/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/04/26/#launchpad.txt

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dilysMerge to devel/launchpad/: [trivial]  fix InternalHTTPLayer (unbreaks supermirror-pull-list.txt) (r1812: David Allouche)01:25
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Seveasdoesn't basic authentication work anymore?01:59
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lifelessddaa: you are seeing the canonical revision history now02:32
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mptGoooooooooooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!03:00
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stublifeless: So why did David's patch land with a rev no a few thousand less than expected, and should I be scared since he needs it cherry picked into production?06:30
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lifelessstub: bzr normalises the revision history now.06:43
lifelessstub: let me check06:43
lifelessstub: looks ok so far06:49
lifelesschecking the way-old-stuff now06:49
stubOk. So it is safe for people to merge as normal as long as they use new-revnos where necessary.06:50
stubIs the history normalization a one off, or will the numbers continue to change on occasion?06:50
lifelessat the moment it happens during push and pull.06:57
lifelessrevno: 1 looks correct.06:58
lifelessit will probably nbounce around a bit when we merge in all the history07:01
stubThis change will make documenting cherry picks difficult - saying 'Merge r666 from foo' is no longer useful. A unique, unchanging id might be necessary to support the workflow (?).07:02
stubAlthough 'Merge stuart.bishop@canonical.com-DEADBEEF123412349876' would be a bit sucky ;)07:04
stubAnd hopefully revnos won't change between a cherry pick request being requested and being done (or for that matter, between me entering a merge command and the merge actually starting)07:06
stubHeh.... don't push bound branches ;)07:08
stub11:57:56~/src/dropbear $ bzr commit07:08
stubbzr: ERROR: Cannot commit to branch BzrBranch5(u'/home/stub/src/dropbear/'). It is bound to BzrBranch5('sftp://goanna/home/z/zen/archives/dns/dropbear/'), which is bound to sftp://goanna/home/z/zen/archives/dns/dropbear/.07:08
=== mpt falls into the nine-hour-merge pit for the first time
stubmpt: Create a fresh branch from rocketfuel-built/launchpad and merge your changes into that. It is a lot faster than the other way around if you won't need to revert individual commits from before.07:13
stubbug 4048607:27
UbugtuMalone bug 40486 in bzr "normalizing history causes cherry picking workflow problems" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4048607:27
lifelessstub: log --show-ids07:28
lifelessstub: you rsync pushed didn't you.07:28
stubThe bound branch? Yes. I'll add that to the bug report.07:29
lifelessah, I know why the history has jumped around07:30
lifelessthe parent-ids are not ordered properly for some revisions07:30
lifelessI'll figure it out, then they will stabilise again07:31
lifelessstub: revids have never been useful : bzr supports 'uncommit'07:32
jameshmpt: "pull --overwrite" into a new rocketfuel branch should also avoid the reconcile07:32
lifelessjamesh: nope07:32
jameshlifeless: oh?07:32
lifelesspull --overwrite will still reconcile07:32
stubYes. I'm not sure of the best solution, but it needs to be thought about when bzr wants to support cherry picking properly07:32
jameshlifeless: I thought merge and pull pulled new information into the repository in essentially the same way07:33
lifelessjamesh: they do07:33
lifelessjamesh: thats why pull --overwrite will do a reconcile07:34
stubuncommit you are shooting yourself in the foot. revnos changing for reasons not your fault could be thought of as bzr shooting you in the foot ;)07:34
=== stub tries to find where carlos' patch r3488 has ended up ;)
jameshlifeless: stub was suggesting creating a new branch from rocketfuel-built and then merging into that.  I was suggesting creating a new branch from rocketfuel-built and then using "pull --overwrite" to pull data into it07:35
jameshlifeless: I'd expect either both to be fast or both to be slow07:35
lifelessjamesh: both the suggested merge and pull will trigger a reconcile or possibly even global reweaving07:35
lifelessbecause the databases are inconsistent with each other07:35
jameshokay07:36
stubThe merge approach worked for myself and carlos, saving a day or threes merge time07:40
jameshI guess the reconcile is quicker in one direction than the other07:41
stublifeless: Something else is odd. I've got a cherry pick request for r1812 from ddaa, but it doesn't exist in rocketfuel/launchpad/devel on balleny07:42
stub(unless the log output is broken)07:42
stublifeless: Emails were sent out about that rev07:43
lifelessstub: yes I'm looking into the issue07:44
