[01:58] <highvoltage> 2 minutes to meeting!
[02:00] <JaneW> hi
[02:00] <pips1> hello all
[02:00] <JaneW> ogra: it going to be out today?
[02:01] <ogra> looks like
[02:01] <ogra> latest tomorrow
[02:01] <ogra> depends which kind of bugs we'll find testing it
[02:02] <flint> good morning campers...
[02:03] <highvoltage> hi mr flint 
[02:03] <flint> kjcole, is this the right channel?  it is 07:03 and I hav not pissed anyone off yet!
[02:03] <flint> highvoltage, good morning jonathan!!
[02:04] <highvoltage> yay! only one h!
[02:04] <kjcole> flint, shhh.  I'm pretending to still be blissfully asleep.
[02:04] <jelkner> flint: call me back, i didn't get to tell you about the next hack yet
[02:04] <flint> highvoltage, remember what i always say jonathan, there is only one "I" in idiot...
[02:05] <highvoltage> who's here and who's not?
[02:05] <flint> :^)
[02:05] <jelkner> ogra: did you see my bablings on #edubuntu yesterday?
[02:05] <highvoltage> :)
[02:05] <JaneW> ok we have a silent ogra
[02:05] <JaneW> preparing edubuntu flight 6
[02:05] <ogra> JaneW, s/silent/busy/
[02:05] <ogra> :)
[02:06] <JaneW> ogra: is edubuntu dapper basically done now?
[02:06] <ogra> JaneW, apart from artwork and CD pressing i think so ...
[02:06] <JaneW> ogra: excellent, thanks and WELL DONE
[02:06] <ogra> thats also my tech update ... :) 
[02:06] <JaneW> way ahead of the original schedule even
[02:06] <highvoltage> wow, that was a short tech update! :)
[02:06] <ogra> new and improved artwork package, flight-6 preparation 
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra: you showing off your artwork in flight 6?
[02:07] <ogra> yep
[02:07] <ogra> thats why i have to rebuild it currently ...
[02:07] <highvoltage> ogra: Bluekuja and I will rally up some testers, we also want to work with you to create a kind of a standard testing feedback form/checklist
[02:07] <JaneW> wow
[02:07] <ogra> kde was rebuuilt yesterdayx, so kdeedu was broken
[02:07] <JaneW> the cookbook meeting is tomorrow
[02:07] <ogra> yep
[02:07] <kjcole> ogra, so is Flight 6 = final?  or even > final (Dapper+1)?  
[02:08] <JaneW> kjcole and jelkner will you be attending that? ^^
[02:08] <ogra> kjcole, final is june 1st 
[02:08] <ogra> or a week before that date
[02:08] <JaneW> kjcole: not dapper +1, we are still working on Dapper!
[02:08] <ogra> there will still be many flights
[02:08] <kjcole> janew, though I doubt I'll have much to say, I plan to be there.
[02:08] <jelkner> JaneW: already on it!
[02:08] <highvoltage> JaneW: but ogra said we can have dapper+1 on june 1 :(
[02:08] <JaneW> kjcole: but we are down to QA and bug fixing mostly now, so no MAJOR changes now
[02:08] <ogra> :P
[02:09] <JaneW> highvoltage: dream on
[02:09] <JaneW> although at this rate ogra could do it
[02:09] <ogra> we'll surely get docs in as much as we can before release
[02:09] <jelkner> JaneW: i'm in the process of upgrading our existing labs to Dapper
[02:09] <ogra> oh, and we had a squeak bughunt yesterday
[02:09] <JaneW> jelkner: great, how's it going?
[02:09] <jelkner> early indication is that is works *much* better
[02:09] <JaneW> ogra: good, and?
[02:09] <ogra> so squeak will work as expected by the squeak community
[02:09] <kjcole> janew, I was curious if "edubuntu dapper is basically done now" what flight 6 was if not final 
[02:09] <JaneW> jelkner: awesome!
[02:09] <ogra> (which it apparently didnt in breezy)
[02:09] <jelkner> the little bugs that used to appear (such as log in failing) are gone
[02:10] <highvoltage> kjcole: it needs testing and bug fixing, it's feature-complete, though
[02:10] <jelkner> it boots faster, logs in faster
[02:10] <jelkner> looks better
[02:10] <ogra> :)
[02:10] <JaneW> kjcole: we have a set release date with the rest of Dapper, the delay is for extensive localisation work and MAJOR QA and bug fixing
[02:10] <kjcole> janew, ogra ah.  I see.
[02:10] <jelkner> what's not to love!
[02:10] <ogra> great to hear that from you jelkner :)
[02:10] <JaneW> jelkner: get yourself quoted in the press again
[02:11] <ogra> s/not/note/
[02:11] <flint> ogra, LDA is local storage eh?
[02:11] <highvoltage> so. can i say a few words on some edubuntu community ideas?
[02:11] <highvoltage> or are we still on tech?
[02:11] <jelkner> ogra: yes, we will need that, but for now, flint is working on a hack solution
[02:12] <ogra> flint, exactly
[02:12] <ogra> jelkner, we'll get all the stuff from ltsp.org into universe 
[02:12] <kjcole> ogra, you KNOW he won't be pleased enough, and will just want more. ;-)
[02:12] <ogra> (for dapper and if mdz doesnt deny it indeed :) )
[02:12] <highvoltage> kjcole: and that's why we love him
[02:13] <highvoltage> *ahem*
[02:13] <jelkner> ogra: i have a question about the new features such as watch teacher, etc.
