[12:13] <raphink> Lure: ok it works, so I'll upload
[12:14] <Lure> raphink: thanks
[12:20] <raphink> Lure: fix released
[12:20] <Lure> raphink: thanks
[12:24] <Lure> Just compiled & running knetworkmanager!
[12:25] <Lure> it looks way better than nm-applet
[12:34] <raphink> :)
[12:55] <Lure> Riddell, raphink, Tonio_: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6171/knetworkmanager5zz.png
[12:55] <Lure> everything is documented here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/KNetworkManager 
[12:56] <raphink> very nice Lure
[12:56] <Tonio_> wow
[12:56] <Lure> it just works!!!
[12:56] <Tonio_> Lure: very, very nice
[12:56] <Tonio_> ask mark now ;)
[12:57] <Lure> seen this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperCommunityLove
[12:57] <raphink> let's try ...
[12:57] <Lure> raphink: great, this is my next thing...
[12:58] <Lure> this is using sources from Mar 11, as the latest are not released yet
[12:59] <Lure> any candidate for packaging knetworkmanager - it will take me 5 days at least ;-)
[01:00] <Lure> would be good if we could just add it to this test repository: http://johan.kiviniemi.name/ubuntu/
[01:01] <Tonio_> Lure: assimuing we have more than two month
[01:01] <Tonio_> Lure: and remembering what sabdfl said lastest meeting
[01:01] <Tonio_> could be interesting to investigate a bit on that ;)
[01:02] <Tonio_> Lure: remember what he said about the fact that "if the community does the stuff for wpasupplicant and networkmanager blablabla.." !)
[01:02] <Tonio_> :)
[01:02] <Lure> yeah 
[01:03] <Lure> really, thanks to Johan Kiviniemi, who did forward-port all Ubuntu patches to 0.6.1
[01:03] <Tonio_> Lure: indeed
[01:03] <Lure> this will make it even easier to include, as there cannot be many valid reasons to reject UVF exception
[01:04] <Tonio_> Lure: I have to go sleep, but could be very interesting rediscuss that tomorrow don't you think ?
[01:04] <Tonio_> ;)
[01:04] <Lure> he even backported fixes to wpasupplicant in order not to require bump to unstable 0.5
[01:04] <Lure> yes, I have to go to bed also - I go for sailing regatta at 7:30 ;-)
[01:04] <Tonio_> Lure: amazing job I must say ;)
[01:05] <Tonio_> we have to talk that with riddell tomorrow, and see what about ;)
[01:05] <Lure> I just hope we can succeed also on powersave front
[01:05] <Tonio_> powersave is more complicated
[01:05] <Tonio_> because canonical have their own stiff concerning acpi etc...
[01:06] <Lure> I know. :-( I have switched to knetworkmanager as I was too tired of it... ;=)
[01:06] <Tonio_> although I also think kpowersave is a must have
[01:06] <Lure> Tonio_: but powersave 0.12 has hooks to support acpi-support (and suspend2)!
[01:06] <Tonio_> anyway, it might not be possible because is doesn't fit with canonical's plans
[01:06] <Lure> Sebas have tested it already, I just did not have time yet
[01:06] <Tonio_> duplicated stuff
[01:07] <Tonio_> when it is different with knetworkmanager, according to what mark said 3 days ago
[01:07] <Tonio_> ;)
[01:07] <Tonio_> have to go Lure, seya tomorrow
[01:07] <Lure> it looks like raphink is not getting back from powersave suspend ;-)
[01:07] <Tonio_> Lure: lol
[01:07] <Lure> sey tommorow evening.
[01:07] <Lure> good nite
[01:13] <Lure> raphink: survived powersave? ;-)
[01:18] <raphink> not really
[01:18] <Lure> ;-)
[01:18] <raphink> it's too experimental for ppc
[01:18] <raphink> to be used
[01:18] <raphink> suspend to ram doesn't work
[01:18] <raphink> suspend to disk can't be used either
[01:18] <raphink> and when I close the laptop it crashes everything
[01:18] <Lure> bad...
[01:18] <raphink> I have to force reboot
[01:19] <raphink> so no I don't want that really
[01:19] <raphink> ;)
[01:19] <Lure> Dapper+1 then
[01:19] <Lure> Hobbsee: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6171/knetworkmanager5zz.png
[01:19] <raphink> I agreee kpowersave looks much nicer thank klaptop
[01:20] <raphink> it has more options
[01:20] <raphink> and all
[01:20] <raphink> but klaptop has a very good point : it works ;)
[01:20] <Lure> raphink: when it does not crash ;-)
[01:20] <Hobbsee> Lure: NICE!!!!!!
[01:20] <raphink> klaptop never crashed on me
[01:20] <Hobbsee> want to make some packages for the rest of us???  *displays puppy dog eyes*
[01:20] <Lure> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/KNetworkManager 
[01:21] <Lure> I am new to packages, but if you can do them it would be great for getting more testers
[01:21] <Lure> and I have to go to bet *now* as I have to go to sailing regatta in 6 hours...
[01:21] <Lure> ;-)
[01:21] <Hobbsee> hehe!
[01:22] <Hobbsee> ok, will look into it
[01:22] <Lure> ok, good nite
[01:44] <nlindblad> sailing...?
[01:46] <raphink> how nice :)
[01:46] <raphink> ++
[01:52] <nlindblad> okey
[01:52] <nlindblad> I'll dream about a girl then
[01:52] <nlindblad> not a stupid boat :(
[02:05] <Hobbsee> how does one apply a patch?
[02:05] <Lathiat> patch -Np1 < patch-filename
[02:05] <Lathiat> often
[02:06] <Hobbsee> Lathiat: thanks :)
[02:10] <Hobbsee> argh.  why do i always get an error in the make file?
[02:43] <Parkotron> If someone were to write a quality kcontrol module for XScreensaver, would Kubuntu consider switching away from KScreensaver?
[03:20] <Lathiat> why would you want to do that? :)
[03:20] <Lathiat> kss rocks :)
[03:36] <Hobbsee> kpowersave is very nice :)
[10:25] <Tonio_> hi
[10:52] <hunger> hi there.
[11:48] <freeflying-ibook> Riddell: ping 
[11:55] <nlindblad> iBook *jealous*
[11:59] <Riddell> freeflying-ibook: hi
[11:59] <freeflying-ibook> Riddell: I've solved the skim's issue
[12:05] <Riddell> freeflying-ibook: ooh?
[12:06] <freeflying-ibook> Riddell: I nned wait l10n guys solce the input method stuff
[12:06] <freeflying-ibook> s/solce/solve
[12:07] <nlindblad> I hate to be a git, but Adept and other programs starting through KDE-su doesn't follow the localization
[12:07] <nlindblad> *don't
[12:21] <Riddell> freeflying-ibook: great, let me know when there's something I should review
[12:21] <Riddell> nlindblad: even through the k-menu?
[12:22] <nlindblad> Riddell: hang on
[12:23] <nlindblad> the title of KDE-su is in Swedish, but the rest of the dialogue-box is in English
[12:23] <nlindblad> after I've entered my password I get Adept, in English
[12:30] <Riddell> adept doesn't have swedish translations as far as I know
[12:36] <nlindblad> Riddell: there's an adept.po in the SVN trunk
[12:39] <nlindblad> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n/sv/messages/playground-sysadmin/?rev=519933
[12:40] <superstoned> 2 questions, 1 about adept, other about the KDE performance patches -
[12:41] <superstoned> i seem to have changed something in kdm's config, now adept was unable to apply changes to the kdm package
[12:41] <superstoned> why not pop up the qt-frontend for dpkg-configure and ask the user?
[12:41] <superstoned> or auto-overwrite (or not)?
[12:42] <superstoned> second, are the patches for KDE startup as fast as XFCE applied to KDE in kubuntu? http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/280
[12:43] <mornfall> superstoned: why not pop up what -- well, why not -- because you don't have libqt-perl installed
[12:43] <superstoned> aaah
[12:43] <mornfall> superstoned: it's recommended by adept
[12:44] <superstoned> that's not default in kubuntu?
[12:44] <mornfall> superstoned: you'd need to harass someone to add it to kubuntu-desktop
[12:44] <superstoned> that person would be jonathan riddell i guess???
[12:45] <superstoned> ATM adept stops kind'a working, so this really is an issue i think...
[12:45] <mornfall> superstoned: just hit details
[12:46] <superstoned> that way it asks the question?
