[12:04] <mdke> alright, done
[12:06] <mdke> LaserJock, do you need anything else?
[12:06] <LaserJock> well not at the moment, but lifeless is holding my hand through some thought experiments
[12:06] <mdke> great
[12:07] <LaserJock> I think we will want to move a directory into /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/ perhaps
[12:07] <mdke> doesn't it do ssh?
[12:08] <LaserJock> yes, but I was wanting it to be publically available for download, but maybe we just want to have the tarball checkout for that
[12:08] <mdke> oh yeah, doh
[12:08] <mdke> let's do that now, shall we?
[12:32] <LaserJock> mdke: what do you think, should I put the current svn repo on LP?
[12:32] <mdke> LaserJock, no, I think we should play around on doc.u.c first
[12:32] <LaserJock> ok
[12:32] <mdke> you?
[12:33] <LaserJock> that's fine, although it looks like a nice option
[12:33] <mdke> all these branches flying around scare me
[12:33] <LaserJock> but to be honest I don't know if we are ready for bzr yet
[12:34] <LaserJock> mdke: well, it would only be one branch
[12:36] <LaserJock> mdke: ok, so if you mv /home/laserjock/public_html/ubuntu-doc-bzr into /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ and chown it to bzrgrp
[12:37] <mdke> you want it as bzr/ubuntu-doc-bzr?
[12:38] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess just bzr/ would work
[12:39] <mdke> ok
[12:41] <mdke> what owner?
[12:41] <LaserJock> umm, I guess <you>:bzrgrp
[12:42] <mdke> ok, i did ubuntu-doc
[12:42] <LaserJock> is ubuntu-doc a part of hte bzrgrp group?
[12:43] <LaserJock> or will that matter?
[12:43] <mdke> no, and no (I think)
[12:43] <LaserJock> as you can tell, I'm no sys admin
[12:43] <mdke> me neither
[12:43] <LaserJock> blind leading the blind?
[12:44] <LaserJock> ok, let me see if I can checkout and send changes
[12:45] <mdke> you'll want permission, hang onm
[12:47] <mdke> ok
[12:47] <mdke> is 775 the right permissions?
[12:49] <LaserJock> looks good to me
[01:47] <mdke> LaserJock, how's it going?
[02:04] <mdke> -> bed
[02:14] <LaserJock> mdke: just trying to resolve ssh key issues :(
[02:52] <rob> hmm, how did you guys get the docteam coffee thing on the forums?
[02:53] <robotgeek> docteam cofee?
[02:55] <LaserJock> yeah, what?
[02:56] <rob> you know how the forum has a coffee thing on the side (based on how many posts you do I think)
[02:57] <rob> a few people here have that, how does one acquire that?
[02:57] <LaserJock> rob: I think you have to make posts :-)
[02:57] <rob> heh, I just signed up an account on there!
[02:58] <rob> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123836
[02:58] <rob> look at the right hand side bits of each post
[03:02] <LaserJock> oh yeah, the ubuntu doc team bit
[03:04] <LaserJock> I don't have that :'(
[03:19] <klepas> moin
[03:19] <klepas> heard you folks are after someone to do a bunch of covers
[03:20] <robotgeek> klepas: yes, for the desktop guides which are going be be available to be purchased in print
[03:21] <klepas> mhh
[03:21] <klepas> cool
[03:21] <robotgeek> also server and packageing guides
[03:21] <rob> deadline?
[03:21] <klepas> ja
[03:21] <rob> nothing has been set yet
[03:21] <klepas> well when do you guys need this by
[03:21] <klepas> latest
[03:22] <rob> we want to make all the translations available too, so it will take a while for that to get done
[03:22] <klepas> because i have my hands full in the immediate future, about a week
[03:22] <robotgeek> Madpilot here did a few things, maybe better to talk with him too?
[03:23] <klepas> SURE
[03:23] <klepas> ack, caps
[03:23] <rob> robotgeek, I gave him a couple of links, but yes madpilot was our guy who did that :)
[03:24] <rob> klepas, there are also some templates on the lulu.com website (which isn't working for me otherwise I'd get you the links)
[03:24] <rob> for size etc
[03:24] <rob> we are looking at crown quarto for the size
[03:26] <rob> klepas, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-April/001180.html
[03:26] <rob> email from matt
[03:40] <klepas> checking it out now
[03:41] <klepas> could i get some ratios/height-width measurements?
