/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/04/02/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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LaserJockhi theCore 01:10
theCorehey LaserJock01:11
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theCoreI'm working on the PG now, I'm supercharged ;P01:12
LaserJockgreat01:12
LaserJockwhat are you working on01:13
theCoreI'm doing exercises01:13
theCoreLaserJock: the deadline is this week, right?01:16
LaserJocktheCore: well, it is April 6th 01:22
LaserJocktheCore: but we need time for review01:22
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theCoreLaserJock: do you run Dapper?02:33
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LaserJocktheCore: actually for the most part I run OSX and Windows (on a laptop) but I ssh to my Dapper box and a sarge box that has a Dapper chroot02:36
theCoreokay, then you can't help me with my problem ... 02:38
theCorecan you ssh -X on OS X ?02:38
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theCoreLaserJock: basic.xml is becoming unmaintainable ...02:42
LaserJocktheCore: how so02:46
theCoreway too large02:47
theCorebut maybe it just me02:47
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LaserJocktheCore: well, hopefully we can split it up for Dapper+102:53
LaserJocktheCore: but I'd like to not be moving things around too much this late02:53
theCoreLaserJock: I would like a style convention for the XML too02:54
LaserJocktheCore: btw, yeas I can ssh -X on OSX (and most other *nixy things)02:54
theCoreLaserJock: then can launch Yelp? mine is broken02:54
LaserJocktheCore: how do you mean style convention?02:54
LaserJocktheCore: ah, I think mine is broken at the moment too02:55
LaserJockI've been using the HTML02:55
theCoreit doesn't display my doc menu02:56
theCore(not the side bar, but the main page) 02:56
theCorelike using a 2 space identation, instead of a tab02:57
LaserJockyou don't like tabs?02:58
theCorethey become really annoying after 5-6 02:59
theCoreand XML is heavily nested02:59
LaserJockwell, I use a 2 space tab so it looks fine to me02:59
theCorewhen I read the files in a console, I can't see half of the documents03:00
LaserJockhmmm03:01
theCorethe format of the <para> tag would need to be specified03:03
LaserJock?03:04
theCoreso we could distribute configuration file for auto-ident. in the major editor,03:05
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theCorevi/emacs/gedit don't indent DocBook file the same way03:06
LaserJockis that a problem?03:06
theCoreit's frustating to indent the XMLs manually because someone else use a different editor03:07
LaserJockwhy do you have to indent manually?03:11
theCorelet me show you an example03:16
theCorehm, maybe I'm wrong ...03:27
theCoreI can't reproduce the problem I had03:28
LaserJockhmm03:28
theCorethere black magic happening in my editors :P03:28
LaserJockI don't know. I could be totally messing things up. I'm really not used to using my text editor for editing text ;-)03:29
theCoreuh? what do you use?03:29
LaserJockI don't edit that much text03:29
theCorewhat about the guide?03:30
LaserJockthat is what I'm saying. That is the only large scale editing I've really done (at least that other people have seen)03:30
LaserJockbut if you can't reproduce it then I'm in the clear, for now ;-)03:32
theCoreI think I found it03:40
theCoreit is related with the line max width, 90 char03:41
LaserJockok03:41
LaserJockso is it my fault?03:44
theCoreI wouldn't say that until I found what is the real problem03:45
LaserJockok, I gotta get home. I'll be back in a while03:45
LaserJockbtw, I think my max line width is ~100 if I remember right03:45
jjesseis the latest desktop guide up on doc.ubuntu.com? 03:58
jjesseif not can we get it updated?03:59
jjessethe section on ripping audio cds needs to be changed03:59
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LaserJocktheCore: ok, I'm back :-)04:11
theCoreokay I found it04:12
theCorehttp://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/1095004:14
LaserJockok, so is that a problem?04:16
theCoretwo tag on the same line04:16
LaserJockwell, apparently you just need to use vim ;-)04:20
theCoreyeah, that's the problem04:37
theCoreI want to use Emacs04:41
theCoreI chosen Emacs, now I have to live with it04:42
theCoreI want to master one editor, not learning the usage of severals ones04:42
LaserJockwell, I'm trying to learn several so I can edit anywhere04:45
theCoreI know, how vi, emacs, notepad, gedit, kate works. But now, I want to master one of them, so I can be really efficient04:48
theCoreI don't know system where, there isn't one of theses editors04:50
theCores/know/know a/04:50
LaserJockI agree, that is where I'm at, except I think I'm going to do vim04:51
theCorehmm, it seem I can't reproduce the faulty behaviour, except in the PG ...04:57
theCoreit's probably the tab who I have to blame05:01
LaserJockhmm, odd05:10
theCoremixing tabs and spaces is a bad idea05:27
LaserJockhmm, so you are using spaces?05:29
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theCoreyes, like space better05:36
theCores/like/I like/05:36