[02:13] <ogra> jelkner, watch teacher ? 
[02:13] <jelkner> does herman know how they work, and will he be able to get them in the cookbook?
[02:14] <jelkner> the thing you showed me at below zero that allows teachers to view the processes of students
[02:14] <ogra> ah
[02:14] <jelkner> and to share their desktops with students
[02:14] <ogra> the student-control-panel ....
[02:14] <jelkner> yes
[02:14] <jelkner> where is that?
[02:14] <ogra> sharing isnt implemented for dapper 
[02:14] <ogra> in universe 
[02:14] <jelkner> ah
[02:14] <jelkner> thanks!
[02:15] <ogra> it currently gives you only control to see students and kick them off 
[02:15] <flint> ogra, ollie, is language switching included or includable into the student control panel?
[02:15] <ogra> but in #ltsp several intrested people showed up that want to write extensions and patches
[02:15] <ogra> flint, nope, since it should be done with the language selector ...
[02:16] <ogra> its completely unrelated to s-c-p
[02:16] <flint> ogra, the language selector is run from the student console.  this is not right for a classroom
[02:16] <ogra> flint, the language selector is the tool we use in ubuntu for language selection 
[02:16] <kjcole> flint, jelkner I might be blind, but I just noticed language-selector showing up in synaptic a few days ago...
[02:16] <flint> ogra, thus the student controls the language.  the teacher needs control.
[02:17] <ogra> flint, about the language ?
[02:17] <ogra> what for ? 
[02:17] <jelkner> ogra: absolute beginners shouldn't have to set anything
[02:17] <ogra> kjcole, its installed by default since breezy on every ubuntu/edubuntu desktop ...
[02:17] <jelkner> i need to preset it for them
[02:18] <ogra> jelkner, yes, so use the language selector to do that :)
[02:18] <jelkner> ok
[02:18] <kjcole> ogra, has it been in dapper long?  (That's where I remember seeing it show up.)
[02:18] <ogra> if it doesnt work as expected, file a bug against language selector 
[02:18] <ogra> kjcole, it has been there since breezy ...
[02:19] <flint> ogra, i will take a look at the new language selector in dapper.
[02:19] <ogra> flint, its not new :)
[02:19] <kjcole> ogra, so, I am blind. ;-) 
[02:19] <flint> ogra, if it is the old one, then it does not do the job required by elkner.
[02:20] <flint> ogra, we got a hack that does the job. no problem
[02:20] <ogra> flint, see above
[02:20] <ogra> hacks are not the solution ...
[02:20] <jelkner> i'm a bit behind in preparing for today's classes, i need to run
[02:20] <flint> ogra, gotcha, but hacks are a step towards a solution.
[02:20] <jelkner> great work on dapper!  it rocks!
[02:21] <ogra> if you had filed that wehne we discussed it (i remember telling jelkner to use the language selector after UBZ in #edubuntu) it would be fixed now
[02:21] <flint> ogra, he only told me about it two weeks ago.  I found it an interesting problem, build a solution and posted it.  
[02:22] <pips1> ogra, do you know of any new/extra feature that made it into dapper "unexpectedly", because of the delay? or none? (I know the delay wasn't for adding features, but still... :-) )
[02:22] <ogra> flint, try to improve what we have to work right is the way we do it in ubuntu :)
[02:22] <flint> ogra, you know about the interesting problem problem.
[02:22] <ogra> pips1, nope 
[02:22] <ogra> apart from network manager WPA support 
[02:22] <pips1> right
[02:23] <ogra> (i never undestood who needs that anyway, but people cry for it)
[02:23] <flint> ogra, what is WPA support? (early no coffee:^)
[02:24] <JaneW> same as last time  you asked flint :P
[02:24] <highvoltage> hehe
[02:24] <ogra> flint, some weird encryption stuff for wireless
[02:24] <JaneW> wireless protocol authenication support
[02:24] <ogra> the next generation WEP :)
[02:24] <flint> JaneW, I had coffee last time I asked...
[02:24] <JaneW> flint: ah, valid point :)
[02:24] <ogra> i have never used it and dont know *anybody* who does personally ...
[02:24] <flint> ogra, why do we care about wireless support in Edubuntu?
[02:25] <ogra> but users scream for it, so thats our exception of the "no new features" rule
[02:25] <ogra> flint, because we support it 
[02:25] <flint> ogra, you are just pulling my leg  he he...
[02:26] <flint> ogra, Ollie, if there was ever a need for the exception to the "no new features" rule it is LDA...
[02:27] <flint> ogra, Hacking is a time honored form of civil disobedience.  in this case my hacking is adversarial with the "ubuntu way" but it remains a protest.
[02:27] <ogra> flint, nope ... NM and WPA is existent LDA would have to be developed
[02:27] <flint> ogra, ok i should try to develop it.  bash here i come!!!
[02:27] <flint> :^)
[02:27] <ogra> flint, it will happen for dapper+1 
[02:28] <flint> ogra, any idea how and who?
