[12:36] <mdke> LaserJock, the book has been shipped
[12:37] <LaserJock> mdke: beautiful
[12:40] <mdke> LaserJock, didn't I order it only yesterday? That's fricking fast
[12:40] <LaserJock> mdke: yes, it is
[12:40] <mdke> cool
[12:53] <LaserJock> mdke: playing -devel police again? ;-)
[12:53] <mdke> tell me I'm wrong
[12:53] <mdke> those goddam spammers
[12:55] <LaserJock> it is amazing how fast a converstation can spiral down into a grudge match
[12:55] <mdke> yeah
[12:55] <mdke> it is a good time to propose my mailing list guidelines
[12:57] <LaserJock> one of the reasons I don't like MLs so much is then tend to be combative and I never really know if what I'm saying is OT or not. They seem to have no rules other than what somebody flames you about.
[12:57] <mdke> tell me what you think of these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Listiquette?action=show
[12:59] <LaserJock> that stupid ReplyTo-List thing always gets me
[12:59] <LaserJock> I've never used an email client that had it :(
[12:59] <mdke> you suck!
[01:00] <mdke> your punishment for using a sucky email client is to manually edit the reply fields
[01:00] <LaserJock> I've used Gmail, Thunderbird, and pine
[01:00] <LaserJock> I think they are fairly standard
[01:01] <mdke> well, reply-to-all is certainly not the right way to do it
[01:01] <LaserJock> I don't understand why they don't have a ReplyTo-List, it makes perfect sense to me
[01:01] <mdke> I'm happy to set reply-to fields for mailing lists, but replying to all is horrible
[01:02] <LaserJock> yeah, I have to remember to adjust *every* email :(
[01:02] <LaserJock> I like the page though.
[01:03] <LaserJock> The only thing that I think needs work after that page is the list descriptions
[01:04] <mdke> you mean on https://lists.ubuntu.com ?
[01:04] <LaserJock> ubuntu-devel is "Ubuntu Developer Discussion"
[01:04] <LaserJock> yeah
[01:04] <mdke> yes, that's a very good point
[01:04] <LaserJock> that is one of my biggest problems is I think people don't really understand the purpose of the lists
[01:05] <LaserJock> man, I need to stop editing my sentences half way through
[01:06] <LaserJock> I think a lot of people would take ubuntu-devel to be about anything about dapper
[01:06] <mdke> yes
[01:07] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat has some good info
[01:08] <LaserJock> maybe if the descriptions had a bit more to them
[01:08] <mdke> I agree, absolutely
[01:11] <LaserJock> do maybe we should have a UbuntuMailingList page similar to that IRC or make a page that includes both (so you get the channel and ML)
[01:11] <mdke> these things should all be on the website anyway, rather than the wiki, IMO
[01:12] <LaserJock> yes, yes. I agree. I just don't know how they would get done
[01:12] <mdke> well, we will be getting a new webmaster soon, they will no doubt wish to tackle the website structure
[01:13] <LaserJock> who is the current webmaster? henrick?
[01:13] <mdke> henrik, yes
[01:15] <LaserJock> are any doc team members Canonical employees?
[01:16] <mdke> well, it depends what you mean by members
[01:16] <mdke> henrik and mpt are employees, and are fairly active
[01:16] <mdke> no one with commit access though
[01:17] <LaserJock> ah
[01:17] <LaserJock> I'm always curious to see who is a Canonical person and who isn't.
[01:17] <mdke> heh
[01:18] <mdke> you have to become a Canonical employee to find out, like the Masons
[01:18] <LaserJock> in MOTU I think we only have 1 or 2
[01:18] <LaserJock> heh
[01:18] <LaserJock> I could always ping sabdfl and ask him ;-)
[01:18] <mdke> in fact even they don't know all the time
[01:18] <LaserJock> I bet
[01:19] <LaserJock> well, I know there is a new QA person in Montreal
[01:20] <mdke> yes
[01:20] <LaserJock> but with this Kubuntu-de stuff I got to wondering what people Canonical had working on Ubuntu
[01:21] <mdke> there must be about 10 of em, I guess
[01:22] <LaserJock> I would think mostly in the core-dev area
[01:23] <mdke> well, every canonical person working on Ubuntu is in the core-dev area, by definition, I'd say
[01:24] <LaserJock> perhaps
[01:24] <mdke> well, maybe not jdub
[01:25] <LaserJock> it gets pretty muddy for me though. like JaneW
[01:25] <LaserJock> she is in the ubuntu-drivers team
[01:25] <LaserJock> which makes sense
[01:25] <mdke> yah, good point
[01:26] <LaserJock> it would be fun to see an organizational chart, but don't think I can expect that from a business
[01:26] <LaserJock> I don't know that they usually publish such things
[01:27] <mdke> probly not
[01:28] <LaserJock> hmm, sometimes I wish we could do bans/kicks on MLs ;-)
[01:29] <LaserJock> I'd probably get banned if we could so I better shut up
[01:30] <mdke> heh
[01:31] <LaserJock> I just sent an email to edubuntu-devel. Hopefully it is ok.
