, and this is where it is essential to hook our fine doc and community resources in
[11:19] <mdz> ubijtsa: we've based the Dapper long-term decision on the convergence of solid and supportable releases coming out of the open source world
[11:19] <sabdfl> ubijtsa, Spec: see my point to jdub, we cant commit to a regular corporate-style release, because it depends on what is going on with kernel, X, gcc, openoffice
[11:19] <bustacap> jdub, I think there is a need for an enterprise-quality desktop - not server - to be released shortly..
[11:19] <sabdfl> and gnome and kde
[11:19] <mdz> ubijtsa: we don't have control over what happens there, so it's difficult for us to commit to a fixed schedule for such long-term commitments
[11:19] <jono> sabdfl, let me ask, how do you see Dapper different to Breezy from the user's perspective?
[11:20] <FlannelKing> if, as ubijtsa suggested, every fourth release is a 'enterprise' release, we could always delay that one release a few months, .06 instead of .04, which would not only give us extra time to finish it, but also set it apart from our normal releases, so people would be able to distinguish higher quality releases, without memorizing names.
[11:20] <ubijtsa> mdz, sabdfl: point taken
[11:20] <jdub> bustacap: we'll ship a long-term supported desktop - but for various reasons, we should not call it 'enterprise'
[11:20] <sabdfl> jono: fewer "new" features, better polish, better stability, better certifications, longer support
[11:20] <Seveas> we're going a bit offtopic people - the current question is 'how to convey that dapper is different but all our releases are good'
[11:20] <bustacap> jdub, however it is denoted, the long-term supported desktop needs to be supported in other ways as well, other than the current "support" offered..
[11:20] <sabdfl> i'm thinking we should call it 6-06 LS (for "long support"). something in the version number to distinguish it would help
[11:21] <jsgotangco> where does our server edition fall into place here???
[11:21] <bustacap> sabdfl, and release the LS version at a later date
[11:21] <jono> sabdfl, so Dapper is less a dramatic new release and instead more refinement, better integration and the solidification of edge services? I suspect our users expect that to - they look at the changes from warty to hoary to breezy and expect similar things for dapper
[11:21] <Spec> sabdfl: -1
[11:21] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: VLS :-p
[11:21] <jdub> jsgotangco: same thing, different install media
[11:21] <sabdfl> jono: just can't have crack and crisp in the same release
[11:21] <Spec> I think the versioning should stay consistent, always. (Year.Month)
[11:22] <sabdfl> Spec: yes, agree, im proposing the LS as a way of distinguishing 6-06 from 6-10 for people who are Not In The Know.
[11:22] <dolson> reading on the forums, the end-user community seem to be 90% in favor of the delay - and a lot of them seem to think that it means they'll get WPA and other features added in. I think if it is delayed and the new features aren't added, they will be disenchanted with Dapper
[11:22] <jono> sabdfl, exactly, and I think users are less after crack and just want better refinement and stability, which is exactly what Dapper has had so far
[11:22] <poningru> I think the change in the versioning should be enough to convey the meaning of long support/stability
[11:22] <bustacap> 6.06 Milestone - released 3 months after Dapper is released
[11:22] <sabdfl> dolson: we could take WPA if we got community contributions of packages that Just Work and pass review
[11:23] <sabdfl> soon
[11:23] <gaz00> why not just use 6-00?  it's not conflicting with year.month, but does signify a big change?  
[11:23] <Seveas> sabdfl, argh, please don't tempt me...
[11:23] <JaneW> gaz00: that implies a 6th release
[11:23] <poningru> by change I mean 6.04 -> 6.06
[11:23] <mjg59> I think bikeshedding over the version number is not the best possible use of time right now
[11:23] <mdz> gaz00: we've debated release numbering schemes extensively; there was a recent mailing list thread about it.  let's not rehash that here
[11:23] <sabdfl> Seveas: tempt you to make high quality packages? that's *exactly* what i'm doing :-)
[11:23] <gaz00> ok
[11:23] <sabdfl> mjg59: point
[11:24] <sabdfl> ok, any other suggestions as to how we can make the dapper release distinct?
[11:24] <juliux|cebit> why we can make 2 releases? one 6.04 for the normal users and one for the enterprise version?
[11:24] <whiprush> I think a key to the point that should be made is that dapper is a culmination of things learned from warty/hoary/breezy.
[11:24] <dholbach> juliux|cebit: because we can't maintain <n> branches
[11:24] <mdz> dolson: we have been very explicit and specific about the reasons for the delay
[11:24] <whiprush> I don't think that much is obvious with dapper so far.
[11:24] <jono> sabdfl, I think a visually distinct release is essential
[11:24] <juliux|cebit> dholbach, the second version can be and update for the firste one
[11:24] <whiprush> I think most people think it's just another cycle.
[11:24] <jono> dapper needs to look different and exciting
[11:24] <jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
[11:24] <jono> and this is happening
[11:24] <Whatsisname> jono yeah i was thinking something visual too
[11:24] <sabdfl> juliux|cebit: we did consider branching, 6.04 on time and then a later "LS" release, but we don't have the resources
[11:24] <Seveas> jono, it's orange already 
[11:24] <Kamion> juliux|cebit: that essentially doubles our QA effort, which is critical-path
[11:24] <Whatsisname> like a different theme or something for one
[11:25] <Frogzoo> Does the Ubuntu community have sufficient resources for an _additional_ corporate release, on top of the current 2 releases a year?
[11:25] <jono> Seveas, heh
[11:25] <Seveas> Frogzoo, no
[11:25] <Whatsisname> I know they don't want to stray from the normal naming convention as well so thats probably out
[11:25] <dolson> mdz: yes, but the community doesn't seem to listen all the time. despite me saying it a few times to them, they still say things like "I'm in favor we need WPA" and such. so.. I hear ya, but end-users don't understand this
[11:25] <ogra> dolson, ++
[11:25] <marty> Just as a point from being a Ubuntu user, advocate and fan for over 18 months (but not a developer) I have just found out in this meeting that the version number is year.month. my guess is that 80% also are blissfully ignorant
[11:25] <jono> if dapper was to be released with a really unique and eye catching visual theme, it would automatically be seen as unique
[11:25] <robotgeek> dolson: ++
[11:25] <jono> that is exactly what novell have done with SLED
[11:25] <juliux|cebit> Kamion, sabdfl but the problem is that every normal people think that the next version is released in april and not in june
[11:25] <Spec> XGL itself is revolutionary enough to make anyone think a computer running it is 'enterprise class', but that's not ready yet.
[11:25] <sabdfl> dolson: can you get working on WPA packages with seveas?
[11:25] <whiprush> yes, I think it needs to be made clear that the delay doesn't mean Your Pet Feature(tm) will be in.
[11:26] <jsgotangco> haha
[11:26] <Seveas> sabdfl, no - I have no time - my graduation is in the way of that
[11:26] <dolson> sabdfl: I don't have any need of the package, I'm just speaking in interest of combatting negative word-of-mouth
[11:26] <sabdfl> dolson: ok, well spread the word that a contribution will make it happen
[11:26] <ogra> that will bite back if we delay and dont have it ... but upstream isnt ready to include irt
[11:26] <bustacap> Spec, off-topic - but Xgl definately would not go on any of my corporate desktops
[11:26] <dolson> sabdfl: I can't work on it, as I don't hav any way to test it. but I will do that
[11:26] <sabdfl> ok
[11:26] <mdz> dolson: the process by which we set our development goals is incredibly transparent; there should be no surprises.  not sure what more we could do there, but we're straying from the topic a bit
[11:26] <sabdfl> ok
[11:27] <sabdfl> I *think* that's all the major issues that were raised
[11:27] <sabdfl> anybody else have a broad topic that needs discussion?
[11:27] <G0SUB> the new freeze dates?
[11:28] <jsgotangco> we'll just wait them
[11:28] <Seveas> How/When are you/we going to decide about whether to delay or not?
[11:28] <Spec> Is it definite that if a delay takes place, dapper+1's release will be early?
[11:28] <jdub> Spec: it can only be on time or late. ;-)
[11:28] <JaneW> will there be a vote after the meeting later, or just a general consensus feeling after both sittings?
[11:28] <Seveas> Spec, that has been answered already: there might be a delay for dapper +1 and +2, but that's not sure
[11:28] <Spec> err, on time = short cycle
[11:28] <sabdfl> Spec: it will be less than six months after dapper, only question is how much less
[11:28] <mdz> G0SUB: not finalized yet; I've solicited feedback via email
[11:29] <G0SUB> ok
[11:29] <jono> not broad, but one glaring problem with Dapper is that it does not seem to detect Windows partitions easily - this is a showstopper for many of clients - they don't know what an /etc/fstab is and don't want to know
[11:29] <theoddone> jono +1
[11:29] <sabdfl> jono: if you can get some guys from the community that you trust to put together patches on that front they will get high level review, i can promise that much
[11:29] <mdz> jono: we're not here to discuss random feature ideas for Dapper; we have specific goals in mind which we feel justify a delay, no more
[11:29] <jono> the installer should detect this
[11:29] <Whatsisname> well someone needs to step up and develop free ntfs write support
[11:29] <jono> mdz, ok
[11:29] <Kamion> jono: I'm familiar with that problem
[11:29] <jono> Kamion, :)
[11:30] <sabdfl> Whatsisname: that and a pony :-)
[11:30] <sabdfl> now
[11:30] <Whatsisname> lol
[11:30] <Kamion> jono: talk with me about it later once I'm out from under this security thing
[11:30] <jono> Kamion, ok
[11:30] <sabdfl> thank you all, i think that's a good discussion
[11:30] <Seveas> (ntfs write support is available in dapper already)
[11:30] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: ponies for the whole distro team!
[11:30] <sabdfl> TB, CC, anybody care to comment now?
[11:30] <ogra> Mithrandir++
[11:30] <mdz> Kamion: when you're out from under this security thing, you're back under your previous workload ;-)
[11:30] <jsgotangco> cool
[11:30] <Whatsisname> Seveas: free write support?
[11:30] <mjg59> sabdfl: Final decision still falls to the TB?
[11:30] <Spec> captive?
[11:30] <jdub> ogra: dude, dapper was going to be released on my birthday. this is a complete sham. ;-)
[11:30] <ogra> jdub, gah
[11:31] <Spec> jdub: well, in that case, i see no reason for a delay...
[11:31] <sabdfl> mjg59: no, CC, but TB gets to break down the extra time on different schedule freezes
[11:31] <mjg59> Ok
[11:31] <Kamion> I'm going to wait until the next round of discussion before making up my mind, I think
[11:31] <Seveas> vuntz_, good point
[11:31] <sabdfl> vuntz_: TB decision
[11:32] <Spec> thanks for listening to the community, see ya
[11:32] <sabdfl> CC, TB, done?
[11:32] <Seveas> sabdfl, how about making an almost-there release apri 20 and call for wide testing?
[11:32] <Kamion> I'm still rather concerned about the PR impact and loss of the reputation we've built up; think it has to be handled with considerable sensitivity
[11:32] <Spec> Seveas: +1
[11:32] <sabdfl> Seveas: definitely, will call for wide testing of the first Flight that has everything we want in it
[11:32] <ogra> Kamion++
[11:32] <JaneW> Kamion: ditto
[11:32] <vuntz_> a lot of people are expecting the prerelease to be out really soon now
[11:32] <bustacap> if the decision was made to delay, a well-written, well-distributed press release should follow
[11:32] <jsgotangco> we made a delay before if i remember right? but its just 2 weeks i think
[11:33] <_mindspin> the pr thing means, that dapper should be nearly perfect
[11:33] <bustacap> haha @ _mindspin 
[11:33] <sabdfl> Kamion: would it help if TB and CC all have to sign off on the communication of this?
[11:33] <_mindspin> ;-)
[11:33] <mdz> I've weighed in already, but for public record...I recommended a 6-week delay as the best way to achieve the new localization goals and to give us more breathing room for stabilization
[11:34] <Kamion> sabdfl: certainly the more eyes on it the better
[11:34] <theoddone> kamion +1
[11:34] <sabdfl> ok, thanks Easterners, we'll catch the Westerners at 18:00 UTC
[11:34] <jono> right, thanks for hearing my thoughts folks, I best get back to working
[11:34] <mdz> vuntz_: the announcement of the proposal for a delay was widely publicized, and the final announcement of a new release date will be even more so
[11:34] <Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for listening to us
[11:34] <bustacap> cheers for the consultation
[11:34] <JaneW> Thanks for the courtesy everyone. That was well handled for a 200-strong group.
[11:34] <dolson> if the decision is made by the entire Ubuntu community, the delay can't really be too negative - everyone was invited to comment on it, and while I'm not in favor of a delay, I think the PR should mention that it was concensus
[11:34] <Seveas> I've never seen a CEO take the community this serious
[11:34] <sabdfl> Seveas: thank you for your huge contribution
[11:34] <jsgotangco> cheers
[11:35] <ogra> sabdfl++
[11:35] <dolson> oh it's over
[11:35] <Seveas> dolson, for now
[11:35] <_mindspin> hehe
[11:35] <jono> sabdfl, good job, there :)
[11:35] <robotgeek> dolson: you can join again, later :)
[11:35] <G0SUB> sabdfl: you rock! and Ubuntu rocks with you :)
[11:35] <sabdfl> :-)
[11:35] <ajmitch> dolson: next one in a few hours
[11:35] <Seveas> there will be another meeting at 18:00 UTC
[11:35] <sabdfl> thanks guys
[11:35] <Seveas> We will be better prepared for that
[11:35] <Seveas> ogra, don't
[11:35] <highvoltage> i just want to say, as a community member, that I have complete confidence in the ubuntu team and that I will trust whichever conclusion you reach.
[11:35] <dolson> robotgeek: it's 5:37am and I didn't sleep yet. I don't know I can be here :)
[11:35] <sabdfl> cheers all, see some of you again this evening, thanks for taking the time to weigh in
[11:35] <robotgeek> dolson: same here :)
[11:35] <ogra> Seveas, no space cookie :)
[11:35] <Seveas> I have a dentist appointment at 3:30 UTC :/
[11:35] <whiprush> meetings like this is why ubuntu rocks. thanks everyone!
[11:35] <Seveas> rootcanal
[11:36] <_mindspin> uuuh
[11:36] <gaz00> thanks everyone....   twas my first intro to the ubuntu community, and it was more than interesting and worth getting up at 2am
[11:36] <sabdfl> Seveas: i would swap you if you would clear my inbox :-)
[11:36] <rob> I'm amazed at how well behaved everyone has been
[11:36] <Lappi> highvoltage+
[11:36] <ajmitch> Seveas: someone else can be appointed as bouncer :)
[11:36] <cmug> So what was the outcome
[11:36] <NoOneInParticula> I am a complete and total linux newbie, and from a newbie POV, I don't see the delay as negative at all. It shows that ubuntu us concerned with turning out the best possible product. Am looking forward to the next release
[11:36] <Seveas> I'll try to write a summary of this meeting before the next one takes place
[11:36] <sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much
[11:36] <Seveas> cmug, there's no outcome yet
[11:36] <rob> hardly even a need for +m, very polite
[11:36] <dolson> theoddone: is this theoddone from i.o?
[11:36] <Seveas> sabdfl, you're very welome 
[11:36] <theoddone> Seveas: thanks
[11:36] <robotgeek> yes, i stand corrected on the +m
[11:37] <cmug> what are the choices
[11:37] <Seveas> Please move to other channels for further discussion
[11:37] <Seveas> so I can clean out this mess ;)
[11:37] <Whatsisname> sure
[11:37] <cmug> k
[11:37] <NoOneInParticula> bye all 
[11:37] <Whatsisname> can we idle
[11:37] <EricNeon> bye
[11:37] <ogra> Whatsisname, sure
[11:38] <olive``> 
[11:42] <Seveas> prod
[12:02] <Chousuke> Should've ignored joins and parts during the meeting.
[12:03] <Chousuke> They clutter the log :/
[12:04] <sandis> Does anybody know, what will happen to dapper +1 if dapper is delayed?
[12:04] <HiddenWolf> Chousuke: what was decided?
[12:04] <Chousuke> HiddenWolf: They will not decide anything yet
[12:04] <HiddenWolf> Chousuke: certainly the mood of the meet pointed in some direction
[12:05] <Chousuke> HiddenWolf: This is only for community input before the decision is made.
[12:05] <Whatsisname> HiddenWolf, they also have another meeting later
[12:05] <Chousuke> there's a link to the log in the topic. you can go read it. :)
[12:05] <HiddenWolf> I figured, topic is hard to miss. :)
[12:06] <HiddenWolf> actually, there is no link there.
[12:06] <Chousuke> hm
[12:06] <Chousuke> oh, Seveas changed the link
[12:06] <Chousuke> topic*
[12:06] <Seveas> Chousuke, I'm writing summary etc
[12:07] <Chousuke> ok
[12:07] <Chousuke> anyway, http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log
[12:07] <Chousuke> it's actually my log of this channel, so it has some useless stuff from prior to the meeting as well.
[12:08] <Chousuke> Also, times are UTC+2 :P
[12:20] <kenweill> hows the meeting?
[12:22] <Hobbsee> kenweill: it's over :P
[12:22] <Hobbsee> kenweill: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
[12:22] <Jack-Ho> :P
[12:26] <kenweill> owh... sorry...
[12:26] <kenweill> whats with 18:00 UTC?
[12:27] <ubijtsa> kenweill: round two of the meeting
[12:28] <ktogias> Seveas, Where will your summary be posted when done? (Reading the hole log is a little hard)
[12:28] <Seveas> ktogias, I'm working on it at the wiki
[12:29] <Seveas> I'll put a link in the topic when done
[12:29] <ktogias> ok
[12:32] <Hobbsee> ktogias: heh - i prefer reading it off the logs...
[12:50] <tmahmood> hi.
[12:50] <Hobbsee> hey tmahmood 
[12:53] <tmahmood> guess i missed the whole meeting?
