[12:49] <mdke> does anyone know how khelpcenter works?
[12:50] <mdke> especially about showing localised documents
[12:50] <toma> f1? ;-)
[12:50] <toma> mdke: whats the question?
[12:50] <mdke> how does one go about ensuring that khelpcenter shows a localised document?
[12:51] <toma> mdke: thats not an easy question
[12:51] <mdke> toma, it wasn't intended to be
[12:51] <toma> mdke: in general you have to ensure that the index.docbook is localised
[12:52] <toma> mdke: but if it is made up from several docbooks, it can happen that you see a partly translated docbook
[12:52] <mdke> the document doesn't have an index.docbook
[12:53] <mdke> lemme check a few things
[12:53] <toma> you mean that there is a language which has translated docbooks, but no index.docbook?
[12:54] <toma> that means you can throw away the rest, you can not use it in that case
[12:54] <mdke> hang on
[12:54] <mdke> toma, have a look at /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu
[12:54] <mdke> you see there are some documents in there?
[12:54] <mdke> I've got some translations of those, and I wanna know how to make them show up in khelpcenter
[12:55] <mdke> is putting them in /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/cc/kubuntu sufficient?
[12:56] <toma> if you have translated docbooks yes
[12:56] <mdke> what are "docbooks"?
[12:56] <toma> i'm familiar with kde's system, which uses a conversion to pot's.
[12:56] <toma> but i guess that does not apply here
[12:57] <mdke> what did you mean by "docbooks"?
[12:57] <toma> if the file is in docbook format
[12:58] <mdke> but the english version of the file isn't in docbook format, it's html.
[12:58] <toma> tomlinux /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/kquickguide$ ls
[12:58] <toma> index.cache.bz2  index.docbook
[12:58] <mdke> gah
[12:58] <mdke> are you using breezy?
[12:59] <toma> no
[12:59] <mdke> what version of kubuntu-docs have you got?
[12:59] <toma> 6.04-5
[01:00] <mdke> toma, ok. Can you do a "ls" on some more of those directories and show me the output?
[01:00] <mdke> i haven't got a kubuntu system here
[01:01] <mdke> try serverguide
[01:01] <toma> ok, packagingguide and serverguide are html
[01:02] <toma> i cant help you there, but I would guess the system is the same
[01:02] <mdke> I'll just have to try it
[01:02] <toma> i'll give it a try as well then
[01:02] <mdke> thanks for your help. Any idea if Riddell is going to be around this weekend?
[01:03] <OdyX> mdke: he takes some free time... but will try to get a wifi access with his girlfriend's laptop I heard.
[01:04] <mdke> ok, thanks. I'll mail him
[01:05] <mdke> haha
[01:05] <mdke> speak of the devil
[01:05] <OdyX> woops
[01:05] <mdke> Riddell, hiya
[01:07] <toma> mdke: yes, that works for me.
[01:07] <mdke> toma, just putting them in the right place? ROCK
[01:08] <toma> yep
[01:08] <mdke> thanks
[01:08] <toma> np
[01:09] <mdke> Riddell, I've got 3 relatively important things to tell you about for kubuntu-docs, shall I collect them in a mail, or can I pass them on here? They don't require any immediate attention, but will eventually need to be sorted
[01:32] <raphink> hi Riddell
[01:32] <raphink> hi toma_
[01:32] <raphink> toma_: I need the help of a KDE expert on a bad korganizer bad bug
[03:17] <_arthurb> Hi, there is a show stopper in kwifimanager from dapper, which is in the default install... it really is a big problem, it is so badly broken there is almost no point in providing the package
[03:18] <_arthurb> the good news is there is on bugs.kde.org a patch for the bug
[03:18] <Hobbsee> _arthurb: oh is there? bug #?
[03:18] <_arthurb> the bad news is that it's not applied  in dapper
[03:18] <_arthurb> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123765
[03:18] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 123765 in general "Scanning isn't consistant with `sudo iwlist eth1 scanning`, even when launched as root." [Normal,Assigned]  
[03:19] <Hobbsee> _arthurb: this still happens on kde 3.5.2?
[03:19] <_arthurb> happens on tonight's update
[03:21] <Hobbsee> _arthurb: and does that patch fully work?
[03:21] <_arthurb> I couldn't apply it's patch to the source, but looking at the code in the patch I think it does
[03:21] <Hobbsee> mmm okay
[03:22] <_arthurb> it's a fairly simple modification of the code, maybe two or three lines
[03:22] <_arthurb> so merging it with the standard kubuntu patch shouldn't be a big issue
[03:22] <Hobbsee> true
[03:22] <_arthurb> thanks
[03:23] <_arthurb> btw there are many usability issues with this package
[03:23] <Hobbsee> _arthurb: try knetworkmanager
[03:23] <_arthurb> well I have a bug with that one too :)
[03:23] <Hobbsee> i know...i'm subscribed to the kdenetwork, so i see kwifimanager bugs - it's kinda depreciated anyway
[03:23] <Hobbsee> what's the knm bug?
[03:24] <_arthurb> yeah the code is so ugly
[03:24] <Hobbsee> also, i hear that wlassistant is quite good
[03:24] <_arthurb> nope a networkmanager bug
[03:24] <_arthurb> it doesn't want to start
[03:24] <Hobbsee> sudo NetworkManager --no-daemon?
[03:25] <_arthurb> long trace :)
[03:26] <Hobbsee> hmmm...filed a bug for it yet? networkmanager is not my area...and most kubuntu people dont hack into it...
[03:26] <Hobbsee_away> back in a bit
[03:26] <_arthurb> in short : NetworkManager: 0xffffe410 in __kernel_vsyscall ()
[03:39] <_arthurb> Ok, what about http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120117
[03:39] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 120117 in Audio/Video Plugin "crash when opening  Setting->Configure (Due to Webcam)" [Crash,New]  
[03:40] <_arthurb> there is a patch too for that one and its a must fix for dapper
[03:46] <Hobbsee_away> ArthurB: there's a patch for that?  awesome!
[03:47] <Hobbsee> riddell's asleep...and he's the one that controls all of that...
[03:51] <ArthurB> ur I mean... It gives me the chill that you have to whine to get that kind of patch in
[03:51] <crimsun> eh? there's raphink, too, no?
[03:51] <ArthurB> I mean kubuntu would even consider releasing without a working kopete ???