[02:28] <ogra> and i'm pretty happy to have the ltsp LDA implementation at this time to find the drawbacks and improve it for us ...
[02:28] <kjcole> flint, your distro can be "Lame Duck" to differentiate it from "Dapper Drake". ;-)
[02:28] <ogra> flint, likely me 
[02:28] <flint> kjcole, I even have the graphic!!! ask Jane
[02:29] <ogra> flint, and through scripted commands, magic and rocket science (to answer the how)
[02:29] <flint> ogra, if it is likely you, and you can tolerate my "help" i would be honored to help you.
[02:29] <ogra> any other tech questions ? 
[02:30] <flint> :^)
[02:30] <ogra> flint, appreciated ! :)
[02:30] <ogra> i'm not yet sure if i want to go the ltsp.org path, we might end up with something completely different 
[02:30] <pips1> who wouldn't remember http://www.flint.com/wvus ? ;-)
[02:31] <ogra> but thats stuff for the conference and BOFs
[02:31] <flint> pips1, I have a great affection for that duck which is spilling over to you. :^)
[02:31] <pips1> flint, indeed
[02:32] <flint> lol...
[02:32] <pips1> :-)
[02:32] <pips1> highvoltage ?
[02:33] <pips1> "highvoltage: so. can i say a few words on some edubuntu community ideas?"
[02:33] <highvoltage> is it our turn now?
[02:34] <flint> ogra, final stoopid question. is flight 6 in the daily build queue?
[02:34] <highvoltage> oh, yes.
[02:34] <highvoltage> I've been chatting to Bluekaja, young guy from Italy
[02:34] <highvoltage> his real name is Andrea Veri
[02:34] <ogra> flint, not yet ... the isos wait for a new network manager package to be finished
[02:34] <highvoltage> he's very excited and enthusiastic about ubuntu and edubuntu
[02:34] <ogra> flint, but the daily that comes today will be flight6
[02:35] <highvoltage> and he's doing lots of advocacy work in italy, talking to educators in schools close by.
[02:35] <flint> ogra, congratulations
[02:35] <kjcole> highvoltage, pips1 is this re the CC agenda about Edubuntu LoCo's?
[02:35] <ogra> flint, thanks, kepp testing ;)
[02:35] <highvoltage> he wants to start an edubuntu loco team, and we'll have to put some thinking in that
[02:35] <ogra> *keep even
[02:35] <highvoltage> kjcole: yes
[02:35] <highvoltage> kjcole: i put it in the agenda of the next CC meeting
[02:36] <flint> highvoltage, jonathan this is a good idea.
[02:36] <highvoltage> there are some options, such as, should it be an ubuntu loco with an educational focus, or should people be allowed to create an edubuntu specific loco
[02:36] <olive> Hello. Is there a schedule for conference packs of Dapper ?
[02:36] <highvoltage> i have views on both, but i suppose it's a CC decision? how does the rest of the edubuntu community feel about it?
[02:37] <kjcole> highvoltage, I recall that CC meeting is at an impossible hour for me, but would like to voice support for it.
[02:37] <highvoltage> kjcole: sure, i could forward it for you, if you like
[02:37] <ogra> olive, this is a meeting channel, a meeting is going on
[02:37] <olive> sorry, bad channel.
[02:37] <ogra> :)
[02:37] <olive> :s
[02:38] <highvoltage> seems not :)
[02:38] <highvoltage> the Ubuntu CC meeting is on 3 April
[02:38] <highvoltage> at 9:00 UTC
[02:39] <highvoltage> that's the loco team issue.
[02:39] <ogra> eek, middle of the night
[02:39] <pips1> highvoltage, Bluekaja is from Italy... is there already a Italian LoCo? I assume so... highvoltage, what are your views on having an edubuntu LoCo?
[02:39] <flint> highvoltage, your option proposition may need to be considered by the CC eh?
[02:39] <highvoltage> pips1: yes, there's an italian loco. i think that an additional edubuntu loco would be useful, since the italian loco might already have its goals.
[02:39] <highvoltage> flint: yes.
[02:40] <highvoltage> JaneW/ogra: do you have any strong feeling either way?
[02:40] <pips1> hmm... so you mean the goals might not overlap enough?
[02:41] <JaneW> highvoltage: I don;t have strong feelings
[02:41] <kjcole> highvoltage, sure forward my support.  When advertising our loco I describe it as one with an educational focus, as I think that is sufficient, but if there was more specific swag and/or official literature for a more specific kind of LoCo that would be great!
[02:41] <flint> pips1, the goals of an ubuntu loco and edubuntu loco are clearly different.  you have a point.
[02:41] <JaneW> but we must be careful not to fragment our group too much
[02:41] <highvoltage> pips1: there'll probably be *some* overlap, perhaps with some cases, there might be a lot of overlap, and then they could merge
[02:41] <JaneW> results in duplication of effort and diluted support capacity
[02:41] <ogra> i know the german ubuntuforums.de has a edubuntu section ...
[02:41] <highvoltage> in some cases, it might be better to have the edubuntu loco as part of the bigger loco
[02:42] <highvoltage> but i think it's important to have some guidelines set in place
[02:42] <flint> ogra, the germans are known to be organized :^)
[02:42] <ogra> heh, true
[02:42] <highvoltage> otherwise people start all kinds of locos all over the place and effort gets wasted
[02:42] <flint> ogra, comparing italians and germans...
