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[12:08] <kmon> may I ask if after the beta release the new ati drivers will be added to dapper?
[12:12] <mathrick> jdong: umm, no
[12:12] <jdong> nm, already in malone (33811)
[12:12] <jdong> kind of concerned me at first :)
[12:12] <mdke> kmon, no
[12:13] <jdong> that'd be a good bug to fix :)
[12:13] <jdong> simple two-liner, but pretty important if we don't want to break hard drives for beta testers
[12:14] <kmon> mdke: may I ask why?
[12:17] <mdke> kmon, new drivers don't get added at the last minute, there is quite a rigorous release cycle that Ubuntu adhers to. Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule for any more details
[12:18] <kmon> mdke: new nvidia drivers were added not too long ago... and since they provide support for newer ati x1xxx cards and we haven't yet arrived The kernel freeze.... I thought it was a good addition
[12:18] <KaiL> so better the guarantee, that Ubuntu is unusable on ATI X1xxx-Chips (as also the vesa-fix didn't happen), that a rather small risk, that there are problems on older cards?
[12:18] <kmon> mdke: anyway, thanks for answering...
[12:20] <mdke> kmon, if there is just something for the kernel, I suppose the developers might consider it. It would depend on the risk of adding problems. File a bug, and see what they say
[12:22] <jdong> kmon: does the new update add new chipsets?
[12:22] <jdong> do we currently support the X1xxx chipsets?
[12:23] <jdong> they're pretty common on new laptops
[12:23] <kmon> jdong: yes
[12:23] <kmon> jdong: https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/linux_8.24.8.html#178987
[12:23] <mdke> jdong, a few lines up, he said that these aren't yet supported
[12:23] <KaiL> jdong, currently you end up in blue with X1xxx
[12:23] <jdong> I see
[12:23] <jdong> I'd say this is a worthwhile update then....
[12:23] <jdong> at least to try
[12:23] <KaiL> means, they are TOTALLY unsupported without the new driver
[12:23] <KaiL> except vesa, which you need to set manually
[12:24] <kmon> as a bonus, someone said it fixes issues kdm has with fglrx
[12:24] <kmon> but I'm not sure about that
[12:24] <kmon> anyway, I agree with you, it's a wothwile update
[12:25] <KaiL> kmon, I don#t even know, it ANY update is more worth currently
[12:26] <mdke> KaiL, let's try and stop being melodramatic about this. Just file a bug, and wait and see
[12:27] <mdke> maybe there is already a bug about this
[12:27] <kmon> for the record I haven't found a bug report, so I've filed a whishlist: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/39924
[12:28] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39924 in Ubuntu "New driver is out 8.24.8 and it supports many new cards" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  
[12:28] <mdke> nice
[12:28] <mdke> if vesa isn't working as a backstop, that's another bug, I suppose
[12:29] <KaiL> bug 35194
[12:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 35194 in xserver-xorg-driver-ati "activated but not usable on X1xxx" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/35194
[12:29] <KaiL> there we have the wrong default driver
[12:30] <KaiL> the installer sets "ati" (which doesn't even start)
[12:30] <kmon> ok, time to sleep.... good night everyone here.
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[12:36] <KaiL> for the other problem with modern laptops (intel ipw3945) putting them into the backports might be an idea
[12:36] <KaiL> overall using backports for updated external drivers would be nice...
[12:36] <cartel_> Manoj: ping
[12:36] <jdong> KaiL: I was told by sabdfl last night that 3945 will be in dapper
[12:36] <jdong> it's being worked on
[12:36] <crimsun> cartel_: ECHANNEL?
[12:36] <jdong> he feels it's very important
[12:36] <KaiL> jdong, even better
[12:37] <cartel_> crimsun: oops
[12:37] <jdong> and I'm pretty uneasy about using backports for kernel drivers
[12:37] <jdong> unless there's some serious coordinating with the -securty branch.... you're gonna end up with a nightmare of broken modules during security updates
[12:37] <crimsun> if you value your life, don't mention the strings "backport" and "kernel" in the same breath around the kernel team
[12:37] <jdong> lol
[12:38] <KaiL> lol
[12:38] <jdong> crimsun: not even with a "not" somewhere in the sentence?
[12:38] <jdong> I've only B'd a K once... in the Warty days, for a friend :)
[12:38] <crimsun> (well, unless it's something backported from >2.6.15 into Dapper's)
[12:39] <jdong> you sure you don't want 2.6.15-20 for warty? ;)
[12:39] <jdong> lol
[12:39] <cartel_> can we get 2.6.16? :)
[12:39] <Burgwork> cartel_, bi
[12:39] <Burgwork> no, even
=== KaiL rememberes of the 2.6.11 in hoary universe...:)
[12:39] <KaiL> afaik it doesn't even boot for most people
[12:39] <Burgwork> KaiL, that is something they are not repeating
[12:40] <jdong> lol
[12:40] <jdong> that was entertaining
[12:40] <KaiL> that's why I only thought about this drivers
[12:40] <jdong> or that crappy ooo2 snapshot in universe... m79...
[12:40] <jdong> KaiL: a lot of times you can't isolate just drivers
[12:40] <jdong> drivers love to patch elsewhere onto the system
[12:40] <jdong> especially 3945... that thing has a usermode closed source regulator daemon
[12:41] <KaiL> I don't know, but it should be possible, to recreate the linux-restricted-modules packages and the related stuff with new data afterwards, or?
[12:41] <LaserJock> hmm, and I wanted a forward-ported 2.4 kernel ;-)
[12:41] <KaiL> jdong, at most I'm thinking about fglrx and nvidia
[12:42] <jdong> KaiL: currently, backports is not authorized to modify source packages. What if a security update requires a patch for nvidia or fglrx to compile?
[12:42] <jdong> then you end up with a screwed situation
[12:42] <jdong> of backports not being able to keep up with -security
[12:42] <jdong> and everyone bitches and screams
[12:42] <jdong> and I lose more years off my life expectancy
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[12:43] <KaiL> at least for a longer future, we need to find a solution, how to update at least important drivers after the release...
[12:43] <jdong> agreed...
[12:43] <jdong> even if that means a nasty updater script
[12:44] <KaiL> else you always have a hole of up to 7, maybe 8 month, between hardware release and using it on ubuntu
[12:44] <jdong> KaiL: what stops users from updating drivers themselves?
[12:44] <jdong> we can't be bug-free and bleeding edge at the same time....
[12:44] <jdong> it's physically not possible
[12:44] <KaiL> the very complicate system to update them?
[12:45] <jdong> very complicated?
[12:45] <jdong> with nivida, it's two commands
[12:45] <KaiL> yes, there
[12:45] <jdong> is it that bad for fglrx?
[12:45] <KaiL> but that's not the normal situation
[12:45] <KaiL> (not to mention, that you need as least 3 for nvidia)
[12:46] <jdong> sudo sh nvidia-installer-package
[12:46] <jdong> ok, fine, apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r`
[12:46] <jdong> apt-get remove nvidia-glx --purge
[12:46] <jdong> maybe there are three
[12:46] <jdong> :)
[12:46] <KaiL> wget
[12:46] <KaiL> and install build-essential
[12:46] <KaiL> makes 4 lines ;)
[12:47] <jdong> lol
[12:47] <jdong> sudo apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r` build-essential
[12:47] <KaiL> at least more that "click on the installer", and even that is bad enough
[12:47] <KaiL> apt-get install, apt-get remove, wget, sh - 4.
[12:48] <KaiL> now all happy? ;)
[12:48] <sabdfl> jdong: i don't know about 3945, i hope it is on track, but it's up to benc
[12:48] <jdong> make a shell script that automates all of them, and distribute it as the next new Automatix :)
[12:48] <jdong> well, he did say "in progress", so my hopes are up :)
[12:48] <BenC> ipw3945 is showing a lot of problems because of "yet another ieee80211 stack update"
[12:48] <jdong> :-/
[12:49] <KaiL> ugs
[12:49] <jdong> KaiL, you were saying about driver updates?...... ;)
[12:49] <sabdfl> hi BenC
[12:49] <BenC> all of our wireless adapters are using different and sometimes incredibly hacked versions of ieee80211
[12:49] <BenC> hey sabdfl
[12:49] <KaiL> jdong, ?
[12:49] <jdong> not so easy, is it?
[12:49] <sabdfl> seems insane that there's so little common wireless infrastructure in the kernel
[12:49] <jdong> BenC: btw, I do appreciate how many wireless adapters we support out-of-the-box
[12:49] <BenC> ipw3945 will make it into dapper, but it's just not super priority ATM
[12:50] <jdong> thanks, BenC... glad to hear :)
[12:50] <BenC> sabdfl: the wireless confcerence going on as we speak will hopefully address that
[12:50] <KaiL> sabdfl, even worse, that these are 3 versions from intel..
[12:50] <BenC> softmac and all the rt2x00 stuff, and stock ieee80211 will hopefully be pretty standard in 2.6.18, for dapper+1
[12:51] <jdong> does anyone know if rt2x00 plays better with preempt and SMP yet?
[12:51] <jdong> rt2570.. the USB one particularly
[12:51] <KaiL> another word to raise the aggressions: WPA
[12:51] <KaiL> something new on that?
[12:51] <jdong> it does everything from locking to panicing if you breathe incorrectly on the card
[12:51] <BenC> rt2x00 looked pretty discusting last I checked, so no telling :)
[12:52] <BenC> disgusting
[12:52] <jdong> and it was supposedto be the wonderful rewrite, too 
[12:52] <jdong> lol
[12:52] <KaiL> it's now in main, ok, but to use it, you'll need to fight with /etc/network/interfaces manually?
[12:52] <jdong> KaiL: networkmanager deals with it... right?
[12:52] <jdong> it'd be cool if our /etc/network/interfaces frontend did, too...
[12:53] <KaiL> jdong, which got kicked out of the live-cd afaik
[12:53] <BenC> one day I'll make the switch to WPA so I can test all that, but right now I'm still on 128-bit WEP
[12:53] <jdong> oh?
[12:54] <jdong> so does the 3945 driver not compile at all currently on dapper?
[12:55] <jdong> or is it just a matter of packaging/integrating into the ubuntu kernel that's the problem?
[12:55] <KaiL> or it just killes other WLAN drivers
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[12:56] <BenC> the ieee80211 for 3945 stack needs to be segregated so it doesn't conflict with the stock one in 2.6.15
[12:56] <BenC> we did that for another wireless driver aswell
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[12:57] <jdong> what is our opinion on the bittorrent 4 license?
[12:57] <jdong> I get a lot of complaints about BT 4
[12:57] <jdong> not being in ubuntu an all...
[12:57] <jdong> and debian-legal seems to hate it
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[12:58] <jdong> is it something that we can get for dapper+1
[12:58] <jdong> it's undoubtedly way too late now for Dapper to transition to the BT 4 api
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[02:22] <nekohayo> just to make sure I'm not the only one experiencing it (i.e.: PEBKAC), does anyone have direct rendering working currently? Tried on intel, ati and nvidia chipsets
[02:28] <neuralis> krstic@aeryn:~> glxinfo|grep irect|head -1
[02:28] <neuralis> direct rendering: Yes
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[02:29] <neuralis> nekohayo: that's intel 915gm
[02:29] <nekohayo> and you are fully up to date? hmm strange
[02:30] <nekohayo> I have that on a i915 (I think), a mobile radeon 9600 and a geforce 5200... so I thought it was xorg core or something
[02:31] <Lathiat> 5200 wont work unless you have binary dirvers
[02:31] <Lathiat> no idea if a 9600 will work with the open source drivers
[02:31] <Lathiat> i think it possibly should
[02:31] <Lathiat> and i thin kthe i915 should work
[02:31] <nekohayo> Lathiat: nvidia-glx counts as binary drivers?
[02:31] <Lathiat> nekohayo: yes
[02:32] <nekohayo> strange thing.
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[02:37] <nekohayo> would there be a way to reset _entirely_ anything graphics related to the ~defaults, like if I did a clean install, to check if that's a configuration problem?
[02:37] <nekohayo> my xorg.conf did not change at all, it all happened after some updates iirc
[02:38] <nekohayo> so I don't know if the problem is me, or the packages flight6++
[02:39] <nekohayo> hmm I'll go try something
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[03:35] <infinity> mdz: Can I get a UVF (and beta freeze) exception for fglrx, so we can get the new fglrx into beta and get it well-tested (It finally has support for the Radeon X1xxx series)
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[04:09] <jdong> infinity: you missed a few hours ago when kail, kmon, Burgwork, and I were talking about it :)
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[04:28] <neuralis> mako: i have a post in the sounder moderation queue, can you please let that through? thanks.
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[04:36] <bddebian> Heya folks
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[06:10] <jmg> BenC: ping
[06:14] <crimsun> as a note, it's past midnight in his timezone.
[06:16] <jmg> 00:15
[06:18] <bddebian> Bah, so :-)
[06:19] <fabbione> morning
[06:20] <bddebian> Hello fabbione
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[06:55] <hendry> is there someplace i can see the kdebase changelog on the Web? Can't figure out launchpad
[06:55] <hendry> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kdebase/+changelog
[06:55] <hendry> aha, but that's only the last one
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[07:00] <Chipzz> hendry: /usr/share/doc/package_name/changelog.Debian.gz
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[07:13] <bddebian> Gnight folks
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[07:13] <jmg> hi hunger
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[07:30] <pitti> Good morning
[07:30] <ajmitch> morning pitti 
[07:30] <ajmitch> how are you?
[07:32] <pitti> hey ajmitch!
[07:32] <pitti> great, and you?
[07:32] <ajmitch> good, thanks :)
[07:34] <Keybuk> morning berpitti
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[08:49] <Kamion> somebody please tell dholbach when he arrives that I've promoted tangerine-icon-theme and tango-icon-theme
[08:49] <fabbione> Kamion: thanks i will
[08:50] <Kamion> Keybuk: I've changed wpasupplicant to important priority now - if you want to move it into the minimal seed, that's fine
[08:51] <Keybuk> Kamion: ok.  do the debootstrap bits work now then?
[08:51] <Kamion> the priority change was the only thing needed
[08:51] <Keybuk> what blocked that?
[08:51] <Kamion> lp
[08:51] <Kamion> change-override-ng.py is there temporarily to allow doing priority changes
[08:52] <Keybuk> cool
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[08:53] <Kamion> can somebody please make sure to fix the brltty debconf prompting on desktop install today?
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[08:54] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm going to fix it.
[08:54] <Kamion> thanks
[08:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: once we have all the fixes we need in (brltty, at least, I'd like to get a small fix for casper in too), I'll roll cds and ask for testing.  Sounds good?
[08:56] <_ion> How about adding a menu item that runs dpkg-reconfigure gksudo xserver-xorg with a Gtk frontend to the default Gnome menu in Ubuntu?
[08:56] <fabbione> _ion: BAD IDEA
[08:56] <_ion> Whoops, s/(dpkg-reconfigure) (gksudo)/$2 $1/
[08:57] <fabbione> still bad idea
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[09:05] <infinity> Mithrandir: I have one initramfs upload I need to make before we go labelling things "beta" and having half the world upgrade and break things.
[09:05] <infinity> Mithrandir: I'll do that later tonight when I get back from dinner.
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[09:13] <Mithrandir> infinity: sure
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[09:31] <janimo> infinity, hi planning xubuntu livefs today?
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[09:39] <fabbione> Mithrandir: 
[09:39] <fabbione> xorg (7.0.0-0ubuntu29) dapper; urgency=low
[09:39] <fabbione>   * On fresh installs, if the display is not a lcd/lvds, there are not know
[09:39] <fabbione>     syncs frequencies for the monitor and the card is mga, do NOT write
[09:39] <fabbione>     SYNC_RANGES. It appears that mga can cope just fine parting vesa info too.
[09:39] <fabbione>     (Closes Ubuntu: #19098)
[09:39] <fabbione>   * Due to a very annoying DRI/DRM bug, make sure to use OldDmaInit when
[09:39] <fabbione>     writing down the Device section for mga driver. This will make DRI working
[09:39] <fabbione>     at least for AGP cards. PCI didn't work before and it will keep not
[09:39] <fabbione>     working since the option does explicitly disable DRI for PCI.
[09:39] <fabbione>     (Closes Ubuntu: #27442)
[09:41] <fabbione> they are 2 one liners basically
[09:41] <fabbione> they sound scary from the description :)
[09:42] <HiddenWolf> fabbione: tsk, pastebin. :)
[09:43] <fabbione> HiddenWolf: or i could use dapper-changes directly...
[09:44] <HiddenWolf> fabbione: that's so, well, efficient. :)
[09:44] <Mithrandir> fabbione: those only do something if the driver is mga, right?
[09:45] <fabbione> Mithrandir: yes
[09:45] <Mithrandir> fabbione: ok, upload away.
[09:45] <fabbione>           if [ "$DEVICE_DRIVER" != "mga" ] ; then
[09:45] <Mithrandir> fabbione: do you have any more urgent fixes we need to have or can we stop uploads soon?
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[09:45] <fabbione> if [ "$DEVICE_DRIVER" = "mga" ] ; then
[09:45] <fabbione> Mithrandir: not in my queue..
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[09:46] <fabbione> there are tons of bugs that need urgent fixes...
[09:46] <fabbione> these were trivial to get done
[09:46] <Mithrandir> well, which are blockers for beta.
[09:46] <fabbione> hi dholbach 
[09:46] <Mithrandir> dholbach: 08:49 < Kamion> somebody please tell dholbach when he arrives that I've promoted tangerine-icon-theme and tango-icon-theme
[09:46] <dholbach> hey fabbione
[09:46] <janimo> Mithrandir: packages not going on the ubuntu/kubuntu cd are ok though right?
[09:46] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i dunno.. i have 500 bugs on X.. pick one
[09:46] <dholbach> Mithrandir, Kamion: thanks a lot
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[09:47] <Mithrandir> janimo: well, you should probably freeze xubuntu too if you want to release at the same time as {k,}ubuntu.