lifelessfwiw07:44
stubok. I'll grab some lunch. Worst case I'll get ddaa to give me a diff when he is online.07:45
lifelesshmm, not sure where his commit hath gone.07:45
stubpqm is still busy doing stuff07:46
stubwebui says it is still dealing with ddaa's patch07:47
lifelessheh07:47
lifelessindeed it is07:47
lifelesslets see07:47
stub1.6gb resident.... regression?07:48
lifelessnope, thats the knit conversion07:48
lifelessneeds some tuning07:48
lifeless30129 is pqm07:49
stubWe can do it on carbon if ram is a problem ;)07:49
lifelesswhats carbon ?07:49
stubjubany's sister07:49
stub32GB ram07:49
stubAlthough I think elmo has stolen it for the beta release07:49
lifelessnice07:50
lifelesstest database server?07:50
stub(hell - we could use jubany. I havn't seen it go about 10% CPU yet)07:50
stublifeless: I want to set it up as a replica. I'll be testing with staging first.07:50
lifelessah, f'course07:51
stubheh... emperor is idle :)07:54
stubNew pqm box?07:54
lifelessnah, overkill. want that for playing quake on 07:54
stub(actually... probably slower due to slower cpus...)07:54
lifelessah, fckin, bzr had a read lock on the launchpad branch. hang on07:55
lifelessdang 08:05
lifelessI killed the wrong process. ddaa's patch needs to go through again08:05
stubsftp://chinstrap.ubuntu.com/home/warthogs/archives/david/launchpad//smallfixes/08:05
stubYou want to send it through?08:06
lifelessyup08:06
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lifelessstub: when you get back, can you please update the related product for https://launchpad.net/bounties/breezecom-pro-11-sa-pcr/+admin to be linux-source/linux/something like that ?08:21
mpoolubuntu, anyhow08:21
lifelessmpt_: how does one add milestones ?08:38
jameshlifeless: productseries page08:44
jamesh"add milestone" in overview menu08:44
lifelessyeah, just found it08:44
dilysMerge to devel/launchpad/: [trivial]  fix InternalHTTPLayer (unbreaks supermirror-pull-list.txt) (r1812: David Allouche)08:47
mpoolthat is a bit hard to discover08:47
lifeless'bit' :)08:47
mpoolis there a public faq?08:48
stub0 dollar bounty? Hmm...08:48
mpoolabout how to use launchpad, e.g. "how the hell do i add a milestone"08:51
jameshmpool: there is a link down the bottom of every page in launchpad, but it is currently cut off due to a zope bug08:51
mpool:-)08:51
jameshmpool: https://launchpad.net/faq08:51
stubmpool: Ideally stuff that isn't discoverable should be opened as bugs - mpt's goal is we shouldn't need an faq or manual at all.08:54
stub(although faq is good until we get there...)08:55
mpooleven the human nipple has an faq :-)08:55
mpoolbut it's a good goal08:56
stubThe human nipple is put to non-obvious uses though, so that is understandable ;)08:56
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mpooljamesh: thanks; i assume that's only editable by developers?08:56
jameshmpool: yeah.08:56
jameshit is a page template in the launchpad tree08:56
=== mpool goes to file a bug
=== stub gets out his alligator clips
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carlosmorning08:59
lifelesswhich of severity and priority did we keep ?09:04
mpooli added bug #4049709:05
UbugtuMalone bug 40497 in launchpad "very hard to find out how to add a milestone" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4049709:05
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SteveAmpt_: hello09:42
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lifelessbug *09:52
lifelessmpt__: stevea says hello to mpt_ 09:52
carloslifeless: is there anything wrong with rocketfuel's launchpad?10:00
carloslifeless: lattest commits have lower revision numbers than yesterday10:00
lifelesscarlos: yes, thats a quirk in bzr I'm looking into10:00
carlosok10:00
lifelesswe normalised the revision numbers , its nothing that will break you10:01
lifelessno data loss10:01
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carlosok10:25
mpt__mpool, where's the Nipple FAQ? :-)10:27
mpoolwhy do you need it? :-)10:27
mptI'm just questioning your assertion that it exists10:27
mpoolResults 1 - 10 of about 3,250,000 for nipple faq10:27
mptlogical fallacy: argument from google10:28
SteveAmpt: hello10:28
mptI don't mind the existence of a FAQ, but it's *completely* backwards that it should be developers maintaining it10:28
mpooli think this is the canonical faq: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_093.html10:28
mpthi SteveA 10:28
mpoolhi SteveA10:28
SteveAmpt: i /msged you as mpt_10:29
SteveAi'll do it again10:29
SteveAhi mpool 10:29
lifelessSteveA: evil evil man10:31
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SteveAjamesh: around?10:46
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jameshSteveA: yeah11:04
SteveAhi jamesh 11:04
SteveAdo you have time for a skype call?11:05
jameshokay.  I'll fire it up11:05
