[12:38] <mhz> guys, I know we have discussed about "alternative ways" to generate and work with XMLs
[12:39] <mhz> Has any of you ever tried Texmacs
[12:39] <mhz> I know it is meant for scientific texts
[12:39] <mhz> BUT
[12:39] <LaserJock> for .xml ?
[12:39] <mhz> LaserJock: oh, well, IMHO, xml = docbook
[12:39] <mhz> :D
[12:40] <mhz> far from reality?
[12:40] <LaserJock> so what are you doing?
[12:40] <mhz> texmacs does allow to export to XML or Save As "Scheme"
[12:41] <LaserJock> well, so does openoffice ;-)
[12:41] <mhz> yeah, but I remember we dont use OOO for some reason
[12:41] <mhz> do same reasons apply to Texmacs?
[12:42] <LaserJock> well, I think it depends on how "nice" or clean the XML is that it outputs
[12:44] <LaserJock> I wonder if texmaker can output to XML too?
[12:45] <LaserJock> I do a far amount of latex but I usually use emacs or vim
[12:47] <mhz> well, as you know, I know just the theory of Latex and xml
[12:47] <mhz> so, I could hardly tell how clean the output is
[01:26] <john_the_linux_n> Hey guys
[01:27] <john_the_linux_n> Any ubuntu guys free for a couple of questions?
[01:27] <LaserJock> hi john_the_linux_n 
[01:28] <john_the_linux_n> its supposed to read newbie
[01:28] <john_the_linux_n> I've been playing with this for a couple of days
[01:28] <rob> john_the_linux_n, try #ubuntu
[01:28] <rob> this isn't a help channel :)
[01:29] <john_the_linux_n> Oh sorry guys
[01:29] <LaserJock> np
[01:52] <Burgwork> why do so many people assume -doc is a help channel?
[01:53] <rob> dunno
[01:53] <Burgwork> anyway, I am leaving work now
[02:35] <`6og> is moving a wiki page an easy process or do i have to delete it then re add it?
[02:35] <Burgundavia> `6og: what page do you want to move?
[02:36] <Burgundavia> `6og: oh, and your nick is really really annoying to type
[02:36] <Burgundavia> thanks
[02:36] <kgoetz> should be easier
[02:37] <Burgundavia> it was made worse by thefact that the ` is not labelled as such on my laptop, it being a physically a UK keyboard, but logically a US one
[02:37] <kgoetz> Burgundavia: i want to move this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/CompaqN1000C so it has "CompaqEvoN1000C" (it's currently missing the 'Evo')
[02:37] <kgoetz> heh. oh sorry.
[02:38] <Burgundavia> it is pretty easy
[02:39] <Burgundavia> first, click on the page title to see if there are any pages that refer to it
[02:39] <Burgundavia> it so, find those links and fix them
[02:39] <Burgundavia> then google the full page url "http://wiki.ubuntu...."
[02:39] <Burgundavia> if you find any links out in the wild, leave a redirect behind with #REDIRECT NewPageName
[02:40] <Burgundavia> but before you do that, to actually move a page, go the drop down menu on on the page and select "Move page"
[02:40] <kgoetz> i'll give it a shot, thanks.
[02:43] <kgoetz> wheres this drop down menu?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> it is called "More Actions"
[02:44] <kgoetz> oh right, the realy obvious one :$
[02:49] <kgoetz> that's got it, thanks Burgundavia
[02:49] <Burgundavia> kgoetz: np
[02:51] <Burgundavia> kgoetz: for future reference https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MovingWikiPages
[02:59] <Burgundavia> I am very glad I splurged on a $225 CDN router. download speeds are great
[08:14] <Madpilot> hi all
[08:15] <na7e-> howdy
[08:15] <kgoetz> gday
[08:15] <robitaille> hi Madpilot 
[08:29] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot, robitaille
[08:29] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
[08:29] <Burgundavia> what are you doing tomorrow night?
[08:32] <Madpilot> Saturday night? Nothing much at this point
[08:33] <Burgundavia> shall you, I and clive have beer and food together?
