| LaserJock | mdke: I'm so excited about the lulu thing | 12:49 |
|---|---|---|
| === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| mdke | LaserJock, :) | 12:50 |
| mdke | LaserJock, make sure you get your opinion in on all those questions | 01:00 |
| === cyber_cool_cat [n=tweety@217.205.99.11] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| cyber_cool_cat | hello :-) | 01:01 |
| mdke | hi cyber_cool_cat | 01:02 |
| cyber_cool_cat | kinda need some help | 01:02 |
| mdke | cyber_cool_cat, what with? | 01:02 |
| cyber_cool_cat | installed dapper about a month ago on my lappy and everything works fine | 01:02 |
| cyber_cool_cat | except for my bluetooth mouse | 01:03 |
| cyber_cool_cat | no that's unfair the mouse works but the scroll wheel doesn't | 01:03 |
| cyber_cool_cat | it's the microsoft intellimouse explorer for bluetooth | 01:03 |
| mdke | you need #ubuntu for help with Ubuntu | 01:04 |
| mdke | this is for documentation discussion | 01:04 |
| cyber_cool_cat | ooops | 01:04 |
| cyber_cool_cat | sorry | 01:04 |
| mdke | 3~np | 01:04 |
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-130-84-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| cyber_cool_cat | well anyways great distro and keep up the good work (can't wait for edgy) | 01:05 |
| mdke | me neither | 01:09 |
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| LaserJock | mdke: so would we do each guide seperate? or do one big "Ubuntu Documentation Project" book? | 01:13 |
| mdke | separate | 01:14 |
| LaserJock | each with it's own cover art? it might be cool to keep the same theme but tweak just slightly to personalize them | 01:15 |
| === rob looks.. did the books get approved? | ||
| mdke | I would think that it will be best to have the same theme and just change the text, tbh | 01:18 |
| mdke | rob, well, not approved exactly, but jane has no problem with them | 01:20 |
| rob | great :) | 01:20 |
| rob | has anyone spoken to the art team about the cover work yet? | 01:21 |
| mdke | no, we need to answer a few questions first | 01:22 |
| rob | sure, is there anything I could help you answer? | 01:23 |
| mdke | they are more policy decisions, feel free to chip in on the mailing list about them | 01:24 |
| rob | oh, cool I'll take a look (just woke up) | 01:24 |
| mdke | I'm playing with the pdfs atm | 01:24 |
| mdke | I've made some 6x9 inches, it looks ok. desktopguide is 80ish pages | 01:25 |
| rob | hmm.. lulu.com isn't working for me atm | 01:26 |
| mdke | works here | 01:27 |
| rob | oh wait, its working just really slowly for me | 01:27 |
| mdke | http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf | 01:38 |
| mdke | that is 6x9in | 01:38 |
| mdke | the headings need some work | 01:38 |
| rob | grr @ lulu.com.. still isn't fully loaded | 01:39 |
| mdke | aww crap the footnotes are overlapping with the main text, that's rubbish | 01:41 |
| rob | they are? | 01:42 |
| rob | looks ok to me in Evince | 01:42 |
| mdke | some of them are | 01:43 |
| rob | ah I see, page 27 | 01:43 |
| rob | I have 72 pages according to Evince too | 01:44 |
| mdke | yep | 01:44 |
| mdke | ok I've uploaded a new one with some fixes to headings, comments on formatting to the mailing list | 01:46 |
| mdke | night all | 01:46 |
| rob | night mdke | 01:47 |
| rob | hmm its still overlapping on page 27 | 01:48 |
| rob | I'll try it with Adobe proper | 01:49 |
| mdke | yes, I haven't fixed that yet | 01:49 |
| rob | ah ok | 01:49 |
| mdke | also to be fixed: spacing around menus, orphaned section titles | 01:50 |
| rob | overlapping in Adobe proper too :( | 01:50 |
| === mdke goes to sleep | ||
| === Madpilot [n=brian@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| rob | no cloak Madpilot? | 02:02 |
| Madpilot | hostmask? Looks like it's in place | 02:03 |
| rob | didn't kick in before you joined the chan | 02:06 |
| Madpilot | odd - a bit of server delay, I guess | 02:06 |
| Madpilot | XChat running too fast for Freenode to keep up ;) | 02:07 |
| rob | nah, older versions of xchat don't wait to identify with nickserv before joining channels | 02:07 |
| Madpilot | that'd be it - I'm still running Breezy - XChat 2.4.4 | 02:08 |
| rob | wow, the guides will be really cheap though Lulu.. | 02:09 |
| rob | around $6.13 US (before shipping) | 02:10 |
| Madpilot | nice | 02:11 |
| Madpilot | I might fire up Inkscape later and see about roughing out a cover for us | 02:11 |
| Madpilot | I assume Lulu can do full-bleed colour printing? | 02:12 |
| rob | I guess, all the other books on there web site look pretty good | 02:12 |
| Madpilot | was that Russian Gnome book a Lulu product too? | 02:13 |
| rob | if you click on the Browse tab on the Lulu site you can browse all their books which includes pictures of the covers | 02:15 |
| rob | looks like anything you want, one has a photo on it | 02:15 |
| rob | they have more then 6 books though, the rest are in the side menus | 02:15 |
| === `6og [n=kgoetz@ppp223-22.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === `6og is now known as Kamping_Kaiser | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | hi all. how does the docteam generate it's html docs? i was looking at xsl, but the docteams not using that | 02:28 |
| Madpilot | voodoo of some sort ;) | 02:29 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | ah, no wonder i didnt get it ;) | 02:30 |
| Madpilot | seriously, I don't know - Matt East does, though (mdke) | 02:33 |
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| Kamping_Kaiser | ok. i'll hang around (more or less - this connection keeps dying) and see if i can catch hijm | 02:33 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | *him | 02:33 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, how's life on the road in places full of Amurricans? | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | wierd | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | there is some hope for them yet | 02:36 |
| Madpilot | yeah, they're buying Linux :P | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | I heard 3 radio ads about saving energy and saw 6 windmills on the OK/TX border | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | otherwise, it is living large | 02:37 |