[02:42] <flint> :^)
[02:42] <highvoltage> i'll post about this to the list too, and we could get some wider feedback there too, before going to CC
[02:42] <highvoltage> then there's some other community stuffies...
[02:43] <ogra> the french community also does its own thing since a while 
[02:43] <flint> ogra, ....but those not the kind of clutural differences we need to dwell upon, the difference between hackers and educators is the nub of this one...
[02:43] <highvoltage> i've reeled bluekaja in to help us with our launchpad groups too, there's quite a bunch now and they're not very organised :/
[02:43] <highvoltage> here's a list of them:
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu: (24 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Advocacy: (2 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Artwork: (12 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubunut Brasil: (8 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Cookbook Cooks: (11 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Documentation: (11 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Testers: (2 members)
[02:43] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Website: (9 members)
[02:44] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Chile: (8 members)
[02:44] <highvoltage> Edubuntu Study Content: (7 members)
[02:44] <ogra> we have a testers team ? 
[02:44] <ogra> why dont i know about that 
[02:44] <highvoltage> brasil and chile are okay, because they are self managed. website is also ok, because pips and i will get the community involved when drupal is set up.
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra: we don't really have a testers team yet
[02:44] <ogra> 2 members 
[02:45] <pips1> I also agree that overly fragmenting might not be that good... especially if the community is small. on the other hand, being able to make your own decisions will help volunteers to thrive on their enthusiasm :-)
[02:45] <flint> highvoltage, I wanna be on the testers team can i, can i?
[02:45] <highvoltage> ogra: yes, bluekaja and I are starting a testers team, i told you about that earlier in this meeting?
[02:45] <highvoltage> flint: of course
[02:45] <flint> highvoltage, thanks!
[02:45] <ogra> highvoltage, 3 members
[02:45] <highvoltage> bluekaja will help organise these groups, bit by bit
[02:46] <highvoltage> we're planning to start rallying for testers in about two weeks, although we won't stop it from happening earlier, if it does happen to happen or if someone else wants to step up
[02:46] <highvoltage> what's perhaps a bit more important right now, is sorting out some of our existing groups, such as documentation, edubuntu (main), etc.
[02:46] <flint> highvoltage, testers need to be busy testing...
[02:47] <pips1> it would be helpfull to have a edubuntu-specific testing plan...
[02:47] <highvoltage> perhaps we need to get the members of Edubuntu in the subgroups they're interested in, and subscribe those groups to Edubuntu instead.
[02:47] <highvoltage> pips1: yep
[02:47] <flint> pips1, yes it would... and that is another good idea that came out of this meeting...
[02:47] <ogra> you can just flllow the standard ubuntu plan ... 
[02:47] <ogra> apart from testing ltsp ...
[02:47] <highvoltage> ogra: does that include some ltsp...
[02:47] <highvoltage> oh.
[02:47] <flint> ogra, you got a url for this test plan?
[02:48] <ogra> its on the wiki somewhere
[02:48] <flint> ogra, lol...
[02:48] <highvoltage> i think we can make some additional tests for things we know are edubuntu specific, like testing for gcompris gremlins, that schooltool runs nicely, etc, etc
[02:48] <pips1> Testing/Long and Testing/Short
[02:49] <flint> i propose that the first thing the edubuntu test group do is to find the silly ubuntu test plan eh?
[02:49] <highvoltage> flint: good idea. noted.
[02:49] <highvoltage> so that's some plans in the edubuntu community, i think we can expand on that at next week's meeting, this one is running out a bit.
[02:50] <ogra> yep
[02:50] <pips1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Short
[02:50] <highvoltage> on the edubuntu drupal website, pip1 and i have been experimenting with some off-line modules
[02:50] <pips1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Long
[02:50] <highvoltage> we're having a 'sprint' to get a lot of the work done over the weekend, by monday a very large part of the website will be done
[02:51] <highvoltage> from there it should mostly be fine-tuning until we go live.
[02:51] <ogra> note that we should only have the basic stuff for ltsp testing required ... 
[02:51] <flint> pips1, excellent you are something else!  how do you do this?  the king of bookmarks!!!
[02:51] <highvoltage> ogra: noted
[02:51] <pips1> hehe
[02:51] <ogra> i.e. enabling sound requires a lts.conf, do we want to bother rthe user with that ?
[02:52] <highvoltage> ogra: we can mark it as an optional test
[02:52] <ogra> yep
[02:52] <highvoltage> i think testing functions in lts.conf is very important
[02:52] <highvoltage> we could make that a test of its own.
[02:52] <ogra> the default should only require editing /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf, restarting dhcpd and testing if clients boot and let you in
[02:52] <highvoltage> i'm sure people like jelkner, flint, etc, wouldn't mind providing feedback on something that's a bit technical
[02:53] <pips1> what about testing the education apps? list it too? 
