[12:03] <lamont> trappist: hrm... /usr/share/doc/postfix/SASL_README.gz should mention libsasl2 and friends
[12:05] <trappist> lamont: doesn't seem to exist here
[12:06] <lamont> trappist: postfix-doc
[12:06] <trappist> ah.
[12:06] <lamont> trappist: actually, I'll just add it to README.Debian
[12:07] <lamont> or does it make more sense to put it in SASL_README?  hrm.
[12:07] <Kamion> 23:53 < Kamion> though Easter will probably reduce response time
[12:07] <Kamion> er, I meant "increase response time". make worse. whatever.
[12:08] <trappist> I like README.Debian, if only because I'm probably not the first person to peek at /usr/share/doc/postfix and think to install postfix-doc, and probably most postfix users (who are actually setting up mailservers) will want the sasl goodness
[12:08] <trappist> *and not think to install postfix-doc
[12:14] <lamont> 6.  TLS/SASL support is enabled, but sasl2-bin and libsasl2-modules are not
[12:14] <lamont>     installed by default.  See also /usr/share/doc/postfix/SASL_README.gz in 
[12:14] <lamont>     the postfix-doc package.
[12:15] <lamont> +For Debian and Debian-derived distributions, the simplest way to enable SASL
[12:15] <lamont> +support is to install the (suggested) sasl2-bin and libsasl2-modules packages:
[12:15] <lamont> +  apt-get install sasl2-bin libsasl2-modules
[12:15] <lamont> +
[12:15] <lamont> +See also /usr/share/doc/postfix/README.Debian for other variations from the
[12:15] <lamont> +instructions below.
[12:15] <lamont> trappist: how's that sound?
[12:16] <trappist> perfect :)
[12:20] <Riddell> mdke_: whree iks your new kubuntu-docs package?
[12:21] <mdke_> Riddell, https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper/
[12:37] <mdke_> Kamion, awake?
[12:39] <Kamion> mdke_: not for much longer, but yeah
[12:39] <mdke_> Kamion, ok, it's quick
[12:39] <Kamion> mdz: er. are you intentionally the only bug contact for /products/launchpad-upload-and-queue? see bug 39355
[12:39] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39355 in launchpad-upload-and-queue ""Thank you" message in upload acks badly capitalised" [Minor,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39355
[12:40] <mdke_> Kamion, just tried the install cd (F6), tried to resize my ntfs partition, entered 4 GB as the size, it kicked out and took me back to the screen with no changes and no error message. I tried 8 GB, it worked. known?
[12:41] <Kamion> not known to me at least
[12:41] <mdke_> the bug is the lack of error, presumably I have more than 4 GB on the partition or something
[12:41] <Kamion> file a bug on partman-partitioning please
[12:41] <mdke_> Kamion, what can I attach?
[12:41] <Kamion> it might be a duplicate; I intend to go through partman's use of ntfsresize before dapper, but haven't had time yet
[12:41] <Kamion> mdke_: /var/log/syslog and /var/log/partman from the installer
[12:41] <mdz> Kamion: it looks like product bug contacts don't work like package bug contacts; there can be only one
[12:41] <mdke_> Kamion, ok thanks.
[12:42] <mdz> there wasn't one, and I added myself because I wanted to be copied on bugs
[12:42] <Kamion> mdz: that wasn't the case until very recently
[12:42] <Kamion> I'm sure
[12:42] <mdz> I wonder if the registrant is copied by default, and I'm suppressing that
[12:42] <Kamion> or maybe not actually
[12:42] <Kamion> I guess it was just "Launchpad Developers"
[12:42] <mdke_> Kamion, do I need to copy those logs now, or do they exist after I complete installation?
[12:42] <mdz> Kamion: that's the registrant
[12:43] <Kamion> mdke_: they're in /var/log/installer/ after installation
[12:43] <mdke_> Kamion, thanks very much. Good night
[12:43] <Riddell> mdke_: kubuntu-docs uploaded, thanks
[12:43] <mdke_> Riddell, yay! thank _you_
[12:44] <mdz> Kamion: confirmed
[12:45] <mdz> Kamion: I've gone back and subscribed launchpad developers to the relevant bugs
[12:45] <mdz> and cleared the bug contact
[12:46] <Kamion> thanks
[12:46] <Kamion> have you filed a malone bug about the misbehaviour, or shall I?
[12:46] <Kamion> I think you probably have more information
[01:40] <wasabi> What's this Channel term which is being thrown around in relation to apt sources?
[01:40] <mdke_> I think it's used to mean "repository"
[01:41] <wasabi> Hmm.
[01:41] <lifeless> its a source of packages
[01:41] <wasabi> So basically a pretty word for an apt repository.
[01:41] <wasabi>  Cool. I shall adopt it. :0
[01:41] <lifeless> i.e. one suite in a apt-sources line
[01:41] <lifeless> (IIRC)
[01:41] <lifeless> niemeyers python tool to install stuff uses it
[01:42] <mdke_> i think gnome-app-install uses the term a fair amount
[01:43] <wasabi> I need some gapti test users. ;)
[02:10] <jono> hey
[02:49] <Riddell> Kamion: kde espresso good to merge
[03:14] <bddebian> Heya folks
[04:05] <infinity> mdke: Uhm, yes it does.
[04:06] <infinity> mdke: If you're not seeing apt pull in libsasl2 when you install it, that's because (drum roll...) it's already installed.
[04:12] <infinity> lamont: Did you actually check the dependencies of your own packages before confirming mdke's statement that it doesn't depend on libsasl2? :)  It does.  (And in Ubuntu, that also means it depends on libsasl2-modules, since libsasl2 depends on -modules in Ubuntu)
[04:22] <bddebian> infinity!!
[04:22] <infinity> Yes dear.
[04:22] <bddebian> Just Hi.
[04:22] <bddebian> So I added two dh_installs and a dh_desktop to dx and now it fails on dh_shlibdeps..  Any ideas?
[04:23] <infinity> build log?
[04:28] <bddebian> Gah, it takes forever to build :-(
[04:29] <infinity> Well, "it fails on dh_shlibdeps" doesn't mean much without some output to go with it.
[04:30] <bddebian>  cp /usr/lib/dx/bin/dx can't stat file or something like that
[04:30] <bddebian> I'll build again :-(
[04:31] <mhz> jdub: ping
[04:32] <infinity> shlibdeps doesn't copy files at all, so that failure would be elsewhere (like, in the dh_install calls)
[04:34] <bddebian> infinity: I know, that's from memory.. :-(  I'll shut up now
[04:51] <whiprush> Riddell: ping.
[05:28] <bddebian> infinity: Still here?
[05:31] <infinity> bddebian: In and out and such, but yes.
[05:31] <bddebian> So it wasn't dh_shlibdeps
[05:32] <bddebian> dh_installman -pdx
[05:32] <bddebian> dh_installchangelogs -pdx -plibdx4 ChangeLog
[05:32] <bddebian> dh_install -pdx debian/dxicon.xpm usr/share/pixmaps
[05:32] <bddebian> cp: cannot stat `./usr/lib/dx/bin/dx': No such file or directory
[05:32] <bddebian> dh_install: command returned error code 256
[05:32] <bddebian> make: *** [binary-arch]  Error 1
[05:32] <infinity> Right, well that seems pretty self-evident to me.
[05:32] <bddebian> But I don't know where the fsck that /usr/lib/dx/bin/dx path is coming from?
[05:34] <infinity> From debian/dx.install?
[05:34] <bddebian> These are the only 3 lines I added and it builds fine without these:
[05:34] <bddebian>        dh_install -pdx debian/dxicon.xpm usr/share/pixmaps
[05:34] <bddebian>         dh_install -pdx debian/dx.desktop usr/share/applications
[05:34] <bddebian>         dh_desktop
[05:34] <Chipzz> bddebian: does debian/dx.desktop refer to /usr/lib/dx/bin/dx maybe?
[05:35] <bddebian> Yes, that path is in dx.install but why would it work without those three lines?
[05:35] <Chipzz> maybe dh_install does a sanity check on your desktop file
[05:35] <Chipzz> and if your desktop file is broken
[05:35] <Chipzz> it can't copy a file that's not there?
[05:36] <bddebian> bdefreese@archive:~/devel/dx/dx-4.3.2/debian$ desktop-file-validate dx.desktop
[05:36] <bddebian> bdefreese@archive:~/devel/dx/dx-4.3.2/debian$
[05:36] <Chipzz> I meant broken wrt the path of the dx exe
[05:36] <infinity> bddebian: Why are you calling dh_install twice?
[05:39] <infinity> Oh, nevermind, I see the problem.
[05:39] <infinity> bddebian: Or, maybe I don't.
[05:40] <infinity> bddebian: I'd have to see your rules file.  I'm just fumbling in the dark without it.
[05:41] <bddebian> Of course now saying this, I don't know why I didn't just put them in dx.install anyway
[05:42] <bddebian> Sometimes being stupid can REALLY be annoying :-(
[05:53] <infinity> That implies you were ever removed. :)
[05:54] <bddebian> I was just going to say that :-)
[05:54] <bddebian> :'-(
[05:54] <infinity> (Also, relax dude.  Stupid mistakes happen.  It's more annoying to whine about being stupid than it is to just take your lumps and move on)
[05:55] <bddebian> I don't suppose you've had time to check out ivtools?
[05:56] <infinity> I'm trying to get some stuff done for Beta and UI freeze, so no, but I'll get to it after that.
[05:56] <infinity> Universe stuff has a lot more leeway, so I can do my good samaritan work after I'm done crunching on main.
[05:57] <bddebian> Heh, no worries
[05:57] <bddebian> Anything I can help out with?
[05:58] <infinity> Not unless you happen to know the Thunderbird codebase inside out and backwards.
[05:58] <bddebian> Uhm, no, sorry
[06:34] <bddebian> Gnight folks, thanks infinity
[07:29] <dholbach> good morning, HAPPY HUG DAY! :-)
[07:29] <infinity> Is it another hug day already?
[07:30] <dholbach> yeah!
[07:30] <dholbach> every two weeks
[07:30] <dholbach> this time we're trying to help out BenC
[07:31] <dholbach> BenC: you'd better turn up in #ubuntu-bugs soon - this is *your* hug day! :)
[07:31] <infinity> Idle for 12 hours... That's not a good sign. :)
[07:32] <Burgundavia> BenC is Eastern US, no?
[07:32] <infinity> Indeed.
[07:32] <Burgundavia> which makes it 1am there
[07:32] <infinity> So it does...
[07:32] <janimo> infinity: hi, any news on xubu live?
[07:32] <Burgundavia> infinity: new crack for you! ati just released drivers for x1x finally!
[07:33] <janimo> dholbach: hi, is bugday in the kernel channel today?
[07:33] <infinity> janimo: It's taking a backseat to me trying to shove some last-minute Thunderbird stuff in, then I'll do it.