[12:46] <superstoned> (already fixed it from commandline so i can't test it anymore)
[12:46] <superstoned> sorry for bothering, than, its not that serious i guess...
[12:46] <mornfall> superstoned: it shows debconf in the embedded konsole
[12:47] <superstoned> yeah, seen that. but one has to re-start the installation, as the textscreen would just be some 6 characters wide... that's weird
[12:47] <mornfall> superstoned: that's why i tried to resist the "hide konsole by default" thing
[12:47] <superstoned> hmmm
[12:47] <superstoned> you can't fix it another way?
[12:48] <mornfall> superstoned: patches welcome -- however post-dapper
[12:48] <mornfall> feature freeze :)
[12:48] <superstoned> wish i could help haha
[12:48] <superstoned> hmmm
[12:48] <superstoned> and...
[12:48] <superstoned> libqt-perl would be a better solution, then...
[12:48] <superstoned> cheat, and add is as a dependency ;-) LOL
[12:48] <superstoned> yeah you can't do that
[12:48] <mornfall> well
[12:48] <mornfall> if you come with a clever way how to detect waiting-for-input in konsole
[12:49] <mornfall> i may consider breaching feature-freeze
[12:49] <mornfall> if it's very solid looking patch
[12:49] <superstoned> sorry, i have no way to do that. i wouldn't even know who to ask for it ;-)
[12:49] <superstoned> anyway at least there is a solution. maybe riddell can add it if there is space left on the cd
[12:50] <mornfall> superstoned: well, harass Riddell :)
[12:50] <superstoned> yeah
[12:50] <mornfall> superstoned: however note that this will only work if dapper still uses debconf (the perl version)
[12:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: hi ! fine ?
[12:50] <superstoned> we've been using his name now for some time, maybe he notices and can add it if there is space left.
[12:50] <mornfall> superstoned: there's no qt frontend to the new cdebconf
[12:50] <superstoned> hmmmm
[12:50] <superstoned> sucks
[12:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: have you seen the job done on networkmanager and knetworkmanager by the community ?
[12:51] <superstoned> only gtk, i guess, with lots and lots of dependencies ;-)
[12:51] <Tonio_> they apparently were awared of what mark said in the meeting, and wow, that rocks :)
[12:51] <Tonio_> I'm currently testing knetworkmanager, and that really rocks
[12:51] <superstoned> sh*t just crashed adept again, i got to remember not to ask for details when i started it from the Kmenu...
[12:52] <Tonio_> seaLne: ?? ^^
[12:52] <seaLne> :)
[12:52] <mornfall> superstoned: hmm, it only happens when started from kmenu right?
[12:52] <superstoned> yep
[12:52] <mornfall> damn kdesu
[12:52] <Tonio_> mornfall: any problem ?
[12:53] <Tonio_> works nicely for me
[12:53] <superstoned> 'sudo adept' works fine, yeah
[12:53] <Tonio_> except adept is looooooooooooooong to start
[12:53] <Tonio_> about 10 seconds on my computer actually
[12:54] <superstoned> yeah, it's kind'a slow. but after a few times (warm caches) it gets faster...
[12:54] <superstoned> and when running, its much faster compared to synaptic
[12:54] <superstoned> still think that's cool :D
[12:54] <Tonio_> superstoned: yes, when launched, it is really optimized
[12:54] <Tonio_> way respondive than synaptic
[12:55] <superstoned> mornfall: is adept supposed to remeber the state of the filters? i always remove the 'tag' filter, but it gets back at me ;-)
[12:55] <mornfall> superstoned: no, there's no state :'/
[12:55] <superstoned> sucky
[12:56] <superstoned> i'd say get rid of the tag filters by default - but its your call ;-)
[12:57] <mornfall> superstoned: well, if it's hidden people won't use it
[12:57] <superstoned> true, true. well i never needed it, but i guess others might ;-)
[12:58] <superstoned> and i wouldn't know a way to do the searching easier than this. the tags have their pro's and con's, that's sure
[12:58] <mornfall> superstoned: if it's around people at least have chance to start using it which in turn will lead to improvements in tagging :)
[12:59] <superstoned> you're right, yeah. and, well, as i was trying to say (but didn't make very clear :D) - the synaptic solution isn't much better, usabillity-wise, while not as flexible anyway. i think you did a great job on it.
[12:59] <mornfall> superstoned: cons being mostly work with tagging that many packages
[12:59] <mornfall> superstoned: and the fact that ubuntu completely ignores it
[12:59] <mornfall> kubuntu too
[01:00] <mornfall> so it's all on debian and my hope that it doesn't get too out of sync
[01:01] <superstoned> well, lets hope you'r work gets appreciated enough to make them (k/x/ed-ubuntu) start using the tags
[01:03] <mornfall> superstoned: could you possibly file a wishlist about remembering the states? possibly in bugs.kde.org -- thanks :)
[01:03] <superstoned> btw you (nor anyone else here, Tonio_ or seaLne  or whoever is reading this) don't happen to know about the performance patches? having Kubuntu start much faster compared to ubuntu would be cool... finaly being able to say KDE is DEFINATELY faster is nice.
[01:03] <mornfall> superstoned: (that way there's real chance i don't forget it)
[01:03] <superstoned> i can, yes, mornfall
[01:04] <sebas> Which performance patches?
[01:04] <superstoned> btw who did fix that dir-filter stuff? it works cool now (a dir filter in local browsing, google search online)
[01:04] <superstoned> patches from lubos lunak.
[01:04] <superstoned> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/280
[01:04] <superstoned> (scroll a bit down)
[01:04] <sebas> Ooow.
[01:04] <superstoned> esp this one
[01:04] <superstoned> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1663
[01:04] <sebas> That's fontconfig, right?
[01:04] <superstoned> mostly, yes. but KDE needs to be patched to use it
[01:04] <sebas> Hm, I don't have a dirfilter thing in konqi.
[01:04] <superstoned> remove the konqi config
[01:05] <superstoned> so you'll get the default again
[01:05] <sebas> That's "ouch" IMO.
[01:05] <superstoned> of course after upgrading ;-)
[01:05] <superstoned> ???
[01:05] <sebas> I'm up to date as of 2 hours ago.
[01:05] <superstoned> haha
[01:05] <superstoned> lol
[01:05] <superstoned> me 5 min :D
[01:05] <superstoned> anyway
[01:06] <superstoned> it is in ~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror
[01:06] <superstoned> not sure if you have to delete the profiles and/or the rc files, so get'em all, then killall konqueror and start konqi.
[01:06] <superstoned> enjoy :D
[01:07] <toma> superstoned: it is safer to wait untill lubos put those in kdesvn
[01:07] <toma> superstoned: the patches are experimental imho
[01:08] <superstoned> well, i've tried them on gentoo, and most are quite safe anyway. i think he didn't apply them because of the 3.5 feature freeze?!?!
[01:08] <superstoned> not sure how usefull the are for KDE 4 anyway, at least not all of them will be needed, if any at all.
[01:09] <superstoned> yeah, hobbsee, the patches are really seriously fast
[01:09] <superstoned> from 15 to 5 sec (warm caches).
[01:09] <Hobbsee> wow!
[01:09] <superstoned> that beats gnome with 10 sec :D
[01:09] <toma> if they were safe, he would have comitted them
[01:09] <superstoned> mind if i send him an email?
[01:10] <toma> superstoned: we are living in a free world ;)
[01:10] <superstoned> great :D
[01:10] <sebas> Hm, really no dirfilter here.
[01:11] <toma> kpersonaliser starts here at every boot
[01:12] <Hobbsee> toma: is it from a previous session, and then gets saved?
[01:12] <toma> no, if i reboot it is there again
[01:13] <sebas> superstoned: How's that supposed to look like?
[01:14] <toma> Hobbsee: nm, $PATH is playing tricks here
[01:14] <superstoned> if you are in webbrowsing, on left of the locationbar you have the google search. now do ctrl-home and you'll see the google searchbar replaced with a filterbar.
[01:14] <superstoned> enter something, it'll filter the current directory's content
[01:15] <sebas> ctrl+home goes to ~ here.
[01:16] <sebas> But I've 2 google bars in webbrowsing mode :/
[01:16] <sebas> (That's with ~/.kde moved out of the way.
[01:22] <superstoned> aaah
[01:22] <superstoned> sebas, you can fix this: rmb on the toolbar, change toolbar
[01:22] <superstoned> go too searchbar and empty it
[01:23] <superstoned> now the second google bar is gone, and it should work fine.