[01:32] <LaserJock> they are looking to start an edubuntu council to approve members (I think Kubuntu is doing something similar)
[01:32] <mdke> interesting
[01:33] <mdke> I hope it sticks to members, and doesn't decentralise anything else from the regular CC
[01:33] <LaserJock> at this point no, but I'm not sure in the futur after Mark's Kubuntu email
[01:33] <LaserJock> I don't see why Edubuntu would need to
[01:33] <mdke> ok, bed for me
[01:34] <mdke> night
[01:34] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[01:34] <LaserJock> mdke: you did the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, right?
[01:53] <jsgAFK> hey klepas 
[01:55] <klepas> moin
[01:57] <LaserJock> hi klepas and jsgAFK 
[01:59] <jsgAFK> hey
[02:21] <klepas> moin moin
[02:21] <klepas> what's doing?
[02:21] <robotgeek> howdy klepas 
[02:55] <mpt> mdke, it's no secret that Canonical has about 50 employees <http://www.digitalsy.org.uk/eskillsdocs/Ubuntu%20Presentation.pdf>, of which about 20 work on Ubuntu and 1 works on Kubuntu
[02:57] <mpt> and from attending the Launchpad meetings you can see that there are about 15 of us in the Launchpad team
[03:33] <jsgotangco> heh i couldnt scrollback in irssi i dunno what's the fuss
[03:33] <jsgotangco> mpt: yeah and there are a good number of admin and business development people too not really visible on irc
[03:34] <mpt> yes
[03:35] <Burgundavia> what are we talking about?
[03:35] <mpt> Canonical employees, Burgundavia 
[03:35] <Burgundavia> ah
[03:36] <Burgundavia> yes, malcolm and janes are not on irc at all
[03:36] <mpt> They are, just not on public channels
[03:36] <Burgundavia> ah, they are on #canonical?
[04:45] <Burgundavia> mdke: did you see that flashplugin-nonfree seems to be fixed?
[04:47] <crimsun> yes, the previous fubar is my fault, sorry.
[04:53] <Burgundavia> crimsun: that you are working on it is good. thanks
[06:21] <Madpilot> hi all
[06:21] <klepas> ahoy
[06:21] <Madpilot> hi klepas 
[06:23] <Madpilot> klepas, have you see the mockup Matt East did of the covers w/ Lulu's automatic handling of titles?
[06:24] <klepas> no
[06:24] <Madpilot> just a sec, I'll put it up on the web
[06:24] <klepas> thanks :)
[06:25] <Madpilot> it's... not as nice as I'd hoped it would be - but we need the automated title generation for for all the translated versions
[06:25] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/289954_cover_large.jpg
[06:26] <Madpilot> getting rid of the text I added is easy enough, I'm just not too happy with the placement of what Lulu's added
[06:36] <Madpilot> klepas, just for comparision, here's the cover page at full size and before Lulu dumps stuff on it: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png
[06:56] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, flaky hotel wireless?
[06:57] <Burgundavia> no, crashy beta install
[06:57] <Burgundavia> it can only be a bad install, to explain all the random errors I came getting
[06:59] <Madpilot> or you've dropped your laptop once too often :P
[07:00] <klepas> ah, crud.
[07:00] <klepas> severe lag
[07:00] <robitaille> did the laptop got x-rayed at an airport recently?
[07:00] <klepas> sorry
[07:00] <Burgundavia> robitaille: no, I teleported to OK...
