[12:04] <mdke> WaterSevenUb: yes. Did you see my email about it on rosetta-users?
[12:07] <LaserJock> mdke: bah, I just dump u-d-c to a folder ;-)
[12:07] <WaterSevenUb> mdke, aah, great ;) thx. It's amazing how a thing reaches rosetta and after a few minutes there are already dozens of translations :)
[12:07] <mdke> WaterSevenUb: have people been translating that template?
[12:08] <mdke> LaserJock: you still have to download it >_M
[12:08] <mdke> hmm, interesting smiley
[12:08] <WaterSevenUb> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/website-index/
[12:08] <WaterSevenUb> according to this, there editions today so it seems so
[12:08] <WaterSevenUb> -there are editions-
[12:09] <mdke> oh well.
[12:10] <WaterSevenUb> :)
[12:11] <WaterSevenUb> have a good night.
[12:11] <mdke> you too
[12:15] <LaserJock> mdke: uni lines are good for that sort of thing :-)
[12:15] <mdke> oh yeah, can imagine
[12:16] <LaserJock> mdke: do you think I should fix mistakes that I found in the book
[12:16] <mdke> LaserJock: if they are significant, definitely. sooner the better
[12:16] <mgalvin> LaserJock: did you ever happen to take a pic of the lulu book?
[12:17] <LaserJock> mgalvin: yes, though it is a bit of a story
[12:17] <LaserJock> mgalvin: I took a picture of the cover and I was going to scan some of the pages to show margins, etc.
[12:17] <LaserJock> but I haven't had a chance to set up  scanning or my digital camera in Ubuntu yet
[12:18] <mgalvin> ah
[12:18] <LaserJock> and my Windows XP partition was having a Activation problem since I swapped out motherboards
[12:18] <LaserJock> so I ended up calling MS (ugghhh) and got XP activated again
[12:18] <mgalvin> my camera "just works" when i plug it in
[12:19] <mgalvin> that sucks
[12:19] <LaserJock> but I also had a lot  of house projects to do. I had to put in new flooring and a new dishwasher last night
[12:19] <mgalvin> i hear that!
[12:19] <mgalvin> no worries...
[12:19] <LaserJock> sooo, hopefully I'll have the pics up for you guys soon. I am working on it
[12:19] <mgalvin> was just wondering, no rush or anything
[12:19] <mgalvin> cool
[12:20] <LaserJock> it is actually bigger than I thought it would be
[12:20] <mgalvin> how many pages?
[12:21] <LaserJock> I would say it could go 6x9 except the width is nice for code (lots of that in the packaging guide) and it might be easier on the eyes to have more text/line
[12:21] <LaserJock> mgalvin: 72 including GPL license
[12:21] <LaserJock> GPL is 9 pages
[12:21] <LaserJock> but the printing looks nice. The only real problem is those admon icons
[12:22] <LaserJock> I couldn't even tell what they were
[12:22] <mgalvin> ah, there must be some better ones around we could use
[12:22] <LaserJock> I think it might be just a dpi issue
[12:23] <mgalvin> maybe even the ones in dive into python
[12:23] <mgalvin> true
[12:26] <mdke> I need to figure out how resolution works on these pdfs
[12:26] <mdke> it's a bit complicated, hopefully we'll figure it out
[12:27] <LaserJock> mdke: it sure seems like the conversion to pdf is much more difficult than it should be
[12:28] <mdke> yes. It's fairly annoying
[12:28] <mdke> that last commit message is the amount of new translations on the packaging guide
[12:29] <LaserJock> wow, nice
[12:30] <LaserJock> umm, so what happens to incomplete translations?
[12:30] <LaserJock> do we just ship what has been done and the rest of it is in English?
[12:31] <mdke> yes
[12:31] <LaserJock> that has got to look odd :-)
[12:31] <mdke> yes, it probably does
[12:32] <LaserJock> hmm, I would have thought German would have been farther along
[12:33] <LaserJock> mdke: have you seen any other ways of making pdfs other than fop?
