/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/04/08/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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mpthrmm03:49
mptAnyone know the command for printing info about the selected window?03:49
mptwhat class it has, what its dimensions are, what process owns it, etc03:49
LaserJockmpt: xprop?04:13
mptLaserJock, great, thanks04:18
LaserJockI've had to look that up myself. I just remember that it starts with an x ;-)04:18
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MadpilotBurgundavia, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/3783608:27
BurgundaviaMadpilot: why is that against ubuntu-meta?08:28
Madpilothmm...it was supposed to be against ubuntu-desktop, because I couldn't find the name of the clock's package...08:28
MadpilotI'll switch it to gnome-panel08:31
Burgundaviaalready done so08:31
robitaillejust wait next year when all the old OSes out there will pick the wrong day of the month to switch time...08:32
robitailleat least BC  will be the same than the US08:33
robhi 08:33
Madpilotrobitaille, yeah, that'll be fun. Or the poor Aussies right now, who had the time-change delayed by the Commonwealth Games, to the confusion of many computers...08:34
robthat was pretty bad.. lots of people got caught out08:35
robitaillepersonally I against the twice-yearly switch; let's pick one system, and stick with it all year round08:35
robI live in a sane state that does just that08:36
robhey if something was put together using sarma would you guys be intrested?08:36
Burgundaviarob: sarma would be cool to play with08:36
Burgundaviacan sarma be merged with that docudo?08:37
robits been stale for about 6 months now, but I finally got around to downloading it and setting up an apache server locally08:37
Burgundaviastale since soc08:37
robI'm not all that failure with docudo08:37
robyeah, I spoke to Danilo who mentioned that08:38
robdo you have a link to docudo?08:38
Burgundaviahttp://www.checkandshare.com/blog/?p=4208:39
robjust found that one :)08:39
robI'll take a look at that one too (didn't know it existed)08:39
Burgundaviajust started08:39
Burgundaviasort of wiki like, but has some features we want, such as being able to call a doc official08:40
robI'll try to set something up for you guys to play with on a server somewhere once I know more and get something working08:40
robah docudo uses svn.. very cool (I was thinking about incorporating it)08:40
Burgundaviadocudo would solve our "svn is only in one place bug", mostly08:43
mdkeNOTABUG?08:43
Burgundaviamdke: ?08:49
mdkeperhaps I just don't understand the bug, but what is wrong with svn being in one place?08:50
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Burgundaviamdke: nothing08:51
mdkeoh08:53
=== mdke is all confused
Burgundaviamdke: I mentioned that docudo solves the issue of having a centralized svn, by allowing easier editing access, both for new people and old08:54
robmdke, it interfaces directly with svn08:55
Burgundaviathe only issue that docudo doesn't solve is that of offline access, which could be fixed by changing the backend to bzr, which would be transparent to most editors08:55
mdkebut if the problem is that svn is centralised, there are a bunch of decentralised version control systems around08:55
mdkeincluding one based on svn08:55
mdkebut I don't think that's the problem, I think we need a centralised system, personally08:56
=== rob gives that topic a wide berth;
mdkeMadpilot, ping?08:57
Madpilotmdke, hi08:57
mdkehiya, just looking at the DG action08:57
mdkeI'm not sure deb files and rpm files belong in the apt section, perhaps we should make another section08:58
mdkeinstalling deb files isn't really a "command line installation" necessarily08:58
Burgundaviawe can split the .deb stuff into command line and non-command line08:59
BurgundaviaI just wanted to keep all the command line stuff safely firewalled in a section so labelled08:59
mdkewe haven't done that elsewhere in the guide though08:59
mdkehmm08:59
Burgundaviawhere we can avoid it, we do09:00
mdkeyes, but we don't firewall it09:00
MadpilotI'm inclined to leave the .deb stuff there, gdebi doesn't really need a section to itself, does it?09:00
mdkeseparating it from dpkg -i wouldn't work, i don't think09:01
Burgundaviawhy not?09:03