SteveAi'd like to catch up with what's been happening, interesting technical issues etc.11:05
=== stub disables pqm to run some tests
jameshSteveA: https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+spec/error-report-management-for-scripts11:23
stubjamesh: Are you replacing the existing log-exceptions-to-the-librarian code?11:39
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SteveAstub: right now, that's still a braindump11:54
SteveAjames and i were going to talk about what to do with it sometime next week11:54
jameshstub: the plan is to provide some infrastructure for scripts to be able to generate oops reports.  It would be a replacement for the log exceptions to librarian code in the scripts that used it11:55
stubIt was flagged as started I thought11:55
SteveAi'd like all our warnings, soft timeouts, errors and stuff to come into the same oops infrastructure11:55
SteveAso that we can plug it into the same QA processes11:55
jameshI didn't set it to started11:55
stubThe librarian stuff was just a hack anyway to save my mailbox from rosetta's DOS attacks11:56
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KeybukLaunchpad has suddenly lost its monospace-ness for the text entry box12:34
Keybukis that a style bug, or a firefox bug?12:34
Keybuk  font-family: sans-serif;12:39
Keybuk  font-family: caption;12:39
Keybukiz style bug12:39
mptKeybuk, suddenly? It's been like that for six months or so12:39
BjornTfwiw, in Opera the text entry boxes still use a monospace font12:39
Keybukmpt: new firefox or pango upload may have changed the font that it ended up with12:39
Keybukhaving two font-family declarations is a bug though, no?12:40
mptNo, because some browsers don't support "caption"12:40
mpt(which is CSS2-ese for "whatever font your native GUI uses")12:40
mptSo the idea is to use caption if the browser knows how to implement it, or sans-serif if it doesn't12:41
Keybukit's picked a serif font which is nothing like what my GUI uses12:41
mptso it does12:41
mptThat would be a bug in Firefox, then12:41
stubbug comments are having whitespace chomped too12:41
mpthmmmmm12:42
mptdata:text/html,<html><p style="font: caption;">Foo</html> works as expected12:42
mptso, it's a Launchpad bug12:42
mptno, DOM Inspector says "caption" for Computed Style12:44
mptso it's a Firefox bug12:44
=== mpt nukes the "caption" line anyway
mptThe CSS2 UI module is the embodiment of dodginess12:50
carlosstub: hi, did you executed the migration script with the r1811 (was r3488) cherrypick ?12:57
mpooli just had a nice session with malone - thanks to all responsible01:06
mpooland goodnight01:06
mpoolon which note Epiphany finally collapses...01:09
lifelessmpt: discussioon in #ubuntu-devel about firefox and images :001:12
mdzkiko: X-Launchpad-Bug seems to contain priority, but not the more useful severity.  I assume this will be a non-issue when priority goes away?01:14
SteveAmpt: you should be able to write to ~stevea/public_html/menus-plan.txt on people.ubuntu.com01:23
SteveAplease check this01:23
SteveAkiko is at FISL, so may not read irc today01:24
SteveAmdz: we should have importance there, and we should be doing that shortly.01:24
=== SteveA adds a note to MaloneSimplifications
mdzoh, hi SteveA01:27
mdzI am unaccustomed to overlapping hours with you ;-)01:27
Keybukhmm01:49
Keybukwhy is the Wiki so much slower to save again?01:49
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mptmdz, dang, I was lazy and just deleted priority ... I'll add importance02:01
=== mpt thinks the branch will need re-review
lifelessdude, land what you have !02:01
lifelessthen add another much smaller patch for incremental tweaks02:01
=== lifeless is -not- interested in reviewing the whole branch a third time
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mdzmpt: I agree with lifeless; it's not critical for landing it02:05
mptok02:08
mptfor example, the bug icons are still be colored by priority, which will need changing, but I've XXXed that02:08
lifelessmpt: release early, release often02:09
=== mpt retrospectively supposes "are still be" is suitably vague grammar for "in my branch and later in production"
mdzmpt: have you given a heads-up to the distro team about this change?02:09
mdzgiven it's heading for production02:09
mdzin fact, malone is so visible that the larger community should probably be notified02:10
mptmdz, that's on my to-do list as soon as the branch lands in rocketfuel02:14
mptwhich will give people about a week's notice02:14
mptfurthermore, if people try to use priority or severity by e-mail, they get an explanatory message about importance and its values02:14
mptin reponse.02:14
mpt+s02:14
lifelessmpt: why has it not landed though? you got +1.02:15
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SteveAemail about "importance and values"02:15
SteveAsounds more like a lecture in morals02:15