[07:00] <klepas> Madpilot: i had some different ideas
[07:00] <Burgundavia> the crashiness happened the night before I left
[07:00] <klepas> i'll send them to you soon
[07:00] <klepas> give me another day or so
[07:01] <Burgundavia> ;)
[07:01] <Madpilot> klepas, sure - do you want me to put the SVGs of my work up? (it's all done in Inkscape so far)
[07:03] <Burgundavia> wow, hotel television has 4 different channels filled with gov't people babbing on, including cpan and cpan2
[07:03] <robotgeek> usually the most uninteresting thing going on
[07:03] <robotgeek> sometimes can be interesting though :P
[07:04] <Burgundavia> actually right now senate digital committee is talking about sateillite radio and licensing costs
[07:05] <Madpilot> and whether Howard Stern should be censored on sat radio too? :P
[07:05] <Burgundavia> no, just licensing on XM and Sirius
[07:14] <Madpilot> wow, big SVGs eat RAM - I was up to 94% usage, 6% cache, with four of the big covers open at once in Inkscape...
[07:14] <Madpilot> that's 94% of 1Gb, too...
[07:27] <Burgundavia> ok, US senators are morons. They are going to remove the right to time shift
[07:27] <Burgundavia> the xm guy is arguing that the ipod or xm receiver is no different then a vcr or a tape deck, which nobody else in the room seems to get
[07:28] <klepas> Madpilot: sure
[07:30] <Madpilot> klepas, just a moment
[07:32] <Burgundavia> night all
[07:33] <Madpilot> night Burgundavia 
[07:33] <Madpilot> klepas - and anyone else interested: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_SVG/
[07:36] <klepas> what i have in mind is quite different
[07:38] <Madpilot> klepas, cool - get some mockups together - are you on the docteam's mailing list?
[07:39] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, before you go: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/piratead/CEA_ad.png
[07:39] <klepas> Madpilot: yes
[07:40] <klepas> but far away from home at the moment
[07:40] <klepas> i don't have access to the email account i use for the mailing lists
[07:40] <Madpilot> klepas, I don't think there's any massive hurry - we've still got a month before Dapper releases, after all
[07:40] <klepas> sure
[07:41] <klepas> well i get back on Saturday
[07:41] <klepas> i've got some other deadlines though before then and right after
[07:41] <klepas> so you're looking at maybe a week
[08:36] <robotgeek> poningru: you added EasyUbuntu to the wiki page on restricted formats
[08:37] <robotgeek> poningru: that's a bad thing to do, as Easyubuntu is definetly not ready/safe/etc to be recommended on that page
[08:37] <robotgeek> as one of the primary developers on EasyUbuntu, i know :P
[09:12] <mdke> morning
[09:12] <robotgeek> morning mdke 
[09:12] <Madpilot> hi mdke 
[09:12] <mdke> Madpilot, you think we need to use automatic title generation for the covers?
[09:13] <Madpilot> mdke, if we want to have all the translations available to publish, I think we do - hopefully they can be made less ugly, though...
[09:14] <mdke> well, I'd envisage only publishing the complete translations, dunno how many there will be
[09:14] <mdke> a fair number
[09:14] <mdke> but we can't change what lulu does with the text at all, I think, certainly not in terms of position
[09:14] <Madpilot> too bad
[09:14] <mdke> so if we want any control, we need to do the text ourselves
[09:17] <mdke> mpt, wow, as much as 20. Cool. However "1 works on kubuntu" isn't right at all, because all developers who don't work on gnome also work on kubuntu
[09:18] <Madpilot> hmm - anyone know enough scripting to change SVGs with some semi-automatic tool? They are ultimately XML, after all, and I think inkscape can produce PNGs from SVGs from the command line...
[09:19] <robotgeek> Madpilot: what you need?
[09:19] <Madpilot> robotgeek, I'm imagining some way of getting nice looking translated covers for the Lulu printing
[09:20] <mpt> mdke, only in the same sense that they "work on" Xubuntu
[09:20] <mpt> Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc benefit from their work, certainly
[09:20] <mpt> Actually, ogra works specifically on Edubuntu as well
[09:20] <mdke> mpt, yes, in that sense.
[09:20] <Madpilot> robotgeek, something that takes the translated strings from our docbook xml, sticks it into the SVG, then outputs a PNG from the SVG for lulu to use...
[09:21] <mdke> mpt, that's the same sense in which they work on Ubuntu, too
[09:21] <robotgeek> Madpilot: only for the title?
[09:22] <Madpilot> robotgeek, title of each guide, and translation of "Ubuntu Documentation Team" - that's all that is on the covers, currently
[09:26] <mpt> mdke, I think most of them would disagree, but I haven't asked them.
