[12:07] <frank_> robotgeek: ok. I can send the patch to mailing list
[12:08] <frank_> robotgeek: which ever you prefer
[12:08] <robotgeek> frank_: send it to list (public record of contribution)
[12:08] <frank_> robotgeek: ok
[12:08] <robotgeek> hey unclocked Kyral 
[12:09] <Kyral> huh?
[12:09] <Kyral> unclocked?
[12:09] <robotgeek> uncloaked, err
[12:09] <Kyral> yah
[12:09] <Kyral> I forgot to set my IDENTIFY command to fire off
[12:10] <Kyral> hmm
[12:10] <Kyral> this Beyond patchset seems a little more...snappy
[12:13] <frank_> robotgeek: I don't know if the patch made it to the list. I just changed email
[12:14] <robotgeek> frank_: did you subscribe and stuff?
[12:15] <frank_> robotgeek: well I had subscribed before. I changed my email address in my existing account. I don't know if that worked
[12:15] <robotgeek> frank_: probably not, don't get anything here :)
[12:15] <frank_> robotgeek: ok I just got the confirmation email. it just took a while :)
[12:16] <frank_> robotgeek: I can send it again. It might double post
[12:17] <robotgeek> frank_: heh, double post then and keep it under 40 kb :)
[12:23] <frank_> robotgeek: this time the patch should make it to the list. anything else I can do?
[12:24] <robotgeek> frank_: just look at the guide as a whole, and see if we can polish in any way?
[12:30] <robotgeek> frank_: havent received it yet
[12:31] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I'm taking care of Red_Herring ;-)
[12:31] <frank_> robotgeek: it should have worked.
[12:32] <Burgwork> LaserJock, with a bat I hope :)
[12:32] <robotgeek> frank_: maybe cc to me?
[12:33] <robotgeek> or resend, err
[12:35] <trappist> I've got a validation failure from an xref to another file in the same manual.  how should a file know to include (or parse?) another file to resolve xrefs?
[12:36] <robotgeek> trappist: try to validate the main document
[12:36] <trappist> in the packaging guide that should be packagingguide.xml?
[12:37] <robotgeek> trappist: yup
[12:37] <trappist> gotcha.  that validates.
[12:38] <frank_> robotgeek: ok I sent it again with you as cc
[12:40] <robotgeek> frank_: heh, did not get it. is it working :)
[12:41] <frank_> robotgeek: I have no idea. yahoo is lazy
[12:42] <robotgeek> frank_: okay, i guess i'll just wait
[12:47] <frank_> robotgeek: If I proof read another section, will you have time to incude it? how hard is the deadline?
[12:47] <robotgeek> frank_: yes, we'll have time
[12:48] <frank_> robotgeek: which one should I do?
[12:48] <robotgeek> frank_: did you find any changes to make. 
[12:49] <LaserJock> trappist: wow, you're touching my baby ;-)
[12:51] <frank_> robotgeek: I'm sure there are small things anywhere... I could do common-tasks
[12:51] <robotgeek> frank_: cool
[12:53] <LaserJock> Burgwork: hmmm, I think I should have taken your suggestion :s
[12:54] <Burgwork> LaserJock, indeed
[12:55] <robotgeek> frank_: still not received, is this from your original email address?
[12:55] <frank_> robotgeek: I tried from both
[12:55] <robotgeek> frank_: finally, recvd
[01:05] <robotgeek> frank_: mind if i add your name to the list of contributors?
[01:06] <frank_> sure: Franois LeBlanc
[01:07] <robotgeek> frank_: will be up in next patchset :)
[01:08] <frank_> robotgeek: cool
[01:17] <avoine> if i want to help translate xml file like the Ubuntu Start Guide i have to search it in rosetta or he is somewhere else?
[01:20] <Burgwork> hmm, this lulu thing is getting bigger than I expected
[01:21] <robotgeek> avoine: it will be uploaded to rosetta shortly
[01:21] <jjesse> avoine: the docs haven't been uploaded yet
[01:21] <avoine> ok
[01:30] <frank_> robotgeek: it's taking time but I'm progressing. when do you need it for?
[01:30] <robotgeek> frank_: jjesse http://www.robotgeek.org/kubuntu/ch05.html
[01:31] <robotgeek> frank_: official deadline is half an hour away, maybe by tommorow?
[01:31] <frank_> robotgeek: oh. I'll finish now. but not in half an hour ;)
[01:32] <robotgeek> frank_: how is the reorg, look betteR?
[01:32] <jjesse> frank__: don't worry i' should have a bunch comming in tomorrow when i get to work and have a high speed connection
[01:33] <frank_> robotgeek: it looks better yeah
[01:38] <jjesse> robotgeek`did you update the desktopgudie for add/remove programs?
[01:38] <robotgeek> jjesse: yes
[01:39] <jjesse> do you like it?  i perfer adept and apt or it
[01:40] <robotgeek> i just use apt, it does look easy to use
[01:41] <jjesse> i struggle with it, i can't find all packages for some reason
[01:41] <robotgeek> jjesse: http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch03s02.html 
[01:42] <robotgeek> jjesse: we can mention it, and mornfall can fix bugs across time :)
[01:42] <jjesse> robotgeek: but i'm struggeling describing it for my chapter:(
[01:44] <robotgeek> jjesse: i wrote something in about 15 minutes, copied over some stuff from UDG too :)
[02:04] <frank_> is there a shockwave plugin for konqueror? I don't think so
[02:06] <robotgeek> frank_: doesn't flashplayer isntall that?
[02:07] <frank_> robotgeek: there is a flash player. but some shockwave things are impossible to play in linux I think.
[02:07] <robotgeek> frank_: hmm, okay. 
[02:08] <robotgeek> frank_: if you make the change in the patch, i'll commit tommorow?
[02:09] <frank_> robotgeek: ok.
[02:09] <robotgeek> frank_: great, i gotta run now. cook food :)
[02:10] <frank_> robotgeek: ok ;)
[02:55] <frank_> WINE is not an emulator, but what is it exactly? in 2 words
[02:58] <jjesse> winows emulator
[02:59] <frank_> no: Wine Is Not an Emulator
[03:00] <jsgotangco> reverse_engineered_windows_subsystem
[03:00] <jsgotangco> hah 1 word
[03:00] <frank_> jsgotangco: lol. yeah
[03:01] <jsgotangco> but yeah its not a windows emulator per se
[03:10] <trappist> it's a win32 api implementation for unix
[03:11] <trappist> it's an emulator by the dictionary definition of the word, but not the traditional IT definition, in that it doesn't emulate hardware
[03:14] <jsgotangco> trappist, that's 7 words
[03:14] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:20] <LaserJock> trappist: ping?
[03:20] <trappist> pong
[03:21] <LaserJock> trappist: did you just fix grammar/spelling on the packaging guide?
[03:21] <trappist> not all of it, but yeah
[03:21] <trappist> why?
[03:21] <trappist> I'm on bugs.xml now
[03:22] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to get a run down of what you are doing
[03:22] <trappist> how do you mean?
[03:22] <LaserJock> why did you change the appendix to a chapter?
[03:23] <LaserJock> doh, need to read the next commit ;-)
[03:23] <trappist> I changed that back - it didn't validate, but then I learned to validate the parent instead, so I changed it b... yeah :)
[03:24] <LaserJock> did you have problems with indentation?
[03:24] <trappist> here and there, maybe.  I wasn't aiming to mess with it, since afaik we have no standards for it, but I tried to keep it sorta consistent.
[03:25] <LaserJock> well, I've had a hard time with consistency so any help is apprecitated. I'm still trying to learn how to use vim :-)
[03:26] <LaserJock> and I copy-n-paste from other people sometimes
[03:26] <trappist> it makes it a little easier if you have set ai, set ts=4 and set sw=4 in your .vimrc
[03:26] <trappist> for copy and paste:
[03:26] <trappist> put set pastetoggle=<F12> in your .vimrc, and hit F12 in insert mode, and vim will stop messing with your indentation until you hit F12 again
[03:27] <LaserJock> do you use tabs or spaces, generally?
