raphinkLure: ok it works, so I'll upload12:13
Lureraphink: thanks12:14
raphinkLure: fix released12:20
Lureraphink: thanks12:20
LureJust compiled & running knetworkmanager!12:24
Lureit looks way better than nm-applet12:25
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LureRiddell, raphink, Tonio_: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6171/knetworkmanager5zz.png12:55
Lureeverything is documented here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/KNetworkManager 12:55
raphinkvery nice Lure12:56
Lureit just works!!!12:56
Tonio_Lure: very, very nice12:56
Tonio_ask mark now ;)12:56
Lureseen this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperCommunityLove12:57
=== raphink is about to test kpowersave now that powersaved built
raphinklet's try ...12:57
Lureraphink: great, this is my next thing...12:57
Lurethis is using sources from Mar 11, as the latest are not released yet12:58
Lureany candidate for packaging knetworkmanager - it will take me 5 days at least ;-)12:59
Lurewould be good if we could just add it to this test repository: http://johan.kiviniemi.name/ubuntu/01:00
Tonio_Lure: assimuing we have more than two month01:01
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Tonio_Lure: and remembering what sabdfl said lastest meeting01:01
Tonio_could be interesting to investigate a bit on that ;)01:01
Tonio_Lure: remember what he said about the fact that "if the community does the stuff for wpasupplicant and networkmanager blablabla.." !)01:02
Lureyeah 01:02
Lurereally, thanks to Johan Kiviniemi, who did forward-port all Ubuntu patches to 0.6.101:03
Tonio_Lure: indeed01:03
Lurethis will make it even easier to include, as there cannot be many valid reasons to reject UVF exception01:03
Tonio_Lure: I have to go sleep, but could be very interesting rediscuss that tomorrow don't you think ?01:04
Lurehe even backported fixes to wpasupplicant in order not to require bump to unstable 0.501:04
Lureyes, I have to go to bed also - I go for sailing regatta at 7:30 ;-)01:04
Tonio_Lure: amazing job I must say ;)01:04
Tonio_we have to talk that with riddell tomorrow, and see what about ;)01:05
LureI just hope we can succeed also on powersave front01:05
=== Tonio_ suddenly dreams
Tonio_powersave is more complicated01:05
Tonio_because canonical have their own stiff concerning acpi etc...01:05
LureI know. :-( I have switched to knetworkmanager as I was too tired of it... ;=)01:06
Tonio_although I also think kpowersave is a must have01:06
LureTonio_: but powersave 0.12 has hooks to support acpi-support (and suspend2)!01:06
Tonio_anyway, it might not be possible because is doesn't fit with canonical's plans01:06
LureSebas have tested it already, I just did not have time yet01:06
Tonio_duplicated stuff01:06
Tonio_when it is different with knetworkmanager, according to what mark said 3 days ago01:07
Tonio_have to go Lure, seya tomorrow01:07
Lureit looks like raphink is not getting back from powersave suspend ;-)01:07
Tonio_Lure: lol01:07
Luresey tommorow evening.01:07
Luregood nite01:07
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Lureraphink: survived powersave? ;-)01:13
raphinknot really01:18
raphinkit's too experimental for ppc01:18
raphinkto be used01:18
raphinksuspend to ram doesn't work01:18
raphinksuspend to disk can't be used either01:18
raphinkand when I close the laptop it crashes everything01:18
raphinkI have to force reboot01:18
raphinkso no I don't want that really01:19
LureDapper+1 then01:19
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LureHobbsee: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6171/knetworkmanager5zz.png01:19
raphinkI agreee kpowersave looks much nicer thank klaptop01:19
raphinkit has more options01:20
raphinkand all01:20
raphinkbut klaptop has a very good point : it works ;)01:20
Lureraphink: when it does not crash ;-)01:20
HobbseeLure: NICE!!!!!!01:20
raphinkklaptop never crashed on me01:20
Hobbseewant to make some packages for the rest of us???  *displays puppy dog eyes*01:20
Lurehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/KNetworkManager 01:20
LureI am new to packages, but if you can do them it would be great for getting more testers01:21
=== Hobbsee drools
Lureand I have to go to bet *now* as I have to go to sailing regatta in 6 hours...01:21
Hobbseeok, will look into it01:22
Lureok, good nite01:22
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raphinkhow nice :)01:46
=== raphink loves sailing
=== raphink is going to go sleep and dream of sails ;)
=== ..[topic/#kubuntu-devel:Hobbsee] : Dapper delayed || https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEspresso || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDapperGoals || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu || Join: http://www.last.fm/group/Kubuntu+Developers/ || Kubuntu meeting on #ubuntu-meeting on Thurs, 16th March - 20:00 UTC -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
nlindbladI'll dream about a girl then01:52
nlindbladnot a stupid boat :(01:52
Hobbseehow does one apply a patch?02:05
Lathiatpatch -Np1 < patch-filename02:05
HobbseeLathiat: thanks :)02:06
Hobbseeargh.  why do i always get an error in the make file?02:10
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ParkotronIf someone were to write a quality kcontrol module for XScreensaver, would Kubuntu consider switching away from KScreensaver?02:43
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Lathiatwhy would you want to do that? :)03:20
Lathiatkss rocks :)03:20
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Hobbseekpowersave is very nice :)03:36
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hungerhi there.10:52
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freeflying-ibookRiddell: ping 11:48
nlindbladiBook *jealous*11:55
Riddellfreeflying-ibook: hi11:59
freeflying-ibookRiddell: I've solved the skim's issue11:59
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Riddellfreeflying-ibook: ooh?12:05
freeflying-ibookRiddell: I nned wait l10n guys solce the input method stuff12:06
nlindbladI hate to be a git, but Adept and other programs starting through KDE-su doesn't follow the localization12:07
Riddellfreeflying-ibook: great, let me know when there's something I should review12:21
Riddellnlindblad: even through the k-menu?12:21
nlindbladRiddell: hang on12:22
nlindbladthe title of KDE-su is in Swedish, but the rest of the dialogue-box is in English12:23
nlindbladafter I've entered my password I get Adept, in English12:23
Riddelladept doesn't have swedish translations as far as I know12:30
nlindbladRiddell: there's an adept.po in the SVN trunk12:36
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superstoned2 questions, 1 about adept, other about the KDE performance patches -12:40
superstonedi seem to have changed something in kdm's config, now adept was unable to apply changes to the kdm package12:41
superstonedwhy not pop up the qt-frontend for dpkg-configure and ask the user?12:41
superstonedor auto-overwrite (or not)?12:41
superstonedsecond, are the patches for KDE startup as fast as XFCE applied to KDE in kubuntu? http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/28012:42
mornfallsuperstoned: why not pop up what -- well, why not -- because you don't have libqt-perl installed12:43
mornfallsuperstoned: it's recommended by adept12:43
superstonedthat's not default in kubuntu?12:44
