[12:02] most people will understand/see, I guess (language errors, IP in the US, hotmail address, ...), but certainly some won't [12:03] that would just give the impression you can get him to comment on things if you troll/fake enough [12:03] nvm the actual content of course === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman is now known as GmanAFK [12:05] azeem: hrmz, yeah, well, that's true too. Anyway, Mark is prefectly capable of dealing with this himself, so, well. [12:06] if you want him to see it, you'd need to e-mail him about it [12:06] but I imagine having, well, just about anyone reasonably well-known in Debian/Ubuntu follow up saying "this wasn't Mark, please don't feed the troll" would do fine [12:08] jvw: what email is this? [12:09] LaserJock: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00894.html [12:10] errors> also, er, people generally spell their own names right [12:11] Kamion: http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/culmus/breezy-updates/ === mario_ [n=mario@83-131-250-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:12] sivang: it's difficult for me to review it until it actually lands in the queue [12:12] sivang: but get somebody to upload it and I'll happily do so [12:12] you should keep the changelog entry from the previous upload [12:13] have -2ubuntu2 describe the delta from -2ubuntu1 to -2ubuntu2, and upload with -v0.101-2 so that both changelog entries are visible in the .changes file (and thus on breezy-changes) [12:13] s/upload/build/ === nictuku [n=yves@200-140-162-205.bsace7021.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:15] troll posting> followed up with a hopefully-preemptive don't-feed-the-troll [12:16] Kamion: -v is passed to dput or debuild? [12:17] ah, debuild [12:18] yes, although your sponsor will have to do that too [12:18] assuming they don't just sign your source package verbatim, which they shouldn't [12:19] I'll prepare a detailed email for pitti on that together with metnionting to him the -vVER thingy, but tomorrow. getting too much close to bed time here. thanks for the tips, I'll make sure this won't get rejected this time :) === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:21] do we still need to fakesync stuff from debian? === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:34] Lathiat: yes, syncs aren't working yet === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:34] Kamion: cheers [12:36] is there any reason why apt-get and update-manager are not getting quite the same stuff? === aitor [n=aitor@69.Red-83-52-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:58] mjg59: btw, it appears my problem is bug 31543 [12:58] Malone bug 31543 in xserver-xgl "Xgl not working on ppc" [Normal,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/31543 [01:02] amOk [01:02] Nngh. [01:02] jdub: Ping? [01:04] jdub: What's the situation on new usplash artwork? === JanC_ [n=janc@dD577040E.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=amaranth@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tiagovaz [n=tiago@MTL-HSE-ppp181381.qc.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:23] mjg59: the invalid read errors in my xorg log (seem to be related to this) are supposedly fixed in suse === _human_blip_ [n=mike@mike.nelsonbay.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mat__ [n=mat@d01v-213-44-210-135.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Kyral [n=Chris@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:57] The Ubuntu Welcome Page is using XHTML Transitional, just wondering if you would plan to make it strict? === seth [n=seth@ubuntu/member/seth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tritium [n=tritium@ubuntu/member/tritium] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:00] joelbryan, welcome page? ubuntu.com ? [02:01] no [02:01] the one that loads when you start firefox [02:02] joelbryan, ah, you need to talk to someone in #ubuntu-doc [02:03] ok === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel === JanC_ [n=janc@dD577040E.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hendry [n=hendry@222.106.128.34] has joined #ubuntu-devel === GmanAFK is now known as Gman === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.11.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === theCore [n=alex@toronto-HSE-ppp4205619.