mptlifeless, because many new occurrences of severity and priority were introduced recently and I haven't finished fixing them all02:16
mptthat's why I was considering getting another review, not just because of X-Launchpad-Bug!02:17
BjornTSteveA: care to take a look at https://chinstrap.ubuntu.com/~dsilvers/paste/file8q6KsL.html? it fixes bug 4032902:17
UbugtuMalone bug 40329 in launchpad "The wrong encoding is chosen if '*' is in the Accept-Charset header, but 'utf-8' isn't" [Normal,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4032902:17
SteveABjornT: yes, and it is still the correct URL even with the ? on the end :-)02:18
lifelessmpt: ah. yes, ok.02:18
lifelessSteveA: btw, us leaving priority in the database and code really concerns me. I understand mark has set a mandate for it, but I'd like us to consider putting some policy in place02:19
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SteveAleaving priority in there was news to me when i glanced at the spec today02:19
SteveAi don't see a point in the data remaining, because it will be out of date in a short time02:20
SteveAand i don't see a point in the code remaining, as it will be untested, and unused02:20
SteveAand so will just be decoy code02:20
lifelessthese are all thngs that concern me02:23
lifelessI don't consider my role inside the lp team sufficient to headbutt Mark on this, not after it was apparently decided previously.02:24
lifelessthats why I'm telling you;)02:24
Max_LittlemoreHiya, just joined due to a slashdot earlier. I'm really interested in RT audio and have a few ideas (although nothing prepared).02:24
Max_Littlemore... sorry didn't mean to hit enter yet.... :-[ newbie02:25
lifelessMax_Littlemore: rt audio ?02:26
mptMax_Littlemore, if you mean you're interested in real-time audio development for Ubuntu, try #ubuntu-devel02:26
mptThis channel is about Launchpad02:26
Max_LittlemoreWhat is LaunchPad? I use sarge at home and wXP at work... thanks mpt, like i said, i got this from trying to join a furum that wa linked to from /. - yes rt audio - let us all out mac the mac!02:29
SteveAlifeless: check your email.02:30
lifelessRe: Bug#363598: udev should conflict with ifrename ?02:30
lifelessdanke02:31
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mptand I was halfway through explaining what Launchpad was, too02:32
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jordihttps://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/4055002:36
UbugtuMalone bug 40550 in rosetta "Further filtering options for the Queue" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  02:36
jordicothere02:36
jordicarlos: there02:36
carlosjordi: cool, thanks02:37
SteveABjornT: looks good02:44
BjornTthanks02:45
SteveABjornT: my only comment, kinda hypothetical, is that we might have any preferred charset, not only utf-802:45
SteveAi can imagine favouring utf-16 for sites based in the east, for example02:45
SteveAbut then again, maybe yagni02:46
BjornTSteveA: i know. the adapter that i modified does prefer utf-8, so i'd say my fix is correct. i would say that the current design as how the encoding is chosen is kind of broken, but it works for most cases, and i don't feel like spending time on that.02:48
SteveAfine02:48
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carloshave a good weekend!!! see you on Tuesday!!06:43
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ohoelhm, I bet this is the right place to ask; is there an ETA on fresh langpacks hitting the archives?06:56
WaterSevenUb(Ideally that should be calendarized even during this cycle while monthly or weekly langpacks are not streamlined.... curious about the answer too anyway)07:01
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ohoeluntil search hits rosetta, it's hard to verify release-ready translations without regular updates07:02
WaterSevenUbyeah, I totally agree.07:02
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ohoelI know I've got the gnome ones right, but rosetta tends to introduce some "original" translations to replace mine ;)07:03
ohoelor rather, rosetta users tend to07:04
WaterSevenUbyes, true :)07:04
WaterSevenUbregular updates are great for testing.07:05
ohoelmmh, I almost feel like a troll atm :p07:05
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bradbstub: ping08:14
bradbstub: just double-checking: bug searches not matching on terms like "foo.bar" is bug 29227, right?08:15
UbugtuMalone bug 29227 in malone "Searching for "pmu" doesn't find "/dev/pmu"" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2922708:15
SteveAbradb: hello08:26
bradbSteveA: hi08:26
SteveAbradb: i don't think stub will be around until next week08:26
SteveAi wanted to ask, how's the "priority + severity -> importance" branch going?08:26
bradbSteveA: you'd have to ask mpt08:26
SteveAhas it landed yet?  i gather mpt is working on at least part of it08:26
