[01:10] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[01:11] <theCore> hey LaserJock
[01:12] <theCore> I'm working on the PG now, I'm supercharged ;P
[01:12] <LaserJock> great
[01:13] <LaserJock> what are you working on
[01:13] <theCore> I'm doing exercises
[01:16] <theCore> LaserJock: the deadline is this week, right?
[01:22] <LaserJock> theCore: well, it is April 6th 
[01:22] <LaserJock> theCore: but we need time for review
[02:33] <theCore> LaserJock: do you run Dapper?
[02:36] <LaserJock> theCore: actually for the most part I run OSX and Windows (on a laptop) but I ssh to my Dapper box and a sarge box that has a Dapper chroot
[02:38] <theCore> okay, then you can't help me with my problem ... 
[02:38] <theCore> can you ssh -X on OS X ?
[02:42] <theCore> LaserJock: basic.xml is becoming unmaintainable ...
[02:46] <LaserJock> theCore: how so
[02:47] <theCore> way too large
[02:47] <theCore> but maybe it just me
[02:53] <LaserJock> theCore: well, hopefully we can split it up for Dapper+1
[02:53] <LaserJock> theCore: but I'd like to not be moving things around too much this late
[02:54] <theCore> LaserJock: I would like a style convention for the XML too
[02:54] <LaserJock> theCore: btw, yeas I can ssh -X on OSX (and most other *nixy things)
[02:54] <theCore> LaserJock: then can launch Yelp? mine is broken
[02:54] <LaserJock> theCore: how do you mean style convention?
[02:55] <LaserJock> theCore: ah, I think mine is broken at the moment too
[02:55] <LaserJock> I've been using the HTML
[02:56] <theCore> it doesn't display my doc menu
[02:56] <theCore> (not the side bar, but the main page) 
[02:57] <theCore> like using a 2 space identation, instead of a tab
[02:58] <LaserJock> you don't like tabs?
[02:59] <theCore> they become really annoying after 5-6 
[02:59] <theCore> and XML is heavily nested
[02:59] <LaserJock> well, I use a 2 space tab so it looks fine to me
[03:00] <theCore> when I read the files in a console, I can't see half of the documents
[03:01] <LaserJock> hmmm
[03:03] <theCore> the format of the <para> tag would need to be specified
[03:04] <LaserJock> ?
[03:05] <theCore> so we could distribute configuration file for auto-ident. in the major editor,
[03:06] <theCore> vi/emacs/gedit don't indent DocBook file the same way
[03:06] <LaserJock> is that a problem?
[03:07] <theCore> it's frustating to indent the XMLs manually because someone else use a different editor
[03:11] <LaserJock> why do you have to indent manually?
[03:16] <theCore> let me show you an example
[03:27] <theCore> hm, maybe I'm wrong ...
[03:28] <theCore> I can't reproduce the problem I had
[03:28] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:28] <theCore> there black magic happening in my editors :P
[03:29] <LaserJock> I don't know. I could be totally messing things up. I'm really not used to using my text editor for editing text ;-)
[03:29] <theCore> uh? what do you use?
[03:29] <LaserJock> I don't edit that much text
[03:30] <theCore> what about the guide?
[03:30] <LaserJock> that is what I'm saying. That is the only large scale editing I've really done (at least that other people have seen)
[03:32] <LaserJock> but if you can't reproduce it then I'm in the clear, for now ;-)
[03:40] <theCore> I think I found it
[03:41] <theCore> it is related with the line max width, 90 char
[03:41] <LaserJock> ok
[03:44] <LaserJock> so is it my fault?
[03:45] <theCore> I wouldn't say that until I found what is the real problem
[03:45] <LaserJock> ok, I gotta get home. I'll be back in a while
[03:45] <LaserJock> btw, I think my max line width is ~100 if I remember right
[03:58] <jjesse> is the latest desktop guide up on doc.ubuntu.com? 
[03:59] <jjesse> if not can we get it updated?
[03:59] <jjesse> the section on ripping audio cds needs to be changed
[04:11] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, I'm back :-)
[04:12] <theCore> okay I found it
[04:14] <theCore> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10950
[04:16] <LaserJock> ok, so is that a problem?