[07:33] <dholbach> janimo: hug day is in the #ubuntu-bugs channel
[07:33] <neuralis> evolution just ate my calendars. it ate my calendars!
[07:33] <infinity> Burgundavia: So I heard.
[07:34] <Burgundavia> neuralis: a /server page on the ubuntu website, in the same vein as the /Website/Desktop currently being developed on the wiki. Think you could find time to work on something like that?
[07:35] <neuralis> unlikely in the near term
[07:35] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:35] <neuralis> but i'll post to u-s and ask for those budding team members to spend some of that youthful exuberance on helping out.
[07:36] <Burgundavia> that would be cool
[07:36] <infinity> X Server may fail to load when using an ATI Radeon X1x00, 512MB product with certain motherboards. Further details can be found in topic number 737-22056
[07:36] <infinity> Go ATI.
[07:36] <Burgundavia> I am about to move that desktop page to the main site
[07:36] <HrdwrBoB> infinity: and the X1X00 is slower than X800XL and 6800xx w
[07:37] <janimo> dholbach: regarding the gnumeric-gtk split, if debian maintainer keeps silent what do you think of patching ubuntu before debian?
[07:37] <janimo> I think we have a delta now with the newer versions already
[07:38] <dholbach> janimo: we tried to merge every now and then, so it should be ok around now
[07:38] <janimo> oh, I see. so hi is active ;)
[07:38] <janimo> he
[07:39] <neuralis> Burgundavia: do you know of any decent calendaring software.. that a) works and b) doesn't eat your calendars?
[07:39] <Burgundavia> neuralis: calendar.google.com?
[07:39] <neuralis> offline.
[07:40] <Burgundavia> I would use dates, which uses eds as a backend, but has a nicer frontend
[07:40] <neuralis> Burgundavia: package?
[07:41] <Burgundavia> debian maybe
[07:42] <Burgundavia> neuralis: I have to revamp the front page of the ubuntu website to say something like "Discover Ubuntu... \n on the Desktop on the Server on the Laptop"
[07:42] <neuralis> in general, i've found a bunch of awkward desktop regressions on dapper; i need to find time to file a bug salvo.
[07:42] <neuralis> Burgundavia: yep
[07:42] <Burgundavia> it is in my "for dapper release" timeframe todo list
[07:43] <infinity> neuralis: File early, file often.  We're getting close to the point of no return where many of the bugs just can't get fixed.
[07:44] <neuralis> infinity: i haven't slept in close to 2.5 days for trying to stay on top of everything that's going on; i quite literally mean "no time" :/ but point taken, i'll try and get around to this tomorrow perhaps.
[07:44] <infinity> Argh, since the last LP style rollout, I can't scroll with arrow keys anymore.
[07:45] <Burgundavia> the new menus are cool, but the theme needs work
[07:45] <infinity> neuralis: Trust me; I can relate.
[08:27] <infinity> mdz: A UVF exception for the new fglrx (which FINALLY supports the X1xxx series) would be lovely.
[08:28] <lamont> infinity: uh... I know that postfix doesn't have a direct dependency on *sasl*
[08:29] <infinity> lamont: It has a direct dependency on libsasl2.
[08:29] <infinity> lamont: At least, the package does, via shlibdeps.
[08:29] <lamont> ah, right
[08:29] <lamont> yeah... it does at that
[08:30] <infinity> And libsasl2 pulls in libsasl2-modules (in Ubuntu, at any rate, that bug really should be fixed in Debian)
[08:30] <lamont> must use brain.
[08:30] <infinity> And sasl2-bin is not required, afaict, to do SASL/TLS auth.
[08:30] <lamont> right - just to manage it. :-)
[08:30] <infinity> So, it should all go, out of the box.
[08:31] <infinity> Now, I'll go back to my filty exim4-using cave. :)
[08:31] <lamont> mind you, my list of potential-enhancements for postfix is to make SASL a loadable module, rather than hard-included.
[08:32] <infinity> lamont: Would that break it out into another package?
[08:32] <lamont> infinity: yeah, just like postfix-ldap et al
[08:32] <infinity> lamont: If so, then that package would still get the shlibdeps, if not, then postfix would still get it.
[08:32] <infinity> Either way, telling people to install the library is redundant. :)
[08:32] <lamont> yeah
[08:33] <lamont> ah, right
[08:33] <pitti> Good morning
[08:33] <infinity> (And my argument is that it's just plain confusing... "Why do I need to "apt-get install apache2 apache2-common mime-support libmagic1 libc6 ... to make apache work?  Ubuntu is dumb!")
[08:34] <infinity> But for whatever reason, our users seem to hand out this sort of advice on a regular basis, since it makes you look cooler (I guess?) than just saying "apt-get install apache2" or "apt-get install postfix"
[08:39] <infinity> Riddell: How would you feel about fixing debtags to not take a bazillion hours to timeout in the face of no network?  That's a killer for kubuntu installaiton time on a machine with no external access.
[08:39] <infinity> Riddell: Not to mention the livefs build time. :)
[08:40] <infinity> * note: "a bazillion hours" may be hyperbole.
[08:43] <lamont> infinity: you mean it only really takes 1/2 of a bazillion?
[08:44] <infinity> Maybe even a quarter of a bazillion.
[08:59] <pitti> doko: do your cupsys changes repair the weird chars in the log and PPD installation?
[09:06] <doko> pitti: I don't know yet, just adding the symlinks and moving some more files around
[09:18] <robitaille> pitti:  any update on the Firefox 1.0.8 security upgrade?  (I got asked about it at work today)
[09:19] <pitti> robitaille: tarballs should be released by MOzilla today
[09:20] <robitaille> so it will be in Breezy soonish?
[09:20] <pitti> robitaille: but I doubt that we can push out the update today, it's a hell of a lot of work and needs some testing, too
[09:20] <pitti> robitaille: yes, around Tuesday or Wednesday, I'd expect
[09:20] <pitti> robitaille: many people already complained about releasing new security updates right before a 4-day weekend :/
[09:20] <robitaille> that's great news.  Breezy's firefox has been vulnerable for a while now to a few things
[09:21] <pitti> robitaille: yes, sorry for that, but these tarballs were promised for the start of March :/
[09:21] <robitaille> Personally I gave up waiting and installed 1.5 on my Breezy home PC :)
[09:21] <Burgundavia> Mozilla, ah fun
[09:23] <Kamion> Burgundavia: BTW, please don't assign bugs to ubuntu-archive - subscribing ubuntu-archive is fine
[09:23] <Kamion> (39395)
[09:23] <Burgundavia> Kamion: ah, sorry. I blame dholbach
[09:23] <Burgundavia> well remember for next time
[09:24] <dholbach> Burgundavia: ?
[09:24] <Burgundavia> dholbach: I asked what I should do with sync requests. You said ubuntu-archive
[09:24] <dholbach> yeah, but I didn'T say anything about subscribing/assigning
[09:25] <Burgundavia> hmm, indeed
[09:26] <dholbach> :)
[09:31] <doko> bad pitti!
[09:32] <pitti> doko: ?
[09:32] <doko> :-)
[09:33] <doko> the fontforge package contains a buggy de.po file, which is not installed by intent, but pkg-striptranslations knows "better", grabs it, and installs it.
[09:33] <doko> causing the fontforge crash with locale de
[09:34] <dholbach> fix the de.po! :)
[09:34] <doko> dholbach: dude, first find that damn thing ;-P
[09:37] <pitti> Kamion: oh, wow, I just wanted to add some CVEs to the sync bugs, but you were faster. Thanks :)
[09:37] <doko> pitti: so the outcome for language specific bugs is: please remove the language-pack-<lang>-* packages and try again ...
[09:38] <Kamion> pitti: well, go ahead and add the CVEs anyway, of course ...
[09:38] <pitti> oh, I'll just add them to ubuntu-cve instead, they are more useful there
[09:42] <janimo> pitti,dholbach for adding dh_iconcache to xfce cdbs class, file a bug or upload myself?
[09:43] <pitti> janimo: that's yours, so just go ahead
[09:43] <dholbach> yeah, just DOIT!
[09:45] <janimo> ok, just wanted to make sure we avoid simultaneous uploads with same version and different changes, as it soemtimes happens :)
[09:47] <dholbach> yeah :)
 pitti: what is rationale to strip po files, which you do not find in debian/?
[09:57] <sivang> morning 
[09:57] <infinity> Kamion: How do you feel about a UVF exception for a new fglrx that finally supports the X1xxx series? (or do you want me to bug mdz?)
[09:58] <infinity> Kamion: Also, your console-data upload is FTBFS on all arches with PC kemaps (so, everywhere but powerpc)
[09:59] <sivang> infinity: that could add support for the T/X/60's ? :)
[09:59] <infinity> sivang: In the non-free driver, yes.
[09:59] <infinity> sivang: We may also manage to shoehorn in support in the free driver before release, but that'll still be another week or two of fiddling.
[10:00] <sivang> infinity: I see, yes, I've asked mjg59 and he said that would have to be fiddling with the mode changes code or so.
[10:01] <mvo> sivang: the x60s run all with the i810 driver AFAIK
[10:01] <sivang> mvo: for thos that don't use ATI maybe?
[10:02] <infinity> Err, yeah, I think all the X60s are Intel video.
[10:02] <Kamion> infinity: I'd rather leave fglrx to mdz; I don't have much experience with it
[10:02] <Kamion> infinity: thanks, I'll prod console-data
[10:02] <mvo> sivang: I think there is no model with a ATI (for the x60)
[10:02] <infinity> But most of the T60s are ATI.
[10:02] <mvo> yeah
[10:02] <sivang> oh :
[10:02] <mvo> especially the interessting ones with the xsvga screens
[10:02] <mvo> :)
[10:02] <infinity> Anyhow.  It's long weekend time for me, kids.
[10:03] <infinity> fglrx update will have to wait until Tuesday.
[10:03] <sivang> mvo: Well, I've already gotten my T43p with 1400x1050 as infinity recommended, and although fglrx is buggy with this V3200 it's sweet as can be :)
[10:03] <janimo> Kamion, since there's space left on the xubuntu cd which language package do you think I should add besides what is on the ubuntu CD?
[10:04] <sivang> (but good to know about this so when people ask me if we suport the new ones, I can say technically yes :))
[10:04] <janimo> infinity: xubuntu live will wait till Tuesday too?
[10:05] <dholbach> infinity: have a good time! :)
[10:05] <sivang> infinity: laters dude
[10:06] <mvo> sivang: is it a 14" model? 
[10:06] <sivang> mvo: yes, very light, even with the 9cell batt
[10:06] <Kamion> janimo: there's a standard ordering, check with pitti who has a script to help
[10:06] <mvo> sivang: nice
[10:06] <janimo> thanks
[10:06] <infinity> janimo: Most likely, yes.  This is my first vacation in a long time, and I intend to actually take it. :)
[10:07] <janimo> infinity: ok, have a nice weekend :)
[10:07] <infinity> janimo: You'll have live stuff in time for beta, though.
