[12:02] I've always wondered why monitors aren't square [12:02] I suspect it originally had something to do with difficulty of electron tubes or something [12:02] peoples vision isn't square [12:03] you have more vision sideways [12:03] hmm, true [12:03] hence widescreen [12:03] that's the theoretical justification for widescreen, isn't it? [12:03] the eye is a terribly ineffecient thing, we have a tiny tiny focus point [12:03] HrdwrBoB: i don't think they did it 4:3 first because of that [12:03] hmm, but I like more vertical space so I don't have to scroll as much. I must be brainwashed [12:03] xhaker: no, probably not, it would just have been the easiest way to do it [12:04] LaserJock: yes but you have to focus down the page [12:04] LaserJock: do you read much? [12:04] that's a convenience issue, you can't see the whole thing at once [12:04] Keybuk: principly to do with humans living in the horizontal plane (eg. we don't fly and we don't swim---so food and predators are on the same level) === Surak [n=ubuntu@20132199223.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [12:05] don't swim ... clearly you haven't read "The Aquatic Ape" :) [12:06] I recently got a 17" widescreen and I'm having a hard time adjusting to the width. I think I liked the ratio of a CRT better. === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:06] Pixel Pitch [12:06] 0.264 mm on my 17" LCD === lemsx1 is now known as lemsx1|gone [12:08] LaserJock: see, that's just tempting a reply along the lines of "width is harder to become accustomed to than length ... or so I'm told" :) === Keybuk hauls his mind out of the gutter [12:09] oh, wait, I was looking at Network Manager ... back into the gutter with me! [12:09] yikes === Gman is now known as GmanAFK [12:10] damn [12:11] I can't screenshot the logout dialog [12:11] is it bigger than a screen now ;-) [12:11] no, it's missing all of its icons [12:11] which actually looks a vast improvement, tbh === Keybuk doesn't agree with all this bling [12:11] hmm, what's the purpose of that BT tracker in dapper? [12:12] Keybuk: did you restart the session since you upgraded? [12:12] Keybuk: the icons moved to an another place, so code still running doesn't find them ... [12:12] Keybuk: that's just a dapper to dapper upgrade issue, I'm not sure I want to spend efforts on workarounding it :p [12:13] seb128: I was logging out to restart the session after an upgrade :) [12:13] seb128: btw, GNOME still steadfastly refuses to logout on both my machines [12:13] it eventually gets the idea after sitting there for about a minute === LedStyle [n=ledstyle@c9156ae1.virtua.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:15] Keybuk: usually that's either a bugged app doing session registration wrongly [12:15] seb128: I'm not running anything strange that I'm aware of [12:15] or lo beeing misconfigured [12:15] tomboy is about the only "alien" thing in my session [12:15] I've the issue quite often too atm [12:16] I'll have a look when everything else is settled a bit [12:16] we have time now :) [12:16] did the decision to shift dapper has been taken? [12:16] yes [12:16] ah, cool [12:17] desktop bugs backlog is not nice atm [12:17] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed [12:17] I've around 400 mails in my box and I keep usually 1 mail by bug [12:17] and I was at ~ 10 mails before going to UI sprint [12:18] Keybuk: when was the decision made? [12:18] that mean we got new bugs or comments for around 300 or 400 bugs in 10 days [12:18] which is ... utch [12:18] LaserJock: today @ maybe 19:00 UTC [12:19] now i get the impression it was earlier [12:19] xhaker: thanks [12:19] LaserJock: earlier at a special meeting of the TB+CC === jcape [i=jcape@71.194.176.102] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:21] Keybuk: hmmm, I think the doc team wanted to make an adjustment to the Slewed schedule. Should they talk to the TB ASAP? [12:21] seb128: utch is good! [12:21] what was the adjustment you wanted? [12:21] jdub: urg so [12:21] Keybuk: well, I don't know if it was perfectly decided, but we didn't think the DocStringFreeze should be pushed so much [12:22] jdub: :) [12:22] LaserJock: it isn't pushed? there's an extra week between that freeze and the final release compared to the original schedule [12:22] the confusion there is probably that there's more time between Beta and Final on the new schedule than the old [12:23] Keybuk: we were discussing having the DocStringFreeze on April 6th [12:23] LaserJock: that'd put the doc freeze before the UI and Strings were frozen though [12:24] which seems silly [12:24] Keybuk: yeah, I'm noticing that :( [12:24] why such a long freeze? [12:24] it seems odd to