mdkeBurgundavia, because it does exactly the same thing, and is only one line long09:03
mdkei think two different sections about installing a deb file would be overkill09:03
Burgundaviawe could have a little section about downloading .debs, why it is bad and then how to instlal them09:03
Burgundaviaby that same logic, why do we talk about apt-get in the desktop guide?09:04
mdkeBurgundavia, that's hardly the same logic, managing programs is a much more complicated and important task, and lots of users prefer apt-get to other alternatives09:05
mdkehow about a section entitled "installing single files" or something better worded, and including the deb and rpm sections in that09:05
Burgundaviahelp is not about why people prefer09:05
Burgundaviaif you prefer apt-get, you likely already know enough that you are not going to look at the desktkop guide09:06
mdkeI don't agree. the entire popularity of ubuntuguide.org was based on using command line expressions that people could pick up from that guide, even where they didn't know it already09:07
MadpilotIt would be simple enough to add another section to the Add Apps chapter, stick the gdebi/dpkg/alien stuff there, and return apt-get to a chapter by itself...09:07
mdkeMadpilot, do you like that solution?09:07
Burgundaviamdke: ubuntuguide.org is a different audience then the desktopguide09:07
mdkeBurgundavia, again, I disagree.09:07
Madpilotmdke, I don't mind it...09:07
roboh, btw mdke regarding your email about About Ubuntu the other day, I'm pretty sure some of that stuff I wrote.. its up to you if you want to include my name anywhere though09:08
mdkeMadpilot, do you prefer another solution?09:08
MadpilotBurgundavia, ubuntuguide.org is exactly our target audience, I'd have thought09:08
mdkeyes it is09:08
mdkerob, thanks09:08
Burgundaviaahhh...09:08
Burgundavianever mind, lets release with what we have and have this discuss for dapper+!09:08
Madpilotmdke, I can't offhand think of a better way to sort it out; I think the gdebi/dpkg stuff should stay in the UDG09:09
mdkeme too09:09
mdkecool, unless we think of a better solution, I'll do that today at some stage09:09
mdkerob, I'll definitely include you, of course09:09
rob:) thanks mdke 09:09
MadpilotI'll do it now, mdke 09:09
mdkerob, any idea if anyone else is missing?09:09
robsome of that stuff came from the user guide, not sure who wrote it though09:10
mdkeI wrote quite a lot of those sections09:11
robyou might be ok then09:11
mdkeand it's been changed enough since then to not worry too much, I guess09:11
Burgundaviamdke: have ever read Paul Graham's piece about hard problems?09:14
mdkeBurgundavia, i don't think so09:14
Burgundaviabasically, he said "ask yourself 'what is the hardest problem in my field' and 'why am I not working on it?'09:15
Burgundaviato me, the hardest problem in our field is not the target audience of ubuntuguide, it is grandma09:16
mdkeok.09:16
Burgundaviathat is where I want the desktop guide to be targeted at09:16
mdketo me, both those audiences can be and are accomodated in the desktop guide09:16
mdkei don't like the phrase "target audience"09:16
Burgundaviaheh09:16
mdkeespecially without any research09:16
Burgundaviaif you don't identify who are writing for, then how the hell can even begin to think about how to meet their needs?09:17
mdkebecause it's important to write in a language which all can understand09:17
Burgundaviait is more than just language09:17
mdkeif grandma speaks english, and ubuntuguide readers speak english, they should both be able to understand the document09:17
Burgundaviait is also some basic assumptions09:17
=== Madpilot ignores the debate, and gets on with actually writing the damn thing... :P
Burgundaviahe09:18
Burgundaviah09:18
mdkewhile we're on the subject though, there are hardly any grandmas who use Ubuntu, and lots of ubuntuguide.org readers09:18
mdkei can say that without any research09:18
Burgundaviayep09:19
Burgundaviahence ubuntuguide is not a hard problem09:19
robdid ubuntuguide ever get updated for dapper?09:19
robitaillehence the docs are not the real problem, but getting new users into Ubuntu is09:19
Burgundaviadidn't even get updated for breezy09:19
Burgundaviayes, once you have them...09:19
mdkerobitaille, exactly09:20
robitailleagree, but that's the 2nd hard problem....09:20
=== Burgundavia is crazy enough to think he can take them both on...