mornfallsuperstoned: you'd need to harass someone to add it to kubuntu-desktop12:44
superstonedthat person would be jonathan riddell i guess???12:44
superstonedATM adept stops kind'a working, so this really is an issue i think...12:45
mornfallsuperstoned: just hit details12:45
superstonedthat way it asks the question?12:46
superstoned(already fixed it from commandline so i can't test it anymore)12:46
superstonedsorry for bothering, than, its not that serious i guess...12:46
mornfallsuperstoned: it shows debconf in the embedded konsole12:46
superstonedyeah, seen that. but one has to re-start the installation, as the textscreen would just be some 6 characters wide... that's weird12:47
mornfallsuperstoned: that's why i tried to resist the "hide konsole by default" thing12:47
superstonedyou can't fix it another way?12:47
mornfallsuperstoned: patches welcome -- however post-dapper12:48
=== mornfall whistles
mornfallfeature freeze :)12:48
superstonedwish i could help haha12:48
superstonedlibqt-perl would be a better solution, then...12:48
superstonedcheat, and add is as a dependency ;-) LOL12:48
superstonedyeah you can't do that12:48
mornfallif you come with a clever way how to detect waiting-for-input in konsole12:48
mornfalli may consider breaching feature-freeze12:49
mornfallif it's very solid looking patch12:49
superstonedsorry, i have no way to do that. i wouldn't even know who to ask for it ;-)12:49
superstonedanyway at least there is a solution. maybe riddell can add it if there is space left on the cd12:49
mornfallsuperstoned: well, harass Riddell :)12:50
mornfallsuperstoned: however note that this will only work if dapper still uses debconf (the perl version)12:50
Tonio_Riddell: hi ! fine ?12:50
superstonedwe've been using his name now for some time, maybe he notices and can add it if there is space left.12:50
mornfallsuperstoned: there's no qt frontend to the new cdebconf12:50
Tonio_Riddell: have you seen the job done on networkmanager and knetworkmanager by the community ?12:50
superstonedonly gtk, i guess, with lots and lots of dependencies ;-)12:51
Tonio_they apparently were awared of what mark said in the meeting, and wow, that rocks :)12:51
Tonio_I'm currently testing knetworkmanager, and that really rocks12:51
superstonedsh*t just crashed adept again, i got to remember not to ask for details when i started it from the Kmenu...12:51
=== seaLne hides Tonio_'s rocks
Tonio_seaLne: ?? ^^12:52
mornfallsuperstoned: hmm, it only happens when started from kmenu right?12:52
mornfalldamn kdesu12:52
Tonio_mornfall: any problem ?12:52
Tonio_works nicely for me12:53
superstoned'sudo adept' works fine, yeah12:53
Tonio_except adept is looooooooooooooong to start12:53
Tonio_about 10 seconds on my computer actually12:53
superstonedyeah, it's kind'a slow. but after a few times (warm caches) it gets faster...12:54
superstonedand when running, its much faster compared to synaptic12:54
superstonedstill think that's cool :D12:54
Tonio_superstoned: yes, when launched, it is really optimized12:54
Tonio_way respondive than synaptic12:54
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superstonedmornfall: is adept supposed to remeber the state of the filters? i always remove the 'tag' filter, but it gets back at me ;-)12:55
mornfallsuperstoned: no, there's no state :'/12:55
superstonedi'd say get rid of the tag filters by default - but its your call ;-)12:56
mornfallsuperstoned: well, if it's hidden people won't use it12:57
superstonedtrue, true. well i never needed it, but i guess others might ;-)12:57
superstonedand i wouldn't know a way to do the searching easier than this. the tags have their pro's and con's, that's sure12:58
mornfallsuperstoned: if it's around people at least have chance to start using it which in turn will lead to improvements in tagging :)12:58
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superstonedyou're right, yeah. and, well, as i was trying to say (but didn't make very clear :D) - the synaptic solution isn't much better, usabillity-wise, while not as flexible anyway. i think you did a great job on it.12:59
mornfallsuperstoned: cons being mostly work with tagging that many packages12:59
mornfallsuperstoned: and the fact that ubuntu completely ignores it12:59
mornfallkubuntu too12:59
mornfallso it's all on debian and my hope that it doesn't get too out of sync01:00
superstonedwell, lets hope you'r work gets appreciated enough to make them (k/x/ed-ubuntu) start using the tags01:01
mornfallsuperstoned: could you possibly file a wishlist about remembering the states? possibly in bugs.kde.org -- thanks :)01:03
superstonedbtw you (nor anyone else here, Tonio_ or seaLne  or whoever is reading this) don't happen to know about the performance patches? having Kubuntu start much faster compared to ubuntu would be cool... finaly being able to say KDE is DEFINATELY faster is nice.01:03
mornfallsuperstoned: (that way there's real chance i don't forget it)01:03
superstonedi can, yes, mornfall01:03
sebasWhich performance patches?01:04
superstonedbtw who did fix that dir-filter stuff? it works cool now (a dir filter in local browsing, google search online)01:04
superstonedpatches from lubos lunak.01:04
superstoned(scroll a bit down)01:04
superstonedesp this one01:04
sebasThat's fontconfig, right?01:04
superstonedmostly, yes. but KDE needs to be patched to use it01:04
sebasHm, I don't have a dirfilter thing in konqi.01:04
superstonedremove the konqi config01:04
superstonedso you'll get the default again01:05
sebasThat's "ouch" IMO.01:05
superstonedof course after upgrading ;-)01:05
sebasI'm up to date as of 2 hours ago.01:05
superstonedme 5 min :D01:05
superstonedit is in ~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror01:06
superstonednot sure if you have to delete the profiles and/or the rc files, so get'em all, then killall konqueror and start konqi.01:06
superstonedenjoy :D01:06
tomasuperstoned: it is safer to wait untill lubos put those in kdesvn01:07
tomasuperstoned: the patches are experimental imho01:07
superstonedwell, i've tried them on gentoo, and most are quite safe anyway. i think he didn't apply them because of the 3.5 feature freeze?!?!01:08
=== Hobbsee thinks it would be cool if we could have kubuntu faster than any other kde distro
superstonednot sure how usefull the are for KDE 4 anyway, at least not all of them will be needed, if any at all.01:08
superstonedyeah, hobbsee, the patches are really seriously fast01:09
superstonedfrom 15 to 5 sec (warm caches).01:09
superstonedthat beats gnome with 10 sec :D01:09
=== Hobbsee would love to see a testing repo with compiled packages with patches applied
tomaif they were safe, he would have comitted them01:09
superstonedmind if i send him an email?01:09
tomasuperstoned: we are living in a free world ;)01:10
superstonedgreat :D01:10
sebasHm, really no dirfilter here.01:10
tomakpersonaliser starts here at every boot01:11
Hobbseetoma: is it from a previous session, and then gets saved?01:12
tomano, if i reboot it is there again01:12
sebassuperstoned: How's that supposed to look like?01:13
tomaHobbsee: nm, $PATH is playing tricks here01:14
superstonedif you are in webbrowsing, on left of the locationbar you have the google search. now do ctrl-home and you'll see the google searchbar replaced with a filterbar.01:14
superstonedenter something, it'll filter the current directory's content01:14
sebasctrl+home goes to ~ here.01:15
sebasBut I've 2 google bars in webbrowsing mode :/01:16