[09:47] <dholbach> good morning everybody
[09:47] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I read that as "no". :-)
[09:47] <janimo> Mithrandir: yes, only small updates (docs etc)
[09:47] <fabbione> Mithrandir: how can you guess? :)
[09:49] <Mithrandir> fabbione: dude, if you don't have a bug which you can say "we NEED this for beta" then it's not urgent.
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[09:49] <fabbione> Mithrandir: you understood me the other way around...
[09:49] <fabbione> Mithrandir: the 500 bugs all need fixing before beta...
[09:49] <fabbione> Mithrandir: so pick one..
[09:50] <janimo> dholbach: do you know if seb should be around today?
[09:50] <dholbach> janimo: I think he should
[09:50] <mvo> Mithrandir: I have a upload with two icon updates pending ... I guess that is ok?
[09:50] <janimo> thanks
[09:50] <dholbach> janimo: what is it that you want with him? can I maybe assist you?
[09:50] <Mithrandir> mvo: just changing two icons?
[09:50] <dholbach> Mithrandir: i have ubuntu-artwork pending
[09:50] <janimo> dholbach: gdm upload for adding depends on xubntu artwork
[09:51] <dholbach> janimo: ah ok
[09:51] <janimo> otherwise it cannot install w/o network
[09:51] <janimo> there's a bug open in lp, and the fix is very simple
[09:51] <mvo> Mithrandir: yes
[09:51] <Mithrandir> dholbach: as in, ready to upload?
[09:51] <Mithrandir> mvo: upload away, then.
[09:51] <mvo> thanks
[09:52] <dholbach> Mithrandir: nearly, just some small tweaks - how much time do i have?
[09:52] <dholbach> ...tweaks missing...
[09:53] <Mithrandir> dholbach: please prioritise it high since I want to get cd building started.
[09:53] <dholbach> Mithrandir: right, working on it now
[09:54] <Mithrandir> and since LP needs two rounds from upload to published binary, a missed cron.daily means a lot of waiting.
[09:54] <dholbach> yeah
[09:54] <dholbach> i understand
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[10:20] <mdz> Kamion: there's a bug open about brltty; the newest brltty doesn't even have a .config script
[10:20] <mdz> Kamion: but it FTBFS
[10:20] <mdz> infinity: fglrx->prefer to wait until after beta, it'll still get tested when people upgrade
[10:20] <mdz> good morning
[10:22] <Keybuk> morning mdz
[10:22] <Keybuk> or, should we say, good late-evening?
[10:23] <mdz> you should say morning
[10:23] <mdz> I am in London
[10:24] <mdz> kicking it UTC+1 style for the beta release
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[10:26] <fabbione> morning mdz
[10:26] <Keybuk> ahh
[10:29] <Mithrandir> mdz: seems like we need to have flite1-dev promoted for it to build?
[10:30] <mdz> Mithrandir: that'd be the simplest solution
[10:31] <mdz> are the current dailies believed to be worthy of testing?
[10:32] <Mithrandir> they need a few fixes to go in, but should be beta-beta quality.
[10:32] <mdz> Mithrandir: do you know what the cause of the missing icons on the live CD is?
[10:32] <Mithrandir> mdz: not yet.
[10:33] <Mithrandir> I'm going to merge Riddell's branch first to see what he changed
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[10:39] <Mithrandir> mdz: Riddell broke it, it seems.
[10:40] <Mithrandir> Riddell: when you're uploading changes in a beta freeze, please do at least test your changes first.  There's no chance of your change ever having worked.
[10:41] <StevenK> w
[10:41] <StevenK> Oops.
[10:41] <mdz> Kamion: can we get a pre-release indicator on the iso9660 volume labels?
[10:42] <dholbach> Mithrandir: I'll upload ubuntu-artwork with new icons and backgrounds and gnome-session (which needed a one string change to benefit from the new icons)
[10:42] <Keybuk> mdz: Kamion's on holiday today
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[10:44] <mdz> Keybuk: oh, I saw messages from him in this channel this morning
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[10:46] <Keybuk> mdz: yeah, think he was just logging on over breakfast
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[10:52] <Mithrandir> mdz: I have a fix for the casper problem, I'm testing it now, so I might be able to make this dinstall.
[10:53] <Mithrandir> mdz: can you get flite1-dev promoted (unless you already have, in which case I suspect we just need a give-back of brltty on all arches)
[10:54] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: that udev upload was pre-approved
[10:54] <Keybuk> it's an urgent fix we needed for beta
[10:54] <mdz> (good idea to mention that in the changelog to avoid confusion)
[10:54] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: ok.
[10:55] <seb128> Mithrandir, mdz: should the patch from bug #34203 we delayed to after beta CD?
[10:55] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 34203 in gnome-vfs2 "smb access almost unusable slow in Dapper compared to Breezy" [Major,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34203
[10:55] <seb128> (debdiff attached to the bug)
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Mithrandir] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | LP upgraded, report issues on #launchpad | Beta freeze has begun, main uploads must be approved by mdz or Mithrandir
[10:56] <mdz> seb128: patch looks fairly safe, but the problem doesn't seem urgent for beta, do you disagree?
[10:56] <seb128> doko: could you stop reassigning random crack bugs to me without any comment of why you reassign? 
[10:57] <seb128> mdz: no, I don't disagree. I'm happy to delay it to after beta 
[10:57] <mdz> seb128: ok
[10:57] <Mithrandir> yeah, I agree with mdz; doesn't look urgent, but should absolutely be fixed.  And the debdiff looks harmless enough.
[10:57] <doko> seb128: ???
[10:58] <mdz> is pitti not around today?
[10:58] <pitti> mdz: I am
[10:58] <seb128> doko: that "<-" fontconfig bug I fixed, you keep assign a cupsys task to me, I neither work on cupsys neither has an idea on how it could be a cupsys bug
[10:58] <mdz> pitti: ah, good morning
[10:58] <seb128> s#neither#nor
[10:59] <pitti> mdz: hey hey, welcome to Europe :)
[10:59] <mdz> pitti: could you review flite for main, to unblock the brltty build?
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[10:59] <pitti> mdz: of course
[10:59] <mdz> thanks
[11:00] <Mithrandir> grr, why does bzr now shelve stuff in .shelve instead of .bzr/shelve or something?
[11:01] <dholbach> mdz: I'm sorry for the brltty mess - I'd be happier, if we'd roll back brltty or something for now. we'd have to rebuild gnopernicus with the new libbrlapi - that escaped my attention too :-/
[11:02] <Mithrandir> mdz: http://err.no/patches/casper_1.42_1.43.diff ; looks ok to upload?
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[11:04] <mvo> Ubugtu: bug 39659
[11:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39659 in ttf-dejavu "ttf-dejavu 2.5 test results" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39659
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[11:05] <buttfukc> does anyone here know what easy-ubuntu is
[11:06] <doko> seb128: I'm now looking at it, it's a bug report, having two tasks. did _you_ look at both when fixing it? maybe it's a bit less effort for you to look at the context, if you're working on the bug report anyway? 
[11:06] <seb128> doko: there is no cupsys bug afaik, I would just reject it
[11:06] <seb128> but you seem to disagree since you reassigned that specifically to me
[11:08] <buttfukc> ompaul: why did you say ubuntu is only used by nerds
[11:08] <doko> seb128: no, I don't disagree, I just wanted your input. so if your input is "reject", then please do it. there was no input from your side while closing the other task
[11:08] <ompaul> jdub, care to help our friend with the nice nic?
[11:09] <seb128> doko: yeah, I didn't notice the cupsys task when I closed it
[11:09] <buttfukc> no, paul, nobody can help you now
[11:09] <seb128> doko: my point was you could put a comment saying what you want when reassigning, like "should that task be closed" :)
[11:10] <pitti> mdz: could need some love in Debian and packging of new upstream version (which is more than a year old), but it looks sane enough; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportFlite
[11:10] <pitti> mdz: I'd like to defer functionality testing to heno
[11:11] <pitti> mdz: but I hope he tested it already
[11:11] <pitti> mdz: shall I put it into 'promoted' queue right away?
[11:12] <buttfukc> does ubuntu support .deb files ?
[11:13] <pitti> mdz: queue -> done
[11:13] <pitti> buttfukc: #ubuntu question (and yes, we *only* support .deb)
[11:13] <buttfukc> oh
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[11:15] <doko> seb128: ok, didn't know if you were complaining about the reassignment, just subscribing lets one miss things more easily (see 25998) ;-)
[11:15] <mdz> pitti: yes, thanks
[11:16] <buttfukc> i'm having trouble joining #ubuntu
[11:17] <BearPerson> might be the nick
[11:17] <seb128> doko: I read the subscribed mails too, but I've nothing to say on that openoffice bug by example. works fine for me atm (and I don't know if it didn't work fine since I don't use openoffice)
[11:17] <buttfukc> oh because it's not registered?
[11:17] <BearPerson> probably rather because it looks like a swearword
[11:18] <buttfukc> that wouldnt affect ability to join a channel though;
[11:18] <doko> seb128: then please say just that. it's far easier for you to check this and to start OOo once
[11:18] <BearPerson> you'd be surprised...
[11:19] <BearPerson> people being offended by it may place bans
[11:19] <buttfukc> they have freenode set up so nicks with cuss words in them can't join certain channels? is that a channel mode
[11:19] <seb128> doko: it's probably on my list of ~190 bugs I've to comment on (according to my unread mails list)
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[11:20] <buttfukc> bearperson: are you in every channel i'm in?
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[11:20] <BearPerson> no
[11:20] <dholbach> hi thom
[11:21] <thom> hey
[11:21] <pitti> hey thom, how are you?
[11:22] <thom> pitti: good thanks; how goes it? 
[11:22] <pitti> pretty well :)
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[11:33] <pitti> mdz: ffox 1.0.8 is out with 17 security fixes (no new features); I assume you don't oppose if we upgrade stables to it?
[11:34] <pitti> mdz: (of course I'll check that its reverse dependencies still work, or update them as well)
[11:34] <Mithrandir> pitti: since mdz appears to be afk, any chance you could look at http://err.no/patches/casper_1.42_1.43.diff and tell me whether it looks sane to you too?
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[11:35] <pitti> Mithrandir: +    mkdir -p /root/home/ubuntu/Desktop/ -> will the permissions be fixed later?
[11:37] <Mithrandir> pitti: gah, thanks.
[11:37] <pitti> Mithrandir: the usplash time out looks good for me; I'm just not sure how the first hunk works (i. e. which other .desktop files the * caught)
[11:38] <Mithrandir> pitti: none, since it'd need to be /root/[...] .
[11:38] <mdz> pitti: yes, that should be OK
[11:38] <pitti> Mithrandir: maybe you should generally use install -d and specify -u and -g
[11:38] <Mithrandir> pitti: just fixed it
[11:38] <Mithrandir> (reload)
[11:39] <pitti> ah :)
[11:40] <pitti> Mithrandir: so, I can't judge the replacement of the wildcard (espresso-*.desktop), but it looks good anyway
[11:40] <mdz> Mithrandir: looks fine
[11:40] <Mithrandir> pitti: it seems to work correctly for me with ubuntu at least.  From inspection, it looks correct for kubuntu too
[11:40] <Mithrandir> mdz: thanks
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[11:43] <seb128> I've a gnome-session patch fixing the descriptions labels (according to what has been described on the ubuntu-desktop list) and some graphical glitches (dialog changing when the labels use an extra line) ... should that be delayed to after beta too?
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[11:45] <Mithrandir> seb128: it's just visual glitches and such?
[11:45] <seb128> yeah
[11:45] <Mithrandir> I'd prefer to wait so we can get ISOs made.
[11:45] <seb128> dholbach wants to get a gnome-session uploaded before beta anyway
[11:46] <seb128> the artwork change broke one icon of the session dialog 
[11:46] <Mithrandir> grr, ok.
[11:46] <dholbach> thanks Mithrandir
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[11:46] <Mithrandir> do you have a debdiff available?
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[11:47] <dholbach> seb128: you want to upload yours and have the debdiff?
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[11:48] <seb128> Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/gnome-session.debdiff is the UI glitches fixing one
[11:48] <seb128> I'm happy to delay it to after beta though
[11:48] <seb128> the one from dholbach is that:
[11:48] <seb128> -+                                      "gnome-logout", 48, 0, NULL);
[11:48] <seb128> ++                                      "gnome-session-logout", 48, 0, NULL);
[11:48] <seb128> (changing icon name)
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[11:50] <Mithrandir> I'd prefer to hold the UI glitches one since it's not trivial.
[11:50] <Mithrandir> the icon name change is fine, though
[11:50] <buttfukc> ompaul likes it up the butt
[11:50] <seb128> let's delay the UI changes, that's not a complicated change but UI diff are not trivial to read
[11:50] <seb128> Mithrandir: ok, fine with me
[11:50] <seb128> dholbach: go with your upload so
[11:51] <Mithrandir> seb128: yeah, it doesn't help that it's a diff of a diff.
[11:51] <dholbach> Mithrandir: i changed it in the patch we have to gnome-session
[11:51] <dholbach> seb128, Mithrandir: thanks
[11:51] <seb128> np
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[11:53] <dholbach> go thom, go! :-)
[11:54] <thom> that was quite enough of that, i think
[11:54] <ogra> hey thom, nice to see you around ! :)
[11:55] <Mithrandir> does anybody else have any urgent uploads they need reviewed for beta?
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[11:57] <ogra> whats that openoffice mess in my cdimage report  ? is that solved ? 
[11:58] <ogra> (seems it affects ubuntu as well)
[11:58] <doko> what mess?
[11:59] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html
[11:59] <ogra> 22 uninstallables
[11:59] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/report.html
[11:59] <ogra> same for ubuntu
[11:59] <Mithrandir> ooo2 is called ooo now, isn't it?
[11:59] <fabbione> it should be only a leftover from the seeds
[11:59] <ogra> ah, ok, meta rebuild then
[11:59] <fabbione> since it's also on -server
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[12:01] <doko> ogra: these are transitional packages now
[12:01] <ogra> hmm, intresting, my seeds only show ooo2 in supported
[12:01] <ogra> should that even show up in that report ? 
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[12:02] <fabbione> thom: shuuush :)
[12:02] <ogra> heh
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[12:03] <thom> fabbione: too slow ;-)
[12:04] <fabbione> i am eating :)
[12:04] <dholbach> lame excuse :-p
[12:04] <fabbione> i really am :)
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[12:10] <Mithrandir> ogra,Riddell : I presume you want new livefs builds with the new casper too?
[12:10] <ogra> sure
[12:10] <Riddell> Mithrandir: yes please
[12:10] <Riddell> and appologies if I messed it up when I uploaded
[12:11] <Mithrandir> Riddell: you did, but I fixed it now and I needed to upload anyway.
[12:19] <mdz> dholbach: do you have the beta ubuntu-artwork?
[12:19] <dholbach> mdz: yeah, uploaded already
[12:20] <mdz> dholbach: ok, am not caught up on -changes yet...ETA for availability in dapper?
[12:21] <fabbione> Mithrandir: what time do we estimate the pre-beta iso's?
[12:21] <dholbach> it's "successfully built" according to LP already
[12:21] <dholbach> mdz: ^
[12:21] <fabbione> Mithrandir: and i am not AWTY you.. just planning the day around your activities to help testing
[12:23] <Mithrandir> fabbione: a couple of hours since casper hasn't built yet.
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[12:23] <fabbione> Mithrandir: ok thanks a lot.. i will be back in 4 and start testing.
[12:24] <fabbione> today we will see if my nuclear power plant can keep everything turned on, long enough to do a bunch test installs :)
[12:29] <dholbach> mdz: it's up
[12:29] <mdz> dholbach: just noticed :-)
[12:30] <dholbach> mdz: the gnome-session change, which will make the logout dialog look nice again will be built soon too
[12:31] <jmg> BenC: ping
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[12:32] <mdz> fabbione: I'm getting:
[12:32] <mdz> xserver-xorg postinst warning: not updating /etc/X11/X; file has been
[12:32] <mdz>    customized
[12:32] <mdz> presumably due to: cat: /var/lib/x11/X.md5sum: No such file or directory
[12:34] <mvo> doko: do you know about a problem with the python logging module and fork() ? it seems there is somthing funny going on with it 
[12:35] <mdz> mvo: did you see my comment on bug #28250?
[12:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28250 in update-manager "update-manager doesn't remember "automatically close when finished" checkbox state" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28250
[12:35] <doko> mvo: no
[12:36] <doko> mvo: please could you recheck with python2.5 (chinstrap:~doko/python2.5)
[12:36] <mvo> mdz: I'm behind my bug-mail currently (especially ui-bugs) but I can fix this one and remove the checkbox (at least when it is used as a embeded widget)
[12:36] <Mithrandir> pitti: did you promote flite1-dev or does mdz need to do that?
[12:37] <pitti> Mithrandir: mdz or Kamion, I only approve it
[12:37] <Mithrandir> pitti: ok.
[12:37] <pitti> Mithrandir: infinity or Keybuk should be able to as well
[12:38] <Mithrandir> pitti: thanks.
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[12:38] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: if you're around, could you promote flite1-dev?
[12:38] <Keybuk> yup
[12:39] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: mainified
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[12:39] <jmg> arrrg
[12:40] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: thanks
[12:40] <jmg> wtf
[12:40] <Keybuk> do you want libfilte1 promoted as well?
[12:41] <jmg> i cant find the bug i filed today
[12:41] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: preferably, given tha flite1-dev depends on it.
[12:41] <Mithrandir> that, even
[12:41] <Keybuk> :o)
[12:41] <Keybuk> ok, I think that should do it
[12:42] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: thanks again
[12:42] <Keybuk> I love how verbose this tool is
[12:43] <jmg> 39948 - any suggestions on how i can improve on that as a bug report?
[12:43] <jmg> provide a diff?
[12:43] <jmg> besides+
[12:44] <Keybuk> jmg: provide a changelog, etc.