[09:29] <mdke> Madpilot, how long does it take to change the text manually?
[09:30] <Madpilot> mdke, not long, but if we've got six guides in dozens of translations each, that adds up
[09:30] <mdke> well, 4 guides
[09:31] <mdke> but i have to get those translations manually anyway when uploading the book, so.
[09:32] <robotgeek> Madpilot: i'll try and see if i can whip up a python script tommorow, gotta hit bed now
[09:32] <Madpilot> robotgeek, that would be cool - talk to you later
[09:32] <Madpilot> mdke, how much of the translation -> Lulu process is actually manual right now?
[09:33] <mdke> Madpilot, well, since it is a web dialogue, it is all manual
[09:33] <mdke> you go through various steps uploading the files and inserting descriptions and so on
[09:37] <mdke> Madpilot, did I understand the question right?
[09:38] <Madpilot> yeah - was afk for a moment
[09:40] <Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
[09:40] <Madpilot> that's why I was wondering about some sort of scripting for it
[09:46] <Madpilot> when did you drop off?
[09:46] <mdke> "was afk for a moment"
[09:46] <Madpilot> big netsplit
[09:46] <Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
[09:46] <Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
[09:48] <mdke> yes
[09:48] <mdke> Madpilot, about the trimming at the top: is it tricky to move the logos down a bit?
[09:50] <mdke> it's a small point
[09:51] <mdke> gtg, see ya later
[09:51] <Madpilot_> gah - got disconnected somehow in that netsplit...
[05:55] <mdke> evening
[06:12] <keith> does anyone know the default CUPS admin id and password?  root and it's password does not work
[06:13] <keith> running 5.10
[06:13] <mdke> keith, you might try #ubuntu for support questions
[06:13] <mdke> or the forums/wiki etc
[06:13] <keith> thanks
[06:13] <keith> if I find it, it should be documented
[06:13] <keith> later....
[07:05] <LaserJock> morning doc people
[07:07] <mdke> morning laserman
[07:08] <LaserJock> did I miss a doc team meeting recently?
[07:08] <mdke> no, we haven't had one for ages
[07:10] <LaserJock> ok, I've been so busy that I have forgotten to check the fridge for a while
[09:51] <mdke> jjesse: ping
[09:52] <jjesse> mdke: pong :)
[09:53] <mdke> jjesse: I can't send you emails so I couldn't reply to you today
[09:53] <jjesse> mdke: just to me?
[09:53] <jjesse> problems sending meail
[09:53] <mdke> yeah, they come back
[09:53] <mdke> jjesse: to log on, do "ssh doc.ubuntu.com" then enter your password
[09:53] <jjesse> mdke: wierd i'll look into it, wondered why my email was so slow :(
[09:54] <mdke> it has happened to me twice now in the last couple of weeks
[09:55] <mdke> change the password to something reasonably secure after you login with the command "passwd"
[09:57] <LaserJock> hurry jjesse hurry, before the MS spies get in! ;-)
[09:58] <jjesse> lol :)
[09:59] <LaserJock> they know that we hold the secrets to Bug #1 ;-)
[09:59] <jjesse> mdke: thanks got it
[10:00] <LaserJock> mdke: should I send an email to bzrgrp members to tell them how to get the repo etc.
[10:00] <jjesse> now all i need to figure out how to check things out :)
[10:00] <LaserJock> lol
[10:01] <LaserJock> jjesse: what version of bzr do you have?
[10:02] <jjesse> should it be bzr ng?
[10:02] <jjesse> 0.8pre
[10:02] <LaserJock> no bazaar-ng is bzr, regular old bazaar is call baz, I think
[10:03] <LaserJock> jjesse: ok, so you can use the repo in 2 different ways, one that is svn-like (with bzr checkout) and one that is bzr-like (bzr branch)
[10:03] <LaserJock> jjesse: are you doing this over dialup?
[10:04] <jjesse> LaserJock: currently at work
[10:04] <jjesse> t-1
[10:05] <LaserJock> ok, I was going to say that you could also download a tarball of the repo, but it is still 57MB
[10:07] <LaserJock> jjesse: the fastest way to get a branch right now is to just rsync it
[10:07] <LaserJock> the location is /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/
[10:08] <jjesse> just type bzr branch /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ?