sebas(That's with ~/.kde moved out of the way.01:16
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=== toma nods
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superstonedsebas, you can fix this: rmb on the toolbar, change toolbar01:22
superstonedgo too searchbar and empty it01:22
superstonednow the second google bar is gone, and it should work fine.01:23
superstonedbtw toma i send a mail to lubas and mornfall i'm filing the adept question (save state) in bugs.kde.org01:24
mornfallsuperstoned: ok, thx01:25
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tvosebas: huh, that shouldn't be possible... one google bar is turned off in kubuntu-default-settings01:27
superstonedtvo well, i had to do what i told sebas to do...01:28
tomatvo: i had similar, my guess is that people upgrading having the same issue01:28
superstonedtvo: just removed the stuff, again - and now i have only one bar. ?!?!? seems this is fixed in the last 2 hours, OR the problem is not in ~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror/*.rc or profiles/*01:30
tvowell, I realised it will probably be a problem for users upgrading, was planning to test that this weekend01:31
tvoI suppose the googlebar (and maybe searchbar too) should be mutually exclusive01:31
tvowhere googlebar takes precedence if they're both enabled (what would happen when upgrading)01:32
sebastvo: Hmmmm01:32
superstonedtvo: been able to get all this into the main toolbar, so we can have zoom in/out in webbrowsing, view choice in filebrowsing and stuff like that?01:34
tvosuperstoned: the kubuntu-default-settings upgrade was approx. a week ago, so unless you didn't upgrade or didn't rm -f ~/.kde/share/config/konquerorrc it shouldn't have happened :s01:35
tvosuperstoned: didn't try that again01:35
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superstonedtvo: i just tried it, i didn't get two bars, so it works for me (TM). but its weird it didn't for sebas.01:36
superstonedtvo: any idea how i could get these dynamics into the locationbar?01:36
tvothe plugin search/google bars you mean?01:36
superstonedno, no, the views in local browsing mode01:37
superstonedtree, icon, picture...01:38
superstonedsomething i used to show off to ppl: yeah, KDE can do this (gwennview, file size view, combined with some splitting it gets impressive and busy soon :D)01:39
mornfallcould someone rid #kubuntu of the pleasure that's called NoName?01:40
freeflying-ibookmornfall: ping Hobbsee01:41
mornfalldanke schn :-)01:41
Hobbseemornfall: not  problem :)01:42
Hobbsee*not a problem01:42
freeflying-ibookmornfall: seems you have op :)01:42
mornfallfreeflying-ibook: where?01:42
Hobbseei'd banned before, but it looked like it was just an incompetent user.01:42
freeflying-ibookmornfall: oh, no ,you haven't 01:42
tvosuperstoned: hm, I don't really follow you... you don't mean putting stuff in main toolbar so that the tabs stop moving up and down?01:42
tvoanyway, I don't really know code responsible for that, so I doubt I can help you with it anyway01:43
superstonedno, no. when we had the 'traditional' toolbar, it had dynamic stuff. when in filebrowsing, it showed some view options (zoom, other stuff). now that's gone, as this can ONLY be shown in the main toolbar, not in the location bar. so i wondered if i/you could get it in there, as the view things are usefull imho.01:44
mornfall*blink* what?01:45
mornfallsuperstoned: you can put location bar into main toolbar01:45
mornfallsuperstoned: i have it that way01:45
tvosuperstoned: ah ok, and the main toolbar was hidden by default, right?01:45
mornfallsuperstoned: it also works the dynamic way (location bar shrinks to the right here)01:45
superstonedyeah, i know. but you can't have the dirfilter in there, too :D01:45
mornfallsuperstoned: i'm not sure to understand01:46
mornfallsuperstoned: you can add actionlists to toolbar -- just need vi konqueror.rc :-)01:46
mornfallmerge as well01:46
mornfallmerge won't work in locationbar01:46
mornfalli don't know how the dirfilter is implemented in konq01:47
mornfallmerge merges only same "kinds" of toolbars AFAIK01:48
Riddellsuperstoned: add what?01:51
RiddellTonio_: no, where?01:51
superstonedyeah. i just moved <merge> to the location toolbar, but the zoom in/out still gets put in the main toolbar...01:52
mornfallsuperstoned: sure, that's how merge works01:52
mornfallsuperstoned: if there's no merge it's inserted implicitly as last element01:52
superstonedbut it merges not where 'merge' is put???01:52
mornfallsuperstoned: it wants to merge location bar of the kpart with location bar of konq01:52
mornfallsuperstoned: and main with main01:52
mornfallsuperstoned: since location bar of part is empty, the merge result is konq bar alone01:53
superstonedso i can't get the zoom and other stuff in the location toolbar, and i can't get the dirfilter in the main toolbar01:53
superstonedby design01:53
mornfallsuperstoned: about right01:53
superstoned(btw i'm going for some time, have a walk with girlfriend)01:53
superstonedso see u alter01:53
superstoned later01:53
superstonedand thanx for info01:53
Tonio_Riddell: let me find the topic01:53
superstonedits finaly clear, i can stop trying what is impossible :D01:53
superstonedthanx mornfall!01:54
superstonedhi riddell :D01:54
Tonio_I guy has updated networkmanager with all canonical patches01:54
superstonedbye all (see u in some time)01:54
Tonio_Riddell: if uvf exception can apply, as mark talked about, we have an oportunity to test knetworkmanager :)01:54
Tonio_Riddell: we now have time for this ;)01:54
RiddellTonio_: is this new network manager going into ubuntu?01:55
Tonio_Riddell: don't know if it'll go01:56
Tonio_but mark talked about that, if community was working on this, that could be okay ;)01:56
Tonio_Riddell: it is the 0.6.1 latest stable version01:56
Tonio_knetworkmanager works nicelly here ;)01:56
HobbseeTonio_: i couldnt get it to make :(01:56
Tonio_Riddell: just booting my laptop and find the link in my konversation history ;)01:57
Tonio_Hobbsee: knetworkmanager or networkmanager ?01:57
Tonio_there are packages for networkmanager 0.6.101:57
Tonio_ah ?01:57
Tonio_let me show you, just a minute01:57
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Riddellso nobody's packaged knetworkmanager yet?  what's up with you people!  :)01:58
HobbseeRiddell: i was going to, but i couldnt get it to make!01:59
Hobbseeand then i had to go to work01:59
Tonio_Riddell: I will ;)01:59
mornfallhmm networkmanager01:59
Tonio_today if you want ;)01:59
tomaRiddell: i have the first patch for kde 3.5.2, does that count?01:59
Riddelltoma: 3.5.2 which isn't even on ktown yet?  that's impressive02:00
HobbseeTonio_: yes please :D02:00
tomaRiddell: it is tagged02:01
Tonio_look at that02:01
Tonio_this is a screenshot from lure02:01
RiddellI think eI %hu02:01
Riddellaveryh4e 7kmnt/02:01
Riddellhave to go now02:01
Tonio_Riddell: interesting to say the least no ?02:01
Riddellyes, very interesting02:01
RiddellI'm fiejn mpl02:01
RiddellI'm being called alas02:02
Tonio_Riddell: I will (if that works) come with a knetworkmanager package toonight, and then we will see ;)02:03
tomaraphink: are you going to pack kdelibs 3.5.2 when its available?02:05
raphinko_O good question02:06
raphinkI could try with some help I guess02:06
tomahmm.. that is not what i meant ;-)02:07
raphinkwhat did you mean?02:07
tomawith who did i discuss http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118924  02:07