[03:41] <klepas> for the cover
[03:44] <LaserJock> 7.44" x 9.68" is crown quarto
[03:45] <LaserJock> or 18.9cm x 24.6cm if you are so inclined :-)
[03:45] <klepas> thanks
[03:46] <klepas> i've got an idea for this
[03:46] <klepas> though it would follow some of the ideas that the GDM theme uses
[03:46] <klepas> and is generally appreciated higher up for official things
[06:28] <KingBahamut> evening all
[06:33] <LaserJock_away> mdke: got bzr to work, it's sorta slow, but it works
[07:01] <Madpilot> Burgundavia_, ping
[07:04] <Burgundavia_> Madpilot: pong
[07:04] <Madpilot> how's things in OK?
[07:04] <Madpilot> which centre of culture are you in tonight?
[07:04] <Burgundavia_> Guthrie, just north of OK city
[07:05] <Burgundavia_> was in Woodward today
[07:05] <Madpilot> how are the demos going?
[07:13] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png <-- Kubuntu DG cover in white/pale blue, instead of dark blue/light blue
[07:17] <Madpilot> evening robitaille 
[07:17] <robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
[07:18] <robitaille> I'm reading the blog of the latest Canonical employee:  http://sfllaw.livejournal.com/
[07:22] <Madpilot> "Shaving? Do I have to shave if I work from home?" - hehe
[07:23] <crimsun> ah yes, he's in Montreal
[07:24] <robitaille> it will be nice to finally have a full-time person doing QA stuff
[07:25] <Madpilot> fewer complaints from the bughunters when you ping one of your older bugs to see if a known fix has been committed yet - maybe... :P
[07:40] <Madpilot> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1759298,00.html
[07:58] <LaserJock_away> Madpilot: there was someone from -artwork here earlier
[07:59] <LaserJock_away> Madpilot: klepas was the nick. They were going to do some covers
[08:01] <Madpilot> interesting - thanks, LaserJock_away 
[08:01] <Madpilot> klepas, ping?
[08:07] <Burgundavia_> Madpilot: that tank link is insane
[08:07] <Madpilot> cool, isn't it?
[08:07] <Madpilot> hmm, there's no #ubuntu-art channel...
[08:07] <Burgundavia_> artwork
[08:07] <Burgundavia_> we should probably get -art to redirect to -artwork
[08:08] <Burgundavia_> anyway, I need to sleep, is 1am here
[08:08] <Madpilot> you two hours ahead of us? Thought it was just 1hr?
[08:48] <klepas> Madpilot: pong
[08:54] <klepas> Madpilot: i've got to run, going home from the office.
[08:55] <klepas> i shall be on later this evening/today
[08:55] <klepas> give it a few hours
[08:55] <klepas> :)
[09:06] <mdke> Madpilot, very nice
[09:28] <mdke> Madpilot, I think we can remove the document-specific text from the covers
[09:29] <mdke> lulu can get it from the book title, that way you don't have to make a new cover for every book/translation
[09:30] <mdke> but we'd need to check that it will put it in the right place
[09:40] <mdke> afk
[09:45] <Madpilot> mdke, was AFK - shutting down now - I'll change the covers tomorrow, if Lulu can do the titles at that end
[09:45] <Madpilot> later, all
[06:14] <mdke> evening all
[06:22] <jsgotangco> hi
[06:22] <jsgotangco> its already dawn here heh
[06:23] <mdke> doing an all nighter?
[06:24] <jsgotangco> nahh its only 12:30am just closing some xorg bugs
[06:48] <LaserJock> hi mdke 
[06:50] <mdke> hi LaserJock 
[06:50] <jjesse> afternoon all :)
[06:51] <LaserJock> I got my stupid ssh key issue figured out
[06:51] <mdke> ssh keys are the bomb
[06:51] <LaserJock> so I was able to do a bzr checkout, added a file, and did a commit
[06:51] <LaserJock> and it worked like svn
[06:52] <mdke> it seems that Lulu don't support multiple licenses... I'm trying to convince them to add it
[06:53] <LaserJock> it takes a loong time to do the checkout, but once you do you have the entire repo history locally, and it doesn't seem to take up much space
[06:53] <mdke> that sounds like svn
[06:56] <LaserJock> well, with svn you have to connect to the server to get the history
[06:57] <mdke> ah, the entire repo history eh? Is that useful?
[06:58] <LaserJock> yeah, it means you can work locally for basically everythin
[06:59] <LaserJock> it means you only connect to the server when you are commiting, more or less
[06:59] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: yeah the first checkout is really sllloooowwwwww
[06:59] <mdke> isn't that the case with svn too?