[04:16] <theCore> two tag on the same line
[04:20] <LaserJock> well, apparently you just need to use vim ;-)
[04:37] <theCore> yeah, that's the problem
[04:41] <theCore> I want to use Emacs
[04:42] <theCore> I chosen Emacs, now I have to live with it
[04:42] <theCore> I want to master one editor, not learning the usage of severals ones
[04:45] <LaserJock> well, I'm trying to learn several so I can edit anywhere
[04:48] <theCore> I know, how vi, emacs, notepad, gedit, kate works. But now, I want to master one of them, so I can be really efficient
[04:50] <theCore> I don't know system where, there isn't one of theses editors
[04:50] <theCore> s/know/know a/
[04:51] <LaserJock> I agree, that is where I'm at, except I think I'm going to do vim
[04:57] <theCore> hmm, it seem I can't reproduce the faulty behaviour, except in the PG ...
[05:01] <theCore> it's probably the tab who I have to blame
[05:10] <LaserJock> hmm, odd
[05:27] <theCore> mixing tabs and spaces is a bad idea
[05:29] <LaserJock> hmm, so you are using spaces?
[05:36] <theCore> yes, like space better
[05:36] <theCore> s/like/I like/
[05:44] <LaserJock> does it make it harder to reindent, etc.
[06:23] <theCore> well, it depend
[06:24] <theCore> LaserJock: if the style convention is well defined, no
[06:25] <theCore> LaserJock: but it is true that tab, can be converted to spaces easily
[06:25] <theCore> LaserJock: just a quick `expand' and it's done
[06:32] <LaserJock> theCore: what about going the other way around?
[06:33] <theCore> a mess if the spacing is not consitant
[06:36] <theCore> the avantage of the spaces over the tabs is big: the source always looks the same and good.
[06:41] <robotgeek> i prefer tabs to spaces, but in python i prefer spaces to tabs
[06:41] <robotgeek> plus, the is this nice python script which tells you what to use in vim :)
[06:54] <poningru> I had a question why are the ubuntu-forums still telling people to use automatix?
[06:54] <poningru> err wrong channel
[06:54] <Kyral> Don't ask
[06:54] <Kyral> it will ignite a flamewar
[06:55] <robotgeek> *cough*
[06:58] <Kyral> eh?
[06:58] <LaserJock> I wish I didn't know the existed sometimes ;-)
[06:59] <Kyral> ?
[07:00] <poningru> more chatting on this matter moved to #ubuntu-offtopic
[07:00] <poningru> sorry for the spam
[07:07] <theCore> robotgeek: true, that's one reason why I prefer spaces to tabs, it's the standard for Python 
[07:08] <LaserJock> arghh, I think I started using tabs for Python :(
[07:09] <robotgeek> LaserJock: python standard recommends spaces, so there goes
[07:10] <LaserJock> hmmm
[07:13] <poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
[07:13] <poningru> what is that template?
[07:18] <poningru> anyone?
[07:22] <dsas> It's probably just a 'normal' template with a table of contents added.
[07:23] <poningru> dsas: how do you make the template apear in the left part of the page?
[07:23] <poningru> err
[07:23] <poningru> the contents
[07:25] <dsas> The content goes left by default, the table of contents goes right because of the <tablestyle="float:right; width:40%;"> bits
[07:26] <poningru> ah ic
[07:26] <poningru> hmm I might stick with the right then
[07:26] <poningru> thanks
[07:27] <dsas> no problem
[07:37] <theCore> LaserJock: oh btw, I would say that you were right that vi is more portable editor
[07:39] <LaserJock> theCore: I always found that emacs is huge (and hence has lots of features) but it really is more than I need.
[07:40] <robotgeek> LaserJock: now you can get clippy in vim too
[07:41] <robotgeek> http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
[07:42] <poningru> rofl
[07:43] <LaserJock> oh my gosh
[07:43] <LaserJock> robotgeek: that is soooo bad
[07:43] <poningru> is it just me or does the wiki not say the license?
