[03:57] <mdz> good morning all
[03:57] <dholbach> hey mdz
[03:58] <pitti> JaneW: there now - sort of
[03:58] <mdz> Kamion,mvo,doko,infinity,Riddell,Mithrandir,iwj,Kinnison,BenC,ogra,JaneW: ping
[03:58] <Kamion> here
[03:58] <doko> good morning
[03:58] <Kamion> iwj is on holiday
[03:58] <Riddell> pong
[03:58] <mdz> right, so he is 
[03:58] <mdz> as is Keybuk
[03:59] <mvo> hello
[04:00] <mvo> ogra is not here for important personal reasons
[04:01] <mdz> I thought he retracted that
[04:01] <mdz> SMSed Mithrandir, JaneW, BenC
[04:02] <Kamion> I suspect ogra has a good excuse if he doesn't make it, anyway.
[04:02] <dholbach> Mithrandir was replying on IRC some minutes ago
[04:02] <mdz> Kamion: indeed
[04:02] <Mithrandir> I'm here
[04:04] <mdz> dholbach: would you ring JaneW and BenC? we'll need to start without them
[04:04] <mdz> Riddell: you're up first
[04:04] <dholbach> mdz: right
[04:04] <Riddell> done:
[04:04] <Riddell>  kde espresso syncing with gtk frontend
[04:04] <Riddell>  kde 3.5.2, qt 3.3.6, amarok 1.3.9 uploaded
[04:04] <Riddell>  flight 6 testing and CD resizing
[04:04] <Riddell> next week
[04:04] <Riddell>  flight 6 then solid kde espresso hopefully
[04:04] <mdz> Riddell: how is kde espresso overall?
[04:04] <mdz> I haven't had a chance to try it yet
[04:05] <Kamion> nor I, not since the UI sprint
[04:05] <mdz> any regressions in 3.5.2?
[04:05] <Riddell> still a long TODO list, but should be in a decent shape for beta release time
[04:05] <Riddell> only 1 minor problem in kdeartwork, overlapping files
[04:05] <mdz> good
[04:05] <mdz> what's happening with kubuntu-documentation?
[04:05] <dholbach> narf, our wiki hates me, I'll keep trying
[04:06] <Riddell> there's been some god activity on the desktop guide, but I should upload an updated version soon
[04:06] <dholbach> ah ok
[04:06] <mdz> ok
[04:06] <mdz> thanks
[04:06] <mdz> seb128: ready?
[04:06] <seb128> this week: bug triage and fixing
[04:06] <seb128> next week: keep on bug triage and fixing
[04:07] <mdz> :-)
[04:07] <seb128> :)
[04:07] <mdz> how long is the bug list?
[04:07] <mdz> have the bug days helped?
[04:07] <mvo> lol
[04:07] <seb128> you don't want to know about the list :p
[04:07] <mdz> I do
[04:07] <seb128> it doesn't go down 
[04:07] <seb128> the previous bug day has been nice
[04:07] <mdz> seb128: is gnome .2 scheduled yet?  will we have another point release for dapper?
[04:07] <seb128> and there is some new active people
[04:07] <JaneW> argh - sorry....
[04:08] <seb128> yeah, .2 is somewhere during may
[04:08] <mdz> oh good
[04:08] <seb128> let me look at it
[04:08] <mdz> let me know when there is a fixed date
[04:08] <seb128> bug days could use some extra distro team people out of dholbach and me
[04:08] <doko> seb128: no more pango updates please ;)
[04:09] <mdz> I think we should have a bug day where the entire team participates
[04:09] <fabbione> like tomorrow?
[04:09] <seb128>  May 29th
[04:09] <seb128> 
[04:09] <seb128> GNOME 2.14.2 Tarballs Due
[04:09] <seb128> 
[04:09] <seb128> May 31st
[04:09] <seb128> 
[04:09] <seb128> GNOME 2.14.2 Stable Release 
[04:09] <fabbione> for the X HUG DAY?
[04:09] <seb128> according to http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
[04:09] <mdz> seb128: argh, bad timing
[04:09] <mdz> sure, tomorrow.  I think everyone will be here except iwj
[04:09] <dholbach> mdz: benC said he was in connecticut and was taking a day off today and tomorrow
[04:10] <dholbach> mdz: and he had notified you
[04:10] <Mithrandir> I'll be busy shoving flight-6 out the door, but if you lot are busy triaging bugs, that sounds good.
[04:10] <infinity> BenC's bug list is generally so drastically different from everyone else's that he may not derive much value from a bug day anyway.
[04:10] <mdz> dholbach: right, ok
[04:10] <mdz> so no BenC for bug day tomorrow
[04:11] <Kamion> infinity: it would probably be useful for somebody to teach the bugsquad how to triage kernel bugs
[04:11] <mdz> he can attend the next one
[04:11] <Kamion> if installer bugs are anything to go by, they will need training
[04:11] <mdz> but let's all join in tomorrow
[04:11] <infinity> Kamion: It could be, but it takes a certain knowlege of the kernel before you can even begin.
[04:11] <dholbach> but adding stuff to wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures might be a good start (anyway)
[04:12] <mdz> infinity: they can at least learn what information is needed and help getting reports fleshed out
[04:12] <infinity> mdz: True that.
[04:12] <mdz> JaneW: saw it already
[04:12] <JaneW> mdz: ah right. ok
[04:13] <mdz> thanks seb128
[04:13] <mdz> pitti: ?
[04:13] <pitti> reducing-duplication:
[04:13] <pitti>  * talked with Adam about php5-sqlite; package will be split off to universe
[04:13] <pitti>  * TODO: check with seb128 about getting rid of gtk+1.2 (quite many packages still use it)
[04:13] <pitti> DB2 packaging:
[04:13] <pitti>  * DONE:
[04:13] <pitti>    - automatic instance setup
[04:13] <pitti>    - reasonable package splitting (server, dev, gui, doc, l10n, metapackage for everything)
[04:13] <pitti>    - integrated DAS startup/shutdown
[04:13] <pitti>    - Java SDK deb from the bundled IBM JDK and integrate the GUI stuff to work OOTB
[04:13] <pitti>    - proper package descriptions
[04:13] <pitti>    - got many hints and a lot of testing help from sivang
[04:13] <pitti>    - checked status with mdz, packaging features are deemed sufficient for now
[04:13] <pitti>    - sivang ran officla certification test suite, passed; I have the logs
[04:13] <pitti>  * TODO: fix some packging issues (mainly daemon stopping and cleaning on purge)
[04:13] <pitti> general stuff done this week:
[04:13] <pitti>  * brought language pack imports up to date, fixed import bugs
[04:13] <pitti>  * bug triage from hell (sub'ed to many packages and cleaned up bug reports)
[04:13] <pitti>  * bug fixing, mostly in Utopia related stuff
[04:13] <pitti> plan for next week:
[04:13] <pitti>  * finally dive into triaging printing bugs
[04:13] <pitti>  * cupsys 1.2 final is about to be released, upstream did a ton of bug fixes since our current snapshot; evaluate svn commit changelog for new features, test current RC1 whether it breaks stuff (further :/), ask for UVF exception if appropriate
[04:13] <pitti>  * CD/espresso testing
[04:13] <pitti> sorry, bit longish
[04:14] <mdz> pitti: are rosetta updates flowing smoothly now?