[03:28] <trappist> tabs
[03:29] <LaserJock> hmm, it seems like lots of problems with commas
[03:29] <trappist> yeah :)
[03:30] <LaserJock> I haven't had to remember so much grammar since grade school :-)
[03:30] <frank_> when I build the desktop guide, can I make something other than html?  like a pdf?
[03:32] <LaserJock> frank_: pdf's are a bit harder because you need some non-free stuff
[03:32] <frank_> LaserJock: really? I thought pdf was an open format
[03:33] <frank_> well postscript then
[03:33] <LaserJock> it is, but the app that is used to create them isn't exactly
[03:34] <LaserJock> fop is what you need
[03:35] <frank_> what is the app that makes pdfs? just curious
[03:36] <LaserJock> http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/
[03:37] <LaserJock> if you look at ubuntu/Makefile there is a rule to make pdfs
[03:37] <LaserJock> but you need fop.sh I think
[03:38] <frank_> LaserJock: ok
[03:40] <frank_> LaserJock: so this uses fop to make pdfs but ghostscript can make them completely freely, right? just not in this case
[03:41] <LaserJock> frank_: it is more involved than just "making a pdf"
[03:41] <frank_> LaserJock: ok I admit my ignorance ;)
[03:42] <LaserJock> frank_: I think the only reason we don't have fop is because it is java-based which is a problem for Ubuntu since Sun's Java can't be included in the repos
[03:42] <frank_> LaserJock: well once gij get better, maybe it will be
[03:42] <LaserJock> frank_: lol, I don't know much about it myself
[03:42] <trappist> I think it's because it's part of the ant project, which has an iffy license
[03:42] <LaserJock> oh, well that could be too
[03:43] <LaserJock> anyway, I think you can download if from http://www.wmwweb.com/apache/xmlgraphics/fop/
[03:43] <LaserJock> and then you can just run "make pdf"
[03:44] <LaserJock> I'm trying it myself right now
[03:45] <frank_> did my patch  [patch]  proofread common-tasks.xml for kubuntu desktop guide   make it to the list this time?
[03:45] <frank_> my new yahoo mail account doesn't seem to be sending anything
[03:48] <jsgotangco> frank_, there's no patch sent to the list yet
[03:49] <frank_> gah...
[04:08] <LaserJock> trappist: thanks :-)
[04:08] <LaserJock> trappist: have you gone through the whole thing?
[04:08] <trappist> on the last file now
[04:08] <trappist> ubuntu.xml
[04:08] <LaserJock> great
[04:08] <LaserJock> now I hope I don't mess up what you have done
[04:25] <trappist> heh
[04:27] <LaserJock> frank_: yeah! I see an email ;-)
[04:27] <frank_> there! gmail can actually send emails. My new yahoo.ca account couldn't :(
[04:28] <frank_> can we see preliminary versions of the Official Ubuntu Book?
[04:29] <Kyral> All Members should get a free copy :P
[04:29] <jjesse> then how would they make money?
[04:30] <jjesse> :)
[04:30] <Kyral> How many members are there compared to users? :P
[04:30] <LaserJock> jjesse: I was just going to say that ;-)
[04:31] <Kyral> Meh :P
[04:32] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:32] <Kyral> It was an idea lol
[04:33] <jsgotangco> if canonical can send a million cds to anyone, it won't go down the drain sending 100+ copies of the book to the 100+ members listed in LP lol
[04:33] <jjesse> don't forget prentince hall needs some money
[04:33] <Kyral> yup yup
[04:34] <jsgotangco> jjesse, im sure you're very much aware that the book publisher sends a good number of books to the author for free
[04:35] <jjesse> jsgotangco: yeah i know
[04:35] <jsgotangco> its up to the author to give them away or sell them at a lower price
[04:35] <jsgotangco> even recording artists have the same scheme
[04:35] <jsgotangco> btw you guys might be intested at this
[04:35] <jsgotangco> http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/
[04:36] <jsgotangco> most of whats included in the docs were results from the experiment last year
[04:47] <trappist> LaserJock: got a sec?
[04:47] <LaserJock> sure do
[04:47] <trappist> need to know what you're meaning to say here, re: merging with debian...
[04:47] <trappist> The merging process involves looking at the changes to both the Debian and Ubuntu source packages and determining.
[04:47] <trappist> determining what?
[04:48] <LaserJock> what has changed
[04:48] <trappist> great! thanks
[04:48] <LaserJock> what stuff is specific to Ubuntu
[04:49] <LaserJock> so when we go to sync from Debian and there is an existing Ubuntu version of the package there are two options
[04:49] <trappist> right.  I follow you now.
[04:49] <LaserJock> 1) Debian has made all the changes we did and we can use there packages directly. We call that a sync
[04:50] <LaserJock> 2) We need to carry our changes to the new packages. That is a merge
[04:50] <trappist> right.  got that from the previous section.
[04:50] <trappist> s/section/paragraph/
[04:50] <LaserJock> k
[04:53] <jjesse> what's the address for reporting bugs again?  launchpad.net/malone correct?
[04:53] <trappist> yeah
[04:56] <LaserJock> it kinda depends
[04:57] <jjesse> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs  ?
[04:57] <trappist> LaserJock: did you happen to check with barry defreese whether he's ok with having his email addy in these docs (as an example)?
[04:57] <trappist> do you think I should change it to something made up?
[04:57] <jjesse> make it billg@microsoft.com :)
[04:57] <trappist> that works :)
[04:58] <LaserJock> trappist: umm, well that doesn't work so well
[04:58] <trappist> why's that?
[04:58] <LaserJock> I used the actual diffs
[04:58] <trappist> right, but is that necessary, do you think?
[04:59] <LaserJock> maybe not, but his email is all over the package anyway. I can ask him I suppose
[04:59] <trappist> even if you're hoping for the user to follow along and get more or less the same results as in the doc, I don't think anyone will get lost if something like that is altered.
[04:59] <LaserJock> I hadn't really thought about it
[04:59] <LaserJock> I've just been using verbatim what you get
[04:59] <trappist> I'd html-entity-ize it to keep it from the spam spiders, but I'm pretty sure the html conversion will undo that
[05:00] <robotgeek> frank23: same as frank_ ?
[05:00] <LaserJock> trappist: well, it can't be any worse than it already is but we can certainly change it, to be safe
[05:00] <trappist> LaserJock: I'll leave it alone for now.  I figure he won't mind - his email address gets plenty of exposure as it is.
[05:01] <trappist> but it'd probably be nice to check with him
[05:01] <LaserJock> it really doesn't hurt to change it, I was just using the diff's verbatim
[05:01] <trappist> aight
[05:02] <robotgeek> trappist: who, billy G?
[05:02] <trappist> heh
[05:02] <LaserJock> i'd prefer not him
[05:02] <LaserJock> he might claim the packaging guide in a few years ;-)
[05:02] <robotgeek> it would be funny!
[05:03] <trappist> LaserJock: I was going with that for the humor angle, but since it's your doc I'm going to leave it as-is so you can put what you like there
[05:03] <trappist> if 6 months from now bill gates is regarded as kindly as hitler, I don't want it to be my fault that he's in our docs :)
[05:04] <robotgeek> cptn@killklippy.com
[05:05] <trappist> robotgeek: http://linuxkungfu.org/images/shots/?image=39
[05:06] <robotgeek> trappist: http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
[05:07] <LaserJock> ok, I'm locking myself in the computer room. I have to finish this tonight :/
[05:07] <trappist> robotgeek: that's awesome.
[05:08] <trappist> LaserJock: yeah I just had to tell my baby sister to "kick rocks, I got a string freeze"
[05:10] <LaserJock> hmm, how do you get folding to work?