raphinkthat was me toma02:08
tomaraphink: ah, thought so. 02:08
raphinkhehe ;)02:08
raphinktoma: Riddell usually packages kde when it's out02:09
tomaraphink: i have the patch for #14 committed to svn now02:09
raphinkgood :)02:09
tomaraphink: but tagging happened yesterday02:09
raphinkwhen is 3.5.2 to be out?02:10
raphinkthis week ?02:10
tomaprobably they are doing some compile tests now, make it available for distributions and then announce it, so probably a week or so02:10
raphinkdo you think it's going to be more stable than 3.5.1 ?02:11
=== Hobbsee hopes so
sebasUsually a week from tagging, yes.02:12
mornfalloh no02:12
tomawell, . releases are bug fix releases, so yes.02:12
raphinkwell 3.5.1 was supposed to be a bug fix, too02:13
mornfallwhen people learn that UVF is there for a reason02:13
raphinkmornfall: I'm not for 3.5.2 integration in Dapper02:14
raphinkbut I'm preparing to it in case it happens02:14
mornfalleveryone remember how it ended up like the last time?02:15
raphinkbut that's because 3.4.3 was put in just before release02:15
raphinkof course I don't want it to be like it went last time02:15
mornfallwell, every time you bump kde to a new (even minor) release, you are throwing huge amount of testing out of the windowm02:16
raphinkthat's right02:16
raphinkthere's never a _real_ bug fix version02:17
raphinkwhich is sad02:17
mornfallwell, most projects have a policy to only fix grave bugs in the later stages of freeze02:17
raphinkwhen you see that new versions of gnome can be integrated pretty safely02:17
mornfallraphink: it will never be safe if people keep thinking that shoving some *completely unsupported* optimization patches into release in middle of freeze is a good idea02:18
raphinkI agree02:18
=== Hobbsee would only want that in a separate repo for testing, not in main release
tomai think it is impressive enough to use 3.5.2 02:19
raphinktoma: we don't want something impressive, we want something that works02:19
mornfallexactly what i say02:19
mornfallyou *sooo* prove my point02:20
raphinktoma: look at this for example :02:20
raphinkImprove rendering speed of some semi-transparent pixmap backgrounds. (Part of bug #114938)02:20
raphinkImprove performance of JavaScript error logging widget, to help deal with sites with completely broken JavaScript which continuously causes errors. (bug 117834)02:20
raphinkthese close wishes not realy bugs02:20
raphink"Improve" is not a word I'd use for bug fixing02:20
raphinkthese are new features, thus possibly new bugs02:20
tomaraphink: well, there is a weird situation for kde at the moment. 02:21
raphinksince 3.4.2 actually02:21
Hobbseethen again, the ratio of bugs that are fixed : bugs that may be in the new features is worht looking at...02:21
mornfallraphink: it is not hard to go and pick the most important fixes from branch and patch kubuntu's 3.5.102:21
raphinkthere has been no _stable_ release02:21
mornfallraphink: but we totally lack manpower02:21
raphinkeach new release has more bugs than the previous02:21
tomanew features can not go in kde 3.5 officially, but they are there. So they have to go into kde 4, which is a long way out02:21
mornfallHobbsee: no02:22
raphinkmornfall: we less and less lack manpower ;)02:22
mornfallHobbsee: that's wrong again02:22
raphinkwe have more and more MOTUs and we're now 3 Kubuntu core-devs02:22
tomaso to please users, tiny features are sneeked in. 02:22
Hobbseemornfall: it is?  *warning, i'm not that far awake*02:22
mornfallHobbsee: the point being that bugs that you know about are much less severe than those that will appear out of thin air02:22
Hobbseegood point02:22
tomai dont blame them. the list of bugs fixed is impressive for me02:22
raphinkwe fixed the most important ones in KDE 3.5.1 by patching it02:23
tomait would be a shame to ignore the bugfixes because some tiny features sneeked in.02:23
raphink3.5.1 is pretty stable in Kubuntu now02:23
raphinkafter months of work on it02:23
mornfallraphink: see? upgrade to 3.5.2 and throw that work out02:23
raphinkI would be in favor of packaging 3.5.2 on a separate repository02:24
raphinktest it actively for 2 weeks or so02:24
raphinkthen if it's stable enough, get it in02:24
Hobbsee+25 raphink 02:24
raphinkotherwise, keep it out02:24
mornfallthere's a big difference between fix any bugs and fix serious bugs only02:24
mornfallraphink: 2 weeks is very little for such a complex thing02:24
raphinkknowing that we still have about 3 months 02:24
raphinkok then 4 weeks ;)02:24
raphinkDapper release is in about 10 weeks02:25
mornfallraphink: that's almost reasonable02:25
raphinklast time the big mistake was to release 3.4.3 one (or two) weeks before release02:25
raphinkthis time 3.5.2 will be released about 9 weeks before release02:25
mornfallraphink: but note that since last adept beta i got nearly nil reports even if i know there are problems with it02:25
tomashipping 3.5.1 in 3 months will be food for nasty blogs02:25
raphinkthat gives us time to test it without putting it in02:25
mornfallraphink: so relying on external testing isn't going to work very well either02:26
Hobbseemornfall: to be fair, there was a whole lot of stuff raised on the kubuntu known problems wiki page02:26
Hobbseefor all the kde 3.5.1 beta1/beta2/rc1/rc202:27
raphinkI'm not sure of that toma02:27
mornfallfrom my experience, it's almost like -- people sit and wait thinking that "they will surely fix this, it's just beta", then when i release final everyone pops from nowhere with their favourite problem02:27
tomamornfall: yep, that is how it works02:28
raphinkwell right now we're supposed to be bugfixing 02:28
=== Hobbsee never bug tested like that
raphinkfor the next 3 months02:28
=== Hobbsee pretty much wrote about anything and everythign :D :P
Hobbseeand whined when she was inundated with windows, to Riddell!02:28
mornfalltoma: nasty blogs -- who gives a sh*t?02:29
tomaraphink: only 3 kubuntu-core-devels?02:29
Hobbseetoma: yeah, core-devs02:29
tomamornfall: i do, they are being read good you know02:29
raphinkbut \sh is not there currently02:29
raphinkso we're two02:29
raphinkwhich is the very reason why I appliied02:29
raphinkRiddell was the only active one for months02:29
raphinkand main is the very reason why I was taken in : we badly needed another core-dev02:30
mornfalltoma: if you need to ship latest and greatest to impress random bloggers, you may as well ship gentoo instead :)02:30
Hobbseemornfall: but those people will tell their friends02:30
tomamornfall: we are talking about a bugfix release, no new great features02:30
raphinkour point in Dapper is to have a very stable distro, not really the features released last week02:30
mornfalleh, eh02:31
Hobbseepersonally, i think this conversation is a little early - surely we should have a bit of a look at 3.5.2, and then discuss02:31
raphinktoma: that's what kde 3.5.1 was supposed to, yet it was not02:31
tomaraphink: ok, i'm here to help out a bit. 02:31
mornfallHobbsee: the mechanics work completely differently02:31
raphinks/to/to be/02:31
mornfallHobbsee: yes, they will tell, etc02:31
tomaraphink: so 3.5.0 was more stable then 3.5.102:32
mornfallHobbsee: random over-impressed people telling how ultra-super kubuntu is is only causing harm02:32
raphinkin a way there are big bugs that were in 3.5.1 and not in 3.502:32
mornfallHobbsee: never underestimate the power of disappointed users02:32