| Madpilot | did you rent an SUV again? | 02:37 |
| Burgundavia | no, a KIA | 02:38 |
| Madpilot | yikes! | 02:38 |
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| Kamping_Kaiser | hi rob | 02:41 |
| rob | hi Kamping_Kaiser | 02:41 |
| === KingBahamut [n=bahamut@c-24-98-229-28.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| KingBahamut | evening all | 02:50 |
| rob | hi KingBahamut | 02:50 |
| Madpilot | hi KingBahamut | 02:50 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hi KingBahamut | 02:50 |
| KingBahamut | rob, Madpilot , Kamping_Kaiser , top o the evening to yerselves | 02:50 |
| rob | hmm, I wonder if its worth making the Desktop guide available though Amazon marketplace too, its only $35 to do so.. | 03:05 |
| Madpilot | would that give us worldwide availability? | 03:06 |
| rob | yes | 03:06 |
| rob | I think.. | 03:06 |
| rob | Your book listed in Books In Print, the searchable database that librarians, booksellers, publishers, students, faculty, researchers, library patrons and bookstore customers use to find the exact titles they need, and the Nielsen BookData bibliographic database. | 03:06 |
| rob | I guess so | 03:06 |
| Madpilot | think Mark can afford it? ;) | 03:07 |
| rob | ..one year of placement in the Amazon Marketplace at no extra charge. | 03:07 |
| rob | heh | 03:07 |
| rob | there is a separate "Global Distribution Service" for $150, but thats mainly for distribution to bookstores world wide | 03:08 |
| rob | ooh.. they do Google Book Search too | 03:11 |
| rob | but you have to have paid the $35 | 03:11 |
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| rob | it needs to be at least 81 pages for text to appear on the spine too | 03:15 |
| rob | and be perfect-bound, otherwise it will be saddle-stiched | 03:15 |
| Madpilot | the UDG is currently 80, we can get an extra page or two out of it, I'm sure | 03:16 |
| rob | heh year | 03:16 |
| rob | year | 03:16 |
| rob | bah | 03:16 |
| rob | yeah | 03:16 |
| rob | I'm rather surprised at how cheap it will be | 03:16 |
| rob | I'll probably buy a copy of everything :) | 03:17 |
| rob | Price = Production Cost + Royalty + Lulu Commission (if we wave royalty which we will do, they will wave Lulu commission) | 03:18 |
| LaserJock_away | I had ~3 already want to get a print copy of the Packaging Guide, it would be really cool to have a good looking version | 03:22 |
| rob | I worked out the Desktop guide to be about $6 or something before, plus postage | 03:23 |
| rob | the packaging guide I suspect will be even cheaper | 03:23 |
| LaserJock | the packaging guide is almost the same length as the desktop guide, I think | 03:25 |
| rob | oh.. cool :) | 03:25 |
| LaserJock | but there are a few pages in the appendix that could be shortened for print though | 03:25 |
| rob | its only $0.02 a page | 03:25 |
| rob | not sure if that is double sided page or not | 03:26 |
| LaserJock | unless it is color, is that correct? | 03:26 |
| rob | I suspect not | 03:26 |
| rob | yes, colour is a little bit more per colour page | 03:26 |
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| === Bambi_BOFH [n=kgoetz@ppp223-22.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] | ||
| rob | $0.15 per colour page | 03:27 |
| rob | having a few colour pages wouldn't hurt all that much | 03:28 |
| === kgoetz [n=kgoetz@ppp223-22.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === kgoetz is now known as Kamping_Kaiser | ||
| rob | if the whole 80 pages were colour the book would only come it at $16.53 US | 03:29 |
| Madpilot | I guess we've got to print the entire GFDL & CC:BYSA licences? | 03:29 |
| rob | yes, I guess so | 03:29 |
| LaserJock | or the GPL :( | 03:29 |
| LaserJock | although i think the GPL is shorter | 03:30 |
| Madpilot | well, that'll help keep our page count up, anyway :P | 03:30 |
| rob | heh yeah | 03:30 |
| LaserJock | author bio pages? | 03:30 |
| LaserJock | ;-) | 03:30 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 03:31 |
| rob | the 80 pages includes the licenses by the looks of things anyway | 03:31 |
| rob | there is 16 of us in total, could blow it out :) | 03:32 |
| LaserJock | how do we do the royalties thing? do we have to contact *each* contributor? | 03:34 |
| rob | LaserJock, we simply wave our royalties | 03:35 |
| rob | lulu will wave their royalties in that case too | 03:35 |
| Madpilot | waive | 03:35 |
| LaserJock | yeah, but do we have to get *everybody* to agree | 03:35 |
| rob | yeah, that too Madpilot :) | 03:35 |
| Madpilot | LaserJock, copyright is held by the Doc Team, not by individual contributors | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | ah, cool | 03:36 |
| rob | we can publish using an our normal licenses, so have a quick look at them | 03:36 |
| rob | pretty sure its ok either way | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | I just didn't want to have the whole thing messed up because one or two people don't want to waive | 03:37 |
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-130-84-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | or wave ;) | 03:37 |
| LaserJock | that too :-) | 03:37 |
| === LaserJock waves to everybody | ||
| rob | IANAL but I think we are ok under the CCbySA at least | 03:41 |
| rob | same with the GFDL - as long as we keep a copy with it (IASNAL) | 03:42 |
| rob | we don't require cover texts I think either, so the 100 copy thing is all good | 03:43 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: no, it is not | 03:45 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, what, copyright isn't held by DocTeam? Or? | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | no, the copyright is held by the individual contributors | 03:46 |
| rob | held by the authors | 03:46 |
| Burgundavia | besides, the doc team is not a legal entity and thus cannot hold copyright | 03:46 |
| Madpilot | but does doing this Lulu thing require extra permission from the various authors? | 03:48 |
| rob | Madpilot, no | 03:48 |
| Madpilot | didn't think so | 03:48 |
| Madpilot | I've been messing around in Inkscape: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png | 03:51 |