[04:14] <Mithrandir> pitti: can I borrow you for flight-6 testing on ppc tomorrow?
[04:14] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i have ppc too if you need
[04:14] <pitti> mdz: you mean production code updates? 
[04:14] <mdz> pitti: I mean translation updates via langpacks
[04:14] <pitti> Mithrandir: of course, full speed for testing and bug triage tomorrow
[04:15] <Mithrandir> fabbione: the more the merrier, so sounds good. :-)
[04:15] <pitti> mdz: ooh, carlos recently started to produce tarballs; I didn't look at them yet, will do ASAP
[04:15] <mdz> Mithrandir: hmm, flight-6 and bug day both tomorrow?
[04:15] <fabbione> Mithrandir: just ping me when it's time
[04:15] <pitti> mdz: but he fixed the worst bugs recently
[04:15] <Mithrandir> mdz: flight-6 was planned for today, but didn't make it.
[04:15] <infinity> Mithrandir: I'm prepared to shut off the cronjobs on drescher and drive them by hand, if we need fast turnaround time on the archive for Flight releases.  Waiting forever and a day could really tire us out.
[04:16] <mdz> Mithrandir: what were the showstoppers?
[04:16] <seb128> Mithrandir: tomorrow beeing friday for you?
[04:16] <infinity> mdz: It's a good match to do them together, since bugs can be triaged without uploads happening. :)
[04:16] <pitti> right, and while installs progressing...
[04:16] <Mithrandir> mdz: not booting on some amd64s, for instance.
[04:16] <Mithrandir> seb128: tomorrow is Thursday.
[04:16] <seb128> k, so not the same day as bug day 
[04:17] <fabbione> Mithrandir: it is thursday in our TZ :P
[04:17] <Mithrandir> fabbione: it's thursday after I've slept.
[04:17] <fabbione> ahah
[04:17] <mdz> ok, so flight-6 thursday and bug day friday?
[04:17] <seb128> hum, sleep :)
[04:17] <seb128> mdz: correct
[04:17] <mdz> good
[04:17] <mdz> thanks pitti
[04:17] <Mithrandir> seb128: yes, this thing some of us do, once in a while.
[04:17] <mdz> ogra: next?
[04:17] <pitti> mdz: what will happen with db2 now?
[04:18] <mdz> pitti: let's talk about it after the meeting
[04:18] <pitti> mdz: after the packaging fixes?
[04:18] <pitti> right
[04:18] <doko> pitti: no ooo files in carlos' rosetta export
[04:19] <mdz> mvo: next?
[04:19] <mvo> Did:
[04:19] <mvo> - bugtriage
[04:19] <mvo> - work on the dist-upgrade tool, should be in good shape now (polish, ui, better progress reporting, better error recovery)
[04:19] <mvo> - debugged/found bug in gksu that caused the debconf-gnome problems of the dist-upgrade-tool (fix in dapper, needs to go into breezy-updates too, send mail to kov about it)
[04:19] <mvo> - fontconfig-voodoo/font work,communication (sil)
[04:19] <mvo> - work on the gnome-app-install data extractor, fixed various bugs, blacklisted various entries
[04:19] <mvo> - smallish bits on the qt-language-selector
[04:19] <mvo> - misc stuff, fixes (gdebi, update-manager, software-properties, apt, notification-daemon, synaptic, gnome-app-install, manual upgrade testing)
[04:19] <mvo> Will do:
[04:19] <mvo> - more bug-fixing/bugtriage
[04:19] <mvo> - push for the auto-dist-upgrade test chroot setup
[04:19] <mvo> - get the dist-ugprade tool into the archive, my currend idea is to add a "--development" option for people who want to upgrade to the current development release 
[04:19] <Kamion> mvo: is that the same gksu problem we encountered on the live CD?
[04:19] <Kamion> gksudo didn't work until sudo had been run once, or something like that
[04:19] <mdz> mvo: is the upgrade tool firmly in breezy-updates now?  any feedback from that?
[04:20] <mvo> Kamion: no, this seems to be something different, too clearly cleanup 
[04:20] <Kinnison> mvo: tomorrow can we please go through the bits needed to get the upgrade tool signed on cron.daily?
[04:20] <Kamion> mdz: there's a launchpad bug blocking getting python-vte into breezy-updates/main
[04:20] <mvo> mdz: not in breezy-updates yet (but prepared for it), the missing bit was how to activate prompting for the devel version
[04:21] <mvo> I would like to do it with "--developemtn" to only get people using it who can handle a commandline
[04:21] <mdz> Kamion: do you have a bug numbe?
[04:21] <mdz> number, even
[04:21] <Kamion> bug 36022
[04:21] <mvo> Kinnison: yes, that would be good
[04:21] <mvo> Kinnison: I talked to elmo about it briefly about it
[04:22] <Kinnison> mvo: let's talk tomorrow and let the meeting continue for now
[04:22] <mvo> any objections about the "update-manager --development" approach for prompting for upgrades to a development release?
[04:22] <mdz> Kamion: ok, will see that it is chased
[04:22] <infinity> mvo: Sounds good to me.
[04:22] <Kamion> mdz: thanks
[04:22] <mvo> it will prompt normally when the official release is out
[04:22] <mdz> mvo: how do manual dist-upgrades look so far?  any problems?
[04:23] <mvo> mdz: no, recent upgrades on i386 look very good
[04:23] <mdz> mvo: have you implemented a scheme to allow us to suppress notifications of the availability of dapper+1 to dapper users, per sabdfl's request?
[04:23] <mvo> mdz: jbailey had trouble last week with amd64 and OO though
[04:23] <infinity> I recently dist-upgraded a friend who had ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, and a bunch of other crap installed, and it was nearly flawless.  I should try this again and file some bugs on the 2 or 3 issues.
[04:23] <mvo> mdz: IMHO we need to show notifications for dapper users but offer a way to "don't show this again". because a lot of dapper users will want to upgrade
[04:23] <mdz> I saw a conffile prompt in some random X package recently
[04:24] <mvo> we should make it clear in the release notes that this is a upgrade to a not 3y support version
[04:24] <mdz> mvo: we can argue it later, but need to allow for his request to be satisfied
[04:24] <mvo> mdz: yes, thanks
[04:24] <mdz> mvo: I agree that we should offer "don't show this again" in any case
[04:25] <mdz> do we already have the ability to display a note before the upgrade, where we could explain about the support lifetime etc.?
[04:25] <mvo> mdz: yes, we display release notes
[04:26] <mvo> that is, anything that is in the release notes-uri :)
[04:26] <mdz> ok, thanks mvo
[04:26] <mdz> Mithrandir: next?
[04:26] <Mithrandir> last week: finished up the Korean keyboard work, some XKB work, some bug triage.  Also, flight-6 preparations today and tomorrow.  Some espresso hacking too (timezone selector).
[04:26] <Mithrandir> next week: more espresso hacking, popcon, general bug gardening
[04:26] <Mithrandir> blocked on: soyuz being slow; see bug 36535.  This is already problematic for flights and will be worse when we get closer to release.
[04:26] <mdz> how is the new xkeyboard-config working out?
[04:27] <Mithrandir> a bit rough in the beginning, but upstream's responsive and I think we have most of the issues worked out now.