[12:54] <ogra> tmahmood, there is another one at 18:00 UTC
[12:54] <Hobbsee> yeah, you did :P
[12:54] <Hobbsee> meeting logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
[12:54] <tmahmood> hm...
[12:54] <tmahmood> thanks :)
[12:56] <Hobbsee> no problems
[12:59] <AnThOnYhO> hi all  gnome2.14 have released
[01:10] <tmahmood> when the second meeting starts? its already 18:00 here
[01:10] <Chousuke> 18:00 UTC
[01:10] <Chousuke> in six hours.
[01:11] <tmahmood> ok... :)
[01:12] <tmahmood> see you guys than
[01:12] <tmahmood> bye
[01:26] <konsu|187> bye
[01:37] <pain|rm183> bye, cu hopefully later this day
[01:51] <Simbioz> hello al
[01:51] <Simbioz> hello all
[01:51] <olive> hello alll
[01:51] <Simbioz> hi
[01:51] <Simbioz> olive
[01:51] <Simbioz> you girl ?
[01:52] <Seveas> this is a channel for meetings, not for general chatter
[01:53] <Seveas> rem Simbioz 
[02:31] <rturner> 4 and a half hours to go...
[02:33] <leif_dyvik> anyone know how many people where at the first meeting?
[02:34] <ogra> ~200
[02:34] <Klaidas> so this meeting will be the one where the desicion will be made, right?
[02:34] <rturner> i assume that...
[02:34] <Seveas> Klaidas, no
[02:35] <Seveas> Please read the summary of the first meeting
[02:35] <Seveas> (and please don't speak in here when there's no meeting)
[02:35] <Klaidas> ok, sorry
[02:58] <Luggy> foo
[03:03] <raphink> bar
[03:04] <highvoltage> foobar foobar foobar!
[03:08] <ubijtsa> Seveas: ?
[03:08] <Seveas> ubijtsa, ?
[03:08] <ubijtsa> foobar? :)
[03:08] <ubijtsa> "tell them off I say!" ;-)
[03:08] <Seveas> highvoltage, hasn't had his medicine yet today
[03:09] <Seveas> don't worry
[03:09] <highvoltage> sorry, i tend to get excited if i hear foo and bar and haven't had my medication
[03:10] <Seveas> highvoltage, please try to control yourself and not clutter up the logs
[03:21] <chuckyp> ?
[03:59] <Lappi>  /msg nickserv set unfiltered on
[04:33] <Treenaks> ktogias: 4 hours to go then
[04:33] <Treenaks> uh
[04:33] <Treenaks> Kyral: 
[04:33] <Kyral> Tab completion gone wrong!
[04:34] <Treenaks> sshh
[04:34] <Kyral> Personally I have no adverse comments except that one of my friends thought the delay was six *months* and not six *weeks*
[04:43] <WebLOCH> i know i cant live without it :(
[04:44] <FiNeX> Hi!
[04:44] <WebLOCH> This room is not for speaking in FiNeX 
[04:48] <WebLOCH> mako?
[04:48] <mako> WebLOCH: yes
[04:48] <WebLOCH> make = matt tamset?
[04:48] <mako> mako = benjamin mako hill
[04:49] <WebLOCH> mako, apologies
[04:49] <Seveas> mako, hi there!
[04:54] <mako> Seveas: hey there
[04:55] <Seveas> mako, if you're interested: full and summarized logs of the first meeting are available via th link in the topic
[04:55] <ploum> I don't know what time it is in UTC... When will the next meeting begin ?
[04:56] <fooishbar> daniels@preemptive:~% date --utc
[04:56] <fooishbar> Tue Mar 14 15:55:53 UTC 2006
[04:56] <Kyral> so about 2 hours
[04:56] <ploum> fooishbar: thanks for the tip ;-)
[04:56] <jsgotangco> hey fooishbar nice seeing you again :)
[04:57] <ogra> yay, daniels :)))
[04:58] <WebLOCH> moogman, am sees you
[05:00] <fooishbar> (i'm not dead)
[05:03] <ogra> :)
[05:03] <ogra> good to hear
[05:04] <JanC> fooishbar: are you sure, because Xorg didn't break for a long time in Ubuntu now...  ;-)
[05:05] <ubijtsa> Shush!
[05:05] <ubijtsa> chit-chat not on this #, take it elsewhere
[05:06] <Seveas> ubijtsa, someone just returned from the death - qualifies for an exception 
[05:06] <ubijtsa> Hmmmm.. well, you the op
[05:07] <barsanuphe> hi, i understand the debate around the delay issue, but who/how will the final decision be eventually taken?
[05:08] <Seveas> barsanuphe, please read the wikipage mentioned in the topic
[05:08] <Seveas> (and the logs it links to) 
[05:09] <barsanuphe> my bad, sorry
[05:17] <Frogzoo> even if Dapper's released late, it should still be 6.04 precisely because it IS late - calling it 6.06 will cause confusion down the track I think, if 6.06 is released in June, then it's not late, it's on time?! also, further down the track, Dapper will be the only release who's name is out of the series, marking it permanently as the release that came in late - people really need to rethink whether the 6.06 name is desirable
[05:18] <Treenaks> Frogzoo: please keep comments until the meeting.
[05:18] <Frogzoo> Treenaks: too late for me dude
[05:30] <chuckyp> Mr. Poopypants?
[05:32] <Ra211> is the meeting over? am I too late?
[05:32] <ploum> If anyone is interested, I wrote my opinion about the 6 weeks delay here :
[05:32] <ploum> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-March/016437.html
[05:32] <ploum> I'm not sure I can attend the whole meeting
[05:33] <Seveas> Ra211, it's in 1.5 hours
[05:33] <ploum> Ra211: no, 1h30 too early
[05:33] <Ra211> crap, won't be here in 1.5 hours
[05:34] <Seveas> ploum, double-release is impossible
[05:34] <Seveas> we don't have the manpower
[05:34] <Seveas> please see the log from the first meeting
[05:34] <ploum> Seveas: ok, I will read it
[05:34] <ploum> will it cost so much manpower ?
[05:36] <seb128> ploum: 2 branches to maintain is twice the work
[05:36] <seb128> ploum: and if we roll a first set of CD, etc we have to make a total freeze for some days and proof test install and liveCD again and again
[05:37] <ploum> seb128: 2 branches ? Why 2 branches ? I don't see the need for 2 branches
[05:37] <seb128> ploum: ie: we create 2 CD testing efforts etc
[05:37] <seb128> ploum: so we have to stop fixing any bug for a week while we try the first CD of CD
[05:37] <ploum> I agree with the 2 CD testing efforts
[05:37] <seb128> ploum: and we can't do the l10n changes which are one of the reason of the switch
[05:37] <seb128> s/switch/shift
[05:38] <seb128> ploum: making the l10n changes now and having them ready for preCD this week is not realistic ...
[05:39] <seb128> ploum: or we would have to ship a less quality first CD to make the better quality with the second or something like that
[05:39] <linbetwin> I think the two-release approach would send the wrong signal. People will say ubuntu has a community version and an enterprise version, like Novell, Red Had and Mandriva.
[05:40] <andrewPCT> isn't it Red Hat and Fedora?
[05:40] <Seveas> can we please save it for the meeting?
[05:42] <ploum> Seveas: are we allowed to speak here in a "pre-meeting" ? (in order for me to be a bit less dumb at the real meeting ;-) )
[05:42] <seb128> Seveas: does discussions between people on a non-used chan are an issue?
[05:42] <Seveas> ploum, the logs/summary help
[05:42] <dholbach> it scatters up the log
[05:42] <Seveas> seb128, it clutters the logs ;)
[05:42] <seb128> what log?
[05:42] <Seveas> channel log...
[05:42] <dholbach> which is used for summaries
[05:42] <Treenaks> why do we log when there's no meeting?
[05:42] <seb128> oh you guys, control freak, k, let's part your chan 
[05:43] <ploum> ah, logs are already recording ?
[05:43] <Seveas> Treenaks, ubuntulog always logs
[05:43] <ploum> arf
[05:43] <Treenaks> Seveas: not an excuse :)
[05:44] <cyphase> reading the*
[05:48] <Ra211> is there a summary of the 1st meeting?
[05:48] <Seveas> see /topic
[05:50] <Ra211> I read on the forums that they said in the 1st meeting that Xgl/compiz will be in Dapper+1; can't find much about it in the logs though
[05:51] <cyphase> Ra211, a summary, and the logs
[05:51] <Ra211> ? can't find much about it in the summary or the logs?
[05:52] <ltibor65> Hi! When will be the meeting?
[05:52] <cyphase> Ra211, it was mentioned, but it probably won't be in dapper+1
[05:52] <cyphase> or at least, not by default
[05:52] <ploum> Ra211: in fact, Xgl has nothing to do with the meeting, IMHO
[05:52] <cyphase> it's in dapper, but in universe
[05:52] <cyphase> until linux gets better graphics support, it can't be default
[05:53] <ploum> ltibor65: in a bit more than one hour
[05:53] <cyphase> unfourtanetly
[05:53] <Ra211> thought that would be the reason
[05:53] <cyphase> Ra211, of course, if an OEM made sure their cards would work well, they could enable it if they wanted too
[05:53] <cyphase> but not while it's in universe
[05:53] <ltibor65> ploum, comes Shuttleworth too?
[05:54] <cyphase> yes
[05:54] <cyphase> Ra211, hopefully in dapper+1 or dapper+2, it'll be in main at least
[05:54] <ploum> ltibor65: yes but read carefully the link in the topic
[05:54] <cyphase> probably +2
[05:54] <cyphase> yea, don't say "woohoo! shuttleworth. was the shuttle worth it?"
[05:55] <olive> (Mark S. is sabdfl)
[05:55] <quidam-> here is the meeting right?
[05:55] <cyphase> yes
[05:56] <cyphase> at 18:00 UTC
[05:56] <cyphase> 10AM on the US West Coast where I am
[05:56] <cyphase> i was logged on though
[05:59] <chuckyp> 1800utc is 1:00pm for EST for you that can't do military time and timezones
[06:03] <siretart> use 'date --utc' to learn to current time in utc
[06:10] <ltibor65> Hi
[06:10] <achille> hop
[06:11] <soc> when will the official meeting start?
[06:12] <b0rsten> 18 utc
[06:12] <ogra> 18:00 UTC
[06:12] <b0rsten> so in about 50min?
[06:12] <andrewPCT> 48 minutes
[06:12] <b0rsten> k :)
[06:14] <soc> ok thx!
[06:17] <soc> can we speak freely as lon as the official part hasn't started?
[06:18] <Pygi> soc: yes
[06:18] <Pygi> ogra: same things discussed today as yesterday?
[06:19] <Seveas> soc, no
[06:19] <Seveas> preferably this channel is silent between meetings
[06:19] <Pygi> Seveas: ah, no ? :-/ ok then ;)
[06:19] <ogra> Pygi, from my TZ same as this morning ...
[06:19] <Pygi> k, thx ogra
[06:27] <Stormx2> This one is going to be a little more full up than the last meeting I feel ;-)
[06:28] <Seveas> Stormx2, we'll batten down the hatches (sp?)
[06:28] <FunnyLookinHat> Seveas, would it be alright to send comments to you now in case we are busy or away at the beginning of meeting?
[06:29] <Stormx2> Seveas: Ah ha :-) I think I'll just observe, cause I read through the points raised on the last meeting, and basicly i'd like to see a symbolic release on april 20th to say "It here but it's not finished". Still, its already been said, so I'll wait untill that gets discussed (if at all)
[06:29] <Seveas> FunnyLookinHat, no - comments will only be looked at during the meeting
[06:31] <Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in 30 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
[06:31] <Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
[06:31] <Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
[06:31] <Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a consise way so you can easily paste them
[06:31] <Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
[06:31] <Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
[06:31] <Seveas> * Try to stay silent before the meeting - some chatter is ok but don't discuss the topic at hand yet
[06:31] <jjesse> founders32
[06:32] <jjesse> doh sorry wrong window
[06:32] <ranf> hi
[06:38] <lucas> ah
[06:39] <Stormx2> Seveas: What does mode +mi do?
[06:39] <Seveas> Stormx2, moderated+invite only
[06:39] <zlatan58> moderated & invite
[06:40] <Seveas> joining users will then be forwarded to the -overflow channel
[06:40] <Stormx2> I see
[06:41] <derrick81787> if i plan on just listening to the meeting and not speaking, would it be better for me to go to the #ubuntu-overflow channel?
[06:42] <Seveas> derrick81787, it will not make much difference
[06:42] <derrick81787> alright
[06:43] <Aelor> Hi
[06:43] <simpo> hi
[06:44] <lguerra> hi
[06:45] <Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in about 15 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
[06:45] <Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
[06:45] <Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
[06:45] <Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a concise way so you can easily paste them
[06:45] <Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
[06:45] <Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
[06:45] <Seveas> * Try to stay silent before the meeting - some chatter is ok but please don't discuss the topic at hand yet
[06:49] <sivang> hrm, meeting 10 minutes away. better take this as a break.
[06:50] <Stormx2> sivang: Agreed
[06:51] <Stormx2> Banana and some Nik Naks
[06:51] <Stormx2> :D
[06:52] <ogra> Seveas, already ? 
[06:52] <ogra> Seveas, i thought you were at the dentist
[06:52] <Seveas> ogra, no, i've been stupid, appointment was earlier today and i messed up in my agenda
[06:52] <fabbione> ok
[06:53] <ogra> ok ? 
[06:53] <highvoltage> (it's not often that dentists hold such power)
[06:53] <Stormx2> highvoltage: haha
[06:53] <Seveas> The second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting will start in about 7 minutes. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
[06:53] <Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
[06:53] <Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
[06:53] <Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a concise way so you can easily paste them
[06:53] <Seveas> * Stay on-topic and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
[06:53] <Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
[06:54] <hey_DAX> is the second meeting over?
[06:54] <highvoltage> hey_DAX: /topic
[06:54] <ogra> hey_DAX, starts in 5 min
[06:54] <cyphase> hey_DAX, it's about to start
[06:55] <Amaranth> in case i'm not here, i vote for doing it :P
[06:55] <Seveas> Amaranth, we don't vote
[06:55] <FunnyLookinHat> lol
[06:55] <Amaranth> Seveas: shh
[06:56] <Amaranth> Seveas: it's already happening, why are we here?
[06:56] <fabbione> NOTICE: OFFTOPIC TALK -> BAN
[06:56] <fabbione> i am not as nice as Seveas 
[06:56] <Amaranth> no matter what is talked about here it's going to be pushed back 6 weeks
[06:56] <Stormx2> Amaranth: Not really... its up to the council and technical board
[06:56] <Seveas> Amaranth, the CC and TB will decide based upon todays discussions
[06:57] <jono> CC and TB?
[06:57] <Aelor> And 6 weeks can't be bad for ubuntu in my opinion
[06:57] <sabdfl> jono: community council and tech board
[06:57] <jono> sabdfl, thanks :)
[06:57] <juliux> hi
[06:57] <ogra> jono, for your glossary :)
[06:57] <jono> ogra, always helps :)
[06:57] <ogra> your book should definately have one
[06:58] <ogra> wow, looks like we're more this time 
[06:58] <pitti> hey
[06:58] <Kyral> hey all
[06:58] <Stormx2> Yeah... well it was mainly the people from asia/oceania who turns up to the last oen
[06:59] <Stormx2> one*
[06:59] <Amaranth> ogra: the last meeting was roughly 2-4am in the US
[06:59] <meborc> europe here...
[06:59] <FlannelKing> 1-4
[06:59] <mordof> is the meeting today already over?
[06:59] <sabdfl> mordof: about to begin
[06:59] <mordof> ooo just in time :)
[06:59] <Aelor> mordof, look the topic 
[06:59] <cyphase> Anaranth, ogra, 1AM
[06:59] <Seveas> Welcome to the second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
[06:59] <Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
[06:59] <Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
[06:59] <Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a consise way so you can easily paste them
[06:59] <Seveas> * STAY ON-TOPIC! and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
[06:59] <Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
[06:59] <Seveas> sabdfl has the stage for the introduction - all be quiet please
[06:59] <FlannelKing> sabdfl: glad to finally have a definiton of why this release is special.
[07:00] <mordof> Aelor, yeah i messed up on the time
[07:00] <Seveas> FlannelKing, mordof - ssh
[07:00] <sabdfl> TIME
[07:00] <sabdfl> new balls
[07:00] <mordof> ssh?
[07:00] <sabdfl> seveas to serve
[07:00] <Stormx2> secure shell
[07:00] <Kyral> hehe
[07:00] <Kamion> please be quiet and cut the off-topic chatter
[07:00] <sabdfl> -ENOTWIMBLEDON
[07:00] <Seveas> BE WARNED
[07:01] <sabdfl> ok, let's give it a minute for the folks to arrive
[07:01] <sabdfl> especially those who's alarm clocks just went off
[07:01] <ogra> :)
[07:01] <cyphase> :)
[07:01] <Seveas> sabdfl, it's quite unusual for an Ubuntu meeting to start on time
[07:01] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
[07:02] <sabdfl> for those who weren't in this mornings town hall
[07:02] <raphink> Seveas: it's quite unusual for sabdfl to be there at the beginning of a meeting, too :)
[07:02] <sabdfl> we are tight on time, i'm afraid
[07:02] <sabdfl> mdz and i need to leave for a Lp/distro leaders meeting in 1 hour
[07:02] <sabdfl> so let's get going!
[07:02] <raphink> and then there's TB in 2 hours
[07:02] <Seveas> The ist of people who have comments is already growing
[07:02] <sabdfl> first, thank you to everyone who is here
[07:03] <mdz> Seveas: please filter questions/comments which are already addressed by your wiki summary
[07:03] <sabdfl> second, those of you who have comments, please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
[07:03] <mdz> in the interest of time
[07:03] <sabdfl> msg seveas
[07:03] <sabdfl> pre-type your comments
[07:03] <sabdfl> if someone says what you wanted to say, please just say so when your turn comes
[07:03] <Seveas> To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
[07:03] <sabdfl> we want to find as many new arguments for or against as possible
[07:04] <sabdfl> once we've had the first round of comments, i'll paste up a brief summary
[07:04] <sabdfl> then we will answer any specific questions that were asked
[07:04] <sabdfl> and then discuss new, high level issues
[07:04] <sabdfl> after that, i'll ask TB and CC to weigh in
[07:04] <sabdfl> ok?