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === juanpietravallo [n=juanpiet@200-55-122-209.dsl.prima.net.ar] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bddebian@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-devel === farruinn [n=nathan@ssprange-3.umm.maine.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel === setuid [i=japh@gnu-designs.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:11] I've pulled the kernel source package, and I'm trying to build ibm_acpi with some patches... how do I do this? (normally I'd do 'make modules SUBDIRS=drivers/acpi', but that doesn't work with Ubuntu kernel source packages) === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-devel === SloMoSnail [n=slomo@p5486F763.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tiefox [n=giovanni@200.208.130.3] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=amaranth@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === _human_blip_ [n=mike@mike.nelsonbay.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=vx@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bluewall21 [i=Remote@cpe-24-29-5-128.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/g0sub] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bluewall21 [i=Remote@cpe-24-29-5-128.cinci.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel === eirejah [i=jahshua@isafailure.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.10.66.27.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:43] infinity: did we get that Xorg update? [04:44] oh, i guess it's not quite so critical for us, as our Xorg is not suid [04:46] Which update? === No1Viking [n=Viking@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:46] infinity: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alanc?entry=security_hole_in_xorg_6 [04:46] And is ours really not suid? [04:46] Hrm. Doesn't seem to be in dapper... [04:47] I wonder if startx even works in dapper, then. === No1Viking [n=Viking@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [04:47] it wouldn't, no [04:47] no, it doesnt [04:47] but that is good :-) [04:47] i noticed that [04:47] which is bad.. [04:47] (it could tell you why, though) [04:47] Surely we're suid root in warty/hoary/breezy... [04:47] i think it was fixed for breezy [04:48] The lack of suid in dapper is a packaging error, I'm sure, not a conscious decision. [04:48] though i don't have any breezy boxes anymore [04:48] ask pitti. he is fierce. :-) [04:52] Oh, nice bug. [04:54] who cares about parenthesis anyway [04:56] so you see, ruby wouldn't have this problem, parenthesis optional :) [04:56] they should rewrite Xorg in ruby [04:58] :/ === holycow [n=a@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:04] same [05:04] err [05:04] wrong [05:05] jdub: I have a +s X, but not Xorg, on my upgraded-to-breezy laptop, FYI [05:09] Oh, duh. It's +s on dapper, too, I was looking at the wrong binary. Thanks maswan. :) [05:09] (/usr/bin/X being a wrapper around /usr/bin/Xorg) [05:09] In which case, startx should work on dapper... At least, it should work on my machine.. [05:11] then the bug is an issue [05:11] hmmmm [05:11] infinity: should i take care of that X security hole? [05:11] well THAT.. there are probably one per line.. [05:12] but at least that one.. [05:13] You going to upload for all 4 dists? [05:13] hmmmm [05:13] let's wait pitti [05:13] I was about to start on it, but if you want to be the X man today. :) [05:13] no no [05:13] i will keep going on dapper bug list [05:13] i want to get down to 160/150 today [05:14] hi fabbione and infinity [05:14] Okay, you keep attacking dapper, I'm happy to do the security updates. [05:14] infinity: ok === _human_blip_ [n=mike@mike.nelsonbay.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === fabbione shows his metal fingers around === infinity notices hppa security builds still trickling in on jackass... [05:14] Go lamont! [05:15] LOL [05:15] infinity: speaking of -security.. what about vivies? [05:15] vivies and I need to sit down and have a chat about security soon, yes. [05:15] infinity: we could just get g-p-m fixed and get LiveCD out [05:16] And we'll chat about livecds too. [05:16] good idea :) [05:16] Neither is much effort, I'm just hunting desperately for tuits of the correct shape and size. [05:16] SCC tuits! === na7e wishes he knew half of what you're talking about [05:17] probably about a consert of something [05:17] Oh, neat, the advisory claims 6.8.2 and earlier don't have the bug. [05:17] infinity: oh, suck === infinity will double-check this, but we could be safe. [05:18] hmm [05:18] (re: X vs. Xorg) [05:18] new xorg-server version or just the fix? === infinity grabs all our old source right now to check. === fabbione ponders [05:18] The fix is two characters. [05:18] infinity: yeah i know that [05:19] Oh, 4 characters, it's in two parts of the code. :) [05:19] infinity: i am considering 1.0.2 or just the patch.. [05:19] it's a hard choise [05:19] 1.0.2 may make up ABI incompatible with some drivers, if we're really unlucky. [05:19] (which would make a great excuse to update all the drivers!) === fabbione takes a look at the diff === glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-64-134.