SteveAokay, i'll mail mpt08:26
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bradbsalgado: I responded to both of your code reviews today. Might you have time to take a look?09:01
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ddaais that a problem with me, or did other people notice that rocketfuel-built is no longer updated?09:01
ddaaanyone knows what's going on?09:02
mdkei just tried to download a source tarball from launchpad for ubuntu-docs version 6.04.709:07
mdkeI downloaded and untarred it, and found that it was 6.04.609:07
mdkepresumably because .7 hasn't built yet, or been published or something09:08
mdkeis this a known bug?09:08
mdkeoh no, perhaps it is .7, the tarred folder is just called .609:11
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nick1hi, i have a question, on a URL such as https://launchpad.net/specs, what does the blue (i) mean on the second specification down?09:15
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nick1nevermind, it denotes it as informational only, it doesn't say09:17
SteveAnick1: the (i) Undefined09:17
kiko_hello there09:17
nick1oh09:17
nick1thanks SteveA09:17
SteveAis saying that the spec isn't linked to a full specification09:17
SteveAthat part of the UI could be improved to say that explicitly09:18
SteveAso i'm not surprised it was confusing09:18
SteveAhmm09:18
nick1okay, i'll file a bug09:18
SteveAor maybe i'm wrong09:18
SteveAbecause some that do link to specs also have (i) undefined09:18
SteveAnick1: please file a bug to say that it is confusing09:18
SteveAon the "blueprint" product09:18
SteveAand we'll check the source code and unconfuse it09:19
SteveAthanks!09:19
nick1i think it means informational only, cos i remember ticking that box, thanks, i will file a bug09:19
SteveAi guess it is the priority09:19
SteveAif you look at the spec's page, then the priority says "undefined"09:19
SteveAthe (i) might mean "informational" as you point out09:20
SteveAso, i guess i was wrong, the (i) and the "undefined" aren't linked -- they are two distinct pieces of information09:20
SteveAif the (i) had a nice pop-up image title, that would help09:20
nick1yeah09:21
nick1okay, im filing it now09:21
nick1SteveA: https://launchpad.net/products/blueprint/+bug/4063109:27
UbugtuMalone bug 40631 in blueprint "What does the ( i ) mean" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  09:27
nick1wow09:27
SteveAthanks09:27
SteveASeveas wrote Ubugtu.09:27
nick1its pretty cool09:28
nick1a good idea09:28
SteveAnick1: i assigned mpt to fix it09:30
nick1okay thanks09:30
nick1i'v not used launchpad in a while, its the 3rd one i'v reported today :/09:31
nick1infact, maybe all images should have alt/titles, its in the W3C09:32
bradbsalgado: What do you mean by "use another binarypackagename,09:36
bradbworkarounding the bug."?09:36
bradbBP is added to the description, and the description is currently not properly searched for search terms with dots in them, e.g. "package-name.1.2.3" won't find bugs that have that term in the description, because of the bug assigned to stub.09:37
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salgadobradb, replace 'linux-2.6.12' on "'field.packagename': 'linux-2.6.12'" with another packagename that doesn't contain dots09:38
bradbah, i see09:39
bradbsalgado: So, I specifically chose that package because it conveniently has a bin pkg name different from its src pkg name, so that I can be sure Malone is putting the right values in the right places. Since the code in question's only purpose is to get me the BugTask I just created (i.e. it's not testing the search, because that's tested elsewhere), how about just:09:45
bradb    >>> search_params = BugTaskSearchParams(user=current_user)09:45
bradb    >>> latest_ubuntu_bugtask = ubuntu.searchTasks(09:45
bradb?09:45
bradb    ...     search_params)[-1] 09:45
bradboh, with an orderby="id" thrown in for good measure.09:47
salgadobradb, the reason why I asked for that change was to make sure a search for the binarypackagename would return that bugtask09:47
bradbHm, the only way to usefully do that, I think, is to add more publishing records to soyuz. :/09:50
bradbAnd more SPs/BPs into the system, with SPs that have BPs that have names different from their SP.09:50
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bradbBecause the search matches on targetname already (as tested in bugtask.txt), so if targetname == bp name, nothing is really being tested.09:52
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bradbIt's just a word plopped into the description though, and we already test that it is being plopped into the description, and we already test searching the description, IYSWIM09:54
salgadoI see09:54
salgadoI know it's not trivial to add new sampledata on that area, so I think you can merge it09:55