[10:07] <janimo> ok, I just wanted to test out espresso, but I hope it'll just work :)
[10:08] <sivang> mvo: the first one I got (that you saw me with over Montreal) was similar, only had 2.0G CPU, but when I arrived in .il and had problems (mainly ots of dead pixels) I realized I had not been given the internatinal warranty I paid for, so I returned it and got one her ein .il, which costs higher but at least is an official IBM inventory part number and has all the warranty etc.
[10:09] <sivang> mvo: a happy ending for me at last :)
[10:13] <pitti> doko: *confused* we don't stip po files, what do you mean?
[10:14] <pitti> Riddell: GOOD NEWS!!!1!
[10:17] <doko> pitti: but you generate them
[10:18] <janimo> pitti, which is the order in which language-packs and support files are to be put on the cd?
[10:18] <sivang> mvo: do you recall where to set cdrecord wait time? infinity noted to me that patching is not neccessary, as you can set the wait time to a minimum of 2 secs.
[10:18] <doko> from the po file that you extract
[10:18] <pitti> doko: hm, I'm afraid I'm confused, can you please try to explain it again to a neandertal?
[10:18] <pitti> janimo: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/bzr/langpack-o-matic/langpacksize
[10:19] <janimo> pitti, thanks
[10:19] <pitti> janimo: this is a script that calculates the cumulative size of Ubuntu or Kubuntu langpacks
[10:19] <mvo> sivang: let me have a look
[10:19] <pitti> janimo: you might find it useful on its own, but in the header there's the list of priority languages
[10:19] <janimo> pitti, are all those shipped in ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu?
[10:20] <pitti> janimo: *-pack, yes, however, we only ship l-support-en, since support is huuuuge
[10:20] <janimo> pitti, some of the support could fit on xubuntu (someone asked for zh)
[10:21] <mvo> sivang: right, there is a --gracetime options it seems, minimum is 2
[10:21] <janimo> pitti, is shipping any of these is not recommended even if there is space?
[10:21] <pitti> janimo: sure, your CD should be much smaller, feel free to use the space for l-support ;)
[10:21] <janimo> :)
[10:21] <dholbach> hey seb128!
[10:21] <pitti> janimo: no, ideally we would ship all language-{pack,support}-*, but we just can't
[10:21] <pitti> hey seb128 
[10:21] <janimo> OOo may go on the cd too after all just not default
[10:21] <seb128> hi dholbach pitti
[10:23] <doko> pitti: ugh, ugh, huba huba .;-) .. fontforge includes a buggy de.po, which it does not use, does not build a corresponding .mo file and does not install it doing a make install. nevertheless pkg-stripstranslations does find the de.po file, builds the corresponding .mo file and includes this in the language packs.
[10:24] <pitti> doko: aaah
[10:24] <pitti> doko: me understand, me will apply club to fix
[10:25] <pitti> doko: however, the easiest way would to just trash the file during package build; putting such special cases into the langpack import is neither nice nor robust
[10:25] <doko> pitti: bug 39408
[10:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39408 in Ubuntu "pkg-striptranslations strips files it should not find" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39408
[10:26] <pitti> doko: oooh, wait
[10:26] <pitti> doko: you mean that de.po file is in debian/?
[10:26] <pitti> doko: my langpack importer ignores debian/
[10:26] <doko> pitti: the thing is that you have to find these files. 
[10:27] <pitti> doko: carlos and I specifically agreed to just take all po files and worry about their filtering in the langpack importer, not in pkgstriptranslations
[10:27] <doko> pitti: no, it's in the package source, but you cannot find a corresponding .mo file in debian
[10:27] <pitti> doko: that way we can change our minds without rebuilding all packages
[10:27] <leo__> hi , is it possible to have the live cd skip all the "debian-installer-alike" questions so it directly boots into gnome? preseed?
[10:27] <pitti> doko: 'in debian' -> in the source package directory 'debian/'?
[10:27] <pitti> oh, phone
[10:29] <doko> pitti: ~lamont/public_html/translations/20060406/fontforge_0.0.20051205-0.1ubuntu2_i386_translations.tar.gz
[10:32] <pitti> doko: ok, I see the tarball contents here
[10:32] <Mithrandir> janimo: I did?
[10:32] <pitti> doko: so you mean that ./source/fontforge-20051205/po/de.po is broken?
[10:32] <sivang> hmm, Ian is not around ?
[10:32] <janimo> Mithrandir: assuming you are answering my question of yesterday :)
[10:32] <janimo> you answered the guy asking about persistence on xubuntu cd
[10:32] <doko> pitti: yes, and rosetta should not import it, because there's no corresponding .mo file
[10:33] <Kamion> leo__: sure, you should be able to preseed debian-installer/locale and kbd-chooser/method, shouldn't be much else that gets asked
[10:33] <Mithrandir> janimo: yes, but that was a "about this time" not as in "this second".  Kamion probably knows the exact state.
[10:33] <pitti> doko: if the po file is broken in a way that msgfmt cannot build a mo file from it, then I agree, langpack-o-matic should just ignore it
[10:34] <janimo> Mithrandir: ok, actually infinity is in charge, wil be done by beta
[10:34] <pitti> doko: however, if it has wrong translations and such, then the file shuold just be removed on package build; centralizing such special cases is a pain
[10:35] <pitti> doko: and adding code for 'oh yes, that package *generally* builds mo files from, er wait, maybe this subdirectory of po files?, but just not for these two languages' won't be funny
[10:35] <Mithrandir> janimo: well, there's the livefs builds which are infinity's domain and there are the cd builds which are Colin's.
[10:35] <infinity> Yay, confusion. :)
[10:36] <infinity> Though, I may end up setting up the Xubuntu LiveCD builds right after I do the livefs builds.
[10:36] <doko> pitti: but you can decide that from just looking at the tarball, don't you?
[10:36] <infinity> I have a feeling Colin will be... Busy.
[10:36] <leo__> Kamion: you rock
[10:36] <Mithrandir> janimo: note that livefs != live cd.  Live fs goes on the live CD.
[10:36] <pitti> doko: well, I can for the fontforge case, but can you find an algorithm for that that doesn't break for multiple domains and such?
[10:36] <janimo> ok. I was not aware of that distinction.
[10:36] <Mithrandir> infinity: you think Kamion'll be busy?  Never seen that happen. :-P
[10:36] <infinity> :)
[10:37] <infinity> Kamion: You're not meant to have time to watch IRC.  BACK TO YOUR CUBE, HACK FASTER.
[10:37] <infinity> Kamion: *whip*
[10:40] <doko> pitti: no, don't change anything for fontforge, just regenerate the language-pack-de after the next upload
[10:41] <pitti> doko: was there a bug about that s/Oki/Okidata/?
[10:41] <Kamion> Riddell: merged and pushed, thanks
[10:41] <pitti> doko: I can manually stick a new de.po for fontforge into it, and rebuild just this one, yes
[10:41] <doko> pitti: All other ppd packages have as manufacturer Okidata, not Oki
[10:42] <pitti> ah, ok
[10:42] <pitti> doko: hm, I'll apply that /usr/share/ppd/ symlink right in Debian
[10:44] <Kamion> infinity: yeth, mathter
[10:45] <doko> pitti: the greek lp has to be rebuilt as well
[10:45] <pitti> doko: for fontforge?
[10:46] <doko> yes
[10:46] <pitti> doko: ok, I'll roll out update packs for greek and de in the near future
[10:53] <doko> pitti: but please ignore fontforge's utf8.pot (or carlos should do)
[10:54] <pitti> doko: any chance that the package could build a valid pot file? carlos needs one anyway
[11:02] <doko> pitti: already fixed ;-)
[11:03] <mdke> infinity, my bad then, must have been something else not working
[11:05] <mdke> infinity, sorry for blaming you, perhaps I wanted sasl2-bin
[11:35] <pitti> doko: I finished my first shot at cupsys 1.1.99.rc2-0ubuntu1
[11:35] <pitti> doko: can I ask you for testing them and building me i386 packages?
[11:36] <pitti> doko: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/packages/cupsys/  ; sources are up, amd64 debs are scp'ing
[11:36] <heno-live> Mithrandir, Kamion: posting from the live CD with the high contrast theme by default. It seems to work well :)
[11:36] <pitti> doko: I did a quick upgrade test from current dapper and a fresh reinstall, and everything works well for me
[11:36] <doko> pitti: will do
[11:37] <heno-live> Now I just have to test the other versions. Thanks for your great work on this!
[11:37] <pitti> doko: if I have i386 debs there, I'll ask on u-devel for some broader testing
[11:37] <pitti> doko: all debs are up now
[11:40] <Kamion> heno-live: great, thanks
[11:41] <Kamion> fortunately I already have all the code needed to figure out which kernels are unsuitable and all the code needed to remove the packages - I just need to glue it all together
[11:42] <Riddell> whiprush: pong
[11:42] <heno-live> btw, Espresso looks good in high contrast mode
[11:42] <Riddell> pitti: hmm?
[11:43] <heno-live> next, we'll see if will speak to the screen reader
[11:43] <Mithrandir> heno-live: yay. :-)
[11:43] <pitti> Riddell: I talked to that friend of mine, and he says fixing kdeprinter is not at all complicated, at least not to get it running
[11:44] <pitti> Riddell: he already did some small hacks, after that kdeprinter worked just fine
[11:44] <Treenaks> great, new fglrx with (claimed) X1000 support
[11:44] <Riddell> pitti: got a patch for us to try?
[11:44] <pitti> Riddell: btw, can you test printing at all ATM? I have 1.2rc2 packaged at http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/packages/cupsys/
[11:45] <Riddell> pitti: ooh, even amd64 debs, how did you know? :)
[11:45] <pitti> Riddell: I don't have it yet, I have asked him
[11:45] <pitti> Riddell: I only have amd64 here :)
[11:46] <pitti> Riddell: he's building one
[11:47] <MidMark> hi guys, only one question: there was a recent update (1-2 days) that break user's passwords? I cannot boot anymore to my dapper
[11:47] <MidMark> cannot login sorry
[11:47] <pitti> Riddell: I only have amd64 here :)
[11:48] <pitti> Riddell: anyway, there are still some issues, but his patch should make printing work at all
[11:48] <pitti> Riddell: he'll write something up and prepare a reasonable patch; could we give him the bounty if that's successful?
[11:49] <pitti> MidMark: hm, not really; maybe your keyboard layout changed? there were some keyboard-related changes recently
[11:51] <MidMark> pitti: but my password is without special char, and I cannot login
[11:51] <pitti> hm
[11:51] <pitti> MidMark: does logging in on a text console work? (Ctrl+Alt+F1)
[11:51] <MidMark> ok sorry I have understand the problem
[11:52] <MidMark> pitti: wait 1 minute I will explain, probably a bug... don't know now
[11:52] <Riddell> pitti: sure, I'd be happy with htat
[11:52] <Riddell> that
[11:53] <MidMark> package to add user was updated?