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[12:44] <jmg> ok
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[12:45] <tseng> also worth a note "i tested this on dapper and it works for me"
[12:47] <jmg> tseng: it needs to carefully get merged i think
[12:48] <jmg> it works on etch
[12:48] <janimo> infinity: ping
[12:49] <jmg> makefiles are nasty as
[12:49] <jmg> we hates them
[12:49] <jmg> but ill see if i can cook up a patch
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[12:52] <janimo> seb128, bug 38551 would be good to have before beta, as it causes xubuntu-desktop uninstallable w/o net connection
[12:52] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 38551 in gdm "gdm should depends on xubuntu-artwork too" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/38551
[12:53] <jmg> how can i get a bug confirmed?
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[12:54] <ogra> jmg, you find someone else who sees it too and confirms it
[12:54] <jmg> ogra: ktnx
[12:54] <jmg> *goes to find hunger*
[12:54] <jmg> Hunger: ping :-)
[12:54] <seb128> Mithrandir: is that ok to upload a gdm with an | xubuntu-deafult-settings now ?
[12:55] <jmg> ogra: for a package like kernel-package, is it a good idea to try and go hacking it?
[12:55] <Mithrandir> seb128: xubuntu needs it for beta, don't they?
[12:55] <jmg> ogra: or do i leave it to the master?
[12:55] <seb128> Mithrandir: looks like
[12:55] <ogra> Mithrandir, yep
[12:55] <Mithrandir> seb128: can you have it done before the hour?
[12:55] <seb128> sure
[12:55] <Mithrandir> run, then.
[12:55] <mdz> mvo: does the string "Removed with config <package>" come from espresso or an underlying component?
[12:55] <janimo> Mithrandir, seb128 thanks both
[12:56] <ogra> i had the same prob with edubuntu, silly me didnt think about xubuntu when i talked to seb about it
[12:56] <ogra> jmg, no idea, ask in #ubuntu-kernel :)
[12:56] <mvo> mdz: from libapt/python-apt
[12:57] <janimo> jmg, that's not the kernel source package itself. btw what you want to modify?
[12:57] <jmg> wow
[12:57] <jmg> kubuntu.de really threw their toys out of the cot
[12:58] <jmg> janimo: read the bug report
[12:58] <seb128> Mithrandir, janimo: change uploaded
[12:58] <janimo> jmg, I'd have to guess the bugnumber first.
[12:58] <janimo> seb128: :)
[12:58] <jmg> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kernel-package/+bug/39948/+index
[12:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39948 in kernel-package "Please support Xen 3.0.2 by syncing to debian version 10.043+" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:59] <ogra> heh, thats rather a whishlist bug for dapper+1 :)
[01:00] <jmg> ogra: if you're saying it cant go into dapper then i'll hack it
[01:00] <jmg> :)
[01:00] <jmg> and make a diff for just the xen stuff
[01:00] <ogra> jmg, we're preparing dapper beta currently ...
[01:00] <jmg> ogra. i realise this...
[01:00] <ogra> feature freeze was weeks (months ?) ago
[01:00] <jmg> kernel-package, do you understand what this package does?
[01:00] <jmg> make-kpkg rules
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[01:00] <jmg> it won't hurt dapper release
[01:01] <doko> janimo: do you still want OOo on the xubuntu CD?
[01:01] <janimo> doko, if it fits (looks like) yes
[01:01] <ogra> haha
[01:01] <ogra> "if it fits"
[01:01] <janimo> right now I seeded Oo-o but did not bring much in
[01:01] <jmg> and if too paranoid then i will fork :)
[01:01] <gicmo> why the heck does ubuntu-minimal debend on wpasupplicant, this is a server, I sure dont need wlan on a server! :)
[01:01] <jmg> gicmo: you might
[01:01] <ogra> janimo, youre not seriously talking about iso size, do you ? 
[01:02] <jmg> gicmo: what if it is a wireless ap? :)
[01:02] <janimo> ogra, yes
[01:02] <ogra> heh
[01:02] <janimo> why? :)
[01:02] <ogra> :P
[01:02] <gicmo> jmg: ohh come on ;) you gotta be kidding me :)
[01:02] <janimo> currently at 445M
[01:02] <jmg> oh me mehereit!
[01:02] <ogra> i'm happy if i get more than one language on the CD :)
[01:02] <jmg> heh
[01:02] <janimo> besides some planned xubuntu apps it will have space for language-support stuff
[01:02] <gicmo> jmg: that's for sure not a good reason to have _ubutnu_minimal_ depend on it! :)
[01:03] <jmg> gicmo: oh
[01:03] <janimo> all top 10 lang-supports fit as they're around 130M
[01:03] <jmg> gicmo: i thought ubuntu-server
[01:03] <doko> janimo: please could you just unpack openoffice.org-gnome (dpkg -x <debfile> /) remove ucpgvfs1.uno.so and gnome-set-default-application, and see if you have any unresolved references in /usr/lib/openoffice/program ?
[01:03] <gicmo> and where the heck is sebbuild? Haven't seem in ages
[01:03] <janimo> maybe even OO
[01:03] <janimo> doko, I'll try.will ping you when done 
[01:03] <gicmo> jmg: I don't even see a ubuntu-server, just an edubuntu-server :)
[01:04] <doko> janimo: makes only sense, if you don't have any gnome libs installed
[01:04] <ogra> gicmo, ubuntu-server is planned for dapper+1
[01:04] <ogra> or something similar
[01:04] <janimo> will not have gnome libs installed by default.
[01:04] <gicmo> ogra: ahh k :)
[01:04] <jmg> well im all about dapper+1
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[01:04] <jmg> :p
[01:04] <jmg> but i still want to see xen make it into universe
[01:04] <janimo> doko, is the gtk integration of OOo tied with other gnome functionality?
[01:05] <ogra> jmg, and in dapper+1 youre all about dapper+1 ... its always the same with you bleeding edge guys :)
[01:05] <gicmo> anyway, I still don't see a point in ubuntu-minimal depending on wpasupplicant, I don't need it on the server and I dont want it on the server :)
[01:05] <jmg> then main for dapper+1
[01:05] <ogra> err
[01:05] <gicmo> ogra: bleeding edge is the way to go! :)
[01:05] <ogra> " dapper+1 youre all about dapper+2" indeed
[01:05] <seb128> gicmo: hi :)
[01:05] <gicmo> SEB128!!!!
[01:05] <seb128> ;)
[01:05] <gicmo> where have you been hiding!
[01:05] <jmg> ogra :P
[01:05] <gicmo> DUDE, I missed you already! :)
[01:06] <jmg> ogra: not my fault xen3 was too ghetto to get into ubuntu
[01:06] <gicmo> jmg: hahaha :)
[01:06] <ogra> jmg, not ours either that upstream didnt accept it earlier :P
[01:06] <jmg> xen3.0.2 is much better
[01:06] <jmg> ogra: there is a big problem upstream
[01:07] <jmg> ogra: xen2.0.6 packages are tough to impossible to upgrade
[01:07] <jmg> cleanly
[01:07] <ogra> and we bind ourselves to upstream :) thats why its not in at all yet 
[01:07] <jmg> ogra: which is why they created a xen3.0 in experimental
[01:08] <ogra> which we would have done as well if grumpy already existed ;)
[01:08] <jmg> ogra: but also some spat between pkg-kernel and pkg-xen team
[01:08] <jmg> ogra: up to krooger to resolve
[01:09] <mdz> mvo: can we change it?  it's not proper English
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[01:09] <Keybuk> gicmo: just because you don't need it, doesn't mean that others don't
[01:10] <mdz> mvo: "completely removed" would be better
[01:10] <Keybuk> wireless-tools is also in minimal, for example
[01:11] <janimo> doko, I have looked with ldd and those two you mention are the only ones with gnome deps
[01:11] <doko> janimo: I don't think that the UI is, but we some uno modules depending on gnome
[01:11] <janimo> there's gconfbe1.uno.so using gconf but
[01:11] <gicmo> Keybuk: sure, sounds logic, so because of that we could make ubuntu-minimal depend on apache, sendmail, gnome hmm and kde .. because only that we don't need that in minimal doesnt meen that other don't
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[01:11] <Keybuk> gicmo: you don't need sendmail to get internet access
[01:11] <janimo> gconf is already depped upon by gdm indirectly
[01:12] <doko> ok, so it should be safe to plit out a ooo-gtk package
[01:12] <Keybuk> gicmo: minimal is defined as the set of software needed to support the underlying hardware
[01:12] <doko> janimo: ok, so it should be safe to split out a ooo-gtk package, but keep gconfbe1.uno.so in -gtk
[01:13] <Keybuk> wpasupplicant is needed to get internet access (e.g. to install other packages) on wireless networks using WPA
[01:13] <gicmo> Keybuk: yeah but still, there is hardware for desktops and there is hardware for servers, ... and most server for sure don't need friggin wireless to get online
[01:13] <janimo> doko, great
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[01:13] <doko> janimo: but most likely not for the beta
[01:13] <mdz> mvo: likewise for 'preparing to remove with config'
[01:13] <janimo> sure, np
[01:13] <mvo> mdz: does this look ok http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12495 (spelling)?
[01:13] <Keybuk> gicmo: sure, but it's not like it's even a megabyte of disk space
[01:13] <Keybuk> it's not even run unless you have a wireless card and WPA configured
[01:14] <sabdfl> dholbach: *very* happy to see the new artwork package - thanks!
[01:14] <mdz> mvo: how about 'preparing to completely remove'
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[01:15] <gicmo> Keybuk: sure, but then again, I just don't like having packages installed that I will _never_ need on that box, it installs files on /etc and I want /etc be small and stuff you know :)
[01:15] <Keybuk> gicmo: we made a decision right at the start that we'd support networking (including wireless) in minimal
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[01:15] <mvo> mdz: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12496
[01:16] <Keybuk> if you don't want them, just uninstall them; you probably won't want any of the alternate filesystem support tools either
[01:16] <gicmo> Keybuk: ahh sure, well then I don't like that decision :)
[01:16] <sabdfl> dholbach: is there a way to automate the artwork cycle i.t.o. mapping what we get from the icon guys into a regular package update?
[01:16] <gicmo> Keybuk: hmm yeah, the problem then is, that I am will bug seb128 now an then about stuff broken because I dont get dependencies dragged into :)
[01:16] <jmg> sabdfl: hello!
[01:16] <Keybuk> if you're going to realllly try for a bare-bones system, you'd probably remove pcmciautils, reiser*progs, xfsprogs, jfsutils, etc.
[01:16] <sabdfl> hey jmg
[01:17] <Keybuk> minimal isn't bare-bones; it's the stuff you need installed if you want to complain something doesn't work
[01:17] <jmg> sabdfl: i have registered xenubuntu.com and .org
[01:17] <sabdfl> jmg: thanks! would you give those to elmo to administer?
[01:18] <Keybuk> if you want bare-bones, just install the Essential stuff :)  [defined as deps of dpkg] 
[01:18] <jmg> sabdfl: can i transfer them?
[01:18] <jmg> sabdfl: i have an idea for a xenubuntu project, can i talk to you about it?
[01:18] <sabdfl> jmg: sure
[01:19] <jmg> sabdfl: have been dealing with malc but he went quiet
[01:19] <gicmo> Keybuk: well xfsprogs not really, because I am using xfs as the filesystem :)
[01:19] <jmg> sabdfl: pm? email?
[01:20] <mdz> doko: did you fix the oo.o2 stuff in ship already?
[01:21] <gicmo> Keybuk: anyway, thanks for the explanation
[01:21] <mdz> mvo: much better
[01:23] <doko> mdz: hmm, what has to be fixed?
[01:24] <Mithrandir> seb128: I presume it's not a problem if ubuntu gets the old gdm?  I'd like to get going soonish rather than having to wait for a full hour.
[01:25] <pitti> mdz: JFYI, libbeagle is on the CD; also I'd like to do the ffox upgrade as first priority now and defer the beagle update (unless you object)
[01:25] <mvo> mdz: I'm preparing a new upload now (apt with the wording fix)
[01:26] <Riddell> Kamion: ping
[01:26] <doko> mdz: just looked, this should be dependency packages only
[01:27] <Mithrandir> Riddell: Kamion is on vacation today.
[01:27] <Riddell> right, thanks
[01:27] <mvo> Mithrandir: ok to upload apt with the wording change http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12496?
[01:27] <Mithrandir> mvo: can it wait until after beta?
[01:28] <Mithrandir> mvo: I agree the wording is a big improvement, but this hardly seems like a blocker?
[01:28] <mvo> *shrug* it a wording change, it's not exactly a show-stopper
[01:28] <Mithrandir> mvo: I'd prefer if you could hold it off then, so I could get images built soon
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[01:28] <mvo> ok
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[01:29] <Riddell> Mithrandir, mdz: can I upload espresso to fix malone 39666?  stops crashes when using KDE frontend and non-ascii language
[01:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39666 in espresso "KDE frontend crashes at page 5 (?)" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39666
[01:30] <fabbione> mdz: is that on install or update?
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[01:31] <Mithrandir> Riddell: looking
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[01:31] <mdz> doko: something is wrong with the font changes that you made
[01:31] <mdz> doko: the fonts in firefox are much less readable
[01:32] <mdz> doko: sabdfl has commented on this as well
[01:33] <mdz> pitti: no objection to delaying the beagle update
[01:33] <mdz> mvo: thanks
[01:33] <mvo> mdz: cheers, I'll upload right after the beta 
[01:33] <Mithrandir> mdz: font issue, is that a blocker?  (I'm not aware what the issue is)
[01:33] <doko> mdz: I wouldn't say "wrong". does this persist, when you forbid firefox to use fonts requested from the web page?
[01:34] <mdz> doko: I would say "wrong"; the quality is quite clearly worse after the upgrade than before
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[01:34] <mdz> doko: changing it to ignore the page's fonts improves things, yes
[01:34] <mdz> doko: but that is not our default, and I don't think it should be either
[01:36] <mdz> Diziet: do you have some insight here?
[01:37] <doko> mdz: so we have to decide if ship with a default font that makes document print wrong. I cannot see an alternative at the moment, I asked Diziet if he could overwrite the font selection for firefox. 
[01:37] <mdz> doko: if the fonts that we use to match fonts specified by web pages are bad, then we should match them to different fonts
[01:37] <jordi> Kamion: hmm, manpages written in UTF-8, what do you need to make them read correctly with man?
[01:37] <jordi> Kamion: should Spanish manpages be in latin1 instead?
[01:38] <Treenaks> *shudder*?
[01:38] <doko> mdz: we don't have a free font, whith the same metrics, which displays as well as DejaVu/Bistream Vera.
[01:38] <mdz> doko: here's an example of a page which looks ugly by default: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12496
[01:38] <fabbione> mdz: in any case /etc/X11/X shouldn't be a blocker since it's a symlink to /usr/bin/Xorg
[01:39] <doko> mdz: you mean the Serif font?
[01:40] <mdz> doko: both
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[01:40] <mdz> but yes, the serif one is worse
[01:40] <mdz> fabbione: no, not a blocker, but a bug
[01:41] <mdz> doko: why should this situation be any different than in warty/hoary/breezy?  did the font metrics change?
[01:41] <fabbione> mdz: please file a bug and tell me if it was on install or upgrade
[01:42] <mdz> fabbione: on upgrade, though surely the problem was not new with the most recent upgrade
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[01:43] <Mithrandir> Riddell: sorry, I got distracted.
[01:43] <mdz> fabbione: I think the whole md5sum mechanism is overcomplicated; all we need to do is readlink and compare to the default value
[01:43] <mdz> Mithrandir: not a blocker for beta, no
[01:43] <Mithrandir> Riddell: ok, upload away.
[01:43] <Mithrandir> infinity: around, and any chance you could drive LP by hand for me?
[01:43] <fabbione> mdz: it is overcomplicated for Ubuntu. it's not when/if we will add more xservers to the default
[01:44] <fabbione> mdz: but mostlikely some bits did break because nobody updated them
[01:44] <fabbione> mdz: and there are tools now that can do that for us.. like ucf
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[01:44] <mdz> fabbione: this has broken for me in many situations over the past releases; usually it is harmless because it leaves the symlink alone in the ned
[01:44] <mdz> but it always prints errors
[01:45] <seb128> Mithrandir: yeah, no problem at all for Ubuntu with previous gdm :)
[01:45] <Riddell> Mithrandir: thanks
[01:45] <fabbione> mdz: ok i will look at it after Beta.
[01:45] <fabbione> mdz: i will need to check how the code did change and why
[01:46] <fabbione> even if the fix seems trivial we don't want to end up during really bad things
[01:46] <janimo> Mithrandir: are you doing cd builds by hand now, outside what is done by cron.daily?
[01:46] <fabbione> like leaving a system without /etc/X11/X
[01:46] <Mithrandir> janimo: yes.
[01:46] <janimo> is the latter still going till Thu?
[01:47] <Mithrandir> janimo: I'm going to turn off cron.daily
[01:47] <janimo> uh, ok.
[01:47] <Mithrandir> janimo: how so?
[01:47] <janimo> just did not know, nothing important :)
[01:48] <janimo> I thought we rely on corn.daily+extra caution only 
[01:48] <Mithrandir> janimo: nah, we want to make sure the images themselves are good.
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[01:50] <janimo> Mithrandir: ok, then I hold off anything else for xubuntu. only the gdm upload is important, and slightly less the addition of tango in my upload a few minutes ago
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[01:50] <janimo> unless something else if found by testers. So new images also for xubuntu today? I'd like to ask on xubu-devel for testers if so
[01:50] <doko> mdz: we have a new default font with different metrics (DejaVu). I'm looking at breezy, if I can reproduce the "wrong" look with DejaVu
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[01:52] <Mithrandir> janimo: just tell me when you want me to build the images.
[01:52] <janimo> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
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[02:11] <doko> mdz: in breezy, evince did select the Times/Helvetica fonts by itself, without any fontconfig interaction (?). Apparently in dapper it does consult fontconfig and chooses the metric-incompatible fonts. seb128, any hint?