salgadobut leave the search_params as it is09:55
bradbok, will do, thanks09:55
bradbnext thing I have to do here is email stub about the data migration we'll need to do now that BP is getting blow away, but I wanted to have the r= before going to that step09:56
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ddaaSteveA: ping10:30
SteveAddaa: hi10:30
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dokogood evening10:31
siretarthi doko 10:31
dokoare build logs available outside the librarian, so that I can grep over all build logs?10:31
bradbsalgado: Think you'll have a chance to respond to the other review response today?10:32
salgadobradb, I don't think so. I'm leaving soon and have some stuff to finish here.  I'll answer it on monday for sure10:38
bradbok, no worries, thanks10:40
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sitshi10:49
sitsI have a couple of launchpad observations10:50
bradbsits: Not many devs are around right now.10:51
sitsI know talk is cheap but I'm hoping to offer some partial solutions10:51
bradbI'd suggest mailing launchpad-users@10:51
sitsmmm but it's not on GMANE at the moment10:51
sitsand following lists on webmail is painful10:52
bradbor you can use malone to file your issues as bug reports.10:52
sitsoh I'm well aware of malone10:53
sitsthat's what I was going to talk about10:53
bradboh, well, in that case, I'm around, so you're in luck :P10:53
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sitsaround 5-6 years ago I spent a lot of time using the Mozilla bugzilla10:54
sits(about the same time mpt was active there actually)10:54
sitsat some point, someone introduced the unconfirmed flag10:54
sitsnow, from a developer perspective the unconfirmed flag is fantastic on a bug10:54
sitsit means you can avoid looking at potentially spurious bugs10:55
sitsunfortunately there's another side10:55
sitsit means someone has to look at a bug and confirm it10:55
sitsin the mozilla bugzilla it wasn't long before unconfirmed bugs ran rampant, outpacing the number of people looking at them10:56
sitsfrivolous bugs started turning up to10:56
sitsvague things that couldn't easily be dismissed, requests for outlandish features10:57
sitsthere were bug drives to get the unconfirmed count down and these would work for a time but one off heroics don't last long10:57
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sitsanyway I think the unconfirmed status though good for devs is bad for the bug system unless you have some amazingly scalable frontline support staff willing to soak up the flack10:58
sitsconfirming bugs is boring repetitive thankless work and as your work gains popularity you only need more people to do it10:59
sitsReports are often awful10:59
bradbwhat's the alternative to bug triaging?11:00
sitsbradb: hey I'm not finished yet11:00
sitsbradb: but that's a good question which I don't have a good answer to. I don't think there is an alternative per se11:00
sitsI think we need to leverage more of the people filing bugs and turn them into front line support people11:01
sitsof course that's easy to say and difficult to do11:02
bradbsits: I think a lot of OSS projects attempt to do that. /me digs up a recent bug mpt filed11:02
sitsbradb: oh ok...11:02
=== sits looks
sitscor blimey11:03
sitsmpt certainly knows how to file the bugs11:03
bradbbug 3792611:03
UbugtuMalone bug 37926 in malone "Manage expectations about newly-reported bugs" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3792611:03
bradbit's a subtle way of encouraging participation11:03
sitshmm low tech but subtle11:04
sitsthat's good11:04
sitsdunno that it's wise to put an upper limit on there though11:05
bradbkarma was also invented for this reason11:05
sitshmm11:05
bradbto reward people who contribute11:05
sitsnow that's an interesting one11:05
sitsI have some karma but I don't know what it means11:05
sitsdo I have a lot or a little?11:06
sitscan I use it to buy stuff?11:06
sitsdoes it let me talk louder?11:06
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sitsdoes anyone besides me ever check it?11:06
bradbsits: Karma is still pretty vague.11:06
sitsare there acts that decrease it?11:06
sitsbradb: oh ok11:06
sitsI mean one simple but offencive trick is to make a karma leaderboard11:07
sitsthis suckers the competitive into doing more11:07
bradbsits: we have one, actually11:07
sitsonce again I feel stupid for not knowing11:08
bradbsits: https://launchpad.net/11:08
bradb"Top contributors:"11:08
sitsbradb: you certainly have a lot of patience11:08
bradbsits: Don't feel bad. Lots of people new and more experienced with LP have a hard time working out the UI.11:08
sitsis there a longer one?11:08
bradbnot that I'm aware of11:09
sitshmm11:09
bradbbecause the numbers have been a bit too silly to get too serious about it yet11:09