[08:34] <Madpilot> I'll ask Clive if he'll be in; he's just gone to bed
[09:22] <Burgundavia> hmm, wonder why the totem-plugin is in universe
[09:24] <robitaille> oh, that's why  it is not available in Firefox by default like in Breezy.  I was wondering about that
[09:26] <Burgundavia> both xine and gstreamer plugins are in unvierse
[09:28] <robitaille> personally I never had a good experience with that plugin in breezy; it was crashing on me more often than not
[09:30] <Burgundavia> trailers.apple.com seems to be working perfectly with ffmpeg
[10:20] <Madpilot> g'night all
[09:50] <LaserJock> are we having a wiki meeting
[09:52] <crimsun> not afaict
[09:52] <crimsun> (nothing on fridge or in this channel's topic, at least)
[09:52] <crimsun> (unless you meant cookbook?)
[09:52] <LaserJock> well it was on the ML
[10:02] <nalioth> is it meeting time?
[10:04] <LaserJock> is it? I haven't seen anybody else
[10:04] <nalioth> i got a msg in the ubuntu-doc mailing list for 2100 UTC today here
[10:05] <LaserJock> yeah, I did too but I don't see Naaman
[10:08] <LaserJock> hi duncan_nz 
[10:08] <duncan_nz> (sorry I'm late)
[10:08] <duncan_nz> hi lazer
[10:08] <LaserJock> well we haven't started anything
[10:09] <duncan_nz> but we're here to talk about the wiki right?
[10:10] <LaserJock> I'm always here ;-)
[10:10] <duncan_nz> oh, well I'll chill and wait to see if the other turn up, with europe changing from winter to summer time tonight - it was maybe a bad day to choose.
[10:57] <LaserJock> hmm, so are we going to try it again?
[10:57] <nalioth> ompaul: what are you doing here?
[11:06] <ompaul> nalioth, i don't know beenhere for months
[11:10] <nalioth> i guess the meeting is a no-go at this time?
[11:14] <duncan_nz> oops, I'm here
[11:14] <duncan_nz> the window didn't start flashing...
[11:15] <duncan_nz> nalioth - still there?
[11:15] <nalioth> yes
[11:16] <nalioth> i was just pointing out that nobody has joined (except ompaul ) since you have
[11:16] <duncan_nz> oh, but you and I should talk i think :)
[11:17] <nalioth> alrighty then
[11:17] <LaserJock> I'm here but I'm not much help
[11:17] <duncan_nz> well, are you : 	Naaman Campbell
[11:18] <duncan_nz> nalioth?
[11:18] <nalioth> no sir, i'm an unofficial ubuntu documentarian
[11:18] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: Naaman is bustacap I think
[11:19] <duncan_nz> oh, he was the one who suggested this meeting...
[11:19] <duncan_nz> nalioth, I thought you were Naaman - he's the guy I need a word with.
[11:20] <duncan_nz> I'll ask anyway ...
[11:20] <duncan_nz> What do people suggest to make the wiki a more useful resource? (my opinion comes soon)
[11:22] <LaserJock> is there a way to have a rating system or something. I think the most difficult things about the wiki are 1) finding the pages you want 2) figuring out the quality (reliability) of the page
[11:27] <ompaul> one of the things that is very frustrating on the wiki has to be pages that tell the same story
[11:28] <nalioth> i was under the impression that the docteam had oversight for fallacious/incomplete/etc content
[11:29] <LaserJock> I don't know how defined the role of the docteam is with respect to the wiki
[11:29] <duncan_nz> that's why this meeting was called - so i thought.
[11:29] <nalioth> the docteam is supposed to have oversight
[11:29] <duncan_nz> noone else has care of the wiki, and it _is_ documentation
[11:30] <duncan_nz> I've made some proposals and keep getting shut down
[11:30] <LaserJock> the wiki team is just a group of active wiki contributors
[11:30] <LaserJock> the wiki is open to everybody
[11:31] <duncan_nz> ah, but laser, some people are running aound reverting peoples work.
[11:31] <duncan_nz> (that really pissed me off)
[11:31] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: well, yes that can happen but I think that is what meetings, this channel, and the ML are fore
[11:31] <duncan_nz> anyone know why we use moinmoin - it's a bit lame compared to others like what wikimedia uses.
[11:32] <nalioth> yes, the wiki is open to everyone, but there must be oversight to keep "to fix your Xserver problems type 'malicious command goes here'
[11:32] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: well, that has been a bit of a discussion
[11:32] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: right now we are using moinmoin but we have disscussed using mediawiki in the past
[11:32] <duncan_nz> i think we seriously need more features.
[11:33] <LaserJock> well, I think that is a goal for sure
[11:33] <ompaul> is there a specific agenda for this?
[11:33] <ompaul> ohh
[11:33] <duncan_nz> i'm most frustrated by the lack of internal structure.
[11:33] <duncan_nz> so...