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:29] going for 1.0.2 is totally harmless [05:30] there are 2/3 bug fixes.. one of which is the security and the other one is the sparc i already did in 1.0.1 [05:30] Alright, then that'd be the way to go. [05:30] yea me too [05:30] And don't forget to mention the CVE in the changelog. [05:30] Or pitti will hurt you. :) [05:30] i know [05:30] nah [05:30] <_ion> hunger: I couldn't repeat the interfaces bug you reported. [05:31] infinity: i am going to upload 1.0.1 for now and prepare 1.0.2 for Kamion and mdz.. [05:31] infinity: it's a no brain anyway [05:31] <_ion> hunger: n-m seems to parse interfaces correcty, and i didn't get a d-bus error when i tried many combinations for eth0 settings (with auto, without auto, dhcp, static). [05:38] fabbione: Okay, panic averted, the bug definitely only exists in dapper. === infinity deltes all those source trees and carries on with his day. [05:41] great, grub hates me now - looks like the install was not a success [05:42] infinity: ehheeh ok.. i have already fixed dapper.. and i have 1.0.2 almost ready === Gman is now known as GmanAFK [05:54] mdz: you still around? === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hendry [n=hendry@222.106.128.34] has joined #ubuntu-devel === joelbryan [n=joelbrya@210.213.161.188] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=admin@clj46-234.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:22] fabbione: barely [06:22] If you're still in London, you really shouldn't be.. [06:22] mdz: ok nothing urgent.. it can wait when you are back [06:22] (shouldn't be around, that is) [06:23] I'm not; I'm at home [06:23] mdz: otherwise it would be nice to have an UVF exception for xorg-server [06:23] mdz: Oh, phew. [06:23] mdz: the only diff from our code and upstream is one bug fix (3 lines) [06:23] mdz: but it will allow us to drop 5 local patches [06:23] mdz: that are of course upstream.. [06:23] fabbione: sounds fine [06:24] mdz: ok.. i will upload after finishing the tests.. [06:24] mdz: thanks [06:24] fabbione: how is the bug list for X? [06:25] mdz: yesterday i killed 17 bugs.. i started from A and going down to Z [06:25] mdz: if malone doesn't lie to me, we had 200 bugs.. === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:26] fabbione: so almost 10% smaller then ;-) [06:26] mdz: yeps :) [06:26] mdz: these were all stupid bugs.. but i needed to warm up my X knowledge again.. === fabbione streches his wings on X again... [06:27] who feels lucky today??? [06:27] http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/xcrack/ [06:27] please test ASAP [06:27] or be silent forever === LaserJock is now known as LaserJock_away [06:55] infinity: the issue is that bld-4 can only build them after they publish, not before [06:55] infinity: and avahi, koffice are known b0rked, and the rest of kde is d-w libarts1, which is ftbfs (ICE). [06:55] gcc-3.4 might build if I give it back, or it might just ICE again === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:01] avahi is known b0rked ? [07:02] Lathiat: on hppa [07:02] ah [07:02] got a build log? [07:02] on LP? [07:04] Status: [07:04] Successfully built [07:04] ? [07:05] doesnt actually work? === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=admin@clj46-234.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:23] Lathiat: He may be referring to breezy/breezy-security. === j^_ [n=j@e178045105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === fabbione [i=fabbione@gordian.fabbione.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === JaneW [n=JaneW@dsl-165-197-110.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:38] xorg-server 1.0.2 looks good... [07:48] doko: what are we going to do with zope2.x now that various python2.3 bits are missing? [07:48] I know it's in universe, but it's rather useful to have :) === Chipzz [n=chipzz@ace.ulyssis.student.kuleuven.