[05:10] <robotgeek> LaserJock: zM
[05:10] <trappist> depends on how you want it to work.  I say set foldmethod=marker and use {{{ and }}} foldmarkers
[05:11] <jjesse> robotgeek: i looked through the add/remove programs section of desktop guide and it lokos great
[05:11] <frank23> robotgeek: yeah
[05:11] <robotgeek> jjesse: cool, thanks
[05:11] <robotgeek> frank23: heh, confusing!
[05:12] <jjesse> also updated release notes to match the new author guidelines and also about kubuntu guide... will commit tomorrow at work
[05:12] <jjesse> also about ubuntu had references to bugzilla which i changed and will comitt tomorrow at work
[05:12] <robotgeek> jjesse: good work!
[05:13] <jjesse> also finished kubuntu chapter for the book... hopefully not too much will change
[05:13] <robotgeek> jjesse: always worried!
[05:14] <jjesse> robotgeek: things look great good job
[05:14] <trappist> I'm done with the packaging guide.  any votes on what should be proofread next, or should I just keep going in pseudorandom order?
[05:14] <robotgeek> jjesse: ty
[05:15] <trappist> (I'm gonna be a linux guru by the time I'm done proofreading all this)
[05:16] <LaserJock> trappist: did you get an overall feel for the difficulty level?
[05:17] <frank23> robotgeek: I can do more proofreading tomorrow for kdg if it's not too late
[05:18] <robotgeek> frank23: that would be great
[05:18] <robotgeek> frank23: since i am guessing that most of the changes will be minor, i don't think there will be an issue
[05:18] <frank23> robotgeek: ok. Yeah I won't add any sections or anything
[05:19] <LaserJock> robotgeek: what does your .vim/xmlfold.vim file look like?
[05:20] <robotgeek> frank23: thanks! i am too sapped right now to think
[05:20] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i think its a plugin i got from vim.sf.net
[05:20] <LaserJock> k
[05:20] <robotgeek> LaserJock: http://robotgeek.org/dotfiles/vim
[05:21] <LaserJock> oh, nice. thanks
[05:22] <trappist> LaserJock: yeah, and a great overview of the process.  I think I'm right smack in the middle of your target audience.  Great doc!
[05:23] <trappist> robotgeek: tomorrow's not too late to get some proofreading in?  I don't have to stay up all night?
[05:23] <LaserJock> trappist: it flowed ok? It has been pretty patchwork for me so far trying to get it put together
[05:23] <robotgeek> trappist: well, most of my major changes are already in. minor changes are ok, as long as they don't change structure maybe (not affect translators)
[05:23] <trappist> LaserJock: yeah I think it's well laid out and has a good narrative flow for a tech doc
[05:24] <LaserJock> ok, great. thanks for checking it over. I'm just starting in this whole doc writing thing.
[05:24] <trappist> robotgeek: right, that's what I was wondering - string freeze doesn't necessarily affect proofreading changes then?
[05:24] <trappist> LaserJock: the language is a little less formal in some places than in some of the rest of the docs, but I think that's a good thing.
[05:25] <LaserJock> trappist: I think those are usually ones that I got from somebody else. I tried to go over them to keep a consistent voice
[05:26] <trappist> yeah I think you pulled that off nicely
[05:27] <robotgeek> LaserJock: if i manage to package stuff nicely, it will be thanks to you :)
[05:30] <LaserJock> well, then you can thank the MOTU community. I have really learned a lot through this process
[05:30] <jjesse> wow my brain is fried, have a good night i'm off to bed :)
[05:30] <LaserJock> cya jjesse 
[05:31] <frank23> robotgeek:  60 % Nerd, 30% Geek, 26% Dork  hehe
[05:31] <robotgeek> frank23: heh
[05:33] <robotgeek> frank23: lots of blog there :)
[05:59] <jsgotangco> hrrmmmm
[05:59] <robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
[06:00] <jsgotangco> that comment on bluefish is wrong
[06:00] <jsgotangco> bluefish can do docbook
[06:00] <jsgotangco> it has docbook tags built in and has tag completion
[06:01] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: wiki :)
[06:03] <robotgeek> that's why it helps to be a vim "enthusiast"
[06:12] <LaserJock> I like bluefish for a gui xml editor
[06:12] <LaserJock> well, I guess that is second to gvim ;-)
[06:13] <robotgeek> :)
[06:13] <jsgotangco> its fast if it only validated :/
[06:17] <LaserJock> hmm, that would be a nice key mapping to add to the .vimrc
[06:18] <robotgeek> LaserJock: :)
[06:18] <LaserJock> a key to run ~/ubuntu-doc/validate.sh
[06:18] <LaserJock> and svn commit
[06:18] <LaserJock> and ...
[07:56] <LaserJock> arrghh, how do I put in a ; ?
[07:59] <highvoltage> you press : without pressing shift :)
[07:59] <highvoltage> ( lame joke ^^^^^ )
[08:01] <highvoltage> ouch! how many trees did you kill to print that!?
[08:01] <LaserJock> lol
[08:01] <LaserJock> you would think they would have a list of those somewhere
[08:02] <highvoltage> list of trees that were killed?
[08:02] <LaserJock> lol, no
[08:03] <LaserJock> usually they tell you how to get the characters that have special meaning
[08:07] <LaserJock> crap, I can find how to do < and & but not ;
[08:13] <Madpilot> hi all
[08:14] <LaserJock> doh, it wasn't complaining *about* the ; , but about the *lack of* ;  :(
[08:16] <LaserJock> trappist: my new name and email addy are : Captain Packager <packager@coolness.com>
[08:28] <LaserJock> btw, hi Madpilot 
[08:31] <mdke> morning
[08:32] <manicka> afternoon :)
[08:33] <mdke> :)
[08:34] <mdke> how's it going in doc-land?
[08:34] <rob> hello
[08:34] <mdke> I see trappist has proof read the entire svn repository :)
[08:34] <rob> very nice!
[08:35] <mdke> how are we looking on the old freeze?
[08:35] <mdke> couple of tweaks still needed on the desktop guide, I think
[08:36] <Madpilot> my poor inbox has been flooded with commit reports :P
[08:36] <rob> mdke, any more thoughts on publishing the desktop guide?
[08:37] <mdke> rob, I'll mail about it.
[08:38] <rob> ok 
[08:38] <mdke> bottom line is that I'm sorry if Corey is embarassed by the guide, but i think he will be equally embarassed by publishing the guide online and in the distro
[08:38] <rob> it generally will only be available online unless someone comes up with the fee to get an ISBN number
[08:39] <mdke> I certainly don't think it would be a good idea to do that
[08:39] <mdke> Madpilot, :) I'm gonna have a last look at the DG and try and sort out 3d graphics, and dvd. Anything else needs looking at?
[08:39] <Madpilot> not that I can think of - not that we can get done before the freeze, anyway... ;)
[08:40] <rob> mdke, I think his feelings are somewhat irrelivent due to the obvious conflict of intrest he has here
[08:40] <Madpilot> btw, the ATI 3d stuff should work, it's identical to the Breezy info and it doesn't look like the packages have changed much/at all
[08:40] <mdke> rob, I don't think so.
[08:40] <rob> s/irrelivent/irrelevant
[08:40] <Burgundavia> rob: there is conflict on interest
[08:40] <LaserJock> mdke: so when is the official doc freeze?
[08:40] <Burgundavia> rob: is no, I should say
[08:40] <Burgundavia> rob: I am not getting royalties from the book, so it does not matter how many copies sell
[08:41] <mdke> LaserJock, about 8 hours ago. But we're quite flexible. I'll certainly check if there is anything each author wants to do still on each guide before making translations available
[08:41] <rob> Burgundavia, but you are being paid for writing it..
[08:41] <Burgundavia> rob: as are a whole bunch of other people in the doc team
[08:41] <rob> hence, conflict of interest
[08:41] <Burgundavia> if I was getting royalties, maybe
[08:42] <LaserJock> mdke: how long do you think we could realistically push the packaging guide and how much can we change after we give it to the translation teams?