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[02:27] <bddebian> Morning
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[02:44] <doko> mdz, seb128: in breezy, poppler didn't consult fontconfig, but had it's own mechanism to get a correct replacement for the Adobe fonts. that's the reason why PDF's are correctly displayed. breezy's version of fontconfig didn't define the aliases for the Adobe fonts.
[02:47] <seb128> doko: poppler was not using fontconfig before
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[02:48] <seb128> doko: what PDF is not correctly displayed now?
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[02:51] <mdz> fabbione: I'm not sure we should change it for dapper, but it is a source of bugs currently
[02:52] <stub> Launchpad will be going down in 15 minutes for a regular code update. Estimated downtime is 10 minutes. Wikis will be in read only mode during this period.
[02:53] <mdz> stub: that's fairly short notice considering that we're preparing a release at the moment
[02:53] <doko> seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/svn-book.pdf if you comment out the aliases (Adobe -> Nimbus) in fonts.conf
[02:53] <stub> mdz: I can delay if you want. I thought a 10 minute downtime window would be fine.
[02:53] <Mithrandir> ok, ubuntu live and install cds up.
[02:53] <Mithrandir> please test them, they might be the beta ISOs
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[02:55] <ogra> Mithrandir, hah, dreams ...
[02:55] <ogra> that would be the first milestone without a rebuild :)
[02:55] <Mithrandir> ogra: _might_. :-)
=== pitti jigdos and rsyncs
[02:55] <Mithrandir> ogra: You want live fs-es and cds too?
[02:56] <ogra> damn, i'm still rsyncing last nights builds ...
[02:56] <ogra> Mithrandir, let me get up to date first
[02:56] <infinity> Mithrandir: I'm around now.  Still need driving, or too late?
[02:56] <Mithrandir> I can start the livefs builds.
[02:56] <ogra> yep
[02:56] <infinity> janimo: xubuntu livefs is happening as we speak.
[02:56] <Mithrandir> infinity: I think the new espresso has trickled through now anyway, but thanks.
[02:56] <ogra> evenn the isos, i'm done with live rsyncing
[02:57] <janimo> infinity: thanks!
[02:57] <pitti> Mithrandir: 0.99.51?
[02:58] <mdz> stub: now is better than later
[02:58] <mdz> stub: we've just finished a build cycle, so we can do without upload for a bit while we test this build
[02:58] <Mithrandir> Riddell: did you get around to uploading the new espresso?
[02:58] <stub> ok.
[02:59] <sivang> re all
[03:02] <mdz> stub: in the future, please plan for more conservative process during release weeks
[03:02] <stub> mdz: Will do.
[03:03] <Mithrandir> usplash and casper seems happier now  (as in, usplash till the end)
[03:04] <mdz> Mithrandir: oh, good
[03:04] <mdz> Mithrandir: on the espresso reboot as well?
[03:04] <Mithrandir> mdz: unsure, since I'm just booting the CD.
[03:04] <Mithrandir> the new artwork looks nice.  Clean, sharp.
[03:05] <Riddell> Mithrandir: no, doing that now
[03:05] <mdz> oh, different problem then
[03:05] <mdz> I've seen some weirdness when rebooting from casper
[03:05] <mdz> usplash not coming up at all, or hanging in sendsigs
[03:05] <Mithrandir> mdz: no, usplash used to quit about at the same time as "adding live cd user" due to udev changing the usplash timeout.
[03:05] <mdz> right, that was fixed in the previous build already
[03:06] <mdz> or else this machine is fast enough that it didn't happen
[03:06] <Mithrandir> it wasn't.
[03:06] <ogra> so do we have new usplash artwork already ? 
[03:06] <infinity> dholbach: You're aware that the brltty you had synced from Debian has build-deps in universe, right?
[03:06] <Mithrandir> casper (1.44) dapper; urgency=low
[03:06] <Mithrandir>   * Reset the timeout after casper-premount has run so we're sure that the
[03:06] <Mithrandir>     timeout is what we want it to be.  Udev seems to change it too.
=== ogra still didnt hear *anything* about artwork)
[03:06] <Mithrandir> infinity: those have been promoted already.
[03:07] <mdz> infinity: bug #39332
[03:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39332 in brltty "brltty needs to install non-interactively" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39332
[03:07] <infinity> Mithrandir: Oh, as in, in the last cycle?
[03:07] <Mithrandir> infinity: so if you could give-back brltty on all arches, that'd be nice.
[03:07] <infinity> Mithrandir: It's dep-wait, no giving back required.
[03:07] <mdz> infinity: (once launchpad is back up, that is)
[03:07] <Mithrandir> infinity: as in, an hour or two ago, yes.
[03:07] <Mithrandir> infinity: 'k
[03:07] <Mithrandir> hmm
[03:07] <Mithrandir> but that means the live cd is useless since brltty still needs fixing on it.
[03:07] <Mithrandir> argh.
[03:08] <Mithrandir> ogra: seems you were right.
[03:08] <janimo> infinity: AIUI livefs != livecd. is the latter to be expected on cdimage only after I ask, assuming cron no longer builds CDs till beta?
[03:08] <ogra> Mithrandir, it would have been a miracle if we could go right away :)
[03:08] <infinity> janimo: livecd images will happen after livefs.  Once I'm sure the one works, I'll wrangle the other.
[03:09] <Mithrandir> infinity: can you please stop cronned livefs builds?  (We do usually stop them, don't we?)
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[03:09] <infinity> Mithrandir: We usually do, yes, I'll turn them off right now.
[03:09] <Mithrandir> thanks
[03:10] <infinity> Done.
=== infinity goes back to fiddling with Xubuntu.
[03:11] <infinity> Scream if you need anything.
[03:11] <ogra> anything ? 
[03:12] <infinity> Within reason, realising that it's 11pm here. :)
[03:12] <ogra> :)
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[03:13] <mdz> ogra: espresso seems to have the same problem that hwdb-client had where you need to move off of the Forward button and then back onto it before it is clickable
[03:13] <mdz> ogra: did you ever find a fix for that?
[03:13] <ogra> its a gtk bug (really)
[03:14] <infinity> gtk, or pygtk?
[03:14] <mdz> and did you find a fix for it?
[03:14] <ogra> and no, i didnt
[03:14] <mdz> what's the bug # in malone?
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[03:14] <ogra> infinity, given that synaptic had this bug even before ubuntu existed, its gtk, not pygtk
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[03:15] <ogra> mdz, bug 14669 i think
[03:15] <janimo> ogra, a similar bug was in xfce logout dialog but that fiddled with xlib too
=== mvo seaches for the upstream bugreport
[03:16] <ogra> ah, duplicate of bug 22930
[03:16] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 22930 in gtk "Mouse focus doesn't return until mouse is moved off button" [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/22930
[03:16] <jmg> i rejected my own bug :)
[03:17] <KaiL> some more orange for gdm would be cool ;p
[03:17] <jmg> hax0r!
[03:17] <KaiL> ...and nice new icons!
[03:18] <shackan_> uh, I've observe 22930 myself often, I got so used to it I just consider a minor annoyance and not a bug anymore :)
[03:18] <shackan_> *observed, even
[03:19] <jmg> shackan_: confirm the bug then
[03:20] <mvo> the upstream log looks like it may well take a bit until we see a fix
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[03:28] <giftnudel> this is a nice bug btw, 12 duplicates ...
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[03:33] <mdz> hmm, just did an i386 espresso install, and it doesn't reboot when I click restart in espresso (still) :-/
[03:36] <mvo> I had a similar problem, it hangs on powernowd apparently
[03:36] <mdz> I was just rebooting to try to debug
[03:36] <mdz> mvo: in my case it doesn't even shut down X yet, so I don't see how powernowd could be at fault?
[03:37] <mvo> oh, I saw the boot-down splash, but then it stopped
[03:37] <Mithrandir> mvo: did it eject the cd first?
[03:37] <mdz> I've seen it hang at sendsigs (sending TERM) there
[03:37] <mdz> but not powernowd
[03:38] <ogra> why does it shut down at all ? 
[03:38] <mvo> Mithrandir: don't know, let me check again
[03:39] <ogra> wouldnt forcing a poweroff/reboot immediately suffice ? its a liveCD
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[03:39] <infinity> Is soyuz actually in upload approval mode, or are we all just on our best behaviour currently?
[03:39] <Mithrandir> infinity: best behaviour.
[03:39] <infinity> Check.
[03:43] <fabbione> mdz: i am not going to change it for dapper, but at least fix the upgrade path from breezy and make that error more quite
[03:48] <mdz> mvo: I've noticed that espresso doesn't seem to display a progress message when it starts to remove a package, only when it finishes removing one
[03:48] <mdz> mvo: can that be changed easily?
[03:48] <mdz> mvo: it hangs a long time saying that it has installed user-setup, when what it is doing is removing a language pack
[03:49] <Mithrandir> mdz: for me it seems to just not reboot
[03:50] <mvo> mdz: hm, it should give a message when it starts removing, let me check
[03:51] <Mithrandir> seems to start shutting down by doing C-A-Backspace, though
[03:51] <mvo> Mithrandir: the cd is ejected, then nothing happens anymore (the splash is at ~70% down), pressing enter seems to make it reboot though 
[03:51] <Mithrandir> mvo: that's a known usplash bug, then.
[03:51] <mdz> Mithrandir: same here
[03:51] <mvo> IIRC this was a known problem so I may be making noise
[03:52] <mdz> Mithrandir: the problem is with gnome-session-save
[03:52] <mdz> (my problem is, anyway)
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[03:52] <mdz> it's correctly using gdm-signal to set the logout action, but then gnome-session-save --kill fails
[03:52] <mdz> Authentication rejected,could not connect to the session manager
[03:52] <Mithrandir> probably because it's running as root.
[03:53] <infinity> Mithrandir: Should we shove the usplash/init fixes in for beta, or just leave it?
[03:53] <mdz> easily reproduced by gksudo "gnome-session-save --kill --silent"
[03:53] <Mithrandir> infinity: the press enter thing?
[03:53] <infinity> Mithrandir: I can probably whip it all up and fix it after I've slept, assuming tonight's test rounds aren't the last.
[03:53] <bddebian> infinity!!! :-)
[03:53] <Mithrandir> infinity: they won't be.  I think we'll have a long day tomorrow if we're going to make Thursday.
[03:54] <infinity> Mithrandir: The "usplash gets killed by init" thing, and any other issues you have (still have breakage due to being on vc8 too?)
[03:54] <infinity> Mithrandir: Right, well if today's aren't likely to be the final candidates, I'll try to pop some obvious fixes in tomorrow for usability stuff like this.
[03:55] <mvo> mdz: it may not be easy to change the progress reporting on removal. it seems like the problem is simply that dpkg reads its database and that this takes the time. I have a idea for a fix, but I'm not sure if it will work reliable (testing it now)
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[03:55] <Mithrandir> infinity: if the fix for "init kills usplash too early" is easy, I'd love to have that fix in.
[03:56] <infinity> Mithrandir: It should be simple enough.  I'll attack it in the morning with a fresh brain.
[03:56] <mdz> mvo: no, dpkg is definitely already running the maintainer scripts
[03:56] <Mithrandir> infinity: thanks.
[03:57] <infinity> janimo: How's your bandwidth?
[03:57] <janimo> 60kbytes/s
=== Mithrandir twiddles thumbs while bzr merge runs.  Or crawls.  Or something.
[03:58] <mdz> seb128: can you help with this gnome-session-save problem?
[03:58] <seb128> mdz: what is the issue?
[03:58] <infinity> janimo: Oh.  So if I spin a Xubuntu livecd for you to test, it'll take a while for you to grab it and give me feedback?
[03:58] <janimo> infinity: yes, at least 4-5 hours
[03:58] <infinity> janimo: Oh well, I'll do so anyway.  Which arch do you test on?
[03:58] <mdz> seb128: the problem is that espresso needs to do g-s-s --kill, but it's running as root, not the user
[03:58] <janimo> infinity: I can ask in the xubuntu channel though
[03:58] <mvo> mdz: this couldn't be a issue of apt invoking dpkg multiple times with different arguments? so that it has to re-read the database?
[03:58] <janimo> I test in i386
[03:58] <infinity> janimo: You can give me feedback overnight, and when I wake up, if it'll all good, we'll spin for all arches.
[03:58] <mdz> seb128: so it gets "authentication Rejected", etc.
[03:59] <janimo> infinity: ok
[03:59] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'd call that blocker.  Agreed?
[03:59] <mdz> mvo: run tail -f /var/log/installer/espresso
[03:59] <mdz> Mithrandir: yes
[03:59] <Mithrandir> "a blocker", even.
[03:59] <mdz> we can always roll back to the old behaviour, which I think just ran reboot
[03:59] <lamont> mvo: is it possible that update-manager isn't tied into nss completely?  (it doesn't like my password, but passwords come from ldap, and the one in /etc/shadow is probably diff than ldap...)
[03:59] <mdz> that g-s-s stuff is new
[03:59] <mdz> I don't see how it possibly could have worked for colin
[03:59] <seb128> mdz: is that possible to call it with su $USER ?
[04:00] <mvo> lamont: that would be a gksu problem, can you check if gksu/gksudo works for you?
[04:00] <Gloubiboulga> infinity, janimo, I'd be happy to test the live cd (20 minutes to DL the iso)
[04:00] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: great!
[04:00] <mdz> seb128: would that fix it?  or is the environment the problem?
[04:00] <infinity> Gloubiboulga: Spiffy.  I'll ping you in an hour or two when my backlog of "livecd and buildd stuff" is sorted and an ISO exists.
[04:00] <mdz> seb128: ok, found a workaround
[04:01] <Gloubiboulga> infinity, ok
[04:01] <mdz> Mithrandir: we can do 'sudo -u ubuntu -H gnome-session-save ...'
[04:01] <mdz> or perhaps just fix HOME in the call
[04:01] <lamont> mvo: works
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[04:01] <lamont> update-manager_0.42.2ubuntu12
[04:01] <mvo> lamont: thats strange because update-manager just uses gksu for it's authentication
[04:01] <Mithrandir> mdz: su - $SUDO_USER -c gnome-session-save ?
[04:01] <seb128> mdz: hum, running "sudo gnome-session-save --kill" works fine on a betaCD candidate on my laptop
[04:02] <Mithrandir> hm, no, that'll nuke DISPLAY
[04:02] <mdz> Mithrandir: I tested it with sudo -H and it works
[04:02] <lamont> mvo: it's also possible that I consistantly screw up the password when prompted...
[04:02] <mdz> seb128: really?
[04:02] <lamont> I'll look at it more
[04:02] <seb128> yeah, I've just tried
[04:02] <mdz> seb128: I did "gksudo gnome-session-save --kill" and that failed
[04:03] <mdz> seb128: this was after running espresso, though I don't see why that would change things
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[04:03] <seb128> mdz: hum right, gksudo breaks it
[04:03] <seb128> sudo doesn't
[04:03] <mdz> interesting
[04:04] <seb128> gksudo probably does some magic, like setting environment variable ... mvo?
[04:04] <Mithrandir> gksudo nukes env variables unless you pass -k
[04:05] <slomo_> Mithrandir: what must be given for a main upload exception now? :) i have a small patch for avahi that only changes a binary package from universe
[04:05] <mdz> gksudo "env HOME=$HOME gnome-session-save --kill" works
[04:05] <Mithrandir> slomo_: is it urgent to get it into beta?
[04:05] <seb128> gksudo -k "..." works fine
[04:05] <mdz> seb128: running all of espresso under -k could break other things, though
[04:06] <slomo_> Mithrandir: no... just fixes a segfault in a universe package that affects only people on SMP... ok, so i put the first thing into my pending uploads queue :)
[04:06] <Mithrandir> slomo_: thanks.
[04:06] <Mithrandir> mdz: just adjusting espresso/frontend/gtkui.do:do_reboot should fix it.
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=== ogra still doesnt get why we need the shutdown procedure at all ... wouldnt /sbin/reboot -f speed things up and override all the problems ? 
[04:09] <thom> ogra: i'd be pissed if you did that after i've mounted external filesystems ;-)
[04:09] <mdz> Mithrandir: yes
[04:09] <tseng> thom: woo!
[04:09] <mdz> tricky to get the home dir right without hardcoding a bunch of stuff though
[04:09] <ogra> thom, still, its a live CD and i guess you get a question if you want to reboot now
[04:09] <Mithrandir> ogra: no, you don't.
[04:09] <thom> tseng: dude!
[04:09] <ogra> Mithrandir, oh
[04:10] <mdz> using sudo -H is probably easiest
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[04:11] <mdz> testing that fix now
[04:13] <Mithrandir> mdz: can you upload a fix with that if it fixes it?
[04:13] <mdz> Mithrandir: espresso does in fact display a confirmation dialog for the reboot
[04:13] <mdz> with a cancel option
[04:13] <mdz> Mithrandir: and yes, I will
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[04:15] <Mithrandir> thanks.  I need to go to the shop and find my brother a birthday present now.
[04:15] <mdz> Mithrandir: who else can turn the CD cranks?
[04:15] <Mithrandir> mdz: infinity, ogra, Riddell.
[04:16] <mdz> (infinity is asleep)
[04:16] <Mithrandir> mdz: anyway, if you upload before 1500, it'll be published by 1530, then binaries built and published by 1630.
[04:16] <mdz> I have privileges to do it, but I'm out of practice
[04:16] <ogra> then we cant do livefs 
[04:16] <mvo> mdz: I can reproduce the problem with the removal now, working on it now
[04:16] <Mithrandir> I'll be back before then and can start a livefs and iso build then
[04:17] <mdz> mvo: thanks
=== pitti spanks nautilus for crashing on copying > 4GB files
[04:22] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: how much faster would you say the LiveCD boots compared to the breezy LiveCD (percentage wise)?
[04:23] <BenC> will it affect the beta if I do a kernel upload within the next hour?