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Kamion [n=cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === infinity wonders why he can't right-click on an ISO to have it pmounted automagically in /media ... [07:59] That would be kinda spiffy. === zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:01] <_ion> infinity: Install the "Manage Actions" thingy for nautilus. [08:01] <_ion> infinity: I haven't created such a menu item, but i do have a "Play as a DVD" item for ISO images. [08:02] <_ion> It runs mplayer -dvd-device foo.iso dvd:// [08:03] infinity: hey. until i manage to grab ahold of benc, do you perchance now the rationale behind the HZ=100 setting for the server kernel? [08:03] s/now/know/ === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:03] neuralis: Because it's good and pure and true? [08:04] neuralis: Lower HZ == less responsive, but faster machine. [08:04] <_ion> 100 is also a nice, round number, just like 256. [08:04] neuralis: For a "server-only" machine, that's the upstream recommended value. [08:04] infinity: i'm aware of the O/S theory behind the number, but i also seem to recall a metric poopton of synchronization troubles on linux SMP machines running at HZ=100 [08:04] infinity: did that get cleared up? [08:05] neuralis: For shared-task machines, they recommend 250 (we don't ship a kernel with 250, I don't think), and for desktops, something ridiculously high, like 1000 (which we ship) [08:05] neuralis: I'm aware of no such poopton, but you may want to ask BenC. :) [08:06] infinity: yeah, okay. i can't remember when i saw that, so it's possible it was a few years back. === pschulz01 [n=paul@eth6067.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:14] Good morning [08:14] morning pitti [08:14] <_ion> 'ning. [08:14] morning [08:15] pitti: the new wastebasket icon is part of ubuntu-artwork, no? === Chipzz_ [n=chipzz@ace.ulyssis.student.kuleuven.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:20] Burgundavia: no idea TBH === highvoltage [n=Jono@mtngprs7.mtn.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:21] pitti: Can pmount do loopback devices? [08:22] pitti: So I could hack up a cute nautilus action that would allow me to right-click an ISO and mount it to /media/loopX ? === elkbuntu [n=melissa@203-214-128-159.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:23] infinity: not right now, that's a long-standing wishlist item [08:23] pitti: Obviously, we'd need some smart defaults to prevent us from, say, mounting an ext3 image loopback with root-owned suid files on it, or something equally bad, but I assume you already have that safety in place for removeable devices with the same scary. [08:24] In fact, pretend I didn't just mention that, obviously that's already adressed (I hope) [08:24] pitti: The loopback thing wouldn't be too tough to sort, I suspect. [08:24] infinity: yes, you can't disable nosuid and nodev in pmount :) [08:25] pitti: Oh, and BTW, if you have scary stuff in your INBOX about X vulns, I just triple-checked that warty/hoary/breezy aren't vulnerable, and Fabio uploaded for dapper. [08:25] infinity: I didn't think about mounting loopback devices directly, but pmounting iso images should be easy [08:25] infinity: I know about X, I planned to fix it today; it's just dapper [08:26] Yeah, so I saw. It's fixed now. :) [08:26] pitti: we already di [08:26] +d [08:26] pitti: you need to start to work at "real man" TZ [08:26] oh, great, thanks guys [08:26] or you will always be left out ;) [08:26] pitti: since we did spare you the X issue.. could you please reallocate that time for git-core? [08:27] fabbione: yes, sorry, I forgot [08:27] Is that the same git-core that causes the hppa buildds to spin incessantly until the build gets killed? :/ [08:28] (seems happy on other arches though, so whatever, I'll investigate later) === woodwizzle [n=garage@user-0cej715.