[11:54] <pitti> MidMark: well, yes, doko did a small fix for handling symlinks
[11:54] <Riddell> sudo /etc/init.d/cupsys start
[11:54] <Riddell>  * Starting Common Unix Printing System: cupsd                                                                                                cupsd: Child exited on signal 11!
[11:54] <Riddell> hmm
[11:54] <pitti> Riddell: bummer
[11:55] <Mithrandir> dholbach: the homepage link in libsexy's description is wrong.  The new one is http://www.chipx86.com/wiki/Libsexy
[11:55] <pitti> Riddell: anything in error_log? can you get a backtrace with sudo gdb --args /usr/sbin/cupsd -f ?
[11:55] <MidMark> pitti: because I have added a new user, and I *think* to have added a password to this new user, after that I *think* that dupper have changed the password of my user and not in the new user...
[11:56] <pitti> MidMark: no, we never change passwords
[11:56] <dholbach> Mithrandir: thanks, will change that
[11:56] <MidMark> pitti: probably was my fault, it's strange, but possible...
[11:57] <pitti> MidMark: hm, if you boot in rescue mode and change your password with 'passwd yourlogin' to a known good value again, can you login again?
[11:57] <Riddell> pitti: http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/657295
[11:57] <pitti> MidMark: please, before you do that, make a copy of /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd to compare afterwards
[11:58] <dholbach> Mithrandir: done
[11:58] <pitti> Riddell: thanks
[11:58] <MidMark> pitti: now I login with my old user and new password (that is why I cannot login) and changed the two password, now all is ok again, but I don't know why I wanted to change the password of my new user and instead I have changed passw of my existing user
[11:59] <MidMark> pitti: don't know if is it clear...
[12:00] <pitti> MidMark: AFAIUI that was just a confusion due to in advertedly changing the wrong user's password, and no bug then?
[12:01] <mdke> seb128, have you had any reports about syntax highlighting not working on gedit?
[12:01] <pitti> Riddell: http://mh21.piware.de/cups-noasync.patch
[12:01] <seb128> mdke: no
[12:01] <seb128> mdke: what file format?
[12:01] <mdke> seb128, docbook xml
[12:01] <pitti> Riddell: pretty hideous hack so far, but works for him; it basically circumvents the problematic part of the code (it's not that important anyway)
[12:01] <seb128> any example of such file to try?
[12:01] <mdke> seb128, shall I file it directly upstream?
[12:01] <mdke> seb128, sure, hang on
[12:01] <seb128> mdke: let me have a look first
[12:01] <MidMark> pitti: don't know, I remember that I have changed the new password and NOT the old one, but I'm not so sure... you have said that password aren't touched in the last update, so don't know what to think
[12:02] <pitti> Riddell: written explanation will follow; he quickly explained on the phone
[12:02] <mdke> seb128, svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ ?
[12:02] <mdke> seb128, oh actually
[12:03] <mdke> seb128, just use something on your system: /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/desktopguide/C
[12:03] <MidMark> pitti: I can try to reproduce the bug, if it is a bug and not a mistake
[12:03] <pitti> MidMark: yes, please, that would be nice
[12:03] <MidMark> pitti: ok I'll try now...
[12:04] <mdke> seb128, common-tasks.xml or something
[12:04] <seb128> mdke: yeah, does the same here, I'm looking on it
[12:05] <mdke> seb128, thanks, lemme know if you want to do anything. Also, I remember seeing a bug on gedit about using the gnome system-wide monospace font, did that get rejected?
[12:05] <mdke> I think that's a good default to have
[12:05] <seb128> I don't think it got rejected no
[12:05] <mdke> i'll go and search for it
[12:06] <seb128> mdke: k, I've the bug fixed
[12:06] <MidMark> pitti: ok I understand what was the problem, and I think it is a kind of bug
[12:06] <MidMark> pitti: I will explain in details...
[12:07] <seb128> mdke: /usr/share/gtksourceview-1.0/language-specs/xml.lang the mimetype list should have "application/docbook+xml"
[12:07] <seb128> mdke: I've fixing that forwarding upstream right now
[12:07] <mdke> seb128, you rock
[12:07] <seb128> thank you ;)
[12:07] <mdke> seb128, the bug is #2961 for the font, but it's marked as fixed... but it's not ;)
[12:08] <mdke> i closed it, in fact
[12:08] <mdke> perhaps it's come back
[12:08] <MidMark> pitti: I think it is a kde related bug, should I have to explain in kubuntu-devel or also here?
[12:09] <Riddell> MidMark: hmm?
[12:09] <pitti> MidMark: best thing would be to file a bug
[12:09] <pitti> or bother Riddell :)
[12:10] <MidMark> ok I'll explain here, I'm 90% sure is a kde bug
[12:10] <Riddell> pitti: recompiling from your cups source gets rid of the segfault
[12:11] <pitti> Riddell: cool
[12:12] <MidMark> kde-bug: I have created a new user (I have kubuntu) with kde: users and groups and clicked ok, then I have clicked again to my new user, go to password, and set a new password, then I clicked to my existing user (another one) and the tool remember that I was in password changing part AND ALSO remember the password that I have typed in the previuos user, so I think I have clicked OK (instead of Cancel) and the program changed
[12:14] <MidMark> pitti, Riddel: is it enough clear? I have tried another time and it is exactly like this
[12:14] <seb128> MidMark: please use launchpad or an another chan for bugs like that
[12:15] <MidMark> ok, have you the link in your hand?
[12:15] <pitti> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug
[12:15] <MidMark> pitti: thanx
[12:16] <Riddell> MidMark: hmm, confirmed, that's quite nasty
[12:16] <MidMark> pitti: I have only a bugzilla account in ubuntu, it works with the same login&passw or I have to register another time?
[12:17] <mdke> MidMark, you need to register on launchpad to use almost all ubuntu services now
[12:17] <MidMark> mdke: so I cannot use bugzilla account in launchpad?
[12:17] <MidMark> Riddel: I create a bug report ok?
[12:17] <mdke> MidMark, erm. give it a try, it might have been imported.
[12:18] <Kamion> a launchpad account was probably created, but the password may not have been set
[12:18] <mdke> MidMark, search for your email address at https://launchpad.net/people (that will tell you if you have an account)
[12:18] <Kamion> see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-January/000051.html
[12:19] <MidMark> kamion: ok now I proceed with transition
[12:49] <pitti> Riddell: hm, wrt your crash, is anything wrong with your resolving of 'localhost'?
[12:49] <pitti> Riddell: I can see that the httpGetHostname() function isn't very robust, I'll add some checks to it
[12:55] <Riddell> pitti: localhost is in /etc/hosts
[12:55] <pitti> Riddell: and your /etc/hostname is, too?
[12:56] <Riddell>  /etc/hostname is the name of the computer
[12:56] <pitti> Riddell: I guess gethostname() failed and left the returned hostname uninitialized
[12:56] <pitti> Riddell: I'll fix and pass to upstream
[12:57] <pitti> doko, Riddell: how's 1.2rc2 looking so far, apart from the absence of authentication in the web interface?
[12:57] <pitti> that friend of mine just tried it, too, worked reasonably for him
[12:57] <Riddell> pitti: fails equally with kdeprint
[12:57] <pitti> Riddell: oh, even with the patch I sent you?
[12:58] <Riddell> pitti: havn't seen that yet, still going through my morning's e-mails :(
[12:58] <pitti> Riddell: I IRCed it to you
[12:58] <pitti>  <pitti> Riddell: http://mh21.piware.de/cups-noasync.patch
[12:59] <Riddell> oh, how did I miss thta
[12:59] <Riddell> ok, let me try it
 seb128, docbook xml
 Riddell: pretty hideous hack so far, but works for him; it basically circumvents the problematic part of the code (it's not that important anyway)
[01:00] <pitti> Riddell: it basically skips the asynchronous check whether cupsys is running; it doesn't seem to be vital, it works fine if cupsd runs and I was told that it behaves sane if cupsd isn't running
[01:00] <pitti> Riddell: so, the real solution would be to replace that with a proper thread which calls the CUPS API and reacts appropriately
[01:00] <pitti> but that's sth for upstream
[01:01] <doko> pitti: it does work with my OfficeJet & hplip 0.9.7
[01:01] <pitti> yay
[01:02] <doko> didn't check with 0.9.6, waiting for mdz to check out 0.9.7
[01:02] <pitti> doko: can you put your i386 debs somewhere in the DC?
[01:02] <doko> sure, wait ...
[01:02] <mdke> pitti, mmm?
[01:03] <pitti> mdke: ECONTEXT
[01:03] <mdke> pitti, heh k
[01:30] <mdke> by the way, is it worth filing bugs for the font changes in firefox/epiphany recently? or are these intentional?
[01:32] <giftnudel> mdke: were they dejavu and are now different?
[01:33] <mdke> giftnudel, i have no idea, they are suddenly ugly. previously they were similar to breezy, I think
[01:33] <giftnudel> mdke: look here http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/04/06/0 , this might be related
[01:34] <Treenaks> That page still has weird ligatures, though my fonts are set to the defaults now
[01:35] <mdke> giftnudel, I don't understand it enough. All I know is that everything is ugly :/
[01:35] <mdke> so, it's a bug, rather than intentional?
[01:36] <giftnudel> I think the switch was intentional, but the result not
[01:39] <jamesh> mdke: what does "fc-match sans-serif" print?
[01:40] <mdke> jamesh, DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"
[01:40] <Treenaks> DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"
[01:40] <jamesh> mdke: what sort of ugly are you talking about, btw?
[01:40] <Treenaks> jamesh: Very badly antialiased fonts, too high, and not wide enough (or of the right height, but not wide enough)
[01:41] <mdke> jamesh, just poor readability
[01:41] <mdke> yeah, what Treenaks says
[01:42] <jamesh> but different to what is described here? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/37828
[01:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 37828 in firefox "Text rendered incorrectly in presence of ligatures and justified text" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[01:42] <giftnudel> dejavu has an issue with ligatures (special characters for combinations like ft which should provide better readability) 
[01:42] <giftnudel> which is the bug ...
[01:43] <jamesh> giftnudel: more specifically, firefox has an issue with ligatures and DejaVu provides ligature OpenType tables ...
[01:43] <giftnudel> oh, ok
[01:43] <mdke> i don't know what ligatures are
[01:43] <giftnudel> my explanation abovE?