freeze dapper's docs two months before it's released [12:24] Keybuk: to allow time for translation [12:25] why would dapper's docs take longer to translate than breezy's? [12:25] Keybuk: I'm not sure but I would guess because there are more docs and perhaps more translations? I'm really not sure [12:25] Keybuk: mdke is the one to talk to but we have been discussing it on ubuntu-doc [12:25] that doesn't seem likely to me [12:26] we certainly haven't given you less time than you had [12:26] and freezing docs before the underlying system is frozen just seems wrong [12:26] you may end up documenting things that change [12:26] Keybuk: sure, but I think we where under the impression that the UI freeze would not be pushed [12:26] UI freeze has been thawed [12:27] because of the Localisation effort [12:27] with the emphasis on other languages being added to dapper, it may be necessary for UI elements to change [12:28] Keybuk: ok, well I'll email the doc team list and we can discuss it some more. We planned on sending an email to the TB once we figured out home much time we needed, etc. [12:28] right === LedStyle [n=ledstyle@c9156ae1.virtua.com.br] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [12:28] it does seem odd that you'd need longer to me [12:28] as that wouldn't explain why you wouldn't also need longer for dapper+1 === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:29] if you had a two month doc freeze, you'd have to freeze dapper+1's docs at only 4 weeks *into* the release [12:29] Keybuk: I think it might have been more like "we can pretty much be done with the docs by the present Freeze so why not give more time to translations" [12:29] also the later freeze doesn't actually stop you as a team freezing documents and preparing them for translation ahead of the freeze [12:29] though it does mean you'd have to play catch up with the UI [12:30] LaserJock: that was Corey's argument at the meeting [12:30] which doesn't play well with "but what if what you've documented changed" ? [12:30] exactly [12:30] and as I said, if a doc is finished, it can be translated in advance of the freeze [12:30] yeah, for sure [12:31] I'm ambivolent on the issue; the UI and String freezes were given extra time due to the localisation work ... so there could still be a balance there to be struck [12:32] I see what you're saying. I think we just thought the UI Freeze wasn't going to be moved. [12:32] so we just need to take that into account === mxpxpod [n=Bryan@unaffiliated/mxpxpod] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === nictuku [n=yves@201.10.184.190] has joined #ubuntu-devel === martink [n=martin@p54B3AE1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sharms [n=mindwarp@cpe-24-208-246-135.twmi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pietrus [n=pietrus@c925bd14.virtua.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tritium [n=tritium@ubuntu/member/tritium] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:08] the Orange finally proves that dapper is a Duck, I guess === thierry [n=thierry@modemcable108.90-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:09] you don't get Dragon a l'Orange, after all [01:10] lol === tritium [n=tritium@71-213-137-73.albq.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:15] Keybuk, the orange represents the dragon's flame [01:16] http://www.carpages.co.uk/ford/ford-focus-st-15-02-05.asp [01:16] it reminds me a lot of that [01:16] lol [01:16] all bling, and aimed straight at the chav/ricer market :p [01:17] we should have a Burberry Metacity theme to go with it === jdub keeps working on his green theme [01:17] as you can guess, I am not a fan of new Human [01:17] Keybuk, http://files.datawire.nl/uploads/o8901cyyFFFsz0gM9JcMRQ/5hOQkl6N7fsuzf1c9-GQdA/727-Oranje_supporters_klaar_voor_Duitsland.jpg [01:18] Keybuk: 'Numan' [01:18] the only human it reminds me of are those who smother themselves in Fake Tan [01:19] Keybuk: the good thing about 'Numan' is that every time you see someone running it, you can say it the same way Seinfeld does whenever Numan shows up. [01:19] what's that? [01:19] i'm sure there are samples on the interweb [01:20] plus I hate the new icons [01:20] jdub: lol, that's good === hendry [n=hendry@222.106.128.34] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:27] Holy Segfaulting X-Chat! [01:27] jdub: why do the Evolution header list column titles suck in Human? [01:27] sorry, Numan [01:28] Keybuk: the intensity? [01:29] Keybuk: dunno. [01:29] sladen, the insanity ;) [01:29] (i actually haven't run evo with it) [01:33] sladen: they look like a row of buttons, instead of a column title [01:33] ie. rounded corners and gradients [01:34] not to mention borders, instead of inter-column space [01:34] Keybuk: and the text jumps around in such a cool way [01:34] Keybuk: it's almost as though it were intentional :) [01:35] the scrollbar edges are *damned* confusing [01:35] it makes it look like there's a little bit of movement available [01:35] (when you're viewing 100% of the whole document) [01:37] there's a lack of constract betwen what's clickable and what's not. and the ends should be same colour as the middle section, rather than the outer section === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F4596.