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:30] Hello [08:31] I'm planning on creating my own distro based on ubuntu [08:31] liveCD particularly === Yvonne [n=01101110@pdpc/supporter/active/Yvonne] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:32] woodwizzle, the guys in here probably a bit too busy for this stuff, did you try #ubuntu-motd? [08:32] s/d/u/ [08:33] nope, that'll be my next stop, thanks [08:33] woodwizzle: he means #ubuntu-motu [08:33] gah, she and yes [08:33] I'm just looking for some basic info to get me started, I've never done anything like it before and dunno where to begin [08:33] those two abbr are too similar :P [08:34] elkbuntu: oh, sorry. she :) [08:34] no prob === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:36] while people are responding. apt-get result is far different to the update-notifier result. i'm using the mvo (??) version of the notifier i think. someone in here told me to use it instead a few days ago [08:36] joelbryan, ping === Aegir [n=richard@d58-105-36-34.dsl.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:38] elkbuntu, the update-manager doesn't include packages which are upgraded when you do a dist-upgrade. Is that what you mean? [08:38] mdke doing fresh screenshots now [08:38] i did some earlier, but theres alot more pacakages listed now [08:38] and no, a plain upgrade [08:39] the update manager is doing more than apt-get upgrade [08:39] how odd [08:39] or, wanting to [08:39] you have a custom version of update-manager? [08:39] mdke, uh, one done by mvo or something like that [08:39] elkbuntu, all the ones are done by mvo [08:39] well that makes it hard then [08:40] you installed one yourself? [08:40] what version? [08:40] i came in here a few days ago to ask why both gnome and x screensaver were both installed, and someone told me i wasnt using the right update-manager since it hadnt removed xscreensaver [08:41] the answer is likely to be that you have been running dapper for some time :) [08:41] I don't think one gets removed automatically. [08:41] mdke not really, i apt-get dist-upgraded this install about a month ago === doko [n=doko@dslb-088-073-083-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:42] anyway 'apt-cache policy update-manager': [08:42] Installed: 0.42.2ubuntu8 Candidate: 0.42.2ubuntu8 === ptlo [n=senko@83-131-74-71.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:42] that's the same one I have [08:42] elkbuntu: The update manager will do "upgrade + new packages", while apt-get upgrade does "only upgrade, if nothing is added or removed" [08:42] file a bug then, I suppose [08:42] aha [08:42] infinity, apt-get is holding stuff back [08:43] elkbuntu: That's intentional, so we can pull in kernel upgrades (which require new packages) with update-manager. [08:43] elkbuntu: Yes, read what I said again. === mdke learns something new [08:43] elkbuntu: "apt-get upgrade" won't change anything (add/remove packages), it will only upgrade packages. [08:43] elkbuntu: "apt-get dist-upgrade" will violently add and remove packages to try to upgrade you. [08:43] so update-manager runs dist-upgrade, not upgrade? [08:44] elkbuntu: update-manager is halfway between (it will only add packages, never remove) [08:44] oooh [08:44] i prefer to use apt-get, since it's a zillion times quicker [08:45] is there not an apt-get version of 'halfway inbetween'? [08:45] Then you get to either dist-upgrade and carefully read the output to make sure it's not breaking something, or do upgrade, then manually "apt-get install" each package it's holding back to see why. [08:45] No, apt-get doesn't have the "add only" option. (other than the advice I just gave) === woodwizzle [n=garage@user-0cej715.cable.mindspring.com] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [08:46] hmmm... if there's no known explosive issues i guess i'll dist-upgrade :P [08:46] they are kept back for a reason generally, I think [08:47] If dist-upgrade isn't threatening to remove anything starting with ubuntu- (ubuntu-minimal, ubuntu-desktop, etc), you're probably fine. [08:47] mdke i pity the poor person dist-upgrading from breezy at this very minute then :) [08:47] <_ion> The reason was just given a few lines above. :-) [08:47] mdke: kept back package are only kept back because upgrading them will force the removal of something else. This isn't necessarily a bad thing (in fact, we do it on purpose a lot), it's just stressful for people who are trying to figure out why. :) [08:47] ah [08:48] mvo's cute little dist-upgrader tool is meant to take some of the mystery out of this for people going from breezy->dapper who aren't terribly CLI-friendly. [08:48] I thought some packages are kept back on purpose because they are known to break things [08:48] mdke, i guess it's about 'potential' [08:49] anyway, i'll let youse know in a while if it explodes me ;) === Fjodor [n=sune@0x55510b65.