[03:51] <Hobbsee> oh yeah
[03:52] <Hobbsee> sorry, i'm freezing here, so my brain's not working too well :P
[03:52] <ArthurB> ok about that networkmanager thing I said
[03:52] <Hobbsee> ArthurB: well, what i more meant was that i'm pretty new to this, especially to patching, and wouldnt want to do it wrong...
[03:52] <ArthurB> I just hadn't commented my  interfaces in the conf
[03:53] <Hobbsee> otherwise, i'd patch it now, and ask raphink to upload it...but i'm not really confident enough to do that :P
[03:53] <ArthurB> but... knetworkmanager IS GREAT! Whao, I hope it the default for dapper
[03:53] <ArthurB> I can help you patch it for your own use
[03:53] <Hobbsee> hehe yeah, me too.  it's got a main inclusion request, so hopefully that will be accepted
[03:53] <ArthurB> kwifimanager is such a piece of poopoo crap
[03:54] <Hobbsee> heh i know - wonder if we can delete it...
[03:54] <Hobbsee> replace it with wlassistant, if necessary
[03:54] <ArthurB> ( this is from someone who read the code )
[03:54] <ArthurB> it was a shame compared to Os X or windows
[03:55] <ArthurB> I mean I don't blame the guy who wrote kwifimanager... I was just surprised that this was the state of the art for kde wifi connectivityt
[03:55] <Hobbsee> hehe yeah
[04:04] <jdong> ArthurB: kwifimanager is old technology
[04:04] <jdong> it's been around for a looooong time
[04:04] <ArthurB> I know
[04:04] <jdong> it served its purpose
[04:04] <jdong> it needs to step aside for dbus/hal :)
[04:04] <ArthurB> waiting for solid
[04:04] <jdong> the only downside of the network manager series is when nobody is logged in...
[04:05] <jdong> if you have a WEP/WPA network, it can't log onto it without user interaction
[04:05] <ArthurB> yep.. but anyway this is a desktop computer oriented distro so
[04:05] <jdong> kind of annoying for laptops that double up to do some minor server work
[04:05] <ArthurB> if you really want that kind of stuff no one prevents you from running a script dameon using iwtools
[04:05] <jdong> right
[04:05] <jdong> but that's overly elaborate
[04:06] <jdong> and not fitting with the whole HAL/DBus/ project utopia theme
[04:06] <jdong> :)
[04:06] <ArthurB> hum where are live there are ~16 wireless networks available
[04:06] <jdong> yeah, I got 8 around me
[04:06] <ArthurB> they often go offline and online.. reception varies
[04:06] <ArthurB> now
[04:06] <jdong> and when they're busy, it's just a jam fest
[04:06] <ArthurB> HOW DO I TELL knetwork manager to stfu and not tell me that such or such network appeared disappeared
[04:06] <jdong> I hop channels on my homemade router
[04:08] <ArthurB> I guess I'll patch it for my use... but it could definitely use a silent toggle
[05:06] <Hobbsee> ArthurB: i've just added the bug numbers to the corresponding ubuntu bugs.  will wait for someone else to wake up
[05:46] <poimen> riddel!
[05:47] <Hobbsee> poimen: he got disconneced a few hours ago..
[05:49] <poimen> :(
[07:46] <httpdss> im new to bug checking and wanted to know if there is any reason why https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15/+bug/32191 is still unconfirmed ,,, see last comment
[07:46] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 32191 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15 nvidia-glx "display errors - distorted lines" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[10:30] <raphink> hi there
[10:34] <freeflying> raphink: hi
[10:34] <raphink> hi freeflying
[10:35] <freeflying> raphink: haven't seen you long time 
[10:35] <raphink> freeflying: I'm around, but I don't chat that much
[10:35] <raphink> :)
[10:35] <raphink> hi jpatrick
[10:36] <jpatrick> hi raphink
[10:36] <raphink> :)
[10:37] <raphink> :s
[10:37] <raphink> lots of work
[10:37] <jpatrick> yep...
[10:38] <raphink> freeflying: so people who want to contribute can find resources to do it easily
[10:40] <raphink> seems Riddell is out for the weekend :)
[10:40] <jpatrick> He has trouble's with his server
[10:40] <raphink> argh 
[10:40] <raphink> that's not as nice :s
[10:40] <jpatrick> some people thought he was fired :|
[10:41] <raphink> haha
[10:41] <raphink> I can't imagine that could happen
[10:41] <raphink> anyway
[10:41] <jpatrick> or we'll be dead
[10:41] <raphink> I'm going to let my comp build
[10:41] <raphink> I'll bbl
[10:41] <raphink> as I have to clean the house
[10:42] <raphink> nice
[10:42] <jpatrick> Seems someone's ticked all the "Someone should review..."
[10:47] <raphink> hi \sh
[10:49] <\sh> good morning guys :)
[10:50] <jpatrick> morning
[10:50] <raphink> morning \sh
[10:50] <raphink> \sh are you going to LT ?
[10:51] <\sh> raphink: well, after all the happenings with kubuntu.de, and all the craziness, yes...I'll presenting together with amu the kubuntu booth
[10:51] <raphink> great
[10:51] <raphink> I think I'm going, too
[10:51] <raphink> I have to check bus schedules
[10:51] <raphink> to get to mannheim
[10:52] <raphink> since there's no bus going directly from Paris to Wiesbaden :
[10:52] <raphink> :(
[10:52] <\sh> the guys from LT asked us to do it, because they don't trust the gnome people for the assoc ;) funny story :)
[10:52] <raphink> haha
[10:52] <raphink> so who's gonna be there?
[10:53] <\sh> but the ubuntu e.v. assoc has to plan the booth and get all the stuff actually...that's the plan :)
[10:53] <raphink> ok
[10:53] <raphink> seems fair 
[10:53] <\sh> well, amu and I definitly :)
[10:53] <raphink> ok
[10:53] <raphink> good
[10:53] <\sh> think zerlinna (mirjam) and czessi will come to...but we check it out 
[10:54] <raphink> yes zerlinna is comingg
[10:56] <\sh> raphink: if you are interested to help us with the presentation, please write amu a mail :)_
[10:56] <raphink> \sh: can you think of a town closer to wiesbaden than mannheim?
[10:57] <raphink> the closest I get, the easiest
[10:57] <\sh> hmm...mainz
[10:58] <raphink> no bus to mainz :(
[10:59] <\sh> from mannheim to wiesbaden...it's 1h:30m with the train ... mainz is direct neighborhood
[10:59] <raphink> yes 
[11:00] <raphink> would you be there all days ?