| Madpilot | thoughts? | 03:55 |
| rob | that looks nice, not sure if I like the bright orange though | 03:55 |
| Madpilot | I was just pulling colours off the Ubuntu palette, easy enough to change any of them | 03:56 |
| rob | check out the book cover sizes at http://tproxy.guardster.com/proxy.php/333000024320ce282929b0d2d72f2f2fd7cb29cd29d54bcecfd5cf48cd29d0cfcc4b49add02bc828b04ff374b1353437320300 | 03:57 |
| rob | sorry about the proxy link, I can't get the lulu.com web site working normally | 03:57 |
| Madpilot | that's supposed to be a 6x9 cover, to match the PDF Matt created | 03:58 |
| rob | they have templates on there | 03:58 |
| rob | crown quarto is a little bigger (which would mean less pages too) | 03:59 |
| rob | but 6x9 is an option too :) | 03:59 |
| Madpilot | need to get food - back later | 04:01 |
| rob | bye | 04:02 |
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| LaserJock | Madpilot: looks nice, just needs to go to orange later :-) | 04:11 |
| rob | what if we replaced the orange with the brown, and replaced the brown with white (and made the bleed later)? | 04:12 |
| LaserJock | perhaps, I'm just not very artistic | 04:13 |
| rob | neither :) | 04:13 |
| LaserJock | I can tell if I like or dislike something, but coming up with an alternative is pretty tough sometimes | 04:13 |
| rob | we should let the art team loose and see what they come up with too | 04:14 |
| LaserJock | yeah, for sure | 04:15 |
| LaserJock | It would be nice to include something uniquely doc team | 04:15 |
| LaserJock | an icon, or something with the colors | 04:16 |
| rob | I think it would be good as a 'community' thing | 04:16 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 04:16 |
| rob | LaserJock, for the icons, yeah | 04:16 |
| rob | heh, no one noticed that I didn't op to ban that guy in #ubunut :) | 04:18 |
| rob | s/#ubunut/#ubuntu | 04:18 |
| LaserJock | I like the emblems on LP, they are kinda cool to see projects and who is active in what area, etc. | 04:19 |
| rob | yep | 04:20 |
| rob | I have like 4 of them now :) | 04:20 |
| LaserJock | I'm up to 6 now :) | 04:21 |
| rob | ooh nice :) | 04:22 |
| LaserJock | https://launchpad.net/people/mantha | 04:22 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | showoffs :/ | 04:22 |
| LaserJock | but my karma still stinks ;-) | 04:22 |
| rob | motu have an icon for everything.. | 04:22 |
| LaserJock | heh, darn right :p | 04:23 |
| LaserJock | 4 of mine are MOTU related | 04:23 |
| rob | whats up with the ubuntu-dev icon, whats that about? | 04:23 |
| LaserJock | those are the MOTU | 04:23 |
| LaserJock | motu (LP) != MOTU | 04:23 |
| rob | where did the icon come from? | 04:24 |
| LaserJock | it is sort of wierd | 04:24 |
| LaserJock | have no idea | 04:24 |
| rob | its like a little red cross thing | 04:24 |
| LaserJock | yeah, maltese cross, it looks like | 04:24 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | maltese cross? | 04:24 |
| Madpilot | Ubunt-dev's logo looks like a Crusading order's symbol ;) | 04:24 |
| rob | https://launchpad.net/people/rob1 | 04:25 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser thought it looked like the Iron cross | ||
| LaserJock | yes, the maltese cross is the sign for the Knights Templar | 04:25 |
| Madpilot | thought it was something like that | 04:25 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hm | 04:25 |
| LaserJock | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templars | 04:27 |
| Madpilot | rob, on the book cover - how about brown below, tan above, and move the fade down a bit? | 04:27 |
| rob | maybe, can you alter it easily? | 04:28 |
| Madpilot | sure - the original is an SVG | 04:28 |
| LaserJock | although the maltese cross looks a bit different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross | 04:28 |
| LaserJock | rob: I love that irc team emblem :-) | 04:29 |
| rob | heh, its the old gnome xchat one I think.. | 04:30 |
| LaserJock | I was trying to figure out some way to join the team just so I'd have that one | 04:30 |
| rob | #ubuntu channel ops | 04:30 |
| rob | kind of made sense that as an ircop here I should be on the #ubuntu channel op team too | 04:31 |
| Madpilot | "those insane enough to voluteer for #ubuntu op" :P | 04:31 |
| LaserJock | yeah, I know. I'll probably never get it :( | 04:31 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | LaserJock: ops? | 04:31 |
| LaserJock | I just can't stand #ubuntu | 04:31 |
| LaserJock | I get a headache | 04:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 04:32 |
| LaserJock | and I'm not helpful :( | 04:32 |
| LaserJock | I don't do anything that people need help on | 04:32 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser tends to help out in #Kubuntu, not #ubuntu | ||
| rob | I just keep an ever watchful eye on it | 04:32 |
| rob | I don't help out that much | 04:33 |
| Madpilot | kickbanning counts as helping, rob | 04:33 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | ++ | 04:33 |
| rob | heh yeah | 04:33 |
| rob | what about klining? :P | 04:33 |
| Madpilot | especially klining | 04:34 |
| rob | I wrote a python script for xchat that allows me to right click -> Quick Kline on a nick/host/ip for 24 hours, evil stuff | 04:35 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser enquires if anyone exept mdke knows about generating html versions of docs | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | rob, so i don't mess you with eh? ;) | 04:36 |
| rob | nah, I'm pretty nice | 04:36 |
| Madpilot | Kamping_Kaiser, he's one of Freenode's admins, so he's got even bigger fangs than us ordinary ops :P | 04:36 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: i know ;) he's a scary type | 04:37 |
| Madpilot | actually, this is not one of the channels I've got ops in - #ubuntu, -offtopic, and a couple of others, but not -doc | 04:37 |
| rob | I just set god mode (+p) on myself, works great for all channels | 04:38 |
| LaserJock | ohh, I just booted into Dapper Beta for the first time after a 2 day struggle to get it installed | 04:39 |
| LaserJock | it is soooo nice | 04:39 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: the commands should be in ubuntu/Makefile | 04:40 |