[06:59] <mdke> I onyl connect to the server when committing in svn, too
[06:59] <LaserJock> no, if you want to look at a particular revision perhaps
[06:59] <LaserJock> you have to talk to the server with svn
[06:59] <LaserJock> if you don't have it cached
[06:59] <mdke> yes, but I don't think I've ever wanted to do that
[07:00] <LaserJock> right
[07:00] <mdke> except for looking at commit mail, I guess
[07:01] <LaserJock> an advantage for non-doc members (ie. branch not checkout) is they can commit locally
[07:01] <LaserJock> so they can have revision control while they are working
[07:01] <LaserJock> and then send a diff or push their branch when they are done
[07:02] <mdke> right
[07:02] <LaserJock> at this point my issues with bzr are the speed
[07:02] <jeffsch> my understanding is that you work locally, making all the commits you want, then
[07:02] <LaserJock> jeffsch: unless you do a bzr checkout (new in 0.8)
[07:02] <jeffsch> when you are ready, you publish it all on a webserver somewhere
[07:03] <jeffsch> all the commits are to your local copy though, right?
[07:03] <LaserJock> no
[07:03] <LaserJock> not with checkout
[07:03] <jeffsch> ok, but can you still work locally and still keep version control?
[07:03] <jjesse> is bzr checkout just like svn checkout?  if so why the need to swtich?
[07:04] <mdke> but it's coooooool
[07:04] <LaserJock> my thought was to perhaps have docteam members use bzr checkout (which would be more or less like svn co)
[07:04] <jjesse> mdke: cooool doesn't mean we have to change :)
[07:05] <LaserJock> but non-docteam members would use the "traditional" bzr approach and push their changes to a server
[07:05] <mdke> no, but cooooooool does
[07:05] <LaserJock> that then the docteam members can merge and commit
[07:05] <mdke> what's wrong with the speed?
[07:06] <LaserJock> honestly, my current opinion is that we should test and watch bzr for edgy but not move (if ever) until edgy+1
[07:06] <mdke> we can keep playing
[07:06] <jeffsch> if i do a bzr checkout, can i work on say, the desktopguide while not connected to the net and still have revision control on the commits that
[07:06] <LaserJock> mdke: well bzr branch seems slow currently (I timed it 4 times slower than svn co)
[07:07] <LaserJock> jeffsch: no, you would want bzr branch for that
[07:07] <jeffsch> i make to my local copy?
[07:07] <trappist> my opinion is that svn is how god intended us to work, and that if we move to bzr I'll grudgingly live with it
[07:07] <LaserJock> lol
[07:07] <mdke> haha
[07:08] <LaserJock> well, I'm no bzr diehard, I use it for packaging where I do all my work locally
[07:08] <jeffsch> ok, so i branch desktopguide, make commits offline, then push them to the bzr server on d.u.c?
[07:09] <LaserJock> jeffsch: bzr checkout, branch our checkout locally, work on it offline, merge back in and commit when you are online again
[07:10] <LaserJock> a cool thing, IMO, with bzr is that all you need is the directory, we can distribute the repo as a tarball
[07:10] <LaserJock> people can download it and untar it and they have the whole repo, history and all
[07:10] <LaserJock> or you can use rsync
[07:12] <jeffsch> can we tarball our svn repos with the same results?
[07:12] <LaserJock> not sure
[07:12] <LaserJock> you would you do a checkout?
[07:13] <LaserJock> s/you/how/
[07:13] <jeffsch> i think svn tracks everything in a .svn folder, one for each directory
[07:14] <jeffsch> bzr does it similar, but with only on .bzr folder at the top of the hierarchy
[07:14] <LaserJock> yeah, but I'm not sure you can just untar it and then commit, I could be wrong
[07:14] <jeffsch> yeah, there might be some machine-specific or other local-specific stuff in the .svn folder
[07:15] <LaserJock> since bzr isn't tied to a repo you just tell it where you want it to go
[07:16] <jeffsch> it's not tied to a repo if we use it in a distributed fashion
[07:16] <LaserJock> right
[07:16] <jeffsch> if we use it with a central repo on d.u.c. it will be different
[07:16] <LaserJock> so it seems to me right now, functionally, you get the best of both worlds with bzr
[07:16] <LaserJock> you can use svn-like checkout or the distributed branch
[07:17] <jeffsch> so only docteam members will have push rights to d.u.c, others must have us pull their changes from some public space
[07:17] <LaserJock> my issues right now are speed (maybe it isn't a problem, but it could be) and having to have non-docteam members have a place to publish branches
[07:18] <jeffsch> bzr can't import diffs from email?
[07:21] <LaserJock> jeffsch: it can but that sort of defeats the purpose of being able to merge branches
[07:21] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: the pqmbot takes care of that no?
[07:21] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: takes care of what?