[11:00] <\sh> looks like :0
[11:00] <raphink> ok
[11:00] <raphink> I think I would come for 2 days
[11:00] <raphink> like 5th and 6th
[11:00] <raphink> otherwise the hotel will ruin my economies ;)
[11:01] <\sh> Hope I get the money for the two weeks freelancing work asap...have to write the invoice next week, and I hope this company pays fast :)
[11:02] <raphink> what company?
[11:03] <\sh> top secret...but I can say, it's quite an interesting project I'm working on :)
[11:03] <raphink> hehe nice :)
[11:03] <raphink> lucky you 
[11:03] <raphink> :)
[11:04] <\sh> oh....I have to thank actually someone else, he told them, that I have a good reputation for this work
[11:04] <raphink> great :)
[11:05] <raphink> if ever I got the job you refused, I should thank you too
[11:05] <\sh> which job I refused?
[12:42] <raphink> hmmpf
[12:42] <raphink> I find this new tab behaviour in konqueror annoying
[12:43] <raphink> when I open links in new tab (background) they get the focus once they're loaded :s
[12:44] <jpatrick> I can confirm that
[12:49] <raphink> this is annoying
[12:49] <raphink> I often open new tabs in the background to check them later on
[12:49] <raphink> like I middle-click on lots of links so I can keep reading the current page
[12:49] <raphink> and then konqueror gets the focus to all these tabs one by one :s
[01:04] <marseillai_> raphink: and if they have automatic reload they take the focus each time they are reload ..... :s
[01:04] <raphink> yes, too
[01:04] <raphink> :s
[01:04] <raphink> I'd like to find a way to deactivate this behaviour by default
[02:33] <jpatrick> hey OdyX
[02:34] <OdyX> Hey jpatrick .
[02:34] <jpatrick> lost my connection last night, sorry :(
[02:36] <OdyX> jpatrick: no worry... I had to work for my exam of this morning...
[02:38] <jpatrick> ouch
[03:17] <OdyX> jpatrick: you know if that chan is archived  ?
[03:17] <jpatrick> what?
[03:17] <jpatrick> this one?
[03:18] <jpatrick> OdyX: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[03:28] <Tm_T> well well
[03:28] <jpatrick> hi Tm_T
[03:29] <Tm_T> moin
[03:31] <freeflying-ibook> Tm_T: night :)
[03:47] <verwilst> hello
[03:47] <verwilst> isn't there a beta iso?
[03:47] <verwilst> i'm downloading flight6 now
[03:48] <Tm_T> there is
[03:48] <Tm_T> http://kubuntu.org/announcements/dapper-beta.php
[03:49] <verwilst> yeah
[03:49] <verwilst> just seen it 
[03:49] <verwilst> desktop cd?
[03:49] <verwilst> espresso probably?
[03:49] <Tm_T> I think so yes
[03:49] <verwilst> hm
[03:49] <verwilst> me tries that one
[03:49] <Tm_T> please do :)
[03:49] <verwilst> my laptop is getting kubuntu/amd64ified again ;)
[04:40] <jdong> guys, what's the latest verdict on if espresso-kde works in the beta?
[04:47] <OdyX> jdong: it SHOULD. :D
[04:47] <jdong> :)
[04:48] <jdong> I've heard conflicting reports about freezes and sudden closedowns and other fun stuff
[04:48] <jdong> oh well
[04:48] <jpatrick> hmm
[04:52] <OdyX> jdong: I just lost all my HD content with Flight6's
[05:19] <raphink> _Sime: double screen settings now work with my powerbook in systemsettings :)
[05:19] <raphink> thanks for your work :)
[05:19] <_Sime> raphink: whooohooo!!!
[05:19] <raphink> I mean video copy so far
[05:20] <raphink> haven't gotten the _real_ double screen so far
[05:20] <raphink> but it's already nice to be able to use a projector
[05:20] <raphink> :)
[05:20] <_Sime> what do you mean?
[05:20] <_Sime> what is working? clone mode?
[05:20] <_Sime> or 'xinerama'?
[05:20] <raphink> yes
[05:20] <raphink> clone mode works
[05:20] <raphink> I couldn't even check the box before
[05:21] <raphink> now I can and it works
[05:21] <_Sime> cool, clone mode is rather important for laptops (and projectors)
[05:22] <raphink> _Sime: ah
[05:22] <raphink> shouldn't have spoken that fast
[05:22] <raphink> it _worked_
[05:22] <raphink> then the screen went off
[05:22] <raphink> and moving the mouse or so doesn't get it on again
[05:22] <raphink> 2nd screen I mean
[05:22] <OdyX> arf :D 
[05:23] <raphink> hmmpf
[05:24] <raphink> ah
[05:24] <raphink> and now it says it can't load the display module in systemsettings
[05:25] <raphink> _Sime: do you want a guidance report archive ? ;)=
[05:25] <raphink> ah!
[05:25] <raphink> for some reason, I logged on kopete
[05:25] <raphink> and all of a sudden, the 2nd screen went on again
[05:26] <OdyX> raphink: use Composite ?
[05:26] <OdyX> raphink: there's a know issue between Kopete and Composite..
[05:27] <raphink> no I don't use composite
[05:27] <raphink> just went off again
[05:32] <raphink> it's like it stops sending a signal to the 2nd screen after some time
[05:44] <OdyX> anyone using ktorrent here ? I find it takes a lot too much of memory..
[05:44] <Riddell> don't talk to me about too much memory
[05:45] <OdyX> Riddell: why?
[05:45] <Riddell> naaching out of memory killer went on a ramage on my server last night
[05:45] <Riddell> OdyX: when you say 'errors saying me "no error"' what do that mean?
[05:45] <OdyX> Riddell: I was unclear...
[05:46] <OdyX> rapid translation: "Error fetching list of printers: successful-ok"
[05:46] <Riddell> weird
[05:46] <Riddell> when did that pop up?
[05:46] <OdyX> which is certainly for testing purposes, but weird...
[05:47] <OdyX> Every time I want to print...
[05:47] <Riddell> ok
[05:47] <OdyX> In fact, I have not added a printer with your packages, but I printed with an ever installed one.
[05:48] <Riddell> would you mind removing cupsys with --purge then adding it again and seeing if you can add your printer ok?