LaserJockdoes it make it harder to reindent, etc.05:44
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theCorewell, it depend06:23
theCoreLaserJock: if the style convention is well defined, no06:24
theCoreLaserJock: but it is true that tab, can be converted to spaces easily06:25
theCoreLaserJock: just a quick `expand' and it's done06:25
LaserJocktheCore: what about going the other way around?06:32
theCorea mess if the spacing is not consitant06:33
theCorethe avantage of the spaces over the tabs is big: the source always looks the same and good.06:36
robotgeeki prefer tabs to spaces, but in python i prefer spaces to tabs06:41
robotgeekplus, the is this nice python script which tells you what to use in vim :)06:41
poningruI had a question why are the ubuntu-forums still telling people to use automatix?06:54
poningruerr wrong channel06:54
KyralDon't ask06:54
Kyralit will ignite a flamewar06:54
robotgeek*cough*06:55
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Kyraleh?06:58
LaserJockI wish I didn't know the existed sometimes ;-)06:58
Kyral?06:59
poningrumore chatting on this matter moved to #ubuntu-offtopic07:00
poningrusorry for the spam07:00
theCorerobotgeek: true, that's one reason why I prefer spaces to tabs, it's the standard for Python 07:07
LaserJockarghh, I think I started using tabs for Python :(07:08
robotgeekLaserJock: python standard recommends spaces, so there goes07:09
LaserJockhmmm07:10
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poningruhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications07:13
poningruwhat is that template?07:13
poningruanyone?07:18
dsasIt's probably just a 'normal' template with a table of contents added.07:22
poningrudsas: how do you make the template apear in the left part of the page?07:23
poningruerr07:23
poningruthe contents07:23
dsasThe content goes left by default, the table of contents goes right because of the <tablestyle="float:right; width:40%;"> bits07:25
poningruah ic07:26
poningruhmm I might stick with the right then07:26
poningruthanks07:26
dsasno problem07:27
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theCoreLaserJock: oh btw, I would say that you were right that vi is more portable editor07:37
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LaserJocktheCore: I always found that emacs is huge (and hence has lots of features) but it really is more than I need.07:39
robotgeekLaserJock: now you can get clippy in vim too07:40
robotgeekhttp://vigor.sourceforge.net/07:41
poningrurofl07:42
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LaserJockoh my gosh07:43
LaserJockrobotgeek: that is soooo bad07:43
poningruis it just me or does the wiki not say the license?07:43
robotgeeklooks like you are trying to write a regular expression. Do you need help? 07:44
poningrurofl07:44
poningrulooks like you are writing a suicide note. Do you need help?07:44
LaserJockponingru: license of what?07:45
poningruwhat the document is released under07:45
poningrufor example if you go to wikipedia all the articles are under the gfdl07:45
LaserJockponingru: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing07:46
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poningruah ic07:47
poningruso public domain?07:48
poningrueh07:48
LaserJocksomething like that07:48
poningruthat means I cant take from wikipedia07:48
poningrusince thats under gfdl07:48
poningruI wished we were compatible with something like that07:48
LaserJockhmm07:49
poningrucrap this sucks07:50
poningruI should bring this up in the next meeting or whatever07:50
LaserJockyou should mail the list07:50
dsasThe gfdl can be a non-free license depending on certain sub-clauses, I don't know what clauses etc wikimedia uses. 07:51
poningruwhat makes it non-free?07:52
robotgeekthe debian announcement was  mentioned on the list07:52
=== poningru searches
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robotgeekponingru: http://www.debian.org/News/2006/2006031607:53
dsassome gfdl documents have "unmodifiable sections" iirc07:53
theCoredsas: is it why the docteam doesn't support gfdl ?07:55
dsaswell, as far as I'm aware we've not made a ubuntu specific statement on it's freeness, but upstream has.07:55
poningruhmm07:55
poningruright but we are not taking docs from upstream for the wiki07:55
poningruwe cant07:55
poningrulegally that is07:55
LaserJocktheCore: all the doc team docs except for the Packaging Guide are GFDL/CC-SA07:56
dsaswhat's the packaging guide licensed as LaserJock?07:56
LaserJockGPL07:56
poningrubut the wiki...07:57
poningruis supposed to be public domain07:57
dsasponingru: Right, but I think Ubuntu share Debians outlook on what's free or what's not. Though I may be wrong.07:57
LaserJockyeah07:57
poningruagreed07:58
poningruerr I agree with debian regarding their ruling07:58
poningruand things like wikipedia generally do not allow unmodifiable portions07:58
LaserJockdsas: there are a few exceptions07:58
LaserJockdsas: gfdl wasn't considered free until recently07:58
dsasYeah, true. I wasn't around whenever the doc team decided on these things though, so I don't know the thought processes of doing so.08:01