[04:27] <mdz> will follow up with LP on 36535
[04:28] <Mithrandir> Adam has a bug about building out of incoming too.  If we could get both, I'd be thrilled.
[04:28] <mdz> Mithrandir: be sure the next Flight announcement includes a note about new X keyboard bits and requests explicit attention to testing
[04:28] <Mithrandir> mdz: ok.
[04:28] <mdz> building out of incoming is likely to be harder
[04:28] <mdz> rolling substantial new features into soyuz is a slow process in production
[04:28] <mdz> there might be low-hanging fruit on performance optimization though
[04:28] <seb128> mdz: fixes the issue with GNOME keymaps selections, we got a compose:ralt issue which got worked with upstream and fixed, out of that seems to work nicely
[04:28] <mdz> I will speak with kiko
[04:29] <Mithrandir> thanks.
[04:29] <Mithrandir> seb128: did you get the X parts of that fixed too?
[04:29] <Kinnison> and can probably come up with one or two speedups
[04:29] <Kinnison> possibly enough to make 30m cron.dailys reliable
[04:29] <seb128> Mithrandir: svu fixed it with xkeyboard-config changes only in fact
[04:29] <Mithrandir> seb128: oh, cool.
[04:29] <infinity> Kinnison: We'd love you forever.
[04:30] <mdz> Kinnison: please send an email to me+kiko with your ideas to discuss
[04:30] <Mithrandir> Kinnison: that'd be very, very nice.
[04:30] <Kinnison> mdz: Sure
[04:30] <mdz> thanks
[04:30] <Kamion> Kinnison: I need to have a clear window where I can manipulate publishing records safely
[04:30] <infinity> Kinnison: As we approach beta, this will become critical.
[04:30] <Kinnison> infinity: *nod*
[04:30] <Kinnison> Kamion: I understand
[04:30] <Kamion> Kinnison: if that window is of the form "it's safe to manipulate publishing records while publish-distro is running", all the better :-)
[04:30] <mdz> seb128: you recommend it for breezy-updates as well?
[04:30] <mdz> seb128: (assuming feedback from flight 6 is positive)
[04:31] <seb128> probably yep
[04:31] <mdz> ok
[04:31] <infinity> Kinnison: I'll poke you later with more on this topic, including concerns/feedback from others about same.
[04:31] <mdz> thanks Mithrandir
[04:31] <Kinnison> infinity: thanks
[04:31] <mdz> Kinnison: next
[04:31] <Kinnison> gnome-power-manager (PowerManagementInterface): Rewound a bunch of partial patches to prepare 2.14.0-0ubuntu1 upload for after flight-6. Went through even more bugmail. Scouring of CVS to get a list of changesets for upstream to produce a 2.14.1 release for us.
[04:31] <Kinnison> gparted: reviewed patch by dholbach
[04:31] <Kinnison> metacity: fixed bug in the patch I created last week; continued to chat with upstream about this. They remain unconvinced as yet.
[04:31] <Kinnison> launchpad: worked on a test set for the uploader and started to integrate it into the launchpad test suite.
[04:31] <Kinnison> lp-ongoing: I will finish this test suite integration. I imagine there'll be another production rollout soon. 
[04:32] <Kinnison> distro-ongoing: Otherwise continue with gnome-power-manager, acpi related stuff, gparted, etc. I've promised Colin I'll help pick up some espresso UI bits.
[04:32] <Kinnison> [end] 
[04:32] <mdz> you're around for bug day, right?
[04:32] <Kinnison> Yes
[04:32] <mdz> great
[04:32] <mdz> are you tracking acpi/PM/laptop related issues in malone?
[04:32] <Kinnison> I am on the bug contacts for acpi-support
[04:32] <Kinnison> and I'm tracking most of them
[04:33] <Kamion> Kinnison: do you need any help from me on the gparted 0.2 merge?
[04:33] <mdz> I hear some murmurings about suspend-to-RAM regressions from various people
[04:33] <mdz> I don't know whethere they're kernel or userland related
[04:33] <infinity> mdz: On upgrades, or fresh installs?
[04:33] <Kinnison> Kamion: dholbach is doing well on that. Once he has a 0.2.3 I'll review it and test it with my harness
[04:33] <Kamion> there was talk about that being due to the change in the kernel/user memory split; I understood mjg59 was on top of that
[04:33] <mdz> infinity: unclear; is there expected to be a difference?
[04:33] <fabbione> mdz: it can make a difference
[04:34] <Kinnison> mdz: I also have "mail mdz+kiko about speedups for publisher" and "work out what building out of incoming would entail"
[04:34] <infinity> mdz: Earlier today, a theory was developed that because gfxboot lets you pick a resolution (and then puts that resolution in a vga= line in your bootloader!), people are inadvertently using vesafb where they would previously have has vga16fb.
[04:34] <mdz> Kinnison: mjg59 doesn't seem to have much time for it these days; if you could chat with him and see if you can help fill in, that would be grand
[04:34] <Kinnison> mdz: I'll add that to my list
[04:34] <infinity> s/have has/have had/
[04:34] <Kamion> infinity: that can easily be turned off, if we're confident that nobody will ever need to use vga= to get a visible usplash
[04:35] <infinity> mdz: mjg59 did, however, just commit a kernel patch that fixes suspend-to-disk on macihnes with massive gobs of RAM (tested on my 2GB laptop)
[04:35] <mdz> Kinnison: I fully expected build-from-incoming to be a longer-term thing; don't spend too much time on it right away unless you already know otherwise
[04:35] <Kinnison> mdz: I wouldn't be coding it up, just looking to produce a better estimate of the job
[04:35] <Kinnison> mdz: in case we decide we need it as release approaches
[04:35] <mdz> infinity: perhaps we should disable that
[04:35] <mdz> since it presumably doesn't affect X anyway
[04:36] <mdz> Kinnison: sure, but it's lower priority than bugs
[04:36] <Kinnison> mdz: noted
[04:36] <pitti> mdz: btw, it should; it's one of the few ways we could fix the silly default resolution if resolution can't be detected automatically
[04:36] <Kamion> mdz: the reason vga= was copied was that it used to be necessary to get a usable console on some machines. Theoretically that shouldn't be the case any more now that we default to 640x400
[04:36] <Kinnison> mdz: where does "speed up publisher" come in my priority list?
[04:36] <pitti> that's still an ugly problem we haven't decided on
[04:36] <Kamion> pitti: VESA resolutions probably aren't a particularly good set of options for X though
[04:37] <mdz> Kinnison: mail me your list and I'll sort it for tomorrow
[04:37] <Kinnison> mdz: okay
[04:37] <infinity> Kamion: Let's continue this bootloader/vga thing out of band.
[04:37] <pitti> Kamion: maybe, but it's the only input the user can give on the live CD...
[04:37] <infinity> pitti: You too. ;)
[04:37] <pitti> yes, it's in a bug report, too
[04:37] <mdz> pitti,infinity: chat with fabbione about it; he has a todo item for a more graceful VESA fallback
[04:37] <fabbione> yeah
[04:38] <mdz> thanks Kinnison
[04:38] <mdz> JaneW: I think Keybuk has been on vacation for most of the time since the last meeting, any update?
[04:38] <JaneW> mdz: no, I'll mail him...
[04:39] <mdz> JaneW: nah, as I said I think he was on holiday all but a day or so
[04:39] <mdz> Kamion: next?