[12:33] <LaserJock> or is it just the standard
[12:34] <mdke> I haven't really investigated, tbh
[12:34] <mdke> there are a few others, nothing really very well developed, apart from fop, I think
[12:34] <mdke> fop is really quite good.
[12:37] <LaserJock> it's just a matter of learning it enough to tweak it right?
[12:39] <mdke> yeah, seems to be
[12:39] <mdke> there is quite a lot of xsl to be done, and some fop configuration
[12:39] <LaserJock> mdke: are those in the repo or on doc.ubuntu.com?
[12:40] <mdke> in branches/dapper/libs/pdf
[12:43] <LaserJock> hmm, that does look like quite a bit of work
[12:43] <mdke> it's not so bad. the xsl is pretty similar to the xsl we use for building html
[12:47] <LaserJock> ah, well I haven't done any xsl work yet so it looks pretty complicated to me :-)
[12:50] <LaserJock> I'm reading this article on the science of scientific writing, it has some pretty useful things about doc writing
[12:51] <LaserJock> I can already see things I can apply to the packaging guide
[12:53] <mdke> cool
[02:09] <welshbyte> hello
[04:04] <LaserJock> hi welshbyte 
[04:05] <welshbyte> oh, almost forgot i was here. are you interested in minor errors in man pages here or is that a package specific thing?
[04:07] <LaserJock> welshbyte: that would be a package specific thing.
[04:07] <welshbyte> okie dokie, thanks :)
[04:08] <LaserJock> welshbyte: no problem
[03:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
[04:06] <mdke> jsgotangco: hi.
[04:08] <jsgotangco> mdke: how did you go about with the firefox startpage translations?
[04:10] <mdke> jsgotangco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation
[04:10] <jsgotangco> thanks
[04:11] <mdke> jsgotangco: why do you ask?
[04:11] <jsgotangco> mdke: Edubuntu
[04:11] <mdke> jsgotangco: please don't change anything without speaking to Ian, if you change something you might break them all. He took care of the changes to all derivatives as a result of that
[04:12] <mdke> ogra is in the loop though
[04:12] <jsgotangco> I'm not going to break the whole distro again ;)
[04:13] <jsgotangco> pretty much aware of what Diziet has done though
[04:13] <mdke> it's unlikely that touching edubuntu-artwork would do that, but i think it is possible
[04:13] <jsgotangco> we'll take note
[04:14] <mdke> best is to let ian take care of it himself if you want to change something
[04:14] <jsgotangco> gotcha
[04:14] <mdke> no one will understand the system as well as him
[08:28] <LaserJock> jjesse: ping?
[08:45] <LaserJock> mdke: are you going to be in Paris?
[08:45] <mdke> LaserJock: pretty unlikely, tbh.
[08:46] <Burgwork> nor will I, I just realized
[08:46] <Burgwork> can't get the time off
[08:46] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm. I was wondering how many doc people were going to make it
[08:46] <mdke> gah. No docteam, no party
[08:46] <LaserJock> I see that jjesse applied for sponsorship
[08:46] <mdke> ah good.
[08:46] <mdke> I might be able to make a weekend or so, dunno
[08:46] <LaserJock> I was thinking about it
[08:47] <Burgwork> ticket prices are about twice what they are in april
[08:47] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how long it would take to know if I was sponsored. I can't make it if I'm not.
[08:51] <LaserJock> I think I might hold off for another time when more doc people can go. I'd really like to meet you guys.
[08:51] <Burgwork> I will defintely be at the edgy+1 conference
[08:51] <Burgwork> better time of the year for me, and much cheaper
[08:52] <LaserJock> how are doc specs going to be handled? I really wasn't around much for UBZ
[08:52] <mdke> LaserJock: they kinda get worked on in a non-conference specific sort of way
[08:52] <mdke> but we didn't do formal specs for documents really
[08:53] <Burgwork> we have some for dapper that should be dealt with
[08:53] <jjesse> i would like to come the confrence
[08:53] <jjesse> didn't we at one time talk about having some form of doc team confrence call or something like that?