mdkeBurgundavia, you need one before the other09:20
mdkeif you release a bunch of docs which are targetted at your grandmother, and there are no users like that, the users are gonna think you're crazy09:21
Burgundaviahmm. I disagree09:21
mdkenot that you aren't...09:21
mdke:)09:21
Burgundavialol09:21
Burgundaviagot to keep all you sane people off balance09:21
robitaillewe probably need both:  get the users in, but at the moment they are in, you want the docs to be there for them09:21
mdkeabsolutely09:22
robitaillegreat docs on their first Ubuntu day is crucial for the long-time acceptance of this new computer thinggy09:22
Burgundaviawell, soon SILC will have a whole bunch of test subjects using Ubuntu09:22
mdkeanyway for now, it's important that the desktop guide has the widest audience possible09:22
MadpilotWhich file includes the admon tags?09:22
Madpilotwhich xinclude, I mean09:22
mdkeand that for me means being inclusive, not exclusive09:22
mdkeMadpilot, you mean the conventions section? it's in preface i think09:23
mdkeyeah preface.xml09:24
Madpilotin which directory?09:24
mdkecommon/C09:24
Madpilotthanks09:25
mdkeBurgundavia, if you have a mo, can you chip in with your views on the yelp TOC question on the ML? I'd like to know what you (and everyone else) think09:29
MadpilotCommitted revision 2714.09:31
Madpilot - with dpkg/gdebi changes - thoughts?09:31
Burgundaviamdke: can do09:31
Burgundaviamdke: hadn't commented because I saw nothing I didn't like09:31
mdkecool, thanks09:36
mdkeMadpilot, will check later on, got to run to work09:36
mdkebye all09:36
Madpilotnp - later09:37
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mdkeMadpilot, looks good10:19
Madpilotmdke, glad you like it10:19
mdkethanks for doing that10:23
Madpilotno problem10:24
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mdkeBurgundavia, thanks for that reply. I think we should do it too10:55
mdkeMadpilot, "other available documentation" is good, but i wonder if it would cause confusion with the link underneath entitled "Other Documentation"11:10
mdkebhuvan, ping11:11
Madpilotmdke, hmm, can we change that "Other Documentation" link to something more informative?11:11
mdkeMadpilot, we might be able to. "Miscellaneous"?11:12
Madpilot"Misc." is nearly as bad as "Other Docs."11:12
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mdkeMadpilot, i'm open to ideas :)11:13
mdkeso is upstream, probably11:13
mdkebut I think that that categories defies any better definition11:14
Madpilotyeah11:14
Madpilot"Other System Docs"? 11:15
Madpilotnearly as vague as 'Misc'...11:15
mdkeyeah, I don't think that adds anything11:15
mdkei think we may have to leave it as it is, and try and distinguish in the title11:16
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Madpilotyeah, that's a really random mix of docs behind "Other Documentation"...11:17
mdkeok, I'm gonna grep through our docs and remove "Ubuntu Linux" and replace it with "Ubuntu"11:20
Madpilotgood - should have been done ages ago11:22
mdkethe server guide is particularly culpable11:22
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mdkeMadpilot, so any ideas about an alternative title for "Other Documentation", or the general title? why don't you like the word "categories"? 11:38
MadpilotThere's nothing wrong with the word, I just thought "Other available documentation:" was clear enough without 'categories'11:40
mdkeso you don't think it will introduce confusion with the link?11:41
Madpilotit might11:42
Madpilothow about "Other documentation categories:"?11:42
mdkeyes, I think I'd prefer that11:44
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Madpilotnight all11:51
mdkebhuvan, can we remove synaptic from the server guide? same reasons as gnome-app-install12:04
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mdkebhuvan, also, can we remove the wireless section? it's not server related12:41
mdkebhuvan, i've committed some things, lemme know what you think. It's basically proof reading, and removal of those sections12:49
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janimohey, I am trying to add the xubuntu guide to the xubuntu-doc package02:04
janimowanted to make sure that02:04
janimothe things needed to build it are supposed to be xubutu libs and common directories02:05