Hobbseeindeed.  separate repo.02:32
tomaraphink: just to get a feeling, can you name one?02:32
mornfalland, umm02:32
raphinkstatistics say disappointed users tell it to 11 times more people than happy ones02:32
Hobbseemost people will upgrade, some will whine, then they will reinstall and go back to the old ones02:32
tomait is interesting, cause that ruines the bugfix release idea02:33
mornfalldebian is slowest releasing distro on earth i guess02:33
mornfallguess what i have on all my machines02:33
raphinktoma: selecting keyboard layouts 02:33
raphinkI worked onthis one02:33
raphinkI had a look at the diff between 3.5.0 and 3.5.102:33
raphinkit was huge, for such a small applet02:33
raphinkwith obviously new features in02:33
mornfalland real users want first and foremost stability02:33
mornfallwho cares that it starts 1s faster if it crashes in 10 minutes02:34
raphinktoma: the biggest bugs had not been fixed, too02:34
raphinktoma: like the Kontact bugs for example, that I pinged you aboout02:34
mornfallwaiting for computer is bad, sure, but it's much worse when computer loses your work02:34
tomaraphink: no, developers are focussing more and more towards kde 402:34
raphinkshould have been fixed in 3.5.1 since they were so major02:34
raphinkyes I know toma02:34
raphinkwhich is why we're not so confident in 3.5.202:35
mornfall(crashing konqueror with dozen tabs you don't have bookmarked is a data loss in my book)02:35
raphinkbecause most developers are focused on 402:35
tomaraphink: i still think 3.5.2 is better then 3.5.1 ;-)02:35
raphinktoma: we can see that02:35
mornfalltoma: until you can prove it, your opinion is just that -- an opinion02:35
raphinktoma: as Hobbsee said and I totally agree with her, we should package 3.5.2 and test it apart02:35
raphinkfor some time02:35
raphinkto get sure it is safe02:35
mornfalltoma: by default, new release is always dangerous -- and whoever engineered the release process knew that02:36
Hobbseeseeing as that worked well with breezy for 3.5.002:36
mornfalltoma: they are not stupid, why do you think we have UVF? all the different freezes, etc02:36
Hobbseemornfall: coulda fooled me, with all the whining about nm 0.602:37
mornfallconfidence in software only raises over time and touching it removes lot of that confidence02:37
raphinkmornfall: well Ubuntu is going to have the new GNOME thoughy02:37
Hobbseeand that somehow getting into dapper02:37
tomamornfall: well, you always have to debate whats best for a release, whatever the rules are02:37
raphinksure toma02:37
mornfallwhat nm 0.602:37
raphinkbut then we have to debate on something we can see and test02:37
raphinkso we'll debate it when it's out when we can see how stable it is for real ;)02:38
mornfalltoma: but the rules aren't to be freely broken, they are there because they are the right thing 90% of time02:38
Hobbseemornfall: networkmanager 0.6 - there are many people in ubuntu whining about it, and how they need a GUI for wpa, so they need the UVF to be broken to get it in02:38
tomamornfall: of course.02:38
Hobbsee+1 raphink 02:38
mornfalltoma: i don't think breaking most of the rules every release is going to give you anything good02:38
tomamornfall: so if there is a uvf and 3.5.1 is bugfree in kubuntu, we should stick to it, but i'm confident 3.5.2 fixes bugs.02:39
mornfallunless we want to admit the rules are useless that is02:39
mornfalltoma: you miss the point02:39
mornfalltoma: with that argument, you don't need uvf at all, because almost any release fixes bugs02:39
mornfalltoma: and no software ever is bugfree02:39
mornfallhow is that called? logical fallacy :)02:40
tomamornfall: you indicated earlier that a lot of bugs are not reported by humans, they just work around the ug happily. I'm scared we now feel 3.5.1 is running stable, whiile in reallity this is not the case.02:40
mornfalltoma: 3.5.2 is not going to be any more stable, especially not since the rules are lax with it02:41
tomamornfall: people want to have the latest software, how many people upgrade to the latest and greatest kernel that is available. even without waiting for bugs. that is dangerous, they dont care.02:41
mornfalltoma: you can stabilise software like it was done with 3.5.1 -- by strict rules and only fixing really important issues, while minimizing risks02:42
mornfalltoma: i don't know many, to be honest?02:42
mornfalltoma: and most of those i know either run debian sid or gentoo02:42
mornfallor some homemade kludge :)02:43
mornfallhow many people you know will install dapper because they want latest and greatest? (as opposed to reliable platform)02:43
tomaat work or at home?02:43
tomathere is a huge difference in that02:44
raphinktoma: dapper is to be an enterprise release02:44
mornfallraphink: strike out that enterprise, it's a silly buzzword02:44
tomapeople at home want something new all the time, so they update almost every day i think02:45
mornfallbut everything hints on dapper aiming to be a stable system02:45
mornfalltoma: in that case they don't give a slightest damn about dapper02:45
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tomamornfall: why not?02:45
mornfalltoma: they will happily run development or if you point them at kde-latest repo they will run that02:45
mornfalltoma: why would they? it will be obsolete in a week02:46
mornfalltoma: releases are not for people who want latest and greatest02:46
tomamornfall: no, they want the latest and greatest stable, not experimental02:46
mornfalltoma: by doing a release for those people, you compromise the purpose of release02:46
mornfalltoma: latest and greatest stable is an oxymoron, sorry02:46
mornfalltoma: you simply can't have both, you always have to compromise on that02:47
tomaof course. 02:47
=== Hobbsee glazes out at all this debate - it's as bad as disecting the kde 4 stuff, which only semi-exists yet
mornfalltoma: Hobbsee hmm?02:48
mornfalltoma: all in all, bumping to new upstream version compromises stability much more than you are willing to admit02:49
tomaHobbsee: bad? discussions like this? gosh. i've seen worse ones.02:49
Hobbseemornfall: if it's like rc1 was, then it's fine to go in, if it's something as buggy as beta2 was, then stay the hell away from it!02:49
Hobbseetoma: oh i know, i have as well02:49
tomamornfall: i can not judge that objectively, so i trust you on that. I'm just seeing the bugfixes of kde, which is only one side. 02:50
Hobbseemornfall: but it does seem a little weird to be discussing it before one can actually try it out02:50
mornfalltoma: the problem with bugfixes is, that you can almost surely count on introducing one or more bugs with each02:51
mornfalltoma: the resulting bugs will have various severities, more likely less severe than before02:51
mornfalltoma: but it's not impossible that you introduce a grave bug inadverently02:51
mornfalltoma: so the closer to release, the more sense it makes to only fix the most serious bugs02:51
mornfalltoma: since less bugfixes means less chances to introduce new (potentialy more serious) problems02:52
tomamornfall: the problem is that you can not judge that. ;-)02:52
mornfalltoma: and also it's easier to keep continuosly testing software if changes are few and far apart02:52
mornfalltoma: i can02:52
Hobbseenight all02:53
mornfallnight Hobbsee 02:53
tomayou do not know why a developer has gone in a totally new direction, maybe because a grave bug in some certain cases. Maybe that is combined with something that looks like a new feature, but it really solves a dozen.02:53