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:40] an improvement might be to have the whole 'bar' section highlight orange on hover and remove the 5px high end pieces [01:43] sladen: Did you take an executive decision on the reverse-video slash-down thing? [01:44] sladen: (FWIW, I still think it's both ugly and unintuitive, but whatever) [01:46] I don't think we need a progress bar or need to show what is happening, but that is just me === Aegir [n=richard@129.96.148.153] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:47] Burgwork: Well, in an ideal world, shutdown would take no more than a couple of seconds (a goal for dapper+1, to be sure), then I'd agree, progress is pointless. [01:48] Burgwork: When shutdown can take 30-60 seconds on some machines right now, though, we need to at least give a hint of activity. [01:48] (There's no reason why a desktop machine shouldn't be able to go from logout to off in 2 or 3 seconds, however. After the sessions is saved, nothing else should care about state on a desktop box..) [01:49] on my mini shutdown is faster than OS X :) [01:51] Does OSX suffer from the same traditionally anal UNIX view that "if you started it, you must stop it gracefully before we can proceed with a halt"? [01:51] i guess [01:52] Cause, while that's pretty true of certain daemons that will muck up log files if they're violently killed, 99% of what the average desktop machine has running should be able to get the plug pulled. [01:52] sometimes it powers off in 10 seconds, sometimes it takes 30 [01:52] Which will be a goal for dapper+1 (which also means the removal of splash-down again, so it was just a temportary hack for one release) [01:53] temporary, too. [01:53] infinity: i hope we can remove the log lines from usplash in dapper+1 :-) [01:54] Hmm [01:54] Implementing a UGA framebuffer looks like it might actually be quite easy [01:54] EFI seems to magically have C calling convention [01:54] jdub: get rid of the progress bar too :) [01:55] You just end up with a bunch of function pointers into firmware [01:55] Which is kind of magic [01:55] neat [01:55] Amaranth: The progress bar can't go away until the boot time is REALLY, REALLY short, IMO. === LinuxJones [n=willy@hlfxns01bbh-142177213080.ns.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:55] And the most basic support is just "Blit this block of memory onto the screen" [01:56] some status is warranted [01:56] jdub: I'm all for a default "non-verbose" mode (with an option for verbosity for people who like it) === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:56] infinity: but the progress bar kind of..jumps [01:56] anybody in here, who understandy enough about cpufreq, to explain, why it worked in breezy, but doesn't any more in dapper (kernel related problem)? [01:56] jdub: It's not exactly rocket science for us to do that right now. [01:56] but if the status could be displayed by a colour-changing spinner or something, that'd be fine [01:56] infinity: something like a throbber would be more appropriate, i think [01:56] infinity: yes, that's what i've been pushing for since we did usplash [01:56] spinner, there you go [01:57] I don't see how a spinner/throbber is much improvement over a progress bar that's not quite perfect. [01:57] At least the progress bar give you SOME indication of how long you have to wait. [01:57] osx has a spinner, winxp has a non-progress progress bar, but we can actually display real progress, so doing so would be useful [01:57] infinity: no, _the executive_, made an executive request [01:57] A throbber just says "I'm doing stuff, you may have enough time to go get coffee, I may be done in 5 seconds, you may have time for a nap, NOBODY KNOWS" [01:58] but some things take 10 seconds, some take 1 [01:58] and you don't really know if it froze or not [01:58] It's an approximation of progress. [01:58] jdub: Mm? osx has a spinner and a progress bar [01:58] The progress bar appears once the graphics driver is up [01:58] And, unless your system is completely hardlocked, there's a fair chance that even on a "freeze", your spinner/throbber