[04:39] <Kamion> that day I think he spent on n-m
[04:39] <Kamion> ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem: Estimated install copying time fixed.
[04:39] <Kamion> ubuntu-express-base-system: Timezone defaults fixed. Started in on sorting out network configuration; would have finished this evening but for laptop hardware problems. Looked at apt-setup this morning, but it turned out to be a bit more than the simple job I was hoping, so stepping back for a bit to rethink. Mithrandi
[04:39] <Kamion> r's doing timezone->country->locale inferring.
[04:39] <Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Fixed manual partitioner not to assume ext3 (too late for Flight CD 6 though).
[04:39] <Kamion> misc: Various random installer bug fixing. Trying to cope with checking up on all the bugs that triagers are closing for me (not all accurately; installer bugs require different treatment to say desktop bugs because it can be much harder to persuade people to re-test, and bugs are often very hardware-specific).
[04:39] <Kamion> next-week: Bug day tomorrow; perhaps I can do some education on installer bugs. Breezy CD images, this time for real; sorry pitti.
[04:39] <Kamion> sorry for screen-induced paste breakage
[04:40] <mdz> Kamion: what are we doing about network configuration in espresso?
[04:40] <Kamion> mdz: I tried to use netcfg, but it's difficult at present because that tries to bring interfaces up and down
[04:41] <mvo> Kamion: I would be interessted to talk to you about the eta copy time thing later, I did something like it in the upgrader too
[04:41] <mdz> there's an outside chance that NM will happen for the installed system, but we can't count on it
[04:41] <Kamion> mdz: so I'm just doing clone-and-hack of netcfg's logic for writing the standard network configuration files, plus copying certain bits from the live filesystem (/etc/network/interfaces mainly)
[04:41] <mdz> if we need to remove it from live as well so that we can do network configuration sanely, that's reasonable
[04:41] <Kamion> mvo: I doubt it's related - espresso's problem was that it was using cpio for the copy and thus losing track of progress due to buffering on cpio's stdin
[04:42] <mdz> is the live boot still configuring interfaces even though we're installing NM?
[04:42] <Kamion> mdz: yeah, the disconnect between live and installed is going to be awkward unless n-m remains installed after espresso installs
[04:42] <Kamion> mdz: it's doing all the configuration it ever did, i.e. write out auto dhcp stanzas for each interface
[04:42] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, but NM manages those interfaces so it's not harmful.
[04:42] <mdz> oh, so NM is ignoring everything on live anyway?  that's less than ideal
[04:42] <Kamion> n-m considers stanzas of that form to mean that it can manage the interfaces
[04:42] <Kamion> mdz: no
[04:42] <mdz> oh
[04:43] <mdz> how clever of it
[04:43] <Kamion> this configuration is probably ok; however if 
[04:43] <Mithrandir> nm manages all interfaces on live.
[04:43] <Kamion> the user actually does any meaningful setup with n-m, they'll be a bit surprised that it's no longer available on install
[04:43] <Kamion> I could perhaps try to detect whether they've fiddled with n-m and if so keep n-m installed, or something
[04:43] <mdz> possibly
[04:43] <infinity> Good thing you can't do anything useful with n-m, except for picking a wireless network. :)
[04:43] <infinity> (No static IP setup or anything in N-M yet)
[04:43] <Kamion> infinity: WPA configuration now
[04:44] <infinity> Oh, and that.
[04:44] <mdz> that could be frustrating
[04:44] <Kamion> anyway, out-of-band?
[04:44] <mdz> yes
[04:44] <mdz> when Keybuk is back, let's talk about what to do with NM
[04:44] <mdz> thanks Kamion
[04:44] <mdz> iwj has been on holiday...
[04:44] <mdz> infinity: next?
[04:44] <infinity> last week buildd: Sorting out build failures in main, we're now down to exactly one FTBFS package (syck on amd64) which I'm investigating, everything else it up to date.
[04:44] <infinity> last week distro: General bug fixing and bug triaging in packages I maintain, and elsewhere (such as network-manager), preparing for Flight-6.
[04:44] <infinity> next week buildd: More of the same, making sure everything is building, also need to get livefs and security building on hppa/sparc in the DC.  I also need to get MOTU up to speed on their FTBFS issues ASAP.
[04:45] <infinity> next week distro: More and more triaging and bugfixing in packages I maintain solo and in teams, and help Tollef with the Flight-6 release.
[04:45] <infinity> NOTE: I don't mind terribly fixing FTBFS bugs, it's a big part of my job, and I'm rather good at spotting build problems, but PLEASE, don't use that as an excuse to not test builds before you upload.  Pretty please.
[04:45] <infinity> SCARIER NOTE: Due to unfortunate changes upstream in libmysqlclient15, it would be in our best interest to sync their new (ABI incompatible) version and do a mass rebuild of reverse deps.  This needs discussion.
[04:45] <mdz> great news on buildability, thanks for that
[04:45] <mdz> do we have a strategy for a test build for dapper?
[04:45] <fabbione> infinity: +1 on the rebuild
[04:45] <infinity> We should discuss the MySQL thing, I just wanted to toss it out there so people don't freak out when it happens.
[04:46] <mdz> infinity: please send an email re: mysql
[04:46] <infinity> mdz: We have no particularly wonderful strategy there yet.  I need to discuss with Kinnison to see if LP can do it for us, and if not, get elmo to set it up in wanna-build.
[04:46] <infinity> mdz: Will do.
[04:46] <Kamion> ubuntu-devel-announce on mysql maybe? (or maybe once we've decided)
[04:46] <mdz> infinity: ok, please start that ball rolling so we don't have to rush later
[04:46] <infinity> Kamion: I can announce it, but rebuilds are fairly simple, not sure it's worth the hassle.
[04:46] <fabbione> infinity:  i can do w-b for sparc here. 24 instances of buildd will be way faster than the machines at the DC
[04:46] <mdz> Kamion: ubuntu-devel and CC me for the discussion; announce once we'v edecided
[04:47] <mdz> fabbione: that is a damn fine idea
[04:47] <fabbione> mdz: that'd be only sparc tho..
[04:47] <infinity> sparc only would catch 99% of the FTBFS bugs anyway.
[04:47] <mdz> right, but we have relatively few i386-specific packages and could test them manually
[04:47] <infinity> But it's no hassle to get it going in the DC, really, just need to get elmo to do his end (cut an archive snapshot)
[04:48] <fabbione> mdz: can you sponsor a set of earplugs for me, pretty please? :P
[04:48] <infinity> I suspect LP isn't ready for us to do these things natively yet.
[04:48] <mdz> infinity: elmo is a busy man
[04:48] <fabbione> mdz: but yes we can do it
[04:48] <fabbione> infinity: you can get console here and go with it
[04:48] <mdz> fabbione: noise canceling headphones, you mean ;-)
[04:48] <infinity> fabbione: Do you still have a local mirror?
[04:48] <fabbione> mdz: exactly
[04:48] <mdz> ok, thanks infinity
[04:48] <mdz> fabbione: next?
[04:48] <fabbione> infinity: yes
[04:48] <fabbione> * server-candy: Missing/buggy: apache2 for "central snakeoil SSL setup" and kernel -server as default from CD install. No other progresses.