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:50] btw, one other thing.. who broke amarok's xine engine *cries* [08:53] <_ion> Hmm. I googled and found this is this in breezy? http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mvo/dist-upgrader/dist-upgrade.png [08:54] _ion: It will be in breezy-updates yes, that's the point. [08:54] <_ion> Very nice. [08:54] _ion: We'll recommend people install it to do their dist-upgrade. [08:55] that should be added to the releasenotes I suppose === mvo [n=egon@p54A66256.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:56] speak of the devil [08:56] hi mvo [08:56] hey pitti [08:58] <_ion> There's a stomach where wrestling happens. === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === netstar [n=al@d58-104-63-13.dsl.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.10.66.27.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel === auxesis [n=lindsay@quasimodo.unstated.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.10.66.27.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ubuntulog [i=ubuntulo@trider-g7.fabbione.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Flight 5 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | UI sprint in #dapper-look === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by Mithrandir at Sat Mar 11 21:50:17 2006 [04:04] (BenC/#ubuntu-devel) ide-generic is actually causing immediate problems, and the "bus type" thing is just a hack [04:04] (Kamion/#ubuntu-devel) and is there any other safe way to fix that hardware? [04:04] (mdz/#ubuntu-devel) BenC: what problems? [04:05] (BenC/#ubuntu-devel) mdz: problem where SATA isn't detecting fast enough, so ide-generic gets loaded and your SATA controller is suddenly a legacy IDE controller [04:05] Kamion: not so much a regression as it is that it's much more common [04:06] can we do the 10-second thing (although I thought we did it already) and *not* do UUID? [04:06] that coupled with the fact that we need UUID support in order to make the change from IDE to SATA/PATA drivers next release [04:06] where does UUID enter into it? [04:06] BenC: we have to cope with migration from breezy anyway, doesn't much matter whether we do that in dapper [04:06] we made an explicit decision way back at UBZ not to do rely on UUID by default for dapper [04:06] switching IDE to PATA requires us to do UUID atleast one release before [04:06] BenC: No, since we can't enforce UUIDs on upgrades [04:06] highvoltage: ping [04:06] but breezy->dapper upgrades wouldn't switch fstab/grub menu.lst etc. [04:06] BenC: how so? I don't see why we couldn't make that change on upgrade [04:07] ok, UUID makes it _simpler_ [04:07] Or, if we /can/ enforce that on upgrades, we can do it on upgrade anyway [04:07] mjg59: right [04:07] I'm thinking of an evil hack. [04:07] mounting root by UUID by default is a completely appropriate dapper+1 feature [04:07] trivial to switch on early, plenty of time to sort it out, dapper waiting in the wings if it turns out to be chancy [04:07] UUID is the minor issue here, the ide-generic delay is the major one [04:08] we could encode the uuid of the current root fs in the initrd and fall back to that if / doesn't appear. [04:08] I've got no objection to changing initramfs-tools for that at this stage [04:08] Mithrandir: there's a sweet idea [04:08] BenC: I think we should fix that in any case. It's initramfs-tools that needs fixing - who's working on that right now? [04:08] if we get it wrong, it'll be noticed quickly, and it's fixable on upgrades [04:08] it's a hack, but it'd probably save our backside, wouldn't it? [04:08] installer bugs take much much longer for people to notice [04:08] infinity is the culprit :) [04:10] ok, so initramfs-tools, record UUID in image, check it if / doesn't appear, if neither shows up, delay 10 seconds, load ide-generic and repeat with current delay (30 seconds?) [04:10] that sound good? [04:10] also, for the IDE->PATA upgrade, I'd actually prefer if dapper didn't do UUIDs so that the upgrade issues from installations made using breezy or earlier were right in our face rather than being hidden [04:10] Kamion: good point [04:10] (since I doubt we have time to get the upgrades right for all boot loaders etc. at this point) [04:10] Kamion: didn't do, as in, didn't fall back? [04:11] jdub: pong [04:11] Mithrandir: no, I mean didn't mount root by UUID by default in the simple way [04:11] Kamion: or are you talking about what's put on the kernel command line? [04:11] not referring to your hack [04:11] command line [04:11] Kamion: sure, so not changing the current state, which is to do it for stuff we see is on removable devices in the installer, but nothing else. [04:12] highvoltage: hey - mind if i copy those cake images onto the fridge? don't want to punish your server by deep linking to them. === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.10.66.27.