[01:43] <Treenaks> jamesh: http://www.xs4all.nl/~mvdstree/screenshot.png
[01:44] <Treenaks> jamesh: yes, it's different from 37828
[01:44] <mdke> yes, different to that
[01:44] <mdke> the fonts are simply too high, and poorly focused
[01:45] <jamesh> mdke: a ligature is a single glyph that represents multiple characters
[01:46] <jamesh> mdke: e.g. there are glyphs in the DejaVu Sans font to represent the character sequences ff, fi, ffi, fl, ffl
[01:46] <mdke> my problem is quite well represented by Treenaks' screenshot, I don't have problems with character sequences
[01:48] <Treenaks> mdke: http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/04/06/0 does have the 37828 problem for me (in the word 'verified', for example)
[01:48] <mdke> i'll do my own screenshot
[01:48] <Treenaks> jamesh: ^^
[01:49] <mdke> Treenaks, i don't see that bug.
[01:49] <jamesh> Treenaks: sure.  The theme there uses the default sans-serif font with justified text
[01:49] <jamesh> which is enough to trigger rendering problems on dapper
[01:50] <Treenaks> jamesh: hmm.. it uses standard 'sans-serif'? what does planet use then?
[01:50] <mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/badfonts.png
[01:50] <jamesh> Treenaks: the default sans-serif font with left aligned text
[01:51] <Treenaks> jamesh: the font got smaller with today's update..
[01:54] <doko> pitti: sorry forgot about http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/print/
[01:55] <pitti> doko: cool, thanks; I'll copy the cups debs to my people page and ask for more testing 
[01:59] <doko> pitti: wait, some questions ...
[02:01] <doko_> pitti: E [13/Apr/2006:13:31:53 +0200]  [cups-driverd]  Unable to open driver directory "/usr/lib/cups/driver": No such file or directory
[02:01] <doko_> ?
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:07:35:42 +0200]  cupsdLoadAllClasses: Unable to open /etc/cups/classes.conf - Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:07:35:42 +0200]  LoadAllSubscriptions: Unable to open /etc/cups/subscriptions.conf - Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:09:14:47 +0200]  cupsdLoadAllClasses: Unable to open /etc/cups/classes.conf - Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:09:14:47 +0200]  LoadAllSubscriptions: Unable to open /etc/cups/subscriptions.conf - Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:12:49:10 +0200]  [cups-driverd]  Unable to open driver directory "/usr/lib/cups/driver": No such file or directory
[02:01] <doko_> E [13/Apr/2006:12:50:01 +0200]  CUPS-Add-Modify-Printer: Unauthorized
[02:03] <pitti> doko_: all but the last warnings aren't interesting (the files just haven't been created yet, but will be if you use the web interface)
[02:03] <pitti> doko_: I get the last one as well, but it works fine; I assume it first tries to add the printer, is told that it needs auth, provides auth, and tries again
[02:28] <Riddell> pitti: definate progress, I can add printers and it prints fine now.  on first start it still gives an error "can't list printers" when cups has no printers defined yet, and there's a compile error in kdeprint/cups/ipprequest.cpp where it uses _ipp_free_attr
[02:29] <Riddell> enrico: is it possible to have debtags not take ages to timeout on installation with no network?
[02:29] <pitti> Riddell: cool, that's at least promising
[02:30] <pitti> Riddell: mh21 also told me about a list of other things that need to be cleaned up (like restarting cups, starting/stopping printers, etc.)
[02:30] <pitti> Riddell: i. e. kdeprint often manually constructs URLs, but they don't work if the local Unix socket is used, etc. pp.
[02:31] <Riddell> yeah, kdeprint hasn't been properly maintained for a while now :(
[02:33] <Riddell> pitti: I'll probably upload a kdelibs with this half-fix today to see if it works for other people, does your friend have a name I can put to acknowledge him?
[02:34] <pitti> Riddell: Michael Hofmann
[02:34] <Riddell> thanks
[02:34] <pitti> Riddell: but as I said, this is not his final patch
[02:34] <pitti> Riddell: just a first shot to get it working at all
[02:34] <pitti> Riddell: but sure, it's certainly better than the current package, so go ahead :)
[02:34] <Riddell> sure, but I need to upload kdelibs anyway so no hard in slightly un-breaking stuff while I'm at it
[02:38] <enrico> Riddell: the new debtags already does it
[02:38] <enrico> otherwise, you'll have to patch libapt-front
[02:38] <Riddell> enrico: right, suspected that might be the case, thanks
[02:38] <enrico> the fetcher used, BTW, is the one from libapt-pkg
[02:39] <Riddell> yeah, I saw that
[02:39] <enrico> Riddell: I implemented non-network update in debtags to work around this problem
[02:39] <enrico> I'm sorry you're stuck with an older version
[02:39] <enrico> I can try to assist you with a backport, if you want
[02:39] <enrico> I mean, a backport of this feature only
[02:40] <Riddell> that would be cool
[02:43] <enrico> Riddell: needs a bit of coordination
[02:44] <enrico> Riddell: today I'll be afk most of the day (and evening)
[02:44] <enrico> Riddell: tomorrow I'll be on a plane
[02:44] <enrico> Riddell: the day after tomorrow is easter saturday
[02:44] <Kamion> ("Holy Saturday" - Easter Saturday is the following week)
[02:45] <Kamion> (in English terminology anyway)
[02:45] <enrico> Riddell: can you send a mail to libapt-front-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org pointing to the ubuntu packages you're working on?  I can pick it up from there and try to work out what minimal patch can solve the issue
[02:45] <enrico> Kamion: thanks
[02:45] <Riddell> so easter saturday is 8 days after easter friday?
[02:46] <Kamion> no, one day after. Tomorrow is Good Friday
[02:46] <Riddell> oh, so it's actually still a week until easter proper?
[02:46] <Kamion> ? no, three days to Easter Sunday
[02:47] <Riddell> gosh, this church stuff is so confusing
[02:47] <enrico> Kamion: after easter sunday is easter monday, but after easter monday isn't easter tuesday, right?
[02:47] <Kamion> Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunday <-- Easter proper, Easter {Monday..Saturday}
[02:47] <enrico> Kamion: ah, ok
[02:48] <enrico> Kamion: there's Palm Sunday as well?
[02:48] <enrico> Kamion: a month before easter, isn't it?
[02:48] <jjesse> holy thursday is also maundy thursday depending on relgion
[02:48] <Riddell> Kamion: while I have your attention, could you promote kmailcvt to main?  it's from kdepim and all deps are in main
[02:48] <Kamion> no, Palm Sunday was the Sunday just past, also called Passion Sunday
[02:48] <jjesse> palm sunday is the sunday before easter
[02:48] <enrico> jjesse: ok
[02:48] <enrico> jjesse: when's ipod sunday?
[02:48] <Kamion> Riddell: done
[02:48] <jjesse> enrico: is that the day you buy me an ipod?
[02:49] <Riddell> Kamion: and can you add the kubuntu espresso .desktop file to be copies to ~/Desktop on the live CD?  it should be quite useable now
[02:49] <Kamion> jjesse: more depending on country I thought - that was an English thing
[02:49] <enrico> Riddell: from tomorrow late night to the 24th morning I'll be in Manchester
[02:49] <enrico> Riddell: if needed, we can phone each others :)
[02:49] <Kamion> Riddell: if Mithrandir's around today, send him a casper patch
[02:49] <jjesse> maundy thursday is episcopalian (sp??) and lutheran
[02:50] <Treenaks> 'calendar' helps ;)
[02:50] <Riddell> Kamion: where do I find the casper repository?
[02:50] <Kamion> jjesse: it's common phrasing among all denominations here (England)
[02:50] <Kamion> Riddell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/casper/trunk/
[02:50] <Riddell> Kamion: thanks
[02:50] <jjesse> Kamion: intersting i was not aware of that
[02:51] <enrico> jjesse: and Pungenday, the 30th day of Discord in the YOLD 3172 for discordians :)
[02:57] <pitti> doko: ok, I'll attack the locales in l-support-* now
[02:59] <doko> cool, like I can upload OOo on Tuesday again
[03:01] <pitti> Kinnison: AYT?
[03:01] <Kinnison> pitti: yes
[03:01] <pitti> Kinnison: I need to upload all 73 language-support-* packages
[03:02] <Kinnison> pitti: same drill as before?
[03:02] <pitti> Kinnison: maybe we should better handle that quietly
[03:02] <pitti> Kinnison: depends on how much work it is for you
[03:02] <Kinnison> pitti: not much at all. As before, prepare a dir with all the uploads and I'll rsync it
[03:02] <pitti> Kinnison: but the changelogs are uninteresting, and 73 is quite much spam
[03:07] <pitti> Kinnison: so, there we are: rookery:/srv/language-packs.ubuntu.com/dapper/sources-support/
[03:07] <pitti> Kinnison: it contains the source packages and signed .changes
[03:08] <Kinnison> cool
[03:08] <pitti> Kinnison: thank you!
[03:09] <pitti> doko: so, there you have :)
[03:13] <Kinnison> pitti: processing now
[03:14] <Kinnison> pitti: seems to be okay
[03:14] <pitti> yay
[03:15] <Kinnison> enjoy :-)
[03:15] <Kinnison> They'll be in the 14:00 (UTC) cycle I guess
[03:25] <doko> is there a way to see, if an init script is started during the boot process (to avoid starting another daemon, which will be started later anyway)?
[03:26] <pitti> Riddell: I'm sure I already asked, but I forgot: any chance to drop/change the imlib build-dep for kdegraphics? it's the only package that wants imlib in main, and imlib in turn holds gtk1.2 in main
[03:27] <bddebian> Heya folks
[03:28] <Riddell> pitti: imlib 2 seems quite different, kdegraphics doesn't compile with it
[03:28] <pitti> hm, ok
[03:28] <Treenaks> so.. KDE depends ons GTK?
[03:28] <Riddell> Treenaks: build-dep I assume
[03:28] <Riddell> Treenaks: although scim brings in a bunch of gnome libraries :(
[03:34] <heno> Mithrandir: there are a few things that need tweaking on the live CD WRT AT (as might be expected). What pkg should I file that against, casper?
[03:34] <Kamion> heno: generally, yeah, unless it's obviously something where some other individual package's defaults can be improved
[03:35] <heno> Kamion: ok, cool. Yeah one is obviously a gok bug, but the rest are config things
[03:35] <heno> thx
[03:37] <doko> pitti: the cupsys init script is missing a reload action (available in unstable)
[03:37] <pitti> doko: I know
[03:37] <pitti> doko: reload doesn't work as non-root
[03:37] <pitti> doko: and reload is optional by Debian Policy (force-reload must exist, and it does)
[03:38] <mvo> hm, update-manager for breezy-updates seems to be not build yet, I wonder if there is a problem with the uplaod
[03:42] <Kamion> mvo: I haven't approved it yet because as I said yesterday I don't especially like the version number; you're calling it FOO~backport1 when the source package is very different from version FOO
[03:42] <Kamion> generally anything identifying as "backport" should be pretty much the same as the backported thing
[03:43] <mvo> ok
[03:43] <mvo> I'll rename it ~breezy1 and reupload?
