[12:10] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia - how's Oooooklahoma?
[12:11] <Burgundavia> it is a place
[12:11] <Madpilot> that bad, huh? :P
[12:11] <Burgundavia> hot here
[12:11] <Burgundavia> 25C
[12:11] <robotgeek> that's not hot
[12:11] <Burgundavia> I stupidly forgot to check the weather before I came, so I am not prepared
[12:11] <Burgundavia> robotgeek: when you come from 5-10C it is
[12:12] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, actually, it's 17C in Victoria today
[12:12] <Madpilot> 21 over in Abbotsford, even
[12:12] <Burgundavia> wow
[12:13] <Burgundavia> sorry, weather report says 36C and sunny
[12:14] <mdke> hi Burgundavia 
[12:14] <Burgundavia> salut mdke
[12:14] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, what's the name of the town you're in?
[12:14] <Burgundavia> guymon
[12:14] <Burgundavia> it is in the weather applet
[12:14] <mdke> does anyone have an objection to hyphenating words across lines?
[12:14] <mdke> (for the pdfs)
[12:14] <Burgundavia> http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Guymon,+OK
[12:14] <Madpilot> KGUY 232153Z AUTO 21013G23KT 10SM CLR 36/M03 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP017 T03561033 $
[12:15] <Madpilot> "hot, dry as heck, and cloudless", it looks like
[12:15] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:15] <Madpilot> windy, too
[12:15] <Burgundavia> I saw 6 wind power generators on the OK/TX border
[12:15] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, i thought it was normal to do that?
[12:16] <Burgundavia> apparently they would have more, but don't have the lines to distribute that much enery
[12:16] <mdke> robotgeek, good, good.
[12:16] <Madpilot> mdke, hypenation is fine
[12:17] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you not get my email?
[12:18] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, the long one? Yes, I did. Good beer, at least? 
[12:18] <Burgundavia> yes, that was a good beer
[12:18] <Burgundavia> I have not sampled the beer here
[12:18] <robotgeek> might be pretty sucky in Ok
[12:19] <Burgundavia> I suspect so
[12:19] <Burgundavia> apparently they do sell soymilk here
[12:20] <Burgundavia> a survey of radio stations:  2 hip hop, 4 regilious, 2 spanish, 3 county
[12:20] <Madpilot> so you listened to the religious ones, of course, and now know that Jebus luvs you? :P
[12:21] <Burgundavia> apparently so
[12:23] <Burgundavia> what if I don't believe in him? does he still love me?
[12:24] <mdke> yeah, that's the idea
[12:24] <Madpilot> it's not like fairies, that go away when you stop believing in them ;)
[12:24] <Burgundavia> dman
[12:24] <Madpilot> </evil agnostic>
[12:25] <robotgeek> ofcourse, not a topic for ubuntu-doc
[12:25] <mdke> ok, latest offering: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf
[12:25] <mdke> Madpilot, can you scrutinise the fonts?
[12:25] <Burgundavia> I am going to get a Canadian flag and darwin fish in magnetic sticker format for the next trip. Anyway, done now
[12:27] <Madpilot> mdke, looks great. All we need now are greyscale versions of the admon graphics
[12:28] <mdke> good
[12:28] <mdke> i need to figure out how to do embedded fonts too
[12:29] <Madpilot> fop doesn't embed fonts automatically/
[12:29] <Madpilot> ?
[12:29] <mdke> not the version I'm using anyway
[12:29] <mdke> oh crap, and the bloody section numbers start from zero again for each chapter, which breaks inter-chapter xrefs
[12:29] <jjesse> footnotes always restart in each chapter
[12:30] <mdke> that's ok though.
[12:30] <mdke> the problem is where it says "refer to section 6.1", and it means "refer to section 6.1 in the previous chapter, not section 6.1 in this chapter"
[12:31] <mdke> i know, we can add page number cross references
[01:03] <mdke> night all
[01:03] <Madpilot> night mdke 
[01:41] <mhz_Dinner> Burgundavia: hi there
[01:42] <mhz_Dinner> Burgundavia: could you read proof this, please?
[01:42] <mhz_Dinner> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallingOrBootingUsingIsoFile
[01:47] <Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: cannot do
[01:47] <Burgundavia> can do
[01:47] <Burgundavia> sorry, typo
[01:48] <Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: ^
[01:49] <Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: I would explain why you are doing what you are doing before you dive right in
[02:01] <The_thing> http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main
[02:01] <The_thing> PLEASE!?