[04:48] <fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: Waiting ocfs2-tools release for new userland to sync with the kernel that will allow (finally) full desync later. Release is taking a bit longer, pinged upstream, no answer yet. Got the SAN almost up and running. Missing to configure the 2x2Gb fiber switches and get some controllers around different machines to start testing.
[04:48] <fabbione> * last week: X bug fixing/triage/headackes/larting/bashing/killing/... redhat-cluster-suite bug fixing and a bit of sparc bug fixing, got mono working on sparc with David Miller :)
[04:48] <fabbione> * next week: bug fixing + X hug day tomorrow. Prepare redhat-cluster-suite breezy-update for a missing init script. Wacom in
[04:48] <fabbione> X needs love very soon (found a can of worm looking at the bugs). Going to announce sparc CDs later today since they have bee
[04:48] <fabbione> n finally tested.
[04:48] <fabbione> * bug work has bottle necks on malone missing ability to do multiple bug processing. (Discussed with LP people already)
[04:48] <fabbione> infinity: i have all in the local mirror
[04:49] <mdz> fabbione: I am following up on your LP requests to assist with X triage
[04:49] <fabbione> mdz: yes i saw your first mail, thanks
[04:50] <fabbione> oh i have been a bit sick yesterday
[04:50] <fabbione> otherwise everything is on track
[04:50] <fabbione> X is in bad shape.. we will make it rocking
[04:50] <mdz> spoke with kiko at length today and will again tomorrow regarding all of the priority LP activity for us
[04:50] <fabbione> in a year or two
[04:50] <fabbione> mdz: great thanks
[04:50] <mdz> fabbione: we run on 1-hour days, so we should be able to squeeze a year in before dapper ;-)
[04:50] <mdz> thanks fabbione
[04:50] <mdz> doko: next?
[04:50] <fabbione> anyway more seriously.. the biggest issue was the ati driver and we got upstream very close to us
[04:51] <doko> - toolchain-roadmap: glibc i386 on amd64 fixed, patch comparision (unstable vs. dapper) beeing addressed.
[04:51] <doko> - toolchain-roadmap-ng: blocked (Martin Michlmayer and Ben Hutchings did a Debian unstable rebuild with gcc-4.1 on mips and amd64, which is looking good)
[04:51] <doko> - openoffice.org: two new locales, bug fixes, finding that we import all message strings as translated into rosetta, en-au dictionary and thesaurus available (jdub, for your slides ;-), working on OOo 2.0.2 packages for breezy (low prio)
[04:51] <doko> - other: preparing ttf-dejavu updates, ttf-dejavau font backport, looking for fonts for printing, python-2.4.3 candidate
[04:51] <doko> - plans for next week: focus in font/printing bugs and printing related packages
[04:51] <mdz> doko: any particular bug focus for you beyond ooo?
[04:51] <Riddell> doko: is fontforge up to date enough for dejavu?
[04:51] <mdz> working with pitti on printing?
[04:52] <doko> mdz: ^^^ font/printing bug
[04:52] <doko> sure, working with pitti on this would be good
[04:52] <mdz> (in case no one had noticed yet, I sometimes start writing responses before I finish reading the paste, to save time ;-) )
[04:52] <pitti> yep
[04:52] <doko> Riddell: any particular reason to ask?
[04:52] <mdz> doko: you'll be here for bug day?
[04:52] <doko> yes
[04:52] <mdz> great
[04:52] <Riddell> doko: I remember looking at dejavu earlier in dapper cycle and fontforge wasn't up to date enough for the latest versions
[04:53] <mdz> doko: do rosetta and ooo like each other these days?
[04:53] <doko> Riddell: asking upstream DejaVu
[04:54] <doko> mdz: so, so. OOo does copy the english string to the translated string, and rosetta imports that, so we have 100% OOo translations
[04:54] <doko> discussing with carlos how to solve this
[04:55] <mdz> doko: is there hope to have rosetta import/export for ooo for dapper?
[04:55] <doko> no exports for OOo yet; I'd like to have a tarball in the data center, not having to write 20 emails and fetching these via http
[04:55] <infinity> Automation is elation.
[04:56] <doko> mdz: the import is working, the workaround for me is to remove the strings, if en-US == translated lang
[04:56] <mdz> so we have import but not export
[04:56] <mdz> ok, running out of time
[04:56] <mdz> thanks doko
[04:56] <mdz> dholbach: next?
[04:56] <dholbach> icon-mission: icon page complete, workflow with art team implemented (apt-ftparchive is unhappy sometimes, need to investigate)
[04:56] <dholbach> this week (done): finished technical aspects of the icon world, *started* catching up with bug triage
[04:56] <dholbach> this week (todo): bug day, more bug triage, catching up with motu uvf
[04:56] <dholbach> next week: bug triage, working on organising the motu dapper fixage
[04:56] <mdz> dholbach: where do we stand on sabdfl's icon priorities?
[04:56] <dholbach> mdz: you mean the page?
[04:57] <mdz> dholbach: I mean actually getting the icons we need from the artist
[04:57] <dholbach> mdz: there was no update of Dave yet, he was supposed to report back this week
[04:57] <dholbach> I can mail him.
[04:57] <mdz> ok, please do
[04:57] <dholbach> right5
[04:57] <mdz> ok, before we close up
[04:58] <mdz> good news, thanks to elmo, syncs should start happening again very soon
[04:58] <sistpoty> yay :)
[04:58] <mdz> how is everyone feeling about the release schedule changes?
[04:58] <doko> mdz: on which basis, we did request syncs for specific versions, which are supserseeded in unstable
[04:59] <mdz> doko: I will be reviewing the pending requests with elmo
[04:59] <mdz> and will figure out what to do with those
[04:59] <Kamion> we can sync from snapshot.debian.net if need be, I'm sure
[04:59] <Kamion> I have one other issue
[04:59] <mdz> in the coming week I will be pressing hard on bugs, trying to get a handle on what is going on in Malone
[04:59] <mdz> working with kiko to get better reports for us
[04:59] <Kamion> bootable Intel Mac CDs require non-root HFS+ writing support
[05:00] <Kamion> we have no way to do this using free software, and even with non-free software we only get formatting, not other writing
[05:00] <JaneW> mdz: can I help with that? (bug reports)
[05:00] <mdz> JaneW: possibly; ping me tomorrow about it?
[05:00] <JaneW> mdz: sure
[05:00] <Kamion> if somebody would like to work on this (ideally adding an HFS+ hybrid option to mkisofs), please let me know; otherwise it'll have to wait until later in the cycle when I'm a bit more out from under the espresso mountain
[05:00] <seb128> mdz: schedule change will permit to fix a lot of small glitches which is nice
[05:01] <fabbione> mdz: i don't mind the change in the schedule, but it might kill my presence at the next spec writing orgy :/
[05:01] <mdz> Kamion: intel mac support isn't an explicit target for us; it's a nice to have but I'm happy to let it be a later one-off (by us or community-contributed) based on the final dapper CD if necessary
[05:01] <Kamion> mdz: we can do one-offs relying on somebody invoking root access to build the HFS+ piece, I *think*
[05:01] <JaneW> Kamion: can you send me espresso %ages - when the time is more sane please?