[03:43] <Kamion> is it intentionally very different?
[03:43] <mvo> yes
[03:43] <mvo> the complete SoftwareProperties code remains the old code, because the interaction between the it and synaptic changed in dapper
[03:43] <mvo> and I don't want to mess around there
[03:44] <mvo> so the complete SoftwareProperties/ part is essentially 0.37, but the UpdateManager/ bits are from 0.41
[03:45] <Kamion> ah, I see
[03:45] <Kamion> -Description: Ubuntu 6.04 "Dapper Drake"
[03:45] <Kamion> +Description: Breezy 6.04 "Dapper Drake"
[03:45] <mvo> *cough*
[03:45] <mvo> right
[03:45] <Kamion> that looks wrong :) and 6.04 should be 6.06 now
[03:45] <mvo> :)
[03:45] <Kamion> also the filename "ReleaseAnnouncement" is misspelt - dunno how hard that is to fix
[03:46] <Kamion> (as Anouncement
[03:46] <Kamion> )
[03:46] <mvo> oh, thanks
[03:46] <mvo> Not hard at all to fix
[03:46] <Kamion> there are some junk .moved files in the tarball
[03:47] <Kamion> debian/changelog~.moved.moved.moved :-)
[03:47] <Kamion> bzr is a bit funny like that
[03:47] <Kamion> I think the rest is fine, so reupload with ~breezy1 and I'll nudge it through
[03:48] <Kamion> sorry for the delay on feedbac
[03:48] <Kamion> k
[03:48] <mvo> no problem and thanks for this review!
[04:01] <Kamion> distro team meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now, in case anyone's forgotten
[04:15] <KaiL_> ah, new ATi-Drivers for X1300-X1900
[04:37] <mdke> Treenaks, #39447 has the readability issue with the fonts
[04:37] <mdke> bug #39447
[04:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39447 in fontconfig "New fontconfig update degrades appearance of fonts" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39447
[04:38] <Treenaks> I see
[04:40] <janimo> doko, about how much space does OOo take up on the install CD?
[04:40] <janimo> is openoffice.org by itself enough for a working install?
[04:40] <janimo> I see there are other recommended packages
[04:42] <doko> janimo: $ apt-cache show openoffice.org-core|grep ^Size
[04:42] <doko> Size: 29659168
[04:42] <janimo> doko, so -core package is enough for a working install?
[04:42] <doko> you have to do that for all related packages, probably you'll arrive at about 80MB
[04:42] <janimo> ah
[04:43] <doko> you may want to include openoffice.org-gcj
[04:43] <janimo> so 80M, does that include the gtk interface?
[04:43] <doko> $ apt-cache show openoffice.org-gnome|grep ^Size
[04:43] <doko> Size: 207354
[04:43] <janimo> doko, I don;t know much about OOo, just thinking it may be good to put in on xubuntu CD if there is space left
[04:43] <doko> sure
[04:43] <janimo> doko, does that in turn bring all gnome libs in not just gtk right?
[04:44] <janimo> the description mentions g-vfs
[04:44] <janimo> hmm, yes
[04:44] <doko> $ apt-cache show openoffice.org-gnome|grep ^Depends
[04:44] <doko> Depends: libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.9.0), libbonobo2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libcairo2 (>= 1.0.2-2), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.3.0), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libgconf2-4 (>= 2.11.1), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.8.5), libgnomevfs2-0 (>= 2.12.0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.8.0), liborbit2 (>= 1:2.10.0), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.10.4), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-4), libstlport4.6c2, libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxi6, libxinerama1, libxrandr2, libxren
[04:44] <doko> der1 (>= 1:0.9.0.2), openoffice.org-core (>> 2.0.2)
[04:44] <janimo> thank, yeah I was thinking aloud :)
[04:45] <janimo> is it really ugly without the gtk stuff?
[04:45] <mdke> I'd like to file a bug about vi being the default text editor: what package handles those defaults?
[04:46] <Treenaks> mdke: the packages themselves do, using the alternatives system
[04:46] <janimo> doko, would I also need the trasnsitional packages which are in ubuntu ship seed?
[04:46] <mdke> Treenaks, so it's a bug in "vim"?
[04:47] <Treenaks> mdke: no, it's a feature ;)
[04:47] <Treenaks> imho
[04:47] <pitti> vim++
[04:47] <pitti> :)
[04:47] <doko> janimo: you would save 190 bytes per package ;-P
[04:47] <mdke> Treenaks, oh please.
[04:47] <Treenaks> mdke: Dropping to the shell is a bug. Not being able to cope with the shell is not a bug.
[04:47] <mdke> vim may be good, but it's not a good default
[04:47] <janimo> doko, I know :) but is it needed for some update scenario?
[04:48] <janimo> anyway I'll put htose then if OOo goes on the cd
[04:48] <mdke> Treenaks, that's dreamland, as you know. There is a middle ground between those two things
[04:48] <Treenaks> mdke: fix the problem, not hack the solution
[04:48] <doko> sure, for update from breezy
[04:48] <janimo> ok
[04:49] <mdke> Treenaks, right now, there is no gui to handle cron, that I know of. it's a common thing for a new user to drop to the command line and edit the crontab. Now, the new user has to learn vim basics to do it
[04:49] <mdke> that doesn't make a lot of sense
[04:49] <Treenaks> mdke: How do you know it's a common thing?
[04:49] <Treenaks> mdke: Most new users I've seen don't know cron _exists_
[04:50] <Treenaks> mdke: and there's gnome-schedule
[04:50] <mdke> Treenaks, because we're often asked to deal with it in the guide. Especially doing a command on each boot
[04:50] <janimo> Kamion, are livecd mem requirements >128M now?
[04:50] <Kamion> janimo: I have no idea offhand
[04:50] <mdke> Treenaks, anyway, that is one example of many. There are loads of command line tasks that intermediate users want to know, without having to learn ":wq" to do it
[04:50] <Kamion> mdke: I'm sure we always intended the default editor to be nano, and I'm sure it used to be nano too
[04:51] <janimo> ok, since ogra said people run it on 256M in the context of talking about low mem :)
[04:51] <Treenaks> mdke: tell them to 'nano blah'
[04:51] <mdke> Kamion, yeah, it was
[04:51] <Treenaks> mdke: problem solved
[04:51] <ogra> janimo, yes, but i wanted to hear if 256M is low or not :)
[04:51] <mdke> Treenaks, no... because lots of programs use the default editor, without you calling the name of the editor on the command line
[04:51] <ogra> seamms nobody measured the minimal requirements yet
[04:51] <mdke> crontab is an example, there are others
[04:51] <janimo> ogra, 256M is a lot :)
[04:51] <mdke> Kamion, so do I file the bug on "nano"?
[04:52] <Kamion> mdke: dunno whether nano or vim is at fault, but I suppose nano is a good start
[04:52] <mdke> Kamion, alright. Thanks!
[04:52] <ogra> janimo, 256M is the smalles "normal" machine i have around here (the smaller ones are thin client hardware without local CDRom)
[04:52] <bddebian> Yeah, that "bug" blows
[04:53] <Kamion> you can always boot with mem=128M or whatever to test
[04:53] <janimo> ogra, the machines around here are 64, 192 and 512 all with cds. I'd still prefer 256 to not be considered low ;)
[04:53] <Kamion> don't have to actually pull out memory sticks
[04:53] <janimo> sure
[04:53] <janimo> or qemu
[04:53] <Yagisan> ogra: I have a box here with 112MB
[04:54] <ogra> Yagisan, as a "non thin client" ?
[04:54] <Kamion> if you have a box on which qemu is actually bearably fast, more power to you
[04:54] <Yagisan> ogra: not yet
[04:54] <ogra> heh
[04:54] <janimo> Kamion, actually is about as fast as the low-end machines that are to be emulated :)
[04:54] <janimo> that is slooow
[04:55] <Kamion> d-i doesn't take five minutes just to get to the first screen on any real machine I've ever used it on
[04:55] <mdke> Kamion, it's at bug #39469, thanks
[04:55] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39469 in vim "Nano is not the default editor, and should be" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39469
[04:56] <janimo> Kamion, hmm it was not quite as slow here. 1,73 Ghz laptop
[04:56] <bddebian> mdke: You haven't fixed that yet? :-)
[04:56] <janimo> although I'll need to try the qemu kernel accelerator sometime
[04:57] <pitti> mdke: hm, so vim is prio 20, vim-gtk/gnome is prio 40, nano is prio 40, too
[04:57] <pitti> mdke: did you get plain text mode vim, or gvim?
[04:57] <jjesse> vim is the default for kubuntu as well which i wish was nano
[04:57] <jjesse> it used to be nano for kubuntu
[04:57] <mdke> pitti, plain text. Just installed from flight 6 yesterday and upgraded.
[04:57] <pitti> hm, I get text mode vim here as well
[04:58] <jjesse> it threw me off when i tried to commit docs via svn and didn't remember the sequeence to quit vim :(
[04:58] <ogra> doesnt gvim fall back to vim if DISPLAY isnt set ? 
[04:58] <mdke> bddebian, I'm better at filing bugs than fixing them :/
[04:58] <bddebian> Heh
[05:00] <jjesse> mdke: same for me :)
[05:02] <ogra> pitti, try "gvim ./blah.txt" on a console, it will complain about DISPLAY and fall back to vim ...
[05:02] <mdke> that must be the reason
[05:02] <pitti> ogra: no, 'command not found' :)
[05:02] <mdke> actually no
[05:02] <mdke> it isn't installed
[05:02] <ogra> oh, k
[05:02] <pitti> ogra: so, I don't have gvim installed, nano *should* be prefered *boggle*
[05:09] <Kamion> mvo: so, how does this startup notification thing work then?
[05:09] <Kamion> ideally without depending on gnome libraries, otherwise janimo will hurt me
[05:11] <mvo> Kamion: how is espresso currently started? both gksu and the panel support startup notification out of the box 
[05:11] <Kamion> is it just a matter of putting StartupNotify=true in the desktop file?
[05:11] <Kamion> desktop file
[05:11] <vuntz_> Kamion: it works this way in most of the cases, yes
[05:11] <Kamion> excellent, easy then
[05:11] <Kamion> does KDE support that too?
[05:11] <vuntz_> (at least for standard GTK+ apps)
[05:11] <vuntz_> I believe
[05:12] <Kamion> I thought it was a GNOME library that handled sending the remove message back to the WM
[05:12] <mvo> Kamion: how do you become root in espresso?
[05:12] <Keybuk> anyone need me for anything?  going to go back offline and carry on debugging this network issue
[05:13] <Kamion> mvo: gksudo in the desktop file, at least it will be once I go back to using gksudo (it was broken earlier, if you remember)
[05:13] <mdke> Keybuk, is it a bug if my network interfaces are named differently in dapper than in breezy (swapped)?