[02:02] <Madpilot> someone with ops please kickban The_thing? He's been spamming everywhere, and won't learn...
[02:02] <The_thing> no
[02:02] <The_thing> I'm not
[02:02] <Madpilot> yes you are. go away.
[02:02] <The_thing> No
[02:03] <The_thing> Lemme guess you vandalize http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main
[02:03] <Madpilot> I've never even heard of it before you started spamming. Now go away.
[02:04] <The_thing> fine
[02:14] <The_thing> Hello?
[02:14] <The_thing> I'm done spamming
[02:15] <Burgundavia> The_thing: thanks
[03:43] <mhz> Burgundavia: you think it is not well explained?
[03:45] <Burgundavia> mhz: yes
[04:12] <mhz> Burgundavia: okis, I have added some clarifications. Could you check, please?
[04:40] <Burgundavia> mhz: that is better
[04:41] <mhz> Burgundavia: thx for your feedback
[04:42] <Burgundavia> mhz: no problem
[05:35] <Madpilot> hi all
[06:08] <Burgundavia> hello Madpilot
[06:09] <Madpilot> hi - found any good beer in OK?
[06:09] <Burgundavia> nope
[06:09] <Madpilot> found any beer at all? ;)
[06:10] <Madpilot> There might still be some dry counties down there - just your luck to be in one of them! :D
[06:11] <Burgundavia> texas is not dry
[06:11] <Burgundavia> texas county, that is
[06:12] <Burgundavia> there is also a canadian county and river here
[06:45] <Burgundavia> salut robitaille
[06:46] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[08:47] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: http://sourceforge.net/projects/openexplore
[08:48] <Madpilot> cool - bookmarked!
[08:51] <robitaille> cool...I always wanted 7 cities of gold since I was a kid, but I actually never played the game
[08:52] <Burgundavia> it is one of those games that has never been done again
[08:52] <Burgundavia> it and mule are the only games I remember and want to play to this day
[08:53] <Burgundavia> to bad all the c64 emulators suck
[08:53] <robitaille> my  favourite c64 game was "omega race".  I wasted many hours on that one
[08:53] <Burgundavia> never played it
[08:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: remember that old game we play in SA - death race or something similar?
[08:54] <robitaille> http://www.tomheroes.com/Video%20Games%20FS/Retrotimes/Best%20Of/Many%20Faces/omega_race.htm
[08:54] <Madpilot> yes - land torpedos and similar goofiness
[08:55] <Burgundavia> that would be a good game to redo
[08:55] <Burgundavia> someone redid death rally
[08:58] <rob> bush may be inpeached apparenty..
[08:59] <Burgundavia> rob, I seriously doubt it
[08:59] <rob> http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00294.htm
[08:59] <Burgundavia> impeachment is done by the senate and I think you need a super majority
[08:59] <rob> there is a new chan on here about it..
[09:00] <rob> yeah I would think so Burgundavia 
[09:00] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States
[09:00] <Burgundavia> wikipedia saves all
[09:01] <robitaille> and even if they impeach, it only means they would get CHeney as president in 2 years or so (it's a long process...)
[09:01] <Madpilot> rob, according to that nz URL, a state senate is involved - AFAIK the states don't have authority like that over the Prez
[09:02] <rob> yeah, I have no idea how it works, I'll be reading that wiki page soon :)
[10:18] <Madpilot> need sleep - night, all
[06:46] <LaserJock> mdke: around?
[06:48] <LaserJock> jjesse: ping?
[06:48] <mdke> LaserJock, not really, but I will be in about an hour. Email is better until then
[06:49] <LaserJock> mdke: fine, I was just going to talk to you about bzr. I'll try emailing the list. :-)
[06:53] <highvoltage> coz email can't buy you love
[07:08] <jjesse> LaserJock: pong
[07:09] <LaserJock> jjesse: just sent a reply to your bzr email
[07:09] <LaserJock> jjesse: I think it would be good for us to try
[07:09] <jjesse> LaserJock: just saw it
[07:09] <LaserJock> I think the distributed control would be a big advantage for us
[07:11] <jjesse> so instead of having to wait for someone to create username and password it speeds things up?
[07:11] <LaserJock> no
[07:11] <LaserJock> what I mean is:
[07:11] <LaserJock> a person can get the repo and then work on it
[07:12] <LaserJock> then tell someone here (or on the ML) that they have been working on the PG, for instance
[07:12] <LaserJock> if they give me the URL of their branch, I can pull in the changes
[07:12] <LaserJock> no diff, no attaching and waiting on the ML
[07:13] <jjesse> if someone doesn't have a website can they just upload their branch? or do you upload to launchpad?