[08:42] <rob> from what I've seen, the only people vocal about it who are being paid in any way is yourself Burgundavia 
[08:42] <Burgundavia> rob: that I am working on the ubuntu book is completely not relevant to why I am objecting to the Lulu thing
[08:43] <mdke> rob, I don't think it's useful to accuse Corey of being biased, we need to try and answer his complaints. Don't forget the code of conduct tells us to avoid discussions which are personal
[08:43] <mdke> LaserJock, I don't know. what's the status?
[08:43] <LaserJock> I can see both sides, I personally don't think the problem is as big as Corey thinks but I think it is a concern to think about
[08:43] <LaserJock> s/is/isn't/
[08:44] <mdke> if we were gonna sell the book, like on Amazon or something, I would agree with Corey that there is a conflict issue with the official book
[08:44] <mdke> but I don't think we should, this is simply something someone reading the book can do to get a hard copy without printing it themselves
[08:44] <Burgundavia> how is lulu different from amazon?
[08:44] <mdke> Burgundavia, people go to amazon to buy books
[08:45] <mdke> they don't browse lulu looking for books
[08:45] <LaserJock> mdke: well, my main concern is getting some review from the dev community. I think I can finish tomorrow but I'd like to at least make sure I don't have any major policy violoations ;-)
[08:45] <mdke> they go there if they've read the book, and read in it that they can get a printed copy there
[08:45] <rob> sorry, I'm getting pulled away to deal with a bot net, I'm be back in a sec
[08:45] <mdke> ok
[08:46] <Burgundavia> they why don't we trial with the packaging guide?
[08:46] <mdke> LaserJock, ok, in that case I would say, we'll upload the translation tomorrow when its done, and you can change things if necessary at a later time. But try and get that done ASAP
[08:46] <mdke> Burgundavia, I think we should trial with all the guides
[08:46] <mdke> including (complete) translations
[08:46] <Burgundavia> ahh
[08:46] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I'm really sorry. My boss has really been cracking the whip :(
[08:46] <mdke> LaserJock, np
[08:47] <mdke> Burgundavia, to be honest, even if the only people to buy a copy are the occasional one of us, I won't be concerned at all
[08:47] <LaserJock> mdke: and to be honest, I expected more help :(
[08:47] <mdke> yeah
[08:47] <mdke> LaserJock, you've done an incredible job dude
[08:47] <mdke> we've been lucky to have you
[08:48] <LaserJock> well, this is my first doc project and I somewhat underestimated (suprise) how long it would take 
[08:48] <mdke> incredible how these translators work, I've got 3 translations for the ff start page already
[08:48] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: I have certainly learned that with the book
[08:49] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: really? cool
[08:49] <LaserJock> I had some interest today for a printed packaging guide
[08:49] <Burgundavia> good docs take a long time to do
[08:49] <LaserJock> I think if I continue working on it (with the community) maybe by Dapper+1 it would be publishable on lulu
[08:50] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: something unique like the packaging guide, it would be nice to get it done earlier on lulu
[08:51] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree, but I'd probably want to make sure it is good ;-)
[08:51] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: and I have to play a little catch up
[08:51] <mdke> LaserJock, I don't understand why people feel that to make these hard copies available, the documents have to be a better quality than they do when published online or in the distro
[08:51] <mdke> its not like this book will be marketed, as I said
[08:52] <mdke> it will simply be people who read the book, like it, and are prepared to pay the costs of production.
[08:52] <LaserJock> hmm, yes I suppose
[08:52] <LaserJock> well, then I have at least 3 people that wanted print copies of the packaging guide today ;-)
[08:52] <mdke> if the Desktop guide was as bad as Burgundavia thinks, he should be embarassed that its in the distro, and on the website
[08:52] <mdke> right corey?
[08:53] <Burgundavia> mdke: to a certain extent, but people don't usually compare on screen docs to books
[08:54] <Madpilot> Did anyone apply Andreas Lloyd's UDG patch?
[08:54] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree, but in this case I think we have a pretty good set of docs. And if we market it as a "printed copy of the shipped doc" then it makes sense
[08:55] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:55] <LaserJock> I can see if we were charging $40USD for it or something
[08:55] <mdke> Madpilot, no, I'll definitely have a look at it later on
[08:55] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:55] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: I want us to make a big splash of having a book, draw attention to ourselves
[08:56] <jsgotangco> what does that make us of mgalvin and jeffsch writing a book for manning?
[08:56] <Madpilot> mdke, I'll have a look at it now if it's unapplied - just lost track in the great flood of commit emails :P
[08:56] <Burgundavia> in order to do that well, we need a good product to back it iup
[08:56] <mdke> Burgundavia, if that happens then it will be a wholly different thing. marketing, selling the book in stores, etc
[08:56] <mdke> this is simply, "wanna copy but can't print? you can pay the costs of production"
[08:56] <mdke> jsgotangco, is that project still going?
[08:57] <mdke> Madpilot, okay!
[08:57] <jsgotangco> mdke, of course
[08:57] <mdke> blimey, it's been a while
[08:57] <jsgotangco> mdke, we're focused on ubuntu server though
[08:57] <mdke> are you still involved?
[08:57] <Burgundavia> ok, as long as we are not trumpeting all over the place
[08:57] <jsgotangco> mdke, we're not really vocal about it though
[08:57] <jsgotangco> but we already have a good manuscript going
[08:57] <mdke> cool
[08:57] <jsgotangco> and already on 1st review
[08:58] <LaserJock> but once we started the lulu thing then maybe it would tend to go more towards the doc team publishing the *big* book
[08:58] <jsgotangco> we're not really on a mad rush to get it published in time of june but it would be nice
[08:58] <LaserJock> if we could show the lulu books to a publisher for instance, I would think that would go a long ways
[08:59] <jsgotangco> i dont really mind having lulu on board to those docs
[08:59] <LaserJock> it really would be nice to have the offical doc team involved to some degree with offical books (seems logical to me)
[08:59] <mdke> Madpilot, I got an answer from one of the lead developers on the 3d graphics section, so I'll write that up too.
[08:59] <mdke> LaserJock, I agree. approaching individuals (for writing and review) is not really the same thing
[08:59] <jsgotangco> (actually anyone can do it)
[09:00] <mdke> jsgotangco, exactly, I suggested it to my flatmate who is writing a book for fun :)
[09:00] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:00] <jsgotangco> i actually bought a book there
[09:00] <jsgotangco> the world's ugliest dog
[09:00] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[09:00] <mdke> awww
[09:00] <mdke> i saw a picture of that guy
[09:00] <LaserJock> me too
[09:01] <jsgotangco> i think linspire also prints in lulu
[09:01] <jsgotangco> or is it xandros
[09:01] <jsgotangco> hmm
[09:01] <mdke> jsgotangco, there doesn't appear to be a tl localisation for firefox. is that right?
[09:01] <jsgotangco> mdke, we have one being done and for review
[09:02] <jsgotangco> i actually passed your email to the local list
[09:02] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: mdke, I agree with you. We will be involved in maintaining the book however
[09:02] <mdke> jsgotangco, no, i mean there is no mozilla-firefox-locale-tl package
[09:02] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: was that ever discussed with the doc team? (I don't know)
[09:02] <mdke> the translation won't work without one
[09:03] <jsgotangco> mdke, no, we have a pretty bad gnome and mozilla community locally
[09:03] <mdke> Burgundavia, LaserJock has a point, how do you know we'll be involved maintaining the book?
[09:03] <mdke> jsgotangco, ah, shame. maybe pitti can do one for you. I noticed he added a bn_IN locale yesterday
[09:03] <jsgotangco> mdke, can it be created or it'll break upstream?
[09:03] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: it is under our licenses, with the copyright being held by Canonical
[09:03] <mdke> jsgotangco, I don't know how it works
[09:03] <jsgotangco> ahh k i'll ask pitti then
[09:04] <Burgundavia> the idea is that original authors would have first refusal if their was money to update the book
[09:04] <mdke> good plan
[09:04] <Burgundavia> if needed
[09:04] <LaserJock> I see
[09:05] <mdke> jsgotangco, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mozilla-firefox-locale-all/+bug/35704
[09:05] <Burgundavia> does everybody think I should put an item in teh FAQ on the website about the Python stuff installed by default?