mornfalltoma: sorry, that only happens in fairytales02:54
tomaok, lets make it concrete then ;-)02:54
mornfalli have introduced not a single crasher like this :)02:54
tomasay kipi-plugins02:54
mornfallthat went unnoticed for weeks02:54
tomathere is a plugin which exports to html02:54
mornfallnot a single => more than one :)02:54
tomait has a dozen bugs currently02:54
mornfallwhich you know about02:54
tomathere is now a new plugin written02:55
mornfallwhich has a different set of bugs you don't know02:55
mornfalli fail to see how is that better :)02:55
tomawhat do you want to do? introduce the new one with unknown bugs or stick to the old one with a dozen known bugs?02:55
mornfallstick to the old one of course02:55
mornfallif you know the bugs, you also know they are not that dangerous02:55
tomaok, that is where we would disagree?02:55
mornfallof course, because i work for enterprise customers that can't risk unknown bugs hitting them out of nowhere02:56
mornfallif you know the bugs, you can live with them02:56
mornfallsingle bug you don't know can bite you very very bad02:56
tomawell, you know for sure that the bugs from the old version are fixed in the new one02:57
mornfallsurprize problems are worst of all02:57
mornfalltoma: that's a fairly bold assumption :)02:57
mornfalltoma: even if we assume that (which noone sane would), it's still not worth it02:58
tomahmm, that is what i meant earlier, with 'you can not judge' that...02:58
tomaok, we agree that we disagree ;-)02:58
mornfallthere are cases where you want to leave data corruption bugs alone02:59
mornfallbecause fixing them introduces unreasonable risks02:59
mornfallreal life (tm)02:59
tomathen you have to explain to me, why i regullary need unsatable packages with my customers to fix bugs.02:59
mornfallbecause you don't have resources to fix them properly and you instead hope the unstable packages will work better03:00
mornfallon the other hand, building a distribution on hope is a bit weak03:00
mornfallyou can afford to do that if you are a lone contractor working for few customers where you can go and fix eventual showstoppers yourself03:01
mornfallyou can count on the backups because you do them03:02
mornfallif a bug in installer wipes someones data, he will hate you even if you told him in boldface letters that he should backup first03:02
tomatrust me, i've been there. but i still assume a bugfix release fixes bugs and is better.03:04
mornfallbut that's an assumption, which equals to hope03:05
mornfallif microsoft gives you a bugfix release, would you trust it that it really is better?03:05
tomayes, and me being naive.03:05
mornfallexactly :)03:05
tomayou cant trust ms ever.03:05
mornfallunfortunately, if you want to run a successfull distro for users (as opposed to hackers) you can't afford being naive03:05
tomai hope kde has a better reputation03:06
mornfalltoma: why can you trust kde if you don't trust ms?03:06
mornfalltoma: kde better reputation? oh my03:06
tomamind the _hope_ there03:06
mornfallmicrosoft at least does some real testing on the fix before it gets out03:06
tomayou are being sceptical here03:07
mornfallkde does not even pretend to ship end-user product03:07
mornfallthat's the distribution's job03:07
tomawhow, are you on drugs?03:08
mornfallwhen was the last time your grandma compiled desktop from sources03:08
mornfalltoma: kde only ships sources03:08
tomawhat does that have to do with end-user support?03:08
mornfallhow is shipping usable product "support"?03:09
mornfallkde ships source tarballs03:09
mornfallthey of course make a reasonable effort to ensure they are free of serious bugs and polished etc03:10
tomalook at the bugs mailinglist, forums, and irc channels for user support03:10
mornfalli counted 3-4 fairly annoying bugs in 3.5.1 in the few days since fresh install -- many of which weren't present during alpha and beta stages03:12
mornfallso at least some of them were introduced by bugfixing03:12
tomawe are running in loops here03:13
mornfallpossibly :)(03:13
mornfall12% battery left, i should get power plug or go home03:14
tomathat means we should consider every kde release as a feature release03:14
mornfalltoma: no03:14
tomawell, there are twon conclusions:03:15
toma1) fixing bugs leads to new bugs03:15
mornfallfeature releases pose much bigger risks than bugfix releases03:15
toma2) features are sneaked in.03:15
mornfall"sneaked"? they are openly listed in changelog03:16
tomaand unknown bugs are more dangerous then known bugs.03:16
tomaso basically that means treating minor releases as major ones03:16
mornfalltoma: no, not really03:17
mornfalltoma: that only means that you shouldn't treat bugfix releases as safe03:18
mornfalltoma: if you are 2 days from freeze, it is usually safe to upgrade to new bugfix release03:18
mornfalltoma: it is pretty bad idea to do a major upgrade in same situation03:19
mornfalltoma: but rules become more strict as you approach release03:19
mornfalltoma: because the closer the release the less time you will have to deal with unexpected problems03:19
tomayes, we agree to that03:20
mornfallso what you can afford when you have 2 months to fix the resulting mess may be unfeasible if you have a week03:20
mornfalland the time to fix does not run till release date03:20
mornfallsome things can't be fixed without breaking other freezes and introducing further risks03:21
mornfallalso you have to count on your fix of unexpected problem to lead to other unexpected problems so you again need a time margin03:21
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tomaah well, i've said what i think, no need to repeast.03:23
mornfallconsidering we are in feature freeze, it is a bit late to upgrade to a new upstream version with new features03:23
tomano big features are allowed03:23
tomaand in general it will solve more bugs then it creates03:24
mornfallfeature freeze03:24
mornfallit has "bugfixes only" with bold letters03:25
mornfalland that holds for 3 weeks now03:25
tomaok, well that is easy for a small app, not for a big one.03:25
mornfallhow is it hard for a big app?03:26
mornfallthe rules are very simple03:26
tomano, scroll back to the kipi example03:26
mornfall10 minutes of battery :'/03:26
mornfalltoma: why03:26
mornfalltoma: it breaks rules03:26
mornfalltoma: very simple03:27
mornfallhow is it complicated03:27
mornfallnot to mention a single kipi plugin is a simple app not a big one03:27
tomawell, sometimes you rewrite things to solve those bugs, and that can mean you see it as a new feature.03:27
mornfallit is worse than new feature03:27
toma*sigh too*03:27
mornfallwhat can't be understood about bugfix only03:28
mornfallbugfix is not a rewrite03:28
mornfalleveryone will confirm that03:28
mornfallrewrite is not a bugfix either03:28
mornfallnotebook will hibernate itself in a minute03:28
tomaif the uvf means a patch with 100 bugfixes and 1 tiny feature is ignored, it is wrong.03:28
mornfalltoma: if rewrite is tiny feature, it is doomed either way03:29
tomain case of kde, i'm not sure how the balance is, you do appereantly.03:30
tomaand that is fine, i'm not a kubuntu core dev.03:31
sebasI think it only makes sense to judge that kind of stuff on a case-by-case basis, there are too many variables involved.03:31
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sebasno of eyeballs, component of the 'fix', impact on other code, severity of the bug ... 03:32