[05:01] <mdz> Kamion: happy to bounty the work if a candidate is available
[05:01] <Kamion> although haven't tested that theory yet
[05:01] <Kamion> but it's not feasible for autobuilding
[05:02] <mdz> ok, if anyone has outstanding issues, please mail or call
[05:02] <Kamion> mdz: nice-to-have> understand, I just thought I'd mention since an increasing number of people are asking about it
[05:02] <Kamion> JaneW: yes
[05:02] <mdz> it's late for most of you, thanks for staying up
[05:02] <JaneW> Kamion: ta
[05:02] <mdz> good night all
[05:02] <JaneW> Thanks everyone, sorry I was late (set the alarm time but forgot to turn it on)
[05:02] <fabbione> night guys
[05:02] <doko> good night
[05:02] <seb128> 'night
[05:03] <dholbach> night guys
[05:03] <infinity> 'Night, Europe. :)
[05:03] <pitti> cu later
[05:03] <pitti> thanks everyone
[05:04] <seb128> dholbach: you are crazy?
[05:04] <fabbione> sleep for one hour to wake up my wife is no option
[05:04] <fabbione> seb128: dude.. i need to take you out partying with me sometime
[05:04] <Mithrandir> remember, it's still flight-6 freeze, so please don't upload stuff to main until flight-6 is out.  Which should be in < 12 hours.
[05:04] <dholbach> seb128: i couldn't sleep any more, so I got up... I can just stay up
[05:04] <fabbione> seb128: 5am will be the normal
[05:04] <Burgundavia> mdz: intel mac is an awesome marketing win
[05:04] <seb128> dholbach: good joke
[05:05] <dholbach> seb128: I mean it
[05:05] <seb128> dholbach: k, I want all the desktop bugs cleaned when I wake up in some hours, start NOW
[05:05] <seb128> and have fun :p
[05:05] <dholbach> seb128: sure i'll have fun - sleep tight
[01:54] <ChristmasCpp> hy all
[01:54] <ChristmasCpp> d
[02:36] <Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
[02:36] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 30 Mar 18:00: Edubuntu Cookbook | 31 Mar 23:00: Documentation Team | 03 Apr 11:00: Community Council | 05 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 16:00: Xubuntu | 06 Apr 10:00: Dapper Development Status
[05:58] <spacey> hi
[05:59] <spacey> Pygi: ping
[05:59] <spacey> ogra: ping
[05:59] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu
[05:59] <Pygi> spacey, shhhhh ;)
[06:00] <spacey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-March/001265.html
[06:00] <spacey> for the Agenda
[06:00] <Pygi> Hello everyone
[06:00] <spacey> i feel quite loneeeeely
[06:00] <Pygi> Welcome to the Edubuntu cookbook meeting
[06:01] <Pygi> we'll wait for a few more minutes to give everyone a chance to attend
[06:01] <spacey> lets wait for a few minutes
[06:01] <kjcole> Work emergencies. I'll be in and out of this meeting...
[06:01] <flint> kjcole, i will be here...
[06:02] <flint> spacey, elkner is teaching class...
[06:02] <spacey> please read up on the agenda
[06:02] <spacey> i'm limited in time
[06:02] <spacey> so i want to stick close to the poings
[06:02] <spacey> items
[06:02] <spacey> and keep it structured
[06:03] <spacey> if you have any other items not related to the item in discussion please keep it to the end of the meeting
[06:04] <flint> where is the agenda?  I have both references up.  
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-March/001265.html
 for the Agenda
[06:04] <flint> gotcha...
[06:04] <spacey> ogra: there?
[06:05] <spacey> highvoltage will be a bit later
[06:05] <spacey> but we can start before that
[06:05] <flint> Regarding item 1) Define purpose and role of the book I believe that the cookbook motif should be reconsidered...
[06:05] <spacey> flint: please hold on
[06:05] <spacey> till we start
[06:05] <Pygi> flint: hold on ;)
[06:05] <spacey> i actually hoped ogra could be here
[06:06] <spacey> but he seems out of it
[06:06] <spacey> who is here now that intends to attend to the meeting?
[06:07] <spacey> ..
[06:07] <spacey> flint?
[06:07] <flint> present
[06:08] <spacey> too bad ogra is not here yet
[06:08] <spacey> but we'll start
[06:08] <spacey> regarding point 1)
[06:08] <spacey> 1) Define purpose and role of the book.
[06:08] <spacey> we wrote up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/PurposeAndRole
[06:08] <spacey> Anything that should be added there?
[06:08] <flint> HedgeMage, hello!!!
[06:08] <spacey> in anyones opinion
[06:09] <HedgeMage> hi flint 
[06:09] <spacey> Pygi: 
[06:09] <HedgeMage> I miss anything?
[06:09] <spacey> HedgeMage: we just started
 1) Define purpose and role of the book.
 we wrote up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/PurposeAndRole
[06:09] <spacey> HedgeMage: agenda: <spacey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-March/001265.html
[06:09] <spacey> Pygi: you think its pretty complete now? or should we cover it more specificly?
[06:10] <HedgeMage> thanks, spacey 
[06:10] <Pygi> spacey: fine for now, but needs update...some other issues are of greater concern...
[06:10] <kjcole> crisis du moment solved.
[06:10] <spacey> Pygi: what kind of update?
[06:11] <spacey> great another soul
[06:11] <Pygi> spacey: more detailed usage cases, etc.
[06:11] <spacey> ok
[06:11] <spacey> good 
[06:11] <spacey> anyone else?
[06:12] <spacey> HedgeMage: flint?
[06:12] <flint> I believe that a re-write of the Tuxlab would be the best way to get this out the door.
[06:12] <Pygi> flint: it can help, that is sure, but not in the way you think...
[06:12] <spacey> flint: you read my earlier posts to the list?
[06:13] <flint> The tuxlab book is pretty well structured and would be a better framework rather than starting with a whole new framework.
[06:13] <Pygi> a lot of stuff is too edubuntu specific
[06:13] <flint> Pygi, we are writing to edubuntu... eh?
[06:13] <spacey> most of the tuxlab stuff should be covered elsewhere
[06:13] <HedgeMage> I'm just jumping in, and this may end up being a seperate document from how-to-cook, but there needs to be something out there for teachers on using technology effectively in the classroom once they have it...
[06:13] <Pygi> flint: don't you know what this meeting is? :-/
[06:14] <HedgeMage> Most teachers either let that computer gather dust, or let it make their lives *more* complicated/difficult, instead of less
[06:14] <spacey> HedgeMage: what technology do you point out here?
[06:14] <spacey> what piece of the technology
[06:14] <flint> Pygi, oh I understood that this was specifically for edbuntu did i get this wrong?  it happens to old folks like me :^)
[06:14] <Pygi> flint: well, this is for edubuntu :)
[06:15] <spacey> flint: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-March/001236.html
[06:15] <spacey> please read up
[06:15] <flint> Pygi, I will not send myself to the home then... 
[06:15] <spacey> HedgeMage: can you be mroe specific
[06:15] <kjcole> flint, pygi I think you misunderstand each other: I think Pygi was saying that the Tuxlab book isn't edubuntu specific enough.
[06:16] <HedgeMage> spacey: I'd try to touch on what teachers can do with the computers in their classroom, both one-computer-per-class settings and lab settings
[06:16] <Pygi> kjcole: ++
[06:16] <flint> spacey, I looked over your spec and you want to get someting out the door, done.  do this the quickest and best way. what every engineer in life does is take the last version and build from there.
[06:16] <HedgeMage> spacey: have you ever worked in a school where computers are very new to 90% of the teachers?
