[12:10] hi Burgundavia - how's Oooooklahoma? [12:11] it is a place [12:11] that bad, huh? :P [12:11] hot here [12:11] 25C [12:11] that's not hot [12:11] I stupidly forgot to check the weather before I came, so I am not prepared [12:11] robotgeek: when you come from 5-10C it is [12:12] Burgundavia, actually, it's 17C in Victoria today [12:12] 21 over in Abbotsford, even [12:12] wow [12:13] sorry, weather report says 36C and sunny [12:14] hi Burgundavia [12:14] salut mdke [12:14] Burgundavia, what's the name of the town you're in? [12:14] guymon [12:14] it is in the weather applet [12:14] does anyone have an objection to hyphenating words across lines? [12:14] (for the pdfs) [12:14] http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Guymon,+OK [12:14] KGUY 232153Z AUTO 21013G23KT 10SM CLR 36/M03 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP017 T03561033 $ [12:15] "hot, dry as heck, and cloudless", it looks like [12:15] yep [12:15] windy, too [12:15] I saw 6 wind power generators on the OK/TX border [12:15] mdke: hmm, i thought it was normal to do that? [12:16] apparently they would have more, but don't have the lines to distribute that much enery [12:16] robotgeek, good, good. [12:16] mdke, hypenation is fine [12:17] Madpilot: did you not get my email? [12:18] Burgundavia, the long one? Yes, I did. Good beer, at least? [12:18] yes, that was a good beer [12:18] I have not sampled the beer here [12:18] might be pretty sucky in Ok [12:19] I suspect so [12:19] apparently they do sell soymilk here [12:20] a survey of radio stations: 2 hip hop, 4 regilious, 2 spanish, 3 county [12:20] so you listened to the religious ones, of course, and now know that Jebus luvs you? :P [12:21] apparently so [12:23] what if I don't believe in him? does he still love me? [12:24] yeah, that's the idea === robotgeek got lucky then [12:24] it's not like fairies, that go away when you stop believing in them ;) [12:24] dman [12:24] [12:25] ofcourse, not a topic for ubuntu-doc [12:25] ok, latest offering: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf [12:25] Madpilot, can you scrutinise the fonts? [12:25] I am going to get a Canadian flag and darwin fish in magnetic sticker format for the next trip. Anyway, done now === robotgeek goes to look up on the fish === mdke sighs at fop line breaking in a middle of -> arrors [12:27] mdke, looks great. All we need now are greyscale versions of the admon graphics === robotgeek likes the [links] [12:28] good [12:28] i need to figure out how to do embedded fonts too [12:29] fop doesn't embed fonts automatically/ [12:29] ? [12:29] not the version I'm using anyway [12:29] oh crap, and the bloody section numbers start from zero again for each chapter, which breaks inter-chapter xrefs [12:29] footnotes always restart in each chapter [12:30] that's ok though. [12:30] the problem is where it says "refer to section 6.1", and it means "refer to section 6.1 in the previous chapter, not section 6.1 in this chapter" [12:31] i know, we can add page number cross references === theCore [n=alex@toronto-HSE-ppp4208390.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore__ [n=alex@70.55.133.162] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:03] night all [01:03] night mdke === theCore__ [n=alex@70.55.133.162] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=alex@70.55.133.162] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-151-215.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz_Dinner [n=Elive_us@pc-130-84-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:41] Burgundavia: hi there [01:42] Burgundavia: could you read proof this, please? [01:42] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallingOrBootingUsingIsoFile === mhz_Dinner runs to kitchen to avoid his wife kicks his Chilean ass === mhz_Dinner B back in 1 hour [01:47] mhz_Dinner: cannot do [01:47] can do [01:47] sorry, typo [01:48] mhz_Dinner: ^ === mpt__ [n=mpt@219-89-152-72.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:49] mhz_Dinner: I would explain why you are doing what you are doing before you dive right in === The_thing [n=chatzill@cpe-69-205-189-198.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:01] http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main [02:01] PLEASE!? [02:02] someone with ops please kickban The_thing? He's been spamming everywhere, and won't learn... [02:02] no [02:02] I'm not [02:02] yes you are. go away. [02:02] No [02:03] Lemme guess you vandalize http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main [02:03] I've never even heard of it before you started spamming. Now go away. [02:04] fine === The_thing [n=chatzill@cpe-69-205-189-198.stny.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === The_thing [n=chatzill@cpe-69-205-189-198.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:14] Hello? [02:14] I'm done spamming [02:15] The_thing: thanks === theCore [n=alex@70.55.133.162] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz_Dinner is now known as mhz [03:43] Burgundavia: you think it is not well explained? [03:45] mhz: yes === Kamping_Kaiser [n=kgoetz@ppp228-44.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=alex@toronto-HSE-ppp4205883.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-152-72.