[07:05] <sabdfl> seveas, how long is that list?
[07:05] <Seveas> around 10 so far
[07:05] <sabdfl> ok, let's go
[07:05] <Kamion> we're missing Keybuk from the TB
[07:05] <Seveas> ploum, go
[07:05] <ploum> Hello
[07:05] <ogra> Kamion, can you call him?
[07:05] <ploum> I think that a lot of communities and LUG have already scheduled an Install Party for Dapper. (My LUG, for example).
[07:05] <ploum> I tought we will then only install Breezy but nobody in my LUG does agree with me !  Everyone want to, to a degree or another, allow people to install a "beta" or to dist-upgrade. (The party was originaly announced as an install/upgrade party)
[07:05] <ploum> People think that it can't be that wrong but installing a non-stable release for non-geek people will, IMHO, gives a very bad opinions about Ubuntu (I just have an example in current dapper). I will do my best to convince people to not upgrade but I'm sure it will happens a lot and for a lot of beginners around the world. Even close friends with a strong Ubuntu knowledge are trying to convince me that it's better to install pre-dappe
[07:05] <ploum> r than breezy because they are convinced that the 6 weeks delay is only "cosmetic things".
[07:06] <Seveas> please say "done" when you finished your comment!
[07:06] <ploum> I think that this problem is a serious issue and that the "symbolic beta release" suggested in the first meeting must be more than a symbolic beta release so we can install it and have a wider hardware testing field.
[07:06] <ploum> If it's not possible, would it be possible to have an "official recommandation" or something that says "do not try this at home kids".
[07:06] <ploum> done
[07:06] <Seveas> thanks ploum
[07:06] <Seveas> hardawayd, 
[07:06] <Seveas> you're up
[07:06] <hardawayd> First i would highly recommend the delay--dapper will be judged by my contacts--companies etc. against Novell and Redhat and it needs to be the best it can.  Also, for a year now i have been waiting for an easy interface to use with xsupplicant so wireless connections can be made at my university.  students now use windows and are willing to change but there has to be an easy interface to put in the peap-eap , mschapv2
[07:06] <hardawayd>  parameters.  If the delay would mean that that could be accomplished it would be great.
[07:06] <hardawayd> done
[07:06] <LeonWP> hi
[07:06] <frodon> hi
[07:07] <Seveas> thanks hardawayd 
[07:07] <Seveas> Kamion, 
[07:07] <mdz> hardawayd: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
[07:07] <Kamion> I'm concerned about keeping staff in crunch mode for an extra six weeks; I think productivity is going to take a hit through sheer tiredness.
[07:07] <Kamion> Pushing the release to after debconf means that either we won't be able to get any significant benefit from attending debconf, or productivity for that chunk of time will be significantly reduced.
[07:07] <Kamion> Once we take the above into account, I question whether we'd get all that much more done in six weeks than we would in two.
[07:08] <Seveas> Anyone who wants to comment: To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
[07:08] <mdz> debconf will be a nice opportunity to take a break
[07:08] <sabdfl> mdz: for those of us going. i think kamion has a point, need to figure it out carefully
[07:08] <Seveas> Kamion, was that all?
[07:08] <ogra> Kamion, done ? 
[07:08] <mdz> I don't think that 2 weeks would be enough to mete our goals
[07:08] <Kamion> sorry, done
[07:08] <mdz> s/mete/meet/
[07:08] <Seveas> ok, thanks Kamion - bimberi is next
[07:09] <bimberi> The aspects that are the communicated reasons for the delay become very important and will attract focus.  So, for example, localisation will become something that people will focus on because the delay was to make it better.  Hence it has to be good.
[07:09] <bimberi> done
[07:09] <Seveas> thank you - cyphase is up
[07:09] <cyphase> While initially I didn't want the delay (I wanted Dapper now! :P), I think that the delay is a good idea, although 6 weeks seems like a lot. A month might be better.
[07:09] <cyphase> Along with the proposed changes, we should use the time to make sure there are absolutely no hardware regressions. Seems several cards that used to work with ndiswrapper are having many problems now.
[07:09] <cyphase> Lastly, as mentioned in the first meeting, there should be something in the releases name that indicates it's special. Maybe it could be something like "Ubuntu 6.04: A Polished Edition" :)
[07:09] <cyphase> Done
[07:10] <Seveas> ok, FunnyLookinHat 
[07:10] <FunnyLookinHat> I think that errors/bugs found much later than releases, such as the root password flaw discovered in breezy a few days ago, are a good reason to delay the release by 6 weeks.  This release is the first "Corporate" release and should have extra care taken to make sure all is set to make a good impression and product.
[07:10] <FunnyLookinHat> All of that to take into effect, into addition the fact that Supplicant needs to be supported and stable.  It's a very important feature for College users who needs wireless with WPA support as already stated.
[07:10] <FunnyLookinHat> done.
[07:10] <Seveas> thanks FunnyLookinHat - next up is highvoltage 
[07:10] <Kamion> please skip comments that have already been raised by others
[07:11] <Seveas> Kamion, I'm filtering as much as I can - it's hectic here 
[07:11] <mdz> for the record, the delay is entirely unrelated to the recently-publicized security vulnerability; the proposal was made before it was known in fact
[07:11] <Seveas> highvoltage, ?
[07:11] <highvoltage> sure.
[07:11] <highvoltage> hi Seveas. I have one argument that counts for both against and for the postponement.
[07:11] <highvoltage> I work on the tuXlabs project, where we have 200 computer labs set up in schools in south africa, we have put in a huge amount of planning to get the dapper edubuntu release rolled out in May (month after dapper release).
[07:11] <highvoltage> The postponement throws us out to a large extent. On the other hand, we really *need* a very stable release, so we would rather have a later, better release and be inconvenienced, if it means that we can provide a better system to the benefactors.
[07:11] <highvoltage> i think there may be other, similar projects that have planned around the date too, but quality is always a top priority.
[07:12] <highvoltage> done;
[07:12] <Seveas> thanks highvoltage - Tonio_ you're up
[07:12] <ogra> (edubuntu could get hard frozen on time)
[07:12] <Tonio_> the actual schedule for kde 3.5.2 is a few days/weeks before dapper relase, and reporting it would help for a better kde integration, cause 3.5.1 still has lots of bugs
[07:12] <Tonio_> some majors like kdeprint doesn't work etc...
[07:13] <Tonio_> that's why I would vote for the new release date, cause kubuntu isn't as mature as ubuntu in it's actual state
[07:13] <Tonio_> done
[07:13] <Seveas> thank you Tonio_ 
[07:13] <Seveas> janimo, 
[07:13] <janimo> delay good, more time for xfce polish for xubuntu
[07:13] <janimo> done
[07:13] <Seveas> ok, last on my list is raphink 
[07:14] <raphink> We see on the users mailing lists that more and more users are wanting to switch to Dapper. People are eager to test it, but some don't want to take the risk to use a distro not frozen yet. I'm thinking many people might be deceived to have to wait 6 more weeks, which is about 1/5 of the total dev time. 
[07:14] <raphink> I'd rather delay by a 1 or 2 weeks (and keep 6.04 which is an almost known name) if that was possible.
[07:14] <Seveas> if I forgot anyone - yell in a /msg
[07:15] <Seveas> raphink, was that all?
[07:15] <mdz> raphink: a delay of 1 or 2 weeks is not enough time to have these new features implemented and tested
[07:15] <raphink> Seveas: yes that was it, sorry
[07:15] <sabdfl> ok, folks who have not yet spoken, msg seveas
[07:15] <sivang> may I?
[07:15] <mdz> we're still in the process of specifying the functionality
[07:15] <Seveas> sivang, yes
[07:15] <sivang> 1) I would like to be able to include UPBackup (Home User Backup) in ubuntu dapper and this extension might make this possible. a package will be shortly uploaded soon to universe to show where this is going.
[07:15] <Seveas> (there are new /msg'es flowing in)
[07:15] <sivang> 2) From the ISV certification, this extension will allow to to push the certification a bit further and do more testing / integration. as I helped with DB2 and intend to help on for dapper, I therefor support it.
[07:15] <toma> Speaking on behalf a company that is working towards a POS-retail distribution with Ubuntu, we are more than comfortable with a few week delay. What is the worst case scenario, time wise?
[07:16] <mdz> sivang: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
[07:16] <sabdfl> toma: 1st week of June
[07:16] <toma> Thank you
[07:16] <Seveas> sivang, was that all>?
[07:16] <sivang> mdz: I understand, still for sake of polish and most important - bug fixing, I support it as well.
[07:16] <hardawayd> i thought the wireless goals were in the dapper goals originally--am i wrong?
[07:16] <Seveas> please refrain from discussing at this point
[07:16] <Seveas> there are still comments comming
[07:16] <NetGeek> would programs get updated during that 6 week delay?
[07:17] <Seveas> ompaul, go
[07:17] <sabdfl> hardawayd: we evaluated NetworkManager for Dapper, which would likely give us WPA, but it's not ready
[07:17] <ompaul> Thanks Seveas Simple point, if we get all these extra l10n items into Dapper then when it becomes 6.X or 6-X the new possible long support base is going to be huge, should on the other hand this not happen then when is then l10n to get a long life version why are we restricting the Human Linux to some Humans?
[07:17] <mdz> hardawayd: no, WPA was never a stated goal for Dapper, and as far as I know there were no developers working on it during the cycle
[07:17] <ompaul> done
[07:17] <cyphase> sabdfl, isn't it in main?
[07:17] <Seveas> thanks ompaul 
[07:17] <Seveas> Xanadu, you're up
[07:18] <Seveas> Xanadu, now is last on the list of *new* comments
[07:18] <Xanadu> ta some comments to the Tectonic site from Ubuntu users (thought they should be heard)
[07:18] <Xanadu> Posted by Ubuntu User
[07:18] <Xanadu> They should stay on course with the release on April 20th!
[07:18] <Xanadu> Change the dates and the support (because hey, they are going to really need another 6 months to get it up... and don't do CDs for this release (only take pre-orders for Full release when it comes out.ll in 45 days or 90 days?
[07:18] <Xanadu> Call the April release " Fetal DAPPER " and when they got it ready - call it Baby Dapper , then do a bug fixed version called Dapper Flys!
[07:18] <Xanadu> And print the CDs based on DapperFlys version version! That would be the supportable 5yr version and the final release target!
[07:18] <Xanadu> However, all networking and basic appa (like Edubuntu default install of 2 NICs vs just 1 NIC) should be in place for April 20 "Fetal" release. All the extras Mark is taking about could come in Baby Dapper, and then declare a party for DapperFly (at last)and release a CD version based on that (hey, it could be fall before this is ready to FLY, given the historic way that some programming issues are resolved... I have seen more release d
[07:18] <Xanadu> ates pushed back and push back and that is as frustrating as anything...)!
[07:18] <Xanadu> Fetal Dapper
[07:18] <Xanadu> Baby Dapper
[07:18] <Xanadu> Sounds like a sane and not unusual approach to a rather common issue with operating systems. Hopefully the community has some sense of marketing and will appreciate his concern for delaying the Dapper release, after all this is a major release and one shouldn't start walking before a having had a good crawl around the office first.
[07:18] <Xanadu> Actually, when was the last time an Os got released in time ... oh yeah, about six months ago ;-P
[07:18] <Xanadu> I just keep my hopes up the debian project will benefit in full from this ubuntu thingy ...
[07:18] <Xanadu> Posted by Daniel Mejia
[07:18] <Xanadu> English.
[07:18] <Xanadu> I think it is a good idea because not only they can polish some applications like the gdebi they can also work on somethin very innovative like an interface to make all the opion of an user avalible in only one window, like a user configuration to set everything from theme to preffered mp3 player :D
[07:19] <Xanadu> RE: Shuttleworth wants six week delay for Dapper
[07:19] <sabdfl> Seveas: easy tiger
[07:19] <Seveas> Xanadu, we asked for brief comments - now is not the time for large messages
[07:19] <sabdfl> he was just trying to help
[07:19] <Seveas> (sabdfl: to stop the paste flood)
[07:19] <sabdfl> Xanadu: the process did ask you to be careful not to flood
[07:19] <Xanadu> soz trying to give opinion of the masses
[07:19] <Xanadu> okay lots more on the site then
[07:19] <sabdfl> we have 318 people here, masses enough :-)
[07:20] <sabdfl> Xanadu: a url would suffice
[07:20] <sabdfl> ok
[07:20] <sabdfl> anybody that msg's seveas but is feeling censored?
[07:20] <sabdfl> nobody :-)
[07:20] <Xanadu> done
[07:20] <Seveas> siretart probably
[07:20] <Seveas> he just /msg'ed
[07:20] <sabdfl> siretart: go
[07:20] <siretart> sabdfl: I noticed that there is a high priority spec, which has been delayed for dapper
[07:21] <Seveas> siretart will be the absolute last one - there was time enough already to /msg
[07:21] <siretart> network authentication
[07:21] <siretart> if I remember correctly it was delayed because of lack of time
[07:21] <siretart> could that be reconsidered for dapper, given that we get additional 6 weeks?
[07:21] <ogra> siretart, <mdz> : the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
[07:22] <s_spiff> yello ppl
[07:22] <Seveas> ok, so that was it
[07:22] <mdz> please, no more proposals for new features
[07:22] <Seveas> sabdfl, the stage is yours again
[07:22] <sabdfl> siretart: i'd love that, but i don't think it will pass the TB
[07:22] <Stormx2> what now? ;-)
[07:22] <siretart> ogra: I read that. but this is a very special concern, I think
[07:22] <sabdfl> i'm on thin enough ice already
[07:22] <mdz> the reason we're delaying is because we already have too much to do
[07:22] <NetGeek> but the feature freeze may need to be reviewed, or Dapper will leave the gate lagging behind in software
[07:22] <sabdfl> and because we want to provide extra polish on the good work that has been done over 4 releases
[07:23] <sabdfl> NetGeek: if we put out dapper on april 20, then on June 1st the software will be just as old
[07:23] <sabdfl> but not just as polished
[07:23] <hardawayd> all the polish in the world is not going to overcome the lack of wireless access
[07:23] <siretart> well, basically this is a Mithrandir spec. perhaps he can comment on that?
[07:23] <sabdfl> we would only gain in currency for a very short time if we released early
[07:23] <sabdfl> we already have a dapper release that is well behind our normal gnome+1day release
[07:24] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: ?
[07:24] <sagarab> considering 18:23:13 by mdz -- and assuming 6 week delay... do u reckon 6 weeks is long enough to complete  what u've already got on your plate?
[07:24] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: pong?
[07:24] <mdz> hardawayd: we've heard you; please, this is not a forum for feature requests but to discuss the delay
[07:24] <Kamion> I'm concerned that dapper+1 will be a pretty shoddy release given that we're going to have to shorten it a lot, BTW
[07:24] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: siretart is asking re network auth
[07:24] <ogra> Kamion++
[07:24] <mdz> sagarab: yes, the 6 week figure was my recommendation
[07:24] <Seveas> Kamion, just don't add too much new features to Edgy
[07:25] <Kamion> Seveas: dapper+1 is all ABOUT new features
[07:25] <Xanadu> sabdfl: who's going to decide at end of the day?
[07:25] <NetGeek> sabdfl: I just don't want to see 5000 backport request the first day Dapper is out, That may be unavoidable:)
[07:25] <hardawayd> i agree to delay it as long as they want--it will not have any practical effect that i can see
[07:25] <ploum> Kamion++
[07:25] <sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
[07:25] <ogra> Seveas, its what all devs are waiting for, we had to keep our feet quite in dapper
[07:25] <sladen> Xanadu: Community Council
[07:25] <mdz> Kamion: we expect to delay dapper+1 somewhat to compensate for that (not the full 6 weeks, but some)
[07:25] <sabdfl> ok
[07:25] <sabdfl> let me paste up a brief summary
[07:26] <subsonic_shadow> hello
[07:26] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I've estimated it at 30 days; it could be done, but I'm only one person and I'm busy trying to fix espresso keyboard handling as well as having been dragged into some korean keyboard handling lately, so I would need to drop a bit of that if we wanted it in.
[07:26] <sivang> Kamion: Edgy?
[07:26] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: and it would be really nice to have it in too, but there wasn't time before FF.
[07:27] <ailean> in my opinion the 6 week delay is way too long. many new users to linux have been waiting for the day it's released and the delay of a month and a half stinks too much of certain other companies. I do think a shorter delay would be possible.
[07:27] <tmahmood> Can ubuntu installer use graphical mode?
[07:27] <Kamion> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu
[07:27] <Seveas> tmahmood, this is not a support channel
[07:27] <aboe> just a question maybe, if dapper is postponed 6 weeks, but dapper+1 needs the development time, isn't it possible to do both at the same time...
[07:27] <sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/501
[07:27] <sabdfl> sorry about hte PHP syntax
[07:28] <Seveas> sabdfl, paste.ubuntu-nl.org ;)
[07:28] <ogra> sabdfl, LP needs a pastebot ;)
[07:28] <xhaker> dapper+1 need more developers/contributers, with more people it can be done in time even with this delay, 6 weeks could be asked again if there is something like this wpa blahblah that would rather be included than delayed for next release (i really think wpa is not reason for delay, and i know it's not)
[07:28] <Aelor> sabdfl, no pb i think :)
[07:28] <tmahmood> oh no.. I was asking will dapper have a graphical Installer?