[02:53] <ogra> sure
[02:53] <highvoltage> i think we should put a lot of focus on everything that's edubuntu specific
[02:53] <ogra> yep
[02:53] <flint> highvoltage, testing from a plan is so organized it is practically Teutonic! :^)
[02:53] <highvoltage> the rest of the ubuntu stuff should be safe to assume OK, but users could of course test other things too, nothing wrong with being thorrow with testing
[02:54] <highvoltage> flint: we'll put in a field called "Other:"
[02:54] <highvoltage> :)
[02:54] <ogra> put in a field called Flint:
[02:54] <ogra> ;)
[02:54] <flint> highvoltage, do not count on elkner as a tester in this sense.  he tests at another level...
[02:55] <highvoltage> hehe
[02:55] <flint> ogra, be careful what you wish for he he 
[02:55] <ogra> heh
[02:56] <flint> this is very good.  the only downer is i went and got a job at a local php house... i needed the money.  so my time will be a little limited.
[02:56] <highvoltage> ogra: i just wanted to say, i didn't purposely exclude you from any testing team, i just created the team on launchpad when i had the idea the other night, and bluekaja just happened to find it and join it
[02:57] <pips1> ogra, I feel those two testing guidelines in the wiki (cf. above) are good for "average" Desktop users... do you know of additional, more "technical" testing guidelines? what about testing hardware compatability, server stuff, etc.?
[02:57] <ogra> highvoltage, i dont feel left out, dont worry :)
[02:57] <flint> highvoltage, properly and with deverence to Oliver, he needs to be excluded.  but that is his option...
[02:58] <ogra> pips1, if the tests from the wiki work , your HW will be working fine ...
[02:58] <pips1> right
[02:58] <ogra> i dont theink we need special testing for that 
[02:59] <flint> the real fun comes when you automate the testing... any ideas on that Olli?
[02:59] <ogra> apart from schooltool and ltsp ...
[02:59] <highvoltage> is schoolbell still seperate from schooltool?
[02:59] <ogra> flint, nope, but someone works on that, it was a BOF and spec 
[02:59] <ogra> highvoltage, yep
[02:59] <flint> ogra, interesting...
[02:59] <flint> highvoltage, both schoolbell and schooltool are zope3 thingies...
[02:59] <ogra> i think diziet 
[03:00] <ogra> so any other business ? 
[03:01] <ogra> JaneW, ?
[03:01] <flint> i am not gonna ask pips1 to dig up the auto testing spec, as my cup runneth over with the effort he has already made...
[03:01] <ogra> wanna tell us about CDs ?
[03:02] <pips1> I believe the "schooltool 2006" major release has been delayed, the update that went into dapper is a minor update. for those interested in schooltool development status, seehttp://lists.schooltool.org/pipermail/schooltool/2006-March/001910.html 
[03:02] <ogra> pips1, its not *minor* :)
[03:02] <ogra> they switched to zope3 
[03:02] <ogra> its pretty major ...
[03:02] <pips1> oh, so that change made it to dapper!
[03:02] <ogra> and i guess that bound their ressources
[03:03] <ogra> there is noting changed apart from zope3 being the base ... 
[03:03] <ogra> no new features etc
[03:04] <ogra> so seems JaneW is gone and we are done ...
[03:04] <ogra> adjourned ? 
[03:04] <kjcole> Ogra +1
[03:05] <JaneW> sorry I am here
[03:05] <ogra> ok, lets all move back to #edubuntu, thanks for attending 
[03:05] <JaneW> had some lag for a while
[03:05] <ogra> ah
[03:05] <JaneW> thanks all
[03:05] <pips1> ok, see you in #edubuntu
[03:05] <kjcole> Adios (off to "work")
[03:05] <nomed> hi all
[03:06] <janimo> hi
[03:07] <janimo> not much on today's agenda
[03:07] <nomed> janimo, yep ..
[03:08] <janimo> we'll improvise :)
[03:08] <nomed> what about xubuntu burner ?
[03:08] <janimo> so re tango I did not yet get an answer from daniel
[03:08] <janimo> nomed, I thin it is graveman for dapper
[03:08] <nomed> i know he's waitin too :)
[03:08] <janimo> xfburn ha a nicer interface it's just incomplete
[03:09] <nomed> janimo, i've seen some new app at gnomefiles ..
[03:09] <nomed> but i should test them .. and i'm not sure they 're better then graveman ..
[03:10] <janimo> nomed, I think we should be cautios this late
[03:10] <janimo> especially with non packaged stuff
[03:10] <nomed> janimo, i know :)
[03:10] <janimo> I did not much try various burners
[03:10] <janimo> nooone likes frying CDs I guess so that's why they ar enot much tested :)
[03:10] <janimo> I like xfburn's DnD
[03:10] <ogra> janimo, are you aware that you will cripple graveman a lot if you pull it to main (i.e. mp3 burning etc) thats the reason we decided to not pull it in back at UDU
[03:10] <janimo> but since the author is busy with school
[03:11] <janimo> it is dapper+1
[03:11] <janimo> ogra, had no idea
[03:11] <janimo> ogra, thanks for the tip
[03:11] <ogra> janimo, users wont be happy ...
[03:11] <janimo> I thought it was 'just' a burner
[03:11] <janimo> in this case we do not
[03:11] <ogra> it uses backend software 
[03:11] <janimo> I am not cripppling anything, don't listen to seb ;)
[03:12] <janimo> not intentionally at least
[03:12] <ogra> i.e. to burn an mp3 it neerds to be converted 
[03:12] <janimo> ogra, so it has internal mp3 stuff?