would keep spinning/throbbing, so that's no help. [01:58] mjg59: yeah [01:58] last time i paid attention the bar only moves once something finishes [01:59] (I have a Windows installation that just blindly keeps "progressing" forever, but never actually boots. [01:59] Having both seems mad [01:59] Having actually used osx now, I'm not terribly keen on it [01:59] It's shiny, but I've made it fall over several times [02:00] mjg59: the finder is a wreck [02:00] I guess it's the case that people subconsciously realise that certain things will explode and avoid doing them, and then claim that other OSs (where they don't have that) are worse [02:00] sladen: Fair enough. Last I heard from him, we were still debating it a bit. Then you sent me patches with no context (which I was going to follow up on later), but whatever. :) [02:00] mjg59: and the dock is worthless [02:00] mjg59: apple-tab and quicksilver make it usable === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:00] sladen: When it hits the archive, I'll let the comunity argue about it. I don't actually care that deeply. [02:00] mjg59: but i've never had OS X kernel panic or anything, except when i ran the ext2fsx driver on tiger [02:01] I don't panic on Dapper either. [02:01] infinity: I agree thoughly, my take was that it didn't actually look any worse, so... :) [02:01] But I do suffer occasional video lockups. Our video situation is pretty sad. [02:01] i did once, when i tried running with the bcm43xx driver from svn [02:03] If only we shipped video from exactly two vendors, who were both friendly with us, and employed a mess of hackers to make those two vendors' cards work flawlessly. Hrm. [02:04] hehe [02:04] I'm starting to sense that the solution to any of our stability problems is to sell an "Ubuntu Computer", and tell people that you CAN run Ubuntu on other machines, but we won't support it. === bddebian [n=bddebian@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:05] Oh, and we should charge twice as much for that "Ubuntu Computer" as you'd pay for putting together similar parts yourself. [02:05] infinity: I think my initramfs might be jacked, do you want a copy? [02:06] bddebian: Only if it's not jacked due to -ENOSPACE on /tmp or /boot (in which case, the bug is filed in triplicate, and I need to fix it) [02:06] bddebian: Anything else, and yeah, I'd love a copy. [02:06] infinity: No, it's missing cpqarray [02:07] bddebian: And a description of the jackitude. [02:07] OK, I'll snag a copy when I get back to work tomorrow [02:07] Erm, how are you adding cpqarray? [02:07] How am I "adding" it? [02:07] (It's not in the default list right now) [02:08] Oh, then maybe it isn't broken? [02:08] Right, if you're not adding it, and I'm not adding it either, we know the breakage. I don't need a copy. :) [02:08] I'll add it to the default list. [02:08] Install picked it up [02:09] If you want to stick it in the "scsi" section in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hook-functions and re-gen your initrd... Tell me if that unjacks it. :) [02:09] Installer and initramfs do things in entirely different ways. [02:10] infinity: Well I was going to stick in in /etc/mkinitramfs/modules and update-initramfs -u Is that not correct? [02:12] That would do fine for a test, yes. [02:12] It'll end up in the other file if your test is successful, though (in my next upload) [02:12] OK, thx === dborg [n=daniel@e182055113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === freeflying [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.37] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:20] has it become 6-06 or is it 6.06? [02:22] I'm hoping for 6.06, since 6-06 makes it more difficult to represent in debian package versions in a policy-compliant way. :) [02:23] when have we ever put it in package versions? [02:23] We've done it in security a few times. :) [02:24] And ubuntu-docs appears to use a version that relates to the release version. [02:24] umm, this is sort of a stupid question. Is there an easy way to tell the difference between Flight 4 & 5 livecd's? [02:25] LaserJock: what kind of difference do you mean? === mjg59 does another Mac install [02:25] Keybuk: I download a livecd but I can't remember if it was Flight 4 or 5 :( [02:25] LaserJock: md5sum. [02:26] mjg59: intel? [02:26] LaserJock: Yeah [02:26] infinity: ah, yes. should have thought of that [02:26] mjg59: great! === Aegir [n=richard@129.96.148.153] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:30] mjg59: have you got a macmini and macbookpro yet? [02:30] mjg59: you seem like you're about ready to progress to the next level [02:30] sladen: I'e got a mini [02:30] No macbook [02:31] hmm, I suppose it doesn't bode well if the md5sum doesn't match either Flight4 or Flight5 [02:31] I'm just working on making the framebuffer sane, so we can avoid this passing of kernel arguments pain === Znarl [n=karl@bb-82-108-14-161.