[01:24] <superstoned> btw toma i send a mail to lubas and mornfall i'm filing the adept question (save state) in bugs.kde.org
[01:25] <mornfall> superstoned: ok, thx
[01:27] <tvo> sebas: huh, that shouldn't be possible... one google bar is turned off in kubuntu-default-settings
[01:28] <superstoned> tvo well, i had to do what i told sebas to do...
[01:28] <toma> tvo: i had similar, my guess is that people upgrading having the same issue
[01:29] <toma> s/having/have
[01:30] <superstoned> tvo: just removed the stuff, again - and now i have only one bar. ?!?!? seems this is fixed in the last 2 hours, OR the problem is not in ~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror/*.rc or profiles/*
[01:31] <tvo> well, I realised it will probably be a problem for users upgrading, was planning to test that this weekend
[01:31] <tvo> I suppose the googlebar (and maybe searchbar too) should be mutually exclusive
[01:32] <tvo> where googlebar takes precedence if they're both enabled (what would happen when upgrading)
[01:32] <sebas> tvo: Hmmmm
[01:34] <superstoned> tvo: been able to get all this into the main toolbar, so we can have zoom in/out in webbrowsing, view choice in filebrowsing and stuff like that?
[01:35] <tvo> superstoned: the kubuntu-default-settings upgrade was approx. a week ago, so unless you didn't upgrade or didn't rm -f ~/.kde/share/config/konquerorrc it shouldn't have happened :s
[01:35] <tvo> superstoned: didn't try that again
[01:36] <superstoned> tvo: i just tried it, i didn't get two bars, so it works for me (TM). but its weird it didn't for sebas.
[01:36] <superstoned> tvo: any idea how i could get these dynamics into the locationbar?
[01:36] <tvo> the plugin search/google bars you mean?
[01:37] <superstoned> no, no, the views in local browsing mode
[01:38] <superstoned> tree, icon, picture...
[01:39] <superstoned> something i used to show off to ppl: yeah, KDE can do this (gwennview, file size view, combined with some splitting it gets impressive and busy soon :D)
[01:40] <mornfall> could someone rid #kubuntu of the pleasure that's called NoName?
[01:41] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: ping Hobbsee
[01:41] <mornfall> danke schn :-)
[01:42] <Hobbsee> mornfall: not  problem :)
[01:42] <Hobbsee> *not a problem
[01:42] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: seems you have op :)
[01:42] <mornfall> freeflying-ibook: where?
[01:42] <Hobbsee> i'd banned before, but it looked like it was just an incompetent user.
[01:42] <freeflying-ibook> mornfall: oh, no ,you haven't 
[01:42] <tvo> superstoned: hm, I don't really follow you... you don't mean putting stuff in main toolbar so that the tabs stop moving up and down?
[01:43] <tvo> anyway, I don't really know code responsible for that, so I doubt I can help you with it anyway
[01:44] <superstoned> no, no. when we had the 'traditional' toolbar, it had dynamic stuff. when in filebrowsing, it showed some view options (zoom, other stuff). now that's gone, as this can ONLY be shown in the main toolbar, not in the location bar. so i wondered if i/you could get it in there, as the view things are usefull imho.
[01:45] <mornfall> *blink* what?
[01:45] <mornfall> superstoned: you can put location bar into main toolbar
[01:45] <mornfall> superstoned: i have it that way
[01:45] <tvo> superstoned: ah ok, and the main toolbar was hidden by default, right?
[01:45] <mornfall> superstoned: it also works the dynamic way (location bar shrinks to the right here)
[01:45] <superstoned> yeah, i know. but you can't have the dirfilter in there, too :D
[01:46] <mornfall> superstoned: i'm not sure to understand
[01:46] <mornfall> superstoned: you can add actionlists to toolbar -- just need vi konqueror.rc :-)
[01:46] <mornfall> merge as well
[01:46] <mornfall> but
[01:46] <mornfall> merge won't work in locationbar
[01:47] <mornfall> i don't know how the dirfilter is implemented in konq
[01:48] <mornfall> merge merges only same "kinds" of toolbars AFAIK
[01:51] <Riddell> superstoned: add what?
[01:51] <Riddell> Tonio_: no, where?
[01:52] <superstoned> yeah. i just moved <merge> to the location toolbar, but the zoom in/out still gets put in the main toolbar...
[01:52] <mornfall> superstoned: sure, that's how merge works
[01:52] <mornfall> superstoned: if there's no merge it's inserted implicitly as last element
[01:52] <superstoned> but it merges not where 'merge' is put???
[01:52] <mornfall> superstoned: it wants to merge location bar of the kpart with location bar of konq
[01:52] <mornfall> superstoned: and main with main
[01:53] <mornfall> superstoned: since location bar of part is empty, the merge result is konq bar alone
[01:53] <superstoned> so i can't get the zoom and other stuff in the location toolbar, and i can't get the dirfilter in the main toolbar
[01:53] <superstoned> by design
[01:53] <superstoned> ?
[01:53] <mornfall> superstoned: about right
[01:53] <superstoned> (btw i'm going for some time, have a walk with girlfriend)
[01:53] <superstoned> so see u alter
[01:53] <superstoned>  later
[01:53] <superstoned> and thanx for info
[01:53] <Tonio_> Riddell: let me find the topic
[01:53] <superstoned> its finaly clear, i can stop trying what is impossible :D
[01:54] <superstoned> thanx mornfall!
[01:54] <superstoned> hi riddell :D
[01:54] <Tonio_> I guy has updated networkmanager with all canonical patches
[01:54] <superstoned> bye all (see u in some time)
[01:54] <Tonio_> Riddell: if uvf exception can apply, as mark talked about, we have an oportunity to test knetworkmanager :)
[01:54] <Tonio_> Riddell: we now have time for this ;)
[01:55] <mornfall> erm
[01:55] <Riddell> Tonio_: is this new network manager going into ubuntu?
[01:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: don't know if it'll go
[01:56] <Tonio_> but mark talked about that, if community was working on this, that could be okay ;)
[01:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: it is the 0.6.1 latest stable version
[01:56] <Tonio_> knetworkmanager works nicelly here ;)
[01:56] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i couldnt get it to make :(
[01:57] <Tonio_> Riddell: just booting my laptop and find the link in my konversation history ;)
[01:57] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: knetworkmanager or networkmanager ?
[01:57] <Hobbsee> knetworkmanager
[01:57] <Tonio_> there are packages for networkmanager 0.6.1
[01:57] <Tonio_> ah ?
[01:57] <Tonio_> hum....
[01:57] <Tonio_> let me show you, just a minute
[01:58] <Riddell> so nobody's packaged knetworkmanager yet?  what's up with you people!  :)
[01:59] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i was going to, but i couldnt get it to make!
[01:59] <Hobbsee> and then i had to go to work
[01:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: I will ;)
[01:59] <mornfall> hmm networkmanager
[01:59] <Tonio_> today if you want ;)
[01:59] <toma> Riddell: i have the first patch for kde 3.5.2, does that count?
[02:00] <Riddell> toma: 3.5.2 which isn't even on ktown yet?  that's impressive
[02:00] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yes please :D
[02:01] <Tonio_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/KNetworkManager
[02:01] <toma> Riddell: it is tagged
[02:01] <Tonio_> look at that
[02:01] <Tonio_> http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6171/knetworkmanager5zz.png
[02:01] <Tonio_> this is a screenshot from lure
[02:01] <Riddell> dytg,yl,cf
[02:01] <Riddell> I think eI %hu
[02:01] <Riddell> averyh4e 7kmnt/
[02:01] <Riddell> have to go now
[02:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: interesting to say the least no ?
[02:01] <Riddell> yes, very interesting
[02:01] <Riddell> I'm fiejn mpl
[02:02] <Riddell> I'm being called alas
[02:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: I will (if that works) come with a knetworkmanager package toonight, and then we will see ;)
[02:05] <toma> raphink: are you going to pack kdelibs 3.5.2 when its available?
[02:06] <raphink> o_O good question
[02:06] <raphink> I could try with some help I guess
[02:06] <raphink> :)
[02:07] <toma> hmm.. that is not what i meant ;-)
[02:07] <raphink> what did you mean?
[02:07] <toma> with who did i discuss http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118924  
[02:08] <raphink> that was me toma
[02:08] <toma> raphink: ah, thought so. 