[07:44] <robotgeek> looks like you are trying to write a regular expression. Do you need help? 
[07:44] <poningru> rofl
[07:44] <poningru> looks like you are writing a suicide note. Do you need help?
[07:45] <LaserJock> poningru: license of what?
[07:45] <poningru> what the document is released under
[07:45] <poningru> for example if you go to wikipedia all the articles are under the gfdl
[07:46] <LaserJock> poningru: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
[07:47] <poningru> ah ic
[07:48] <poningru> so public domain?
[07:48] <poningru> eh
[07:48] <LaserJock> something like that
[07:48] <poningru> that means I cant take from wikipedia
[07:48] <poningru> since thats under gfdl
[07:48] <poningru> I wished we were compatible with something like that
[07:49] <LaserJock> hmm
[07:50] <poningru> crap this sucks
[07:50] <poningru> I should bring this up in the next meeting or whatever
[07:50] <LaserJock> you should mail the list
[07:51] <dsas> The gfdl can be a non-free license depending on certain sub-clauses, I don't know what clauses etc wikimedia uses. 
[07:52] <poningru> what makes it non-free?
[07:52] <robotgeek> the debian announcement was  mentioned on the list
[07:53] <robotgeek> poningru: http://www.debian.org/News/2006/20060316
[07:53] <dsas> some gfdl documents have "unmodifiable sections" iirc
[07:55] <theCore> dsas: is it why the docteam doesn't support gfdl ?
[07:55] <dsas> well, as far as I'm aware we've not made a ubuntu specific statement on it's freeness, but upstream has.
[07:55] <poningru> hmm
[07:55] <poningru> right but we are not taking docs from upstream for the wiki
[07:55] <poningru> we cant
[07:55] <poningru> legally that is
[07:56] <LaserJock> theCore: all the doc team docs except for the Packaging Guide are GFDL/CC-SA
[07:56] <dsas> what's the packaging guide licensed as LaserJock?
[07:56] <LaserJock> GPL
[07:57] <poningru> but the wiki...
[07:57] <poningru> is supposed to be public domain
[07:57] <dsas> poningru: Right, but I think Ubuntu share Debians outlook on what's free or what's not. Though I may be wrong.
[07:57] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:58] <poningru> agreed
[07:58] <poningru> err I agree with debian regarding their ruling
[07:58] <poningru> and things like wikipedia generally do not allow unmodifiable portions
[07:58] <LaserJock> dsas: there are a few exceptions
[07:58] <LaserJock> dsas: gfdl wasn't considered free until recently
[08:01] <dsas> Yeah, true. I wasn't around whenever the doc team decided on these things though, so I don't know the thought processes of doing so.
[08:02] <LaserJock> me neither really
[08:03] <LaserJock> I just had to do a little digging into it when I started the packaging guide
[08:04] <poningru> so why the exception for the wiki?
[08:04] <LaserJock> it isn't an exception
[08:04] <LaserJock> it was determined that it was basically Public Domain in practice
[08:04] <LaserJock> or something like that
[08:04] <poningru> why?
[08:04] <poningru> that means I cant copy from anything
[08:05] <LaserJock> well, because it is assumed that when you right a wiki you are giving it to the public domain
[08:06] <poningru> from wikipedia to kb.mozillazine.org to our own docs
[08:06] <poningru> why is that assumed?
[08:06] <LaserJock> because there wasn't any license
[08:06] <LaserJock> so we would have to go back and ask all the wiki page authors to agree to the GFDL
[08:06] <poningru> atleast in the US absence of a license mark means full copyright
[08:07] <poningru> not zero copyright
[08:07] <poningru> and granted thats the dumbest thing in the world
[08:07] <poningru> but still...
[08:07] <dsas> poningru: We're going to ask all former contributors whether or not it's ok.
[08:07] <poningru> um no
[08:07] <poningru> if its in the public domain we can fork it to anything we want
[08:07] <Kyral> All my things are under whatever you guys decide...and until then CC-BY-SA :P
[08:08] <poningru> sorry if I seem a little rude
[08:08] <LaserJock> poningru: no, I understand, but it isn't very clear cut
[08:09] <dsas> not all of the info is in the public domain, the Wiki Licensing spec hasn't been fully implemented. So we need to get authors permission to put it in the Public Domain.