[09:06] <LaserJock> well, my main concern is that this book writing business seems to give the impression that Canonical doesn't really care or plan to include the doc team.
[09:06] <LaserJock> I don't really know if that is true
[09:07] <jsgotangco> mdke, ekkk a separate xpi job that's a bit hairy and dont think i have time to do that
[09:07] <mdke> jsgotangco, yeah.
[09:07] <Burgundavia> I get the impression that canonical was approached by prentice hall
[09:07] <mdke> Burgundavia, absolutely yes
[09:07] <mdke> (re: python)
[09:07] <mdke> jsgotangco, maybe someone else does?
[09:07] <LaserJock> so then it is basically Prentice Hall's baby (I'm totaly ignorant of the publishing business)
[09:08] <LaserJock> and they decided who would write the doc, etc. ?
[09:08] <mdke> -> afk
[09:08] <jsgotangco> mdke, like i said we have a pretty crap mozilla community here i'll see what i can do
[09:08] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: prentice hall is exciting about he educational opportunties are ubuntu
[09:08] <Burgundavia> debra has worked with Mako before, and I believe Jono as wel
[09:09] <Burgundavia> debra is my editor at ph
[09:09] <jsgotangco> who got an email from debra anyway? (raise hand)
[09:10] <jsgotangco> ummm
[09:10] <rob> heh.
[09:10] <jsgotangco> tee heee
[09:10] <rob> still away
[09:11] <Burgundavia> jjesse, krystic also got them
[09:11] <jsgotangco> but jjesse is in a writing job
[09:11] <LaserJock> ok, so maybe I was just too far out of the loop on this (understandably)
[09:11] <Burgundavia> I told debra about the manning book, so she may not have emailed them
[09:11] <Burgundavia> seveas and whiprush have been doing some editing/proofing
[09:11] <jsgotangco> no worries the manning book is entirely server focused
[09:12] <Burgundavia> it was part of a freeranging talk about other ubuntu books
[09:14] <LaserJock> well, I'm excited about the book. I haven't seen any content (or table of contents) but I know the authors so I'm pretty confident it will rock :-)
[09:14] <LaserJock> the Official book that is
[09:14] <Burgundavia> I wish I could write as well as Jono and Mako
[09:15] <jsgotangco> are desktop books easier to write?
[09:15] <jsgotangco> i wonder
[09:15] <mdke> Burgundavia, you're as good a writer as Jono
[09:16] <mdke> actually, I prefer your writing
[09:16] <mdke> at least judging by what I've read on the book
[09:16] <mdke> none of us could ever touch mako though ;)
[09:16] <jsgotangco> i thought they should read consistently
[09:16] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:16] <mdke> jsgotangco, yeah, that's the main difficulty with the book, in my opinion
[09:16] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:17] <mdke> or with any book, that isn't written by one person
[09:17] <jsgotangco> on our side, we have jeffsch making things consistent
[09:17] <Burgundavia> actually, I haven't even seen a complete copy myself, so it is hard
[09:17] <jsgotangco> but he's been busy lately 
[09:17] <Burgundavia> jono has been the primary author, really
[09:17] <jsgotangco> how do you collaborate? svn?
[09:18] <Burgundavia> email
[09:18] <jsgotangco> errr you email the stuff???
[09:18] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:18] <jsgotangco> that's pretty messy imo
[09:18] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:18] <Burgundavia> what are you guying writing in?
[09:18] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what we have been doing is very much the same with docteam
[09:18] <jsgotangco> except we do it in ODT
[09:19] <jsgotangco> but the toolchain is the same
[09:19] <Burgundavia> ah, we do it odt and doc
[09:19] <jsgotangco> svn+mailman+trac
[09:19] <Burgundavia> prentice hall is setup to deal with doc
[09:19] <jsgotangco> the *.doc is a necessary evil because of the printers
[09:19] <LaserJock> what, no LaTeX?
[09:19] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, yeah
[09:19] <Burgundavia> nope
[09:19] <Burgundavia> only geek publishers like OReilly go for latex
[09:19] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, its a hard reality of the printing industry
[09:20] <LaserJock> gosh, I have to use latex for all my publications
[09:20] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, eventually, those go into Frame Maker
[09:20] <Burgundavia> any, I need to sleep
[09:20] <Burgundavia> night all
[09:21] <LaserJock> lucky guy, he doesn't have a doc to finish ;p
[09:21] <jsgotangco> lol he has the editor's wrath to take care of though
[09:22] <LaserJock> yeah, I just have mdke to worry about ;-)
[09:23] <jsgotangco> yeah mdke's hair is to thick we need to make a wee bit thinner after dapper
[09:23] <jsgotangco> if we manage to have mdke have a receeding hairline by dapper+1 we are successful
[09:24] <LaserJock> I know mine is, no joke
[09:24] <LaserJock> I wonder if it is Ubuntu
[09:24] <LaserJock> or grad school
[09:25] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, check this out
[09:25] <jsgotangco> http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/index.html
[09:25] <poningru> LaserJock: what doc do you have to finish?
[09:25] <jsgotangco> 335 slides
[09:25] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[09:25] <poningru> ooh 
[09:25] <mdke> jsgotangco, haha. it's started receding already
[09:25] <poningru> that would be most helpful
[09:26] <poningru> you are talking about the motu packaging guides right?
[09:26] <LaserJock> well, it isn't specific to MOTU but yeah
[09:26] <LaserJock> it is on doc.ubuntu.com
[09:26] <LaserJock> if you want to have a look
[09:26] <poningru> right
[09:31] <rob> ok, back for a minute now
[09:32] <rob> mdke: I beleave its unprofessional to be saying the Desktop Guide is 'full of holes', not up to scratch for publishing etc etc when one is being paid to effectively write a rival book
[09:32] <rob> bah..
[09:34] <rob> ok, what was I saying..
[09:34] <rob> yes, besides as a few people have pointed out it will only be available through lulu
[09:36] <rob> I feel its somewhat an insult to the Documentation Team that the whole team wasn't involved at least in some small way in the creation of an official book
[09:37] <poningru> whats the license going to be on that book?
[09:37] <rob> ie This is the Official Ubuntu Book.. which didn't have any real community input.
[09:38] <Madpilot> poningru, I understand that after "the book" is released, it'll be dual CC:BY:SA & GFDL, like the existing docteam stuff
[09:38] <rob> regardless of the fact it is being released with an open license the Ubuntu Documentation Team should have had input from the start
[09:38] <poningru> sweet
[09:38] <rob> where are the royalties going, btw?
[09:38] <poningru> rob: thats true, but hey as long as it does good
[09:39] <poningru> ...
[09:39] <rob> ok, gotta go, back soon
[09:39] <Madpilot> rob, not sure there are going to be royalties - the authors won't be getting any, from what Corey's told me
[09:39] <jsgotangco> there are no royalties
[09:39] <LaserJock> rob: I believe many if not all of the writer have waved royalties  but I"m not sure
[09:39] <jsgotangco> the authors are paid up front
[09:40] <rob> super.. 
[09:58] <LaserJock> jeeze, I've got the memory leak from hell :(
[10:09] <mdke> Madpilot, I'm gonna try and do DVDs today too
[10:10] <Madpilot> mdke, excellent
[10:10] <mdke> they will work in gstreamer with the -ugly plugin, but without menu and subtitle support
[10:11] <mdke> but gxine works, according to corey, so we'll use that as the primary player, I'd think
[10:11] <jsgotangco> wow didnt know -ugly had dvd codecs
[10:11] <jsgotangco> i always thought it was mostly audio
[10:12] <mdke> yes, it used to be gstreamer0.8-dvd
[10:12] <Madpilot> Corey & Daniel both mentioned that gxine had some sort of colour-shifting error, though
[10:12] <mdke> Madpilot, he reported yesterday that it worked. Dunno what that colour problem was
[10:13] <mdke> ok
[10:15] <jsgotangco> what with it?