tomasebas: that means diectiong the 3.51->3,5,2 diff03:33
sebastoma: Uhm, no I meant whether a patch is "safe enough" N days prior to release.03:33
tomaok. 03:34
tomain any case this stresses the fact that a bugfix release, should only fix bugs, else distributions will not pick it up.03:35
tomas/fix bugs/fix major bugs/ even03:35
sebasThat also depends if distros have the time to test it.03:37
sebasUntil now, KDE's releases have been very close to Kubuntu's, that's certainly a problem.03:37
sebasBreezy for example shipped a two-day-old KDE version.03:38
sebasHaving too much offset OTOH removes the latest and greatest factor.03:38
tomai agree03:38
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superstonedso the points are: - kde 3.5.1 is well tested in kubuntu; and kde 3.5.2 might introduce new bugs. on the other hand, 3.5.2 will also fix bugs, and there are 9 weeks to test it.03:46
superstonedbig question is, will 3.5.2 introduce more bugs than it fixes... and esp, will these new bugs be 'big'. this is hard to know - its more a matter of opinion, after all.03:47
superstonedi think, as 3.5.2 is a bug fix release (with some very minor features and performance fixes), it is unlikely to introduce more bugs than it solves. also, the big ones will be found quickly and they can be dealt with i guess - there are 9 weeks left to do so.03:48
superstonedflight 6 can include it, so it'll get some testing.03:48
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superstonedhey, ppl, since last update, korganizer crashes. i removed my std.ics (standard calendar) and it works. so there is something in my calendar file that makes it crash... any idea what to do next?04:26
mornfallso flames are off now? :)04:30
Tonio_hum........ the given new network-manager package is ugly... ftbfs except with dpkg-buildpackage.......04:33
Tonio_I have to restart the package update from scratch04:34
Tonio_let's go ;)04:34
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FlosoftI think I found a bug in the Beta06:02
Flosoftkaffeine can't play DVD's anymore06:02
Flosoftbut with Xine it works06:03
crimsunhmm? I thought kaffeine-xine was the default.06:07
OculusAquilaeI think he means xine-ui06:08
Flosoftit looks like the /dev/hdd disapears after some seconds 06:09
Flosoftand xine-ui uses dvd:/06:09
OculusAquilaeI'll try that out06:12
Flosoftand in system:/media/ the DVD drive disappears ... I think that is the problem06:13
OculusAquilaehttp://kubuntu.pastebin.com/609251 -- do you see this message too?06:13
FlosoftI insert DVD ..06:14
FlosoftAutoplay Appears06:14
Flosoftit is shown in Media06:14
Flosoftin autoplay I click: Play DVD with Kaffeine06:14
Flosoftok ...06:14
Flosoftloading Kaffeine06:14
FlosoftKaffeine Appears ... DVD Drive in media disappears ...06:15
FlosoftKaffeine: Can't find source06:15
Flosoftsecond error message:06:15
FlosoftNo plugin found06:15
OculusAquilaeI get this too06:16
Flosoftsorry .. other one doesn't work :p06:17
OculusAquilaethat's because this autostart sends system:/media/dvd to kaffeine06:18
OculusAquilaei mean system:/media/hdc06:20
OculusAquilaeit should send /dev/hdc06:20
Flosoftor dvd:/06:20
Flosoftbecause that is what xine-ui opens ;)06:21
OculusAquilaeor /dev/dvd06:21
Flosoftyeah well ... it definetly needs fixing06:22
OculusAquilaeyou're right06:22
Flosoftbut why does the drive disappear in system:/media/ ?06:22
Flosoftso maybe it is better if kaffeine uses dvd:/06:23
Flosoftas xine-ui can stil run that without having it listed in xine-ui06:24
Flosofteh ... system:/media/06:24
Flosoftor never mind ... it reappears in system ...06:25
Flosoftwho is working on kaffeine here?06:25
OculusAquilaewould like to have documentation for that thing06:25
Flosoftas it worked in the previous versions06:26
OculusAquilaeat the moment I look at these .desktop files06:27
Flosoftis there a graphical client for .rar files?06:43
Flosoftcan ark extract them?06:43
OculusAquilaeif you have unrar installed06:43
OculusAquilaei think so06:44
OculusAquilaedon't know how to fix it06:46
OculusAquilaeexcept changing code of kaffeine, so that it changes the input to what it needs06:47
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klI'm new here07:49
OculusAquilaehi kl07:51
klI haven't been using IRC for years, so I'm a bit losy07:52
klWhat client do you recommend? ksirc is a bit hard07:52
OculusAquilaei use konversation07:53
OculusAquilaestandard in kubuntu07:53
klAnd I guess I should register my nick somewhere?07:53
OculusAquilaekl: right07:54
OculusAquilaetry to type "/msg NickServ help" for more info07:54
klOK I found it07:54
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klichotaOK, I've got nick07:59
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klichotaI have already spoke to riddell, I would like to contribute to Kubuntu07:59
klichotaI know C++, some Qt and a bit of Python08:00
klichotaSo, how is this organized? Do you have some meetings?08:00
OculusAquilaethere are meetings08:01
OculusAquilaelet me look for the wiki page08:01
klichotaI did some testing on Kubuntu flight 5 and I have a lot of issues to raise08:02
OculusAquilaehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings -- no new meeting planned08:02
klichotaDo you talk about issues here or should I submit bugs?08:02
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OculusAquilaeI think you should submit them08:03
OculusAquilaeperhaps you could wake some devs up if you ask here, but I don't know :)08:04
klichotaHow to wake them up?08:04
klichotaWhat is this bugbot?08:05
OculusAquilaeI mean only write it here and if somebody reads it it's possible that he starts to work on it :)08:05
Riddellhi klichota 08:05
klichotaHello :)08:05
klichotaOK, I guess I should start submitting bugs08:06
klichotaBut I 08:06
klichotaBut I'm not sure if it is useful for Espresso08:06
klichotaEspresso seems pre-alpha08:06
Riddellprobably not for espresso yet08:06
Riddellyes, it is08:06
klichotaI couldn't even make it install by wiping the whole hard drive08:06
klichotaOr any other partitioning option08:07
klichotaWhich one should work?08:07
Riddellprobably none yet08:07
klichotaOK :)08:07
Riddellhow far did you get?08:07
klichotaWell, it started partitioning, but then failed08:08
klichotaThe message was: Failed to create a filesystem08:08
klichotaYou can see it here: http://lichota.net/~krzysiek/kubuntu-bugs/epresso-failed-to-create-filesystem.png08:08
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Riddellyeah, that's about as far as I'd expect it to get08:09
Riddelltry again at the end of next week, hopefully I'll have worked on it some more :)08:09
klichotaIt also swapped my root partition and swap in custom partitioner. See fish://krzysiek@lichota.net/home/krzysiek/public_html/kubuntu-bugs/partition-manager-swaps-root-and-swap2.png08:10
Riddellso if you want to help, espresso would welcome it, but you'd need to wait for me merging it with kamion's branch08:11
klichotaCan you tell me how development workflow is set?08:11
klichotaDo you have some shared repository for code?08:11
klichotaWhat VCS do you have?08:11
RiddellI use bzr08:12
Riddella new distributed version control system from canonical08:12
klichotaIs it official and recommended?08:12
klichotaOK, I will learn it :)08:12
klichotaWhat other VCS does it resemble? CVS? git?08:13
Riddellit's designed to be easy to use for a CVS/SVN user08:13