[10:12] <LaserJock> jjesse: umm, to start with try bzr branch sftp://<username>@doc.ubuntu.com/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr
[10:12] <LaserJock> ack, but that might not work because of a password bug in bzr if you don't have ssh keys set up
[10:13] <LaserJock> for the slowest, but surest method just do bzr branch http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr
[10:15] <LaserJock> or faster would be rsync -avrz -e "ssh" ubuntu-doc-bzr <username>@doc.ubuntu.com:/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/
[10:16] <LaserJock> one of the problems I see right now with bzr is that there are soo many ways of doing basically the same thing
[10:18] <jjesse> best place to learn about setting up ssh keys?
[10:19] <jjesse> hmm cause bzr branch sftp://jjesse@doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr asks for a password but displays it in clear text?
[10:19] <LaserJock> jjesse: yeah, that is a bzr bug ATM
[10:20] <LaserJock> jjesse: I used http://www.arches.uga.edu/~pkeck/ssh/ for help with setting up ssh key
[10:20] <LaserJock> jjesse: I did that yesterday :-)
[10:20] <mdke> also wiki:SSHHowto
[10:20] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah maybe some links to some bzr4newbies docs
[10:21] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, unfortunately most of all the docs I could find were about using bzr locally
[10:21] <LaserJock> mdke: I'll try to scare some up and send an email out with as much info as I can find, or maybe a wiki page might be better
[10:22] <mdke> coolio
[10:23] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't really see any docs on the wiki about bzr usage
[10:24] <jjesse> maybe on the launchpad wiki?
[10:24] <LaserJock> I know that bazaar-vcs.org has a wiki, but it isn't exactly the most user friendly in my experience
[10:24] <mdke> they have their own wiki
[10:24] <LaserJock> it seems to be more for their development use than for users to some degree
[10:24] <mdke> if it isn't user friendly, you should tell jblack, I think it's his job
[10:24] <LaserJock> a lot of the pages don't apply to the current versions
[10:26] <LaserJock> and some of the newer features don't seem to be on there, and as I said before, most of it seems to be geared towards local use
[10:29] <LaserJock> jjesse: the fastest way to get the branch if you want to do that (instead of the checkout) would be to do the rsync
[11:50] <mdke> LaserJock: btw you haven't replied to the patch email from jpatrick yet, at least on list
[11:51] <LaserJock> mdke: ah, thanks for reminding me. I talked to him on irc but maybe I should send an email also
[11:52] <LaserJock> I'd like to get people thinking about what they want to do with the PG and forumlate a plan before we start sending diffs
[11:53] <mdke> sure, I'm not sure if he was aware of string freeze or not
[11:53] <LaserJock> mdke: I think so, I think he was starting on edgy ;-)
[11:54] <mdke> cool, good enthusiasm :)
[11:54] <mdke> ooh
[11:54] <mdke> fullscreen gnome-terminal is cool
[11:54] <LaserJock> yeah, with the PG it is hard because all the devs were working hard when we were trying to do the docs
[11:54] <LaserJock> so it was hard to get help
[11:55] <mdke> yeah, understood
[11:55] <LaserJock> mdke: how so?
[11:55] <mdke> well, it's just cool
[11:55] <mdke> i use irssi for irc, and having it in full screen is great
[11:55] <LaserJock> heh, welcome to my world
[11:55] <mdke> i'll do a screenie
[11:56] <mdke> http://mdke.org/images/gnome-terminal.png
[11:56] <LaserJock> anymore I just live in terminals, screen, irssi, mutt, chroots/pbuilder for building packages, vim for editing stuff
[11:56] <mdke> and I can just keep one workspace completely like this, and flick into it with alt+ctrl mmmmm
[11:56] <mdke> no panels, no window bars, great
[11:56] <LaserJock> yep
[11:57] <mdke> and gnome-terminal is so much faster now, thank god
[11:57] <LaserJock> I haven't gone to full screen yet on my iMac because there aren't different desktops  :(
[11:58] <LaserJock> mdke: is that the default irssi theme?
[11:58] <mdke> yes, with the occasional tweak
[11:58] <mdke> i played with the statusbar a bit
[11:58] <LaserJock> i've been trying to find a good theme
[12:01] <LaserJock> If I can only get mutt working (or rather me working with mutt) then I'd be set
[12:02] <LaserJock> well, I'd probably use it if I was ever actually at my Ubuntu box :(
[12:02] <LaserJock> heh
[12:03] <LaserJock> I actually got my Ubuntu box at home set up with Dapper Beta on a clean hard drive