| rob | yep, I did on my laptop, only thing that annoys me is that totem insists on hiding the top bar thing when you open it up | 04:40 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | it's an amazing change flight* -> beta 1 eh | 04:40 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | LaserJock: thanks, I'll open it up | 04:40 |
| Madpilot | off again - see you all later | 04:40 |
| LaserJock | it is actually the first time ive done a fresh install since ~ September | 04:41 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | later Madpilot | 04:41 |
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| Madpilot | hi all | 05:50 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | wb | 05:50 |
| Madpilot | went to the pool for a bit - well, mostly to the hot tub & sauna... having done 6hrs of landscaping today ;) | 05:51 |
| jsgotangco | wow id love to do something like that now | 05:51 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | wow :o active day | 05:51 |
| jsgotangco | (hot tub and sauna) | 05:51 |
| Madpilot | I was helping a relative in their garden - regular gardening bores me, but landscaping is fun sometimes | 05:52 |
| Madpilot | ripping up grass and replacing it with more interesting things | 05:52 |
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| === kgoetz is now known as Kamping_Kaiser | ||
| robotgeek | howdy Kamping_Kaiser | 06:31 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | gday robotgeek | 06:31 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hows it been? | 06:31 |
| robotgeek | Kamping_Kaiser: good, slightly hectic | 06:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i'm finding that converting docbook to html looks harder then i thought. *puts it off for later* | 06:34 |
| robotgeek | Kamping_Kaiser: xslt proc? | 06:34 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | somehow :/ | 06:35 |
| robotgeek | not that i will have particular insights :) | 06:35 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i opend up the docteams make file and that's freaky | 06:36 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: it isn't too hard is it? | 06:36 |
| robotgeek | Kamping_Kaiser: the trick is to look at one target only | 06:36 |
| robotgeek | ignore the rest, heh | 06:37 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | heh. | 06:37 |
| Madpilot | the real trick is to leave the messy stuff like conversion to other people ;) | 06:37 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol. not a luxury i have i think | 06:38 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: what are you trying to convert? | 06:39 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | LaserJock: some docs i'v written (not for the docteam, but i use your tools :$) | 06:40 |
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| robotgeek | Kamping_Kaiser: eu docs? | 06:41 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | robotgeek: yeh | 06:41 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hi Hobbsee | 06:41 |
| LaserJock | for instance, for the packaging guide: | 06:41 |
| LaserJock | xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam base.dir $(PGBASE)C/ $(UBUNTUCHUNKXSL) ../generic/packagingguide/C/packagingguide.xml | 06:41 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Hobbsee: those who wish to post or speak must answer me these questions 3... | 06:41 |
| Hobbsee | hi Kamping_Kaiser. and tough luck, i'm not answering the questions :P | 06:41 |
| LaserJock | what, is the average airspeed velocity of a cocanut laden swallow? | 06:42 |
| Madpilot | Kamping_Kaiser, African or European, laden or unladen? | 06:42 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Hobbsee: *aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh* | 06:42 |
| Madpilot | LaserJock, great minds run in the same gutters, I see :P | 06:42 |
| robotgeek | hey, that question looks familiar. | 06:42 |
| === Hobbsee hides, not wanting to disrupt the chat. and Madpilot types too fast :P | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 06:42 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser slaps Hobbsee aobut a bit with one of his plaits | ||
| === Hobbsee chops it all off! | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | aaahgagga! | 06:44 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser cries to Laska | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: i'm starting to agree - converting is something you leave to other people | 06:47 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: I think all you need is xsltproc and nwalshes stylesheet | 06:51 |
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| === Kamping_Kaiser checks he has the stylesheet | ||
| Madpilot | alternate book cover for us: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_brown.png | 06:54 |
| Madpilot | my first, for those who missed it a few hours ago: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png | 06:55 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: can you do one in blue too? :) | 06:56 |
| robotgeek | the second one is so much better than the first | 06:57 |
| Madpilot | robotgeek, I can post the SVG and you fire up Inkscape, even | 06:57 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: the packaging guide commands are at http://pastebin.com/676366 | 06:57 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: I am not certain the extra logos are good, but can you try another version with lighter logos? | 06:57 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: i like the first one o_0, just the fade is a bit... short | 06:57 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, yeah, can do | 06:57 |
| Madpilot | man, SVG makes it so easy to tweak this stuff :) | 06:57 |
| Burgundavia | alright, night all | 06:58 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: cool, i'll have to learn Inkscape | 06:58 |
| Madpilot | later Burgundavia | 06:59 |
| robotgeek | i'm very poor at graphics design, really | 06:59 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser can be opinionated, but not productive | ||