janimocommon/C/preface.xml references gnome-panel.xml which is in ubuntu 02:05
janimoare the docs aiming to be organized in modular bits or is it assumed that the whole svn checkout is needed to build either part?02:06
janimos/gnome-panel/gnome-menus/02:07
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mdkehi janimo 02:15
mdkeyou don't need the whole of trunk for xubuntu02:16
mdkelet me take a look at common/C/preface.xml, if that needs another file from the ubuntu section, it's a bug02:16
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mdkejanimo, ah, do you mean this line: <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">02:17
mdkewe can take that out completely, I think02:17
mdkeyes, /me does so02:19
mdkejanimo, ok, so all you need is xubuntu/, libs/, build/  and common/, I think02:20
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janimomdke, thanks :)02:27
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bhuvanmdke: ping03:07
mdkebhuvan, pong03:08
bhuvanmdke: i'm ok with your changes. It is perfect03:08
mdkebhuvan, good. How was your talk?03:08
bhuvanit's scheduled on apr 0903:08
bhuvantomorrow i'd be giving a moke-up session at our office!03:09
mdkecool03:09
mdkeit looks good03:09
bhuvanoh ok, thanks03:09
mdkehowto should be two words, though03:09
jsgotangcobhuvan, are you in india at the moment?03:09
bhuvanmdke: ok03:09
bhuvanjsgotangco: yes03:09
jsgotangcobhuvan, are you anywhere near hyderabad?03:09
bhuvanjsgotangco: in chennai. it is 600kms far away from hyderabad ?03:10
jsgotangcoi have no idea i'll be in hyderabad in a few weeks03:10
bhuvanoh glad to hear03:10
jsgotangco600kms that is far03:10
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mdkebhuvan, the other thing I've done is to replace "Ubuntu Linux" with "Ubuntu", you might wanna do that in your talk too03:17
bhuvanyeah, i noticed; i'll replace03:18
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mdkeompaul, are you paul o'malley?04:12
mdkecourse you are.04:13
ompaulhehe04:13
mdkeompaul, do you see bug 27906 on an up to date system?04:13
ompaulup to date 5.10 it exists04:13
mdkeupgraded?04:13
mdkejeez04:13
ompaulI added kubuntu late laste week04:13
mdkewhat version kubuntu-docs do you have?04:13
ompaulno fresh install and all updates 04:13
ompaullets find oout04:14
=== ompaul dives into apt-get
mdkedpkg -l kubuntu-docs04:14
ompaul Installed: 5.10-0.6.104:14
ompaulapt-cache policy kubuntu-docs04:15
ompaul:-))))04:15
mdkehmm04:15
mdkeand what's the bug exactly?04:15
mdkels /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home04:17
mdkeompaul, ^04:21
ompaulfirefox-index.html  index.html04:21
mdkeand the bug is?04:22
ompaulits not pointing to there 04:22
ompaulhmm04:22
=== ompaul looks to see where the browser points
ompaulfire up a willing browser responding with a roar 04:22
ompaulokay I repointed FF to packages.ubuntu.com - it still exists for epiphany04:24
ompaul/usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html04:24
ompaulit claims does not exist04:24
ompaulnow when I put on kubuntu it made the web page blank and gave me a dialogue on firefox which required mouse use so I changed it to point to packages.ubuntu.com04:25
ompaullrwxrwxrwx  1 root root    34 2006-02-20 20:37 index.html -> /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage04:26
mdkeok, keep following that04:26
ompaulI wonder if that has anything do t with the problem04:26
mdkels -l /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage04:26
ompaullrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 59 2006-03-19 21:11 /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage -> /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/about-kubuntu/index.html04:26
mdkekeep going04:27
ompaulls: /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/about-kubuntu/index.html: No such file or directory04:27
ompaullets look over there04:27
mdkegood idea04:27
ompaulmind a 4 line spam?04:28
mdkenope04:28
ompaulwell its 6 :-)04:28
ompaulompaul@dhcppc0:/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en$ ls -al ku*04:28
ompaultotal 4404:28
ompauldrwxr-xr-x   2 root root  4096 2006-03-19 21:10 .04:28
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  66 root root  4096 2006-03-23 09:29 ..04:28