[07:28] <mdz> ailean: while your confidence in the development team is flattering, I can't agree
[07:28] <dholbach> aboe: that question was answered this morning already, no, it requires to much manpower
[07:28] <Aelor> tmahmood, not the time to ask new things
[07:28] <Kyral> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu+1
[07:28] <sabdfl> tmahmood: 
[07:28] <aboe> ok
[07:28] <aboe> thanks dholbach 
[07:28] <sabdfl> ok
[07:28] <sabdfl> quick answers...
[07:29] <sabdfl> hardawayd: WPA is a top user request, but we have no straightforward way to implement
[07:29] <sabdfl> i will review any community contributions
[07:29] <sabdfl> (and ask the TB to do so)
[07:29] <sabdfl> so if you can get a posse organised and get something to review, we can consider it
[07:29] <sagarab> i agree to the principle of more polish is a good thing... but do we also agree what exactly and how much we want to polish... do we have any specific targets or its more like test-fix-test-fix cycle??
[07:29] <Danster> since we're speaking about polishing.. what about i18n/l10n updates? are they going to be accepted during this delay? for example, russian kubuntu is in a pretty crappy state, being ~70% english
[07:29] <sabdfl> in the absence of an organised community effort, it will not happen in Dapper, but is feasible in Dapper+1
[07:30] <mdz> sagarab: the targets were laid out in the email proposing the delay
[07:30] <sabdfl> Danster: yes, l10n is open throughout
[07:30] <cmk1337> sabdfl, check this thread http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=139334&highlight=NetworkManager, nm packages that support wpa and work for me are in there
[07:30] <Seveas> Danster, that is ongoing work and yes, l10n polish is high priority
[07:30] <Polmac> just out of interest, which parts of dapper would be in more need of the six-week delay?
[07:30] <Xanadu> sabdfl: What do your existing enterprise customers say they want ito delay vs quality?
[07:30] <sabdfl> cmk1337: please mail me, mark@ubuntu.com
[07:30] <sagarab> thanks mdz was aware of that. was just wondering if there was more to it
[07:30] <sabdfl> Xanadu: quality
[07:30] <dholbach> sagarab: apart from that http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[07:31] <sagarab> thanks dholbach
[07:31] <sabdfl> Kamion: i agree on the risk of exhausting our core team and motu
[07:31] <_ion> Also concerning the new network-manager: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=144081
[07:31] <Seveas> sabdfl, my pm tabs are filled with request to have a sort-of baby-dapper on april 20
[07:31] <sabdfl> i hope, though, that the extra time will actually make things a bit more sane
[07:31] <ailean> will this delay lead to a longer development cycle in the future or is that going to remain the same?
[07:31] <dholbach> _ion: we decided on a process for that already
[07:31] <juliux> Seveas, +1
[07:31] <Kyral> Seveas++
[07:31] <sivang> can we have someone/TB/someones to review specs/ goal that missed FF, that might get completed over the delay period? or is this a no go from maturity POV?
[07:31] <cyphase> Seveas, +1
[07:31] <Burgwork> Seveas, if we push the beta on that day
[07:31] <sabdfl> i think the team would find it requires superhuman effort to test everything to long-term-support levels by april 20
[07:31] <cmk1337> sabdfl, will do, thanks
[07:31] <Stormx2> sabdfl: *you're* mark?
[07:31] <natroll> Seveas, ++1
[07:31] <subsonic_shadow> people who want a baby dapper can download flight 5, no?
[07:31] <mdz> sivang: already answered that twice
[07:31] <Xanadu> sabdfl: "quality" - doesn't that answer the question then?
[07:32] <sabdfl> so, while there's new work, the six week delay is time to do that gracefully, without hurting any of us
[07:32] <siretart> sabdfl: re wpa: I have prepared with crimsun and kel modderman a new wpasupplicant package which integrates nicely in /etc/network/interfaces. I think it shouldn't be hard to integrate that to gnome-system-tools
[07:32] <sivang> mdz: okay, sorry.
[07:32] <jdub> having a super-beta on april 20 would be cool; something we can strongly recommend the community upgrade to
[07:32] <sabdfl> Xanadu: prefer longer term quality than the april 20 date
[07:32] <ogra> subsonic_shadow, flight 7 :)
[07:32] <trappist> if i18n and l10n issues are a major reason for considering the delay, can't updates to those be pushed post-release as bugfixes?
[07:32] <sabdfl> jdub: +1
[07:32] <dholbach> can we agree on answering *one* questions at a time? :)
[07:32] <Kyral> lol
[07:32] <ruben>  jdub: +1
[07:32] <jjesse> couldn't you call in it a community technology preview :)
[07:32] <juliux> jdub, +1
[07:32] <Seveas> it's going almost pear-shaped
[07:32] <Kamion> trappist: some can, some can't; those that need to go in shipped CD images can't, for example
[07:32] <ploum> jdub++  
[07:32] <sabdfl> siretart: get cracking, let's focus on other issues here
[07:32] <jdub> besides, i want my birthday present.
[07:32] <ltibor65> sabdfl, how many people work on the developing of Dapper?
[07:32] <Seveas> people, random +1 and offtopicness won't help
[07:33] <ogra> jdub++
[07:33] <raphink> Seveas: ++
[07:33] <raphink> ;)
[07:33] <olive> jdub: +1
[07:33] <Rehto> *a curious pclinuxos user comes to check this out*
[07:33] <sabdfl> bimberi: you're absolutely right that we will be judged against the rationale for the delay
[07:33] <Stormx2> Seveas: ++
[07:33] <sabdfl> we have the l10n team here working hard on Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai
[07:33] <theoddone> more on-topic ! what about incremental but unpredictable releases of ubuntu desktop and fixed predictable releases of ubuntu server and enterprise desktop ?
[07:33] <sabdfl> we will shortly call for contributions for other tricky but important languages
[07:33] <Seveas> theoddone, please....
[07:33] <jdub> bimberi: there is actually a really good message in the rationale for the delay, something that speaks well of ubuntu, despite the slip
[07:33] <ploum> the important thing about a "super-beta" is that we can recommend it to anybody and will not "maybe destroy your computer"
[07:33] <Seveas> don't make me +mi the chat
[07:34] <sabdfl> we have made good progress in understanding what's needed to help make those languages work well
[07:34] <bimberi> jdub: agreed!
[07:34] <sabdfl> with good community support, testing, and contributions we will be able to get a LOT done with the new release date
[07:34] <sabdfl> also, Rosetta now has most of dapper uploaded
[07:34] <Seveas> sabdfl, yay!
[07:34] <natroll> ok, what about just releasing a dist-upgrade package on the 20th, then release the cds on the release date 6 weeks off
[07:34] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+translations iirc
[07:35] <sivang> sabdfl: you have RTL langa on your mind as well ? :)
[07:35] <sivang> s/langa/languages/
[07:35] <dholbach> natroll: dist-upgrade worked around 3-4 days after breezy release already :)
[07:35] <tmahmood> need more better support for Bengali language. when I open a Bengali website its a complete mass
[07:35] <cyphase> Seveas, "yay!" isn't much better then "+1" ;)
[07:35] <sabdfl> sivang: yes, please chat with daf or mvo to make sure hebrew, arabic and others work well
[07:35] <xhaker> Seveas: the question about developer number was pretty in context... with more developers dapper+1 might be release without much delay
[07:35] <subsonic_shadow> imo, take the 6 weeks, I've seen to many companies rush stuff (specially game developpers) and they delivered a craptastic game
[07:35] <natroll> dholbach, well, to 'publicize it' i mean then :)
[07:35] <dholbach> tmahmood: this is not the time to complains about bugs.
[07:35] <sivang> sabdfl: sure thing, I will see what else we can add there from IM aspect.
[07:35] <sabdfl> highvoltage: good point, i will call for more discussion on large planned deployments later
[07:36] <natroll> dholbach, as a consolation of sorts
[07:36] <sabdfl> Tonio_: yes, we plan to integrate KDE 3.5.2 but that does depend on KDE getting it done on time
[07:36] <sabdfl> ironically
[07:36] <tmahmood> well this delay is for fixing some bugs right?
[07:36] <Xanadu> why not release preflight on 20th and make it clear to the "community" that it's what would have been released on that date, and to expect big update if they can't wait 6 weeks. 
[07:36] <Tonio_> sabdfl: sure ;) thanks for the response !
[07:36] <sabdfl> janimo: im very keen to see XFCE well polished, so the slip will help us consider XFCE for main
[07:36] <dholbach> tmahmood: yes, but we're not here to list our favourite bugs
[07:36] <Kyral> dholbach has scheduled a HUG day for this Friday....
[07:36] <mdz> tmahmood: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-March/000094.html
[07:36] <raphink> sabdfl: well KDE 3.5.2 is planned for a this week or so, so it should be on time for dapper ;)
[07:36] <Seveas> please people
[07:36] <Seveas> sabdfl is answering the comments
[07:36] <sabdfl> Kamion: will also call for discussion on Dapper+1
[07:36] <Seveas> all the offtopicness makes it hard to follow
[07:37] <sabdfl> (and BTW need animal names for E..)
[07:37] <Seveas> do NOT list/repeat your favourite issues
[07:37] <sabdfl> ok
[07:37] <sabdfl> that's quick answers to the things folks raised earlier
[07:37] <natroll> Early Echidna
[07:37] <sabdfl> there are some "discussion" topics that i'd like to call for comments on
[07:37] <sabdfl> Early... :-)
[07:37] <natroll> hehe :D
[07:37] <Kyral> heheh
[07:37] <sabdfl> first, highvoltage's "large scale planned deployments"
[07:38] <sabdfl> is anyone here planning a large deployment of Dapper before June?
[07:38] <natroll> better than Ergonomic Elephant, i suppose :D
[07:38] <cyphase> Electric Eel
[07:38] <Seveas> natroll, cyphase stop!
[07:38] <sabdfl> that cannot be delayed
[07:38] <Xanadu> SARS might
[07:38] <ailean> what is large scale??
[07:38] <sabdfl> folks, i did not call for animal names HERE :-)
[07:38] <Seveas> sabdfl, I have several intro-courses planned in May
[07:38] <ogra> sabdfl, as i said earlier, edubuntu specifics would be in place on 20th and be ready to freeze, but that doesnt saver from changes in the ubuntu core 
[07:38] <sabdfl> large-scale would be hundreds+
[07:38] <Seveas> sabdfl, the were moved from april to may for dapper cd's
[07:39] <ailean> then no
[07:39] <Seveas> expecting 100+ users
[07:39] <Xanadu> Sars=South African Revenue Service, out for tender at the moment
[07:39] <Seveas> I'm going to look like a fool 
[07:39] <Kamion> as I said to ogra in /msg earlier, I do not think it is at all practical to consider derivative releases separately
[07:39] <sabdfl> Seveas: we could possible send preview CD's if that helps
[07:39] <Seveas> sabdfl, oh yeah
[07:39] <Seveas> sabdfl, having to burn 100cd's is just too much
[07:39] <derrick81787> other than polishing certain languages, is there anything else that couldn't be changed fairly easily in an update? if not, it could be recomended that people using the fully supported languages upgrade on the 20th, and everyone else wait the 6 weeks if they wish to have a more polished version
[07:39] <aboe> would love to see preview cd's
[07:39] <sabdfl> Seveas: ok, i will make a plan to help you out there
[07:39] <Kamion> sabdfl: that's going to take quite a lot of resources to produce CDs of quality we think is worth spending money on pressing lots of
[07:40] <sabdfl> Kamion: would find a local run of Flight or beta's for Seveas
[07:40] <Seveas> sabdfl, sbartleylinux wants to say something too in this regard
[07:40] <linbetwin> more than 1000 users voted on ubuntuforums in favour of the delay (91%)
[07:40] <Seveas> sbartleylinux, please go ahead
[07:40] <Seveas> linbetwin, irrelevant
[07:40] <Seveas> the CC decides - not the forum users
[07:40] <Danster> sabdfl - we're already shipping our PCs with dapper.. that's about 20-30 daily
[07:40] <sbartleylinux> We are a software development organization.  We are designing our next release around Ubuntu.  The current plan is to go to Alpha with our project in June on Dapper.  A delay of 6 weeks will most likely force us to rework most of our project and remain on Breezy until Dapper +1 or later.  This is not our wish at all.
[07:40] <shinmen> sabdfl: I work for an ISP that has a datacenter, and I one of our clients made the comment that they planned to build a couple of racks with dapper to test them as servers. AFAIK, they did planned it before June. Aprox 30+ machines.
[07:40] <sbartleylinux>  We selected Ubuntu in part due to the regular scheduled release cycle we could map to.
[07:40] <mdz> derrick81787: implementing the localization changes means less time spent on QA, so we need more time to fix existing bugs as well
[07:41] <sabdfl> ploum: i hear you on the installfest. how would you feel about saying "this is beta quality, automatically upgradeable, known to work in this language, no major changes expected"
[07:41] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: ok, this is important
[07:41] <sbartleylinux> very much so for us.
[07:41] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: does your product ship in many languages?
[07:41] <ploum> sabdfl: it could be enough but we need some minimal guaranties
[07:41] <sbartleylinux> no, just english.
[07:42] <yaaar> is there a middle ground here? perhaps the delay could proceed, but shorter?
[07:42] <sabdfl> ploum: i expect that dapper will be very stable (as stable as breezy) by april 20
[07:42] <shinmen> (In Costa Rica, in case that's important)
[07:42] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: i expect dapper to be in very good shape in english by the dates you were expecting it
[07:42] <ailean> so will there be another flight by that point even if the final release isn't ready?
[07:42] <libervisco> it seems to me the best solution would be to release a stable preview in time and then a final six weeks later
[07:42] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: do you touch kernel, libc, X, or gnome?
[07:42] <olive> ok, so I don't have to cancell the install party of paris 
[07:43] <linbetwin> seveas: but why release "baby dapper" if the community fully understands the need for the delay? it will only confuse people
[07:43] <ploum> sabdfl: then it should be enough. Thank you for your answer.  Will it be possible to have an ISO image of a "guaranteed" pre-dapper on that date ?
[07:43] <sbartleylinux> sabdfl, no. 
[07:43] <natroll> sabdfl, what is the issue with updating the installer after the release to include the other languages?
[07:43] <mdz> ploum: what sort of guarantee are you looking for?
[07:43] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: what packages do you modify in the underlying OS of your product?
[07:43] <schlurchz> sabdfl: do you expect large update volumes for such an install? I consider installing on a modem-connected machine. 
[07:43] <yaaar> ploum: your use of 'guarantee' in context of OSS worries me...
[07:44] <ploum> mdz: you can install this image as you would have with breezy
[07:44] <ploum> nothing more than that
[07:44] <sabdfl> schlurchz: possibly, because even a small oo.o change is a big download
[07:44] <mdz> natroll: the installer will be included on a rather large number of CDs which can't be updated after the release
[07:44] <Xanadu> sabdfl: will the Chinese and other extra language support be installed as a base package? 
[07:44] <schlurchz> sabdfl: thx
[07:44] <mdz> ploum: breezy is stable and will receive only critical updates; we can't say the same of dapper on 20 april
[07:45] <Deb> hello
[07:45] <pitti> Xanadu: we will work towards out of the box support, but probably not on the CD
[07:45] <sabdfl> Xanadu: no, but they need to be installed for chinese users
[07:45] <giftnudel> what reason is there not to update cd's after an inital release?
[07:45] <sbartleylinux> sabdfl, We add some things to xorg for configs only.  Not really anything else that I can think of and nothing that I would say is modified.
[07:45] <ploum> mdz: It's not what I'm trying to say. 
[07:45] <sabdfl> so they need to be high quality on the disk
[07:45] <Seveas> giftnudel, they're kind-a unchangable on disk...
[07:45] <ogra> giftnudel, costs 
[07:45] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: then i think you will find that dapper by april 20 is robust for your needs, in other words, i think your alpha need not be delayed
[07:45] <giftnudel> yeah, but publish an updated version?
[07:45] <Kamion> natroll: also rebuilding some bits of the installer after release is non-trivial; for instance it is not susceptible to language-pack-based updates
[07:45] <sabdfl> sbartleylinux: please discuss with infinity your specific case, he will know better whether you may have issues
[07:46] <mdz> giftnudel: we ship large numbers of CDs worldwide
[07:46] <unf> I have been using dapper since flight2, with no serious problems. So why would I need "bady dapper"? 
[07:46] <sbartleylinux> sabdfl, will do. thanks.
[07:46] <Kamion> giftnudel: cost, QA time
[07:46] <sabdfl> Xanadu: the langpacks let us update translations after release, but not things like input methods or keyboards
[07:46] <yaaar> unf; do you mean for 'baby dapper' to mean more than a flight delivered on/about 4/20?
[07:46] <giftnudel> ok, I see
[07:46] <sabdfl> ok, any other large-scale deployment impacts?
[07:46] <jdub> unf: (it's more about satisfying other users who are expecting an ubuntu release in april, and bringing on more people for testing.)
[07:46] <Aelor> Xanadu, and languages packs take much place in a CD
[07:46] <Xanadu> sabdfl and pitti: then english users won't see huge downloads later if they run preview release
[07:47] <sabdfl> Xanadu: they might: kernel, xorg, libc, will all be getting small fixes and stability, but that means package downloads
[07:47] <Xanadu> at least for the language stuff
[07:47] <pitti> Xanadu: they will, many packages will be updated until the final release
[07:47] <sabdfl> it should be safe to wait till release, then update in one go
[07:47] <jdub> sabdfl: perhaps, one last time, it might be worth using the word 'preview' again :-)
[07:47] <trappist> sabdfl: they'll get those anyway, right?
[07:48] <natroll> Kamion, I understand that issue, but I guess I fail to understand the significance of the installer supporting the different languages for those who don't require those languages.  I can understand the delay in being able to order the cds by those who require unsupported languages...i guess the logistics of selecting which cds to order would be terrible too...hmm..
[07:48] <sabdfl> jdub: yes, we can discuss the full schedule
[07:48] <sabdfl> ok, next big topic
[07:48] <sabdfl> kamion's
[07:48] <sabdfl> what will the effect of a dapper delay be on dapper+1?