| Hobbsee | Madpilot: wow, nice! | 07:01 |
| LaserJock | Kamping_Kaiser: I'm with you ;-) | 07:05 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hehe | 07:06 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_orange2.png <-- lighter single-colour logos, extended fade | 07:06 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser tries to protect his retinas from the bottom half | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: can you put up the svg? | 07:08 |
| Madpilot | sure | 07:08 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.svg | 07:08 |
| Madpilot | that's the orange one, but colour is really easy to change in SVG | 07:09 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | got it thanks | 07:09 |
| Madpilot | so is color, for the Americans present ;) | 07:09 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 07:09 |
| Madpilot | cool, Opera 9beta even displays that SVG properly | 07:10 |
| crimsun | I'm finding I like this 9beta a lot | 07:11 |
| crimsun | I went as far as to purge firefox completely | 07:12 |
| Madpilot | robotgeek, there's a couple of really good Inkscape tutorials out there, and it's a simpler app to use than the GIMP or PS | 07:12 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: hmm, if you say so. i'm doing some python sutff, heh | 07:13 |
| Hobbsee | Madpilot: it requires gnone though :( well, gnome libs | 07:14 |
| === Hobbsee installs anyway :D | ||
| Madpilot | Hobbsee, doesn't everyone run Gnome already? </me ducks> ;) | 07:14 |
| Hobbsee | Madpilot: nope. the only ones who do are crazy. | 07:14 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | it's nice and up to date - 43 is what's tehir latest stable | 07:15 |
| === Hobbsee thwaps Madpilot | ||
| === Kamping_Kaiser slaps Hobbsee about with a Gnome 2.08 desktop | ||
| Hobbsee | ewww. tried that, went back. | 07:16 |
| === robotgeek slaps Kamping_Kaiser and Madpilot with a Kubuntu Dapper Beta | ||
| Hobbsee | hehe | 07:16 |
| Madpilot | hey, I've got piles of KDE libs for Scribus and stuff, so a few Gnome libs are a small price to pay ;) | 07:17 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hehe. i have a stack of KDE stuff here because of all the KDE edu stuff in edubuntu ;) | 07:18 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser declares his screen to small to work on and leaves it to Madpilot | ||
| === Madpilot pats his 19" CRT | ||
| === Kamping_Kaiser eyes off his laptop | ||
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| Madpilot | quick partial hack at a Kubuntu cover: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png | 07:30 |
| Madpilot | I don't have the Kubuntu logos right now | 07:30 |
| Madpilot | but it's very blooooo ;) | 07:31 |
| gaz00 | how does it look with the logo rotated slightly for the non-title (background) ones? | 07:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: and has K's ;) | 07:32 |
| Madpilot | gaz00, you mean a diagonal line of logos? | 07:33 |
| gaz00 | no, still in a vertical line. | 07:33 |
| gaz00 | but i was wondering how it'd look with each copy of the logo exactly where it is, but slightly rotated | 07:33 |
| gaz00 | just a thought :) | 07:34 |
| Madpilot | hmmm - only problem with that is that rotating the logo is one of the things the Ubuntu Trademark Policy forbids | 07:34 |
| gaz00 | Oh. I thought that it was alterations to the logo, and not mentioning that it was TM canonical | 07:35 |
| Madpilot | no, there's a clause in there about proper display of the logo - including the 'no rotation' bit | 07:35 |
| gaz00 | ah! Fair enough. good catch :) | 07:35 |
| gaz00 | http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy | 07:37 |
| gaz00 | hmm. it's not technically modified, but it is scaled. | 07:37 |
| gaz00 | i wouldn't know though | 07:37 |
| gaz00 | so obviously use your best judgement | 07:38 |
| Madpilot | we'd have to get any design OK'd by Canonical anyway - they might veto the single-colour versions of the logos, but I hope not | 07:38 |
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| robotgeek | Madpilot: nice work | 07:43 |
| Madpilot | robotgeek, thnx. | 07:48 |
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| Madpilot | does Kubuntu not use the "Linux for Human Beings" strapline like Ubuntu does? | 09:08 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: feel free to add it in, really | 09:09 |
| Madpilot | ok | 09:09 |
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| Madpilot | robotgeek, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png | 09:59 |
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| poningru | I asked a question couple of days ago and recieved a semi satisfactory answer from Seveas, the question was regarding restricted formats page on the wiki and recomending eu | 10:25 |
| poningru | Madpilot: ping ^^^^ | 10:26 |
| Madpilot | poningru, hi | 10:27 |
| Madpilot | eu = easyubuntu? | 10:27 |
| poningru | yeah | 10:28 |
| poningru | oops my bad | 10:28 |
| Madpilot | poningru, I think a mention of eu would be ok; leave the rest of the instructions in place, though | 10:29 |
| poningru | Seveas was mentioning that we should hold of till eu is stable, which I think it is... | 10:29 |
| poningru | oh ok cool | 10:29 |
| Madpilot | that's just my $0.02, though - someone else might well revert your wiki edit or something | 10:30 |
| poningru | right will fight it on the talk | 10:30 |
| poningru | wait is there even a talk on moinmoin? | 10:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | poningru. | 10:32 |
| poningru | ello | 10:32 |
| Madpilot | poningru, kind of. RestrictedFormats/talk | 10:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | 2 things - one is wait for there to be a deb for kubuntu/ubuntu, and the second is that by recomending EU someone will add AX | 10:33 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | and hi ;) | 10:33 |
| poningru | Kamping_Kaiser: but ax is not really recomended by the community though and eu was originally intended for kubuntu | 10:33 |
| poningru | oh as in a .deb | 10:34 |
| poningru | hmm | 10:34 |