sitsit's kind of disheartening to see someone with 100 times more karma. It's a big target to reach for11:09
sitswell maybe 5011:10
sitsI guess one thing I thought was that you could use your karma standing to draw more attention to your bugs11:10
sitsthis was based upon an idea that you submitted your machine's hardware11:11
sitsso launchpad could periodically churn out 10 bugs that you could try and confirm that others might not be able to11:11
sitsthe problem is it would only be a matter of time before people started gaming the system11:12
bradbbug 3382 might interest you11:12
UbugtuMalone bug 3382 in malone "Should be able to attach hardware database id to bugs" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/338211:12
sitsahem11:12
sitstake a look at who filed that one...11:12
bradbah11:13
sitsat least I'm consistent...11:13
bradbindeed11:13
sitsanother little problem that keeps coming up are attachments11:13
sitsit's absolute murder looking at bugs where people have posted the entirety of xorg.conf and dmesg into the body of the bug itself11:14
sitsand yet asking people to use Add Attachment is itself not a great solution11:15
sitsthe other day someone outsmarted me by uploading the requested output as an openoffice.org writer file11:15
sitsI can see just how it happened11:15
sitsbut it's hard to remember to say:11:15
sits"Please can you attach (using the Add Attachment link in the malone website) the output of the11:16
sits/etc/X11/xorg.conf11:16
sitsfile as a text file"11:16
bradbbug 32282 perhaps?11:16
UbugtuMalone bug 32282 in malone "Try to reduce of the amount of LONG comments" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3228211:16
sitsbradb: wow you ARE good11:17
bradb:)11:17
sitsThere needs to be a bradb bot11:17
bradbheh11:17
sitsok here's another one11:17
sitsrather thornier11:18
sitswhat's to be done about bugs on binary products?11:18
sitsI see that there are two sensible paths11:18
sitsthe SUSE let's get the binary producer on board to look at bugs filed in our bugzilla route11:18
bradbwait, what's a binary product?11:19
sitsor the RH hardass you're binary only problem need to be taken directly to the producer of the binary11:19
sitsbradb: where the source is not available11:19
sitse.g. acroread, nvidia binary driver etc.11:19
sitss/you're/your11:20
bradbsits: how does that work. is it like a binary package with no source package?11:20
sitsbradb: precisely11:20
bradbhm11:21
sitsif you go to the RH bugzilla with an nvidia binary driver problem they will point you at nvidia and the nvnews forum and promptly close your bug11:21
sits(this of course causes ill feeling and massive arguments but the bugs are always closed)11:21
sitsin fact11:21
sitsif your kernel is tainted at all and you have a kernel problem that can get the bug closed too11:22
sitsit's brutal but it keeps the bug tracker clean and full of theoretically solvable bugs11:22
sitsin fact there's another thing that can cause a bug to get closed quickly11:23
sitsyou get asked to take it upstream (e.g. a xorg problem) and then it is closed in the RH bugzilla11:23
bradbI'd have to discuss with the Ubuntu team what their support policy is for binary-only packages to learn more about how we can model it in Malone.11:24
sitsit's quite aggressive but it does stop the bug count getting out of control because a lot of bugs are resolved the same blunt ways11:24
sitsbradb: I'm just chucking stuff around11:25
bradbas a user, I know I'd hate to be told to go elsewhere.11:25
sitsthe SUSE way is they seem to have good ties with nvidia11:25
sitsif I want to know if a new binary driver release is imminent or try to get hold of an NVIDIA engineer you can try filing there as they seem able to "call" NVIDIA people over to look at stuff11:26
sitscompared to RH they are friendly to binary only vendors11:26
sitsand appear to have the working relationships11:26
sitsSUSE engineers sometimes look at problems involving binary drivers and try and resolve them too11:27
sitsand they seem to be among the few people who will work on the nv OSS driver11:27
bradbI don't think Malone can do much about support team policy, only about being able to capture binary-only bugs at all.11:28
sitsthe problem is these binary bugs stack up11:28
sitsand they can be hard to reduce into each other11:28
sitse.g. do you blame all weird lockups containing nvidia binary drivers on nvidia binary drivers?11:29
sitshey that's reminded me of something else11:29
sits(besides the fact that I'm recently unemployed : )11:30
sitsthe many bugzilla's have grown needinfo which has the useful feature of unsetting itself once a bug is replied to11:30
sitsthe RH bugzilla goes one further and also has needinfo_reporter which avoids the unsetting until the original reporter replies11:31
sitsRH use this to resolve what seem to be called "Hit and Run" bug reports11:31