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:31] LaserJock: rsync it to flight5, then... [02:33] infinity: you can rsync the iso's? [02:33] Of course. [02:34] mjg59: if you get to the point where you need an iMac tester, I'm available ;-) [02:34] LaserJock: Not quite - I've found the binutils issue that stops us building a bootloader, but once that's fixed we should have test images === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:35] LaserJock: rsync -v --progress --partial rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/dapper/flight-5/dapper-live-i386.iso ./my-old-iso.iso [02:36] LaserJock: Or some approximation thereof. [02:37] infinity: cool, thanks === AlinuxOS [n=Ubuntu@d83-176-121-109.cust.tele2.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock is now known as LaserJock_away [02:42] mjg59: out of interest, what was it? GCC4ism? [02:43] sladen: No, scary stuff I don't understand at all [02:43] It's fine with gcc 4 [02:44] Kamion: unlikely ping === theCore [n=alex@toronto-HSE-ppp4205808.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mat [n=mat@igoan/mat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === madduck [n=madduck@debian/developer/madduck] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Keybuk tries to remember how to include EPS files into a LaTeX-generated PDF [02:58] where's sladen when you need him? === rcliii [n=rcliii@cpe-65-26-158-102.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:05] Eh? This machine appears to have no UGA table [03:05] UGA? [03:05] EFI's graphics architecture [03:05] ah [03:06] Lathiat: it's short for AWWWWUGA! (as in the submarine alarm sound) === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:06] AWWWWUGA! AWWWWUGA! DIVE! DIVE! [03:06] hahaha [03:09] Uhm. [03:09] Can we re-do the UI for the SCIM config applet? [03:10] haha [03:10] too late! critical feature! [03:12] No, seriously [03:12] Why does it not know what my keyboard layout is? [03:12] Why does it have three tree heads that are entirely pointless? [03:12] Did /anyone/ do UI review on it? [03:13] "Embed Preedit String into client window"? [03:13] That has so many things wrong with it I'm not sure where to start [03:13] mjg59: really, this is something that we should integrate / do properly upstream [03:13] jdub: hmm? UI Freeze is weeks away :) [03:13] plenty of time to fix it [03:14] where "fix" will involve quite a bit of "rewrite" work [03:14] jdub: It's worse than the old Xscreensaver one [03:14] yeah [03:14] It's like those preferences apps that you get with laptops that have plainly been written by some technical guy who didn't run away fast enough [03:14] And has a default MFC icon [03:15] heh [03:15] Looking at it, it looks almost as if it autogenerates chunks of the UI (since there are several plugins) === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@pool-72-64-213-212.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dudus [n=dudus@200.245.31.150] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dudus [n=dudus@200.245.31.150] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [03:30] mjg59: the but about scim's UI is bug #3635 [03:30] malone bug 3635 in scim "scim-setup isn't HIG compliant" [Minor,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/3635 [03:30] mjg59: I am sure upstream would love a patch/rewrite ;-) [03:30] Ha [03:30] Yes [03:31] it has always been like this, it is just much more exposed to public scrutiny recently due to inclusion by ubuntu-desktop === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.10.66.120.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:41] minghua: Do you know anything about scim-chewing? [03:41] minghua: The build (sometimes) gets in an infinitely loop, and it sure would be nice to fix that. :) [03:41] minghua: http://librarian.launchpad.net/1744038/buildlog_ubuntu-dapper-hppa.scim-chewing_0.2.1-2ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz [03:41] infinity: yes, a bit [03:41] oh not again :-( [03:41] s/infinitely/infinite/ [03:41] infinity: I'll look at it when I gets home (in an hour) [03:42] <_ion> My attempt at making a NetworkManager 0.6 package for Dapper: http://johan.kiviniemi.name/ubuntu/ [03:42] infinity: fortunately I know the debian maintainer and upstream author well :-) [03:42] minghua: You rock. If you don't have rights to upload it (do you?) feel free to pass patchs through me, and I'll get them in ASAP to make my poor buildds happy. [03:43] infinity: I have universe upload right. but let's see how long it takes to figure out the problem first :-) === hendry [n=hendry@219.252.91.83] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:44] minghua: I'm sure it's not terribly tough to sort out, I'm just running flat-out over here trying to (re)bootstrap hppa, and juggle a bunch of other stuff. [03:45] Excuses, excuses :-) === womble [n=mpalmer@sponge.solutionsfirst.