[02:08] <raphink> hehe ;)
[02:09] <raphink> toma: Riddell usually packages kde when it's out
[02:09] <toma> raphink: i have the patch for #14 committed to svn now
[02:09] <raphink> good :)
[02:09] <toma> raphink: but tagging happened yesterday
[02:09] <raphink> ah
[02:10] <raphink> when is 3.5.2 to be out?
[02:10] <raphink> this week ?
[02:10] <toma> probably they are doing some compile tests now, make it available for distributions and then announce it, so probably a week or so
[02:11] <raphink> ok
[02:11] <raphink> do you think it's going to be more stable than 3.5.1 ?
[02:12] <sebas> Usually a week from tagging, yes.
[02:12] <mornfall> oh no
[02:12] <toma> well, . releases are bug fix releases, so yes.
[02:13] <raphink> well 3.5.1 was supposed to be a bug fix, too
[02:13] <mornfall> see
[02:13] <mornfall> when people learn that UVF is there for a reason
[02:14] <raphink> mornfall: I'm not for 3.5.2 integration in Dapper
[02:14] <raphink> personally
[02:14] <raphink> but I'm preparing to it in case it happens
[02:15] <mornfall> well
[02:15] <mornfall> everyone remember how it ended up like the last time?
[02:15] <raphink> yes
[02:15] <raphink> but that's because 3.4.3 was put in just before release
[02:15] <raphink> of course I don't want it to be like it went last time
[02:16] <mornfall> well, every time you bump kde to a new (even minor) release, you are throwing huge amount of testing out of the windowm
[02:16] <mornfall> -m
[02:16] <raphink> ok
[02:16] <raphink> that's right
[02:17] <raphink> there's never a _real_ bug fix version
[02:17] <raphink> which is sad
[02:17] <mornfall> well, most projects have a policy to only fix grave bugs in the later stages of freeze
[02:17] <raphink> when you see that new versions of gnome can be integrated pretty safely
[02:18] <mornfall> raphink: it will never be safe if people keep thinking that shoving some *completely unsupported* optimization patches into release in middle of freeze is a good idea
[02:18] <raphink> yes
[02:18] <raphink> I agree
[02:19] <toma> http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_5_1to3_5_2.php
[02:19] <toma> i think it is impressive enough to use 3.5.2 
[02:19] <mornfall> see?
[02:19] <raphink> toma: we don't want something impressive, we want something that works
[02:19] <mornfall> exactly what i say
[02:20] <mornfall> you *sooo* prove my point
[02:20] <raphink> yep
[02:20] <raphink> toma: look at this for example :
[02:20] <raphink> Improve rendering speed of some semi-transparent pixmap backgrounds. (Part of bug #114938)
[02:20] <raphink> Improve performance of JavaScript error logging widget, to help deal with sites with completely broken JavaScript which continuously causes errors. (bug 117834)
[02:20] <raphink> these close wishes not realy bugs
[02:20] <raphink> "Improve" is not a word I'd use for bug fixing
[02:20] <raphink> these are new features, thus possibly new bugs
[02:21] <toma> raphink: well, there is a weird situation for kde at the moment. 
[02:21] <raphink> indeed
[02:21] <raphink> since 3.4.2 actually
[02:21] <Hobbsee> then again, the ratio of bugs that are fixed : bugs that may be in the new features is worht looking at...
[02:21] <mornfall> raphink: it is not hard to go and pick the most important fixes from branch and patch kubuntu's 3.5.1
[02:21] <raphink> there has been no _stable_ release
[02:21] <mornfall> raphink: but we totally lack manpower
[02:21] <raphink> each new release has more bugs than the previous
[02:21] <toma> new features can not go in kde 3.5 officially, but they are there. So they have to go into kde 4, which is a long way out
[02:22] <mornfall> Hobbsee: no
[02:22] <raphink> mornfall: we less and less lack manpower ;)
[02:22] <mornfall> Hobbsee: that's wrong again
[02:22] <raphink> we have more and more MOTUs and we're now 3 Kubuntu core-devs
[02:22] <toma> so to please users, tiny features are sneeked in. 
[02:22] <Hobbsee> mornfall: it is?  *warning, i'm not that far awake*
[02:22] <mornfall> Hobbsee: the point being that bugs that you know about are much less severe than those that will appear out of thin air
[02:22] <Hobbsee> good point
[02:22] <toma> i dont blame them. the list of bugs fixed is impressive for me
[02:23] <raphink> we fixed the most important ones in KDE 3.5.1 by patching it
[02:23] <toma> it would be a shame to ignore the bugfixes because some tiny features sneeked in.
[02:23] <raphink> 3.5.1 is pretty stable in Kubuntu now
[02:23] <raphink> after months of work on it
[02:23] <mornfall> raphink: see? upgrade to 3.5.2 and throw that work out
[02:23] <raphink> yes
[02:23] <raphink> actually
[02:24] <raphink> I would be in favor of packaging 3.5.2 on a separate repository
[02:24] <raphink> test it actively for 2 weeks or so
[02:24] <raphink> then if it's stable enough, get it in
[02:24] <Hobbsee> +25 raphink 
[02:24] <raphink> otherwise, keep it out
[02:24] <mornfall> there's a big difference between fix any bugs and fix serious bugs only
[02:24] <mornfall> raphink: 2 weeks is very little for such a complex thing
[02:24] <raphink> knowing that we still have about 3 months 
[02:24] <raphink> ok then 4 weeks ;)
[02:25] <raphink> Dapper release is in about 10 weeks
[02:25] <mornfall> raphink: that's almost reasonable
[02:25] <raphink> last time the big mistake was to release 3.4.3 one (or two) weeks before release
[02:25] <raphink> this time 3.5.2 will be released about 9 weeks before release
[02:25] <mornfall> raphink: but note that since last adept beta i got nearly nil reports even if i know there are problems with it
[02:25] <toma> shipping 3.5.1 in 3 months will be food for nasty blogs
[02:25] <raphink> that gives us time to test it without putting it in
[02:26] <mornfall> raphink: so relying on external testing isn't going to work very well either
[02:26] <raphink> hmmm
[02:26] <Hobbsee> mornfall: to be fair, there was a whole lot of stuff raised on the kubuntu known problems wiki page
[02:27] <Hobbsee> for all the kde 3.5.1 beta1/beta2/rc1/rc2
[02:27] <toma> 3.5.0
[02:27] <raphink> I'm not sure of that toma
[02:27] <mornfall> from my experience, it's almost like -- people sit and wait thinking that "they will surely fix this, it's just beta", then when i release final everyone pops from nowhere with their favourite problem
[02:28] <toma> mornfall: yep, that is how it works
[02:28] <raphink> well right now we're supposed to be bugfixing 
[02:28] <raphink> for the next 3 months
[02:28] <Hobbsee> and whined when she was inundated with windows, to Riddell!
[02:29] <mornfall> toma: nasty blogs -- who gives a sh*t?
[02:29] <toma> raphink: only 3 kubuntu-core-devels?
[02:29] <Hobbsee> toma: yeah, core-devs
[02:29] <raphink> theorically
[02:29] <toma> mornfall: i do, they are being read good you know
[02:29] <raphink> but \sh is not there currently
[02:29] <raphink> so we're two
[02:29] <raphink> which is the very reason why I appliied
[02:29] <raphink> Riddell was the only active one for months
[02:30] <raphink> and main is the very reason why I was taken in : we badly needed another core-dev
[02:30] <mornfall> toma: if you need to ship latest and greatest to impress random bloggers, you may as well ship gentoo instead :)
[02:30] <raphink> lol
[02:30] <raphink> yes
[02:30] <Hobbsee> mornfall: but those people will tell their friends
[02:30] <toma> mornfall: we are talking about a bugfix release, no new great features
[02:30] <raphink> our point in Dapper is to have a very stable distro, not really the features released last week
[02:31] <mornfall> eh, eh
[02:31] <Hobbsee> personally, i think this conversation is a little early - surely we should have a bit of a look at 3.5.2, and then discuss
[02:31] <raphink> toma: that's what kde 3.5.1 was supposed to, yet it was not
[02:31] <toma> raphink: ok, i'm here to help out a bit. 
[02:31] <mornfall> Hobbsee: the mechanics work completely differently
[02:31] <raphink> s/to/to be/
[02:31] <mornfall> Hobbsee: yes, they will tell, etc
[02:32] <toma> raphink: so 3.5.0 was more stable then 3.5.1
[02:32] <toma> ?