[07:48] <rekrutacja> sabdfl, little bit offtopic: we are starting free textbooks (http://www.wolnepodreczniki.pl/, but it's just an ugly "we will be here in the future" page) project in Poland and right now we are creating tools for community. we would like to re-use ubuntu code of conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct) but we are not sure what is legal status of this text. 
[07:48] <sladen> jdub: +1  I think 'preview' makes sense;  because the feature set will change, just more things will _work_ by release
[07:48] <Burgwork> rekrutacja, please ask another time
[07:48] <Seveas> (household notice: more l10n discussions, offtopic talk or other rambling  ban)
[07:49] <rekrutacja> Burgwork, OK
[07:49] <sladen> s/will/will not/
[07:49] <Aelor> rekrutacja, ask on #ubuntu maybe
[07:49] <sabdfl> rekrutacja: afterwards, ok?
[07:49] <rekrutacja> sabdfl, OK'
[07:49] <sabdfl> current thinking on dapper+1 is we should delay 2-3 weeks
[07:49] <Amaranth> sabdfl: from what i've heard the best plan would be shortening the time for dapper+1, +2, and +3 two weeks each
[07:49] <ogra> sabdfl++
[07:50] <sabdfl> the "action plan" for dapper+1 is that it will be bottom-up "find awesome tech and bring it in" rather than top-down "these are the things we need"
[07:50] <ogra> even 4 ... 
[07:50] <ailean> do you mean 2-3 weeks on top of the usual 6 months? or 2-3 weeks on top of the original release date (6 months from the original release date of Dapper)
[07:50] <yaaar> sabdfl: what's wrong with just having dapper+1 six months after dapper? just have a one-time bump and don't try to make up the lost time
[07:50] <Madpilot> jdub, ++
[07:50] <Aelor> jdub, +1
[07:50] <Kamion> I like jdub's plan, but we need to be absolutely brutal about goals at the next conference
[07:50] <MarioMeyer> jdub, ++
[07:50] <Seveas> Kamion, hire fabbione as guard
[07:51] <barsanuphe> jdub++
[07:51] <mwt> jdub++
[07:51] <sabdfl> in other words, the team will have something of a sabbatical from the tyrrany of sabdfl-imposed specs :-)
[07:51] <Kamion> yaaar: pushes it a long way after the GNOME release
[07:51] <theoddone> jdub +1
[07:51] <Mithrandir> Kamion: to be fair, we've gotten _much_ better wrt number of goals this time around.
[07:51] <Seveas> sabdfl, +1
[07:51] <Kamion> Mithrandir: you might have, mr. early-goals-achiever :-P
[07:51] <Xanadu> agree with yaaar - if you go completely out of sync with 6 months enterprise guys can't plan as well  
[07:51] <Mithrandir> Kamion: so it could work.
[07:51] <sabdfl> yaaar: we want to be close to Gnome releases again
[07:51] <sabdfl> because its nice that ubuntu is the first and best place to get new gnome goodness
[07:51] <sabdfl> we want to recapture that
[07:51] <pitti> ++
[07:51] <sivang> sabdfl++
[07:52] <jdub> sabdfl: however - fedora is shipping FC5 final very close to 2.14 release date. we ship our final one month later.
[07:52] <xhaker> sabdfl: more developers.. i think that's the need
[07:52] <sladen> I was hoping the dapper+1 would be straight back on track.  with Dapper out, the need for a *really* stable release should be catered for I'm expecting/hoping that dapper+1 be a scramble for features and to sync back to GNOME.  It shows that Ubuntu can stick to a predictable release cycle and only makes exceptions when /really/ require.  A delayed Edgy effectively means a year to get back on track (50% of Ubuntu's existance) which is somewhat harder to 
[07:52] <ailean> so surely dapper+1 will suffer without the 6 months devel time
[07:52] <Lele_ete> I would like to remember that on 20 March Fedora Core 5 will be released....this delay might not shift some user from Ubuntu to fedora ?
[07:52] <Seveas> sabdfl, the way I see it: Dapper is the culmination of 2 years of hard work by a growing number of people. Dapper+1 will start a new cycle which can start 'slowly' ie with less features
[07:53] <Seveas> Lele_ete, completely irrelevant
[07:53] <sabdfl> Kamion: do you think its realistic to reduce features for dapper+1 substantially?
[07:53] <Seveas> dapper was after that already
[07:53] <yaaar> so, what's the next major gnome release date?
[07:53] <sabdfl> just say to guys "pick your top 2, get them approved, and the rest is sync time"?
[07:53] <Seveas> yaaar, tomorrow
[07:53] <mdz> Lele_ete: we will continue to make Ubuntu the best distribution we can, and users will decide based on that
[07:53] <Kamion> sabdfl: I don't see why not, if we're careful
[07:53] <yaaar> Seveas: oh, i knew that...i mneant the one after that
[07:53] <Amaranth> yaaar: 6 months from tomorrow is 2.16
[07:53] <sabdfl> i will be on a very tight leash, promise
[07:53] <jdub> *DRAFT* 2.16 release schedule: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
[07:53] <sabdfl> just, maybe, one or two new architectures...
[07:54] <xhaker> later
[07:54] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: a problem is that we've been saying that dapper is going to be boring, while Edgy Elephant is going to be shiny&bling.
[07:54] <sabdfl> mdz is rolling his eyeballs
[07:54] <jdub> sabdfl: please let kamion do awesome fixage on his awesome features. :-)
[07:54] <yaaar> jdub: thx
[07:54] <Lele_ete> I think the same....mine was a possibility
[07:54] <Seveas> sabdfl, you really need to be restrained...
[07:54] <sivang> sabdfl:  should this delay have any effect on integration with launchpad infrastructure? might be good to imrpove this as well if we're at it already.  </thought>
[07:55] <sabdfl> sivang:  we will continue to pedal as fast as possible on that front
[07:55] <sabdfl> ok, i'm not getting much useful vibe here on dapper+1 :-)
[07:55] <yaaar> is dapper going to enable turning on metacity's compositing manager, once the X drivers get texture-from-pixmap?
[07:55] <Seveas> sabdfl, general consensus seems to not delay
[07:55] <Seveas> lots of vibe in that direction
[07:55] <sivang> sabdfl: thanks :)
[07:55] <Seveas> yaaar, -ETOPIC
[07:55] <dholbach> yaaar: that's not appropriate here
[07:55] <yaaar> sorry
[07:55] <highvoltage> sabdfl: sorry, all out of ideas :(
[07:55] <sabdfl> ok, we'll ask the TB to discuss this separately
[07:55] <sabdfl> next
[07:56] <ltibor65> Guys, why this discussion? Let the developers make Dapper better, give them six months, and until the release of Dapper use Ubuntu 5.10 which is very stable and good. With it can one make all things.
[07:56] <Xanadu> beyond Gnome for a sec - what's the Ubuntu release cycle in relationship to Kubuntu?
[07:56] <Amaranth> that meeting is an hour from now, right?
[07:56] <mdz> not at the meeting tonight, though, unfortunately (sabdfl and I will be unavailable)
[07:56] <Kamion> Xanadu: identical
[07:56] <jdub> i'd just like to quickly point out that GNOME did exactly this when it slipped badly a while back
[07:56] <JaneW> mdz: will TB have a quorum then though?
[07:56] <Seveas> please - offtopic banning is now really in effect
[07:56] <JanC> Seveas: you mean not delay dapper+1  ?
[07:56] <sabdfl> jdub: did what?
[07:56] <barsanuphe> xanadu++
[07:56] <mdz> JaneW: if both Keybuk and mjg59 attend, yes
[07:56] <JaneW> mdz: ok, thanks
[07:57] <jdub> sabdfl: sucked up the shorter schedule damage and got back on track. having a shorter schedule is a good punishment. :-)
[07:57] <natroll> sabdfl, something has to give, the delay will make the dapper release more stable and featured, but will make it so we have to turn down the feature-set on dapper+1, which isn't what dapper+1 was supposed to be.  maybe we have to abandon the complete 'shiny&bling' mantra
[07:57] <Xanadu> s/Kubuntu/KDE
[07:57] <natroll> maybe somewhat-shiny&kinda-blingy
[07:58] <Amaranth> Xanadu: KDE has no steady release cycle, we pull in what ever is available at the time
[07:58] <sabdfl> ok, TB will discuss, we can take this up later
[07:58] <jdub> natroll: there's a lot of bling waiting in the wings.
[07:58] <sabdfl> ok
[07:58] <Riddell> Xanadu: Tonio_ already mentioned, kde (minor) release is after current beta plan, so a delay would help make sure kde 3.5.2 was in and stable
[07:58] <sabdfl> time for TB / CC commentary
[07:58] <pinkisntwell> an ksekiniso na kano translate apo rosetta se breezy de tha metaferthoun kai ston dapper etsi ki allios?
[07:58] <sabdfl> TB?
[07:58] <natroll> jdub, if it can't be completed within the schedule we want to keep, realistically, then there isn't much choice
[07:58] <sabdfl> pinkisntwell: can you google translate that and paste it here please?
[07:59] <Riddell> Amaranth: we use whatever fits best
[07:59] <Xanadu> any idea on KDE4 maybe making it into dapper+1? might affect d+1's release schedule
[07:59] <Riddell> Xanadu: not going to happen
[07:59] <Seveas> sabdfl, pinkisntwell speaks english quite well - it's not at all far-fetched to assume trolling
[07:59] <sabdfl> Xanadu: please, focus on the topic
[07:59] <mako> CC commentary?
[07:59] <sabdfl> mako: go for it
[07:59] <mako> oh, you want me to comment
[07:59] <aboe> dapper+1 shouldn't be delayed, XGL already in multi/universe, Beagle, so what will be new features???
[08:00] <mdz> sabdfl: I think we're the only TB members here and we've both spoken on this already
[08:00] <mako> i wasn't sure who was supposed to be comment
[08:00] <mako> or be commented to
[08:00] <sabdfl> aboe: i'm asking for TB and CC folks to weigh in
[08:00] <sabdfl> mako: go ahead (and hi!)
[08:01] <libervisco> TB = TechBoard, CC = Community Council
[08:01] <mako> i think i have a little conflict of interest because i'm working on the official book.. and it would be nice to have them come out around the same time :)
[08:01] <Seveas> mako, as I understood, the book deadline slides along with Dapper
[08:01] <sabdfl> mako: and on the same media :-)
[08:02] <Lele_ete> If during the delay you update frequently the 5.10 release....the delay will be more sweet....:-)
[08:02] <mako> right, but the books could be printed and such
[08:02] <Kamion> I'm worried about the repeated invocations of Parkinson's Law we're seeing ("work expands to fill the time available for its completion"), and I'm not sure if we're going to manage to keep a lid on that without locking down the archive (which is not practical for a six-week duration)
[08:02] <Kamion> I'm somewhat mollified if we bring dapper+1 back onto schedule, though; that will reduce negative PR impact a lot
[08:02] <Kamion> especially if we announce it along with announcing a delay
[08:02] <ailean> agreed
[08:03] <sabdfl> Kamion: so you're in favour of dapper+1 being in October, as originally planned?
[08:03] <Kamion> sabdfl: yeah
[08:03] <sabdfl> i think with the benefit of hindsight i would have proposed 8 months dapper, 4 months dapper+1 in Montreal
[08:03] <sagarab> agree with kamion
[08:03] <mako> if folks who are going to have the biggest headaches are alright with a plan to bring dapper+1 back on schedule, i think that's ideal
[08:04] <sabdfl> ok
[08:04] <sabdfl> mako: any non-book comments? upstream impact?
[08:04] <elmo> I'm not unhappy about dapper's delay, as I think it could definitely benefit from some more bugfix time, but like kamion, I'd like to see dapper+1 back on schedule
[08:04] <ploum> elmo++
[08:04] <Aelor> agree
[08:04] <mako> sabdfl: i don't see a huge negative impact now that these meeting have been held and opinions voiced have been considered
[08:04] <ploum> if not, I'm afraid to see a time translation
[08:04] <Kamion> I'd like to make sure it actually *is* bug-fix time - maybe explicitly allocate some developers to trawling malone for fixes
[08:04] <sabdfl> ok
[08:04] <mako> i'm less concerned with what the decision is than how it is made
[08:05] <mako> and i think this is the right way to make it
[08:05] <hunger> ssshs
[08:05] <sabdfl> ok
[08:05] <Kamion> I mean more widely that people's individual package maintenance
[08:06] <sabdfl> ok, can we ask TB to discuss the full ramifications of a delay (what happens to beta, preview, freeze exceptions, art, ui, doc freezes)
[08:06] <sabdfl> also, further discussion on dapper+1
[08:06] <hub> elmo++
[08:06] <sabdfl> my vote is for dapper+1 to catch up hard
[08:07] <ailean> when will a decision be made?
[08:07] <sabdfl> with the proviso that we consider the sync time and not kill everybody
[08:07] <libervisco> suggestions: preview in time, final dapper in 6 weeks, dapper+1 four months later (in time)
[08:07] <sabdfl> if we have to take two releases to catchup, that's better than finishing folks off
[08:07] <sabdfl> libervisco: join the TB meeting
[08:07] <libervisco> sabdfl, where?
[08:08] <Seveas> libervisco, here - in an hour
[08:08] <mdz> libervisco: here
[08:08] <libervisco> hm I'm actually not really involved with Ubuntu, just observing :)
[08:08] <libervisco> but ok :)
[08:08] <Amaranth> You'd have to know the main goals for dapper+1 before knowing if chopping 6 weeks off it's schedule will kill someone. But if these goals haven't been set yet (except in broad terms) then there should be no problem, people will just have to take that into consideration when setting goals.
[08:08] <sagarab> votes for 6 week delay with dapper with d+1 bang on schedule
[08:08] <GFDL> what does TB mean? (sorry for the stupid question :()
[08:09] <natroll> TechBoard
[08:09] <GFDL> oh! thanks natroll
[08:09] <natroll> np :D
[08:09] <ailean> i'd vote for that too - if votes are being counted . . .
[08:09] <sabdfl> ok
[08:09] <sabdfl> thank you everybody for coming along
[08:09] <Kamion> Amaranth: we've yet to decide the goals, and can take schedule changes into account
[08:09] <sabdfl> seveas, can i ask you to summarise?
[08:09] <natroll> sabdfl, our pleasure :D
[08:09] <ogra> if we really want to do that i'd vote for rather 4 weeks delay of dapper
[08:09] <Seveas> sabdfl, I'll add it to the existing summary 
[08:10] <roshan_> Instead of catching up, why not track Gnome 2.x.2 instead of the .0 release, since they are more stable?
[08:10] <sabdfl> after the TB has dedicated some time to this, we'll have a meeting with TB and CC to take a final view on the roadmap
[08:10] <mdz> roshan_: we track .1 currently
[08:10] <Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for anwering all questions/responding to all comments
[08:10] <sabdfl> NOW please send animal name suggestions for E to seveas' wiki page
[08:10] <ogra> haha
[08:10] <Seveas> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuNames
[08:10] <Amaranth> So I take it this extension is going to seriously overlap with debconf?
[08:10] <jordi> roshan: .2 doesn't add much more to .1, generally
[08:10] <Seveas> PLEASE RESPECT THE EDITLOCK!
[08:11] <ompaul> we did we are in trouble  Evangelising Elk
[08:11] <sabdfl> sivang: not coined. minted. now shush :-)
[08:11] <Kamion> Amaranth: http://debconf6.debconf.org/
[08:11] <sabdfl> thank you all
[08:11] <sabdfl> good night and... good luck :-)
[08:11] <mdz> good night, all
[08:11] <mako> is there's a very-soon meeting i should be at, someone please send me an SMS
[08:11] <alex-weej> am i too late for the biscuits?
[08:11] <ogra> ciao sabdfl/mdz
[08:11] <Tonio_> sabdfl: pleasure !
[08:11] <sabdfl> mako: it's TB
[08:11] <Seveas> mako, CC next week (time to be decided)
[08:11] <dippie> I wanted to comment and edited my comment but the discussion was so fast and didn't want to interrupt anyone
[08:11] <sagarab> thks all and good night
[08:11] <libervisco> night sabdfl, mdz 
[08:11] <sabdfl> but if you can i need someone to stand in for me
[08:11] <sabdfl> happy for you to
[08:11] <dippie> can I still paste now?
[08:12] <mako> ok, great
[08:12] <Seveas> oh Kamion elmo  mako sabdfl since you're all here: decide on a time please ;)
[08:12] <IceBreak> when is the 2nd meeting?
[08:12] <Seveas> dippie, meeting is over, feel free to paste in my PM
[08:12] <Jergar> I vote for drunken Guinea Pig :-)
[08:12] <Seveas> IceBreak, this was the second
[08:12] <dippie> ok
[08:12] <IceBreak> in how many hours ?
[08:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: we have to run, we are late
[08:12] <Tonio_> IceBreak: 45 minutes
[08:12] <IceBreak> oh really ? blah :(
[08:12] <Amaranth> Kamion: So for the last two weeks of the extended period most of you will be at debconf?
[08:12] <Kamion> Amaranth: sort of the middle two weeks
[08:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much for keeping us on track
[08:12] <sabdfl> night
[08:13] <Seveas> If anybody sent me a PM during the meeting and expects answers: yell now
[08:13] <IceBreak> what was decided?
[08:13] <Amaranth> Nothing, yet.
[08:13] <yonatan> lol
[08:13] <Seveas> IceBreak, nothing - TB/CC will decide
[08:13] <sivang> Seveas: can you please set the exact time on the TB meeting that follows at the topic? kthx ;-)
[08:13] <Amaranth> That's what the next meeting is for.
[08:13] <IceBreak> and where is mark ? :)
[08:13] <Amaranth> sleeping
[08:13] <Amaranth> even dictators need sleep ;)
[08:13] <IceBreak> what was his nick in the logs?