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:48] infinity: I'll try :-) === minghua now leaves for home, be back later [04:04] lol @ Jeff's blog post === LaserJock_away is now known as LaserJock === minghua [n=minghua@69-153-139-36.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === minghua is back [04:12] infinity: there is a ubuntu patch for scim-chewing that I don't understand, it adds: [04:12] AC_SUBST(LIBTOOL_EXPORT_OPTIONS) [04:12] to configure.ac [04:12] I am not an autoconf/libtool guru by any stretch, so don't ask me. :) [04:12] the relevant changelog is "* Add patch for correct the configure.ac for LIBTOOL _EXPORT_OPTIONS" [04:12] infinity: okay [04:13] anyone autotools/libtool guru around? what is this LIBTOOL_EXPORT_OPTIONS used for? [04:13] Anyhow, I doubt (though can't really prove) that that's what's causing the infinite loop, since the loop seems more touchy than that. [04:13] freeflying? (since this is your patch) [04:14] (Note that it built find on some buildds, and looped on others..) [04:14] s/find/fine/ === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:14] infinity: yeah, I am just looking at the ubuntu patchs first === mbreit [n=mo@p54875FE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === natroll [n=natroll@68-190-90-101.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:37] i see devel people [04:38] Hm. Right. So the Mac wakes up happily through the assembly section. Now I just need to check where it's falling over in the kernel, then. === bddebian hands mjg59 a bigger hammer [04:39] natroll: :) [04:41] infinity: I think I have an idea now [04:41] infinity: can you modify the file po/Makefile.in.in, after line 259 (in the Makefile target), add [04:42] infinity: add "touch POTFILES && touch Makefile", and try again? [04:42] infinity: I can't upload to main so I need you to upload anyway, and I think the patch is trival [04:43] minghua: I can't try again on that buildd in any meaningful way right now, but I can try in a little while. [04:44] infinity: do you want me to file an bug? [04:44] minghua: No, I can use backscroll. :) [04:45] good, so consider scim-chewing back in infinity's hands now :-) === minghua goes to work on scim [04:46] and scim-m17n "not usabel at all" bug :-( === soumyadip [n=soumyadi@59.93.244.240] has joined #ubuntu-devel === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mat|l [n=mat@igoan/mat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:27] Gah. [05:27] minghua: Will the madness never stop? I think po/Makefile.in.in is autogenerated during build... From what, I have no idea. :) [05:27] infinity: no, po/Makefile.in.in is in source [05:28] infinity: but the debian/rules clean is apparently broken, so always checkout new source [05:29] infinity: it seems to me that the problem is po/POTFILES and po/Makefile is generated by the same command (cd .. && ./config.status) === irvin [n=vx@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:29] infinity: but po/Makefile target depends on po/POTFILE, therefore the timestamp skew [05:29] minghua: Erm, I was using fresh source. The Makefile.in.in I have halfway through a build is different from the one in the source package. [05:30] ouch [05:31] infinity: ah yes, the debian/rules run bootstrap, so Makefile.in.in may well be changed... [05:31] but I don't think it will be regenerated over and over (but then again, I can reproduce the build failure) [05:32] infinity: no, in my build the po/Makefile.in.in isn't touched at all [05:33] I swear I'm not making this up. :) [05:36] infinity: there is no mentioning of po/Makefile.in.in in the failed build log either... [05:36] No, there isn't in my log either. [05:36] infinity: are you sure you are looking at po/Makefile.in.in instead of po/Makefile.in? [05:36] It doesn't claim to be regerating it, but it's definitely different than the one I have in the source package on unpack. [05:40] Oh, feh. [05:40] dpkg-source: warning: ignoring deletion of file po/Makefile.in.in [05:40] The clean target removes it. That's hilarious. === infinity uses dpatch instead, since it's a dpatch package anyway. [05:40] So much for quick hack testing. === SEJeff [n=alicia@12-211-125-247.client.insightbb.