[02:32] <mornfall> Hobbsee: random over-impressed people telling how ultra-super kubuntu is is only causing harm
[02:32] <raphink> in a way there are big bugs that were in 3.5.1 and not in 3.5
[02:32] <Hobbsee> true
[02:32] <mornfall> Hobbsee: never underestimate the power of disappointed users
[02:32] <raphink> yes
[02:32] <Hobbsee> indeed.  separate repo.
[02:32] <toma> raphink: just to get a feeling, can you name one?
[02:32] <mornfall> and, umm
[02:32] <raphink> statistics say disappointed users tell it to 11 times more people than happy ones
[02:32] <Hobbsee> most people will upgrade, some will whine, then they will reinstall and go back to the old ones
[02:33] <toma> it is interesting, cause that ruines the bugfix release idea
[02:33] <mornfall> debian is slowest releasing distro on earth i guess
[02:33] <mornfall> guess what i have on all my machines
[02:33] <raphink> toma: selecting keyboard layouts 
[02:33] <raphink> I worked onthis one
[02:33] <raphink> I had a look at the diff between 3.5.0 and 3.5.1
[02:33] <raphink> it was huge, for such a small applet
[02:33] <raphink> with obviously new features in
[02:33] <mornfall> and real users want first and foremost stability
[02:34] <mornfall> who cares that it starts 1s faster if it crashes in 10 minutes
[02:34] <raphink> toma: the biggest bugs had not been fixed, too
[02:34] <raphink> toma: like the Kontact bugs for example, that I pinged you aboout
[02:34] <mornfall> waiting for computer is bad, sure, but it's much worse when computer loses your work
[02:34] <toma> raphink: no, developers are focussing more and more towards kde 4
[02:34] <raphink> should have been fixed in 3.5.1 since they were so major
[02:34] <raphink> yes I know toma
[02:35] <raphink> which is why we're not so confident in 3.5.2
[02:35] <mornfall> (crashing konqueror with dozen tabs you don't have bookmarked is a data loss in my book)
[02:35] <raphink> because most developers are focused on 4
[02:35] <toma> raphink: i still think 3.5.2 is better then 3.5.1 ;-)
[02:35] <raphink> toma: we can see that
[02:35] <mornfall> toma: until you can prove it, your opinion is just that -- an opinion
[02:35] <raphink> toma: as Hobbsee said and I totally agree with her, we should package 3.5.2 and test it apart
[02:35] <raphink> for some time
[02:35] <raphink> to get sure it is safe
[02:36] <mornfall> toma: by default, new release is always dangerous -- and whoever engineered the release process knew that
[02:36] <Hobbsee> seeing as that worked well with breezy for 3.5.0
[02:36] <mornfall> toma: they are not stupid, why do you think we have UVF? all the different freezes, etc
[02:37] <Hobbsee> mornfall: coulda fooled me, with all the whining about nm 0.6
[02:37] <mornfall> confidence in software only raises over time and touching it removes lot of that confidence
[02:37] <raphink> mornfall: well Ubuntu is going to have the new GNOME thoughy
[02:37] <raphink> though
[02:37] <Hobbsee> and that somehow getting into dapper
[02:37] <toma> mornfall: well, you always have to debate whats best for a release, whatever the rules are
[02:37] <raphink> sure toma
[02:37] <mornfall> what nm 0.6
[02:37] <raphink> but then we have to debate on something we can see and test
[02:38] <raphink> so we'll debate it when it's out when we can see how stable it is for real ;)
[02:38] <mornfall> toma: but the rules aren't to be freely broken, they are there because they are the right thing 90% of time
[02:38] <Hobbsee> mornfall: networkmanager 0.6 - there are many people in ubuntu whining about it, and how they need a GUI for wpa, so they need the UVF to be broken to get it in
[02:38] <toma> mornfall: of course.
[02:38] <Hobbsee> +1 raphink 
[02:38] <mornfall> toma: i don't think breaking most of the rules every release is going to give you anything good
[02:39] <toma> mornfall: so if there is a uvf and 3.5.1 is bugfree in kubuntu, we should stick to it, but i'm confident 3.5.2 fixes bugs.
[02:39] <mornfall> unless we want to admit the rules are useless that is
[02:39] <mornfall> toma: you miss the point
[02:39] <mornfall> toma: with that argument, you don't need uvf at all, because almost any release fixes bugs
[02:39] <mornfall> toma: and no software ever is bugfree
[02:40] <mornfall> how is that called? logical fallacy :)
[02:40] <toma> mornfall: you indicated earlier that a lot of bugs are not reported by humans, they just work around the ug happily. I'm scared we now feel 3.5.1 is running stable, whiile in reallity this is not the case.
[02:41] <mornfall> toma: 3.5.2 is not going to be any more stable, especially not since the rules are lax with it
[02:41] <toma> mornfall: people want to have the latest software, how many people upgrade to the latest and greatest kernel that is available. even without waiting for bugs. that is dangerous, they dont care.
[02:42] <mornfall> toma: you can stabilise software like it was done with 3.5.1 -- by strict rules and only fixing really important issues, while minimizing risks
[02:42] <mornfall> toma: i don't know many, to be honest?
[02:42] <mornfall> toma: and most of those i know either run debian sid or gentoo
[02:43] <mornfall> or some homemade kludge :)
[02:43] <mornfall> how many people you know will install dapper because they want latest and greatest? (as opposed to reliable platform)
[02:43] <toma> at work or at home?
[02:44] <mornfall> ?
[02:44] <toma> there is a huge difference in that
[02:44] <raphink> toma: dapper is to be an enterprise release
[02:44] <mornfall> raphink: strike out that enterprise, it's a silly buzzword
[02:44] <raphink> lol
[02:45] <toma> people at home want something new all the time, so they update almost every day i think
[02:45] <mornfall> but everything hints on dapper aiming to be a stable system
[02:45] <mornfall> toma: in that case they don't give a slightest damn about dapper
[02:45] <toma> mornfall: why not?
[02:45] <mornfall> toma: they will happily run development or if you point them at kde-latest repo they will run that
[02:46] <mornfall> toma: why would they? it will be obsolete in a week
[02:46] <mornfall> toma: releases are not for people who want latest and greatest
[02:46] <toma> mornfall: no, they want the latest and greatest stable, not experimental
[02:46] <mornfall> toma: by doing a release for those people, you compromise the purpose of release
[02:46] <mornfall> toma: latest and greatest stable is an oxymoron, sorry
[02:47] <mornfall> toma: you simply can't have both, you always have to compromise on that
[02:47] <toma> of course. 
[02:48] <mornfall> toma: Hobbsee hmm?
[02:48] <mornfall> err
[02:48] <mornfall> -toma
[02:49] <mornfall> toma: all in all, bumping to new upstream version compromises stability much more than you are willing to admit
[02:49] <toma> Hobbsee: bad? discussions like this? gosh. i've seen worse ones.
[02:49] <Hobbsee> mornfall: if it's like rc1 was, then it's fine to go in, if it's something as buggy as beta2 was, then stay the hell away from it!
[02:49] <Hobbsee> toma: oh i know, i have as well
[02:50] <toma> mornfall: i can not judge that objectively, so i trust you on that. I'm just seeing the bugfixes of kde, which is only one side. 
[02:50] <Hobbsee> mornfall: but it does seem a little weird to be discussing it before one can actually try it out
[02:51] <mornfall> toma: the problem with bugfixes is, that you can almost surely count on introducing one or more bugs with each
[02:51] <mornfall> toma: the resulting bugs will have various severities, more likely less severe than before
[02:51] <mornfall> toma: but it's not impossible that you introduce a grave bug inadverently
[02:51] <mornfall> toma: so the closer to release, the more sense it makes to only fix the most serious bugs
[02:52] <mornfall> toma: since less bugfixes means less chances to introduce new (potentialy more serious) problems
[02:52] <toma> mornfall: the problem is that you can not judge that. ;-)
[02:52] <mornfall> toma: and also it's easier to keep continuosly testing software if changes are few and far apart
[02:52] <mornfall> toma: i can
[02:53] <Hobbsee> night all
[02:53] <mornfall> night Hobbsee 
[02:53] <toma> you do not know why a developer has gone in a totally new direction, maybe because a grave bug in some certain cases. Maybe that is combined with something that looks like a new feature, but it really solves a dozen.