[05:13] <Riddell> Kamion: startup notification has been in KDE for years, you get a little bouncing mouse cursor
[05:13] <mdke> Keybuk, (they seem to work)
[05:14] <Kamion> Riddell: same method, StartupNotify=true in desktop file?
[05:14] <Riddell> Kamion: no, it's on by default for all programmes, I've not heard of that .desktop syntax before
[05:14] <Keybuk> mdke: not really, it means your /etc/iftab file wasn't correct in breezy
[05:15] <vuntz_> Riddell: it's in the spec :-)
[05:15] <Keybuk> I've asked mvo whether it'd be possible to fix that in the upgrade tool
[05:15] <mvo> Kamion: hm, if you use gksu, it should work out of the box now
[05:15] <vuntz_> " If true, it is KNOWN that the application will send a "remove" message when started with the DESKTOP_LAUNCH_ID environment variable set (see the Startup Notification Protocol Specification for more details)."
[05:15] <mvo> Keybuk: I haven't looked at it yet :/
[05:15] <Kamion> mvo: with or without StartupNotify=true in .desktop?
[05:15] <mdke> Keybuk, okay, thanks
[05:15] <mvo> Kamion: without
[05:15] <Keybuk> mvo: I suspect the easiest thing is to drop me an e-mail telling me where to put the code <g>
[05:15] <Kamion> ok, I'll test it
[05:15] <vuntz_> Riddell: KDE should definitely put this in the .desktop file if it doesn't do it
[05:16] <mvo> Kamion: I just rsynced the image, looking at it now
[05:16] <vuntz_> Riddell: GNOME won't use startup notification if the line is not there
[05:16] <mvo> Keybuk: yes that might be easiest :)
[05:17] <sivang> anybody in for a package review and sponsered upload to universe of a HUB that's ready tp be presented to users and testing? :)
[05:17] <Kamion> mvo: works, but it's a bit odd, the panel entry is "Grant Rights"
[05:18] <mvo> Kamion: if you use "gksu" instead of "sudo" in the desktop file it works for me
[05:18] <mvo> Kamion: oh
[05:18] <mvo> Kamion: yeah I guess I should add a option for this
[05:18] <Kamion> which makes me go "huh? I clicked on 'Install System Permanently'"
[05:18] <Kamion> mvo: can gksu find the desktop file it was invoked from?
[05:19] <Kamion> also I'm using gksudo rather than gksu, is that wrong?
[05:19] <mvo> Kamion: sort of, it has a --desktop option, but you need to give it a full path IIRC
[05:19] <mvo> Kamion: well, gksu and gksudo really are the same on a current ubuntu system, we use a gconf key to make gksu behave like gksudo 
[05:20] <vuntz_> mvo, Kamion: use "--desktop %k" then :-)
[05:20] <Kamion> tried --desktop, still says "Grant Rights"
[05:20] <mvo> vuntz_: rock, that sounds cool
[05:20] <mvo> Kamion: it won't display anything else until it learns that, this startup notification stuff is a pretty recent feature
[05:23] <Kamion> mvo: right, thanks for the help - committed
[05:24] <mvo> Kamion: cheers, I made a note to make this message a bit more sensible
[05:25] <Kamion> mdz: do you think I should remove espresso's scary warning page for the beta?
[05:26] <Kamion> or just make it a bit less scary? it's had the same text since pretty much the first upload
[05:33] <sivang> okay, anyone, please ping me when you can, the source is at http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/HUB/
[05:35] <mdz> Kamion: bit less scary, mention prominently that it's a beta release and not final
[05:35] <mvo> is it known that brltty asks a debconf question on install/upgrade?
[05:39] <mdke> mvo, I dunno if the right person knows about it or not, but if you need a confirmation, it does here too
[05:40] <tritium> I noticed that last night also, mvo
[05:40] <Kamion> sivang: Ian's on vacation
[05:40] <bddebian> Heya tritium
[05:41] <tritium> Hi bddebian :)
[05:41] <tritium> bddebian: you've been active on ubuntu-science!
[05:41] <sivang> Kamion: ah I see, wheren is e supposed to come back?
[05:41] <Kamion> mvo: I think that's addressed by the new version in dapper, but it doesn't seem to have built
[05:41] <bddebian> tritium: Yeah, all I can fix are missing .desktop files :-(
[05:42] <tritium> bddebian: a very good thing to do!
[05:42] <bddebian> Yeah, but it would be nice if I could do something a little more substantial :-(
[05:44] <tritium> bddebian: the sum of all you've done is quite substantial
[05:44] <bddebian> pfft, but thanks
[05:45] <sivang> mdke: the hebrew translated ffox start page on his way to you
[05:45] <mdke> sivang, ok. thanks
[05:48] <Riddell> hello mh21 
[05:48] <mdke> sivang, got it, thanks
[05:48] <mh21> Riddell: hi, took me a while to get gaim with irc going
[05:49] <Riddell> mh21: I hear that you are going to be the saviour of kubuntu
[05:49] <sivang> mdke: thank the guy who did it , erez :)
[05:50] <mh21> Riddell: :-), did the patch work for basic kde printing?
[05:50] <Riddell> mh21: yep, printing seems to work good now
[05:50] <Riddell> mh21: but it still complains when no printers are defined that it can't get the list from cups
[05:51] <Riddell> mh21: and there's a compile failure that I worked around by commenting it out
[05:51] <Riddell> (I was building against pitti's rc2 packages)
[05:51] <Fjodor> Does anyone know J. Bailey's nick? I sent him a mail with a patch for glibc some time ago, and would like to hear whether it will be included (haven't heard from him)...
[05:51] <Riddell> jbailey
[05:52] <mdke> Fjodor, jbailey
[05:52] <mh21> Riddell: hmm, it worked for me while just making the kdeprint/cups directory, what failed?
[05:52] <Fjodor> Thanks. So he isn't here right now...
[05:52] <mh21> Riddell: I will look into the no-printers issue
[05:52] <mdke> Fjodor, he's not in this channel...
[05:52] <Riddell> mh21: kdeprint/cups/ipprequest.cpp
[05:52] <Riddell> mh21: use of _ipp_free_attr(attr2); near the bottom
[05:53] <Fjodor> Oh, fair enough :-) Does he hang out on IRC at all?
[05:53] <Riddell> that's a private function and presumably it doesn't exist any more
[05:53] <mdke> Fjodor, yes... he's on now
[05:53] <mh21> Riddell: right, a have a second small patch from kde svn that fixes this
[05:53] <Fjodor> Great, thanks
[05:53] <Riddell> mh21: oh, cool
[05:54] <Kinnison> go faster damnit
[05:55] <Riddell> mh21: by the way it's been suggested that canonical might be willing to pay a bounty for this, you'd need to talk to them first if you want to claim that
[05:59] <Kinnison> Anyone here got a full source mirror on a machine I could get a shell on?
[05:59] <Kinnison> I need to do an analysis and I don't have a source mirror here and I appear to have lost connectivity to the canonical DC
[06:00] <mh21> Riddell: this would be nice, I think I will talk to pitti about it when he comes back from his easter shopping
[06:04] <sivang> mdz: HUB is ready to be presented to users and receive lovely bug reports ;-) , I recalled you said it would be okay to upload it to universe when it comes to that stage, just making sure since universe is in FF.
[06:08] <lemsx1> hello all
[06:08] <lemsx1> when unicode_start starts in my system it stops the boot process
[06:08] <lemsx1> i had to go to TTY2 and press ENTER for it to continue
[06:08] <KaiL_> ..who killed the web-server?
[06:08] <lemsx1> does anybody has an idea why that happens?
[06:10] <Seveas> lemsx1, this channel is not for support
[06:10] <lemsx1> Seveas: this is a problem in dapper, not a support but a development question (i'm working on splashy)
[06:10] <lemsx1> Seveas: this problem doesn't happen with breezy
[06:10] <mdke> KaiL_, if you're referring to apache, you can report bugs in the bug tracker. If you're referring to an Ubuntu website, the servers are down at the moment.
[06:11] <KaiL_> the second ;)
[06:12] <mdke> KaiL_, they are back now
[06:21] <\sh> elmo / znarl: www.kubuntu.org port 80 is down ... 
[07:05] <pitti> Riddell: re
[07:05] <pitti> Riddell: I read the scrollback; mh21 will come to me in about an hour, then we'll talk about the plan for KDE and so
[07:08] <Riddell> pitti: cool
[07:09] <Kinnison> pitti: did those langpacks work?
[07:11] <pitti> Kinnison: didn't check, apt-get updating now
[07:13] <pitti> Kinnison: yep, sources looks fine, some binaries still need to be built
[07:13] <Kinnison> pitti: coolio
[07:13] <Kinnison> ciau
[07:34] <lemsx1> ok, i think i understand why the boot process is stopped now
[07:35] <lemsx1> when /etc/environment sets up the console to UTF8, unicode_start will be called
[07:35] <lemsx1> and at the very end of that file a char sequence is sent to /dev/vcs/* console files
[07:35] <lemsx1>  /bin/echo -n -e '\033%G' > ${DEVICE_PREFIX}${vc}
[07:36] <lemsx1> that prevents the system from starting. one has to go into TTY2 and press ENTER for it to continue
[07:36] <lemsx1> the temporary solution for this is:
[07:36] <lemsx1>  /bin/echo -n -e '\033%G' >& ${DEVICE_PREFIX}${vc}
[07:36] <lemsx1> which sends the echo redirect to the background
[07:39] <phaidros__> what might be wrong if bootsplash is gone and console terminals remain black (but X come up) after complete old kernel removal?
[08:28] <sebpayne> i've installed flight 6
[08:28] <sebpayne> and dist-upgraded to the latest stuff
[08:28] <sebpayne> and some of the wallpapers from the Examples folder have gone
[08:28] <sebpayne> is that on purpose?
[08:29] <Burgwork> sebpayne, they have moved into ubuntu-artwork
[08:29] <sebpayne> are they still installed?
[08:31] <mdke> sebpayne, yeah, it's on purpose.
[08:31] <sebpayne> mdke, thanks
[08:31] <sebpayne> mdke, just that they are no longer there and it seemed a nice touch
[08:32] <mdke> sebpayne, well the example-content stuff is for showing off programs, and wallpapers aren't examples for any programs
[08:32] <sebpayne> mdke, i see
[08:32] <sebpayne> mdke, is there the possiblity of a wallpapers pckage?
[08:33] <mdke> sebpayne, I personally hope so. the wallpapers haven't gone into ubuntu-artwork, at the moment
[08:33] <sebpayne> mdke, awesome, thanks
[08:33] <mdke> sebpayne, there is a gnome-backgrounds package, if someone were to make an ubuntu-backgrounds package, i think it would go down well
[08:33] <sebpayne> mdke, just something simple to get rid of the cranes
[08:33] <sebpayne> mdke, i've had experience with package making - who should i see?