[05:48] <OdyX> Riddell: I'm trying that now... I have to print maint-guide-fr :D
[05:49] <\sh> hey riddell
[05:50] <Riddell> good afternoon \sh 
[05:51] <OdyX> Riddell: error on purging cupsys-driver-gutenprint
[05:51] <Riddell> OdyX: from apt-get remove?
[05:51] <OdyX> Riddell: apt-get --purge remove yep
[05:51] <Riddell> OdyX: ah well, at least it's not a KDE error :)
[05:52] <OdyX> Riddell:  :D
[05:52] <OdyX> Riddell: another question: why noes kubuntu-desktop reccomend gnome-gv ? it's cupsys-driver ?
[05:53] <OdyX> s/noes/does
[05:53] <Riddell> it does?
[05:55] <OdyX> well... purge cupsys and install kubuntu-desktop... ...
[05:56] <OdyX> Riddell: No... it is cupsys-driver-gutenprint...
[05:57] <raphink> hi Riddell
[05:57] <Riddell> bon apres midi raphink 
[05:58] <Riddell> OdyX: hmm, I suspect a gnome user packaged that then
[05:58] <OdyX> I do even Riddell :D
[05:58] <OdyX> Gnome-users> Hear what Linus said! 
[05:59] <Riddell> now now, let's not start that
[06:00] <OdyX> Riddell: I'm  joking... :-> Maybe shouldn't I.
[06:00] <Riddell> OdyX: probably ok in here, but in #kubuntu or #ubuntu you could start a riot :)
[06:00] <OdyX> Riddell: Yeah.... I know that.
[06:01] <OdyX> It's pretty funny... as Linus probably uses TTY1-70 and emacs.
[06:02] <\sh> it is
[06:02] <\sh> emacs21 is the package..
[06:02] <\sh> and it is in main
[06:03] <OdyX> \sh: yeah, but not default...
[06:03] <OdyX> GNU-compliant ? ;-)
[06:03] <Riddell> emacs21 is one of the first things to go off the CDs when we run out of space
[06:03] <OdyX> Riddell: it is so big ?
[06:03] <Riddell> linus uses uemacs
[06:04] <Riddell> OdyX: emacs21 is the second largest package on my system.  largest is openoffice
[06:04] <OdyX> god...
[06:04] <\sh> yepp..emacs is an OS for itself ;)
[06:04] <OdyX> but you do use emacs.... :D
[06:05] <OdyX> 44,1 MiB if installed... pretty big.
[06:05] <_arthurb> how are beginners suppose to get around if emacs is not installed by default?! I'm shocked
[06:05] <Riddell> I use emacs yes
[06:05] <Riddell> I also use kate
[06:06] <\sh> use vim
[06:06] <_arthurb> nothing beats notepad in wine
[06:06] <OdyX> _arthurb: sure!
[06:07] <\sh> but most of the users are using kate or gedit (depeding on the flavour) only hardcore unix gurus are using vi or emacs ;)
[06:07] <\sh> nowadays :)
[06:07] <Riddell> it would be interesting to know the proportion of kate/gedit to emacs/vi users
[06:07] <OdyX> vi is very good for things like sources.list and xorg.conf
[06:07] <\sh> I'm even get stucked with mcedit :( or pico...I'm used to vi and emacs
[06:08] <_arthurb> I think kate | gedit should offer a functionnality to sudo when saving a file 
[06:08] <Riddell> pico evil, non-free!
[06:08] <OdyX> vi is very unintuitive though
[06:08] <\sh> OdyX: for beginners yes....for advanced users it's quite fast for doing day to day tasks
[06:08] <_arthurb> If a beginner wants to edit a configuration file for example, it will seem natural to him to open it from konqueror using kate
[06:09] <_arthurb> he then will proceed to do it's modification and be very very badly surprised once he's done
[06:09] <\sh> _arthurb: a beginner doesn't want to edit a configuration file...he/she wants to have a gui
[06:09] <OdyX> _arthurb: yeah... but a beginner should NOT have to edit a configuration file.
[06:09] <_arthurb> sure but sometimes they do
[06:09] <_arthurb> I've installed kubuntu for many persons
[06:09] <OdyX> well... nano does it job pretty well.
[06:09] <\sh> because there is no alternative
[06:09] <_arthurb> and they eventually run in this problem
[06:10] <OdyX> So.
[06:10] <\sh> e.g. .asoundrc...just writing a small utility to swap default soundcards in .asoundrc
[06:10] <OdyX> Leaving connection, have to move the laptop to the printer. 
[06:10] <OdyX> Seeya guys.
[06:10] <\sh> Riddell: oh btw... amarok + amarok-xine-engine and asoundrc/asound.conf
[06:10] <OdyX> (and girls)
[06:10] <_arthurb> (and harcore win95 users)
[06:10] <Riddell> _arthurb: we do have Konqueror's right click "Edit as Root" item, but your way does sound nicer
[06:11] <\sh> Riddell: I'm using just now a usb headset, which I set to be the default sounddevice in .asoundrc...
[06:11] <\sh> when it's not there anymore (e.g. unplugged), amarok and xine-engine won't play anymore, amarok is removing the engine settings, and there is no way to adjust it to another sound hw
[06:12] <_arthurb> true
[06:12] <\sh> the alsa docs but says, that the application must re read /etc/asound.conf every time it's starting new
[06:12] <_arthurb> the simple way would be to provide a open with "kdesu kate"
[06:12] <\sh> which doesn't happen for amarok and the xine engine
[06:13] <Tm_T> humm
[06:13] <\sh> Riddell: any idea how we can work around this annoyance and bug?
[06:14] <_arthurb> also in actions, the absence as "send as mail attachment" is puzzling... I can sign it with gpg, send it by bluetooth, put it on a data cd... but not send it with kmail...  
[06:15] <freeflying-ibook> Tm_T: have kopete-0.12 bianry package now ?
[06:15] <Tm_T> freeflying-ibook: dapper?
[06:15] <Tm_T> beta2?
[06:15] <freeflying-ibook> Tm_T: ya
[06:15] <Riddell> \sh: no idea I'm afraid, you'd need to poke an amarok develop
[06:15] <Riddell> developer
[06:16] <freeflying-ibook> Tm_T: dunna build it now 
[06:16] <Tm_T> \sh: what problem with amarok?
[06:16] <Tm_T> freeflying-ibook: ?