[11:33] <LaserJock> BetterWikiDocs is a spec on what the doc team would like to do with the wiki
[11:33] <ompaul> it is now 22:33 UTC
[11:33] <duncan_nz> I suggested that a link to FrontPage be placed on every user homepage with a note about why.
[11:36] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: what would that do exactly?
[11:36] <LaserJock> just so users can get back to the FrontPage easily?
[11:37] <duncan_nz> I hope it would be a step in making people aware that there is a place that things should have a relationship to...
[11:37] <duncan_nz> At the moment people can create a page anywhere and it can so easily get lost becasue people don't know where it should be in some hierarchy.
[11:38] <LaserJock> would better use of subpages help?
[11:39] <duncan_nz> I think that would also help, but not much the way it is now - it'd need to be more like wikinooks.
[11:39] <duncan_nz> (wikibooks)
[11:39] <duncan_nz> (duncan is reading BetterWikiDocs)
[11:40] <LaserJock> yeah, it would be nice to find an example of what you would like to see
[11:40] <LaserJock> I just don't have enough experience with wikis to know what you can do
[11:41] <duncan_nz> have a look at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Straw_Bale_Construction
[11:41] <duncan_nz> ... yes I've written a lot of it ... you'll notice when you click around that it's easy to get back up the hierarchy.
[11:42] <LaserJock> yeah, that seems nice
[11:43] <duncan_nz> if we want people to find help , then structure structure and predictability are key.
[11:43] <LaserJock> I think if we did something like that in combination with moving the doc wiki pages it would make things much cleaner
[11:45] <duncan_nz> also I think people need to move towards a standard wiki markup - and wikimedia will probably be the standard.
[11:45] <LaserJock> ahh hi Burgundavia 
[11:45] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: we are discussing the wiki
[11:46] <duncan_nz> Have you seen the php.net online manual? Take a look: http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.operators.comparison.php
[11:47] <duncan_nz> There they have a synced copy of the docs _and_ spave for comments below...
[11:47] <duncan_nz> I would like to see the same thing with synced docs from each release, and wiki editing space below.
[11:48] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:48] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: ok
[11:48] <duncan_nz> That way comments can evolve below each page and be included in the docs as the doc writers see fit.
[11:49] <duncan_nz> So, if someone thinks a new seciton 'skinning ells' should be added to the 'how not to burn toast' section they just add the link in the wiki and write the new page.
[11:50] <duncan_nz> This also serves the purpose of keeping the 'official' and 'community' docs clearly seperate - without divorcing them.
[11:50] <duncan_nz> ...am I rambling?
[11:50] <LaserJock> no
[11:51] <LaserJock> I think these issues are things we have been thinking about
[11:52] <duncan_nz> yes, I just gopt down to the 'Hosting of html documentation on the new wiki' section.
[11:53] <duncan_nz> actually no, that looks like it's just trying to solve html issues.
[11:55] <LaserJock> well, so far the spec hasn't been approved  so we are still trying to work on it
[11:59] <duncan_nz> Burgundavia: I just noticed you are a WikiTeam admin. Can you add me to that team please?
[11:59] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: I think the main thing is that people can more or less do whatever they want with the wiki so sometimes problems happen
[12:00] <duncan_nz> Laser: surely you don't type 'duncan_nz' each time do you? I can't work out how to get your nick to come up when I'm replying to you.
[12:00] <Madpilot> duncan_nz, have you proposed yourself for the team?
[12:00] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: <tab> ;-)
[12:01] <nalioth> duncan_nz: the <tab> key is great
[12:01] <duncan_nz> according to https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/wikiteam/ I have to ask an admin.
[12:02] <duncan_nz> TAB don't do it here? Just pressing tab? How does it know who I'm replying to?
[12:02] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: the LP page says you have to be approved not that you have to ask first
[12:02] <LaserJock> duncan_nz: go ahead and join and then you can be approved
[12:03] <duncan_nz> so i have to ask before i can be approved right! sooo - tell me who to ask.
[12:03] <LaserJock> no
[12:03] <LaserJock> you join the team in LP
[12:03] <nalioth> duncan_nz: type las<TAB>
[12:03] <duncan_nz> nalioth: aha!
[12:03] <nalioth> duncan_nz: or nal<tab>
[12:03] <duncan_nz> nalioth: cool!
[12:03] <LaserJock> and then the team owner/administrator will approve you
[12:03] <Burgundavia> duncan_nz: can you propose yourself?