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:12] Burgundavia: okis, I have added some clarifications. Could you check, please? [04:40] mhz: that is better [04:41] Burgundavia: thx for your feedback [04:42] mhz: no problem === mhz is now known as mhz_rebooting === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt__ [n=mpt@219-89-152-72.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:35] hi all [06:08] hello Madpilot [06:09] hi - found any good beer in OK? [06:09] nope === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-152-72.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:09] found any beer at all? ;) [06:10] There might still be some dry counties down there - just your luck to be in one of them! :D [06:11] texas is not dry [06:11] texas county, that is [06:12] there is also a canadian county and river here === mpt__ [n=mpt@222-154-152-137.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:45] salut robitaille [06:46] Hi Burgundavia === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-141-214.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [08:47] Madpilot: http://sourceforge.net/projects/openexplore [08:48] cool - bookmarked! [08:51] cool...I always wanted 7 cities of gold since I was a kid, but I actually never played the game [08:52] it is one of those games that has never been done again [08:52] it and mule are the only games I remember and want to play to this day [08:53] to bad all the c64 emulators suck === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-132-30.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:53] my favourite c64 game was "omega race". I wasted many hours on that one [08:53] never played it [08:54] Madpilot: remember that old game we play in SA - death race or something similar? [08:54] http://www.tomheroes.com/Video%20Games%20FS/Retrotimes/Best%20Of/Many%20Faces/omega_race.htm [08:54] yes - land torpedos and similar goofiness [08:55] that would be a good game to redo [08:55] someone redid death rally [08:58] bush may be inpeached apparenty.. === rob realises he knows little about how the US govd' works; [08:59] rob, I seriously doubt it [08:59] http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00294.htm [08:59] impeachment is done by the senate and I think you need a super majority [08:59] there is a new chan on here about it.. [09:00] yeah I would think so Burgundavia [09:00] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States [09:00] wikipedia saves all [09:01] and even if they impeach, it only means they would get CHeney as president in 2 years or so (it's a long process...) [09:01] rob, according to that nz URL, a state senate is involved - AFAIK the states don't have authority like that over the Prez [09:02] yeah, I have no idea how it works, I'll be reading that wiki page soon :) === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-157-151.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:18] need sleep - night, all === lloydinho [n=andreas@rosinante.egmont-kol.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-238-207.nr.ip.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@222-154-113-84.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@host86-129-9-197.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@host86-129-9-197.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-142-251.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-238-242.nr.ip.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-142-251.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Unfrgiven [n=ankur@ubuntu/member/unfrgiven] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@mtngprs7.mtn.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:46] mdke: around? [06:48] jjesse: ping? [06:48] LaserJock, not really, but I will be in about an hour. Email is better until then [06:49] mdke: fine, I was just going to talk to you about bzr. I'll try emailing the list. :-) === LaserJock doesn't care for email [06:53] coz email can't buy you love [07:08] LaserJock: pong [07:09] jjesse: just sent a reply to your bzr email [07:09] jjesse: I think it would be good for us to try [07:09] LaserJock: just saw it [07:09] I think the distributed control would be a big advantage for us [07:11] so instead of having to wait for someone to create username and password it speeds things up? [07:11] no [07:11] what I mean is: [07:11] a person can get the repo and then work on it [07:12] then tell someone here (or on the ML) that they have been working on the PG, for instance [07:12] if they give me the URL of their branch, I can pull in the changes [07:12] no diff, no attaching and waiting on the ML [07:13] if someone doesn't have a website can they just upload their branch? or do you upload to launchpad? [07:13] pardon the stupid questions but just trying to understand :) [07:13] you can either use http or sftp I think [07:13] no, they aren't stupid, I'm very new to this as well [07:14] what concerns me a bit about moving to bzr is that it requires someone to merge everything for each document [07:15] and in a group of full time paid developers, or projects where one developer is in charge of everything, that works well [07:15] but in our group, where everyone kinda chips in on lots of docs, and people come and go according to RL commitments, I think it might get a bit out of control [07:15] but if we set up a central repo then we just do as we are already, I think [07:15] so if i make a change to just a paragraph i have to upload the whole branch instead of just the small change? [07:15] no [07:16] last time