[03:12] <janimo> or does it call other packages. which are optional
[03:12] <ogra> i think you could use serpentine just fine for audio CDs ...
[03:12] <janimo> and hence can remain in universe
[03:12] <ogra> nope, it hasnt
[03:12] <janimo> is serp gnome dependent?
[03:13] <ogra> its pygtk, not sure if it needs gnome as well 
[03:13] <janimo> yes. and gstreamer dependent
[03:13] <ogra> yep
[03:13] <janimo> gnome-python-extras
[03:13] <janimo> which comes with all gnome libs
[03:13] <ogra> it uses all the gstreamer pipelines to convert
[03:14] <janimo> ogra, so you considered graveman at UDU?
[03:14] <janimo> for what? edubuntu?
[03:14] <ogra> nope, at UDU there was no edubuntu :)
[03:14] <ogra> i had to care for the "audio cd burning" spec
[03:15] <janimo> ogra, form what I see it depends on libmad for mp3
[03:15] <janimo> whic is in main
[03:15] <janimo> so it would mean crippling if it had to be shipped right?
[03:15] <ogra> which will get dropped before release
[03:15] <janimo> is it? ok
[03:16] <janimo> do you know if xmms too ?
[03:16] <ogra> thats what pitti told me at least
[03:16] <ogra> all gtk1 apps should be gone already...
[03:16] <ogra> is xmms still there ? 
[03:16] <janimo> they are not apparently
[03:16] <ogra> strange 
[03:17] <ogra> i know it was on the list ... i think pitti cared for it, poke him
[03:18] <janimo> libmad does not dep on gtk1.2 why is it slated for demotion
[03:18] <janimo> bc patent issues affect only shippability not main-ness. or not?
[03:19] <janimo> nomed, see imporvised meeting ;)
[03:19] <nomed> ehehe
[03:20] <janimo> ogra, see in dev what tseng says
[03:20] <janimo> kde holds a ref on libmad, cannot go :)
[03:21] <ogra> yup, saw it ...
[03:21] <ogra> but i'm not sure thats final ...
[03:22] <janimo> ok
[03:22] <ogra> because i'm sure nobody wants to ship libmad in our enterprise release if possible
[03:23] <janimo> ok. we'll see about graveman then. but we won't modify it.
[03:23] <nomed> janimo, about plugins to remove ..
[03:23] <janimo> let alone cripple it
[03:24] <janimo> nomed, yes last time I gave kamion a list
[03:24] <nomed> i'm waitin upstreamer .. but ..
[03:24] <nomed> ahh perfect
[03:24] <janimo> some of them were removed (toys, old xfdesktop) some not
[03:24] <janimo> I may have given an incomplete list
[03:24] <nomed> i was saying .. the ones that are already within xfce4-panel
[03:24] <nomed> can be removed for sure ..
[03:24] <janimo> will reping him (showdesktop, windowlist, panel-menu)
[03:24] <janimo> anything else later if not ported
[03:27] <nomed> janimo, i think there isn't that much to say untill we'll not test the isos ..
[03:27] <janimo> right
[03:27] <janimo> so anything else that needs discussion
[03:28] <nomed> i think so
[03:28] <nomed> hi sivang 
[03:28] <sivang> hey nomed :)
[03:30] <sivang> ah, Xubuntu meeting is in 30 minutes
[03:30] <sivang> cool
[03:30] <Seveas> sivang, 90 minutes
[03:30] <Seveas> @schedule amsterdam
[03:30] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 29 Mar 16:00: Xubuntu | 30 Mar 04:00: Dapper Development Status | 30 Mar 18:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 31 Mar 23:00: Documentation Team | 03 Apr 11:00: Community Council
[03:30] <janimo> -30 minutes
[03:30] <Seveas> 14:00 UTC is in 30 minutes
[03:30] <Seveas> (not 90)
[03:30] <janimo> hmm?
[03:31] <janimo> AHA
[03:31] <Seveas> daylight savings time confusion 
[03:31] <janimo> summer time switch here 
[03:31] <nomed> janimo, the same :)
[03:31] <janimo> nomed di you know?
[03:31] <Gloubiboulga> here too janimo 
[03:31] <Seveas> Wed Mar 29 13:31:37 UTC 2006
[03:31] <Seveas> that's the time now
[03:32] <janimo> Sivang and others who missed this short meeting blame astronomers/media/government
[03:32] <janimo> we cannot repeat it :)
[03:33] <janimo> in short todays summary was:
[03:33] <janimo> 1)tango icon issue 
[03:33] <janimo> we are waiting fro feedback from Daniel Holbach and canonical people
[03:33] <janimo> to see if it is ok to have tango in main
[03:34] <ogra> janimo, edubuntu-artwork already contains tango...
[03:34] <janimo> another ad-hoc issue was discussed
[03:34] <janimo> ogra, it's in universe
[03:34] <ogra> (a special variant=
[03:34] <janimo> the icon theme
[03:34] <ogra> nope, its in edubuntu-artwork (included)
[03:34] <janimo> well yes, since tango means at least 3 things
[03:34] <janimo> tango-icon-theme I mean
[03:35] <ogra> yes, we ship tango-brown in the artwork package ...