[06:16] <Tm_T> freeflying-ibook: http://www.tm-travolta.net/kde/kopete/0.12/
[06:16] <Tm_T> I think there's allor almost all you need
[06:17] <\sh> Tm_T: it doesn't reread the xine engine settings, when you change sound hw...it's only reading the "default" which , but if you change the default via .asoundrc it doesn't reread the configs, which should happen, when you read the alsa docs
[06:17] <freeflying-ibook> Tm_T:  poor , I'd buuld it for myself , I'm using ibook now
[06:17] <Tm_T> freeflying-ibook: ok
[06:17] <Tm_T> \sh: sounds, err, fun
[06:17] <Tm_T> bah bah
[06:18] <Tm_T> shttp is still broken in trunk
[06:18] <Tm_T> https?
[06:18] <\sh> Tm_T: well, you run into it, when you are using e.g. a headset, set it to default, restart kde, and after that, remove it, default setting for usb headset is just gone...no sound anymore :)
[06:18] <Tm_T> ouch
[06:19] <\sh> change .asoundrc to set another soundcard to default, restart amarok, no sound either, because it doesn't read the asound.conf again, only when you restart the whole kde session
[06:19] <OdyX_> Riddell: Ping
[06:19] <Tm_T> \sh: now in #amarok, there's makery and eean somewhat active ;)
[06:19] <OdyX_> Riddell: it does NOT work.
[06:19] <\sh> i'll join fast :)
[06:19] <Tm_T> markey even
[06:19] <Riddell> OdyX_: sigh, what's wrong?
[06:20] <OdyX_> Riddell: first of all... I cannot go sudo mode in Printer config
[06:20] <Riddell> you shouldn't need that
[06:21] <crimsun> \sh: I hope to address that the lack-of-a-gui-to-set-default-card in kde system settings this coming week
[06:21] <OdyX_> OK... Though at the end of adding my HP Deskjet 600... It said me something like "unable to load hplip - You hav no rights therefor, try to ..."
[06:21] <crimsun> \sh: right now I have a rather pressing kernel->sound issue to resolve
[06:22] <\sh> crimsun: I'm just hacking on a small pykde app for solving this issue locally for the user, changing .asoundrc
[06:22] <\sh> crimsun: but it won't help anyone, when you have to restart the kde session to grab the new default sound card
[06:23] <crimsun> \sh: ok, but please don't change ~/.asoundrc . That's always user-specific. Change ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf instead. I presume you're calling asoundconf?
[06:23] <OdyX> Riddell: so?
[06:25] <\sh> crimsun: the docs on alsa homepage, tells me, that the applicaiton which is using alsa should re-read every time it's started the /etc/asound.conf
[06:25] <\sh> which again includes .asoundrc 
[06:26] <crimsun> \sh: yes, that's an amarok engine issue, but Ubuntu convention (thanks to Martin Pitt) is to use ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf in Dapper.
[06:26] <\sh> crimsun: any docs on it?
[06:26] <crimsun> man asoundconf
[06:27] <crimsun> the only circumstances in which we touch ~/.asoundrc are: 1) ~/.asoundrc doesn't exist, in which case the markers are inserted and ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf included; 2) converting from older set-default-soundcard (in Breezy) syntax
[06:28] <\sh> for this you have to include .asoundrc.asoundconf from your local .asoundrc 
[06:28] <crimsun> yes, just typed that
[06:29] <crimsun> if ~/.asoundrc already exists and does not contain those markers, asoundconf will refuse to modify ~/.asoundrc*
[06:29] <\sh> yeah...but it won't help amarok, without restarting the kde session, and that's the bug actually...the other thing is not a problem at all to implement (calling asoundconf)
[06:29] <crimsun> unfortunately that's a larger infrastructure issue we can't really work around...
[06:30] <crimsun> well...we could forcibly reload the alsa modules, but that's highly intrusive
[06:30] <\sh> didn't help me 
[06:30] <\sh> even changing the settings in .xine/config didn't help...
[06:31] <Riddell> OdyX: hmm, a new error to me
[06:31] <Riddell> OdyX: i hplip installed and started?
[06:31] <crimsun> \sh: before you reloaded, did you change the index parameters per module?
[06:31] <OdyX> Riddell: well... default, huh ?
[06:31] <Riddell> sudo /etc/init.d/hplip stop; sudo /etc/init.d/hplip start
[06:32] <\sh> crimsun: when I reboot the laptop, with plugged in usb headset, my headset is card 0, and the on board sound hw is card 1....default in my local .asoundrc is card 0, 
[06:32] <OdyX> Riddell: OK, OK. I try again (the printer is near the routeur....
[06:32] <crimsun> \sh: are you using index or name syntax?
[06:33] <crimsun> \sh: under Dapper it's far easier to use name syntax (asoundconf list)
[06:33] <\sh> pcm.!default {
[06:33] <\sh> type hw
[06:33] <\sh> card 1
[06:33] <\sh> }
[06:33] <\sh> ctl.!default {
[06:33] <\sh> type hw
[06:33] <\sh> card 1
[06:33] <\sh> }
[06:33] <\sh> I swicthed the 0 into 1 :) and vice versa
[06:34] <crimsun> asoundconf just needs to set two parameters, !defaults.pcm.card and !defaults.ctl.card
[06:35] <\sh> which is just the same, but other format what I wrote..
[06:35] <\sh> which shouldn't make any difference...
[06:36] <crimsun> right
[06:37] <crimsun> if k apps aren't picking up, then something's buggered in them...
[06:38] <crimsun> the gnome analogy is gconfaudiosink not being dynamic; the state of devices is generated only once at login
[06:38] <crimsun> (thus hotplugging additional sound devices doesn't allow on-the-fly switching)
[06:38] <OdyX> Riddell: 
[06:38] <OdyX> Impossible de charger le pilote demand : 
[06:38] <OdyX> Impossible de crer le pilote Foomatic [HP-DeskJet_600,hpijs] . Soit ce pilote n'existe pas, soit vous n'avez pas le droit d'effectuer cette opration.
[06:39] <\sh> I have to test other sound apps in kde..to check...when it's only amarok, we are doing fine, but when all apps are not picking the settings up, we have really a little big problem
[06:39] <Riddell> OdyX: well that's a totally new error to me :(
[06:39] <OdyX> Impossible to load asked driver - Impossible to create driver Foomatic [...]  Or it doesn't exist, or you have not the right to process this operation.