[08:14] <Tonio_> IceBreak: mark = sabdfl
[08:14] <jordi> well he's not sleeping, I can assure that. :)
[08:14] <Seveas> ok, time for cleaning up in here
[08:14] <JanC> Amaranth: sleeping would be early  ;)
[08:14] <libervisco> IceBreak, sabdfl 
[08:14] <yonatan> aw aww awww...
[08:14] <Amaranth> JanC: ah, i don't know what timezone he is in
[08:14] <Xanadu> ta Seveas for chairing (despite numerous bannings ;))
[08:14] <IceBreak> i wanna join his company :)
[08:14] <IceBreak> j/k
[08:14] <yonatan> only just seen that the meeting is now, and it's just finished...
[08:14] <ogra> Amaranth, london
[08:14] <libervisco> hehe
[08:15] <yonatan> is it too late to butt in with my 0.02$
[08:15] <yonatan> ?
[08:15] <ailean> yep :)
[08:15] <Amaranth> yonatan: yes
[08:15] <libervisco> I really like this way of doing things.. 
[08:15] <yonatan> yea, thought so...
[08:15] <ogra> Xanadu, btw, what gave you the impression edubuntu had planned 2 NIC support ? it was never on the list for dapper
[08:15] <JanC> Amaranth: he's in London, about 19h15 there  ;-)
[08:15] <Xanadu> ogra: wasn't me
[08:15] <ogra> ah, k
[08:15] <Seveas> @unload ChannelRelay
[08:16] <yonatan> ach well, I'll wait for the forums discussion.
[08:16] <Seveas> @part #ubuntu-overflow
[08:16] <Amaranth> Seveas: neat bot
[08:16] <JanC> Amaranth: at least AFAIK ;)
[08:16] <Amaranth> Seveas: custom job?
[08:16] <Amaranth> JanC: i figured he switched a lot, like mako :)
[08:16] <Seveas> Amaranth, supybot with stock and homegrown plugins
[08:16] <JanC> Amaranth: mako is @ MIT...
[08:16] <IceBreak> was there a poll ?
[08:16] <Seveas> Amaranth, the bugtracker is largely homegrown
[08:16] <IceBreak> what was the general mood ?
[08:17] <IceBreak> for postponing or not ?
[08:17] <JanC> (Boston)
[08:17] <Seveas> IceBreak, there was no poll, neither will there be one
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: wasn't a poll, more of an information gathering
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: the mood was relaxed and rational
[08:17] <Amaranth> JanC: yeah, but it seems like every time i talk to him he is in a different place
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: most people feel positive about the meeting, i think it went very well
[08:17] <Seveas> Amaranth, not at all unlikely
[08:17] <Seveas> he's quite a traveller
[08:17] <libervisco> well it's easy to switch from place to place in a private jet ;)
[08:17] <JanC> IceBreak: I think 6 weeks delay for dapper, but dapper+1 on time was the general mood
[08:17] <IceBreak> and most ppl want to postpone it ?
[08:17] <Xanadu> IceBreak: It will be up to the Tech Forum and Community Council
[08:18] <sivang> okay, almost 45 minuts more to hack until next meeting,.
[08:18] <sivang> .
[08:18] <sivang> laters all
[08:18] <yonatan> ciao
[08:18] <highvoltage> IceBreak: i don't think anyone wants to compromise on quality for something that needs to be supported for 5 years
[08:18] <libervisco> woo mass quitting :)
[08:18] <Seveas> good
[08:19] <roshan_> Does anybody know when the CC and TB meetings are? And are they world-readable?
[08:19] <IceBreak> so why support for 5 years ? and whats wrong with patching ?
[08:19] <ogra> roshan_, here 
[08:19] <dip|aw> CDs are wrong with patching
[08:19] <Seveas> the TB meeting is NOT meant for reiterating todays community meeting
[08:19] <JanC> roshan_: they are here, but please don't interfere...
[08:19] <Seveas> it is open to watch and participate - but mainly for discussions between developers
[08:19] <roshan_> Only want to observe, but when are they?
[08:20] <giftnudel> look at the topic
[08:20] <Amaranth> TB in 40 minutes
[08:20] <enyc> Seveas: {where is the notes writen / wiki etc. based on logs/from this meeting?
[08:21] <JanC> enyc: notes aren't ready yet I suppose  ;)
[08:21] <Seveas> enyc, not written yet, but will be on DapperDelayMeetingProcess and pages linked from it
[08:21] <Xanadu> http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log for log (includes this morning's meeting)
[08:22] <Seveas> Xanadu, complete logs are linked from the wiki too
[08:22] <Seveas> there's no meeting now - i'd appreciate it if anyone who does not want to participate in the TB meeting later would just leave 
[08:43] <Seveas> The TB meeting will begin in ~18 minutes. This meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT
[08:52] <fstat> ?
[08:52] <Cached> Please do not speak in here. It fills up the logs. Thank you.
[08:53] <fstat> and where should I speak?
[08:54] <Cached> #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic, anywhere but here until tb meeting begins
[08:56] <ogra> Cached, that was only relevant between the twoo meetings today ... (but indeed that channel ist for general chatter)
[08:56] <Cached> There is yet another meeting in four minutes, is there not?
[08:56] <mjg59> Tech board
[08:57] <ogra> Cached, yes, a regular TB meeting
[08:57] <Keybuk> TB meeting will be in 3 minutes, take your typing/workrave breaks now :)
[08:58] <Seveas> ogra, Keybuk: I expect lots of offtopicness from unknowing users who stayed after the meeting - should I play 'bad police guy' and mute them so it doesn't interfere with the meeting?
[08:58] <Keybuk> Seveas: please
[08:58] <GFDL> when can I send question to you seveas? after the meeting begins?
[08:58] <Seveas> ok so consider yourself warned everybody - the TB meeting is not for general questions from the community
[08:59] <GFDL> oh!
[08:59] <GFDL> ok
[08:59] <Seveas> if you interfere with the meeting you WILL be muted/banned/pitied by Mr. T
[08:59] <raphink> hehe
[08:59] <Seveas> general questiions can be sent to my via private message
[08:59] <raphink> GFDL: this is a public meeting anyway, so you can stay and watch :)
[08:59] <Cached> it is for input from the community though, is it not?
[08:59] <Seveas> Cached, no
[08:59] <Keybuk> Cached: if items are on the agenda, yes
[08:59] <Keybuk> otherwise no
[09:00] <Seveas> those meetings were earlier today
[09:00] <Keybuk> ok
[09:00] <Keybuk> by my clock, it is now 8pm
[09:00] <GFDL> ok
[09:00] <Cached> So we just get to watch them have all the fun?
[09:00] <Keybuk> sabdfl and mdz are aware today, so I'm driving
[09:00] <Keybuk> mjg59 is here, so we are quorate
[09:00] <mjg59> s/aware/away/
[09:00] <Keybuk> uh, yes
[09:00] <Keybuk> I didn't say my driving was any good :)
[09:00] <raphink> yes it's o'clock now
[09:00] <Keybuk> IMPORTANT NOTE
[09:00] <Keybuk> THIS IS NOT A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE DAPPER DELAY
[09:01] <mjg59> Ok. There's a lot on the agenda. What order are we going to take this in?
[09:01] <Keybuk> If you wanted to attend those meetings, you missed them, sorry;  read the IRC logs and posted summaries to find out what happened
[09:01] <Keybuk> We'll be going down the usual TB agenda, and if your hot topic isn't on there ... *now* ... please wait until the end of the meeting
[09:01] <ogra> wow, sladen owns the agenda
[09:01] <Keybuk> mjg59: top-down I guess
[09:01] <raphink> hehe
[09:01] <Keybuk> unless there is anyone here who has an agenda item and needs to make a fast exit?
[09:02] <Kamion> I'd like to get away soon, but I'm early on the agenda anyway
[09:02] <Keybuk> Kamion: let's do you first then, as I think we have a few candiates today
[09:02] <Keybuk> floor is yours
[09:02] <ogra> i think the first topic is a no brainer
[09:02] <Kamion> "Should we produce new installer and CD images for this [WWW]  serious installer vulnerability? At present, users installing Breezy must make sure to upgrade from -security before adding any other local users, which I think will result in a number of vulnerable systems in practice. On the other hand, it's not as if we can rev shipit CDs at this point."
[09:02] <Kamion> link being http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1, in case anyone somehow managed to miss it
[09:03] <GFDL> Kamion, I wanted to ask that too in todays meeting
[09:03] <Kamion> so, we regained a fair bit of the enormously bad press from the vulnerability by doing a same-day fix
[09:03] <Kamion> a number of people asked whether we'd be making updated images available
[09:04] <Keybuk> Kamion: how much work would it be to make updated images?
[09:04] <Keybuk> I guess only -install matters?
[09:04] <sladen> Kamion: if the CD images are just a rebuild, yes.  If shipit CDs are going to continue being posted through the 6-week extension, yes.  And if not, other people like cheeplinux and private pressers may benefit
[09:04] <Kamion> I chatted briefly to mdz about it, and he said he didn't see a great need, but didn't really clarify why
[09:04] <ogra> Kamion, would be helpful for iso downloaders, dapper is still not stable, so we'd save people from the bug
[09:04] <Kamion> I don't have a good reason not to other than "might be a fair bit of work", which I don't think really cuts it for a problem this serious
[09:04] <mjg59_> Network problems appear at the most inopportune moments
[09:04] <Kamion> frankly
[09:04] <ogra> the prob i see is an out-of-sync with shipit
[09:04] <Kamion> Keybuk: yes, -live isn't affected
[09:05] <ogra> since we wont press new ones
[09:05] <Kamion> ogra: that's a downside, but we can label it clearly
[09:05] <Kamion> Keybuk: there is a certain amount of faff involved
[09:05] <mjg59_> What is the shipit process? Are they actually pressed in large batches, or more on an on-demand basis?
[09:05] <Kamion> if I'm going to fix it properly, we need to somehow get a rebuild of debian-installer into breezy-updates
[09:05] <pitti> Kamion: can't we give the updated CD a new version number?
[09:05] <sladen> Kamion: could you take the previous CD and just hack it with the fixed package, rather than building completely fresh CDs from the archive with all the other updates on them?
[09:05] <minghua> I think releasing a CD with different name (5.10a?) also raise the awareness of said bug
[09:05] <minghua> which is good
[09:05] <Kamion> pitti: that's part of labelling
[09:05] <pitti> Kamion: so that we don't change the original images?
[09:05] <pitti> ah
[09:05] <Kamion> sladen: that's bloody hard work in this case and I won't
[09:05] <ajmitch> Kamion: would it solely be this fix included, or others from breezy-updates?
[09:05] <Keybuk> my gut says that because the vulnerability is in the installer, there's more of a reason to update the CDs than the usual security reasons
[09:06] <Kamion> er, breezy-security not breezy-updates I mean
[09:06] <Kamion> ajmitch: breezy-security, and probably a roll-up of all fixes to date
[09:06] <fooishbar> D
[09:06] <fooishbar> (sorry.)
[09:06] <Kamion> which may not be a bad thing anyway
[09:06] <sladen> Kamion: bloody hard work --- rebuilding the whole CD, or just replacing the broken package?
[09:06] <mjg59_> Kamion: I think from a PR point of view, it would be advantageous to avoid shipping CD images we know to have a major problem
[09:06] <pitti> I got several mails and IRC questions about when we'll release new CDs, so users expect it
[09:06] <mjg59_> The shipit problem is presumably insurmountable, so should just be ignored in this case
[09:06] <Kamion> so, the hard bit is that the correct fix for this problem is spread over a lot of places
[09:07] <Kamion> there are core problems in cdebconf, which I've fixed in d-i svn
[09:07] <Kamion> fixing those also requires rebuilding debian-installer (to update the initrd)
[09:07] <dholbach> if we (or should I say Kamion) was to do this, we could put all securityfixes in to such a release CD - but we didn't really do "security CDs" before, so I don't see the need why we should do it now
[09:07] <mjg59> Keybuk: Should we do the more pressing stuff ahead of the candidate review?
[09:07] <Kamion> initial-passwd-udeb should be fixed to make sure to clear out the password from the database
[09:08] <ogra> dholbach, because the flaw is somewhat bigger ...
[09:08] <Kamion> and prebaseconfig and installation-report need to be changed to make the logs world-unreadable
[09:08] <ogra> and it might get us good press as well ...
[09:08] <pitti> dholbach: well, it leaves a trivial gaping root hole for peopel who install from CDs; it's the worst hole we had so far
[09:08] <Kamion> dholbach: it's harder *not* to include everything else in breezy-security than it is just to include it
[09:08] <mjg59_> Kamion: Are there any especially awkward problems, or is it just something that takes time?
[09:08] <Keybuk> My vote is to update the CDs, I think; it seems prudent
[09:09] <Kamion> sladen: fixes in lots of places, would have to establish a well-publicised source repository somewhere to satisfy GPL etc. - less work to just punt through breezy-security frankly
[09:09] <dholbach> Kamion: I see, then it'd make sense to discuss a security release.
[09:09] <ogra> Keybuk++
[09:09] <sladen> my worry is that the new package set will be larger than the CD size, meaning that you have to drop something and the package set != to the previous Breezy install set
[09:09] <Kamion> I realise we've not done a security CD before, and we hoped we wouldn't have to
[09:09] <Kamion> which is why I brought it up here
[09:09] <Keybuk> Kamion: we may end up doing them for dapper, given its long support cycle; it could be a good test
[09:09] <ogra> yeah
[09:10] <pitti> keybuk was faster with typing, my thought
[09:10] <Kamion> mjg59_: figuring out how to get debian-installer into breezy-security will be the only really hard bit; I may have to talk to cprov and Kinnison for that
[09:10] <zeus> what would be involved in a security cd release ?
[09:10] <Moox> Dapper desktop will be suported during 3 years. Does this mean there will be only security updates on apps and no big update ? (eq gaim 1.5->2.0)
[09:10] <ogra> zeus, mainly Kamion 
[09:10] <Keybuk> zeus: Kamion has just covered that
[09:10] <Kamion> zeus: rebuild CDs with packages from breezy + breezy-security, test lots and lots
[09:10] <Keybuk> Moox: that is off topic; please see the Ubuntu wiki for the answer to that question
[09:10] <mjg59_> Kamion: Ok. If this is something that would potentially have to be done in the dapper timeframe /anyway/, it seems reasonable
[09:11] <mjg59> I think security images/scheduling/candidate review/everything else might be a plan
[09:11] <mjg59_> I think I'm with keybuk - it sounds like we ought to do this
[09:11] <Kamion> we're putting in a number of changes now to make this whole class of vulnerability impossible in the future, but obviously I wouldn't like to entirely rule out the possibility of some other serious flaw
[09:11] <Seveas> Kamion, if you need help testing the install CD - poke me
[09:11] <Keybuk> Kamion: are you happy to do it?  Feel free to rope in anyone else to help (including me, given I have all three archs)
[09:11] <mjg59_> Anyone have any violent objections?
[09:11] <Kamion> I'm happy to do the code changes, but given my other responsibilities I will only have time for cursory testing
[09:12] <pitti> I'm happy to help out with testing
[09:12] <ogra> me too
[09:12] <sladen> it's more than a bit embarassing that the CDs going out from the factory still have that hole on them.  We're lucky, if this was Microsoft, they would have to have destoried all the stocked CDs so far and start again
[09:12] <Kamion> sladen: point taken; let me just check sizes
[09:12] <kbrooks> hi.
[09:12] <kbrooks> ping.
[09:12] <Keybuk> sladen: I'll talk to Jane about whether we can replace the ISO images they have
[09:12] <Kamion> sladen: we have between 5MB and 33MB free on CD images, varying by architecture
[09:12] <mjg59_> sladen: That's not entirely true. Windows CDs with critical security flaws have been shipped before
[09:12] <Kamion> in breezy
[09:12] <Keybuk> iirc. ship-it operates in on-demand batches, so it may be possible to do it; I'm not sure when the breezy run stops though
[09:12] <mjg59_> (known critical security flaws)
[09:12] <kbrooks> can someone summarize the meeting for me?
[09:13] <pitti> Kamion: I can't remember any security update that changed the size of the packages *apart* from firefox
[09:13] <Kamion> I think we're probably safe - it seems unlikely that we would manage to suck up 5MB
[09:13] <Kamion> kbrooks: logs are available on the web, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/
[09:13] <Kamion> irclogs/
[09:13] <pitti> right, even ffox 1.0.7->1.0.8 had only trivial changes
[09:13] <raphink> kbrooks: the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[09:13] <sladen> Kamion: excellent.
[09:13] <pitti> erm, -1 on both
[09:13] <Kamion> pitti: ?
[09:13] <mjg59_> Ok. I think we've come to a consensus here.
[09:14] <sladen> pitti: -1 on which and which?
[09:14] <pitti> Kamion: I meant, it was 1.0.6->1.0.7, not 1.0.8
[09:14] <Kamion> ok
[09:14] <pitti> sorry for the confusion
[09:14] <Keybuk> Kamion: you can name the CD version how you see fit :)
[09:14] <mjg59> Kamion: You here?
[09:14] <Kamion> yes
[09:14] <enyc> I would like to wonder the possibilities of ubuntu cds essentially being autogenerated... so they can be autogenerated with 'all secutrity updates relating to apckages in the base install CD'.... ;-)
[09:14] <mjg59_> Kamion: Sorry, my other session has finally caught up
[09:14] <Kamion> enyc: sorry, at present I sit with a magnet building the CD images by hand on a hard disk
[09:15] <raphink> enyc: that means md5sums are not fixed with release then
[09:15] <Keybuk> ok, let's move on
[09:15] <Kamion> takes bloody forever, I can tell you
[09:15] <mjg59_> Right. Dapper rescheduling?
[09:15] <enyc> Kamion: I see I seee ;-)   skay no matter ;-)
[09:15] <Keybuk> so Kamion can go play
[09:15] <XderalteX> Hi, what was the result of the meeting about postponing dapper?