[10:15] <jsgotangco> the open source drivers rarely work
[10:15] <jsgotangco> good luck getting quake 3 running on nv or ati
[10:16] <Madpilot> really? I've got an ATI 9600XT 256Mb, and fglrx has always worked flawlessly
[10:16] <Madpilot> unless they've gotten worse for Dapper, which sounds unlikely
[10:17] <mdke> they should be better
[10:17] <mdke> I'm told lots of the commands in the guide aren't needed
[10:18] <Madpilot> mdke, speaking of which, want to yank the Quake 3 section of the Gaming chapter? it's a bit of an oddity, and probably doesn't have enough info to actually get Quake running on Ubuntu...
[10:20] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, that's a binary driver right?
[10:20] <jsgotangco> if you're using a binary driver it shouldnt be an issue
[10:20] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, fglrx? yeah, it's the non-free one, which AFAIK we recommend in the UDG
[10:20] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, that should work
[10:21] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, ah, you were talking about the opensource drivers - my bad, didn't actually read what you wrote :P
[10:21] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, hehe xorg gets a ton of bugs about it
[10:21] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, there's also with Q3 being open source, but people mistake it so
[10:21] <jsgotangco> the engine is open, but the visuals/artwork aren't
[10:22] <jsgotangco> that's why there's no apt-get quake3 tee hheee
[10:22] <Madpilot> yeah, I've seen a number of people in #ubuntu ask why "the free Quake isn't working" :P
[10:22] <mdke> Madpilot, whatever you think. I have no idea about quake
[10:22] <Madpilot> mdke, nuke it
[10:22] <jsgotangco> yeah nuke it
[10:22] <jsgotangco> i insisted on nuking it on kdg
[10:23] <mdke> ok, shall I do it?
[10:23] <mdke> well, I have
[10:24] <Madpilot> good
[10:28] <mdke> do _any_ nvidia cards have 3d by default in ubuntu?
[10:28] <mdke> i think the answer is no
[10:28] <jsgotangco> none
[10:28] <jsgotangco> it'll install `nv`
[10:29] <jsgotangco> but `nvidia-glx` is supported
[10:29] <Madpilot> likewise ATI cards - the default is mesa for them, I think
[10:30] <mdke> lots of ati cards work, the older ones
[10:30] <mdke> thanks
[10:30] <Madpilot> they work w/ mesa, just not w/ 3d accel
[10:30] <Madpilot> anyway, need sleep. later, all
[10:31] <mdke> i have an ati chip which has 3d out of the box with radeon
[10:31] <mdke> oops
[10:51] <rob> back, finally
[01:48] <WaterSevenUb> hhm, where is the index.html for the firefox start page that people are supposed to translate?
[01:53] <mdke> WaterSevenUb, attached to my email
[01:54] <mdke> bhuvan, grrr
[01:54] <bhuvan> mdke, :)
[01:57] <WaterSevenUb> mdke, sorry for the stupidity but... nothing appears attached in my email client. Do you have it somewhere?
[02:00] <mdke> WaterSevenUb, https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/browser-startpage/index.html
[02:00] <mdke> what email client is that?
[02:01] <WaterSevenUb> mdke, should we follow strictly that? For example, here http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/beta/web/ we have much more localized material on short ubuntu introduction.
[02:02] <WaterSevenUb> webclient
[02:02] <mdke> please follow the text strictly, you can localise links where appropriate (not the help.ubuntu.com link)
[02:03] <mdke> small changes to the text might be appropriate for the sake of localisation
[02:03] <WaterSevenUb> thank you for your help. Yeah, I agree with you.
[02:05] <mdke> np
[02:15] <mdke> bhuvan, is the server guide ready for freezing?
[02:16] <bhuvan> mdke: yes; very few sections are yet to be reviewed. i'm certain it's ready
[02:17] <bhuvan> mdke: whats your opinion ?
[02:18] <mdke> bhuvan, I'm happy with your opinion :) I'll ask trappist what he thinks too, as he has read all of it, I think
[02:18] <bhuvan> mdke, ok
[02:18] <mdke> great, well done
[02:25] <mdke> bhuvan, btw, the file system-conf.xml isn't used is it? Can I delete it?
[02:31] <mdke> bhuvan_, :
[02:31] <mdke>  [13:18:50]  < mdke> great, well done
[02:31] <mdke>  [13:25:32]  < mdke> bhuvan, btw, the file system-conf.xml isn't used is it? Can I delete it?
[02:32] <bhuvan_> mdke: 17:59 < bhuvan> mdke: yeah it can be removed
[02:32] <mdke> thanks
[03:33] <robotgeek> morning (evening) authors
[03:35] <mdke> hiya
[03:36] <robotgeek> mdke: will it be okay to correct minor errors with say, punctuation and  stuff later on?
[03:37] <mdke> correct as many as you can now. if there are glaring ones later, we can correct them, but it may be best to leave them, depending on seriousness, and how far the translators have got
[03:38] <robotgeek> mdke: well, frank23 will be sending me another patch, and jjesse too
[03:38] <mdke> generally speaking, if typos are caught quite soon, it shouldnt be a big problem to correct them
[03:38] <mdke> i'm happy to wait for their patches before starting the translators
[03:38] <robotgeek> mdke: probably no typos (i went over it with aspell twice)
[03:39] <mdke> cool, are the patches coming today? or later?
[03:39] <robotgeek> it's the punctutation that will kill, i can't really see the mistakes!
[03:39] <robotgeek> mdke: mostly today, i am guessing
[03:40] <mdke> cool, no prob.
[03:40] <robotgeek> mdke: how do you like it so far?
[03:42] <mdke> i'm afraid I haven't read it
[03:43] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay :)
[03:43] <robotgeek> mdke: http://yummy.printfu.org/
[03:46] <mdke> cool
[04:01] <mdke> is xchat-gnome configured to have an entry in the server list for Ubuntu which automatically joins #ubuntu? sorry to ask, haven't got a dapper system on me
[04:02] <robotgeek> mdke: not sure, don't use gnome anymore. 
[04:02] <robotgeek> mdke: i'll have some coffee and be back
[04:14] <robotgeek> mdke: it won't connect to freenode for some reason
[04:18] <mdke> robotgeek, does it try?
[05:31] <LaserJock> morning doc people
[05:32] <trappist>  I'm removing the last 3 sections of the installguide, which are blank.  I might be able to fill them in, but I won't have time to do it properly before the freeze.  any objections, or any volunteers to fill in instructions for standalone, fileserver and service server?
[05:32] <trappist> morning LaserJock 
[05:44] <mdke> trappist, leave the installguide alone
[05:44] <mdke> it's completely unmaintained, and there is an official one written by the main developer
[05:45] <trappist> dangit.  can we get rid of unmaintained docs so I don't waste time on them?
[05:46] <mdke> trappist, yes we can. But best to check the Projects wiki page
[05:46] <mdke> trappist, how is the server guide? ready to go, do you think?
[05:46] <trappist> also I just found 3 empty sections in the serverguide, for newsgroups, nntp and nntp-config.  I think it's safe to delete those.
[05:46] <mdke> good idea
[05:47] <robotgeek> mdke: sorry, was away. 
[05:47] <trappist> I want to give it a good once-over first.  I just found that stuff with a grep.
[05:47] <mdke> robotgeek, np, I sorted it. DG is now 100% complete
[05:47] <mdke> trappist, ok, if you can do it today :)
[05:47] <robotgeek> mdke: awesome. 
[05:47] <trappist> mdke: can do
[05:47] <mdke> trappist, rock
[05:47] <robotgeek> mdke: jjesse will send in patch for handhelds in kdg :)
[05:48] <mdke> robotgeek, i deleted a few crappy sections
[05:48] <mdke> and the flash instructions needed an extra push
[05:48] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, flash. lemme svn up
[05:48] <mdke> actually, i deleted a lot of crappy sections
[05:49] <mdke> workarounds in breezy which are now fixed in dapper
[05:49] <mdke> e.g. DMA
[05:49] <robotgeek> no need to enable DMA?