[04:24] <seb128> pitti: it does that? DOH
[04:25] <pitti> seb128: just did for me when I copied a DVD image
[04:26] <mvo> BenC: I'm note sure that this is a good time for a kernel upload (talk to Mithrandir first)
[04:26] <Keybuk> mdz: biff
[04:26] <BenC> Mithrandir: ping
[04:26] <pitti> seb128: the copy is 4294967295 bytes (0xFFFFFFFF) and nautilus crashed at that point
[04:27] <seb128> pitti: what source type? local file for both?
[04:27] <pitti> seb128: yes
[04:27] <seb128> we are discussing a 2Go limitation on ftp atm on #ubuntu-bugs but you are not on the chan
[04:27] <seb128> could be nice to have distro team people on that chan sometime :p
[04:27] <seb128> (hint hint :p)
[04:28] <pitti> I *am* in that channel
[04:28] <pitti> (well, for 3 seconds *cough*) :)
[04:28] <seb128> hehe
[04:28] <ogra> seb128, i had a similar support recently on the -users ML where i thought it was related to the user using userspace nfs, but switching to nfs-kernel-server didnt solve it
[04:29] <fabbione> BenC: even if you upload now, it won't be propagated to the installer, but it's probably better to wait for Mithrandir anyway.
[04:29] <fabbione> BenC: does it involve an ABI bump
[04:29] <fabbione> ?
[04:29] <BenC> unfortunuately
[04:29] <mvo> why does the espresso progress window likes to jump to the middle of the screen every few seconds?
[04:30] <fabbione> BenC: i am afraid it's post Beta
[04:30] <BenC> ran into a couple of snags during my builds last night, so I didn't get it done like I wanted to
[04:30] <fabbione> it takes too long to propagate an ABI bump
[04:31] <infinity> BenC: An ABI bump COULD be hand-massaged through if we had to, but it's probably better to just wait, and do a nice fat upload right after beta.
[04:31] <infinity> BenC: mdz's already asked me to hold off on an fglrx update until post-beta, so.. :)
[04:32] <BenC> no problem
=== fabbione goes and check the changelog
[04:35] <infinity> Gloubiboulga: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
[04:35] <infinity> janimo: ^^^^
[04:36] <janimo> infinity, just seen it :)
[04:36] <Gloubiboulga> infinity, downloading :)
[04:36] <janimo> 367M ?that's so small
[04:36] <infinity> If one of you can let me know if that even does simple things, like, uhh, boot, then I'll go ahead and do the other arches.
[04:36] <bddebian> Wow, everyone is here today :-)
[04:36] <janimo> what's missing wrt install.iso?
[04:36] <infinity> janimo: I assume your desktop and live metapackages are a lot smaller than ubuntu's.
[04:37] <janimo> infinity: xubuntu-install.iso is 435M
[04:37] <janimo> is live generally 70 M less?
[04:37] <infinity> janimo: install includes the "ship" seed, live includes the "live" seed (but not ship).  They don't really need to be anywhere near the same size.
[04:37] <infinity> janimo: They're your seeds, not mine, so I dunno. :)
[04:38] <janimo> infinity: ok thanks :)
[04:38] <infinity> janimo: Anyhow, keep in mind that everything on the livecd is installed, so don't bloat it out just for the sake of filling the CD.  If your CDs are small because your desktop (with all the useful apps you want) is smaller, then just do the dance of "I have smaller CDs than you, nyah, nyah"
[04:39] <infinity> janimo: And start seeding lots of langpacks. :)
[04:39] <janimo> infinity: yes, I'll put lots of langpacks, so maybe no OOo for the livecd then
[04:40] <seb128> hum
[04:40] <janimo> so startup time of livecd is proportional with size of packages on it?
[04:40] <infinity> janimo: Well, no.  Apps that aren't running obviously won't hurt you.
[04:40] <seb128> fresh install loops on "brltty[3003] : Not a serial device: /dev/ttyS0"
[04:40] <infinity> janimo: But adding more bling to your user's session and the like would be silly, if you're aiming for "fast and light"
[04:40] <janimo> infinity: you mean espresso install everything that's on livecd?
[04:40] <seb128> like it's ~10% time it too me to notice and type that
[04:41] <seb128> oh
[04:41] <janimo> in that case no OOo for sure, only in the ship seed
[04:41] <infinity> janimo: No, espresso is more clever than that.  It installs everything that isn't pulled in by live.
[04:41] <seb128> no, that's disk being checked due to mount count it seems
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[04:41] <seb128> but there is that label with the % displayed every few sec
[04:42] <infinity> janimo: I do livefs builds in two passes.  I install minimal/base/desktop, then I do a manifest.  Then I install live and casper, and build another manifest.  Casper diffs those, and uninstalls everything that was pulled in by the second set.
[04:42] <infinity> janimo: In theory, a d-i installation and a capser installation should be close to identical, if you go with defaults for both, thanks to that crazy hack.
=== CarlK [n=carl@c-67-163-39-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[04:44] <janimo> infinity: thanks for the details. ok let's see if it boots then and see later what else we put on it :)
[04:46] <giftnudel> How many CDs do you burn that will then be thrown away?
[04:46] <ogra> none
[04:46] <ogra> you know the media with RW in its name ? ;)
[04:46] <pitti> giftnudel: CD-RW, dude :)
[04:47] <giftnudel> well, probably better in this case ;)
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[04:48] <giftnudel> everytime I read that, I was wondering ... now I know the mystery
[04:49] <pitti> eek blank screen on ppc/install on first boot
[04:49] <seb128> dholbach: my new fresh dapper beta CD install use GNOME as icon theme
[04:50] <dholbach> seb128: oh :-(
[04:51] <seb128> mvo: the language selector lists no language
[04:52] <mvo> seb128: please run apt-get update 
[04:52] <seb128> as a non-power use I'm stuck with english strings all over the place :/
[04:52] <seb128> mvo: as a non-power use I'm not supposed to run a command line after installing my dapper :p
[04:53] <seb128> (just pointing the issue I have as a normal user with the candidate install)
[04:53] <mvo> seb128: sure, but my theory is that for some reason during the install no apt-get update was run inside the chroot
[04:53] <seb128> "issues" rather
[04:53] <seb128> k, so you know about the issue, good
[04:53] <seb128> let me know if I can be useful at providing logs, details, etc
[04:53] <mvo> well, no. but I know that no languages usually means -> empty package lists
[04:55] <seb128> dholbach: there is no /usr/share/icons/Human on that install
[04:55] <seb128> ups, there is, hum
[04:56] <dholbach> seb128: do i have to change the value in libgnome2-common's dekstop_gnome_interface.schemas?
[04:56] <dholbach> s/dekstop/desktop
[04:57] <seb128> dholbach: no, not that way
[04:57] <dholbach> seb128: sorry, the icon_theme value
[04:57] <seb128> use the gconf.defaults for it
[04:57] <dholbach> seb128: what do you propose?
[04:57] <dholbach> ah right... but that's the right key, right?
[04:57] <seb128> wait I'm getting the source package :p
[04:57] <pitti> Mithrandir: ok, current ppc/install works (with Testing/Short plan), modulo the brltty debconf questions
[04:58] <seb128> dholbach: yeah
[04:58] <seb128> debian/libgnome2-common.gconf-defaults
[04:58] <dholbach> seb128: can you close bug 37489 with that?
[04:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 37489 in ubuntu-artwork "newly added user doesn't see default theme" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/37489
[04:58] <seb128> /desktop/gnome/interface/icon_theme Human
=== glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-90-103.mnet-online.de]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[04:59] <seb128> dholbach: should I do the libgnome update?
[04:59] <seb128> or do you do it?
[04:59] <dholbach> seb128: i'm happy if you do it, that's fine with me
[05:00] <seb128> dholbach: I don't really care, you are the icon guy, do it :)
[05:00] <seb128> and close the bug ;)
[05:00] <dholbach> ok
[05:00] <HiddenWolf> hey seb128, dholbach, can something be thought up to avoid that an -artwork release updates/overwrites the default background?
[05:00] <seb128> mvo: do you need any data on that install before I run apt-get update?
[05:00] <HiddenWolf> That new background scared the heck out of me.
[05:00] <dholbach> HiddenWolf: it was always the same icon that was shipped, we're planning to do ubuntu-artwork-$(release) soon, but not now
[05:00] <mvo> seb128: no
[05:00] <ogra> HiddenWolf, just use a non default wallpaper
[05:00] <seb128> HiddenWolf: what do you mean? Select your background, that's an use setting
[05:00] <dholbach> HiddenWolf: s/icon/wallpaper
[05:01] <seb128> user
[05:01] <pitti> Mithrandir: since you'll build new images anyway, I'm not yet adding stuff to the test plan matrix, right?
[05:01] <HiddenWolf> ogra: Doing that now, first time I saw the new sparkle, I thought my screen was corrupt.
[05:01] <seb128> hum
[05:01] <seb128> network not configured :/
=== ogra hasnt see the new themme yet
[05:01] <ogra> *seen
[05:01] <seb128> I had to run "sudo dhclient" to get an IP
[05:02] <janimo> seb128, dholbach: gnumeric debian packager said he's in principle ok with gtk only patches to the same source, and would take them if they got testing in ubuntu, but right now has not free time to work on it and get them in debain first
[05:03] <janimo> I'd like you to accepts debdiffs against goffice/gnumeric to make this happen here first
[05:03] <seb128> janimo: after dapper beta please
[05:03] <seb128> now is not the right time for such change
[05:03] <janimo> seb128: definitely, asked in principle for permission
[05:04] <seb128> no need of permission to send a patch :)
[05:04] <ogra> :)
[05:04] <seb128> I'm sure dholbach will be pleased to have a look next week while I'm on VAC :p
[05:04] <janimo> :)
[05:04] <janimo> seb128: great
[05:04] <dholbach> :-)
[05:04] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: looks like you can send the patches :)
[05:05] <Gloubiboulga> yep :)
[05:05] <Gloubiboulga> after the Xubuntu live cd test 
[05:05] <janimo> sure, no hurry
=== janimo concocts a plan regarding switching some gnome packages from cdbs while seb is not looking and enjoying VAC :)
[05:07] <seb128> I'll read mails daily ,)
[05:07] <seb128> ;)
=== janimo plans to change identity afterwards
[05:08] <dholbach> janimo: good thinking
=== janimo <3 cdbs actually
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[05:09] <ogra> seb128, thats only a matter of hiding it well in the cangelog and you wont even notice :)
[05:10] <doko> infinity: just upgraded a machine, one with a small /boot partition ...
[05:10] <dholbach> Mithrandir: are you ok with uploading  http://daniel.holba.ch/ubuntu/libgnome.debdiff ?
[05:10] <pitti> eeek @ new ffox fonts
[05:10] <infinity> doko: And felt the urge to file the bug again? ;)
[05:11] <infinity> pitti: Agreed. :/
[05:11] <dholbach> Mithrandir: it's a change that defaults new users to the icon love, not the old gnome icon theme
[05:11] <pitti> most web pages look good, but generated directory listings now appear in some Courier font that looks ugly
[05:11] <doko> infinity: RAMDISK: ran out of compress data 
[05:11] <ogra> infinity, yes, doko has fun with that, i also have some reopened ones ... he just cant accept a no ;)
[05:11] <Diziet> doko: Can you provide a test file for broken fonts ?  I'm trying to get the config and stuff so that we can have right answers all of the time.
[05:11] <infinity> doko: Yeah, same bug as has already been reported.  It's RC.  I'll fix it before we release, honest.
[05:12] <mvo> mdz: unfortunately the problem with the removal indication seems to be not that easy to fix because dpkg sends rather confusing state changes sometimes
[05:12] <Diziet> I mean, a file that came out wrong when printed, with the previous setup (before you reverted the removal of the aliases).
[05:12] <doko> http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/svn-book.pdf
[05:12] <mjg59> Oh urgh.
[05:13] <janimo> Mithrandir: whenever you have time, please make a xubuntu install cd
[05:13] <mjg59> doko: The fonts changes are not only ugly, they're poorly hinted
[05:13] <doko> Diziet: ^^^ that shows the wrong metrics, if you don't ahve the aliases
[05:13] <mjg59> They have huge colour fringes here
[05:13] <Diziet> doko: Thanks.
[05:13] <Diziet> mjh59: You mean in firefox ?
[05:13] <mjg59> Yes
[05:13] <infinity> Yeah...
[05:13] <infinity> What font IS this?
[05:13] <infinity> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/dapper_probs.html
[05:13] <infinity> It's making my brain hurt.
[05:13] <doko> mjg59: can fontconfig hint type1 fonts?
[05:14] <Diziet> infinity: That's quite grim, isn't it ?
[05:14] <mjg59> doko: I don't know that that's a question that makes sense
[05:14] <infinity> kerning is all wrong too, and seems to bounce around, depending on random things like line length and moon phase.
[05:14] <mjg59> Surely it's Pango that pays attention to the hinting?
[05:14] <Diziet> doko: So which page looks wrong ?
[05:14] <doko> infinity: you have to give us a png ...
[05:14] <pitti> infinity: ttf-lao needs to be promoted, it's approved
[05:15] <doko> Diziet: all of them, look at one page in the text
[05:15] <pitti> infinity: (for l-support-lo)
[05:15] <infinity> pitti: Erm, I was pointing at the font firefox uses for that, not the contents of the page. :)
[05:15] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: approximately twice as fast.
[05:15] <pitti> infinity: oh, you mean the fonts, not the contents
[05:15] <Mithrandir> BenC: pong
[05:15] <pitti> infinity: sorry, ECONFUSED :)
[05:15] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: cool thanks
[05:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: cool, but yes, not final images
[05:16] <mdz> mvo: ok, it should be less significant once bug #39989 is fixed
[05:16] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39989 in espresso "Language pack removal is incredibly slow" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39989
[05:16] <Mithrandir> dholbach: I'm not very happy about new uploads now since each upload means a two-hour delay.
[05:16] <doko> infinity: given that this is a serif less font, fc-match Sans should print the name
[05:16] <Mithrandir> janimo: running
[05:16] <seb128> dholbach: I like the new update manager icon ;)
[05:16] <doko> mjg59: please could you check, if http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ttf-dejavu/ looks better for you (in case that you actually use DejaVu)
[05:16] <mjg59> http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/ugly.png
[05:16] <infinity> doko: Has serifs here..
[05:16] <dholbach> seb128: tell mvo
[05:17] <seb128> mvo: I like the new update manager icon ;)
[05:17] <BenC> Mithrandir: unping, going to wait to upload the new kernel
[05:17] <Mithrandir> BenC: thanks. :-)
[05:17] <dholbach> Mithrandir: I understand. If there are complications and we have to wait anyway, it'd be nice, if I could do it then - does that make sense?
[05:17] <mjg59> doko: I have never deliberately chosen to use DejaVu
[05:18] <Mithrandir> dholbach: yes, then it'd be fine.
[05:18] <doko> mjg59: that looks like the Nimbus font. is subpixel rendering turned on? 
[05:18] <mjg59> doko: Yes, subpixel rendering is turned on
[05:18] <Diziet> Hrm, it seems to be caching it somehow.  Or maybe my X server doesn't have the right stuff in it.
[05:18] <mjg59> It's a laptop
[05:18] <dholbach> Mithrandir: ok, I think it's important enough, but it's your call.
[05:18] <infinity> doko: Yeah, my default proportional font in firefox is "Serif", which is "DejaVu Serif", apparently.  And hideous, for whatever reason.
[05:18] <ogra> thats definately nimbus
[05:18] <Mithrandir> dholbach: do you have any other small tweaks like this you need/want to get in, then please tell me now.
[05:19] <mjg59> doko: Nimbus appears to be the wrong choice here, since it deals with sub-pixel rendering really badly
[05:19] <dholbach> Mithrandir: not for the moment, no.
[05:19] <ogra> it doesnt at all
[05:19] <ogra> its a type1 font
[05:19] <mjg59> Whatever sans-serif I had before that worked much better
[05:19] <infinity> doko: Hrm, but it's clearly NOT DejaVu, since if I tell firefox to use that explicitely, it doesn't look like ass.
[05:19] <infinity> doko: So, fc-match isn't agreeing with firefox.
[05:19] <pitti> Mithrandir: ppc/live works, espresso still b0rked for me (will do bug fiddling for that)
[05:20] <doko> mjg59: the old problem, we only have one config system, but want  a) a good font on the display, b) a correct metric font for pDF's and printing
[05:20] <mjg59> doko: Sure, but unfortunately making webpages look offensive is going to piss off even more people than incorrect PDFs
[05:21] <infinity> Argh.  Switching firefox from "serif" to "dejavu" and back to "serif" makes it start picking DejaVu instead of whatever hideous thing it was before, so now I can't reproduce the bug.  Awesome.
[05:21] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: incorrect pdfs are a problem, ugly printing is a sin.
=== Gloubiboulga [n=ubuntu@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[05:21] <doko> mjg59: tell firefox not to use fonts specified by the web page
[05:21] <mjg59> doko: No.
[05:21] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: so? :)
[05:22] <mdz> mvo: perhaps it could be fixed in espresso rather than in apt?
[05:22] <Gloubiboulga> infinity, janimo: works fine :)
[05:22] <janimo> \o/
[05:22] <infinity> Spiffy.
[05:22] <mdz> mvo: before doing the removal, it could put up a new progress message
[05:22] <mjg59> HiddenWolf: And large colour fringes on webpages are grounds for excommunication?
[05:22] <janimo> Gloubiboulga:  espresso too ;) ?
[05:22] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: exorsism. ;)
[05:22] <Gloubiboulga> janimo: not tested yet, and I can't really test it now :/
[05:22] <infinity> janimo: Shall I let you tidy up your seeds a bit before we try a second run at generating images?
[05:22] <mdz> doko: so what are we doing about this for beta?
[05:23] <Diziet> doko: OK, I now see (trying to reproduce your problem) an apparently-squashed display, where the letters are too close together for their size.  Is that what you mean ?