I chatted to the bzr guys, support for a central repo ("bound branches") wasn't included yet [07:16] I don't think so anyway [07:16] mdke: I think you can just push to a central place, MOTU do this with tiber.tauware.de [07:16] REVU is done in bzr [07:16] and the central repo is on tiber.tauware.de [07:17] I don't think it is quite a central repo in the traditional sense (whatever that is) === mdke needs to find out a lot more about bzr [07:18] i have to say though, svn diff was a really convenient way of reviewing patches [07:18] you can do that also with bzr [07:18] is moving to bzr a bigger hurdle then using svn for new people? [07:19] I'm really not sure [07:19] I think the distributed revision control is a real advantage for us (I would have really liked it at least) [07:20] why? [07:20] i guess i'm not understanding the why the need to switch either [07:20] (i'm not just challenging you, I am genuinly interested in the reasons) [07:20] I had diff all over the place, and I was the only person that could commit [07:21] if I could just pull for each persons bzr branch (and they could pull from each other), I think that it would have been easier and faster to get diff in [07:21] and did all those people have web servers? [07:21] or do you not need webservers for bzr? [07:21] not necessarily, I think they all did but not sure [07:22] you don't have to [07:22] bbl [07:23] I mean, I'm not sure at all that we should do it. I just see some advantages that I like [07:24] we need to talk to #bzr and other people who have used it for similar tasks [07:26] so for someone like me who is on dial up what is easier to use, svn or bzr? [07:26] i did big updates to svn at work [07:27] hmm, I'm not sure space wise. There seem to be some thing in bzr that can take a while [07:28] jjesse: I think we should just test it out [07:28] do you use bzr for packaging stuff? [07:28] yes [07:28] I'm pretty sure svn just sends compressed diffs - doesn't get more efficient than that [07:28] right [07:35] I'm talking to #bzr a little bit about it [07:43] mdke: bound branches are apparently working in bzr [07:58] jolly good [07:58] but we don't need it I don't think [07:59] I've been talking with #bzr, I try to send a followup email [07:59] what you need for bzr is access to webspace or sftp [08:00] you don't have to control the http server or anything. just copy the folder somewhere === mdke sends off his email [08:11] mdke: I just found the answer to your question ;-) [08:12] LaserJock: what if you don't have access to either? unless we can upload some how to launchpad? [08:13] no webspace or ssh? === mdke hugs jjesse [08:13] you can then send diffs to ML like now [08:13] LaserJock, i suspect the answer is send a diff [08:13] right. [08:13] but I think many people might have access [08:15] anyway, my position is "I'm not convinced, let's try and see" [08:15] however, I'm not going to be able to put in any work on this, because I'll be swamped with translations and pdf stuff for the next month or so [08:15] LaserJock: i don't have a websever or an external box i could put up [08:15] i'm on dial up internet at home and work would frown on it [08:15] jjesse, well... we could use doc.ubuntu.com for that [08:15] yes [08:16] i love the fact that svn up, svn commit, svn diff are easy and i can use subversion on my windows box and linux box :) [08:16] jjesse, me too. [08:16] bzr works on windows, OSX, and linux === jenda [n=jenda@unaffiliated/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:17] and it is bzr pull, bzr commit, bzr diff ;-) [08:17] I think [08:17] LaserJock, do you want to take the lead and do some playing around? I definitely won't have any time [08:17] yeah, I can work on it [08:17] ok [08:18] btw, i succeeded in making some pdfs today with embedded fonts [08:18] the other cool thing about bzr is you work locally [08:18] so do you work locally with svn [08:18] well, I mean you commit locally [08:19] and then publish when you want to [08:19] yeah, but from my perspective that is bad [08:19] because if people get sloppy about publishing, things will go downhill [08:19] if you get 5 people who all work on the same part of a doc, then merges stop working [08:20] not really [08:20] that is the whole point of bzr [08:20] I mean, it is at least better than svn that way [08:20] not to say that if 2 people change the same thing it is magically going to figure what the right answer is ;-) [08:20] right, but with svn, we are forced to always commit, and that way people only rarely get stuck with merging stuff [08:21] if people are sloppy about publishing, god knows how the docbook is going to validate [08:21] well, I think the point with bzr is to make the merging better so that it won't get stuck [08:21] my basic suggestion is that we set up a little test repo [08:21] sure, sure, go for it [08:21] I'm really not sure if bzr would work for us or not [08:21] I haven't used it enough to know [08:22] but I think it is work looking at [08:22] is d.u.c down? [08:22] is it? it was down yesterday [08:23] it might be my network, I'm having lots of problems today [08:23] yeah, still down [08:23] I mailed henrik yesterday about it [08:23] no reply yet tho [08:24] ok, I'll set up a bzr repo of something, might be just one doc (maybe I can try bzrize the desktopguide) [08:24] and we can test it out [08:25] ok [08:25] one big question is whether we are looking at doing separate branches for different docs [08:25] that would be really tricky, I'd be provisionally extremely against the idea :) [08:26] so my pdfs with embedded fonts, after a while I figured out how to do it with fop (it's a total pain) [08:26] yeah, I'm not sure. I'd like to do it but it might be too hard [08:26] I made one, and discovered a bug in poppler that means evince can't read it. [08:27] great. === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:56] can people check out the latest pdf with embedded fonts and lemme know what they think? === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-238-180.nr.ip.