[08:09] <poningru> I think we should move it to the gfdl
[08:09] <poningru> thats just imho
[08:10] <LaserJock> dsas: I didn't think we were going to get authors permission for PD
[08:10] <poningru> yeah dont think that would happen
[08:11] <robotgeek> poningru: since the gfdl thing was non-free, we couldn't use it?
[08:11] <poningru> but the rest of our docs are like that
[08:11] <dsas> LaserJock: from the WikiLicensing page "Prepare for the transition by attempting to obtain the consent of persons who have posted material on the wiki."
[08:11] <poningru> and its not non-free
[08:12] <LaserJock> dsas: I'm not sure if that is really the case. But my memory of the TB/CC meeting is pretty vague
[08:12] <poningru> tb?
[08:12] <dsas> poningru: Technical Board
[08:12] <poningru> ah
[08:12] <dsas> LaserJock: I can't remember being in attendance, but that surprises me.
[08:15] <LaserJock> well, I could be totally wrong
[08:15] <LaserJock> I just can't remember that well :(
[08:17] <dsas> I'm off to work anyway, good day all.
[08:20] <LaserJock> poningru: I'd just email the list and ask about thinks like wikipedia, etc. I hadn't really thought about that before
[08:22] <poningru> k
[09:15] <mdke> robitaille, do you still have that problem with yelp?
[09:16] <robitaille> not since I rebuild the database
[09:16] <mdke> good
[09:18] <robitaille> Hopefully it will be fine the next time I install from, scratch with Flight 6
[09:18] <mdke> is flight 6 out already?
[09:19] <robotgeek> nope
[09:19] <mdke> then it should be fine :)
[09:19] <mdke> :)
[09:20] <mdke> bhuvan, the presentation looks really nice. did you give it already?
[09:31] <mdke> afk
[02:16] <kbrooks> hi,.
[02:18] <kbrooks> what's up?
[07:34] <robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
[07:36] <LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
[09:11] <mdke> hello
[09:12] <LaserJock> hi mdke 
[09:12] <mdke> hiya LaserJock 
[09:12] <mdke> how's it going?
[09:13] <LaserJock> well, busy
[09:13] <mdke> heh
[09:14] <LaserJock> I'm working on a quick (yeah right) packaging project
[09:14] <Burgwork> LaserJock, squeak?
[09:14] <LaserJock> yes
[09:14] <Burgwork> want to do willow at the same time?
[09:14] <LaserJock> arggh ;-)
[09:15] <LaserJock> I want to finish the Packaging Guide
[09:15] <mdke> careful, we need him for the packaging guide
[09:16] <LaserJock> anyway, a squeak dev came into -motu yesterday and said that squeak was unusable
[09:16] <LaserJock> so nice MOTU that I am I told him I'd look into it
[09:18] <Burgwork> doesn't squeak have legal issues?
[09:19] <LaserJock> it is in multiverse
[09:19] <LaserJock> so yeah ;-)
[10:04] <robotgeek> trappist: commited, changed version and recommitted 
[10:04] <trappist> changed version?
[10:05] <robotgeek> trappist: 3.5.2 to 3.5.1
[10:06] <trappist> oh 3.5.2 isn't in dapper?
[10:06] <trappist> will it be?
[10:07] <robotgeek> trappist: maybe, maybe not
[10:07] <trappist> I see
[10:08] <robotgeek> jjesse: ping. done
[10:08] <trappist> is what's going on in #ubuntu-meeting an appropriate forum to nominate me as an ubuntu member?
[10:09] <jjesse> what meeting is on ubuntu-meeting?
[10:09] <robotgeek> TB, so no
[10:09] <trappist> TB
[10:09] <trappist> dang.
[10:10] <trappist> when do I get to be a docteam member? ;)
[10:10] <jjesse> are you a member of the launchpad group is that what you are asking for?
[10:10] <trappist> that's what I mean