ompaullrwxrwxrwx   1 root root     9 2006-03-19 21:10 common -> ../common04:28
ompaul-rw-r--r--   1 root root  4872 2005-10-05 20:18 index.cache.bz204:28
ompaul-rw-r--r--   1 root root  8422 2005-10-05 14:11 index.docbook04:28
ompaul-rw-r--r--   1 root root 15170 2005-10-05 14:11 kuser.png04:28
ompaulompaul@dhcppc0:/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en$04:28
ompaulthere is no kbuntu 04:29
ompaulkubuntu even04:29
mdkehuh04:29
ompaul/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/khelpcenter/kubuntu/about-kubuntu/C/index.html04:29
ompaullook at the previous path, I could only cd as far as en04:30
ompaulhang on a sec pastebin04:30
ompaulhttp://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/11378  nick buggy04:31
ompaullines 63 64 65 tell a story04:32
ompaulin  /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/about-kubuntu/index.html04:32
ompaulthere is no kubuntu directory04:32
mdkeyes04:32
mdkedo ls /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/khelpcenter04:32
mgalvinmdke: you gonna be around for a while?04:33
mdkemgalvin, we can make an appointment :)04:33
mdkewhat's up?04:33
ompaulmdke, it exists there http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/1137904:34
ompaulompaul@dhcppc0:/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/khelpcenter/kubuntu$ ls -al04:35
ompaultotal 2404:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  6 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 .04:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  8 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 ..04:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 about-kubuntu04:35
mgalvinmdke: :)... was just talking with Jane... i wanted to get with you to discuss that stuff a bit, i gotta run to a quick work meeting, be back in like 20 min04:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  6 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 images04:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 kquickguide04:35
ompauldrwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4096 2006-03-19 21:10 krelease-notes04:35
ompaulompaul@dhcppc0:/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/khelpcenter/kubuntu$04:35
mdkemgalvin, ok, i just mailed about it, apparently the flash intro isn't happening for dapper now04:35
mdkeompaul, that's what I wanted, thanks. Damn that's a stupid bug04:35
ompaulmdke, its a dead bug04:36
ompaul(or it is now :)04:36
mdkei dunno, it might be more serious04:36
ompaulwell it might tie into the bug I stuck in last night04:36
ompaullet me get it for you04:36
=== ompaul felt ill when I thought about it
jjesseisn't that an old problme? the wrong link for the home page of firefox? 04:38
ompaulBug 3769904:38
mdkejjesse, yes, it looks like there is a stupid error in the latest package we did04:38
jjessed'oh :)04:39
ompaulthat might have something 04:39
ompaulmdke, its not a doc team think but damn its ugly and it impacts what one sees04:39
mdkeno, I think that's unrelated04:39
ompauls/think/thing04:39
jjessei never noticed because i don't use firefox04:40
ompauljjesse, lets put it this way I found a way to make a 12 million pound computer run out of spool space in less than 20 minutes :) 04:41
ompaulI should not be let near computers :)04:42
ompaulthat value was 5 years ago or there abouts04:42
ompaulmost likely you could do what was done with it on linux with 2 high end p4/AMD PCs and a couple of terrabytes of raid04:43
ompaulbut someone had the budget04:43
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mdkeompaul, ok, thanks for your help04:49
ompaulmdke, its all one club :-)04:52
ompaulmdke, is there a doc anywhere that says Group A own this which has those parts List Z? 04:54
mdke??04:54
ompaulis there a document anywhere that says "Team A"  owns this which consists of these "List Z"? 04:55
mdkewhat do you mean by "this"?04:55
mdkepackages?04:56
ompaulthis might be ubuntu-base kubuntu-desktop or their components - yes packages04:56
ompaulI rewrote that 5 times before you said packages :)04:56
mdkei suppose looking at the "Maintainer" tag in apt-cache show packagename might be what you're looking for, but I'm still not sure I understand04:57