| Madpilot | we've had Autobreakix added & reverted to/from Restricted before - lots of people are subbed to that page | 10:34 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | heh. i'm not supprised | 10:34 |
| poningru | right... but again eu is recommended by the community though as opposed to ax which is looked upon badly | 10:35 |
| Madpilot | the other one that gets odd edits is the FF1.5 page, oddly enough... | 10:35 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | poningru depends what part of the community your in. | 10:35 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: you a wiki junky? | 10:35 |
| poningru | Kamping_Kaiser: the one closer to the devs | 10:35 |
| poningru | Madpilot: the firefox new version? | 10:36 |
| Madpilot | Kamping_Kaiser, I seem to be subb'd to chunks of :P | 10:36 |
| Madpilot | poningru, yes. | 10:36 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol Madpilot | 10:36 |
| poningru | has eu ever showed up on the restricted formats page? | 10:37 |
| Madpilot | Someone removed everything from that page at one point and put "Use Windows, it's easier than this cr*p" instead :P | 10:37 |
| poningru | hehe | 10:37 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol. | 10:37 |
| poningru | hmm perhaps I should put an email out to the devs mailing list and ask if they do recommend eu | 10:38 |
| Madpilot | and no, I don't think eu has appeared on Restricted yet | 10:38 |
| poningru | but yeah you are right eu isnt that easy to use... due to the lack of deb form | 10:40 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser is reminded he has some docs to work on for a certain community app | ||
| Madpilot | I think ax comes in .deb these days, doesn't it? | 10:40 |
| poningru | I think it does | 10:40 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i think so. | 10:40 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | siretart wasnt so nice about it when he went through it (i remember the recent thread on soudner) | 10:41 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | "recent" | 10:41 |
| poningru | yeah | 10:41 |
| poningru | damn it I hate that we dont have official forums | 10:42 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser has never used/downloaded AX, so all his new is third party | ||
| Kamping_Kaiser | yeh, i know :\ | 10:42 |
| poningru | so many forum users telling people to support ax | 10:43 |
| poningru | grr | 10:43 |
| poningru | err use* | 10:43 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser finds the forums quite a different cultural experiance to IRC. should use them more though :/ | ||
| Madpilot | I've seen fewer ax suggestions in the Absolute Beginners forum in the last couple of months, at least | 10:43 |
| poningru | yeah I dont use the forums cause they use vbbulletin | 10:44 |
| poningru | but see I am thinking swallow my principles and use the stupid thing | 10:44 |
| poningru | but then.... my concience gets the better of me | 10:44 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | Madpilot: i have noticed a few clones pop up. or 'quick setup tools' | 10:45 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | everyone has a comment in the thread like "is this the future automatix? cos Arni isnt doing it anymroe" | 10:45 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | *sp | 10:45 |
| Madpilot | ax has been adapted for at least one other distro, too | 10:45 |
| poningru | it has? | 10:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | etch | 10:46 |
| poningru | for debian???? | 10:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i just realised we have Edgy and Debian has Etch... bad move us. | 10:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | yeh | 10:46 |
| poningru | wow thats the last distro I would have expected to have automatix | 10:46 |
| poningru | well maybe not the last but still | 10:46 |
| Madpilot | hmm, one other too - I saw it on one of the *nix news sites I visit | 10:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | if you can handle the Debian installer you can apt-get install good stuff | 10:47 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | <grin> | 10:47 |
| poningru | so arnie did drop ax? | 10:47 |
| poningru | so who is working on it now? | 10:47 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | last i saw he said he was stopping when dapper came out. but i have heard that line before | 10:47 |
| Madpilot | I think he's still developing it - he had a sulk for a while and stopped | 10:47 |
| poningru | hmm someone should persuade him to stop... | 10:48 |
| poningru | is it true you cant use the update manager with it? or synaptic? | 10:48 |
| Madpilot | he's still posting to the ax forum at ubuntuforums, as of 11hrs ago | 10:48 |
| poningru | hmmm | 10:49 |
| Madpilot | poningru, I don't think so - I drop into the ax forums every so often, I think I'd have seen people complaining about ax breaking Synaptic... | 10:50 |
| poningru | hmm ic | 10:50 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i suspect the way it installs packages makes apt throw up | 10:50 |
| Madpilot | it might cause/introduce depend errors, I guess | 10:51 |
| Madpilot | if I had a spare box or spare partition I'd do a clean Breezy install then inflict ax on it, just for practice | 10:51 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | anyone know what repos AX uses? it used to use the plf, but i don't know now | 10:51 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | don't! you might convert ;) | 10:52 |
| Madpilot | unlikely :P | 10:52 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | lol | 10:52 |
| Madpilot | I've seen to many "I ran ax and now..." posts in #ubuntu | 10:52 |
| poningru | hehe yeah | 10:52 |
| Madpilot | I notice there are more "ax broke something" posts in the ax forum these days, too | 10:53 |
| === Kamping_Kaiser wonders how many there will be after people upgrade to dapper | ||
| Madpilot | heh | 10:54 |
| Madpilot | that'll be messy | 10:54 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | it's going to be a full week in #ubuntu | 10:54 |
| Madpilot | is eu going to have a Dapper version out to meet the release date? | 10:54 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | yes. | 10:54 |