[06:16] <spacey> HedgeMage: yes i do
[06:16] <spacey> at least they don't know anything about it
[06:16] <spacey> they just click on the icons
[06:17] <spacey> HedgeMage: the key software is covered in the chapter list
[06:17] <spacey> basicly that is your main point right? to make them familiar with available software?
[06:17] <HedgeMage> spacey: nope, more than that
[06:18] <spacey> Pygi: what i said might be something to add as usecase btw :P
[06:18] <spacey> HedgeMage: example?
[06:18] <HedgeMage> spacey: Teachers need to know how to integrate this new stuff into their lesson plans, how to figure out what lessons will benefit and which won't, and how to integrate it into the way they teach
[06:18] <flint> the tuxlab howto covers the subject in 14 chapters and an appendix.
[06:18] <HedgeMage> spacey: okay, two typical teachers from my mom's school to illustrate:
[06:19] <Pygi> flint: as said, tuxlab book is not edubuntu specific enough, and while we are surely to use it, we won't just copy it
[06:19] <kjcole> The Use Cases listed should perhaps also include students.  And the table of contents can be structured to allow more advanced users to skip introductory material.
[06:19] <flint> HedgeMage, you validly bring up the subjects of curriculum development and education.  sadly we are not equiped for that yet.  we have no foundation...
[06:20] <Pygi> kjcole: perhaps there will even not be introducory material ...
[06:20] <spacey> flint: your either not specific enough or completely off topic. Rewrite tuxlabs is not our goal
[06:20] <spacey> saying stuff like that has no foundation
[06:21] <flint> spacey, what I am suggesting to you is that the frivolity of the cookbook is not expeditious.  we need to get something out now.
[06:21] <spacey> Pygi: i think we have some extra ideas for usecases
[06:21] <spacey> flint: we are here because we want something out
[06:21] <HedgeMage> flint: I started a project on this once... humorously titled "Help! The computer ate my classroom!"... I may restart it, but in the mean time, I think integrating a little (even a short chapter) of introductory material somewhere, at least to get teachers thinking about it as they learn to use the software.
[06:21] <flint> jonathan did a serviceable job with the tuxlab howto.  we fix it and move on schedule.
[06:21] <kjcole> If you hope to recruit newcomers, then I think introductory material is essential.  I don't see many educators who have computers already set up by an IT person saying "Gee, let's throw out everything I know and hope that something I never heard of is better."
[06:22] <HedgeMage> *I think it might be beneficial
[06:22] <spacey> HedgeMage: can you write some ideas about this stuff in an email and send it to list, we might be able to do something with it then
[06:22] <spacey> i want to move on to the next topic now
[06:22] <flint> HedgeMage, stop the presses!!!! I am very interested.  is there a url where we may see this?
[06:22] <HedgeMage> spacey: sure thing... Won't happen until the weekend though
[06:22] <spacey> HedgeMage: ok
[06:22] <spacey> 2) Set deadlines for Dapper version.
[06:22] <spacey> we setted up some deadlines
[06:22] <HedgeMage> flint: I'll pop it back on my website and include info in the list email
[06:22] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Deadlines
[06:23] <spacey> any comments on that
[06:23] <spacey> those deadlines are needed to get everything in dapper
[06:23] <flint> april 15 th is the deadline for filing US income taxes... ech!
[06:23] <spacey> i don't think it needs much discussion
[06:24] <spacey> especially because ogra is not here
[06:24] <spacey> so we can move on
[06:24] <flint> spacey, nice job...
[06:24] <spacey> 3) Define scope. What do we want in the book and what not.
[06:24] <spacey> this point should be defined a bit more specificly
[06:24] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Scope
[06:24] <spacey> \but it should give a good impression 
[06:25] <kjcole> Benefits of thin-client computing would seem appropriate to me...
[06:25] <flint> HedgeMage, thanks mail the url to (flint@flint.com)
[06:25] <kjcole> Why does that work better on the web?
[06:25] <spacey> kjcole: i think it has a better place on the edubuntu website
[06:26] <Pygi> kjcole: you know, we don't have many time to write it all....and we have little people :)
[06:26] <HedgeMage> flint: will do
[06:26] <spacey> because
[06:26] <spacey> the cookbook is something you use during installation
[06:26] <spacey> if you read about the benifits its before hand
[06:26] <spacey> its a must have on the website
[06:27] <kjcole> Ah.  So, that narrows the scope considerably if it's really only an installation howto.
[06:27] <HedgeMage> spacey: we're reaching for something like the Gentoo Handbook, an exhausted how-to-get-this-thing-going sort of document, correct?
[06:27] <Pygi> uh,uh, not only during installation
[06:27] <spacey> and its not useful to dupliclicate in a book
[06:27] <HedgeMage> s/exhausted/exhaustive (freudian slip?)
[06:27] <spacey> Pygi: ok true
[06:27] <spacey> and after
[06:27] <spacey> but not really before imho
[06:27] <spacey> HedgeMage: its more to cover the basics
[06:27] <spacey> get people to know how things work
[06:27] <spacey> where to look things up
[06:27] <HedgeMage> spacey: okay, gotcha
[06:27] <spacey> we don't want to duplicate ubuntu documentation
[06:28] <spacey> thats a waste of effort
[06:28] <spacey> but they should know where to find it
[06:28] <HedgeMage> makes sense.
[06:28] <spacey> make the reader familiar with the system and ways
[06:29] <spacey> 4) Collaboration method. Wiki? Docbook?
[06:29] <spacey> We intend to use the wiki for now
[06:29] <spacey> see link
[06:30] <kjcole> So, Installation, Troubleshooting, Optional Configuration Tweaks and you're done.  Bascially.  Right?
[06:30] <spacey> kjcole: a bit more
[06:30] <spacey> also introduction to the key software
[06:30] <spacey> kjcole: see chapter layout 
[06:30] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/CollaborationMethod
[06:31] <spacey> 5) Revise current chapter layout.
[06:31] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters
[06:31] <spacey> thats the current layout i propose
[06:31] <spacey> needs some revision
[06:31] <spacey> and actually i wanted to discuss which points each chapter should cover
[06:31] <kjcole> Wiki +1.  It seems to be the lowest rung on the ladder.
[06:31] <Pygi> also, articles for chapters should be written
[06:31] <spacey> but i don't think this meeting is useful for that
[06:32] <spacey> should be more of a work meeting for that, between authors
[06:33] <spacey> Pygi: what do you think
[06:33] <spacey> that was 6) Define what each chapter should cover.
[06:33] <spacey> btw
[06:34] <spacey> great we are going *really* fast
[06:35] <spacey> item: 7) Assign roles and responsibilities
[06:35] <spacey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/RolesAndResponsibilities
[06:35] <kjcole> Does the intro cover the "What's inside?" part of things?
[06:35] <spacey> kjcole: whats inside... the book?
[06:35] <HedgeMage> spacey: somewhere in here will we want to touch on getting a *very minimal* web presence up?  most schools, at least in the US, making a change like this will have to be very aware of having something to show to the community at large, to keep their support.
[06:36] <spacey> HedgeMage: webpresence for us?
[06:36] <spacey> there is www.edubuntu.org
[06:36] <kjcole> spacey: No.  Earlier it was said that the book should give people an idea of what edubuntu software's included.  I didn't see a specific chapter for that, so I'm guessing in the Introduction.