ompaulokay if I step back from the question, launchpad when I wanted to define a bug I find it difficult to point a finger to the correct location04:59
ompaulso I guess04:59
mdkesometimes it isn't easy to figure out what package a bug belongs to. You just have to do your best, and hope it will get reassigned, if it's wrong04:59
ompaulperhaps, I will think about it and agree with you in an hour and four minutes :)05:01
mdkeok...05:01
ompaulI have to convince myself there is no better way :)05:02
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trappistthe boss is working from home today, so I can get away with spending a little time on docs ;)  what's in need of proofreading?06:35
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Burgworktrappist, anything and everything, but I think the packaging guide and hte server guide need more work06:36
mdkeyeah06:37
trappistI'm all over the server guide - I dunno what parts of the packaging guide are ready for review, and which are being worked on06:37
trappistthere's a page somewhere for that :)  I'll assume it's up to date06:37
mdkei did some playing around with the package management section of the server guide today, you can start after that06:37
trappiston the serverguide, I want to focus on fixing up the apache2 section before doing any more proofreading.  I think that's pretty critical.06:38
LaserJocktrappist: have at sections marked as "Awaiting Review" at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/pg-report.html06:39
trappistLaserJock: ossum06:39
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mdketrappist, yeah, apache is critical, looks like you already made a good start on it06:40
trappistyeah I'm afraid to see how much more there is, but that felt like a good start06:40
mdketrappist, the server guide in general is quite basic, so no need to cover _every_ apache configuration option, unless you want to :)06:47
trappistI know almost exactly enough about apache to keep it at its current level of detail, so that's what I'm aiming for06:47
mdkecool06:48
mdkejjesse, you need some special tools to build pdfs, I'm afraid08:00
mdkeand pdfs are included in the "make website" thing08:01
mdkeoh, trappist ^^08:01
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Burgworkmdke, is that the non-free crap?08:05
mdkeit's non-free, anyway08:11
LaserJockbut very cool 08:11
mdkeyeah, pretty cool08:17
trappistLaserJock: you're sure about "any" vs. "all" for the Architecture on a package?  I can't find any docs on it, but it seems like "any" would be arch-independent and "all" would mean we're building binaries for each supported arch.08:45
trappistdoes seem to be right.  I would have made it the other way :)08:46
LaserJocktrappist: let me check, I get them confused sometimes08:46
LaserJockall is arch-independent and any is for all arches08:47
LaserJockhttp://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Architecture08:47
trappistcool.  your doc is right then, but I think somebody screwed that up way back when - the nomenclature is counterintuitive, at least to me.08:47
LaserJockwell, it has confused quite a few MOTUs at times ;-)08:48
LaserJockI think the logic goes something like:08:48
LaserJock"all" package will work on all arches without rebuilding08:49
LaserJock"any" packages are able to be built on any arch08:49
trappistthat hurts my head08:50
LaserJockbut I think I would have done something like "indp" instead of "all"08:50
LaserJocklol, welcome to packaging :-)08:51
trappistyeah that would have been more transparent08:52
LaserJockI think the concept of arch-dependent and arch-independent is much clearer than any and all08:53
trappistyeah, since that's what any and all is supposed to mean08:53
LaserJockbut alas, the great Debian gods in the sky didn't see fit to make it so08:55
LaserJockand we must submit ourselves to the Great Law of the Debian Policy ;-)08:55
trappistI've always wondered, but have been afraid to ask anybody who might know, whether we want to stay a debian spinoff or eventually go out on our own like mandrake from redhat.08:57
LaserJockI think that would depend very greatly on the amount of manpower we have08:59
Burgworktrappist, sticking with debian is quite important08:59
LaserJockright now we have nowhere near the man power needed for that08:59