[02:54] <mornfall> toma: sorry, that only happens in fairytales
[02:54] <toma> ok, lets make it concrete then ;-)
[02:54] <mornfall> i have introduced not a single crasher like this :)
[02:54] <toma> say kipi-plugins
[02:54] <mornfall> that went unnoticed for weeks
[02:54] <toma> there is a plugin which exports to html
[02:54] <mornfall> not a single => more than one :)
[02:54] <toma> it has a dozen bugs currently
[02:54] <mornfall> which you know about
[02:55] <toma> there is now a new plugin written
[02:55] <mornfall> which has a different set of bugs you don't know
[02:55] <mornfall> i fail to see how is that better :)
[02:55] <toma> what do you want to do? introduce the new one with unknown bugs or stick to the old one with a dozen known bugs?
[02:55] <mornfall> stick to the old one of course
[02:55] <mornfall> if you know the bugs, you also know they are not that dangerous
[02:55] <toma> ok, that is where we would disagree?
[02:56] <toma> s/?/;-)/
[02:56] <mornfall> of course, because i work for enterprise customers that can't risk unknown bugs hitting them out of nowhere
[02:56] <mornfall> if you know the bugs, you can live with them
[02:56] <mornfall> single bug you don't know can bite you very very bad
[02:57] <toma> well, you know for sure that the bugs from the old version are fixed in the new one
[02:57] <mornfall> surprize problems are worst of all
[02:57] <mornfall> toma: that's a fairly bold assumption :)
[02:58] <mornfall> toma: even if we assume that (which noone sane would), it's still not worth it
[02:58] <toma> hmm, that is what i meant earlier, with 'you can not judge' that...
[02:58] <toma> ok, we agree that we disagree ;-)
[02:59] <mornfall> there are cases where you want to leave data corruption bugs alone
[02:59] <mornfall> because fixing them introduces unreasonable risks
[02:59] <mornfall> real life (tm)
[02:59] <toma> then you have to explain to me, why i regullary need unsatable packages with my customers to fix bugs.
[03:00] <mornfall> because you don't have resources to fix them properly and you instead hope the unstable packages will work better
[03:00] <toma> yep
[03:00] <mornfall> on the other hand, building a distribution on hope is a bit weak
[03:01] <toma> ;-)
[03:01] <mornfall> you can afford to do that if you are a lone contractor working for few customers where you can go and fix eventual showstoppers yourself
[03:02] <mornfall> you can count on the backups because you do them
[03:02] <mornfall> etc
[03:02] <mornfall> if a bug in installer wipes someones data, he will hate you even if you told him in boldface letters that he should backup first
[03:04] <toma> trust me, i've been there. but i still assume a bugfix release fixes bugs and is better.
[03:05] <mornfall> but that's an assumption, which equals to hope
[03:05] <mornfall> if microsoft gives you a bugfix release, would you trust it that it really is better?
[03:05] <toma> yes, and me being naive.
[03:05] <mornfall> exactly :)
[03:05] <toma> you cant trust ms ever.
[03:05] <mornfall> unfortunately, if you want to run a successfull distro for users (as opposed to hackers) you can't afford being naive
[03:06] <toma> i hope kde has a better reputation
[03:06] <mornfall> toma: why can you trust kde if you don't trust ms?
[03:06] <mornfall> toma: kde better reputation? oh my
[03:06] <toma> mind the _hope_ there
[03:06] <mornfall> microsoft at least does some real testing on the fix before it gets out
[03:07] <toma> you are being sceptical here
[03:07] <mornfall> kde does not even pretend to ship end-user product
[03:07] <mornfall> that's the distribution's job
[03:08] <toma> whow, are you on drugs?
[03:08] <mornfall> when was the last time your grandma compiled desktop from sources
[03:08] <mornfall> toma: kde only ships sources
[03:08] <toma> what does that have to do with end-user support?
[03:09] <mornfall> how is shipping usable product "support"?
[03:09] <mornfall> kde ships source tarballs
[03:10] <mornfall> they of course make a reasonable effort to ensure they are free of serious bugs and polished etc
[03:10] <toma> look at the bugs mailinglist, forums, and irc channels for user support
[03:10] <toma> +
[03:12] <mornfall> i counted 3-4 fairly annoying bugs in 3.5.1 in the few days since fresh install -- many of which weren't present during alpha and beta stages
[03:12] <mornfall> so at least some of them were introduced by bugfixing
[03:13] <toma> we are running in loops here
[03:13] <mornfall> possibly :)(
[03:14] <mornfall> 12% battery left, i should get power plug or go home
[03:14] <toma> that means we should consider every kde release as a feature release
[03:14] <mornfall> toma: no
[03:14] <mornfall> why
[03:15] <toma> well, there are twon conclusions:
[03:15] <toma> 1) fixing bugs leads to new bugs
[03:15] <mornfall> feature releases pose much bigger risks than bugfix releases
[03:15] <toma> 2) features are sneaked in.
[03:16] <mornfall> "sneaked"? they are openly listed in changelog
[03:16] <toma> and unknown bugs are more dangerous then known bugs.
[03:16] <mornfall> yes
[03:16] <toma> so basically that means treating minor releases as major ones
[03:17] <mornfall> toma: no, not really
[03:18] <mornfall> toma: that only means that you shouldn't treat bugfix releases as safe
[03:18] <mornfall> toma: if you are 2 days from freeze, it is usually safe to upgrade to new bugfix release
[03:19] <mornfall> toma: it is pretty bad idea to do a major upgrade in same situation
[03:19] <mornfall> toma: but rules become more strict as you approach release
[03:19] <mornfall> toma: because the closer the release the less time you will have to deal with unexpected problems
[03:20] <toma> yes, we agree to that
[03:20] <mornfall> so what you can afford when you have 2 months to fix the resulting mess may be unfeasible if you have a week
[03:20] <mornfall> and the time to fix does not run till release date
[03:21] <mornfall> some things can't be fixed without breaking other freezes and introducing further risks
[03:21] <mornfall> also you have to count on your fix of unexpected problem to lead to other unexpected problems so you again need a time margin
[03:21] <toma> grrr
[03:23] <toma> ah well, i've said what i think, no need to repeast.
[03:23] <mornfall> considering we are in feature freeze, it is a bit late to upgrade to a new upstream version with new features
[03:23] <toma> no big features are allowed
[03:24] <toma> and in general it will solve more bugs then it creates
[03:24] <mornfall> feature freeze
[03:24] <mornfall> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureFreeze
[03:25] <mornfall> it has "bugfixes only" with bold letters
[03:25] <mornfall> and that holds for 3 weeks now
[03:25] <toma> ok, well that is easy for a small app, not for a big one.
[03:26] <mornfall> how is it hard for a big app?
[03:26] <mornfall> the rules are very simple
[03:26] <toma> no, scroll back to the kipi example
[03:26] <mornfall> 10 minutes of battery :'/
[03:26] <mornfall> toma: why
[03:26] <mornfall> toma: it breaks rules
[03:27] <mornfall> toma: very simple
[03:27] <mornfall> how is it complicated
[03:27] <mornfall> not to mention a single kipi plugin is a simple app not a big one
[03:27] <toma> well, sometimes you rewrite things to solve those bugs, and that can mean you see it as a new feature.
[03:27] <mornfall> *sigh*
[03:27] <mornfall> it is worse than new feature
[03:27] <toma> *sigh too*
[03:28] <mornfall> what can't be understood about bugfix only
[03:28] <mornfall> bugfix is not a rewrite
[03:28] <mornfall> everyone will confirm that
[03:28] <mornfall> rewrite is not a bugfix either
[03:28] <mornfall> laters
[03:28] <mornfall> notebook will hibernate itself in a minute
[03:28] <toma> if the uvf means a patch with 100 bugfixes and 1 tiny feature is ignored, it is wrong.
[03:29] <mornfall> toma: if rewrite is tiny feature, it is doomed either way
[03:30] <toma> in case of kde, i'm not sure how the balance is, you do appereantly.
[03:31] <toma> and that is fine, i'm not a kubuntu core dev.
[03:31] <sebas> I think it only makes sense to judge that kind of stuff on a case-by-case basis, there are too many variables involved.
[03:32] <sebas> no of eyeballs, component of the 'fix', impact on other code, severity of the bug ... 
[03:33] <toma> sebas: that means diectiong the 3.51->3,5,2 diff
[03:33] <toma> disecting
[03:33] <sebas> toma: Uhm, no I meant whether a patch is "safe enough" N days prior to release.
[03:34] <toma> ok. 
[03:35] <toma> in any case this stresses the fact that a bugfix release, should only fix bugs, else distributions will not pick it up.
[03:35] <toma> s/fix bugs/fix major bugs/ even
[03:37] <sebas> That also depends if distros have the time to test it.