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:41] infinity: told you that debian/rules clean is broken... [05:41] Right, so, back to the original question. Where is Makefile.in.in coming from? :) [05:42] If clean removes it (and clea is run at the beginning of every build), it's coming from somewhere else. :) [05:42] good point === irvin [n=vx@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:43] Perhaps it's an automake template of some sort, and doesn't "come from" the source package at all. [05:44] Yup, that seems to be the case. [05:44] infinity: it comes from the configure [05:44] That'll make it a bit hard to patch. :) [05:45] it bootstraps (./autogen.sh) [05:45] Yeah, it comes direct from intltoolize, I guess. [05:46] infinity: what about hacking scripts/remove-autotool.sh so that it doesn't remove po/Makefile.in.in? ;-) === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:47] Yeah, that might be the "best" solution. === infinity fixes. [05:49] does "pbuilder build" runs debian/rules clean before building as well? [05:49] I have no idea. dpkg-buildpackage does. Does pbuilder use dpkg-buildpackage? [05:49] yes, but seems it uses dpkg-buildpackage -b, which IIRC doesn't run clean [05:50] Yes, it does. [05:50] Only dpkg-buildpackage -nc doesn't. [05:50] (-nc == no clean) [05:50] infinity: yeah, you are right, saw clean in my pbuilder log [05:56] Oh, hrm. I can't even use dpatch for that, since the clean will whack the file before dpatch gets to run. :) === infinity sticks this in the diff.gz directly. [05:57] hehe [05:57] I feel so dirty. === infinity tests this on the buildd that hates him. === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === minghua wonders why this bug only happens on this buildd [06:02] scim-chewing apparently went through buildds of all debian archs fine [06:02] That may be a red herring. It may just be happening universally with a new intltool, but hppa was behind, so built with a different version. [06:02] Or something. [06:02] I dunno. [06:02] I'd just rather not have it happen at all. :) [06:02] new intltool... that makes sense [06:03] (And the fix probably belongs in intltool, really, if it's a breakage in a generic template... === infinity looks at that for a second. [06:04] infinity: yeah, the new generated po/Makefile.in.in is indeed different on the parts related to po/Makefile and po/POTFILES [06:05] stamp-it: Makefile.in.in ../config.status POTFILES.in [06:05] cd .. \ [06:05] && CONFIG_FILES=$(subdir)/Makefile.in CONFIG_HEADERS= CONFIG_LINKS= \ [06:05] $(SHELL) ./config.status [06:06] Oops... where is the "touch stamp-it"? [06:06] infinity: could that be the problem? [06:06] That does seem likely. [06:06] You may want to file a bug on intltool and see if anyone has a clue how those rules are supposed to work . :) [06:06] I'm just going to upload this dirty hack for now. [06:07] infinity: okay, I'll file the intltool bug === minghua never thought he could find a bug in intltool one day === Huahua [n=hua_@221.172.50.194] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:13] wonderful. now I can reproduce this infinite loop if I run clean before build [06:16] Excellent. === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dborg [n=daniel@e182055113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:28] infinity: that would be bug #35161 if you are interested === highvolt1ge [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:29] ah, our dear bug bot has left === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:36] infinity: thanks for uploading scim-schawing === infinity does a pelvic thrust. === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock is now known as LaserJock_away === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:45] where are the collection of Ubuntu diffs on debian [06:46] http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ [06:48] Burgundavia: cheers [06:48] hendry: np [06:49] hendry: beware, I understand some of the diffs there are a little wierd [06:51] yes. very big [06:52] it would be nicer to have some interface [06:52] it's unreadable to me [06:52] hi kai [06:54] morning === joelbryan [n=joelbrya@210.213.165.18] has joined #ubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:08] jdub: hello === No1Viking [n=Viking@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:12] what are these Italian Ubuntu deriv's called? [07:14] Uffico Zero [07:18] Burgundavia: cheers [07:21] are Debian maintainers considered Ubuntu maintainers? [07:22] hendry: I think no. and strictly speaking ubuntu doesn't have "maintainers", only "developers" [07:22] hendry: it seems being a DD makes it much more easier to apply for an ubuntu developer though [07:22]