[05:23] <infinity> janimo: I need to sleep sometime anyway. :)
[05:23] <doko> mjg59: depends on your priorities
[05:23] <doko> Diziet: yes
[05:23] <mjg59> doko: I think more of our users use web browsers than printers
[05:23] <doko> and partly overlapping
[05:23] <janimo> infinity: sure sleep tight, although I am not sure if I change much in the seeds for beta
[05:23] <mjg59> Now, admittedly, they're both large groups
[05:23] <janimo> and thanks
[05:23] <Diziet> doko: Right.  Excellent.
=== jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[05:24] <Mithrandir> I'm off for dinner.
=== mendred [n=mendred@59.92.48.85]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[05:24] <mjg59> But going from a situation where webpages look good with default settings to one where webpages are headache-inducing with default settings isn't a move forward
[05:24] <jsgotangco> yum
[05:24] <dholbach> Mithrandir: bon apptit
[05:24] <infinity> janimo: Yeah, if you don't change much, you'll just have tiny CDs, nothing wrong with that.  Faster downloads for a smaller system seems nice.
[05:24] <janimo> right
[05:26] <doko> Diziet, mdz: in the case of the PDF we want to have Nimbus a replacement for Adobe, for the browser we do not want that. fontconfig cannot differentiate between these requests AFAIK, so we have to make a decision about our priorities, or configure an application to go with our preferred choice.
[05:26] <Diziet> mjg59: Don't worry, I'm going to make it so firefox gets to use a different font.
[05:26] <mjg59> Diziet: Ok, excellent
[05:26] <Diziet> At least, if I can get it to work that is :-).
[05:26] <infinity> Diziet: Erm, but firefox isn't exactly the only thing in the distribution that displays HTML...
[05:27] <infinity> Diziet: Trying to fudge it in firefox preferences seems suboptimal.
[05:27] <mjg59> Oh, yes
[05:27] <mjg59> It would have to be at the gecko level, not the firefox level
[05:27] <Robot101> isn't the real problem that fontconfig tries to natively hint fonts which have crap hinting and should be autohinted?
[05:28] <mvo> mdz: I opened bug #40017 about the remove progress problem
[05:28] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40017 in apt "libapt progress reporting on remove/purge needs improvment" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40017
[05:28] <mdz> doko: for beta, the browser is more important
[05:28] <mdz> it's about one thousand times more visible than printing
[05:28] <Diziet> infinity,mjg59: Indeed.  I'm trying to make gecko pass something to fontconfig that fonts.conf could key on.
[05:29] <infinity> Diziet: If you come up with such a hack, be sure to pass it on to me for Thunderbird, since it doesn't use firefox's gecko (yet).
=== ogra wonders why we have that nimbus vs bitstream/djvu discussion every release with the same result 
[05:30] <infinity> I don't suspect it will for dapper, since trying to make it do so introduces too many frightening other issues.
[05:30] <doko> mdz: ok, so let's look, if Diziet can come up with something for the browser, I'm preparing a patch to revert that fonctconfig change
[05:30] <Diziet> infinity: OK.
[05:30] <mdz> doko: sounds good
[05:30] <infinity> doko: By "revert" you mean "make it like it was in breezy", or "make it one of the crazy things we've had over the last few months"?
[05:31] <mdz> I've uploaded the espresso fix
[05:31] <Diziet> `Revert' means `toggle it again' ? :-)
[05:31] <mdz> the third remaining blocker is the splash-down / eject prompt breakage on the live CD
[05:31] <Diziet> Both configurations are IMO pretty damn poor.
[05:31] <mdz> infinity is ostensibly going to sleep; who else can work on that?
[05:31] <ogra> Diziet, the breezy one worked very good
[05:31] <infinity> mdz: That was going to be "as soon as I've slept", unless someone else is less patient and wants to do it right now.
[05:31] <doko> infinity: "the crazy things", whatever you mean
[05:31] <Diziet> ogra: Except for printing and pdf viewing.
[05:32] <ogra> not here
[05:32] <mdz> infinity: what's your plan?
[05:32] <Diziet> Err, have you tried doko's testcase ?
[05:32] <ogra> i can print fine on my breezy box and view pdf's just fine
[05:32] <ogra> s/test/corner/ ??
[05:32] <doko> Diziet: if you have postscript printer with built in fonts, it's not a problem
[05:33] <infinity> mdz: I wanted to sleep on it before I decided which was less crackful.  I can either make usplash trap the signals from init and not die (crack), or patch init to skip killing usplash (slightly less crack).
[05:33] <giftnudel> who has a post script printer? Most people don't.
[05:33] <infinity> mdz: The latter is probably less surprising the people who try to kill usplash by hand.
[05:33] <doko> ogra: poppler in breezy didn't look at fontconfig
[05:33] <mdz> infinity: I'm not terribly concerned about it getting killed at this point, more about the lack of prompting
[05:33] <ogra> doko, i never had *any* problems with inkjet printers and fonts
[05:34] <mdz> infinity: if it gets killed, goes to a text console, and casper prompts there, that's good for beta
[05:34] <infinity> mdz: The lack of prompting is because it's getting killed, afaik.
[05:34] <ogra> no matter what font i use 
[05:34] <mdz> the problem seems to be that it's not cleaning up when it's killed
[05:34] <infinity> mdz: It dies, but the framebuffer is still painted.
[05:34] <mdz> infinity: it doesn't switch VTs
[05:34] <doko> Diziet: does gs use the Nimbus fonts as "builtin fonts", or does it consult fontconfig?
[05:34] <mdz> presumably init is still talking to a text console somewhere?
[05:35] <doko> mdz: would you consider ttf-dejavu-2.5 for the beta?
[05:35] <infinity> mdz: That's a reasonable theory.  It's actually talking to the console we're on (that's why hitting <enter> blindly works)
[05:35] <mdz> if SIGTERM would arrange for cleanup() to be called, I think that would do
[05:36] <mdz> doko: why?
[05:36] <mdz> does it fix a blocker?
[05:37] <mdz> infinity: in fact, I think an empty SIGTERM handler should do the trick, since it'll result in an error return from select(2), which breaks the event loop
[05:37] <mdz> I'll test
[05:38] <doko> a) nice dots for seb128, b) less aggressive kerning c) working ligatures in the browser (I did learn, that browsers are important), test page at http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/firefox-ligature.html
[05:38] <infinity> mdz: That should probably be done anyway, so it certainly won't hurt to add it.
[05:38] <doko> mdz: ^^^
=== Fjodor [n=sune@0x55510b65.adsl.cybercity.dk]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[05:38] <mdz> doko: after beta, please
[05:38] <mdz> infinity: switching over to vt8 results in a usable text-mode prompt
[05:38] <infinity> mdz: I'd prefer a nice graphical prompting to hit <enter>, but if you'd prefer that after beta, your fix sounds correct *anyway*.
[05:39] <doko> ok
[05:39] <seb128> doko: http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/firefox-ligature.html works fine with epiphany atm
[05:39] <mdz> infinity: the nice graphical prompt is definitely pre-freeze sort of territory; I had no idea this was still broken
[05:39] <infinity> mdz: That's a neat trick, since usplash is running on vc8 to start with.
[05:40] <Mithrandir> dholbach: actually, I'm fine with that libgnome fix.  We won't wait for it, though, so whether it makes it in or not is a tad undecided.
[05:40] <infinity> mdz: Yeah, the freeze snuck up on me, I think.  I'm blaming Easter.
[05:40] <mdz> infinity: hmm, must be switching to vt1 and back then, as I did when hunting for it
[05:40] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: any chance of you and heno whipping up a "This is shiny in Beta" page?
[05:40] <mdz> infinity: not sure why that would restore the framebuffer though?
[05:40] <dholbach> Mithrandir: does that mean, i shall go on and upload and we see if it makes it or not?
[05:40] <Mithrandir> dholbach: yes
[05:40] <dholbach> Mithrandir: right-o
[05:40] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: i am already on it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta
[05:40] <infinity> mdz: Oh, hitting vc1, then vc8 *should* repaint the FB, yeah.
[05:40] <mgalvin> and
[05:41] <dholbach> Mithrandir: done.
[05:41] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDapperBeta
[05:41] <mdz> dholbach: upload what?
[05:41] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XubuntuDapperBeta
[05:41] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: way ahead of me, thanks. :-)
[05:41] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDapperBeta
[05:41] <mgalvin> :)
[05:41] <dholbach> mdz: http://daniel.holba.ch/ubuntu/libgnome.debdiff
[05:41] <mgalvin> so hopefully we can will have tour of all the betas :)
[05:41] <mdz> infinity: ok, this is less trivial then
[05:41] <mgalvin> np
[05:41] <dholbach> mdz: a gconf key change to default new users to the shiny new icons
[05:42] <fabbione> bug #39907
[05:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39907 in openoffice.org openoffice.org-base "new table wizard crashes on ppc64" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39907
[05:42] <infinity> mdz: It may actually be easier to just not let the silly thing die.
[05:42] <Mithrandir> janimo: xubuntu published
[05:42] <janimo> Mithrandir: thank you
=== infinity -> back in 10 mins.
[05:43] <mdz> infinity: if we keep it from dying, we just end up with "Shutting down LVM volume groups" and no prompt, no?
[05:44] <Diziet> doko: I don't think gs generally consults fontconfig but I haven't checked.  It's possible that someone has added some code to do that.  (Not very well-advised, I would say ...)
[05:45] <mdz> infinity: oh, casper already tries to talk to usplash
[05:45] <mdz> assuming reading works, yeah, should suffice to stop it from dying.  I'll give it a shot.
[05:45] <janimo> mgalvin: the xfce4 version should be 'a svn snapshot very close to 4.4beta1, but not quite beta1' as we're between 4.3.0 and 4.3.90.1 :)
[05:46] <mgalvin> janimo: ok, thanks i will note that :)
[05:46] <janimo> mgalvin: but latest thunar and exo
[05:47] <mgalvin> k
[05:53] <fabbione> siretart: ping?
[05:54] <Mithrandir> janimo: you need livefs builds too or isn't that set up yet?
[05:54] <janimo> Mithrandir: infinity just set them up
[05:54] <janimo> there's a 386 live image which boots at least :)
[05:54] <Mithrandir> janimo: nice.  You'll ping me if you need something, then?
[05:54] <janimo> Mithrandir: sure, thanks
[05:55] <mdz> infinity: conveniently, the fallback from usplash_write QUIT uses kill -9 already. SCORE
=== Mithrandir twiddles his thumbs while he waits for lp to publish espresso
[05:57] <infinity> Mithrandir: ssh triggering on vivies (sparc) and castilla (hppa) should both work, but I'll ask you to refrain from banging out any hppa builds just yet.  I need to run some tests and such, and I just about passed out 5 minutes ago, so I think that means it's bedtime. :)
[05:58] <Mithrandir> infinity: ok, I'll wait with hppa, then
[05:58] <infinity> mdz: If you come up with something interesting, I'll read about it on -changes.  If not, nick hilight me on IRC, so I can catch the "it still needs fixing" in scrollback when I get up.
[05:58] <Mithrandir> mdz: espresso FTBFS on sparc.  Do we wait for fabbione to fix it or should we just go ahead?
[05:58] <fabbione> Mithrandir: go ahead
[05:59] <fabbione> Mithrandir: Kamion did it on the fly for me, we can fix it after beta
[05:59] <fabbione> Mithrandir: pointless to block 5 arches for me
[05:59] <wasabi> Hey. I uploaded a package a few days ago, and never got a reject or anything. Wondering what became of it.
[05:59] <wasabi> Might have been my key expiring... not sure. Need to fix it whatever it is. ;)
[05:59] <wasabi> It should have gone to new.
[06:00] <mdz> Mithrandir: go
[06:00] <infinity> wasabi: 20-to-1 odds (without looking) is that you uploaded to "unstable".
[06:00] <wasabi> Haha.
[06:00] <wasabi> Checking. I suspect not. ;)
[06:00] <wasabi> It's an original package.
[06:00] <wasabi> Nope. dapper.
[06:00] <infinity> wasabi: Package?
[06:00] <wasabi> gapti
[06:01] <Mithrandir> mdz,fabbione: ack
[06:01] <fabbione> Mithrandir: thanks tho..
[06:01] <infinity> Erk.
[06:01] <infinity> Mithrandir: We want the new brltty, right?
[06:01] <infinity> Mithrandir: It's in binary NEW.
[06:02] <Mithrandir> infinity: yes, we want it.  Very much so.
[06:02] <wasabi> Guess nobody's looked in there in awhile. :0
[06:02] <Mithrandir> infinity: can you process it while asleep?
[06:02] <infinity> Mithrandir: Right, I better process it, like, now.
[06:02] <Mithrandir> infinity: uh, publisher running now, isn't it?
[06:03] <infinity> Yeah..
[06:03] <infinity> As of 18 seconds ago.
[06:03] <infinity> Feh.
=== infinity grumps.
[06:04] <infinity> Mithrandir: Do you know if we want it all in main?  (NEW binaries include brltty-flite, brltty-x11, and a library ABI bump.  The latter is, of course, obvious)
[06:04] <infinity> Ugh.  And the SONAME bump will require building gnopernicus.
[06:05] <infinity> (nothing else, thankfully)
[06:05] <infinity> s/building/rebuilding/
[06:05] <Mithrandir> infinity: I don't think we want them in main, apart from the library.
[06:06] <infinity> Mmkay.
[06:06] <Mithrandir> heno's not around to confirm or deny.
[06:07] <infinity> wasabi: Your upload ended up in the "failed" queue (ie: LP got horribly confused processing it)
[06:07] <infinity> wasabi: Not awake enough right now to divine why.  Will do later.
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[06:08] <wasabi> k. thx!
[06:09] <Mithrandir> mdz: I can't see a new espresso upload yet, didn't the fix work?
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[06:11] <mdz> Mithrandir: 
[06:11] <mdz> Successfully uploaded /tmp/espresso_0.99.52.dsc to upload.ubuntu.com.
[06:11] <mdz> Successfully uploaded /tmp/espresso_0.99.52.tar.gz to upload.ubuntu.com.
[06:11] <mdz> Successfully uploaded /tmp/espresso_0.99.52_source.changes to upload.ubuntu.com.
[06:11] <mdz> -rw-rw---- 1 mdz mdz 224 2006-04-18 08:24 espresso_0.99.52_source.upload
[06:11] <Mithrandir> mdz: 0.99.52 was uploaded by Riddell
[06:11] <mdz> (that's UTC-7)
[06:11] <mdz> GAR
[06:14] <mdz> Mithrandir: re-uploaded
[06:14] <infinity> That bug really needs fixing.
[06:14] <mdz> s/ed$/ing/
[06:14] <infinity> (Assuming they were both accepted)
[06:15] <mdz> they weren't
[06:15] <infinity> Oh, then never mind. :)
[06:15] <infinity> (The bug still needs fixing)
[06:15] <mdz> this espresso bug needed fixing even more
[06:15] <Mithrandir> infinity: LP also needs a constant supply of speed or something so it'll move quicker.  The two-hour turnaround is killing us.
[06:16] <Mithrandir> or at least me.
[06:16] <infinity> Mithrandir: Disregard my previous comments about castilla.  hppa builds look good.  I'm just tweaking little now, and will do an ISO.
[06:16] <Mithrandir> infinity: excellent
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[06:18] <Keybuk> mdz: biff
[06:18] <siretart> fabbione: pong
[06:20] <fabbione> siretart: bug #38409
[06:20] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 38409 in Debian "creation of snapshots fails unpredictably" [Unknown,Unknown]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/38409
[06:20] <fabbione> is that lvm2 or udev that needs fixing?
[06:20] <mdz> infinity: we're completely silly; obviously we can't fix this with a signal handler because sendsigs follows up with SIGKILL for an encore
[06:20] <siretart> fabbione: AFAIU it is a bug in lvm2, which I currently workaround in udev
[06:22] <infinity> mdz: Right, so having init special-case processes named "usplash" was the second (and seemingly "saner") option, anyway.
[06:22] <infinity> mdz: Ideally, a whitelist of sorts, so it's not usplash-specific in the longrun, but for now, I'm happy to hardcode the one string.
[06:23] <Keybuk> fabbione: arguably udev rules bug
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[06:24] <Keybuk> though lvm really shouldn't be managing its own /dev nodes
[06:24] <fabbione> Keybuk: did you read all the bug already?
[06:24] <Keybuk> yeah, and the Debian one
[06:24] <pitti> Kamion: yay, my first successful espresso install!!! ppc still failed, but that was due to reiserfs again (I'll update the bug)
=== infinity wills drescher to speed the heck up, so he can go to bed.
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[06:25] <fabbione> Keybuk: you need to teach me how to read the details of 30 pages in less than 3 minutes
[06:25] <wasabi> One of these days I should try espresso.
[06:25] <mdz> infinity: a more beta-friendly option would be to chvt about and end up with a text prompt
[06:25] <wasabi> It just copy the livecd contents over then do package configuration?
[06:26] <Keybuk> fabbione: heh.  I learned in school
[06:26] <Keybuk> they spent weeks teaching us; the basic method is to be given an A4 sheet of paper full of text for just a few seconds, then answer questions based on it
[06:27] <infinity> mdz: That would probably fit easiest in casper, then, right before it does the text prompting for rebooting.
[06:27] <Keybuk> you get better each time, until you can read enough of the entire thing to answer any question in only a couple of seconds
[06:27] <mdz> infinity: yeah, is vt8 hardcoded?
[06:27] <mdz> infinity: if so; chvt 1; chvt 8 should do the trick just fine
[06:27] <infinity> mdz: Yes, "usplash -c" goes to vc8
[06:27] <Keybuk> it's also damned handy for reading people's screens before they flip vts
[06:27] <fabbione> Keybuk: so why does the mremap fails on page 20? :P
[06:27] <Keybuk> or for playing Buzz on the Playstation and getting double your friends' scores
[06:27] <siretart> Keybuk: so you think there is a race in udev somewhere? note that the bug isn't 100% reliable
[06:28] <Keybuk> fabbione: which one?  there were about 100 of them
[06:28] <fabbione> Keybuk: btw, i didn't claim it is a udev bug, but what i can see that a udev change triggered it..