[06:40] <OdyX> Riddell: and not only "new error", it's regression... I could before...
[06:40] <Riddell> OdyX: you could try with gnome-cups-thing to see if it's KDE's fault of CUPS's fault
[06:40] <OdyX> Beurk. 
[06:40] <OdyX> I can :-(
[06:41] <\sh> we have a little big problem...kaffeine is behaving the same
[06:41] <OdyX> Riddell: this make me install a lot of gnome.. :'(
[06:41] <OdyX> Riddell: less than emacs though
[06:45] <\sh> crimsun: looks like xine-engine is the problem actually...
[06:45] <OdyX> \sh: Just received your mail on *-devel ML. Your GPG key seems expired...
[06:46] <\sh> OdyX: can't :) it doesn't have an expiry date :)
[06:47] <OdyX> \sh... Well. Kmail && KGPG complain...
[06:47] <\sh> yeah see it 
[06:47] <OdyX> \sh kgpg no.. But kmail does...
[06:47] <OdyX> bizarre.
[06:48] <\sh> looks like it has problems signing attachments :)
[06:48] <OdyX> Riddell: Well... it worked.
[06:48] <Riddell> OdyX: gnome-cups-thing?
[06:48] <OdyX> Riddell: yep.
[06:48] <Riddell> foo
[06:49] <\sh> letstest with a mail to myself
[06:49] <\sh> could be mailman as well
[06:50] <OdyX> Riddell: and GOD.... it is a lot easier to install a printer... I usually don't like Gnome stuff, but you should take a look. I don't know how they make it, but the printer is auto-detected, two clics... as I have a big lag on Kde stuff to get the printer list... 
[06:50] <\sh> Message was signed by sh@linux-server.org (Key ID: 0xC189E733C098EFA8).
[06:50] <\sh> The signature is valid and the key is ultimately trusted.
[06:50] <\sh> mailman
[06:50] <Riddell> kdeprint is horribly unmaintained
[06:50] <OdyX> Riddell: Hum... I see. Shit.
[06:50] <\sh> OdyX: it's mailman the list software somehow
[06:51] <OdyX> \sh: Well....
[06:52] <\sh> let me check with my server install of mailman :)
[06:53] <OdyX> \sh: do you confirm bug 15485 ?
[06:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 15485 in kdepim kmail "kmail don't ask the phrase for decipher" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/15485
[06:54] <\sh> no...it's working properly at my place..but mailman is breaking the signature of the mail after approving by listadmin
[06:55] <\sh> problem with gpg-agent is, that it has to be started as session service with the xorg startup scripts..
[06:55] <\sh> same like the ssh agent stuff..that's why I don't use gpg-agent at all :)
[06:56] <OdyX> \sh: I have to... As the bug confirms here...
[06:57] <OdyX> \sh: just but a script launching it in ~/.kde/Autostart
[06:57] <OdyX> s/but/put
[06:57] <\sh> OdyX: did you startup the gpg-agent in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/? check the common-ssh-agent script and adjust it accordingly
[06:57] <\sh> OdyX: everything else is not working with gpg-agent
[06:57] <OdyX> \sh: well.. I except kmail does the work ALONE...
[06:58] <\sh> OdyX: no
[06:58] <OdyX> \sh which is not the case.
[06:58] <\sh> OdyX: it's the same problem with ssh-agent...when not started via Xsession.d...
[06:59] <OdyX> \sh Well.. I use gpg-agent now.. started with KDE
[06:59] <\sh> OdyX: start it with X :)
[06:59] <OdyX> \sh: I have a script...
[06:59] <\sh> OdyX: it was one of my first bugs I reported when I tried out psi on hoary :) 
[06:59] <OdyX> \sh in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/
[07:00] <\sh> OdyX: yeah....that's the right way :)
[07:00] <OdyX> \sh... no script is executable in that folder !!!
[07:00] <\sh> but if this is not working, then gpg-agent is uttlery broken somehow..
[07:00] <OdyX> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  567 2005-12-12 14:23 90gpg-agent
[07:00] <OdyX> weird.
[07:01] <\sh> well..
[07:01] <\sh>  /etc/X11/xsession.options you have to enable it :)
[07:01] <OdyX> \sh: One thing I don't understand... Shouldn't that be "automagical" ?
[07:02] <\sh> OdyX: no
[07:02] <OdyX> It's nothing easy for end user...
[07:02] <OdyX> \sh: why '????
[07:02] <\sh> gpg-agent is the biggest security hole ever
[07:02] <OdyX> \sh: so what ??? How do you do ?
[07:02] <\sh> OdyX: I'm typing my passphrase every single time :)
[07:03] <jpatrick> same here
[07:03] <OdyX> I'd like to... but I'm never asked for it.
[07:03] <OdyX> That's what I don't understand...
[07:03] <\sh> OdyX: check your gpg.conf
[07:03] <\sh> if there is something with gpg-agent, and it has no # in front of it, put one in front of it
[07:03] <_arthurb> OdyX: had that bug once
[07:04] <_arthurb> it said wrong passphrase without prompting me
[07:04] <OdyX> \sh done.
[07:04] <\sh> there is at least one application which changes the gpg.conf without asking, that's seahorse, a gnome gpg agent shit
[07:05] <\sh> now restart your xsession, without the agent
[07:05] <OdyX> means ?
[07:05] <\sh> remove/disable all starts of gpg-agent (even that in /etc/X11/xsession.config) 
[07:05] <\sh> restart your X+KDE Session and try again with kmail :)
[07:05] <OdyX> OK.
[07:06] <OdyX> That's what I had before.. But let's try.
[07:06] <OdyX> Should I remove my ~/.kde/Autostart/GnuPG ?
[07:06] <\sh> ps -ef|grep gpg-agent should show any traces left of gpg-agent..
[07:06] <\sh> sure
[07:06] <\sh> mv it out of the way first :)
[07:07] <OdyX> OK. Let's try.
[07:08] <OdyX_Irssi> KDE loading.
[07:09] <OdyX> \sh: did not work...
[07:09] <OdyX> Message chiffr (dchiffrage indisponible)
[07:09] <OdyX> Raison : Le module externe de cryptographie  openpgp  ne peut pas dchiffrer les donnes.