[07:22] <jsgotangco> who to allow to merge/push
[07:23] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes, although we have done it for now with just giving doc-team members rw access to the repo
[07:23] <jsgotangco> ah right
[07:23] <LaserJock> I'm more concerned about the non-docteam members
[07:24] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: they could always branch from our sources from svn, after all its public
[07:25] <LaserJock> I'd like to have people email me "Heah laserjock, if got a cool new section for the packaging guide, my branch is at htttp://xyz.com/coolpatch"
[07:25] <LaserJock> then I can bzr merge http://xyz.com/coolpatch
[07:25] <jsgotangco> yeah
[07:25] <jeffsch> LaserJock: what if you get 10 emails like that, and 4 of the merges conflict?
[07:26] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
[07:26] <LaserJock> bzr is smart
[07:26] <jsgotangco> good night
[07:26] <LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
[07:27] <jeffsch> not smart enough to choose my "can't" over someone elses "can not"
[07:27] <jeffsch> you still have to decide whether or not to keep the appostrophe version
[07:27] <LaserJock> sure
[07:27] <jeffsch> that's the kind of conflict I'm talking about
[07:27] <LaserJock> well, that will occur no matter what we do
[07:28] <jeffsch> in svn, conflict resolution is distributed
[07:28] <jeffsch> svn won't let you commit without resolving conflicts
[07:28] <jeffsch> in bzr, conflict resolution is centralized
[07:28] <jeffsch> the guy at the top must resolve all conflicts himself
[07:29] <LaserJock> ok, I gotta go. I'll be back in ~30 min.
[07:29] <LaserJock> I think we should test some of this out
[07:29] <jeffsch> definitely
[07:32] <dsas> is there a test bzr repo i can branch from?
[07:35] <jeffsch> yeah, there's one on docteam.ubuntu.com, but i don't know where exactly yet
[07:36] <jeffsch> ask LaserJock when he comes back, or mdke if he
[07:36] <jeffsch> 's around
[07:36] <jeffsch> oops
[07:40] <trappist> so what does bzr do with conflicts it can't resolve?
[07:44] <dsas> it makes two files iirc, one called BASE, one called HEAD. not sure what they do
[07:45] <jeffsch> trappist: http://bazaar-vcs.org/IntroductionToBzr#head-3c92313cdbc6d0b648fb742a98ada0d38e043ef7
[07:46] <trappist> I do think I like svn's behavior better than that
[07:47] <trappist> to the extent that it's different
[07:49] <jeffsch> if bzr will allow us to create better docs faster and with fewer errors, then I'm all for it
[07:49] <jeffsch> otherwise, there's no point in switching
[07:53] <LaserJock> jeffsch: I agree
[07:54] <LaserJock> dsas: the current URL to branch from is http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/
[07:54] <dsas> LaserJock: thanks
[07:54] <LaserJock> jeffsch: my interest was 2 things:
[07:55] <LaserJock> 1) possible splitting up the current svn trunk into branches (common, ubuntu, kubuntu, generic, etc.) so that people don't have to get the whole thing just to work on one doc
[07:55] <LaserJock> 2) making it easier for non-docteam members to contribute
[07:55] <LaserJock> and I'm currently not convinced of both
[07:57] <trappist> they both sound pretty great - I don't see why svn couldn't handle the first one though
[07:57] <LaserJock> I don't think that it was  so much a matter of svn couldn't but maybe bzr would handle it better
[07:59] <LaserJock> I think bzr is still so much in development that I bet by the time we get to Edgy+1 it will be significantly faster and more stable
[08:01] <LaserJock> jeffsch: do you need the url for pushing changes?
[08:02] <jeffsch> yeah... http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ is not it?
[08:02] <LaserJock> jeffsch: you can't push there I don't think
[08:02] <LaserJock> jeffsch: I think you need sftp to publish
[08:03] <LaserJock> jeffsch: or am I wrong
[08:03] <jeffsch> you need sftp to "bzr push sftp://blah.blah.com/whatever"
[08:04] <jeffsch> but you can also use rsync
[08:06] <LaserJock> jeffsch: so you will need sftp://<username>@doc.ubuntu.com/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ I think
[08:06] <jeffsch> ok, thanks. I will try it later... kinda busy on something else right now
[08:07] <LaserJock> jeffsch: me too
[11:36] <mdke> evening
[11:36] <LaserJock> hi mdke 
[11:36] <mdke> how's it going?
[11:38] <LaserJock> pretty good, trying to get some research done today
[11:42] <mdke> ah, real life eh?
[11:43] <LaserJock> yeah, but I talked with jeffsch this morning about bzr and I got an upload in too. :-)