| Madpilot | cool | 10:54 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | robotgeek: should be putting final touches afaik. (sorry if I'm dobbing you in robotgeek) | 10:55 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | ah. just found an answer to my question about repos | 10:59 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | he's got a changelog on the forums | 11:00 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | 5.8: d) plf repos removed | 11:00 |
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| Madpilot | hi jsgotangco | 11:27 |
| jsgotangco | yo! | 11:27 |
| Madpilot | jsgotangco, seen the draft covers I mocked up for the Lulu thing? | 11:31 |
| jsgotangco | ive seen one, not all though | 11:32 |
| jeldert | hi guys | 11:34 |
| jeldert | just a quick comment: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ says the documentation will be for 6.04. This should be 6.06 | 11:35 |
| Madpilot | heh. good catch... thanks | 11:35 |
| jeldert | and don't know if your responsible, or can do something about it, but my System > Help > System Documentation doesn't show the guide's anymore | 11:36 |
| jeldert | in Dapper beta | 11:36 |
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| poningru | hmm | 11:38 |
| Madpilot | wasn't there a bug reported about that? | 11:40 |
| Madpilot | I can't find anything in my email, but I think I saw something about the docs in Dapper Beta... | 11:40 |
| jeldert | ok | 11:42 |
| jeldert | i only checked ubuntuforums.org | 11:43 |
| Madpilot | jeldert, have a look in the bug reports: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs | 11:44 |
| Madpilot | I'd look, but I'm off to sleep very, very soon ;) | 11:44 |
| === jsgotangco looks | ||
| jsgotangco | oh its the website | 11:45 |
| Madpilot | hmm? | 11:46 |
| jsgotangco | jeldert: you can just ping mdke for that, he's the one who admins it, its only a a short string | 11:46 |
| mdke | morning | 11:48 |
| jeldert | there he is :) | 11:48 |
| Madpilot | morning mdke | 11:48 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hi jenda , hi mdke | 11:48 |
| mdke | how's it going? | 11:49 |
| mdke | jeldert, I'll change it, thanks | 11:49 |
| jeldert | cool | 11:49 |
| jenda | hey there Kamping_Kaiser, mdke | 11:49 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | :) | 11:49 |
| mdke | Madpilot, I can't put some links in footnotes, and others in the text, it's one or the other, I'm afraid | 11:54 |
| === mdke is slowly reading mails | ||
| Madpilot | mdke, too bad - was afraid of that | 11:54 |
| Madpilot | hmm - could we branch the guides for publishing? | 11:55 |
| jsgotangco | its already branched | 11:55 |
| Madpilot | a new branch for the lulu stuff, I meant - so we can do some edits that would only make sense on paper | 11:56 |
| mdke | hmm | 11:56 |
| mdke | not really | 11:56 |
| mdke | because we'd have to make two translations for everything | 11:56 |
| Madpilot | yeah, that's true... | 11:56 |
| mdke | since we're not publishing it professionally, I think it should be ok just to have them as they are | 11:56 |
| mdke | is there something _really_ bad? | 11:57 |
| Madpilot | not that I saw, in the PDF you produced, except for that one footnote being stepped on by a note | 11:57 |
| mdke | right, hopefully I can figure out how to fix that | 11:58 |
| Madpilot | the rest is just details | 11:58 |
| Madpilot | anyway, I need sleep - suddenly it's 0300 :P | 11:58 |
| mdke | good night | 11:59 |
| Madpilot | later, all | 11:59 |
| jsgotangco | is it valid to have 2 preface blocks? | 12:08 |
| jsgotangco | one for foreword and one for preface itself? | 12:08 |
| mdke | I don't know, there might be a foreword element i guess | 12:10 |
| jsgotangco | there's none | 12:11 |
| jsgotangco | i just wonder how its going to look like when converted | 12:12 |
| jsgotangco | it validates though | 12:12 |
| jsgotangco | heh seems i have no choice | 12:14 |
| mdke | ok I've fixed the orphan problem by making each sect1 start on a new page, the chapter titles get a page to themselves: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf any thoughts? | 12:43 |
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| jsgotangco | good night | 01:13 |
| mdke | night | 01:13 |
| === mdke smells the translations | ||
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| jpatrick | moin | 05:25 |
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| poningru | ok the restricted page has been changed coments por favor | 06:51 |
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| philbull | hi guys | 08:37 |
| philbull | would someone be able to take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicsApplications ? | 08:38 |
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| mdke | it has a lot of very large screenshots :/ | 09:28 |
| mdke | otherwise, looks rather nice | 09:29 |
| mdke | eog could go first, rather than last | 09:30 |
| philbull | hmmm | 09:37 |
| philbull | the screenshots are definitely getting some attention | 09:37 |
| philbull | (too high quality setting) | 09:37 |
| philbull | what do you think of the useful links section? | 09:38 |
| philbull | i could do with a few more | 09:38 |
| mdke | i think it's useful :) | 09:38 |
| philbull | :) | 09:38 |
| mdke | but I'm not a fan of screenshots | 09:39 |
| highvoltage | goodnight! | 09:39 |
| mdke | night highvoltage | 09:39 |
| philbull | night | 09:39 |
| highvoltage | night mdke & philbull | 09:39 |
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| mdke | philbull, a small point: no need to include instructions for starting evince from a terminal, I'd say | 09:40 |
| philbull | how come? | 09:40 |
| mdke | ditto for eog | 09:40 |
| philbull | i think i mention its not normally needed and they open with programs | 09:40 |
| mdke | well, we generally don't like including instructions which require opening a terminal, unless there is a reason to | 09:40 |
| mdke | in this case, ALT F2 is fine | 09:41 |
| philbull | just stick with the alt+F2 method, then? | 09:41 |
| philbull | thanks | 09:41 |
| philbull | now... | 09:41 |
| philbull | are there any apps I've forgotten about? ;) | 09:41 |