sitsyou set the flag and then after (say) 30 days of no response you assume the reporter isn't coming back11:32
bradbthere's been some similar discussion about doing that in malone, bug 578611:32
UbugtuMalone bug 5786 in malone "NeedsInfo should be moved into a separate bug or bugtask flag" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/578611:32
bradband bug 3534411:32
UbugtuMalone bug 35344 in malone "Automatic bug expirations" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3534411:32
sitsah excellent11:33
sitsMandriva used to engage in mass closures once per release cycle11:34
sitsit's painful as a user but again it helps keep bug counts down11:35
sitsoh and while I remember - it's hard to know whether I'm doing the right thing11:35
sitsat the moment I am setting bugs to confirm when I too can reproduce the problem11:35
sitswhere I think a bug is a duplicate of another bug I add a comment saying I think that it is a dup of Bug #XYZ11:36
sitssometimes I just add a long comment if you touch upon an area I happen to have explorered11:36
sitsquite often I just ask for dmesg/lspci/xorg.conf output to try and move the bug out of the Ubuntu product11:37
sitsam I doing the right thing or am I making a nuisance out of myself?11:37
sits(also right now there's no easy way to find bugs you've commented on so I can follow up and see whether the things I thought were dups were later marked as dups etc. and self score)11:38
sitsI use my browser's history to try and retrace my steps but it's not easy11:38
bradbwell, with the perms as they currently are, Malone is suggesting that anybody who can confirm a bug should. if developers using Malone start complaining that this is too permissive, then we'll have to rethink the permissions.11:39
sitsalthough whichever smart alec set the default number of Ubuntu bugs to be displayed to 75 magically got me looking at more bugs per day11:39
bradbthe same could be said of marking a dup11:39
sitshmm11:39
sits(oh and thanks to whoever unshrank the bug list font size - you saved my eyesight!)11:40
bradbdrive-by commenting when you think you have something to contribute seems ok to me, and will be made a little smoother once i fix bug 977 (which i started fixing today, actually)11:40
UbugtuMalone bug 977 in malone "Commenting on bug should optionally subscribe you" [Major,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/97711:40
sitsah well that's close11:41
sitsbut not quite the same11:41
sitser let's see11:41
sitsok I can't work out how you make Ubugtu go. Which command do I need?11:42
bradbbug NNNN11:43
sitsoh I see11:43
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sitshmm I don't appear to have reported it11:45
bradbsits: do you think there's a need to distinguish bugs you've commented on vs. bugs you're subscribed to?11:45
sitsI guess I should file a bug saying "not easy to find bugs you've added a comment on"11:45
sitsyeah, I only want to subscribe to interesting bugs11:46
sitsand I want the subscription list to me comparatively small11:46
sitswith RH's over the top bugzilla I can do a query which says bring me up any bug I've commented in that has changed in the past 30 days11:46
sitsso I can dip in out extremely casually in bug tracking11:47
sitsthat is probably a very weird use case though11:47
bradbbug 36060 is bringing us in that direction too11:47
UbugtuMalone bug 36060 in malone "Bug needs a date last updated column" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3606011:48
bradbit's another current priority for me11:48
sitsdup identification is another massive area11:52
sitsonce upon a time Mandriva tried searching their bug db for words you typed into your bug and warning you which bugs looked similar11:53
sitsit brought back an awful lot of false positives though11:53
sitshowever11:55
sitssearching the dup list can be very interesting11:55
sitsproviding a dup is left in it's originally location it can often serve as a pointer to popular issues11:56
sitsbecause people "misthink" in similar ways11:56
bradbbug 30307 has an interesting idea for searching dupes11:58
UbugtuMalone bug 30307 in malone "omit_dupes and searching" [Minor,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3030711:58
bradbon the reporting side, bug 37425 has an idea for how to deal with common misthinks11:59
UbugtuMalone bug 37425 in malone "Prevent duplicates by suggesting products/packages holding targets of many other duplicates" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3742511:59
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bradbsits: I'm planning to head off now, but by all means, feel free to peruse Malone, report bugs, comment on issues that you have a particular interest in seeing fixed sooner rather than later, etc. Feedback is always welcome.12:04

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