[07:09] <OdyX> Erreur : Bad passphrase
[07:10] <\sh> OdyX: give me your key id pls
[07:10] <\sh> lets check/
[07:10] <\sh> ps -ef|grep gpg-agent
[07:10] <OdyX> \sh: E9A278F0
[07:10] <OdyX> didier   18043 17715  0 19:10 pts/1    00:00:00 grep gpg-agent
[07:10] <OdyX> that's all I have
[07:11] <\sh> ok
[07:11] <\sh> now send me an encrypted mail pls...my key you should have in you pubring
[07:11] <OdyX> I do. :D
[07:12] <\sh> oh btw.,.which encryption engine are you using? you set it to "any" right?
[07:12] <OdyX> Well.. Where ?
[07:12] <Riddell> OdyX, raphink: http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org//projets/kubuntu_fr
[07:12] <OdyX> Riddell: I know... I'm second participant :D
[07:13] <OdyX> Riddell: but thanks for relay.
[07:13] <raphink> thanks for the info Riddell
[07:13] <\sh> OdyX: identity -> modify -> crypto -> prefered crytpo message format
[07:13] <OdyX> \sh: yep. Any
[07:14] <\sh> ok..send me a mail to sh@sourcecode.de
[07:15] <OdyX> \sh: done.
[07:15] <raphink> \sh: I'll upload your patch
[07:16] <OdyX> \sh: when signing, I get a BIG message from kmail complaining....
[07:16] <raphink> (for knetworkmanager)
[07:16] <\sh> yes..you are using openpgp inline messages, which is deprecated :)
[07:16] <OdyX> \sh ????
[07:17] <OdyX> It should not !!!
[07:18] <\sh> yeah...it's default behaviour...just tested it with a local test
[07:18] <OdyX> \sh: I don't understand.. My mails appear in the lower part as two-pieces..
[07:19] <\sh> decrypt plugin is broken
[07:19] <\sh> and encryption as well.
[07:20] <OdyX> Shit... what's that for stuff?
[07:20] <OdyX> \sh: so where's the option for sending MIME always? Any => MIME ?
[07:21] <\sh> it just works with plain encrypted message texts
[07:21] <\sh> so...encrypt your message, paste it into the mail text, and send it, then it's asking for the passphrase
[07:21] <\sh> weired
[07:21] <OdyX> you're laughing ?
[07:22] <\sh> no
[07:22] <\sh> openpgp plugin is broken
[07:22] <\sh> what was the bug report again?
[07:23] <\sh> well...as I said, try this: encrypt a text to yourself...paste the encrypted text into the mail window..and send it to yourself, without any signing or encryption of kmail
[07:23] <\sh> receive it, it should ask you for the passphrase
[07:23] <\sh> which is totally wrong
[07:23] <OdyX> So how should I make ? Use gpg-agent as I did ?
[07:23] <\sh> not wrong, but strange..it should support gpg mime stuff actually
[07:23] <\sh> s/mime is not supported anyways
[07:25] <OdyX> bug 15486
[07:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 15486 in gnome-panel "System, Places, <andthatlastmenu> dissapeared" [Normal,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/15486
[07:25] <OdyX> No
[07:25] <OdyX> bug 15485
[07:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 15485 in kdepim kmail "kmail don't ask the phrase for decipher" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/15485
[07:25] <OdyX> Yep
[07:26] <\sh> it's working with a plain encrypted text right?
[07:27] <OdyX> \sh: wait... Trying.
[07:27] <\sh> OdyX: the mail text should start with 
[07:27] <\sh> -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
[07:27] <\sh> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
[07:27] <\sh> hQEOA4ww4t4xp+87EAQAuJfCm0VYHGBIr614pdvxMb2VN1j629BLfVR/RQWXA7G8
[07:28] <OdyX> I'm tryiing... But I cannot send as Kmail WANTS to encrypt it...
[07:28] <\sh> no...uncheck the encrypt button :)
[07:29] <OdyX> \sh: was unchecked.. 
[07:29] <OdyX> \sh: but my entry in kabc says "always encrypt"
[07:29] <OdyX> \sh: changed...
[07:30] <raphink> \sh: did you forward your patch for knetworkmanager upstream?
[07:31] <\sh> raphink: no ... I need to check where I can save the state of the settings first...looks like that knetworkmanager doesn't use a global kconfig instance
[07:31] <raphink> ah
[07:31] <raphink> \sh: I tested and uploaded your patch
[07:32] <\sh> raphink: cool :) thx :)
[07:33] <\sh> well..knetworkmanager is not a nice piece of software, not good for reading :)
[07:34] <OdyX> \sh: that's weird.
[07:34] <OdyX> \sh: speaking of Kmail.
[07:34] <\sh> OdyX: outcome of the test? :)
[07:34] <\sh> it asked you for the passphrase right?
[07:34] <OdyX> It worked... Well.. I signed and then encrypted... Kmail only checked encryption...
[07:34] <OdyX> But yep. It asked.
[07:35] <\sh> and the source of the email is not a mime message, just a plain text with ascii armored gpg encrypted text
[07:35] <OdyX> Yep. That's bad bad bad.
[07:36] <\sh> yes...it's a broken plugin...and I think it's upstream problem
[07:36] <OdyX> \sh: So what should we do? Make end-user install/use gpg-agent or force to inline PGP or correct the plugin ?
[07:38] <OdyX> \sh: How do YOU decrypt mails ?
[07:38] <OdyX> gpg-agent ?
[07:38] <\sh> well, I receive most of the time plain encrypted mails without mime..that's why I never bothered :)
[07:39] <\sh> but for this, I just copy and paste the gpg stuff into gpg -d < EOF \ <paste code here>
[07:39] <\sh> but to be honest, I would like to fix the plugin
[07:39] <\sh> it's a serious regression of functionality
[07:39] <OdyX> \sh: sure !!
[07:40] <\sh> apt-get source kdepim
[07:40] <\sh> lets see what I can find out
[07:40] <OdyX> :D
[07:41] <\sh> .oO(looks like that I'm doing the ubuntu motu way again :))
[07:41] <OdyX> \sh: http://bugs.kde.org/simple_search.cgi?id=decrypt
[07:41] <OdyX> \sh: Ubuntu motu way ??'
[07:42] <OdyX> \sh on bugs.kde.org, they all say to use gpg-agent..
[07:43] <\sh> they are lazy people
[07:44] <OdyX> \sh: seems globally KDE guys Expect you to use gpg-agent and nothing else for all the MIME stuff
[07:44] <\sh> it's the wrong way (tm)
[07:45] <OdyX> Yep... But it visibly needs a lot of work on KDE side.