[03:35] <janimo> summary continued: cd burning app
[03:35] <sivang> janimo: so now is Xubuntu meeting??
[03:35] <sivang> :-)
[03:35] <janimo> sivang, well yes since we did not know that UTC shifted under us
[03:36] <janimo> so we started at 13:00 apparently
[03:36] <janimo> with nomed :)
[03:36] <nomed> janimo, in that case we can inherit xubuntu-icons from edubuntu-icons
[03:36] <janimo> but there was not much discussion really
[03:36] <janimo> nomed, I am fine with that
[03:36] <janimo> but does it mean edubuntu colors?
[03:36] <nomed> no
[03:36] <janimo> then what does inherot mean in this context?
[03:36] <nomed> it means few icons within xubuntu-artwork
[03:37] <janimo> fallback icons no?
[03:37] <ogra> nomed, its no that easy, either you include edubuntu-artwork or we split out a separate icon theme package 
[03:37] <nomed> i'll take a look on that pkge
[03:37] <ogra> but the latter will have the same problems as tango-icon-theme 
[03:37] <janimo> ogra, well the icon theme should have been separate from start
[03:37] <janimo> for reuse anyway
[03:37] <nomed> ogra, yes i know
[03:37] <janimo> ogra, indeed
[03:37] <janimo> we need to promote a not yet in main icon theme anyway
[03:38] <ogra> janimo, since it wasnt planned to be reused anywhere its fine as is ...
[03:38] <janimo> if we do not use stock ubuntu or gnome or one that is there already
[03:38] <nomed> i'm fine with human theme
[03:38] <nomed> or whatever 
[03:38] <janimo> nomed, upstream xfce said they'd stick with rodent for 4.4 default right?
[03:38] <janimo> me too
[03:38] <nomed> the problem is that if we need new icons
[03:39] <nomed> we'll not have artists working on that
[03:39] <janimo> nomed, which icons do we need which others did not need so far?
[03:39] <janimo> how did gnome do this so far
[03:39] <janimo> with gnome-icon-theme and non standard names?
[03:39] <nomed> janimo, xfce icons for ex
[03:39] <nomed> and rodent is not that complete
[03:40] <nomed> that's why i think xubutnu needs an icon theme
[03:40] <janimo> yes
[03:40] <janimo> the tango people you talked too
[03:40] <nomed> whatever we'll choose .. we'll probably need to add icons
[03:41] <janimo> do they work on some icons regardless of it's inclusion in xubuntu?
[03:41] <janimo> or they don;t bother until they're sure we need tango
[03:41] <janimo> and the work they're supposed to do, is it within the standard tango-icon-theme if there is such a standard
[03:41] <nomed> janimo, they want to work just on tango like icons theme
[03:41] <janimo> aha tango guidelines
[03:41] <nomed> as that's what they do normally
[03:42] <nomed> exactly
[03:42] <janimo> but a new xubuntu theme different from tango icon theme itself
[03:42] <nomed> janimo, that's not needed ..
[03:42] <nomed> considering we'll not have the time
[03:42] <janimo> use those as fallback?
[03:42] <nomed> yes
[03:43] <janimo> does any distro ship with tango as default? I suppose it's too young still
[03:44] <nomed> janimo, there are many variants ..
[03:44] <nomed> and many artists that are working on those icons actively
[03:45] <janimo> and how do we know what to pick? whch themes are ready? do they duplicate work?
[03:45] <janimo> I wish tango and upstream xfce struck a deal or something
[03:46] <nomed> janimo, most of xfce devel are already using tango
[03:46] <janimo> I wonder why they do not choose it as default instead of rodent
[03:46] <nomed> and 2 main tango artists ... would be happy to work on xubuntu icons theme
[03:47] <janimo> ok
[03:47] <janimo> then just go ahead with this
[03:47] <nomed> i guess it's possible to get some results ...
[03:47] <janimo> it is better than current situation when we just wait anyway :)
[03:47] <nomed> yep
[03:48] <nomed> and we'll need more artwork stuff
[03:48] <nomed> as espresso theme .. gfxboot wallpaper
[03:48] <janimo> thos artists do they have some icons ready to show, screenshots etc so we/xfce upstream can see if it's ok as default?
[03:48] <janimo> nomed, sure
[03:48] <janimo> gfxboot kamion said he'd do as it's install CD stuff
[03:48] <janimo> and once we have liveCD we look at espresso too
[03:49] <nomed> janimo, for gxfboot theme will need just to change some colors ..
[03:49] <janimo> What gtk engine do you think we should use?
[03:49] <nomed> i know gxfboot source
[03:49] <janimo> yes gfxboot is easy
[03:49] <janimo> compared to rest of artwork
[03:50] <nomed> janimo, xfce4 
[03:50] <nomed> even if i like more ubuntulook
[03:50] <nomed> i would know if it really slows down the system
[03:50] <janimo> does xfce4 have anything special?