[05:49] <mdke> no, that's done by default now
[05:50] <mdke> (if it works)
[05:50] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, i see a sudo update-flashplugin, i think that's might be needed even in kdg
[05:51] <mdke> robotgeek, its for when you don't install the package from a terminal and don't get the ncurses debconf screen
[05:51] <mdke> trappist, i'd say delete rather than comment out for the serverguide
[05:51] <mdke> might muss up translations
[05:51] <trappist> ok, I agree now that I think about it.  who runs an nntp server anymore anyway? :)
[05:52] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, definetly needed then :)
[05:53] <LaserJock> yikes, it is cold this morning. My fingers don't want to type :(
[05:53] <mdke> what else did i nuke?
[05:54] <trappist> mdke: I'd like a review of the cups section by somebody who knows cups.  the cupsys package has changed pretty drastically since the printing section was written, and I'm not 100% sure I got all my changes right.
[05:54] <mdke> robotgeek, lots of silly sections in the firefox thing about improving the speed
[05:54] <mdke> robotgeek, some silly things in partitions which aren't needed too, iirc
[05:54] <mdke> trappist, ok, dunno who tho. I doubt pitti has time
[05:54] <robotgeek> mdke: don't have firefox in kdg
[05:55] <trappist> mdke: what do you think about an invite on sounder to get reviews on the whole thing?  I think the binary video driver thing went over very well
[05:55] <robotgeek> mdke: i'll make the change to flash plugin after frank23 sends his patch
[05:55] <trappist> mdke: lots of people sure would like to help, and this would be a pretty easy way, and I think it could help us catch a lot of oopses.
[05:55] <mdke> trappist, yeah, but it's very late
[05:55] <trappist> might have to sort through some junk, but I'd appreciate the eyeballs.
[05:56] <mdke> robotgeek, dunno if that flash thing works in konq, i tried in ff
[05:56] <trappist> mdke: yeah, that's why I think it's a good idea - it's too late for us few to do it, but we'd get a lot more eyeballs and potentially a broader range of expertise if we solicited help.
[05:57] <robotgeek> mdke: i verified yesterday with seth and kkhatman
[05:57] <trappist> mdke: $10 says we'll be glad we did it - people will catch things we won't believe we didn't catch ourselves
[06:00] <mdke> trappist, go ahead. CC: the -server list. I'd suggest keeping it to the sections you're not sure about though
[06:01] <trappist> good call
[06:01] <trappist> didn't know there was a -server list.
[06:02] <trappist> how up to date is the serverguide on doc.ubuntu.com?
[06:04] <mdke> I'll update it now
[06:04] <mdke> only a few hours tho
[06:07] <robotgeek> mdke: hold for my commit :)
[06:09] <mdke> i didn't do kubuntu
[06:10] <robotgeek> anyways, it will update on its own 
[06:12] <robotgeek> alrite, food beckons. bbl
[06:18] <mdke> robotgeek, done. Please make sure you check docs for validation before committing though (aboutkubuntu)
[06:18] <mdke> jjesse, ^
[06:22] <mdke> trappist, how about replacing things like: "To install apache2 you refer to <xref linkend="http-installation" /> section" with "To install apache2, refer to <xref linkend="http-installation" />"
[06:23] <trappist> mdke: I'm actually on that now, along with removing leading the's from xrefs
[06:25] <Burgwork> hmm, screenshot on boingboing is in that familiar shade of brown
[06:25] <mdke> trappist, cool. sometimes yelp/html adds the word "section" automatically, so it's generally good to leave it out of the text
[06:25] <trappist> ditto for "the"
[06:25] <mdke> yep
[06:26] <mdke> also, if you have time, i think filenames and directives could do with some styling
 and <emphasis> respectively, maybe
[06:28] <trappist> yeah I've been poking at that stuff when I run across it - some of my serverguide additions could probably use it, since I didn't really get the hang of it until after I wrote em.
[06:42] <trappist> dang it.  there's a lot of invalid links like that one, most pointing to other chapters, and changing those to xref doesn't help.  anybody happen to know how to xref to another chapter?
[06:44] <mdke> <xref linkend="idofchapter"/>
[06:44] <mdke> where <chapter id="idofchapter">
[06:44] <mdke> you can do it with specific sections, or anything where you put an id
[06:45] <LaserJock> mdke: is it ok if I add ~ 300K of files to the repo for the packaging guide?
[06:45] <LaserJock> mdke: I have an example and the links just aren't working so I need to ship the files :(
[06:45] <mdke> hmm
[06:46] <LaserJock> or is there some place I can store them?
[06:46] <mdke> website?
[06:46] <LaserJock> maybe on doc.ubuntu.com?
[06:47] <jsgotangco> ask for a freeze exception to mdke!!!!
[06:47] <LaserJock> hmm, I could put them on the MOTU server
[06:47] <trappist> mdke: I see.  the one I'm banging my head on is a <sect3 id="my xref">
[06:48] <LaserJock> trappist: does it really have a space? maybe that would be a problem.
[06:48] <trappist> nope
[06:48] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:48] <trappist> it creates a link to the current chapter with an anchor that doesn't exist in that chapter
[06:49] <LaserJock> weird, sure there aren't two sections with the same id?
[06:49] <trappist> positive
[06:49] <mdke> trappist, even in the html?
[06:49] <trappist> the link in question is creating-a-self-signed-certificate in the serverguide
[06:50] <trappist> mdke: I'm using the html to validate the links
[06:50] <trappist> so that's where I'm seeing the problem
[06:50] <mdke> LaserJock, I think that might be a bit big for the package, given that its on the CD. not sure. 
[06:51] <mdke> trappist, weird. try with a sect2
[06:51] <trappist> hrm, it's not chapter I'm looking for... this is all the same chapter, but maybe a different sect1?
[06:51] <trappist> mdke: how would I specify that in the xref?
[06:51] <mdke> i'm not clear on what the problem is
[06:51] <mdke> all you specify in the xref is the id tag
[06:51] <mdke> wherever the id tag is, it should find it
[06:52] <mdke> unless you're using yelp 2.12, which has a bug
[06:52] <mdke> if the doc validates, there shouldn't be a problem
[06:52] <trappist> the link labeled Creating a Self Signed Certificate in the email section of the serverguide does nothing in the html, because the target is in the apache2 section, and the href is to http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/email-services.html#creating-a-self-signed-certificate
[06:53] <LaserJock> mdke: np, I put them on http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/ . That should be stable.
[06:53] <trappist> bleh.  false alarm.  I was using the friggin doc.ubuntu.com to test my changes.
[06:53] <trappist> sorry.
[06:53] <LaserJock> lol
[06:54] <mdke> np. LaserJock, our server should be available if you want it. 
[06:54] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm, that would probably be better (naming wise). Where would I put them?
[06:57] <mdke> put them in your home, and I'll move em over somewhere. 
[06:57] <LaserJock> they are there
[06:57] <LaserJock> all the xcdroast files
[06:57] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, sorry. forgot
[06:58] <LaserJock> mdke: 6 total
[06:58] <mdke> ok
[07:00] <mdke> LaserJock, suggestions for a good url?
[07:01] <robotgeek> hey jjesse 
[07:01] <LaserJock> mdke: umm, not sure. can there be a packaging guide directory (in case I need more in the future)?
[07:01] <mdke> ok
[07:02] <LaserJock> the thing is that both Debian and Ubuntu remove outdated file fairly rapidly, so links will get stale quickly for package files
[07:02] <mdke> ok, http://doc.ubuntu.com/files/packagingguide/
[07:03] <LaserJock> mdke: perfect. thanks so much
[07:03] <mdke> np, anytime
[07:04] <LaserJock> heh, better not say that :-)
[07:04] <mdke> :)
[07:04] <mdke> afk
[07:18] <Burgwork> mdke, did anybody fix the dvd section?
[07:21] <jsgotangco> Burgwork: nows your chance to finally contribute something!