[03:37] <sebas> Until now, KDE's releases have been very close to Kubuntu's, that's certainly a problem.
[03:38] <sebas> Breezy for example shipped a two-day-old KDE version.
[03:38] <sebas> Having too much offset OTOH removes the latest and greatest factor.
[03:38] <toma> i agree
[03:46] <superstoned> so the points are: - kde 3.5.1 is well tested in kubuntu; and kde 3.5.2 might introduce new bugs. on the other hand, 3.5.2 will also fix bugs, and there are 9 weeks to test it.
[03:46] <superstoned> right?
[03:47] <superstoned> big question is, will 3.5.2 introduce more bugs than it fixes... and esp, will these new bugs be 'big'. this is hard to know - its more a matter of opinion, after all.
[03:48] <superstoned> i think, as 3.5.2 is a bug fix release (with some very minor features and performance fixes), it is unlikely to introduce more bugs than it solves. also, the big ones will be found quickly and they can be dealt with i guess - there are 9 weeks left to do so.
[03:48] <superstoned> flight 6 can include it, so it'll get some testing.
[04:26] <superstoned> hey, ppl, since last update, korganizer crashes. i removed my std.ics (standard calendar) and it works. so there is something in my calendar file that makes it crash... any idea what to do next?
[04:30] <mornfall> re
[04:30] <mornfall> so flames are off now? :)
[04:33] <Tonio_> hum........ the given new network-manager package is ugly... ftbfs except with dpkg-buildpackage.......
[04:34] <Tonio_> I have to restart the package update from scratch
[04:34] <Tonio_> let's go ;)
[06:02] <Flosoft> hey
[06:02] <Flosoft> I think I found a bug in the Beta
[06:02] <Flosoft> kaffeine can't play DVD's anymore
[06:03] <Flosoft> but with Xine it works
[06:07] <crimsun> hmm? I thought kaffeine-xine was the default.
[06:08] <OculusAquilae> I think he means xine-ui
[06:09] <Flosoft> yes
[06:09] <Flosoft> xine-ui
[06:09] <Flosoft> it looks like the /dev/hdd disapears after some seconds 
[06:09] <Flosoft> and xine-ui uses dvd:/
[06:12] <OculusAquilae> I'll try that out
[06:13] <Flosoft> and in system:/media/ the DVD drive disappears ... I think that is the problem
[06:13] <OculusAquilae> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/609251 -- do you see this message too?
[06:14] <Flosoft> I insert DVD ..
[06:14] <Flosoft> Autoplay Appears
[06:14] <Flosoft> it is shown in Media
[06:14] <Flosoft> in autoplay I click: Play DVD with Kaffeine
[06:14] <Flosoft> ok ...
[06:14] <Flosoft> loading Kaffeine
[06:15] <Flosoft> Kaffeine Appears ... DVD Drive in media disappears ...
[06:15] <Flosoft> Kaffeine: Can't find source
[06:15] <Flosoft> second error message:
[06:15] <Flosoft> No plugin found
[06:16] <OculusAquilae> I get this too
[06:16] <Flosoft> pastebin.com/609259
[06:17] <Flosoft> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/609256
[06:17] <Flosoft> sorry .. other one doesn't work :p
[06:18] <OculusAquilae> that's because this autostart sends system:/media/dvd to kaffeine
[06:20] <OculusAquilae> i mean system:/media/hdc
[06:20] <OculusAquilae> it should send /dev/hdc
[06:20] <Flosoft> yes
[06:20] <Flosoft> or dvd:/
[06:20] <Flosoft> ???
[06:21] <Flosoft> because that is what xine-ui opens ;)
[06:21] <OculusAquilae> or /dev/dvd
[06:22] <Flosoft> yeah well ... it definetly needs fixing
[06:22] <OculusAquilae> you're right
[06:22] <Flosoft> but why does the drive disappear in system:/media/ ?
[06:23] <OculusAquilae> hm
[06:23] <Flosoft> so maybe it is better if kaffeine uses dvd:/
[06:24] <Flosoft> as xine-ui can stil run that without having it listed in xine-ui
[06:24] <Flosoft> eh ... system:/media/
[06:24] <Flosoft> :p
[06:25] <Flosoft> or never mind ... it reappears in system ...
[06:25] <Flosoft> who is working on kaffeine here?
[06:25] <OculusAquilae> would like to have documentation for that thing
[06:26] <Flosoft> as it worked in the previous versions
[06:27] <OculusAquilae> at the moment I look at these .desktop files
[06:43] <Flosoft> is there a graphical client for .rar files?
[06:43] <Flosoft> can ark extract them?
[06:43] <OculusAquilae> if you have unrar installed
[06:44] <OculusAquilae> i think so
[06:46] <OculusAquilae> hm
[06:46] <OculusAquilae> don't know how to fix it
[06:47] <OculusAquilae> except changing code of kaffeine, so that it changes the input to what it needs
[06:47] <Flosoft> hmm
[07:48] <kl> hi
[07:49] <kl> I'm new here
[07:51] <OculusAquilae> hi kl
[07:52] <kl> I haven't been using IRC for years, so I'm a bit losy
[07:52] <kl> lost
[07:52] <OculusAquilae> :)
[07:52] <kl> What client do you recommend? ksirc is a bit hard
[07:53] <OculusAquilae> i use konversation
[07:53] <OculusAquilae> standard in kubuntu
[07:53] <kl> OK
[07:53] <kl> And I guess I should register my nick somewhere?
[07:54] <OculusAquilae> kl: right
[07:54] <OculusAquilae> try to type "/msg NickServ help" for more info
[07:54] <kl> OK I found it
[07:59] <klichota> OK, I've got nick
[07:59] <klichota> I have already spoke to riddell, I would like to contribute to Kubuntu
[08:00] <klichota> I know C++, some Qt and a bit of Python
[08:00] <klichota> So, how is this organized? Do you have some meetings?
[08:01] <OculusAquilae> nice
[08:01] <OculusAquilae> there are meetings
[08:01] <OculusAquilae> let me look for the wiki page
[08:02] <klichota> I did some testing on Kubuntu flight 5 and I have a lot of issues to raise
[08:02] <OculusAquilae> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings -- no new meeting planned
[08:02] <klichota> Do you talk about issues here or should I submit bugs?
[08:03] <OculusAquilae> I think you should submit them
[08:04] <klichota> OK
[08:04] <OculusAquilae> perhaps you could wake some devs up if you ask here, but I don't know :)
[08:04] <klichota> How to wake them up?
[08:04] <OculusAquilae> :)
[08:05] <klichota> What is this bugbot?
[08:05] <OculusAquilae> I mean only write it here and if somebody reads it it's possible that he starts to work on it :)
[08:05] <OculusAquilae> bugbot?
[08:05] <Riddell> hi klichota 
[08:05] <klichota> Hello :)
[08:06] <klichota> OK, I guess I should start submitting bugs
[08:06] <klichota> But I 
[08:06] <klichota> But I'm not sure if it is useful for Espresso
[08:06] <klichota> Espresso seems pre-alpha
[08:06] <Riddell> probably not for espresso yet
[08:06] <Riddell> yes, it is
[08:06] <klichota> I couldn't even make it install by wiping the whole hard drive
[08:07] <klichota> Or any other partitioning option
[08:07] <klichota> Which one should work?
[08:07] <Riddell> probably none yet
[08:07] <klichota> OK :)
[08:07] <Riddell> how far did you get?
[08:08] <klichota> Well, it started partitioning, but then failed
[08:08] <klichota> The message was: Failed to create a filesystem
[08:08] <klichota> You can see it here: http://lichota.net/~krzysiek/kubuntu-bugs/epresso-failed-to-create-filesystem.png
[08:09] <Riddell> yeah, that's about as far as I'd expect it to get
[08:09] <Riddell> try again at the end of next week, hopefully I'll have worked on it some more :)
[08:10] <klichota> It also swapped my root partition and swap in custom partitioner. See fish://krzysiek@lichota.net/home/krzysiek/public_html/kubuntu-bugs/partition-manager-swaps-root-and-swap2.png
[08:10] <klichota> Oops
[08:11] <klichota> http://lichota.net/~krzysiek/kubuntu-bugs/partition-manager-swaps-root-and-swap2.png
[08:11] <Riddell> so if you want to help, espresso would welcome it, but you'd need to wait for me merging it with kamion's branch
[08:11] <klichota> OK
[08:11] <klichota> Can you tell me how development workflow is set?
[08:11] <klichota> Do you have some shared repository for code?