Burgworkregardless of manpower, hiving off like that is not politically acceptable08:59
LaserJockwell, yes there is that too :-)09:00
trappistwe don't have all the same policies as debian, and it's not too hard to imagine that that could lead to increasingly divergent packages and configurations that would eventually make it mutually beneficial for us to become more of a fork09:01
crimsunit's actually quite difficult to imagine that.09:01
crimsunremember that out of 17000 packages, how many do we support directly in main?09:01
Burgworkaround 3k I think09:02
crimsunwhich, at best, leaves 14k for us to pull from Debian09:02
Burgworklast I checked, about 10% of all the packages in ubuntu had a -XubuntuX version number09:03
trappistthat does seem like a manageable number09:03
LaserJockand I imagine that number could drop if we were better about getting things upstream (and having them accepted of course)09:03
crimsunupstream Debian or upstream upstream?09:04
LaserJockboth09:04
crimsunthen we're still bound to Debian09:04
LaserJocklike these .desktop files for instance09:04
crimsun(and really, that's the way it should be)09:04
LaserJockI'm just saying we could probably decrease our delta a bit09:05
crimsunno objections there at all09:05
LaserJockso in the end I think there isn't really any reason to fork from Debian09:06
crimsunwe can't, really, if we expect anything to scale09:06
trappistthere would be an insane amount of duplicated effort, to be sure09:06
crimsunI don't know about you, but I have 24 measley hours, and with our numbers, we can't maintain 14k packages all with deltas.09:06
LaserJockexactly my point09:07
LaserJockbut in the end the policies aren't that much different09:08
LaserJockA good package in Debian will make a good package in Ubuntu. I't might need a tweak here or there for deps for example09:08
LaserJockbut it seems like packages flow fairly easily both ways09:09
trappistI don't know where all the divergence in the cupsys package came from, but I'm very, very glad to see the recent changes there, which iirc are more in line with debian09:09
trappist<3 pitti09:09
crimsuntrappist: that doesn't happen to be your changelog thread on u-d, does it?09:10
trappistyeah that's me09:10
crimsunsigh. It's not about attribution, though it's nice. It's about putting work into it. Besides, there's a bug reference in the changelog, and your name is attached to the bug report.09:11
trappistyeah, if somebody really wants to know, he can find out it was my patch.  but attribution is part of my motivation for putting the work in.09:12
trappistmy motives are less than 100% selfless09:12
trappistbut I don't think I'm asking for much09:12
mdkehow about including a patch on the changelog, trappist :)10:15
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trappistmdke: yeah there is that.  I've had some frustrations with debdiff where my diff *only* has the changelog delta.10:26
mdkei don't know much about it, I always do apt-get source ; cp source source-new ; changes ; diff -ur source-new source > my.patch10:30
LaserJockyikes10:30
mdkethat way if I change the changelog, it comes out10:30
LaserJockdebdiff all the way :-)10:31
mdkeI've only ever done patches for ubuntu-docs and the occasional .desktop file though10:31
LaserJocktrappist: a debdiff is the best way of getting your changelog in10:32
LaserJocktrappist: because if it is good, then the sponsor doesn't have to touch it, just sign it and upload10:32
trappistLaserJock: yeah I always try that first.  but as I said sometimes it doesn't work out, and I'd rather get a patch uploaded than not10:33
LaserJocktrappist: there must be something wrong with what you are doing. debdiff has worked every single time for me10:34
LaserJockI can help you next time if you want (and I'm around)10:35
trappistI'll try pinging you next time.  it seems pretty straightforward, though.  I edit some file under src/ and I edit the changelog.  I say debuild -S then debdiff this.dsc that.dsc and I get only the changelog changes.10:36
LaserJockhmm, editing files in src/ is generally not the best way to go, but it should come out in the .diff.gz10:37
LaserJockI'd have to take a look10:37
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