[07:21] <jsgotangco> :D
[07:23] <robotgeek> mdke: going to delete the unused sample/<files>
[07:24] <Burgwork> jsgotangco, nah, I don't write docs
[07:24] <jsgotangco> right, you get paid to write books *snicker*
[07:24] <Burgwork> I would fix it, but I forgot last night and I haven't set up port forwarding on my router, so I can't get into my home machine
[07:24] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[07:25] <jsgotangco> ok malone just beat me
[07:25] <robotgeek> Burgwork: done
[07:26] <Burgwork> robotgeek, the dvd stuff?
[07:26] <robotgeek> Burgwork: yeah, only substitles
[07:26] <jsgotangco> if a robot makes work fast, a robotgeek makes it lightning speed
[07:26] <Burgwork> ah, I wondered if we added gxine to watch the actual dvds
[07:26] <robotgeek> lol
[07:27] <robotgeek> it just works on kubuntu :)
[07:27] <Burgwork> you guys are shipping a player with the xine backend
[07:28] <jsgotangco> robotgeek: did you ever get to incorporate some stuff from the old kubuntu quickgude to the kdg?
[07:28] <Burgwork> we are shipping with gstreamer, hence the issue
[07:28] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: no, i kinda gave up after the seeing the screenshot video
[07:29] <jsgotangco> lol
[07:29] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: i think i stole something for the printer section, but nothing more
[07:29] <jsgotangco> no worries
[07:29] <robotgeek> jsgotangco: that video was very excrutiating to watch :P
[07:41] <trappist> our fdl looks to be out of date
[07:42] <trappist> on gnu.org section 4 is modifications and on ours section for is copying in quantity
[07:43] <trappist> but ours refers to section 4 as the modifications section, so I think maybe we tried to update just certain parts of it?
[07:49] <trappist> e.g. we have "You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document under the conditions of sections 2 and 3 above..." where section 2 is applicability and definitions, which I don't think is right
[07:50] <trappist> it's not right - on gnu.org it also refers to sections 2 and 3, where 2 is verbatim copying.
[07:51] <jsgotangco> good night
[07:51] <trappist> ours has the same version number and date... maybe I should just snatch up http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.xml, which is kindly provided for us
[07:51] <trappist> night jsgotangco 
[07:53] <trappist> if I do that it validates once I add the dtd
[07:53] <trappist> god it's so much better if I do that.
[07:54] <trappist> anyone?
[07:54] <robotgeek> trappist: :)
[07:54] <trappist> ok ima commit it
[07:54] <robotgeek> trappist: clueless, really
[07:56] <robotgeek> bbl
[08:02] <trappist> the gpl is similarly borked
[08:02] <mdke> Burgwork, yeah, I did it
[08:02] <mdke> Burgwork, the desktop guide all works now, i think
[08:03] <mdke> robotgeek, good plan
[08:03] <Burgwork> mdke, cool, ok
[08:08] <frank23> robotgeek: I can prrofread more of the kdg. start with add-applications.xml maybe? What was that about the flash-plugin changes you wanted to do?
[08:10] <frank23> has the documentation been sent to rosetta yet?
[08:10] <mdke> no
[08:11] <frank23> ok
[08:19] <LaserJock> mdke: is the html being built daily still?
[08:26] <mdke> twice daily
[08:26] <mdke> i hope :)
[08:27] <LaserJock> ok
[08:27] <LaserJock> wow, it was built since I left the house just a little bit ago
[09:05] <mdke> mmmmmmm new yelp
[09:05] <mdke> <3
[09:05] <LaserJock> yeah!
[09:30] <trappist> of course I'm not subscribed to the -server list, so by the time my email gets to anybody there won't be much point
[09:53] <mdke> trappist, you could always subscribe, I suppose
[09:53] <trappist> yeah, and send again
[10:20] <jjesse> does the ubuntu release notes contain min specs for installing ubuntu?  don't remember if it does or not
[10:21] <Kyral> I think the Shipit CD Covers do
[10:21] <Kyral> and I qoute
[10:21] <Kyral> For Desktop: 128 MB RAM and 1.8 GB DiskSpace
[10:22] <Kyral> For Server: 64 MB RAM and 350 MB DiskSpace
[10:22] <jjesse> recomended?
[10:23] <Kyral> "at least:
[10:23] <rob> mdke, still aroun?
[10:23] <Kyral> is the specific wording
[10:23] <rob> err around even
[10:23] <rob> thunderstorm is messing with my wireless keyboard..
[10:23] <Kyral> lol
[10:24] <LaserJock> that's about the time I think about turning my compy off
[10:24] <mdke> rob, more or less. what's up?
[10:25] <rob> so did you want to take the lulu idea to the CC/Canonical and see what they have to say?
[10:27] <mdke> rob, I will see if a few more people reply, and then I'll mail Jane or someone similar
[10:27] <Burgwork> Jane S is the person to talk to
[10:27] <rob> ok, sounds good
[10:27] <Kyral> lulu?
[10:28] <rob> let me know if you need a hand with anything, I'm happy to help out
[10:28] <LaserJock> jeeze, pay attention Kyral ;p
[10:28] <rob> hehe
[10:28] <Kyral> LaserJock: I've been studying for a Chem exam for crying out loud
[10:29] <rob> Kyral, lulu will allow people to buy printed copies of the guides
[10:29] <Kyral> ah
[10:29] <rob> cheaply too
[10:29] <LaserJock> Kyral: then you are excused ;-) see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-April/005826.html
[10:29] <mdke_> yes, that's the Jane I meant
[10:29] <Kyral> Yah Chemistry boi :P
[10:29] <mdke_> damn network
[10:30] <Kyral> That was a reference to LJ :P
[10:31] <LaserJock> anybody want to join me?
[10:32] <LaserJock> heh
[10:32] <Kyral> I'll reduce your oxidation pal!
[10:32] <LaserJock> lol
[10:32] <mdke> 12 hours before I'll get to any translation generating, so make hay
[10:33] <rob> I hate windows so much.. we so broke the servers trying to upgrade them to 2003 yesterday
[10:33] <LaserJock> neutron walks into a bar, sits down and asks for a drink. Finishing, the neutron asks "How much?"
[10:33] <LaserJock> The bartender says, "For you, no charge."
[10:33] <mdke> don't get it
[10:33] <mdke> now shoo back to the PG
[10:33] <mdke> night all
[10:34] <LaserJock> mdke: can you hold off on sending the PG until I email you? I'm not sure with timezones and all when I'll have it done
[10:35] <LaserJock> probably within 12 hrs but I'm not sure
[10:35] <mdke> LaserJock, yes
[10:35] <LaserJock> k
[10:36] <LaserJock> ok, one last one, and then I'll leave ;-)
[10:36] <LaserJock> Q: Why does hamburger have lower energy than steak?
[10:36] <LaserJock> A: Because it's in the ground state.
[10:37] <jjesse> wow
[10:38] <LaserJock> and that is why chemists aren't comedians
[10:40] <LaserJock> the new yelp looks wonderful
[10:42] <trappist> little johnny was a chemist, little johnny is no more.  for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
[10:42] <LaserJock> ohhh, that's good
[10:43] <LaserJock> although he wasn't a very good chemist was he ;-)
[10:43] <trappist> :)
[10:44] <jjesse> what is h2so4?
[10:44] <trappist> sulfuric acid
[10:44] <LaserJock> sulfuric acid
[10:44] <jjesse> oh
[10:45] <robotgeek> jjesse: commited
[10:45] <LaserJock> i.e. not good for your health ;-)
[10:45] <jjesse> robotgeek: finally :)
[10:45] <robotgeek> jjesse: only reason why i said in the root directory is that it is easy for the person committing the patch to do so very easily
[10:47] <jjesse> robotgeek: oh, never had issues before, that's intresteing
[10:47] <robotgeek> jjesse: meaning, i don't have to spend too much time wondering what to patch :)
[10:48] <jjesse> robotgeek: totally understand