| mdke | if it were me, I'd remove instructions about how to install programs too, and just say "INstall package X" | 09:41 |
| philbull | OK | 09:41 |
| mdke | at the worst, you can include a link to a page which says how to install programs using the various methods | 09:41 |
| philbull | the wikitodo page recommended basing it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications, so i tried to follow the style of that | 09:42 |
| mdke | ok, my comment applies to that too then :D | 09:42 |
| philbull | he he | 09:43 |
| philbull | is there a way to escape JoinedWordsLinking? | 09:43 |
| philbull | like with 'ImageMagick'? | 09:43 |
| jpatrick | did my message get to the mailing list? | 09:43 |
| mdke | jpatrick, yes | 09:44 |
| jpatrick | ah good | 09:44 |
| mdke | philbull, Image``Magick | 09:44 |
| mdke | or Image''''''Magick | 09:44 |
| philbull | thanks | 09:44 |
| mdke | jpatrick, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc | 09:45 |
| jpatrick | mdke: I see it now | 09:46 |
| mdke | philbull, thanks a lot for your work on that page, it is really nice | 09:46 |
| philbull | :) | 09:46 |
| philbull | thanks for the suggestions | 09:46 |
| philbull | do you feel up to taking a quick look at another couple i've been working on? | 09:47 |
| mdke | philbull, can you post them to the mailing list? | 09:47 |
| mdke | we need to do a newsletter soon so its good to have references to include somewhere easy | 09:48 |
| philbull | yup, ubuntu-doc? | 09:48 |
| mdke | yes, thanks | 09:48 |
| philbull | i'll try and sort that out tonight | 09:48 |
| philbull | see you later, guys | 10:22 |
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| Madpilot | robotgeek, did you see my proposed Kubuntu Desktop Guide cover? | 11:34 |
| === robotgeek scrolsl up | ||
| mdke | hi Madpilot | 11:34 |
| Madpilot | hi mdke | 11:35 |
| mdke | Madpilot, what do you think about having links in brackets rather than in footnotes? I don't think I can crack the footnote overlapping bug | 11:35 |
| Madpilot | robotgeek, the URL was in one of the emails I sent last night - one sec, I'll dig it out | 11:36 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: got it | 11:36 |
| Madpilot | mdke, sure, if that'll stop that odd bug | 11:36 |
| mdke | it will yeah, although i prefer footnotes :/ | 11:37 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: nice, sweet | 11:37 |
| Madpilot | mdke, so do I, but if they don't work... which PDF creator are you using? | 11:38 |
| mdke | fop | 11:39 |
| mdke | Madpilot, btw, you would probably be interested in vetting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications posted by philbull earlier | 11:39 |
| Madpilot | mdke, yeah, I've seen that before - it's a nice page | 11:41 |
| mdke | ah, i got the impression it was new, np | 11:41 |
| Madpilot | the screenshots on that page are in need of updating, though | 11:43 |
| mdke | yeah, and making smaller | 11:43 |
| Madpilot | esp. once Dapper comes out, Rhythymbox has changed quite a bit, I noticed | 11:43 |
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| mdke | Madpilot, also, i'm doubtful about eliminating widows/orphans in that pdf. Starting each section on its own page helps quite a lot, but lower level sections still tend to orphan a bit and I don't think there is a solution. I'm going to ask on the fop mailing list though | 11:44 |
| Madpilot | cool | 11:45 |
| mdke | meh, I can't believe how complicated this is | 11:46 |
| mdke | why is there no Just Works docbook->pdf | 11:46 |
| robotgeek | mdke: i faced same problem with latex too | 11:47 |
| Madpilot | wonder if we could get Canonical to offer a bounty for one? | 11:47 |
| mdke | that would be cool | 11:47 |
| mdke | i think docbook.sf.net is working on a docbook->latex->pdf thing | 11:47 |
| mdke | no idea how good it is though | 11:47 |
| Madpilot | why the extra step thru latex from docbook? | 11:48 |
| mdke | i dunno, maybe lots of people use latex :D | 11:49 |
| mdke | i didn't read up on it | 11:49 |
| robotgeek | Madpilot: latex is good to ahve around | 11:49 |
| === LaserJock puts up a hand | ||
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| robotgeek | lots of tools, etc | 11:49 |
| Madpilot | yeah, it's been on my "I should look into that" list for a while now | 11:50 |
| robotgeek | i've stopped using latex, xml seems much cleaner to me | 11:51 |
| robotgeek | except for the math part :) | 11:51 |
| robotgeek | maybe mathml or something works | 11:51 |
| === LaserJock will do his dissertation in latex | ||
| === robotgeek already did his thesis in latex, figure and tables are painful | ||
| LaserJock | yes, but my advisor would absolutley kill me if I didn't use it | 11:52 |
| === mdke did his thesis in MS Word | ||
| robotgeek | oh, the rest is awesome | 11:52 |
| mdke | jus kiddin | 11:52 |
| robotgeek | word is really painful with the formatting, sucks | 11:53 |
| mdke | i used openoffice, it works fine | 11:53 |
| LaserJock | yeah, I'd take latex over Word any day | 11:53 |
| mdke | Madpilot, ARGH, urls are so long that they go off the edge of the page on 2 or 3 occasions | 11:54 |
| === robotgeek converted from openoffice to latex :) | ||
| Madpilot | mdke, and no linebreaks possible? | 11:54 |
| mdke | Madpilot, lemme see | 11:54 |
| === mdke pats the internet | ||
| === Madpilot does a lot of his writing in gedit then imports to Scribus :P | ||
| LaserJock | I don't use openoffic for anything much over 1 page, it just gets too messy | 11:55 |
| LaserJock | but then I do more presentations than actual doc writing | 11:56 |
| mdke | i use openoffice for EVERYTHING. | 11:56 |
| === mdke thinks that it is chemistry that is messy, not openoffice :D | ||
| LaserJock | powerpoint (or impress) is now pretty much the only office app I use | 11:57 |
| LaserJock | I don't use Excel and only occasionally Word | 11:57 |
| Madpilot | there's a litte presentation-creator called "pointless" that is pretty cool - it's like handcoding | 11:58 |
| LaserJock | I just basically need something I can put .ps files on and works in Windows | 11:59 |
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