[09:15] <Kamion> ok, thanks guys
[09:15] <Keybuk> mjg59_: I think mdz/sabdfl want to postpone that to a combined meeting with the CC
[09:15] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ugh. Right. Any idea when?
[09:15] <zeus> Keybuk, CC ??
[09:16] <Kamion> enyc: (in other words, they already are autogenerated)
[09:16] <Keybuk> given neither of them are here, and they haven't yet announced a decision wrt to the delay, I don't see how we can talk about it :)
[09:16] <Keybuk> mjg59_: none
[09:16] <mjg59_> Ok. Candidate review?
[09:16] <Keybuk> "sabdfl fails to turn up for his own agenda item" :)
[09:16] <Kamion> Mark would like the TB to look at freeze scheduling changes for dapper if the delay is accepted
[09:16] <ogra> mjg59_, sladen ? 
[09:16] <enyc> Kamion: ok ;-)
[09:16] <Kamion> before the CC/TB combined discussion
[09:16] <Keybuk> sladen: weren't you approved already?
[09:17] <sladen> Keybuk: to the best of my memory, yes
[09:17] <ogra> Keybuk, but not in LP
[09:17] <ogra> it slipped through i guess ...
[09:17] <Kamion> it predated ubuntu-core-dev management in LP
[09:17] <sladen> "somebody dropped lost key"
[09:17] <Keybuk> Kamion: ok, we'll do that after candidates then
[09:18] <Keybuk> raphink: ping?
[09:18] <raphink> pong
[09:18] <raphink> I've got an introduction text on my application here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson#head-afebebcae54ad32367aef6746d6e83eb22da8218
[09:18] <ogra> two liner ? 
[09:18] <raphink> to make it short
[09:18] <raphink> I am currently an active MOTU, particularly in Kubuntu. Lately, I have been focusing on fixing bugs and improving the Kubuntu desktop, working actively with AnthonyMercatante as the Kubuntu French MOTU Team (hehe). This implies working with packages in main, and getting them sponsored for upload afterwards.
[09:19] <raphink> There are not that many Kubuntu MOTUs but in order to help the current lack of Kubuntu core-devs I would like to apply for core-dev at this time. 
[09:19] <raphink> I cannot be clearer: the main reason why I'm applying is to unblock uploads to main in Kubuntu, because I want Dapper to rock hard! 
[09:19] <Keybuk> Riddell: are you here?
[09:19] <Riddell> I support raphink 
[09:19] <raphink> :)
[09:19] <Riddell> he's been forwarding me fixes to packages in main
[09:19] <Riddell> and I've been blocking when I've been busy with other stuff
[09:19] <ogra> raphink, are you aware that you can touch *every* package in main then, even the kernel etc ? 
[09:20] <raphink> yes ogra
[09:20] <ogra> and do you feel ready to do that ? 
[09:20] <Riddell> his fixes rarely need any changes, he's always very thourough
[09:20] <raphink> ogra: I think as the MOTU team leader you know my habbit is to aask questions before doing things I dont know 
[09:20] <raphink> I will never release a fix without asking the opinion of other people and testing it
[09:21] <raphink> s/spend/spent/
[09:21] <ogra> raphink, i trust your packaging, dont worry ... i just wanted to point out the big responsibility that comes with main rights
[09:21] <Keybuk> ogra: your tone sounds like you don't support his application?
[09:22] <ogra> Keybuk, i do 
[09:22] <raphink> ogra: i'm totally aware of this responsability
[09:22] <raphink> :)
[09:22] <Keybuk> how's his work with MOTU been?
[09:22] <ogra> Keybuk, raphnik has reviewed way more packages than i did before applying for main 
[09:22] <raphink> I've been involved in reviewing since before being a MOTU
[09:22] <Keybuk> ok
[09:22] <ogra> he does good packages and givers good suggestions on REVU
[09:23] <ogra> *gives
[09:23] <Keybuk> your application is very thorough, I must say; I've got no questions for you :)
[09:23] <dholbach> yes, he did awesome work, was proactive, helped people out.
[09:23] <Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions?
[09:23] <mjg59_> No, I think I'm happy
[09:23] <Keybuk> ok, let's vote then
[09:23] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:23] <mjg59_> Having more work on KDE in main would be good, it's certainly lagging behind in integration
[09:23] <mjg59_> +1
[09:23] <ogra> welcome raphink :)
[09:23] <raphink> :D :D
[09:23] <raphink> tanks guys :)
[09:23] <raphink> thanks
[09:24] <pitti> welcome raphink 
[09:24] <Keybuk> I'm assuming Joel Bryan is not here?
[09:24] <Seveas> congratz raphink 
[09:24] <RAPIST> so are they going to delay the release?
[09:24] <dholbach> rocknroll, congratulations raphink
[09:24] <sivang> whee!
[09:24] <dholbach> RAPIST: wrong meeting
[09:24] <Surak> congrats raphink
[09:24] <david`bgk> congrats raphink 
[09:24] <raphink> thanks Seveas,pitti ogra sivant Surak:)
[09:24] <ogra> :)
[09:24] <freeflying-ibook> congrats raphink
[09:24] <mjg59_> Ok.
[09:24] <raphink> thanks freeflying-ibook && good luck :)
[09:25] <mjg59_> Do we have Joel Bryan?
[09:25] <ogra> desnt look like
[09:25] <dholbach> mjg59_: I'll mail him.
[09:25] <mjg59_> Ok.
[09:25] <mjg59_> MOTU?
[09:25] <crimsun> it doesn't look like he is
[09:25] <mjg59_> Who's new since last time?
[09:25] <ogra> daf ?
[09:25] <mjg59_> daf appears to be missing...
[09:25] <lotusleaf> hi :)
[09:26] <minghua> I am new, I added myself for approval just yesterday :-)
[09:26] <sladen> he was around an hour ago
[09:26] <Kamion> mjg59_: you are ideally placed to hunt him down, surely
[09:26] <mjg59_> Kamion: He's sprinting
[09:26] <sivang> launchpad sprint
[09:26] <sivang> I suppose
[09:27] <Keybuk> minghua: ok, tell us why you'd like to join the MOTU :)
[09:27] <DapperxDrake> so are they going to delay the dapper release or what?
[09:27] <jjesse> some people just don't learn  :)
[09:27] <Seveas> DapperDrake, see /topic - wrong time
[09:27] <minghua> okay, I have been working with other MOTUs for a few months, and I've been doing merges, transitions, bugfixes
[09:28] <minghua> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua, launchpad https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
[09:28] <Kamion> DapperxDrake: barging into meetings and asks off-topic questions is rude. You wouldn't do it in real life, would you?
[09:28] <Keybuk> can you give some examples of the areas you've been working on, and what you'd like to work on next?
[09:28] <Kamion> s/asks/asking/
[09:28] <ogra> dsaa, edmota, jdong, JohnnyMast, minghua, freeflying and jjmmma are the candidates i think
[09:28] <ogra> please speak up if you are here 
[09:28] <Seveas> ogra, JohnnyMast - lol....
[09:28] <minghua> I am applying MOTU so that I can upload my fixes directly, mostly for scim related packages
[09:29] <ogra> minghua, you are a DD, right ? 
[09:29] <minghua> (but scim is entering main, so I am not so sure), but I still do other bugfixes
[09:29] <pitti> minghua: NB that they are in main now, so even as MOTU you can't do that (but it's the path to main upload privs, right)
[09:29] <minghua> ogra: no, but I am debian (co-)maintainer of quite a few scim packages
[09:30] <dholbach> and I'd be happy to sponsor minghua's uploads, as he always did good work.
[09:30] <Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: do you have anything to add to minghua's application?
[09:30] <minghua> I do plan to apply for DD if that's relevant
[09:30] <ogra> Keybuk, only a ++
[09:30] <crimsun> I've uploaded a dozen or so of minghua's scim & fonts fixes
[09:30] <Amaranth> minghua is the one that got us rolling on making scim work right
[09:30] <minghua> pitti: yes I am aware of that, but one step at a time, I suppose :-)
[09:30] <ogra> he pushed scim forward when there was no team around CJK yet 
[09:30] <dholbach> he's considerate, helped out, motivated and was an asset for MOTU wannabes, when they had questions
[09:30] <ogra> mostly on his own
[09:30] <mjg59_> I'm all for anyone who can improve our localisation support
[09:31] <Surak> dholbach, ogra: ++
[09:31] <pitti> I'd welcome minhua
[09:31] <Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions for minghua ?
[09:31] <minghua> and I do plan to post my patches before upload, so other people can comment
[09:31] <minghua> I think that is very important for MOTU to work together
[09:31] <mjg59_> minghua: Is your long term aim to apply for main privileges?
[09:32] <minghua> I am currently subscribed in launchpad for all scim packages I maintain in Debian, and comments on almost every bug received
[09:32] <minghua> mjg59_: now scim is in main, so yes I do plan to apply for main priviledges
[09:33] <mjg59_> minghua: Ok, that's good to know
[09:33] <minghua> I want to take care of scim packages (and in general other CJK l10n related packages, such as fonts) in ubuntu
[09:33] <atie_> BIG support from me for Ming.
[09:33] <ogra> atie_, not only from you ;)
[09:33] <mjg59_> minghua: At some point it would be good to document font issues, so it's easier for people to work this stuff out
[09:33] <mjg59_> But that's not a prerequisite :)
[09:34] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:34] <minghua> mjg59_: I think you are aware that bubulle is trying to form an font team in debian, and I defintely will participate in that
[09:34] <minghua> (and communicate/collaborates with MOTUs)
[09:34] <minghua> for the font issues
[09:34] <Chousuke> Is the second meeting over already? what is this conversation about?
[09:35] <mjg59_> minghua: Excellent
[09:35] <dholbach> Chousuke: read the topic
[09:35] <mjg59_> +1 from me
[09:35] <minghua> Chousuke: agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda, and please read topic before asking
[09:35] <ogra> Chousuke,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[09:35] <Keybuk> ok, welcome aboard minghua
[09:35] <dholbach> welcome minghua
[09:35] <ogra> welcome minghua !!
[09:35] <minghua> thanks mjg59_ and Keybuk 
[09:35] <ogra> :)
[09:35] <dholbach> I'm happy to see you in the team!
[09:35] <ogra> yeah
[09:35] <ogra> me as well
[09:35] <pitti> great to see you on board, minghua 
[09:36] <Keybuk> are any other candidates here today?
[09:36] <mjg59_> freeflying-ibook: Around?
[09:36] <mjg59_> Excellent
[09:36] <minghua> and thanks everyone who showed up for support :-)
[09:36] <mjg59_> Want to introduce yourself?
[09:36] <Seveas> (dholbach and others - I'm being the bad police guy and insta-mute - I also notify in PM so no need to msg the channel more
[09:36] <Seveas> )
[09:36] <freeflying-ibook> I come from China ,my name is Hou ZhengPeng have worked with kubuntu-team for months , and my major work is on Input Method and make ubuntu can support chinese better . And my goal is make ubuntu more friendly to our chinese people , and spread it in china  So I hope I can be a motu , and do more and more for my goal 
[09:36] <Surak> minghua: congrats
[09:36] <atie_> congrats! minghua 
[09:36] <freeflying-ibook> congrats minghua
[09:37] <ogra> i guess Riddell worked with you on packaging ? 
[09:37] <sladen> freeflying-ibook: have you talked to minghua or any of the other people working in a similar area?
[09:37] <Riddell> I support freeflying-ibook, he's been a great help getting cjk support into kubuntu, and has worked on a number of packages
[09:37] <minghua> sladen (and others): freeflying-ibook has been mainly working on the KDE half of the scim related stuff
[09:37] <minghua> which I am not familar with
[09:37] <freeflying-ibook> sladen: ya, i've talked with minghua about scim and also other people ,such as atie_
[09:38] <Riddell> his packages need changed often but he's quick to make fixes and learns fast
[09:38] <Riddell> s/need/needed/
[09:38] <raphink> I was not too happy with freeflying-ibook lately
[09:38] <ogra> Riddell, are you confident he's ready for working alone on universe packages yet 
[09:38] <raphink> but I asked him to review a bit to learn more
[09:38] <raphink> and he's been improving quite fast
[09:38] <raphink> in the last week
[09:38] <raphink> and asking good questions
[09:39] <Riddell> ogra: yes, so long as he gets his changelogs proofread for english :)
[09:39] <ogra> heh
[09:39] <ogra> nah, we need to learn chinese ;)
[09:40] <Riddell> that's the alternative
[09:40] <Keybuk> (random)
[09:40] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I want to know your opinion on using launchpad
[09:40] <atie_> he's big help for skim, I support him. :)
[09:40] <Surak> ogra: china is becoming so important than in some years the rest of the world will become irrelevant (I'm studying chinese anyway :-) )
[09:40] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: I'd like to use 
[09:40] <ogra> heh
[09:40] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I see that most of your patches aren't posted to launchpad and no malone bugs either
[09:41] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I assume for kde packages you keep good contact with Riddell
[09:41] <Riddell> he does
[09:41] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: if there has bugs, i will attach my patch on
[09:41] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: but for scim package I am subscribed to the packages I am interested in, and you don't send patches there
[09:42] <Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: have you worked with freeflying-ibook much yet?
[09:42] <ogra> nope
[09:42] <ogra> i dont know KDE :)
[09:42] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: for scim , there is seldom patch for it 
[09:42] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: for https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim-pinyin/+bug/34413 you did not
[09:43] <dholbach> Keybuk: I didn't work much with him, sorry.
[09:43] <Amaranth> minghua: i'm not sure this is the right time
[09:43] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I got your debdiff because I asked you (as Debian upstream maintainer)
[09:43] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: before this uploaded , I mail you debdiff
[09:43] <ogra> Keybuk, i tend to belive Riddell and since he'll break his packages i'm fine with reputation from him :)
[09:43] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: but I would appreciate you do these in a more open way, so more people can get involved
[09:43] <Keybuk> my instinct suggests that freeflying is making good contributions to Ubuntu, and should continue to do so; but isn't yet well acquainted enough with our procedures and systems to formally join the team
[09:44] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: about scim and relate stuff , idon't think now is good time to talk about 
[09:44] <Keybuk> would anybody like to disagree with that and raise support?
[09:44] <atie_> minghua, I'd like to see yours and freeflying's efforts coordinated since you need help for KDE part.
[09:44] <minghua> Amaranth: I am hoping he can use launchpad more, because I don't want to read dapper-changes to see a surprise
[09:44] <ogra> Riddell, ? 
[09:44] <minghua> atie_: yes, I am trying to figure a way to cooperate with him
[09:45] <Riddell> as I've said, I'm happy with his work for MOTU
[09:45] <Keybuk> mjg59: any questions/comments?
[09:45] <minghua> I am not unhappy with freeflying-ibook's changes to universe
[09:45] <mjg59_> I'd agree with Scott for now. I don't want to see Kubuntu be a poor second cousin in terms of localisation support, but I have a couple of qualms right now
[09:45] <minghua> but as people said, there need to be cooperations, and I currently have problems with cooperating with freeflying-ibook 
[09:46] <minghua> I don't necessarily need to care, though
[09:46] <Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: thanks for your contributions so far, please do continue them :)  however we're going to defer you for now.
[09:46] <sladen> minghua: could you work on sponsoring more of freeflying-ibook's uploads on the packages that you look after (if they're in Universe)
[09:46] <Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: please work more closely with other scim maintainers, and the other MOTU; also try to use launchpad more, especially Malone
[09:46] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: actually it's you say that you don't care the main inclusion of scim , so how can i cooperate with y 
[09:47] <Keybuk> not in the least because we use Launchpad to see your work
[09:47] <Keybuk> and at the moment your launchpad page shows very little activity
[09:47] <minghua> sladen: pitti said most scim packages are in main now
[09:47] <sladen> flikkeh: you have some excellent unique skills---that few other people here know about, please stick around and keep at it
[09:47] <minghua> sladen: but if he posted other CJK related patches, I would be more than happy to review and upload
[09:48] <sladen> minghua: I'm sure he will be :)
[09:48] <Keybuk> ok, let's move on
[09:48] <Keybuk> jdong doesn't appear to be here
[09:48] <Keybuk> and none of the other candidates are members yet
[09:48] <Keybuk> sladen: I'm not entirely sure what your first agenda item is actually *about*
[09:48] <Keybuk> could you summaries what you'd like us to discuss and decide here?
[09:49] <sladen> Keybuk: first or third?
[09:49] <Keybuk> first
[09:49] <Keybuk> "granted main upload..."
[09:49] <ogra> Keybuk, jdong didnt do *any* packaging with MOTU yet
[09:49] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: also feel free to mail me if you have any patches for packages in universe that you feel not suitable for malone
[09:50] <ogra> Keybuk, being added to the LP team where he was missed out :)
[09:50] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: thx for your advice 
[09:50] <sladen> Keybuk: it's irrelevant now, the ticky box in LP has been clicked
[09:50] <mjg59_> sladen: I think that we should avoid discussing the new features stuff until the decision has been made on scheduling
[09:50] <Keybuk> sladen: ok :)
[09:50] <mjg59_> Would you mind if we left that until later?
[09:51] <Keybuk> madwifi-ng is not being held because of lack of time
[09:51] <sladen> mjg59_: it would make sense.  It's dependent on that
[09:51] <Keybuk> it's being held because it flat-out doesn't work on amd64 :-)
[09:51] <mjg59_> Keybuk: The plan is to add it to l-r-m for x86 in any case, but anyway
[09:51] <mjg59_> (Not replacing madwifi)
[09:51] <Keybuk> aye
[09:52] <Keybuk> ok, let's look at that last item
[09:52] <Keybuk> and then go back to Mark's
[09:52] <Seveas> (from the nm-mailinglist: madwifi-ng cvs is quite crackful lately)
[09:52] <Keybuk> sladen: what's the strange behaviour you have noticed?
[09:53] <Keybuk> the most usual thing I notice is either an "0ubuntu1" upload to Ubuntu and a "1" to Debian that are identical
[09:53] <sladen> Keybuk: *blink*?