[06:29] <Keybuk> siretart: I don't think there's a udev bug
[06:29] <fabbione> Keybuk: i was teasing your reading skills :)
[06:29] <Keybuk> it looked to me like lvm and udev were trying to create the same device at the same time, no?
[06:29] <fabbione> yes so it seems
[06:29] <Keybuk> fabbione: we haven't changed udev in ages
[06:30] <Keybuk> at least, not in that kind of way
[06:30] <fabbione> Keybuk: well i did never test lvm snapshotting either and we got a bug report...
[06:30] <fabbione> i am only digging into it
[06:30] <fabbione> is there any reason for udev to stick its nose in /dev/mapper?
[06:30] <Keybuk> nope
[06:31] <Keybuk> other than when I wrote the rules, I didn't know whether or not udev was supposed to manage those
[06:31] <Keybuk> so erred on the side of caution
[06:31] <siretart> fabbione: testing something nearly useful, you might be interested in this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SbuildLVMHowto :)
[06:31] <Keybuk> it was easier to make udev manage them, and stop if it it broke
[06:31] <Keybuk> than it was to make udev not manage then, and put the rules back
[06:31] <fabbione> Keybuk: i see...
[06:31] <Keybuk> it hadn't broken until now :)
[06:32] <fabbione> Keybuk: well it's a strange case.. i am not blaming anybody for it :)
[06:32] <fabbione> the only reason why i don't use snapshot is because it's not supported in clustered mode
[06:32] <Keybuk> should udev just not create /dev/dm/[0-9] *
[06:32] <Keybuk> and still create /dev/mapper/control ?
[06:32] <Keybuk> or should it create neither
[06:33] <fabbione> one sec...
[06:34] <Keybuk> siretart: drop the NAME="dm/%n", bit from your rule and see if that still works
[06:34] <fabbione> Keybuk: /dev/mapper/control is created also by the lvm init script
[06:34] <fabbione> but before we do any change we should make sure that "fixing" the udev rule doesn't break / on lvm
[06:35] <Keybuk> so how does that work in the initramfs? :)
[06:35] <fabbione> because i don't remember how lvm is managed in initramfs
[06:35] <fabbione> yeah we were getting to the same conclusion
[06:35] <Keybuk> in fact, does /dev/dm/* get created by anything _other_ than udev in the initramfs?
[06:35] <Keybuk> siretart: after you've changed that rule, update-initramfs -u and see if you can still boot <g>
[06:35] <fabbione> Keybuk: i can test it tomorrow.
[06:35] <siretart> Keybuk: so the line should look like this? `KERNEL=="dm-[0-9] *"`
[06:35] <fabbione> it's not something we need fixed for Beta
[06:35] <Keybuk> siretart: KERNEL=="dm-[0-9] *", OPTIONS+="ignore_device"
[06:35] <siretart> ok
[06:36] <infinity> Mithrandir: Okay, looks like the -x11 and -flite stuff for brltty is extra drivers/plugins, and drags in no universe deps, so in the interest of sanity, I'll send them to main for now, and we can deal with it later.
[06:36] <Mithrandir> infinity: ok
[06:36] <siretart> Keybuk: I can still create snapshots with that rule
=== infinity prepares uploads for the two packages affected by the SONAME bump.
[06:37] <wasabi> Zzzzz
[06:37] <siretart> Keybuk: but I can't reboot the system right now, I'm not at home currently. I can test this in a few hours when I get home
[06:37] <fabbione> Keybuk: the lvm hook is called in local-top (i assume before mount /) and that can probably be fixed easily.. but let me test before we speculate for hours :)
[06:37] <Keybuk> siretart: ok, let the bug know how it goes then
[06:37] <siretart> ok
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[06:42] <Diziet> *sigh*   I forgot to prime my ccache this morning.
[06:43] <fabbione> Diziet: and?
[06:43] <fabbione> did you run out of disk space?
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[06:46] <mdz> infinity: I implemented the workaround, but it doesn't work, and I don't know why
[06:46] <mdz> I still get the graphical framebuffer
[06:46] <Diziet> fabbione: No, I have to wait two hours.
[06:46] <infinity> mdz: Awesome.  Then you may have to leave it to me when I'm in my own timezone. :/
[06:46] <mdz> hmm, I wonder if maybe chvt isn't in cache
[06:46] <Tonio_> hello all
[06:46] <infinity> mdz: Or ask mjg59 to wax clever about it.
=== infinity heads to bed, finally.
[06:48] <fabbione> Diziet: hint.. slam the ccache on a partition on its own.. it's faster to umount mkfs mount than to do any other operation on that directory
[06:53] <Diziet> fabbione: That's not the problem.  The problem is that it's not primed so I actually have to wait for ff to build.
[06:53] <fabbione> oh primed as do pre-builds before you wake up?
[06:53] <fabbione> gotcha
[06:53] <fabbione> Diziet: btw.. new FF crashes on sparc..
[06:54] <fabbione> Diziet: BusError on NSGetModule()
[06:54] <fabbione> there is a  debian bug open too
[06:54] <fabbione> but i can't remember the name
[06:54] <fabbione> it was working not too long ago
[06:55] <mdz> mjg59: around?
[06:55] <Diziet> crashes> Joy.
[06:55] <Diziet> No Java involved ?
[06:56] <Diziet> (or other random crud found under rocks?)
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[06:59] <mjg59> mdz: Hi
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[07:04] <ogra> Mithrandir, did you do a edubuntu livefs build already ? 
[07:04] <ogra> (i see an 18.1 in the logs)
[07:06] <doko> mdz, Diziet: I'm away for the next hours, I've put the fontconfig update on chinstrap:~doko/uploads/
=== fabbione -> dinner and 24.. bbl
[07:08] <Diziet> doko: If I upload a fontconfig I'll be sure to bump the version number :-).
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[07:13] <doko> Diziet: ? 2.3.2-1.1ubuntu8 is the version in the archive ...
[07:13] <janimo> soumyadip: have you checked the xubuntu isos to see if they have acceptable indian lang support by default?
[07:14] <soumyadip> janimo, no, unfortunately, I've not been able to test the latest flight 6
[07:14] <janimo> soumyadip: np, just curious
[07:14] <soumyadip> janimo, however, language selector still does not install all required packages, especially IMs
[07:15] <janimo> soumyadip: in xubuntu or ubuntu too?
[07:15] <soumyadip> janimo, yup
[07:15] <janimo> if only xubuntu I'll need to have a look
[07:15] <soumyadip> janimo, I've apt-get upgraded last weekend
[07:15] <janimo> soumyadip: if you find such issues please file bugs in LP and assign to xubuntu-team
[07:15] <janimo> thanks
[07:16] <soumyadip> janimo, ok
[07:16] <soumyadip> incidentally, has anyone here got scim to work with OO2 ?
[07:16] <mdz> hmm, tricky
[07:16] <mdz> during startup, when usplash is killed, we want it to switch back to the original vt when it started
[07:16] <mdz> during shutdown, we want it to stay on the same vt, because that's where the console i/o is
[07:17] <soumyadip> well I got it to work on a friend's lappy, but unfortunately, I don't have access to that lappy right now, to be able to replicate the steps
[07:19] <infinity> mdz: (Yes, I'm still not asleep, argh)... The solution to that (which solves another bug Mithrandir has in his initramfs stuff) seems to be to stop having it switch VCs in the first place, and just run it on VC1.
[07:20] <Diziet> doko: What I mean is that if I invent an upload it'll be ubuntu10 so that there's only one ubuntu9 floating about - yours.
[07:20] <infinity> mdz: In a short discussion between me, Mithrandir, and mjg59, this seemed to be a sane and rational thing, and we couldn't really come up with a great argument to keep it on vc8, as it is now.
[07:20] <mdz> infinity: not very beta-friendly, unfortunately
[07:21] <infinity> mdz: No, not terribly.
[07:21] <mdz> infinity: it looks to me like by the time usplash gets killed, vt switching no longer works
[07:21] <mdz> neither by keyboard or by ioctl
[07:21] <mdz> I don't know why
[07:21] <mdz> infinity: can you think of another clever way to get the text restored?
[07:22] <mdz> maybe switch fb modes or something?
[07:22] <infinity> Not off the top of my head, but I've not dug deep into the scary that is bogl.
[07:22] <mdz> the test cycle for this sucks
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[07:23] <infinity> Switching fb modes is a dangerous proposition.  Should never be attempted automagically.
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[07:23] <mdz> I don't even understand why switching VTs restores the text
[07:23] <infinity> Because the kernel is redrawing what lives on that VC.
[07:24] <mdz> why does the text live on it, and not the graphics?
[07:24] <infinity> bogl doesn't write to any particular virtual console, it just write to "the framebuffer".  This can be evidenced it you daemonise it, and watch it keep blindly (over)writing after gdm loads.  (hint: don't do that)
[07:24] <infinity> So, switching to another VC makes the kernel write that VC's contents to the framebuffer, then swiching again does the same thing.
[07:25] <infinity> The VC's contents is the text, not usplash.
[07:26] <mdz> so if usplash is running, and I switch to vt1 and back to vt8, it will clobber usplash?
[07:26] <infinity> Well, only because bogl detects VC switches and kills itself.
[07:27] <infinity> If it didn't do that, it would keep writing to your framebuffer, regardless of which VC you were on.
[07:27] <infinity> If usplash dies (or kills itself), then yes, any VC switch will redraw the framebuffer with that VC's contents, and the usplash image goes bye-bye.
[07:28] <mdz> there must be some other way to tell the kernel to redraw the screen
[07:28] <infinity> Basically, you have to sperate the framebuffer (writing to video RAM) from the virtual console (kernel text I/O, which can print to many outputs, serial, framebuffer, etc), and it makes more sense in your mind.
[07:29] <infinity> And yeah, there surely are other ways to tell the kernel you'd love the framebuffer to be repainted with the current VC, but damned if I can think of one off the top of my head.
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[07:30] <mdz> reset via terminal escape codes doesn't seem to do the trick
[07:31] <slomo_> libbrlapi1 conflicts with libbrlapi... is this a known bug?
[07:32] <infinity> slomo_: I doubt it's a bug at all.  The two packages that need to transition are in the queue already.
[07:33] <infinity> slomo_: Or do you mean "they have file overlaps, but don't declare a 'Conflicts'"?
[07:33] <infinity> If that's the case, then no, I didn't notice.
[07:33] <slomo_> infinity: exactly that ;)
[07:33] <slomo_> they both contain /lib/libbrlapi.so.0.4
[07:33] <infinity> Right.  Fixing now.
[07:33] <slomo_> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/libbrlapi1_3.7.2-2ubuntu1_powerpc.deb (--unpack):
[07:33] <slomo_>  trying to overwrite `/lib/libbrlapi.so.0.4', which is also in package libbrlapi
[07:34] <slomo_> ok, thanks :)
[07:34] <lemsx1> infinity: what initramfs bug with usplash are you talking about? i have a bug in an app we are writing that when unicode_start switches the keyboard to uincode it stops the boot process completely. the app is started from initramfs and keeps listenting for keyboard events ESC and F2
[07:34] <KaiL> slomo, even only contain that file ;)
[07:36] <infinity> lemsx1: You do unicode_start in the initramfs?
[07:36] <mdz> looks like blank/unblank should work
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[07:39] <infinity> slomo_: Fix uploaded, thanks.
[07:40] <slomo_> infinity: np :)
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[07:46] <lemsx1> infinity: no, unicode_start is called by keymap.sh at rcS.d
[07:47] <lemsx1> infinity: but something strange happens then... the boot process stops completly and my app is just waiting... if i press ESC (to exit the app) then ctr+alt+f2 and press ENTER, the boot process continues
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[07:47] <lemsx1> infinity: i have NO idea how to fix this... i'm thinking it's related to the keyboard being switch to unicode (unicode_stop does the same thing)
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[07:49] <infinity> lemsx1: Could be trickier.  unicode_start and unicode_stop cycle through all the VCs on the system.  That may break your app's assumptions, if it's keeping open file descriptors on a certain VC and can't deal with the switching.
[07:49] <infinity> lemsx1: At any rate, I'm far too zonked to think much about it, but if you happen to track down anything that's sensible enough to make a bug report of it, I'll be happy to look at it.  Otherwise, catch me at a less busy time (ie: after beta release), and we can chat informally about what's breaking, and maybe why.
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[08:05] <lemsx1> infinity: thanks for the hints (and help offer). i closed all unneeded file descriptors and left only stderr and a named pipe. we will chat later about it then when you are less busy ;-)
[08:06] <mdz> doko,Diziet: what's the resolution on fonts for tomorrow morning?
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[08:06] <mdz> fixed espresso is accepted, and I have a usplash-vs-casper workaround in hand
[08:07] <_mvo_> mdz: should I upload a new apt too (with the wording fixes)?
[08:11] <mgalvin> is espresso supported on edubuntu?
[08:11] <mdz> _mvo_: sure, why not
[08:11] <ogra> mgalvin, supported yes, branded, no
[08:11] <mgalvin> ogra: k thanks
[08:12] <ogra> (not sure if we manage to get a branding ready)
[08:16] <Diziet> mdz: Well, I haven't got my fix working.  I have to delve into pango too it seems.
[08:17] <Diziet> So I think we should go with the reversion of the reverted reversion.
[08:17] <Diziet> (Ie, make the browser look good and PDFs bad.)
[08:17] <Diziet> For the beta.
[08:18] <mdz> Diziet: ok, please go ahead with that fallback then
[08:19] <Diziet> I think it's just duploading doko's change.  Let me check
[08:21] <Diziet> Yes, according to the changelog.  Should I review the debdiff or just upload it ?
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[08:22] <KaiL> the website for dapper beta mentiones network-manager? I thought, it got removed?
[08:24] <mdke_> KaiL, which website is that?
[08:24] <KaiL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta
[08:24] <mdke_> that's not yet been moved to the website
[08:24] <mdke_> you can submit comments to the author, as he prepares the document
[08:24] <Diziet> debdiff looks OK, I've uploaded it.
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[08:25] <mroth> when are the CD images going up?  I'm going to torrent them from work to help with the bandwidth, until our IT guys make noise at me anyhow
[08:26] <wasabi> This whole "select your city" thing in installers needs to follow the dodo
[08:26] <dholbach> the DapperBeta page has a screenshot with xscreensaver in the menus instead of gnome-screensaver
[08:26] <mdke_> dholbach, see above ^^
[08:26] <KaiL> dholbach, and with the old icons
[08:26] <dholbach> ok ok
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[08:27] <KaiL> ohm, that menu-screenshots overall look like being from breezy, or?
[08:27] <KaiL> at least the first 2
[08:28] <mdke_> KaiL, again, there is little point discussing it in this channel, and adding to the noise while the developers are trying to work. The page says how to contact the authors. Feel free to do so
[08:29] <ogra> dholbach, i have a fix pending for the screensaver menu mess, but there is a bug in gnome-menus that needs to be fixed before
[08:30] <dholbach> ogra: what's that?
[08:32] <ogra> dholbach, a menu override file, stolen from redhat, but our gnome-menus (or menu-xdg, not sure) ignore it unless you change the default settings in preferences.menu to be in another order... seb128 wanted to investigate that further
[08:32] <dholbach> what is that patch for?
[08:32] <ogra> the patch is for g-s-s to install the menu override file 
[08:32] <ogra> but its useless unless the gnome-menu stuff is fixed
[08:33] <dholbach> ok, what does the menu override do?
[08:33] <dholbach> i don't quite understand
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[08:34] <ogra> dholbach, 
[08:34] <ogra> <Menu>
[08:34] <ogra>   <Name>Preferences</Name>
[08:34] <ogra>   <Exclude>
[08:34] <ogra>     <Filename>screensaver-properties.desktop</Filename>
[08:34] <ogra>   </Exclude>
[08:34] <ogra>   <Exclude>
[08:34] <ogra>     <Filename>gnome-screensaver-properties.desktop</Filename>
[08:34] <ogra>   </Exclude>
[08:34] <ogra> </Menu>
[08:35] <ogra> it adds a file called gnome-screensaver-hide-xscreensaver to /etc/xdg/me3nus
[08:35] <dholbach> ok i see
[08:35] <ogra> so xss is hidden from the menu as long as gss is installed
[08:37] <ogra> the odd thing we discovered while examining why it doesnt work in our menu system, was that you had to change the order of directives in our (upstream default) preferences.menu 
[08:37] <ogra> so it seems to lie deeper in the parser or something
[08:37] <dholbach> yeah gnome-menus is a bit picky about that, I discovered
[08:37] <ogra> it shouldnt be, thats the point seb128 made
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[08:47] <ogra> wow, NM crashes noisy on the liveCD
[08:50] <highvoltage> who's that ubuntu guy who looks like "Where's Wally"'s name again?
[08:51] <mdke> highvoltage, ploum
[08:51] <highvoltage> that's it, thanks :)
[08:57] <Tonio_> slomo: ping ?
[08:57] <slomo_> Tonio_: pong
[08:57] <Tonio_> slomo: 3 days and no response from Michael Biebl...
[08:58] <Tonio_> I will wait a bit, but if still no response, I'l not going to wait for dapper+1 :)
[08:58] <slomo_> Tonio_: hehe he was probably on holidays or something :)
[08:58] <Tonio_> slomo possible yes :)
[09:00] <slomo_> i didn't saw him on irc too
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[09:00] <Tonio_> slomo_: let's wait a bit more...
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[09:15] <ogra> Mithrandir, usplash still times out for me on powerpc live
[09:16] <ogra> (right after readahead, "Preparing restricted drivers ..." is the first thing i see in console mode
[09:16] <ogra> )
[09:18] <ogra> apart from that, a completely broken NM on all arches and the regression in the screensize detection edubuntu live looks fine
[09:27] <crimsun> libbrlapi1 is missing a Replaces & Conflicts on libbrlapi
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[09:28] <crimsun> err, thanks for not reading dapper-changes, Dan
[09:28] <mdz> ogra: why are you shipping NM?