[07:13] <jjesse> pardon the stupid questions but just trying to understand :)
[07:13] <LaserJock> you can either use http or sftp I think
[07:13] <LaserJock> no, they aren't stupid, I'm very new to this as well
[07:14] <mdke> what concerns me a bit about moving to bzr is that it requires someone to merge everything for each document
[07:15] <mdke> and in a group of full time paid developers, or projects where one developer is in charge of everything, that works well
[07:15] <mdke> but in our group, where everyone kinda chips in on lots of docs, and people come and go according to RL commitments, I think it might get a bit out of control
[07:15] <LaserJock> but if we set up a central repo then we just do as we are already, I think
[07:15] <jjesse> so if i make a change to just a paragraph i have to upload the whole branch instead of just the small change?
[07:15] <LaserJock> no
[07:16] <mdke> last time I chatted to the bzr guys, support for a central repo ("bound branches") wasn't included yet
[07:16] <LaserJock> I don't think so anyway
[07:16] <LaserJock> mdke: I think you can just push to a central place, MOTU do this with tiber.tauware.de
[07:16] <LaserJock> REVU is done in bzr
[07:16] <LaserJock> and the central repo is on tiber.tauware.de
[07:17] <LaserJock> I don't think it is quite a central repo in the traditional sense (whatever that is)
[07:18] <mdke> i have to say though, svn diff was a really convenient way of reviewing patches
[07:18] <LaserJock> you can do that also with bzr
[07:18] <jjesse> is moving to bzr a bigger hurdle then using svn for new people?
[07:19] <LaserJock> I'm really not sure
[07:19] <LaserJock> I think the distributed revision control is a real advantage for us (I would have really liked it at least)
[07:20] <mdke> why?
[07:20] <jjesse> i guess i'm not understanding the why the need to switch either
[07:20] <mdke> (i'm not just challenging you, I am genuinly interested in the reasons)
[07:20] <LaserJock> I had diff all over the place, and I was the only person that could commit
[07:21] <LaserJock> if I could just pull for each persons bzr branch (and they could pull from each other), I think that it would have been easier and faster to get diff in
[07:21] <mdke> and did all those people have web servers?
[07:21] <mdke> or do you not need webservers for bzr?
[07:21] <LaserJock> not necessarily, I think they all did but not sure
[07:22] <LaserJock> you don't have to
[07:22] <mdke> bbl
[07:23] <LaserJock> I mean, I'm not sure at all that we should do it. I just see some advantages that I like
[07:24] <LaserJock> we need to talk to #bzr and other people who have used it for similar tasks
[07:26] <jjesse> so for someone like me who is on dial up what is easier to use, svn or bzr?
[07:26] <jjesse> i did big updates to svn at work
[07:27] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure space wise. There seem to be some thing in bzr that can take a while
[07:28] <LaserJock> jjesse: I think we should just test it out
[07:28] <jjesse> do you use bzr for packaging stuff?
[07:28] <LaserJock> yes
[07:28] <trappist> I'm pretty sure svn just sends compressed diffs - doesn't get more efficient than that
[07:28] <LaserJock> right
[07:35] <LaserJock> I'm talking to #bzr a little bit about it
[07:43] <LaserJock> mdke: bound branches are apparently working in bzr
[07:58] <mdke> jolly good
[07:58] <LaserJock> but we don't need it I don't think
[07:59] <LaserJock> I've been talking with #bzr, I try to send a followup email
[07:59] <LaserJock> what you need for bzr is access to webspace or sftp
[08:00] <LaserJock> you don't have to control the http server or anything. just copy the folder somewhere
[08:11] <LaserJock> mdke: I just found the answer to your question ;-)
[08:12] <jjesse> LaserJock: what if you don't have access to either? unless we can upload some how to launchpad?
[08:13] <LaserJock> no webspace or ssh?
[08:13] <LaserJock> you can then send diffs to ML like now
[08:13] <mdke> LaserJock, i suspect the answer is send a diff
[08:13] <mdke> right.
[08:13] <LaserJock> but I think many people might have access
[08:15] <mdke> anyway, my position is "I'm not convinced, let's try and see"
[08:15] <mdke> however, I'm not going to be able to put in any work on this, because I'll be swamped with translations and pdf stuff for the next month or so
[08:15] <jjesse> LaserJock: i don't have a websever or an external box i could put up
[08:15] <jjesse> i'm on dial up internet at home and work would frown on it
[08:15] <mdke> jjesse, well... we could use doc.ubuntu.com for that
[08:15] <LaserJock> yes
[08:16] <jjesse> i love the fact that svn up, svn commit, svn diff are easy and i can use subversion on my windows box and linux box :)
[08:16] <mdke> jjesse, me too.