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:12] jdub: i won't mind at all, those images are hosted on some server in the UK with lots of bandwidth :) [04:15] Mithrandir: BTW, did you see my casper merge request? [04:15] wow [04:15] http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/300 [04:15] 300th post :) [04:16] Kamion: yes, sorry, I never got around to it. What's the URL again? [04:16] 15:14 < Kamion> Mithrandir: please merge http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/casper/espresso-passwd/ - fixes wrong defaults on espresso's user/password screen [04:16] hmm.. === maswan ponders [04:16] jdub: congrats :) [04:16] only debian cakes so far, should perhaps adjust that. :) [04:17] Kamion: oh, looks good. === Mithrandir wants tags in bzr. [04:18] Kamion: uploaded [04:18] maswan: You know what we expect from you when Sarek is upgraded :-) [04:18] what is the "standard" file to use to set an environment variable your session? [04:18] torkel: :) [04:18] Mithrandir: someone's working on updating the tags patch for bzr 0.8, iirc. [04:19] there is a bug on gnome-session than ~/.bashrc is not used by GNOME, it's not supposed to be, right? [04:19] seb128: it's not. Why should it? [04:19] heh, the forums folks are freaking out about the 2.6.16 kernel [04:19] "16 is one higher than 15, it must be better! we have to have this!" [04:19] seb128: gnome has .gnomerc, doesn't it? [04:20] Mithrandir: for no reason, but I want to point the guy to what to edit [04:20] Amaranth, typical for the forums [04:20] Mithrandir: yeah, gnome-session source ~/.gnomerc [04:20] jdub: lol! nice entry. thanks :) [04:21] Mithrandir: but is there a ~/.environment or something used by xorg whatever desktop you use? [04:21] Mithrandir: or you have to use /etc/environment? :) === lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:21] mdke: i wonder if your fascist proxy would block 'cocksmoking' [04:21] i don't think i've said that in my blog yet [04:22] seb128: ~/.pam_environment, yes. [04:22] nup [04:22] it's probably due [04:22] jdub: There is such a thing as "Too much Lugradio" [04:22] do they say cocksmoking? [04:22] probably [04:22] i should get a podcast client === Amaranth too [04:22] and a portable music player [04:22] jdub: planet works great for me :) [04:23] Mithrandir: ok, thank you [04:23] planet + wget = all the podcasting I need :) [04:23] planet doesn't suck down enclosures [04:23] heh [04:23] Kamion: ok, people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/espresso/trunk/ should be mergeable now. Note that I need to do two uploads before it's actually installable, though. [04:24] Mithrandir: ok, I'm going out to pick Benedict up from school in a moment so you have some time :) [04:24] jdub: let me know if you find a podcast client that doesn't suck. [04:24] thanks [04:24] does rhythmbox suck? [04:25] jdub: the podcast support there is pretty young, i haven't gotten around to trying it [04:25] banshee needs podcast support :/ === Marticus [n=demart01@12-210-128-9.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/g0sub] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tvo [n=tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=admin@clj46-234.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:32] Kamion: ok, all uploaded, please new espresso-kbd-chooser and I hope I didn't break anything. === dborg [n=daniel@e182063108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:46] mvo: ping [04:48] lbm: hello [04:48] mvo: can i msg you? [04:48] jdub: i quit like beep-media-player, although it's not for everyone [04:48] mvo: hi! [04:48] highvoltage: it does podcasting now?! [04:49] jdub: oops, missed that part.. erm... no :) [04:49] heh [04:49] rhythmbox is pretty solid on that part [04:50] jsgotangco: hello! [04:50] lbm: sure [04:50] mvo: have you given thought on glatzor's mail about the naming conventions? [04:52] jsgotangco: not, not yet. sorry. I was away the last two weeks and hadn't had time to think about this [04:52] mvo: same here catching up on emails actually === psusi [i=hidden-u@iriserv.iradimed.