[03:51] <janimo> it was even asked recently on the m-l if it should be deprecated
[03:51] <janimo> I know is does some gradient but where I don;t know
[03:51] <nomed> janimo, not sure about that
[03:51] <Seveas> janimo, to avoid confusion in the future:
[03:51] <Seveas> @now
[03:51] <Ubugtu> Current time in UTC: March 29 2006, 13:03:46
[03:52] <sivang> Seveas: good
[03:52] <janimo> Seveas: yeah, I won't forget. Not for 6 months that is
[03:52] <janimo> I had almost hardwired UTC+2 so did not think about it at all
[03:52] <anstei> Seveas: this clock seems wrong, it should be short before 14:00, shouldn't it?
[03:53] <Seveas> yes it should
[03:53] <sivang> but still we you guys started ahead of time
[03:53] <Seveas> odd
[03:53] <sivang> since 14:00 it one hour from now
[03:53] <sivang> :)
[03:54] <Seveas> @reload Webcal
[03:54] <Seveas> @now
[03:54] <Ubugtu> Current time in UTC: March 29 2006, 13:54:21
[03:54] <Seveas> (It had %m instead of %M)
[03:54] <anstei> 
[03:56] <Seveas> (it recognizes timezones too, like @now amsterdam)
[03:57] <Gloubiboulga> janimo, about 2) Archiver ?
[03:58] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: nomed can talk about that :)
[03:58] <Gloubiboulga> :)
[03:58] <janimo> and which agenda are you looking at :)
[03:58] <janimo> last week's?
[03:58] <Gloubiboulga> nop, you've mentionned it a few minutes ago iirc
[03:59] <janimo> I think I said cd burner
[03:59] <janimo> graveman
[03:59] <Gloubiboulga> ah yeah... sorry :D
[03:59] <janimo> at least that;'s what I wanted to say
[03:59] <nomed> Gloubiboulga, xarchiver should be ready for the end of the week
[03:59] <janimo> ogra said that graveman depends on mp3 stuff (libmad)
[03:59] <Gloubiboulga> nomed, ok
[03:59] <janimo> which may go to universe
[03:59] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: but since kubuntu uses libmad
[04:00] <janimo> it seems it will stay in main
[04:00] <janimo> but we probbaly cannot ship libmad if it has mp3 pateneed stuff as part of garveman dpeendency
[04:00] <janimo> even though ubuntu may have done that by accident in the past
[04:01] <janimo> so we may not have any cd burner app in the default
[04:01] <Gloubiboulga> ok...
[04:01] <Riddell> can't you just split off the mp3 plugin?
[04:01] <Riddell> or is it not a plugin?
[04:02] <janimo> apparently it's not a plugin
[04:02] <janimo> links to libmad directly
[04:02] <janimo> but did not look close at all
[04:02] <janimo> mostly quoting ogra
[04:02] <sivang> janimo: you need cdburning app in Xubuntu?
[04:03] <janimo> sivang: not that badly 
[04:03] <janimo> it'd be nice though
[04:03] <ogra> janimo, i didnt look at graveman sice hoary might be worth to take a look at changes :)
[04:03] <sivang> janimo: well, I might be able to throw something as HUB is already a mini cd burning app
[04:03] <sivang> janimo: could be sensible to throw some GUI on the already exisiting backend
[04:03] <sivang> janimo: but I can promise anything..
[04:04] <janimo> sivang: yes, but it may be too  late for dapper
[04:04] <janimo> I am not even sure about graveman's stability
[04:04] <sivang> sure
[04:04] <janimo> fixed a gllib crasher a while ago but may be others
[04:04] <janimo> this was easy since it did it always on startup :_
[04:04] <janimo> :)
[04:04] <sivang> heh
[04:05] <nomed> http://www.dsslive.org/bzr/python/python-burn/pyburn <-- this is a pure frontend to cdrecord ...
[04:05] <nomed> but i'll not have the time to complete it for sure
[04:05] <Riddell> sivang: they can just use k3b like all the ubuntu users do :)
[04:06] <janimo> yeah I guess so
[04:06] <ogra> pfft
[04:06] <Gloubiboulga> what is k3b ? ;)
[04:06] <janimo> I wonder when will there be a nice birner lib so people stop needing to call cdrecord
[04:07] <janimo> hmm typo but pronounced the same :)
[04:07] <ogra> Gloubiboulga, the burning app thats as big as your whole desktop ;)
[04:08] <Gloubiboulga> ogra, :)
[04:09] <sivang> Riddell: true :-)
[04:09] <sivang> Riddell: the number one linux burning app
[04:09] <sivang> janimo: I had this same discussion with pitti about a burner lib last night :-)
[04:09] <janimo> sivang, stop giving ideas to kde devels
[04:10] <janimo> they may take you seriously :)
[04:10] <janimo> what did pitti say about the lib?
[04:13] <janimo> anything else todiscuss?
[04:14] <nomed> janimo, for we it's over :)
[04:14] <nomed> s/we/me
[04:14] <janimo> s/me/us/ :)
[04:14] <janimo> ok then see you next week
[04:14] <nomed> cu :)
[04:15] <sivang> janimo: he said we badl need one
[04:15] <sivang> :-)
[04:15] <sivang> badly, even
[04:15] <janimo> sivang, oh everyone agrees on that at least :)
[04:58] <jsgotangco> hi
[05:00] <jsgotangco> opps wrong window
[09:56] <GNAM> dapper meeting is in six hours?