[08:16] <LaserJock> bzr works on windows, OSX, and linux
[08:17] <LaserJock> and it is bzr pull, bzr commit, bzr diff ;-)
[08:17] <LaserJock> I think
[08:17] <mdke> LaserJock, do you want to take the lead and do some playing around? I definitely won't have any time
[08:17] <LaserJock> yeah, I can work on it
[08:17] <mdke> ok
[08:18] <mdke> btw, i succeeded in making some pdfs today with embedded fonts
[08:18] <LaserJock> the other cool thing about bzr is you work locally
[08:18] <mdke> so do you work locally with svn
[08:18] <LaserJock> well, I mean you commit locally
[08:19] <LaserJock> and then publish when you want to
[08:19] <mdke> yeah, but from my perspective that is bad
[08:19] <mdke> because if people get sloppy about publishing, things will go downhill
[08:19] <mdke> if you get 5 people who all work on the same part of a doc, then merges stop working
[08:20] <LaserJock> not really
[08:20] <LaserJock> that is the whole point of bzr
[08:20] <LaserJock> I mean, it is at least better than svn that way
[08:20] <LaserJock> not to say that if 2 people change the same thing it is magically going to figure what the right answer is ;-)
[08:20] <mdke> right, but with svn, we are forced to always commit, and that way people only rarely get stuck with merging stuff
[08:21] <mdke> if people are sloppy about publishing, god knows how the docbook is going to validate
[08:21] <LaserJock> well, I think the point with bzr is to make the merging better so that it won't get stuck
[08:21] <LaserJock> my basic suggestion is that we set up a little test repo
[08:21] <mdke> sure, sure, go for it
[08:21] <LaserJock> I'm really not sure if bzr would work for us or not
[08:21] <LaserJock> I haven't used it enough to know
[08:22] <LaserJock> but I think it is work looking at
[08:22] <LaserJock> is d.u.c down?
[08:22] <mdke> is it? it was down yesterday
[08:23] <LaserJock> it might be my network, I'm having lots of problems today
[08:23] <mdke> yeah, still down
[08:23] <mdke> I mailed henrik yesterday about it
[08:23] <mdke> no reply yet tho
[08:24] <LaserJock> ok, I'll set up a bzr repo of something, might be just one doc (maybe I can try bzrize the desktopguide)
[08:24] <LaserJock> and we can test it out
[08:25] <mdke> ok
[08:25] <mdke> one big question is whether we are looking at doing separate branches for different docs
[08:25] <mdke> that would be really tricky, I'd be provisionally extremely against the idea :)
[08:26] <mdke> so my pdfs with embedded fonts, after a while I figured out how to do it with fop (it's a total pain)
[08:26] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm not sure. I'd like to do it but it might be too hard
[08:26] <mdke> I made one, and discovered a bug in poppler that means evince can't read it.
[08:27] <mdke> great.
[08:56] <mdke> can people check out the latest pdf with embedded fonts and lemme know what they think?
[09:12] <LaserJock> mdke: what is the url again?
[09:12] <mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide-embedded.pdf
[09:12] <LaserJock> mdke: btw, my emails are an example of why I disklike email. I'm always waaaay too verbose.
[09:13] <mdke> naahhh
[09:14] <LaserJock> heh, who uses evince anyway ;-)
[09:15] <mdke> well, Ubuntu uses it
[09:15] <mdke> hopefully they'll fix the bug quickly and we can get it into dapper
[09:16] <LaserJock> I've never used evince much, last time I used it it so painfully slow
[09:16] <LaserJock> it looked cool though
[09:26] <LaserJock> mdke: the fonts don't show up in OSX's pdf viewer (Preview.app) but it looks good in acrobat
[09:31] <mdke> interesting
[10:46] <mdke> oh, does anyone have any more thoughts on SIZE of the books? 2 votes for crown quarto (18.9cm x 24.6cm) and 1 for 6x9 (15.24cm x 22.86cm) so far.