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:53] :) === vanhoofp [n=pvanhoof@mailhost.newtec.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:00] GAIM for chat? heh [05:01] is their some meta package with debug symbols? I want to do a backtrace on epiphany but no idea which debug symbol package i should get [05:02] Kamion, mdz, mjg59, Mithrandir: Sent a copy of the UUID/ide-generic discussion to u-d-a === TWD [n=chatzill@d213-103-127-28.cust.tele2.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === soumyadip [n=soumyadi@59.93.241.33] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === soumyadip is now known as GreeCheeseMoonDr === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === GreeCheeseMoonDr is now known as CheeseMoonDragon === CheeseMoonDragon is now known as soumyadip === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@s64-186-37-84.skycon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mpt [n=mpt@82.109.136.110] has joined #ubuntu-devel === glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-64-134.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:19] why does mounting by uuid depend on ide-generic? [05:21] psusi: that's a bit of a garbling of the discussion ... === netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net === _ion [i=johan@kiviniemi.name] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:22] Mithrandir: you uploaded kbd-chooser to unstable by mistake [05:28] so the gist of it is that you don't want to load ide-generic until you are sure you have tried all other drivers, but you have no way to know for sure that all the other drivers have given up? [05:29] psusi: You don't for sure === jinty [n=jinty@115.Red-80-24-9.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:34] and this is because the pci ide drivers load and probe for drives asycnrhonously, and have no method of signaling that they have completed their probe? [05:35] psusi: that's more SCSI [05:35] you load the driver, and at some later point the drive says "oh yeah, hi, I'm here" [05:36] and the problem is that the driver doesn't ever say "I have completed my scan, and found no drives" right? [05:36] no - the problem is that if you load ide-generic during that period, it'll grab anything that hasn't been grabbed by a more specific driver; if it grabs say a SATA drive, performance will degrade lots [05:37] so if you are hoping that it will find a drive you just have to wait for an arbitrary period of time? which isn't good... [05:37] the driver *does* say that, it just takes a while, and we're doing other stuff in the meantime [05:37] oh, sorry, it never says "no drives" AFAIK, right === MagnusR [n=magru@c83-250-59-127.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:37] but it's not really the driver's fault, it's having to ask the SCSI bus [05:37] right... that's what is needed then... the driver needs to signal when it has completed it's scan so if it found no drives, you can then fall back to ide-generic, right? [05:38] as I understand it, the driver has no way to know [05:38] it's not scanning, it's standing up and shouting "hello, is anyone there?" [05:38] sure it does... it knows how it is scanning for drives and when it is done it scans no more [05:38] Kamion: Well, there's two issues there [05:38] Kamion: The drivers won't start probing for disks before they've registered the interface, so there's no race with ide-generic there [05:38] well, if we're talking about scsi disks, then it issues a scsi INQUERY command to each possible bus/target [05:39] once it has done that for all busses/targets, it knows it is done scanning [05:39] Kamion: But you have no idea how long they're going to take scanning [05:39] Kamion: On the other hand, loading a PCI driver doesn't instantly bind it to the PCI device, and even then it doesn't instantly bind it to the IDE layer [05:39] And so ide-generic can grab it if it's loaded at the same time and you get unlucky [05:40] there has to be some signal you can watch for to see that the pci driver has bound to the device and ide layer right? [05:40] psusi: Ngh. Well, ish. [05:40] something in /proc [05:41] When it's bound to the PCI device, there'll be a device link in /sys/bus/pci/drivers/foo [05:41] But foo isn't necessarily related to the module name [05:41] FFS! This `recipe' for conffile-mangling in the preinst script _reads /var/lib/dpkg/status_ for the md5sum of the conffile ?! [05:42] And it renames things to .dpkg-tmp and FFS!! [05:44]