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:12] mdke: what is the url again? [09:12] http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide-embedded.pdf [09:12] mdke: btw, my emails are an example of why I disklike email. I'm always waaaay too verbose. [09:13] naahhh [09:14] heh, who uses evince anyway ;-) [09:15] well, Ubuntu uses it [09:15] hopefully they'll fix the bug quickly and we can get it into dapper [09:16] I've never used evince much, last time I used it it so painfully slow [09:16] it looked cool though [09:26] mdke: the fonts don't show up in OSX's pdf viewer (Preview.app) but it looks good in acrobat [09:31] interesting === highvoltage [n=Jono@mtngprs7.mtn.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:46] oh, does anyone have any more thoughts on SIZE of the books? 2 votes for crown quarto (18.9cm x 24.6cm) and 1 for 6x9 (15.24cm x 22.86cm) so far. [10:47] mdke: what is that in inches? ;-) [10:48] 7.44" x 9.68" [10:48] slightly different shape I spose, a bit wider [10:48] might be nicer for the long urls :D [10:48] mdke: i think the perfect bound crown quarto seems best so +1 for me on that [10:49] ok, i've made a pdf for crown quarto too, I'll post it [10:49] +1 for crown quarto from me [10:50] ok, it's at http://mdke.org/ubuntu as usual [10:50] but I don't have much of an opinion on it [10:50] the page numbers come down quite a bit [10:50] mdke: do we need US people to order a test? [10:51] mdke: I didn't quite get why? just speed of delivery? [10:51] it would probably cost less and be quicker [10:51] no biggie, but if you can, that would be good === LaserJock will have to check the budget [10:52] ;-) [10:52] that's ok, I'll pay [10:52] evince doesn't seem to like that one :-/ [10:52] mgalvin, no, fraid not. It can't handle the embedded fonts [10:53] what works? [10:53] oh, well it isn't that much mdke, you really wouldn't need to pay [10:53] acroread works [10:53] LaserJock, it's only a test, I'll pay === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-142-251.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:53] are the fonts too small on the crown quarto one? === mdke hmms [10:53] i might print a page out [11:00] yeah, I think they are too small [11:01] hmm, I didn't think it was too bad, bigger wouldn't hurt though [11:01] i printed a page on A4 (bigger) and they look pretty small [11:01] the icons are too big though, can we get smaller B&W ones? [11:02] yes, smaller definitely [11:02] hmm, i didn't change the font size, I wonder why they are smaller on crown quarto [11:02] or maybe they just look smaller ;) [11:02] they might just look smaller [11:03] let's try 10.5 rather than 10 [11:03] if one can have 10.5 === mdke moves to 11 [11:05] LaserJock, btw, doc.u.c is back [11:06] yeah, just noticed that [11:06] ok, try that pdf [11:06] oh no, that's the same one [11:07] the fonts are the same sized here, btw [11:07] I printed out a 6x9 and crown quarto [11:07] on the right size paper? [11:07] ok, new pdf uploaded [11:08] I printed them on Letter without any scalling, I can overlap words on the two pages and they are the same size [11:08] ok [11:08] but the cq is just wider than the 6x9 [11:08] are they readable? [11:09] do you think the latest one (11) is better? [11:09] yes, but let me try the new one [11:10] also, feedback on margins is good. They are quite small right now [11:13] the 11 is easier on the eyes, feels more like a casual read than a highly technical manual or something [11:14] I can't really say much about the margins when I'm printing on the wrong sized paper :/ [11:14] yeah, fine. Thanks [11:14] but in the .pdf it looks pretty good [11:15] i think this is pretty damn hot [11:15] i need to embed one more font though === mdke goes looking to see if they have replied on the fop mailing list [11:15] mdke: can you install things on doc.u.c? bzr isn't on there [11:16] yes. from the repository? [11:16] yeah, what release is it running? [11:16] 5.10 [11:17] yikes, maybe not then [11:17] it's a bit early for a dist-upgrade on there [11:17] :) [11:17] sorry, I thought bzr on breezy would have been more updated, not yikes that you aren't running Dapper on a server ;-) [11:17] ah, get a deb? [11:19] yeah, I think so. http://bazaar-vcs.org/DistroDownloads has some places to get .debs [11:19] I would sort of prefer jbailey's snapshots [11:20] but I'm not sure if they work on Breezy [11:22] LaserJock, if you ask around and gimme an url, I'll install it [11:23] mdke: k [11:23] damn, fop mailing list draws a dud === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-130-196.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:03] mdke: add "deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./" [12:03] and then "apt-get update && apt-get install bzr bzrtools"