[09:53] <Keybuk> or a "1" to both with different target distros
[09:53] <Keybuk> sladen: "PaulSladen: Syncs from external repositories. I've noticed a few people doing fake uploads of duplicate packages into order to speed up the development cycle."
[09:53] <ogra> sladen, that was advised
[09:53] <sladen> Keybuk: syching back from Debian is taking a while
[09:53] <dholbach> I suppose he meant 1build1 uploads
[09:53] <ogra> because the LP sync mechanism isnt in place yet
[09:54] <slomo> yes, and it doesn't add a new delta as -Xbuild1 would be automatically synced and overwritten by the autosyncer with -(X+1)
[09:54] <Keybuk> sladen: syncing back from Debian doesn't happen at all right now, unless you have a UVF exception, no?
[09:54] <ogra> XbuildX versions are overridden by autosyncs later
[09:54] <mjg59_> Keybuk: It doesn't happen at all right now
[09:54] <sladen> Keybuk: see note at the end
[09:54] <mjg59_> Even for UVF exceptions
[09:54] <Keybuk> I must admit, I'm completely baffled here
[09:54] <ogra> Keybuk, there was a backlog on elmos side 
[09:54] <Keybuk> sladen: could you give us a 1-line summary of the decision required?
[09:55] <sladen> mjg59_: if packages are uploaded to Debian (to save having deltas against upstream)
[09:55] <sladen> s/mjg59_//
[09:55] <ogra> to get that done without LP it was asked that MOTU does XbuildX uploads
[09:55] <sladen> Keybuk: "what do do about syncs from Debian not happening"
[09:55] <mjg59_> sladen: I think the actual problem here is "syncs are not happening", not "it needs to be easier to do syncs"
[09:55] <mjg59_> And the technical board is not in a position to fix the former of these
[09:55] <Keybuk> "easier to do syncs" is a firm Launchpad spec
[09:55] <sladen> Keybuk: when there is a preference to send packages to Upstream---we can't do this if the system is broken
[09:56] <ogra> Keybuk, "do syncs at all" 
[09:56] <slomo> mjg59_: but the TB is fine with doing "fakesyncs", i.e. -Xbuild1 uploads?
[09:56] <mjg59_> sladen: And the problem is "the system is broken". That's not what we can solve.
[09:56] <ogra> sladen, where is the system broken ?
[09:56] <Keybuk> syncs are currently somewhere between elmo, launchpad and katie as I understand it
[09:56] <mjg59_> slomo: I would really prefer not to, but in the absence of anything else...
[09:56] <Keybuk> none of which have TB-oversight
[09:56] <ogra> Keybuk, syncs are manually done by MOTU currently ...
[09:57] <ogra> and not for TB, right 
[09:57] <Keybuk> sladen: where is the fixed sync system you are proposing we use?
[09:57] <ogra> it was an informal advise to use XbuildX  for now 
[09:57] <mjg59_> ogra: No, something that approximates syncs are manually done by MOTU currently
[09:57] <sladen> mjg59_: so what I'm after is guidance about how to cope with the system being broken.  What's the offical workaround?
[09:57] <dholbach> I consider this discussion to be somewhat artificial, all we seem to be doing is determining, that things could work better.
[09:57] <Keybuk> sladen: the official workaround is to do an upload of "XbuildX"
[09:58] <mjg59_> Anyway. I think it's clear we can't really do anything here
[09:58] <Keybuk> indeed.  It's known to be broken.  It's on the list of things to fix.
[09:58] <Keybuk> And there is a workaround which is being used.
[09:58] <mjg59_> So. Hypothetical dapper schedule. Does someone have a link to the current schedule for reference?
[09:58] <minghua> I think sladen want to ask TB to confirm that "-Xbuild1" fakesync uploads are okay for the current situation
[09:59] <Keybuk> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
[09:59] <Keybuk> ^ is the GNOME 2.15 proposed schedule
[09:59] <minghua> because some MOTUs are still not sure if it's correct to do so
[09:59] <Seveas> mjg59, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[09:59] <Keybuk> minghua: I don't think there's a TB decision there though; unless there is an argument *not* to do it that way
[10:00] <minghua> Keybuk: good, I have no questions then :-)
[10:00] <Keybuk> hypothetical dapper+6 weeks release would put it on June 1st
[10:00] <sladen> Keybuk: groovy, ta
[10:00] <mjg59_> Right.
[10:00] <mjg59_> Currently we have passed every freeze except beta, string and documentation
[10:00] <mjg59_> Code should only be changing to fix bugs
[10:00] <Nafallo> mjg59: except kernel aswell.
[10:00] <ltibor65_> Who is TB-member here?
[10:01] <mjg59_> Unless there are specific feature goals, I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should lift the current freezes
[10:01] <ogra> hmm, polish might also mean UI changes
[10:01] <Keybuk> given the emphasis on localisation, it actually makes some sense to me to thaw the UI freeze just in case changes need to be made
[10:01] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. UI freeze sounds like a good exception.
[10:01] <Surak> for the translators a reminder: string freeze is scheduled for the day after tomorrow
[10:01] <mjg59_> As another reminder: No decision has been made on the delay as yet. Do not assume that it will happen.
[10:01] <ogra> string freeze might also move i think
[10:02] <mjg59_> The fact that we are discussing this now does not mean that it will happen.
[10:02] <ogra> as well as doc freeze
[10:02] <mjg59_> This discussion is purely to determine what schedule we will follow if the delay /does/ take place
[10:02] <Keybuk> I'd push the entire March block into April
[10:02] <pitti> given that rosetta doesn't yet import everything in dapper, string freeze can certainly slip for one or two weeks
[10:02] <ogra> yeah
[10:02] <Keybuk> so leave us in FeatureFreeze
[10:02] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Keeping the weeks the same? That sounds good.
[10:02] <Keybuk> with a BetaRelease on April 20th
[10:02] <sivang> maybe we'd better wait for when a schedule has been decided? or , at least brought for review?
[10:02] <mjg59_> sivang: We decide the schedule.
[10:02] <sivang> mjg59_: now? :)
[10:02] <mjg59_> Yes.
[10:03] <ogra> theats what we do
[10:03] <pitti> sivang: it's IF delay is done THEN this new plan becomes active, not more
[10:03] <mjg59_> Or rather, we are currently deciding what the schedule will be if the delay takes place.
[10:03] <sivang> pitti: thakns for the clarification.
[10:03] <mjg59_> Keybuk: That's effectively a 4 week delay. Where do the other two weeks go?
[10:03] <ogra> bugfixing ? 
[10:03] <pitti> pure bug fixing
[10:03] <ogra> testing
[10:03] <Keybuk> an extra two weeks of Beta test reports
[10:04] <sivang> hardware support bug fixing
[10:04] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. With no string changes or UI changes?
[10:04] <pitti> preferably not
[10:04] <sladen> two weeks -> insert an extra week between each of the last two freezes?
[10:04] <Keybuk> hmm, that's an interesting point
[10:04] <atie_> mjg59, do you have a list of goals for localization and how many days needed for them?
[10:04] <Keybuk> the String and DocString freezes could be placed after Beta
[10:04] <mjg59_> atie_: I don't, no - not really my field, I'm afraid
[10:05] <sivang> sladen: you mean between FF and the UI ones?
[10:05] <Surak> what are the tradeoffs of postponing the string freeze?
[10:05] <ogra> atie_, #ubuntu-i10n (sprint people) might know (but they might be offline by now)
[10:05] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should aim to have the same amount of time between string freeze and final release as we do now
[10:05] <atie_> mjg59, localization maybe factor for schedule, isn't it?
[10:05] <Keybuk> mjg59_: I agree with you
[10:05] <Keybuk> what about UI-freeze?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Keybuk: That is, string freeze should be 6 weeks before final release
[10:06] <sladen> I was thinking between RC and FR.  But actually I think that time should be used earlier so that it can actually be /used/ and not spent sitting around waiting
[10:06] <Keybuk> should that be T-5 weeks or B-1 week?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think it should be independent of the beta. The length of time is more needed for translation time, right?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Shame Jono isn't here. It would be nice to have his opinion on that.
[10:07] <ogra> but mako was earlier 
[10:07] <Keybuk> right
[10:07] <Burgwork> is this something I can answer?
[10:07] <ogra> Burgwork, do you work with them on the book ? 
[10:07] <Burgwork> yes
[10:07] <ogra> so give an opinion :)
[10:07] <mjg59_> Ok. I propose string freeze to be April 27th.
[10:08] <mjg59_> Docstringfreeze should be the week after that.
[10:08] <ogra> ++
[10:08] <mjg59_> Translation deadline two weeks after that.
[10:08] <mjg59_> And then release two weeks after that.
[10:08] <Keybuk> right
[10:08] <mjg59_> That is, keep those freezes the same distance away from the release as they are currently scheduled to be.
[10:09] <Keybuk> BetaRelease on April 20th?
[10:09] <mjg59_> Yes, I think making a beta release on April 20th would be good.
[10:09] <Seveas> it should not be called beta
[10:09] <Keybuk> April	6th	
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	13th	Beta Freeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	20th	BetaRelease, UserInterfaceFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	27th	StringFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> May	4th	DocumentationStringFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	11th
[10:09] <robotgeek> translation of documentation can only begin after doc string freeze, how does it exactly improve document translation?
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	18th	NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	25th	ReleaseCandidate, LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
[10:09] <Keybuk> June	1st	FinalRelease
[10:09] <Seveas> it should be a PR boost
[10:09] <mjg59_> Seveas: Naming is not our field.
[10:09] <ogra> Seveas, jdub will rename it properly
[10:09] <Seveas> ogra, I'm scared....
[10:09] <Burgwork> the docteam wants to be mostly frozen for the beta, due to having great testing for that release
[10:09] <ogra> :)
[10:09] <Keybuk> that gives us an extra 5 (not 4) weeks until Beta
[10:10] <Keybuk> and an extra week between Beta and Release
[10:10] <mjg59_> Ok. How many people do we have here from the doc team?
[10:10] <Burgwork> so I would keep the docteam string freeze the same as the beta
[10:11] <mjg59_> robotgeek: How much extra time do you (and the translaters) realistically need?
[10:11] <Nafallo> should we really move the kernel freeze?
[10:11] <atie_> what if beta on April 20th not achieved for localization goals, do we postpone them to dapper+1?
[10:11] <Keybuk> Nafallo: it makes sense for the kernel to be frozen relative to the release
[10:11] <Keybuk> not relative to now
[10:11] <robotgeek> mjg59_: i am quite new to the doc team, i am not sure about translation times. i was hoping someone else could enlighten me on the issue
[10:12] <mjg59_> The kernel freeze is a hard freeze.
[10:12] <Burgwork> mjg59, we are well on track to meeting the current string freeze
[10:12] <mjg59_> Keeping it slushy for bug-fixing is sensible.
[10:12] <Burgwork> even without it being bumped back
[10:12] <mjg59_> Burgwork: Right. So currently we're proposing giving you an extra 4-5 weeks.
[10:12] <Keybuk> Burgwork: that assumes no new input from the localisation work
[10:12] <robotgeek> the only problem is with sutff changing in the UI
[10:12] <mjg59_> What could you do with that time?
[10:12] <Burgwork> cleanup more docs
[10:13] <robotgeek> mjg59_: probably not much. cleanup 
[10:13] <Keybuk> what about documentation for espresso?
[10:13] <Burgwork> not yet in place
[10:13] <Burgwork> that is the last major piece we need
[10:13] <Keybuk> is that on track for the current string freeze?
[10:13] <ogra> mjg59_, renaming 6.04 to 6-06 in the docs :)
[10:14] <mjg59_> I think it would be helpful to have a proposal from the doc team on this
[10:14] <Surak> what about internationalization for espresso?
[10:14] <Keybuk> \o/  finally, my version numbering scheme (that I suggested back at the original "version number decision" meeting) is being adopted
[10:14] <Keybuk> (ahem)
[10:14] <Burgwork> mjg59, you want specific information about where we should move the freeze to?
[10:15] <mjg59_> Burgwork: I think this is something that should be decided with more feedback from the doc team
[10:15] <Keybuk> Burgwork: I'm trying to understand what the DocStringFreeze is nailed to
[10:15] <Keybuk> is it "four weeks before Release, because that's how long we need to do it"
[10:15] <mjg59_> If an earlier freeze helps translation, then that's good.
[10:15] <Burgwork> Keybuk, currently the beta freeze, to allow greater testing
[10:15] <Keybuk> or is it "never change Docs after Beta has released" ?
[10:15] <Keybuk> testing of what?
[10:15] <jjesse> and to allow translation
[10:15] <mjg59_> If a later freeze helps the quality of the docs, then that's also good.
[10:15] <robotgeek> Keybuk: i think it has more to do with the UI freeze, cause we have to change stuff if you do
[10:16] <Burgwork> testing to see if the docs are crack and looking for typos, etc.
[10:16] <jjesse> i'm not the best person, but i thought doc freeze occured after UI freeze to help with translations and make sure there aren't major changes to the docs
[10:16] <sladen> Keybuk: that would leave us still in '''UserInterfaceFreeze''' ?
[10:16] <Burgwork> plus allow translation
[10:16] <jjesse> docs don't get uploaded into rosseta until doc freeze (correect me if i'm wrong burgwork)
[10:17] <Burgwork> afaik, that is correct, but I am not the best person to ask about that
[10:17] <Keybuk> Burgwork: DocStringFreeze to me suggests "no more documentation changes"
[10:17] <ogra> Keybuk, oh, yes, your list above had no new date for UI freeze
[10:17] <Keybuk> ogra: does, april 20th
[10:17] <ogra> oh
[10:17] <ogra> sorry, i'm blind 
[10:18] <ogra> Keybuk, no text changes, but screenshots etc 
[10:18] <Burgwork> we like to keep screenshots to the docteam freeze as well
[10:18] <Keybuk> right, given the changes in localisation and stuff, it makes a bit of sense to me to actually freeze the UI/String/Docs *after* we've already released beta
[10:18] <robotgeek> jjesse: that is correct, no translation before DocStringFreeze
[10:19] <Keybuk> but still with a whole extra week to do the work before release
[10:19] <Burgwork> let me raise the idea on the doc mailing list
[10:19] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should possibly get more feedback from the translators before making a firm decision on this point
[10:19] <Burgwork> as jerome and matthew are the best people to ask about this
[10:19] <robotgeek> mjg59_: +1
[10:20] <mjg59_> Since there is a firm desire for higher quality docs, and that's going to include the translations
[10:20] <ogra> i think we do a rough proposal only ...
[10:20] <ogra> anyway ...
[10:20] <Keybuk> right, I agree with ogra; let's put it forward as a proposal for the TB/CC super-meeting
[10:20] <Keybuk> and make sure the translators and docteam have weighed in
[10:20] <mjg59_> Ok. Let's go with that.
[10:21] <sladen> is it worth budging the Release an extra day to fall at the start of the weekend for mirror loading et al
[10:21] <Keybuk> there's a reason (that I've forgotten) that we do it on Thursday
[10:22] <ogra> someones b-day ?
[10:22] <atie_> most GNOME 2.14 application translations can be uploaded to rosetta independently I think.
[10:22] <ogra> :)
[10:23] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed
[10:23] <Keybuk> (thanks sladen)
[10:23] <Keybuk> so that's our proposal for a 6-week-delayed schedule
[10:23] <mjg59_> Any violent objections?
[10:24] <sivang> seems sane
[10:24] <ogra> since its a proposal only ...
[10:24] <enyc> The weeknumbers on that schedule dont make sense ;-)
[10:24] <PierPP> y
[10:24] <Keybuk> enyc: "week numbers" ?  the dates should all be a Thursday
[10:25] <sladen> enyc: any better?  29->33
[10:25] <enyc> sladen: much better ;-)
[10:25] <ogra> heh
[10:25] <PierPP> sweet
[10:25] <Keybuk> ah, heh
[10:25] <mjg59_> Ok. Anything else to do?
[10:25] <Keybuk> Any other business from the floor?
[10:25] <ogra> doesnt look like 
[10:26] <enyc> That.. would mean that 6.04 _would_ be there.. as a beta release!
[10:26] <enyc> and 6.05 would be the final
[10:26] <enyc> hrrm
[10:26] <Keybuk> 6-06 as final
[10:26] <enyc> well you can't please everybody _whatever_ you do!
[10:26] <ogra> nope, 6-06
[10:26] <enyc> oh yes
[10:26] <enyc> ;-)
[10:26] <Keybuk> ok, in that case
[10:26] <Keybuk> meeting ajourned
[10:26] <Keybuk> thanks everybody
[10:26] <ogra> yay
[10:26] <Keybuk> the next formal meeting will be in two weeks time (28th)
[10:26] <ogra> thanks Keybuk mjg59_ 
[10:27] <mjg59_> First person to post that schedule to slashdot gets sworn at
[10:27] <enyc> Well get on with it then ;-)   *good luck nice people* ;-)
[10:27] <Keybuk> there will be an additional meeting to discuss the dapper release before then, there will be a mail (from sabdfl) to announce that
[10:27] <Surak> mjg59_ : :-)
[10:27] <Seveas> mjg59_, just sworn?
[10:27] <atie_> thanks all, bye.
[10:27] <mjg59_> Seveas: I think the CoC would be a stronger issue otherwise
[10:27] <Seveas> mjg59_, do it the slashdot way: anonymous
[10:27] <robotgeek> 6-06? instead of 6.06 ? 
[10:28] <PierPP> Ubuntu See'o sex
[10:28] <PierPP> ops =)
[10:28] <mjg59_> robotgeek: Not our decision
[10:28] <Keybuk> robotgeek: there's an increasing consensus to change to a "-" to avoid confusion with people calling it "point four"
[10:28] <Seveas> ok, meeting over - tonight this channel will be locked
[10:28] <Keybuk> it's not a TB decision
[10:28] <robotgeek> i think that's slightly more works for us, lemme double check :)