LaserJockme neither really08:02
LaserJockI just had to do a little digging into it when I started the packaging guide08:03
poningruso why the exception for the wiki?08:04
LaserJockit isn't an exception08:04
LaserJockit was determined that it was basically Public Domain in practice08:04
LaserJockor something like that08:04
poningruwhy?08:04
poningruthat means I cant copy from anything08:04
LaserJockwell, because it is assumed that when you right a wiki you are giving it to the public domain08:05
poningrufrom wikipedia to kb.mozillazine.org to our own docs08:06
poningruwhy is that assumed?08:06
LaserJockbecause there wasn't any license08:06
LaserJockso we would have to go back and ask all the wiki page authors to agree to the GFDL08:06
poningruatleast in the US absence of a license mark means full copyright08:06
poningrunot zero copyright08:07
poningruand granted thats the dumbest thing in the world08:07
poningrubut still...08:07
dsasponingru: We're going to ask all former contributors whether or not it's ok.08:07
poningruum no08:07
poningruif its in the public domain we can fork it to anything we want08:07
KyralAll my things are under whatever you guys decide...and until then CC-BY-SA :P08:07
poningrusorry if I seem a little rude08:08
LaserJockponingru: no, I understand, but it isn't very clear cut08:08
dsasnot all of the info is in the public domain, the Wiki Licensing spec hasn't been fully implemented. So we need to get authors permission to put it in the Public Domain.08:09
poningruI think we should move it to the gfdl08:09
poningruthats just imho08:09
LaserJockdsas: I didn't think we were going to get authors permission for PD08:10
poningruyeah dont think that would happen08:10
robotgeekponingru: since the gfdl thing was non-free, we couldn't use it?08:11
poningrubut the rest of our docs are like that08:11
dsasLaserJock: from the WikiLicensing page "Prepare for the transition by attempting to obtain the consent of persons who have posted material on the wiki."08:11
poningruand its not non-free08:11
LaserJockdsas: I'm not sure if that is really the case. But my memory of the TB/CC meeting is pretty vague08:12
poningrutb?08:12
dsasponingru: Technical Board08:12
poningruah08:12
dsasLaserJock: I can't remember being in attendance, but that surprises me.08:12
LaserJockwell, I could be totally wrong08:15
LaserJockI just can't remember that well :(08:15
dsasI'm off to work anyway, good day all.08:17
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LaserJockponingru: I'd just email the list and ask about thinks like wikipedia, etc. I hadn't really thought about that before08:20
poningruk08:22
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mdkerobitaille, do you still have that problem with yelp?09:15
robitaillenot since I rebuild the database09:16
mdkegood09:16
robitailleHopefully it will be fine the next time I install from, scratch with Flight 609:18
mdkeis flight 6 out already?09:18
robotgeeknope09:19
mdkethen it should be fine :)09:19
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mdke:)09:19
mdkebhuvan, the presentation looks really nice. did you give it already?09:20
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mdkeafk09:31
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kbrookshi,.02:16
kbrookswhat's up?02:18
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: 31 March 2006, 2100UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda |
=== Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by Madpilot at Mon Mar 20 10:04:17 2006
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robotgeekhey LaserJock 07:34
LaserJockhi robotgeek 07:36
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mdkehello09:11
LaserJockhi mdke 09:12
mdkehiya LaserJock 09:12
mdkehow's it going?09:12
LaserJockwell, busy09:13
mdkeheh09:13
LaserJockI'm working on a quick (yeah right) packaging project09:14
BurgworkLaserJock, squeak?09:14
LaserJockyes09:14
Burgworkwant to do willow at the same time?09:14
LaserJockarggh ;-)09:14
LaserJockI want to finish the Packaging Guide09:15
mdkecareful, we need him for the packaging guide09:15
LaserJockanyway, a squeak dev came into -motu yesterday and said that squeak was unusable09:16
LaserJockso nice MOTU that I am I told him I'd look into it09:16
Burgworkdoesn't squeak have legal issues?09:18
LaserJockit is in multiverse09:19
LaserJockso yeah ;-)09:19
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robotgeektrappist: commited, changed version and recommitted 10:04
trappistchanged version?10:04
robotgeektrappist: 3.5.2 to 3.5.110:05
trappistoh 3.5.2 isn't in dapper?10:06
trappistwill it be?10:06
robotgeektrappist: maybe, maybe not10:07
trappistI see10:07
robotgeekjjesse: ping. done10:08
trappistis what's going on in #ubuntu-meeting an appropriate forum to nominate me as an ubuntu member?10:08
jjessewhat meeting is on ubuntu-meeting?10:09
robotgeekTB, so no10:09
trappistTB10:09
trappistdang.10:09
trappistwhen do I get to be a docteam member? ;)10:10
jjesseare you a member of the launchpad group is that what you are asking for?10:10
trappistthat's what I mean10:10
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