Riddellbut it's distributed so it's still quite different08:13
klichotaSo there is no central repository?08:14
Riddellno, but kamion (colin watson) has the definitive respoitory that gets packaged and put in the archives08:14
klichotaSo you have your branch and periodically merge it with his?08:15
Riddellit's currently a bit out of date unfortunately08:15
klichotaSo I should do the same, i.e. create my own branch?08:15
Riddellyes, branch from mine 08:15
Riddellbzr branch http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/espresso/ubuntu/08:15
klichotaOK, what is the address?08:15
klichotaAny other tips how to set up workplace?08:16
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klichotaDo you do development and test on the same machine?08:16
klichotaI mean apart from espresso :)08:17
RiddellI test from a live CD onto a computer where I don't care about the hard disk08:17
klichotaSo you have a way to create live CD with your changes?08:18
klichotaI was trying to do it, but I got stuck08:18
klichotaI cannot find the script which creates live cd - livecd-rootfs08:18
klichotaI wrote to ubuntu-devel mailing list, but without answer08:18
Riddellno, but you can install stuff on a live CD easily08:18
klichotaBy mounting?08:19
klichotaDoes squashfs support writing?08:19
Riddelljust remember to rsync it off before you switch the computer off08:19
Riddellit does08:19
klichotaOK, cool08:19
klichotaThe instructions on wiki were about cloop, and it is really burdensome08:19
klichotaBTW. What is SCIM and why is it run in Kubuntu?08:21
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klichotaone more important question - do you do development on dapper or on breezy? I've heard bzr is only in dapper?08:23
Riddellon dapper08:24
Riddellyes, you'd need to use dapper08:24
OculusAquilaehm I used bzr with breezy some time ago08:24
klichotaAs for adept, is it still possible to do some improvements?08:25
klichotaFor example IMO adding repository sources should be simpler08:25
klichotaAnother "workplace" question: what packages should I install? Do you use PyQT/PyKDE?08:26
klichotaAFAIK it does not support KDE 3.5?08:27
klichotaThere is only snapshot08:27
Riddellklichota: mornfall is incharge of adept, but we're past feature freeze now so no new features (unless Mark Shuttleworth wants them)08:27
Riddellklichota: pykde works fine on kde 3.508:27
klichotaI thought rather of UI changes, not new features08:28
klichotaLike nicer dialog for specifying sources - with combos instead of deb/deb-src. Things like that08:29
klichotaAnd displaying in nicer way, users do not want to see text lines with "deb/deb-src"08:29
Riddella mockup would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure it's too late for dapper08:32
mornfallklichota: combos, how is that helpful?08:32
mornfalli think i had that and removed it08:32
mornfallwell, combos08:32
mornfalli had a combo for type, deb vs deb-src08:33
klichotaWell, I'm thinking something more intuitive than specifying repository line, as it is currently08:33
mornfallklichota: currently, it's cut and paste from somewhere08:34
klichotaLike: combo for deb/deb-src, then line for URL then components08:34
mornfallklichota: that's roughly what 90% users will do08:34
mornfallklichota: adding combo makes it impossible to paste08:34
klichotaMaybe you're right08:34
klichotaAnd is there any way to add source without this?08:35
mornfalli'm not sure to understand08:35
klichotaLike click on some link and it will launch Adept to add specific source?08:35
mornfallnot that i know of08:35
mornfalldefinitely not adept08:36
klichotaAll right, I guess after feature freeze it cannot be added08:36
klichotaI will think it over for dapper+108:36
mornfallyou could distribute files that contain some nice description and a sources.list line that could be presented by a helper app when clicked in konqueror08:37
klichotaI think I have enough to do for now: install dapper, learn bzr, learn creating debs and learn creating live cds :)08:37
klichotaYes, but such handler, as I understand, cannot be added after feature freeze?08:38
klichotaBTW. Is Klik supported in Kubuntu?08:38
klichotaI haven't seen it on live cd08:38
hungerklichota: that is a question for #kubuntu I think.08:40
hungerklichota: I don't know... but I do not see why it shouldn't work.08:40
klichotaWell, it will not work if it is not shipped with Kubuntu08:41
hungerklichota: apt-cache search does not find it.08:41
klichotaWhether specific app works or not is another question08:41
hungerklichota: It is a dirty hack anyway... I wouldn't want to support it.08:41
klichotaIt is not a dirty hack, I see it rather as smart hack08:42
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klichotaAnd for users it is a big advantage08:42
hungerklichota: It would be if there were unlimited loop devices.08:42
klichotaThey don't have to install apps, just run it from desktop08:42
klichotaAFAIK there are plans to port it to use FUSE08:43
hungerklichota: As it is it might work or not depending on what other users are doing on the system.08:43
klichotaFUSE solves this problem08:44
hungerklichota: Yeap.08:44
klichotaAnd I think that for single user desktop it is not a problem anyway08:44
hungerklichota: That might turn it into a clever hack:-)08:44
hungerklichota: Single user desktops can use apt basically as well.08:45
klichotaI think FUSE has many uses in desktop system, think mounting SMB/WebDAV shares for each user :)08:46
klichotaBut it is a future, for now we have to concentrate on dapper :)08:46
hungerklichota: If you do allow the user to install stuff... if not, then they shouldn't be allowed to use klick either.08:46
klichotaIMO it is easier to install apps using Klik than apt/Adept08:46
hungerklichota: see plan9 for a system with a really clever use of mounts:-)08:47
klichotaMaybe we should invent something to make "one click install" possible for Adept08:47
klichotaHaven't yet have chance to look at plan9 closer08:47
klichotaNot enough time :)08:47
klichotaAnd their announcement says not much more than "port of plan9 fs to Linux"08:48
klichotaWhich gives little idea WHY this FS is better than others08:48
hungerklichota: It isen't.08:49
hungerklichota: plan9 does the "everything as a file(system)" much more thouroughly than unix.08:49
klichotaOK, I will dig it when I have some time08:50
klichotaThanks for the tip :)08:50
klichotaI am leaving now to prepare my workplace and file some bugs :)08:50
hungerklichota: You do stuff like "mount the network stack of the firewall"...08:50
klichotaHm, does not sound sensible08:50
hungerklichota: And then you can use it just like the local one.08:50
klichotaNetwork stack?08:51
hungerklichota: Makes setting up VPNs and routing trivial in a network.08:51
klichotaHm, interesting08:51
mornfallklichota: that assumes people can find the app in klik format08:51
hungerklichota: yeap, definitly worth a look if you have time.08:52
klichotaNot much time yet, but I will :)08:52
=== hunger sighs. GCC is broken again:-(
klichotaThanks a lot, bye :)08:52
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Hobbseemorning all11:58
tomais it that late already ?11:59
Hobbseeyes, 10am11:59
tomait is just midnight here.12:00
Hobbseeyou could keep up with the time, you know :P12:02
tomayes I could, at least that means i dont have to get up at 8/9/10am my time anymore12:03

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