[08:33] <sebpayne> mdke, i could try and help
[08:34] <mdke> sebpayne, henrik@ubuntu.com can give you the wallpapers, I'll dig out a bug number for you
[08:34] <mdke> sebpayne, bug #37852
[08:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 37852 in example-content "wallpapers don't belong in example-content" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/37852
[08:35] <mdke> i don't know anything about packaging, maybe you can just adopt the gnome-backgrounds style, or something similar
[08:35] <sebpayne> thanks guys
[08:35] <sebpayne> mdke, i'll just stick with plain brown :-)
[08:35] <mdke> sebpayne, I'll send you dapper.png, if you like
[08:36] <sebpayne> mdke, awesome thanks - sebpayne@gmail.com
[08:36] <mdke> ok
[08:36] <sebpayne> mdke, just the whole idea of polish, polish, polish would be great with some tastefully selected backgrounds
[08:36] <sebpayne> mdke, there are some very crude ubuntu ones i've seen
[08:37] <mdke> sebpayne, sure. henrik will definitely have some good stuff for you
[08:40] <sebpayne> mdke, it'll be fun to get back into ubuntu gain
[08:41] <mdke> sebpayne, are you the same as spayne?
[08:41] <sebpayne> mdke, yes :-(
[08:54] <dsas> sebpayne: Are you the guy who wrote the iFolder howtos?
[08:54] <sebpayne> dsas, ages go, yes
[08:54] <sebpayne> dsas, do they need updating?
[08:54] <dsas> sebpayne: I don't suppose you'd mind updating them for Dapper?
[08:54] <sebpayne> dsas, not at all
[08:54] <sebpayne> dsas, there are novell repos now so it should be a lot easier
[08:54] <dsas> sebpayne: I'm not sure, I think I read about simple-server being changed on someones blog.
[08:55] <sebpayne> dsas, simple-server no longer eists
[08:55] <sebpayne> dsas, the full server is now availble with SSL and web admin
[08:55] <dsas> sebpayne: that may be what I read. 
[08:56] <sebpayne> dsas, i'll get to work now
[08:56] <_ion> http://media.revver.com/broadcast/19542/video.mov
[08:56] <dsas> sebpayne: Plus I'm considering setting it up to share my laptops homedir and it'll be easier if someone has updated the documentation for me ;)
[08:57] <sebpayne> dsas, ha ha ha :-)
[08:58] <dsas> sebpayne: Is this 'full server' still simple?
[08:58] <sebpayne> dsas, now there are packages, even more so
[08:58] <sebpayne> just an apt-get away
[09:33] <Amaranth> grr
[09:38] <Tm_T> ahha
[09:38] <Tm_T> removing gdm fails
[09:40] <Tm_T> 'invoke-rc.d: initscript gdm, action "reload" failed.'
[09:40] <Tm_T> something wrong in package, right?
[09:41] <Tm_T> I try reinstall an remove
[09:43] <Tm_T> nah
[09:51] <Tm_T> ohwell, there's always hammer
[09:53] <KaiL_> idea to make installing the proprietary drivers a bit more obvious (and so reduce questions, because people fail while installing the versions from the vendors):
[09:54] <KaiL_> if we detect an nvidia-card, install (not activate) nvidia-glx and add a script to enable it to the desktop
[09:54] <KaiL_> same for ATI fglrx, except there this scipt doesn't exist jet
[09:56] <Yagisan> KaiL_: would that be on every desktop ?
[09:56] <Yagisan> KaiL_: for all users ?
[09:56] <KaiL_> Yagisan, not on those with an intel-graphics chip ;)
[09:56] <KaiL_> the idea is just to show the users HOW to enable those drivers
[09:57] <KaiL_> and to avoid, that they try to install the drivers from nvidia.com or ati.com and fail
[09:57] <Yagisan> KaiL_: It's not something I'd like to pop up on my ubuntu ltsp client desktops, just because the server has an nvidia video card
[09:57] <Treenaks> What if I buy a new card, from a different manufactuerer?
[09:58] <KaiL_> Treenaks, for now that's a situation, that ubuntu doesn't handle at all
[09:58] <Yagisan> KaiL_: I personally think it should be enabled on install if possible
[09:58] <KaiL_> Yagisan, those drivers are very often not suspend save
[09:58] <KaiL_> not to forget the GPL-fanatics
[09:58] <Yagisan> KaiL_: I've never tried suspend, so I don't know.
[09:59] <KaiL_> i do it very often, esp. on laptops, as it's more or less the only thing, which fails
[10:00] <Yagisan> KaiL_: perhaps something that pops up on first reboot, like oem mode ?
[10:00] <KaiL_> Treenaks, normally at least parts of the xorg install config should be re-run on every reboot
[10:01] <KaiL_> I'd like to see an rather easy solution to do this after some testing - and btw. use the same way to DISable those drivers
[10:01] <KaiL_> another idea might be a menu entry for the enable/disable script
[10:01] <Yagisan> KaiL_: OK, System -> Administration -> Accelerated Video Drivers
[10:02] <KaiL_> yes, something like that
[10:02] <Yagisan> KaiL_: turns on/off nvidia/ati and anything else
[10:02] <KaiL_> for the first only switches ati/radeon <-> fglrx or nv <-> nvidia
[10:04] <KaiL_> currently problems while installing those drivers are one of the most common support problems
[10:04] <Yagisan> KaiL_: might need to be vesa <-> proprietary for some newer cards
[10:05] <KaiL_> Yagisan, nop. If we detect an ati-card, it'll be always the ati driver
[10:05] <KaiL_> if this doesn't work, there is a fallback planned, so it's not required to set vesa manually
[10:06] <Yagisan> KaiL_: even their current generation cards ? (my last ati was a 7200)
[10:07] <KaiL_> Yagisan, afaik the fallback is not implemented yet, but the config still sets a vendor related driver
[10:08] <KaiL_> I only don't know about matrox Parhelia, for which ubuntu doesn't ship the proprietary driver and the "mga" one will never handle them
[10:13] <KaiL_> ...ok, and at least flight4 used vesa for intel 915
[10:20] <mjg59> KaiL_: That's a bug
[10:20] <KaiL_> mjg59, fixed since?
[10:20] <mjg59> No
[10:21] <mjg59> It will be at some point
[10:21] <KaiL_> even more interesting, that I had an freeze while starting X on an FSC Amilo M1450 with i915...
[10:22] <KaiL_> might be, that the chip is not fully vesa compatible?
[10:22] <KaiL_> that was with flight6
[10:41] <Tonio_> hi all
[10:43] <bddebian> Hello Tonio_
[10:44] <Tonio_> hey bddebian
[11:01] <Tm_T> KaiL_: agree, it's big problem that users try install drivers from ati.com or whatever and fail
[11:02] <KaiL_> Tm_T, on #ubuntu-de we need about half the time for such problems
[11:02] <Tm_T> KaiL_: script idea is good, also some kind of "desktop FAQ" in desktop could be damn good
[11:02] <KaiL_> ..the other harf are bad install howtos on printer vendors pages ;)
[11:03] <Tm_T> KaiL_: in desktop as icon to web page or something
[11:03] <KaiL_> imho great idea
[11:03] <Tm_T> ;)
[11:04] <Tm_T> spending almost 24/7 in irc helping ubuntu (l)users has done its work in me ;)
[11:04] <Mithrandir> Riddell: please file bugs for stuff you want to get into casper, don't just upload, kthxbye.
[11:05] <bddebian> casper?
[11:06] <Yagisan> bddebian: live cd stuff
[11:07] <bddebian> Ah
[11:07] <KaiL_> Tm_T, now we only need to explain that to the related developers ;)
[11:08] <Tm_T> KaiL_: haha, or do it our own in silence ] ;=
[11:08] <KaiL_> well, that doesn't bring this script on the CD
[11:09] <Tm_T> KaiL_: I'm more to "FAQ" than script but...
[11:09] <KaiL_> do you think, the users read FAQs?
[11:10] <Tm_T> KaiL_: force them
[11:10] <KaiL_> how? if they asg about the drivers, it's mostly too late
[11:10] <Tm_T> in first login that FAQ opens and say in big red letters "READ THIS!"
[11:12] <Tm_T> well, 99% skip it but they asks it themself
[11:12] <Tm_T> trouble I mean
[11:13] <KaiL_> as I said - if they already tried to install the driver, it's to late
[11:13] <KaiL_> then they already created useless workload for them and for the support
[11:14] <Tm_T> KaiL_: true
[11:14] <Tm_T> KaiL_: but if they already skipped first step of support, that FAQ, they aksed that workload
[11:15] <Tm_T> and... well, I'd say script and FAQ then =)
[11:15] <KaiL_> yes
[11:15] <Tm_T> I can't understand how people think to move to new system without reading anything
[11:15] <KaiL_> FAQ not only for this question, but also for other common questions, which might come up AFTER the release
[11:16] <Tm_T> "I wan't that 'ok' button, I don't care how system works"
[11:16] <mdke> you guys might want to talk about this in #ubuntu-doc
[11:16] <Yagisan> Tm_T: I can. one word. lazy.
[11:16] <mdke> it's kinda off topic for this channel
[11:16] <KaiL_> the script to shorten THIS problem
[11:16] <KaiL_> mdke, the FAQ is off-topic, the script on-topic ;)
[11:16] <Tm_T> Yagisan: then why new system? if you're lazy, you stick in old
[11:16] <mdke> KaiL_, well, it's all off topic really
[11:16] <Tm_T> indeed
[11:17] <Tm_T> KaiL_: FAQ for everything ofcourse
[11:17] <Tm_T> and I stop here ;)
[11:17] <KaiL_> -> #ubuntu-doc
[11:17] <Tm_T> mdke: I would but I can't join #ubuntu-doc without losing some other channel
[11:17] <mdke> Tm_T, that's ok, the guide already exists.
[11:17] <KaiL_> Tm_T, huh? how that? ;)
[11:18] <Tm_T> KaiL_: channel limit of freenode =)
[11:18] <Tm_T> mdke: yes, but it's not in desktop, that's the point ;)
[11:18] <Tm_T> oh well
[11:18] <mdke> Tm_T, it's in the desktop
[11:18] <Tm_T> it is?
[11:18] <KaiL_> mdke, an FAQ, which can be updated after the release, is easy accessible and is localised exists?
[11:19] <mdke> KaiL_, a guide. no, yes, yes
[11:19] <Tm_T> I do know nothing about defaults
[11:24] <KaiL_> I start to hate my Acer laptop
[11:25] <Tm_T> KaiL_: you can have mine in chance, 486sx with 4M ram
[11:26] <KaiL_> bah... not usefull for testing
[11:26] <KaiL_> but really good does this not work - hangs on booting