[09:29] <mdz> ogra: edubuntu should stay in sync with ubuntu for infrastructure
[09:29] <ogra> hmm, because i lag on seed merges ?
[09:29] <ogra> sorry
[09:29] <mdz> please merge and upload edubuntu-meta
[09:29] <ogra> yep
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[09:37] <ar0x> hi *
[09:40] <mdke> infinity, awake?
[09:40] <ar0x> I just saw that the ubuntu projet was participating to the SoC 2006
[09:41] <ar0x> is there a list of potential project on ubuntu or not ?
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[09:46] <j^> i have a question regarding implicit linking with libtool, .la files and not working linking; since dependency_libs are not added by the versoin of libtool in ubuntu/debian, whats the right way to do this?
[09:46] <mdke> ar0x, I haven't seen any announced. stay tuned to the -devel mailing list, I'm sure someone will post it when it is ready
[09:48] <ar0x> ok, thanks
[09:51] <ar0x> in fact, I already helped a bit on the ia64 (itarium) port last year with others students of my school (the ESIEE near Paris)
[09:52] <ar0x> but the "project" was dropped a few month after its begin :(
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[09:54] <zyga> does anyone know of publicly available devel shell on itanium (like sourceforge compile service?0
[10:00] <ar0x> I don't know
[10:00] <ar0x> we used to work on machine lended by school
[10:01] <zyga> I'm trying to build itanium box for a few months but itanium parts are rare on local-ebay-like-service (abit better than ebay)
[10:01] <zyga> I'm bidding on two cpu's now but I'll still need a mobo :-)
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[10:02] <ar0x> :)
[10:03] <zyga> ebay has some nice parts but way out of my price range ;P
[10:03] <Kamion> ogra: no espresso branding will be needed for Edubuntu
[10:04] <Kamion> mdz: fixing espresso on sparc is trivial if you want me to (debian/rules update which Riddell apparently forgot, upload)
[10:05] <Kamion> mdz: thanks for the gnome-session-save fix; do you have a bzr branch I can merge, or shall I do it by hand?
=== Kamion pulls from Riddell in preparation
[10:05] <ogra> Kamion, wow, cool, i'd have expected to have to touch at least the artwork 
[10:05] <Kamion> ogra: I don't expect so; I've made an effort not to talk about Ubuntu
[10:05] <ogra> thats really great :)
[10:06] <Kamion> ogra: at worst you might theoretically want a different icon, but it's not particularly Ubuntu-ish as distinct from Ubuntu derivatives
[10:06] <Kamion> what's the CD status? any cdimage tweaks needed?
[10:06] <ogra> i havent tried install yet
[10:07] <ogra> live was fine so far apart from the known breakage
[10:07] <Kamion> hmm, I see there are some cowboyed diffs on cdimage at least
=== Kamion merges
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[10:09] <mdz> Kamion: I didn't use bzr but can mail you a patch
[10:10] <Kamion> mdz: thanks, that would be good
[10:10] <mdz> Kamion: we're faced with a bit of a difficult choice at this point
[10:11] <mdz> Kamion: mailed
[10:11] <fabbione> Diziet: sorry.. no java.. it's sparc specific the buserror
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[10:12] <mdz> Kamion: anyway, so of our 3 blockers, one is fixed (the patch I just mailed) and two are worked around (usplash and fontconfig)
[10:12] <mdz> Kamion: I can live with the fontconfig workaround, but I'm torn about usplash
[10:13] <mdz> I see at least 3 options there
[10:14] <mdz> 1) release with the workaround (drops back to text mode at sendsigs), 2) revert the workaround and let usplash stay on the screen, frozen, at sendsigs, and change casper not to prompt about removing the CD, or 3) throw in my works-for-me solution which makes splash-down work properly (touches sysvinit, usplash and casper)
[10:16] <mdz> 1) gives us a cosmetic problem (though a glaring one that is likely to be bandied about in reviews), 2) gives us a usability problem, 3) takes a risk
[10:16] <Kamion> ugh, hmm
[10:16] <ogra> but we have still plenty of time if it needs fixage 
[10:16] <ogra> i'd go with 3
[10:16] <Kamion> I wonder how much reviews will actually bandy about that cosmetic problem; it's only on shutdown of the live CD, and is similar to the text on startup
[10:17] <mdz> no, it's on shutdown of the installed system as well
[10:17] <mdz> or else I'd agree with you
[10:17] <Kamion> jordi: man page source may not be UTF-8, except for some CJK cases that are handled specially; you have to recode to ISO-8859-1
[10:18] <mdz> I suppose 4) might be to adapt the workaround to behave differently on the live CD vs. the installed system
[10:19] <mdz> would involve usplash growing a test for whether it's running under casper
[10:19] <Kamion> mdz: just to clarify, the espresso "Install System Permanently" -> "Install" change is for final, not beta, right?
[10:19] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[10:19] <mdz> no point in breaking all of the translations for beta
[10:20] <mdz> Kamion: the concern is only that the CD covers match the desktop, and the CD cover decision had to be made
[10:20] <Kamion> I don't think there are any translations of that string
[10:20] <Kamion> the desktop file is as yet untranslated
[10:20] <Kamion> and the string change in the window title was very recent
[10:21] <mdz> there are translations in the debian/po po files
[10:21] <mdz> I wasn't sure whether those ended up in the mo file or no
[10:21] <mdz> not
[10:21] <Kamion> I think there's a better way to do the SUDO_UID thing FWIW (see poke_gnome_screensaver), but not worth rocking that boat for beta
[10:22] <Kamion> hmm, you're right, I may be dense
[10:22] <mdz> Kamion: it's actually $HOME which seems to matter; sudo -H was just the most expedient solution
[10:22] <mdz> since it probably ought to run under the live cd user anyway
[10:22] <Kamion> oh, no, if you look closely they're all fuzzy translations
[10:22] <Kamion> just autogenerated crap
[10:22] <mdz> if there are no translations, and we need to wait anyway, we might as well make the change
[10:23] <Kamion> ok, I'll sort out merge mechanics
[10:23] <Kamion> you still want the CD label change done, right?
[10:23] <mdz> yes, please
[10:24] <Mithrandir> ogra: I didn't think I had, no.
[10:25] <ogra> Mithrandir, ? you had what ? 
[10:25] <Mithrandir> ogra: built another edubuntu livefs
[10:26] <mdz> ogra: why is wpasupplicant in standard in edubuntu, but in minimal in ubuntu
[10:26] <ogra> hmm, but there was a 18.1 from ~14:30 UTC, so probably infinity has
[10:26] <ogra> mdz, no idea, infinity made the merge i'll look into it ...
[10:26] <Kamion> it was only shunted to minimal this morning
[10:26] <Kamion> because it was waiting on an LP fix that happened last night
[10:26] <mdz> Kamion: yes, but I asked ogra to do a merge less than an hour ago
[10:27] <ogra> ah, so the merge wasnt recent damned
[10:27] <Kamion> ah
[10:27] <mdz> I am starving, what's open late near south ken?
[10:27] <ogra> i just saw infinitys NM related merge and thought it was ready ... 
[10:28] <fabbione> mdz: are you at kk or the other hotel?
[10:28] <ogra> mdz, btw, does you being in london mean we'll see you in wiesbaden ? 
[10:28] <mdz> I am at the fieldwave office
[10:28] <mdz> ogra: no
[10:28] <ogra> :/
[10:28] <fabbione> mdz: yes i got that..do you plan to spend the night at the office?
[10:28] <mdz> fabbione: not if I can help it
[10:28] <fabbione> mdz: there was a nice resturant close to the hotel where we were for the soyuz sprint
[10:29] <fabbione> but i guess you are not going that direction.. are you?
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[10:32] <mdz> no
[10:33] <mdz> I plan to get something close by and come back here
[10:33] <mdz> we are not finished yet
[10:33] <fabbione> there was something like a McDonald close to the train station, but i guess that doesn't work either for you
[10:34] <zyga> guys
[10:34] <zyga> I have an unusual request
[10:34] <fabbione> zyga: my bank account is... 
[10:34] <zyga> me and my fiance are getting married soon and we are looking for a nice place to our honeymoon in july
[10:35] <dholbach> I'd love to know what everybody thinks about, when they try to remember when they heard that sentence before. :-p
[10:35] <zyga> 1) not too hot/expensive/far from E
[10:35] <zyga> EU
[10:35] <mdke> congratulations
[10:35] <zyga> 2) a nice place/country to go for one week
[10:36] <fabbione> zyga: south pole.. it's not too hot / it's expensive / it's far from EU
[10:36] <fabbione> and you can dance with penguins..
[10:36] <zyga> fabbione: bzzz, not too far from EU
[10:36] <mdke> zyga, italy
[10:36] <ogra> croatian adria
[10:36] <zyga> mdke: isn't italy very hot in summer?
[10:36] <fabbione> zyga: yes
[10:36] <fabbione> it's hot
[10:36] <fabbione> Russia
[10:36] <sm> south west of ireland, nice and cool
[10:37] <zyga> we thought about st petersburg
[10:37] <zyga> really beautiful city, very romantic too :)
[10:37] <fabbione> dude..
[10:37] <mdke> zyga, not _that_ hot. when are you going?
[10:37] <fabbione> mdke: he said july
[10:37] <zyga> mdke: july
[10:37] <mdke> ah, missed that
[10:37] <zyga> we get married on july the #1
[10:38] <zyga> s/../#1 of july/
[10:38] <ogra> wow, on release day
[10:38] <fabbione> zyga: are you going in honeymoon with a dapper cd?
[10:38] <mdz> zyga: the only ubuntu forum where this would be appropriate is sounder, where by definition nothing is off-topic
[10:38] <Lure> ogra: we slip for another month?
[10:38] <ogra> Lure, ouch, blind me
[10:38] <Lure> ;-)
[10:39] <zyga> fabbione: heh, no - no computers allowed
[10:39] <zyga> fabbione: both of us are deep in IT and we have enough computers to be fed up with them on our honeymoon
[10:39] <mdz> zyga: ...
[10:40] <zyga> mdz: ack
[10:40] <mdz> zyga: thanks, we're in a bit of a crunch here
[10:40] <dholbach> #ubuntu-offtopic might be a good choice too
[10:41] <mdz> dholbach: oh, I didn't know about that
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[10:41] <ogra> thats there since ages :)
[10:41] <zyga> thanks dholbach, mdz
[10:42] <dholbach> mdz: I'm not often in there either, I just observed it being recommended. :-)
[10:44] <ogra> gah, what a mess 
[10:44] <ogra> when was a server seed added to ubuntu
[10:44] <dholbach> ogra: a week ago?
[10:45] <ogra> gah
[10:45] <Kamion> I mailed ubuntu-devel@ about it
[10:45] <mdke> it was posted to the mailing list, I seem to remember
[10:45] <Kamion> you can harmlessly merge it
[10:45] <ogra> i cant
[10:46] <ogra> it clashes with edubuntu-server
[10:46] <Kamion> oh, edubuntu has a server seed
[10:46] <Mithrandir> mdz: I believe the tool you're looking for wrt killing all but a few select processes is pkill.  It'd need to be taught about pid matching, though.
[10:46] <Kamion> just resolve the conflicts back to the edubuntu version then
[10:46] <ogra> yes, i'm just trying to figure out why *all* my seeds have conflicts suddenly
[10:46] <Kamion> arguably the semantic clash is a bug in itself, and we should call one or the other something different
[10:47] <ogra> i was first !
[10:47] <ogra> :)
[10:47] <ogra> (i really dont care :) )
[10:47] <tseng> hm why does the new update icon make me think "reboot"
[10:47] <mdz> Mithrandir: a) it doesn't support the right boolean operations (we need X && !Y), b) it's in /usr, and c) I already fixed killall5
[10:47] <tseng> update-manager tray icon
[10:47] <tseng> to be clear
[10:50] <Kamion> mdz: CD label change done for whenever the next rebuild is
[10:51] <Kamion> doing espresso change in a moment, then probably going to bed, so shout if there's anything else urgent
[10:51] <mdz> Kamion: I'd like to have a new build with the espresso and usplash fixes
[10:52] <mdz> (the ones which were uploaded a while ago; I'm not fussed about the change you're making now)
[10:53] <mdz> espresso, usplash and fontconfig even
[10:53] <mdz> I think they should all be built by now
[10:54] <mdz> argh, the new brltty causes a conffile prompt on upgrade
=== Kamion will try to do a livefs build run
[10:55] <Kamion> but I'm exhausted and really need to go to bed soon or I can't be productive tomorrow, so I may need to fall over in the middle
[10:55] <Kamion> I'll let you know if so
[10:55] <mdz> Kamion: is it possible to queue a CD build to run when the livefs bulid completes?
[10:56] <Kamion> not particularly easily, unfortunately
[10:56] <Kamion> it's a twisty maze of ssh
[10:56] <mdz> my livefs build script allowed for that
[10:56] <Kamion> send me it?
[10:56] <Kamion> I've already started the livefs build though, so too late for this time
[10:56] <mdz> sure, but it's likely not to be up-to-date with the latest machine names and who knows what else
[10:56] <Kamion> I can queue a CD build with at, I guess
[10:56] <mdz> it's been a while
[10:57] <Kamion> I can cope with that much
[10:57] <mdz> will there be a daily build overnight?
[10:57] <mdz> (mailed)
[10:57] <Mithrandir> mdz: no, crontab's disabled.
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[10:59] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I can watch the progress and start a live cd build when it's finished.
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[11:02] <jdong> when init launches daemons, do they obey /etc/pam.d/common-session?
[11:02] <jdong> I'm trying to set a system-wide 027 umask...
[11:02] <jdong> for /var/log and such
[11:02] <Mithrandir> jdong: you can't count on it, no.
[11:03] <jdong> Mithrandir: how would you recommend I do it, then?
[11:04] <Mithrandir> jdong: I wouldn't. :-)
[11:04] <jdong> I basically want to keep prying eyes off /var/log
[11:04] <jdong> and private /home's
[11:04] <jdong> homes seem to obey libpam-umask in common-session pretty well
[11:04] <jdong> but I've yet to test logs
[11:05] <Mithrandir> libpam-umask doesn't work properly with gdm, for instance.
[11:05] <Mithrandir> (but that's a gdm bug)
[11:07] <jdong> hmm
[11:07] <jdong> is there any reliable way of doing a system-wide 027?
[11:07] <mdz> jdong: unless you're doing this in a package for Ubuntu, it would be better to discuss it elsewhere
[11:08] <mdz> we're working on the beta release here
[11:08] <jdong> mdz: sorry for disturbing you guys. I'll take this discussion elsewhere
[11:09] <mdz> thank you
[11:15] <Mithrandir> Kamion: did you set up an at job for live cd builds or should I do it when it's done?
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[11:16] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I haven't yet; I would love you if you could monitor the livefs build process and do a CD build at the end
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[11:16] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'll do that.  Go crash now.
[11:17] <Kamion> thank you
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[11:20] <mdz> Mithrandir: what will the build number be?  I'll send a call for testing
[11:21] <mdz> 20060418.2?
[11:21] <mdz> or 20060419?
[11:21] <Mithrandir>  20060418.2 unless it goes on until tomorrow
=== ogra grrs at bzr 
[11:22] <ogra> this push takes forever
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[11:26] <jordi> Kamion: thanks, I eventually figured out
[11:26] <mdz> Mithrandir: probably best to wait until one of us has sanity-checked it anyway
[11:27] <Mithrandir> mdz: I can test the i386 version in vmware here, but I can't do an install just now.
[11:27] <Mithrandir> mdz: we might want to just roll the image and call it a day and test it first thing tomorrow morning
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[11:28] <mdz> Mithrandir: agreed, I'm going to go search for food
[11:29] <mdz> be back in the morning
[11:29] <Mithrandir> see you around.
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[11:32] <mdke> Riddell, any chance you've got time for a swift kubuntu-docs upload? We've changed some strings and need to get the pot file to rosetta
[11:32] <Riddell> mdke: hmm, kindae close to beta
[11:33] <Riddell> but I do still have another upload to make so I guess that should be ok
[11:33] <mdke> Riddell, hang on a tic, lemme ask carlos something
[11:33] <Riddell> mdke: when was the last ubuntu-docs upload?
[11:34] <mdke> Riddell, if LP works propely, you might be able to just upload the pot file through the web interface, without uploading the whole package
[11:34] <mdke> Riddell, sunday?
[11:34] <Riddell> mdke: but then rosetta and the archive are out of date
[11:35] <mdke> Riddell, true, I don't think that is a big deal, they will resync with the next upload. Up to you
[11:36] <Riddell> I'll do it
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[11:37] <mdke> Riddell, thanks
[11:38] <Riddell> one of these days I'll do a docs upload when I'm not about to go to sleep or something and I'll take the time to just script it
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[11:43] <mdke> Riddell, heh :) appreciate it
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[11:59] <Riddell> Mithrandir: ping?
[11:59] <Mithrandir> Riddell: yes?
[11:59] <Riddell> Mithrandir: I'd like to get new kubuntu live fs builds and CDs once the packages I just uploaded go in
[11:59] <Riddell> Mithrandir: is it sensible to enable the cron jobs again so they get done by the time I wake up?
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[12:00] <Mithrandir> Riddell: I can do them first time in the morning and since I'm a TZ ahead of you, they should be there when you get around.
[12:00] <Riddell> Mithrandir: yep, that's good for e
[12:00] <Riddell> me
[12:00] <Mithrandir> Riddell: or ask infinity to do them when he wakes up in a couple of hours.
[12:02] <ogra> Mithrandir, same goes for edubuntu
[12:02] <ogra> i'm just preparing a -meta upload
[12:02] <Mithrandir> ogra: 'k.