[07:45] <\sh> yes some nasty mime handling
[07:46] <\sh> but this should be possible...
[07:46] <OdyX> Sure... Thunderbird makes it natively..
[08:11] <\sh> Riddell: you can forget the patch now, raphink injected it already :) thx btw :)
[08:12] <OdyX> \sh: is there any possiblity to CREATE WIFI LANS with (K)NetworkManager ?
[08:12] <\sh> to create?
[08:13] <\sh> youmean set up ad-hoc wifi structures or letting ubuntu/kubuntu be an AP?
[08:13] <OdyX> Both...
[08:13] <\sh> no
[08:13] <OdyX> bad.
[08:14] <OdyX> vi /etc/network/interfaces then ?
[08:15] <\sh> for AP infrastructures there are other packages much better...actually it's more a server service
[08:15] <\sh> ad-hoc settings I'm doing with iwconfig :)
[08:16] <OdyX> Yeah... So do I too.. but adhoc should be doable with k-nm, no ?
[08:18] <\sh> no..it's only for connection establishing
[08:18] <\sh> you can't change the mode of your card (ad-hoc, ap, or repeater)
[08:18] <OdyX> hum.... 
[08:19] <\sh> this can only be done via iwconfig which is used internally by /etc/network/interfaces
[08:19] <\sh> and /etc/network/if-pre-up.d bla
[08:21] <\sh> brb restarting session
[08:37] <\sh> re
[08:38] <OdyX> Re \sh
[09:44] <\sh> Riddell: can we enable the wifi configuration from kcontrol in systemsettings
[09:44] <\sh> ?
[10:39] <Riddell> \sh: the broken one?
[10:39] <Riddell> you can get to it from kwifimanger if you really want
[10:39] <\sh> Riddell: just wondered, didn't try it actually...but we need something for setting up ad-hoc wifi networks
[10:40] <Riddell> can't knetworkmanager do that?
[10:41] <\sh> n
[10:41] <\sh> o
[10:41] <\sh> but this kcontrol module should do it, somehow :)
[10:41] <httpdss> Riddell: talking about adhoc, kwifimanager doesnt show the singnal strength :S
[10:42] <Riddell> httpdss: of anything?  or just adhoc?
[10:43] <httpdss> Riddell: never had the oportunity to use Managed ... i use a mesh network 
[10:43] <\sh> managed networks are just fine :)
[10:43] <httpdss> Riddell: so i cant tell 
[10:43] <\sh> you can see the signal strength :) just tested it :)
[10:46] <httpdss> the wifi applet works just fine . 
[10:48] <Riddell> we're considering replacing kwifimanager with wlassistant
[10:57] <httpdss> Riddell: well not a bad option, though its not to "eye friendly" :P 
[11:05] <\sh> k..going to bed..good night gentlement
[11:09] <httpdss> night .. 6pm here :D
[11:09] <Riddell> that's the amazing thing about irc, all sorts of timezones
[11:12] <httpdss> hehe .. not to mention australians which are one day ahead of us ..
[11:15] <httpdss> Riddell: on one of the wiki pages it says that python is the preffered language for ubuntu developers, i've been looking to find apps on python made for ubuntu, but found none.. any ideas of one ? 
[11:16] <Riddell> espresso/ubiquity live CD installer
[11:16] <Riddell> gdebi and gnome-app-install and language-selector
[11:16] <Riddell> launchpad.net
[11:16] <Riddell> bzr (bazaar-vcs.org)
[11:17] <httpdss> wow .. thx .. 
[11:18] <Riddell> the python thing is mostly Mark Shuttleworth's preference
[11:18] <Riddell> I largely agree
[11:18] <Riddell> although the language has some peculiarities
[11:18] <Riddell> and the kde python bindings have some problems I've come accross
[11:22] <httpdss> i started to explore python after that comment on the wiki, and i thank the person who wrote that on the wiki :P gr8 language .. my next step is c++ 
[11:23] <Riddell> I really miss the static typing of c++, it helps stop mistakes and aids in documenting the program
[11:23] <Riddell> but that's about all I miss
[11:24] <_Sime> I've been doing more Java at work, and the static typing makes everything feel like development  is going in slow motion.
[11:24] <_Sime> it costs so much time and effort to keep the typing system happy.
[11:26] <Riddell> why?
[11:26] <Riddell> I really don't see the advantage in dynamic typing
[11:26] <Riddell> it means you don't have a clue what you're ment to be passing into a method
[11:30] <_Sime> because spelling out all of my types for the compilier inside my methods is a real pain in the ass.
[11:30] <_Sime> Types for method signatures make a lot more sense.
[11:30] <Riddell> yes, that's the worst bit
[11:30] <_Sime> but having to deal with it all on every line of code that you write is really annoying.
[11:31] <_Sime> it is not so much that static typing is a bad idea. It is just that C++/Java style static typing is so laborious and time consuming.
[11:31] <Riddell> I never found it a problem
[11:31] <_Sime> it costs too much.
[11:32] <Riddell> and I've never had a need where I want a variable to be one type at the start then change to another type
[11:32] <_Sime> maybe type-inferrence is the way to go.
[11:32] <_Sime> true, you usually don't do that. It is all the declaring and declaring and declaring that bugs me.
[11:32] <Riddell> the weird things KDevelop does to infer the types in Javascript so it can give you variable completion is insane
[11:33] <Riddell> Foo foo = new Foo
[11:33] <_Sime> you should have a look at the language Boo, and also what MS are adding to the next version of C#.
[11:33] <Riddell> next version eh?
[11:35] <_Sime> http://www.codepost.org/view/126
[11:35] <_Sime> there is a short post about the type inference in C# 3.0
[11:37] <_Sime> http://boo.codehaus.org/Type+Inference
[11:37] <_Sime> and Boo.
[11:38] <_Sime> it looks like it could deliver the best of both worlds.
[11:45] <Riddell> that costpost article is interesting, but the   var b; b = 100 is the problem
[11:45] <Riddell> the syntax is inconsistent if you want to predeclaire your variable
[11:46] <Riddell> or if you want your variable to be a superclass if what you happen to initially assign it
[11:59] <_Sime> you still have the option of explicity specifying the type.
[12:00] <_Sime> oh, I see what you mean about var b;b=100;. That is really just a limitation of MS's spec/implementation.
[12:00] <_Sime> you could make your compilier also handle var b;b=100;