[08:11] <klichota> What VCS do you have?
[08:12] <Riddell> I use bzr
[08:12] <Riddell> a new distributed version control system from canonical
[08:12] <klichota> Is it official and recommended?
[08:12] <Riddell> yes
[08:12] <klichota> OK, I will learn it :)
[08:13] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEspresso
[08:13] <klichota> What other VCS does it resemble? CVS? git?
[08:13] <Riddell> it's designed to be easy to use for a CVS/SVN user
[08:13] <Riddell> but it's distributed so it's still quite different
[08:14] <klichota> So there is no central repository?
[08:14] <Riddell> no, but kamion (colin watson) has the definitive respoitory that gets packaged and put in the archives
[08:15] <klichota> So you have your branch and periodically merge it with his?
[08:15] <Riddell> yes
[08:15] <Riddell> it's currently a bit out of date unfortunately
[08:15] <klichota> So I should do the same, i.e. create my own branch?
[08:15] <Riddell> yes, branch from mine 
[08:15] <Riddell> bzr branch http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/espresso/ubuntu/
[08:15] <klichota> OK, what is the address?
[08:16] <klichota> OK
[08:16] <klichota> Any other tips how to set up workplace?
[08:16] <klichota> Do you do development and test on the same machine?
[08:17] <klichota> I mean apart from espresso :)
[08:17] <Riddell> I test from a live CD onto a computer where I don't care about the hard disk
[08:18] <klichota> So you have a way to create live CD with your changes?
[08:18] <klichota> I was trying to do it, but I got stuck
[08:18] <klichota> I cannot find the script which creates live cd - livecd-rootfs
[08:18] <klichota> I wrote to ubuntu-devel mailing list, but without answer
[08:18] <Riddell> no, but you can install stuff on a live CD easily
[08:19] <klichota> By mounting?
[08:19] <klichota> Does squashfs support writing?
[08:19] <Riddell> just remember to rsync it off before you switch the computer off
[08:19] <Riddell> it does
[08:19] <klichota> OK, cool
[08:19] <klichota> The instructions on wiki were about cloop, and it is really burdensome
[08:21] <klichota> BTW. What is SCIM and why is it run in Kubuntu?
[08:23] <klichota> one more important question - do you do development on dapper or on breezy? I've heard bzr is only in dapper?
[08:24] <Riddell> on dapper
[08:24] <Riddell> yes, you'd need to use dapper
[08:24] <OculusAquilae> hm I used bzr with breezy some time ago
[08:24] <klichota> OK
[08:25] <klichota> As for adept, is it still possible to do some improvements?
[08:25] <klichota> For example IMO adding repository sources should be simpler
[08:26] <klichota> Another "workplace" question: what packages should I install? Do you use PyQT/PyKDE?
[08:26] <Riddell> pykde
[08:27] <klichota> AFAIK it does not support KDE 3.5?
[08:27] <klichota> There is only snapshot
[08:27] <Riddell> klichota: mornfall is incharge of adept, but we're past feature freeze now so no new features (unless Mark Shuttleworth wants them)
[08:27] <Riddell> klichota: pykde works fine on kde 3.5
[08:28] <klichota> I thought rather of UI changes, not new features
[08:29] <klichota> Like nicer dialog for specifying sources - with combos instead of deb/deb-src. Things like that
[08:29] <klichota> And displaying in nicer way, users do not want to see text lines with "deb/deb-src"
[08:32] <Riddell> a mockup would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure it's too late for dapper
[08:32] <mornfall> klichota: combos, how is that helpful?
[08:32] <mornfall> i think i had that and removed it
[08:32] <mornfall> well, combos
[08:33] <mornfall> i had a combo for type, deb vs deb-src
[08:33] <klichota> Well, I'm thinking something more intuitive than specifying repository line, as it is currently
[08:34] <mornfall> klichota: currently, it's cut and paste from somewhere
[08:34] <klichota> Like: combo for deb/deb-src, then line for URL then components
[08:34] <mornfall> klichota: that's roughly what 90% users will do
[08:34] <mornfall> klichota: adding combo makes it impossible to paste
[08:34] <klichota> Hmm
[08:34] <klichota> Maybe you're right
[08:35] <klichota> And is there any way to add source without this?
[08:35] <mornfall> i'm not sure to understand
[08:35] <klichota> Like click on some link and it will launch Adept to add specific source?
[08:35] <mornfall> not that i know of
[08:36] <mornfall> definitely not adept
[08:36] <klichota> All right, I guess after feature freeze it cannot be added
[08:36] <klichota> I will think it over for dapper+1
[08:37] <mornfall> you could distribute files that contain some nice description and a sources.list line that could be presented by a helper app when clicked in konqueror
[08:37] <klichota> I think I have enough to do for now: install dapper, learn bzr, learn creating debs and learn creating live cds :)
[08:38] <klichota> Yes, but such handler, as I understand, cannot be added after feature freeze?
[08:38] <klichota> BTW. Is Klik supported in Kubuntu?
[08:38] <klichota> I haven't seen it on live cd
[08:40] <hunger> klichota: that is a question for #kubuntu I think.
[08:40] <hunger> klichota: I don't know... but I do not see why it shouldn't work.
[08:41] <klichota> Well, it will not work if it is not shipped with Kubuntu
[08:41] <hunger> klichota: apt-cache search does not find it.
[08:41] <klichota> Whether specific app works or not is another question
[08:41] <hunger> klichota: It is a dirty hack anyway... I wouldn't want to support it.
[08:42] <klichota> It is not a dirty hack, I see it rather as smart hack
[08:42] <klichota> And for users it is a big advantage
[08:42] <hunger> klichota: It would be if there were unlimited loop devices.
[08:42] <klichota> They don't have to install apps, just run it from desktop
[08:43] <klichota> AFAIK there are plans to port it to use FUSE
[08:43] <hunger> klichota: As it is it might work or not depending on what other users are doing on the system.
[08:44] <klichota> FUSE solves this problem
[08:44] <hunger> klichota: Yeap.
[08:44] <klichota> And I think that for single user desktop it is not a problem anyway
[08:44] <hunger> klichota: That might turn it into a clever hack:-)
[08:45] <hunger> klichota: Single user desktops can use apt basically as well.
[08:46] <klichota> I think FUSE has many uses in desktop system, think mounting SMB/WebDAV shares for each user :)
[08:46] <klichota> But it is a future, for now we have to concentrate on dapper :)
[08:46] <hunger> klichota: If you do allow the user to install stuff... if not, then they shouldn't be allowed to use klick either.
[08:46] <klichota> IMO it is easier to install apps using Klik than apt/Adept
[08:47] <hunger> klichota: see plan9 for a system with a really clever use of mounts:-)
[08:47] <klichota> Maybe we should invent something to make "one click install" possible for Adept
[08:47] <klichota> Haven't yet have chance to look at plan9 closer
[08:47] <klichota> Not enough time :)
[08:48] <klichota> And their announcement says not much more than "port of plan9 fs to Linux"
[08:48] <klichota> Which gives little idea WHY this FS is better than others
[08:49] <hunger> klichota: It isen't.
[08:49] <hunger> klichota: plan9 does the "everything as a file(system)" much more thouroughly than unix.
[08:50] <klichota> OK, I will dig it when I have some time
[08:50] <klichota> Thanks for the tip :)
[08:50] <klichota> I am leaving now to prepare my workplace and file some bugs :)
[08:50] <hunger> klichota: You do stuff like "mount the network stack of the firewall"...
[08:50] <klichota> Hm, does not sound sensible
[08:50] <hunger> klichota: And then you can use it just like the local one.
[08:51] <klichota> Network stack?
[08:51] <hunger> klichota: Makes setting up VPNs and routing trivial in a network.
[08:51] <klichota> Hm, interesting
[08:51] <mornfall> klichota: that assumes people can find the app in klik format
[08:52] <hunger> klichota: yeap, definitly worth a look if you have time.
[08:52] <klichota> Not much time yet, but I will :)
[08:52] <klichota> Thanks a lot, bye :)
[08:52] <OculusAquilae> bye
[11:58] <Hobbsee> morning all
[11:59] <toma> morning
[11:59] <toma> is it that late already ?
[11:59] <Hobbsee> yes, 10am
[12:00] <toma> it is just midnight here.
[12:01] <Hobbsee> wow
[12:02] <Hobbsee> you could keep up with the time, you know :P
[12:03] <toma> yes I could, at least that means i dont have to get up at 8/9/10am my time anymore