[10:47] <LaserJock> mdke: what is that in inches? ;-)
[10:48] <mdke> 7.44" x 9.68"
[10:48] <mdke> slightly different shape I spose, a bit wider
[10:48] <mdke> might be nicer for the long urls :D
[10:48] <mgalvin> mdke: i think the perfect bound crown quarto seems best so +1 for me on that
[10:49] <mdke> ok, i've made a pdf for crown quarto too, I'll post it
[10:49] <LaserJock> +1 for crown quarto from me
[10:50] <mdke> ok, it's at http://mdke.org/ubuntu as usual
[10:50] <LaserJock> but I  don't have much of an opinion on it
[10:50] <mdke> the page numbers come down quite a bit
[10:50] <LaserJock> mdke: do we need US people to order a test?
[10:51] <LaserJock> mdke: I didn't quite get why? just speed of delivery?
[10:51] <mdke> it would probably cost less and be quicker
[10:51] <mdke> no biggie, but if you can, that would be good
[10:52] <LaserJock> ;-)
[10:52] <mdke> that's ok, I'll pay
[10:52] <mgalvin> evince doesn't seem to like that one :-/
[10:52] <mdke> mgalvin, no, fraid not. It can't handle the embedded fonts
[10:53] <mgalvin> what works?
[10:53] <LaserJock> oh, well it isn't that much mdke, you really wouldn't need to pay
[10:53] <mdke> acroread works
[10:53] <mdke> LaserJock, it's only a test, I'll pay
[10:53] <mdke> are the fonts too small on the crown quarto one?
[10:53] <mdke> i might print a page out
[11:00] <mdke> yeah, I think they are too small
[11:01] <LaserJock> hmm, I didn't think it was too bad, bigger wouldn't hurt though
[11:01] <mdke> i printed a page on A4 (bigger) and they look pretty small
[11:01] <LaserJock> the icons are too big though, can we get smaller B&W ones?
[11:02] <mdke> yes, smaller definitely
[11:02] <mdke> hmm, i didn't change the font size, I wonder why they are smaller on crown quarto
[11:02] <mdke> or maybe they just look smaller ;)
[11:02] <LaserJock> they might just look smaller
[11:03] <mdke> let's try 10.5 rather than 10
[11:03] <mdke> if one can have 10.5
[11:05] <mdke> LaserJock, btw, doc.u.c is back
[11:06] <LaserJock> yeah, just noticed that
[11:06] <mdke> ok, try that pdf
[11:06] <mdke> oh no, that's the same one
[11:07] <LaserJock> the fonts are the same sized here, btw
[11:07] <LaserJock> I printed out a 6x9 and crown quarto
[11:07] <mdke> on the right size paper?
[11:07] <mdke> ok, new pdf uploaded
[11:08] <LaserJock> I printed them on Letter without any scalling, I can overlap words on the two pages and they are the same size
[11:08] <mdke> ok
[11:08] <LaserJock> but the cq is just wider than the 6x9
[11:08] <mdke> are they readable?
[11:09] <mdke> do you think the latest one (11) is better?
[11:09] <LaserJock> yes, but let me try the new one
[11:10] <mdke> also, feedback on margins is good. They are quite small right now
[11:13] <LaserJock> the 11 is easier on the eyes, feels more like a casual read than a highly technical manual or something
[11:14] <LaserJock> I can't really say much about the margins when I'm printing on the wrong sized paper :/
[11:14] <mdke> yeah, fine. Thanks
[11:14] <LaserJock> but in the .pdf it looks pretty good
[11:15] <mdke> i think this is pretty damn hot
[11:15] <mdke> i need to embed one more font though
[11:15] <LaserJock> mdke: can you install things on doc.u.c? bzr isn't on there
[11:16] <mdke> yes. from the repository?
[11:16] <LaserJock> yeah, what release is it running?
[11:16] <mdke> 5.10
[11:17] <LaserJock> yikes, maybe not then
[11:17] <mdke> it's a bit early for a dist-upgrade on there
[11:17] <mdke> :)
[11:17] <LaserJock> sorry, I thought bzr on breezy would have been more updated, not yikes that you aren't running Dapper on a server ;-)
[11:17] <mdke> ah, get a deb?
[11:19] <LaserJock> yeah, I think so. http://bazaar-vcs.org/DistroDownloads has some places to get .debs
[11:19] <LaserJock> I would sort of prefer jbailey's snapshots
[11:20] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if they work on Breezy
[11:22] <mdke> LaserJock, if you ask around and gimme an url, I'll install it
[11:23] <LaserJock> mdke: k
[11:23] <mdke> damn, fop mailing list draws a dud
[12:03] <LaserJock> mdke: add "deb  http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./"
[12:03] <LaserJock> and then "apt-get update && apt-get install bzr bzrtools"