[06:37] <spacey> kjcole: let me check
[06:37] <HedgeMage> spacey: no, for schools
[06:37] <spacey> HedgeMage: i think its out of scope, webservers are ubuntu documentation scope
[06:37] <spacey> kjcole: ah yes i see its not in the list, i had it in mind
[06:38] <spacey> but didn't know where to put it
[06:38] <HedgeMage> spacey: okay.
[06:38] <spacey> i guess it should come after the introduction
[06:39] <kjcole> spacey: sounds good to me.
[06:39] <spacey> Pygi: note :P
[06:39] <HedgeMage> kjcole: nice catch :)
[06:39] <kjcole> HedgeMage: One of very, very few, I'm afraid.
[06:40] <HedgeMage> kjcole: :P
 item: 7) Assign roles and responsibilities
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/RolesAndResponsibilities
[06:40] <spacey> to finish up with that
[06:40] <spacey> are there more reponsibilties for the roles or more roles needed?
[06:40] <kjcole> BTW, no one liked the "Appetizers, etc" well enough to keep that?  Just too silly?  Or not easy to map to?
[06:41] <spacey> kjcole: its quite funny
[06:41] <spacey> i wasnt thinking about naming the parts yet
[06:41] <spacey> but we'll probably use it
[06:41] <spacey> any comments on item 7?
[06:42] <HedgeMage> I'll jump in and do *something* just not sure what/where :)
[06:43] <spacey> HedgeMage: if you decide to write a part just be sure to finish it 
[06:44] <kjcole> Well, I wasn't very good at managing...  I did a lot of conversion of material between docbook, Lore and wiki.  Plus some rehashing of the content of Tuxlab.  But I've never done the LTSP stuff and am not in a classroom.  So, I'm not sure at this point what I can contribute.
[06:44] <spacey> i have to go now
[06:44] <spacey> sorry for that
[06:44] <spacey> have to visit doctor
[06:44] <kjcole> spacey: ta-ta.
[06:44] <spacey> Pygi will take over from me
[06:44] <HedgeMage> spacey: go, be healthy, see you later.
[06:44] <spacey> and finish things up
[06:46] <kjcole> Is it just me, or did it just get very quiet in here? ;-)
[06:46] <spacey> Pygi: :p
[06:46] <HedgeMage> lol
[06:46] <Pygi> ok, let's finish this up ....
[06:47] <Pygi> can anyone here be certain he'll be able to contribute, and what exactly?
[06:48] <HedgeMage> Pygi: I can donate about 15 hours between now and the first deadline, just not sure where I'll be the most useful.
[06:48] <kjcole> If it's on the wiki, I can review for grammar and style, I think.
[06:48] <highvoltage> hi
[06:48] <Pygi> hello highvoltage
[06:49] <highvoltage> hi Pygi 
[06:49] <Pygi> highvoltage, pm please
[06:49] <highvoltage> ok
[06:49] <Pygi> HedgeMage, will write it down
[06:51] <kjcole> Pygi: (I guess that falls under "Linguistic Quality Assurance".)  Other than that, I'm really not certain.  I suppose I can try to test according to the book.  I keep hoping to recruit a "virgin" to do that sort of thing, but no luck yet.
[06:52] <Pygi> kjcole: ok, we'll see what we will do ...
[06:52] <HedgeMage> Pygi: may I drop you a quick /msg ?
[06:53] <Pygi> HedgeMage: please do
[06:54] <highvoltage> i'll catch up on the meeting details i've missed so far on the logs
[06:55] <kjcole> One problem I see w/ testing is, to quote the wiki, a definition of "People with basic ICT skills".  As a programmer, I have a lot of experience (+27 years) with COMPUTERS.  But I wouldn't know a router from a hub from a switch if I fell over them.
[06:57] <kjcole> Most would interpret "basic ITC skills" as "knows how to turn computer on, knows how to install Microsoft Office, knows how to dial tech support."
[07:00] <HedgeMage> lol
[07:04] <Pygi> ah
[07:04] <kjcole> So, when testing, there should be a "lowest common denominator".  If I test, I'm going to pretend to be fairly ignorant of anything other than Windoze and an ethernet cable to a wall.  Things like public/private IP addresses?  I don't know what that is: When I turn on my Windoze machine at work it just "gets e-mail and lets me browse the web"...
[07:05] <Pygi> kjcole: wrong attitude
[07:05] <Pygi> we are not to write what an IP is
[07:05] <Pygi> out of scope
[07:06] <kjcole> Pygi: So, for setting up Edubuntu, I won't need to know anything about DHCP configuration stuff?
[07:06] <Pygi> you will, but for that you have ubuntu docs ;)
[07:08] <Pygi> kjcole: how much "pages" do you expect the book to have? infinite? :P
[07:09] <kjcole> Pygi, So the person setting up should get savvy with setting up a straight Ubuntu server before doing the Edubuntu setup?
[07:09] <Pygi> hm, no, we'll put info how it should be configured, but won't explain why is it configured that way
[07:09] <kjcole> Pygi, That works.  ;-)
[07:10] <Pygi> KISS
[07:10] <Pygi> ;)
[07:10] <Pygi> for normal users, it works ;)
[07:10] <Pygi> Keep it simple, stupid :-P
[07:10] <Pygi> anyway, I think we can end with the meeting 
[07:11] <Pygi> everyone agrees?
[07:11] <Pygi> not that there are people to disagree :P
[07:11] <kjcole> Pygi: I like the short and sweet (or the simple and stupid).  I'm just trying to think like someone who's been asked to set this thing up, but doesn't have the time to go reading lots of different docs.
[07:12] <kjcole> Pygi: Yeah.  Seems kind of quiet again.  And it's getting near my lunchtime...
[07:18] <HedgeMage> Pygi: btw, any chance this could end up being the permanent meeting time?  1200 UTC is 4am for me... that just doesn't work on a weekday (I need sleep occassionally)
[07:37] <kjcole> Bye...
[07:37] <Pygi> bye
[08:12] <GNAM> where's log of "dapper status" of today?
[08:12] <dholbach> read the topic please
[08:12] <GNAM> i've read
[08:13] <GNAM> and not found
[08:13] <dholbach> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[08:14] <flint> HedgeMage, you still here?
[08:25] <HedgeMage> flint: back now :)
[08:26] <HedgeMage> flint: what's up?
[08:28] <Pygi> welcome back HedgeMage
[08:31] <HedgeMage> thanks :)
[08:43] <flint> HedgeMage, sorry for the temporal chop, I suddenly gotta make a living on this silly box.... anyway, please email me your document url, i think that it may tie into my plans for work domination... buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
[08:43] <HedgeMage> lol
[08:44] <HedgeMage> flint: I have to find it and pop it online again (probably this weekend)... I lost a lot of data when last we moved, and I'm going to have to grab it from a backup
[08:46] <flint> I try to reflect on the question "our army or their army" :^)
[08:46] <HedgeMage> flint: US Army
[08:46] <HedgeMage> flint: my husband is in the military
[08:47] <flint> HedgeMage, did my time... http://www.flint.com/flint/vita_sf.html  ended up running like a scared rabbit from a burning 5 sided building... not fun.
[08:48] <flint> HedgeMage, ...funny story that... NOT!