[08:53] <Burgwork> yes we did
[08:54] <LaserJock> doc sprints
[08:54] <jjesse> did that ever happen?
[08:54] <Burgwork> no
[08:54] <Burgwork> lack of time
[08:55] <LaserJock> we could at least have a series of doc team meetings where more people show up
[08:56] <mdke> yes, we could do some irc sprints
[08:56] <mdke> weekends would probably work better, if they weren't too frequent
[08:57] <LaserJock> well, I'm just thinking we might need something so that we have a unified idea of what we want to do with edgy and who is going to work on what, etc.
[08:57] <mdke> yep, absolutely.
[08:58] <Burgwork> we are doing quite well at getting that, I think
[08:58] <mdke> yes, this release was really good
[08:59] <LaserJock> yeah, I think the jump from Breezy docs to Dapper docs has been pretty awesome
[08:59] <mdke> immensely good.
[09:00] <mdke> I think because the team works really well together
[09:00] <LaserJock> I agree, people just get in there an start helping. Very few arguments or problems
[09:00] <mdke> not like the old days ;)
[09:01] <LaserJock> well, I wasn't around for the old days, but one only has to look at debian-devel or ubuntu-devel for some examples of problems :-)
[09:03] <Burgwork> mdke, ah, but I liked the bad old days ;)
[09:04] <mdke> are you saying you used to do more work?
[09:04] <Burgwork> lol
[09:04] <mdke> you've done a hell of a lot on the wiki in this release cycle, anyways
[09:05] <Burgwork> yes, but I did more for the shipped docs last cycle
[09:05] <LaserJock> I think the wiki work is very difficult
[09:05] <LaserJock> more social problems there
[09:06] <Burgwork> mdke, jeff schering and I did a great deal of copyediting last cycle
[09:07] <mdke> tour*
[09:07] <mdke> my brain takes a while to start ticking
[11:07] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[11:08] <theCore> hi LaserJock
[11:08] <theCore> I made some cleaning chores for the PG, btw
[11:09] <LaserJock> cool
[11:10] <theCore> I started that, last night
[11:10] <theCore> I done 44% of basic.xml
[11:10] <LaserJock> theCore: CC meeting right now in #ubuntu-meeting if you want to see some people get grilled :-)
[11:11] <theCore> oh
[11:12] <theCore> LaserJock: grilled?
[11:13] <LaserJock> theCore: questioned intensely
[11:15] <theCore> LaserJock: oh, new member nominations ...
[11:22] <theCore> LaserJock: does the repository is still frozen?
[11:23] <theCore> LaserJock: or a new branch has been opened?
[11:23] <LaserJock> theCore: there is a branch for dapper now
[11:29] <LaserJock> mdke: I really don't understand the problem, my understanding is you have to be a member to become a MOTU or a core-dev anyway. The only problem would be for Canonical employees, right?
[11:30] <mdke> LaserJock: the problem is that currently the TB isn't enforcing that rule
[11:30] <LaserJock> ?
[11:30] <mdke> i.e. you don't have to be a member to become a MOTU or core-dev
[11:30] <LaserJock> I've heard them say that over and over
[11:30] <LaserJock> it wasn't always the case
[11:30] <mdke> at the last meeting, 2 out of the 3 candidates considered weren't members.
[11:30] <LaserJock> what? that is really odd
[11:31] <mdke> mdz said it was because of difficulties with timing between the various meetings
[11:31] <LaserJock> hmm
[11:31] <LaserJock> I see
[11:37] <theCore> IMHO, all the membership thing is useless ...
[11:37] <Burgwork> theCore, why do you say that?
[11:38] <theCore> Burgwork: it puts an unnecessary barrier for the new developers
[11:38] <LaserJock> why is it unnecessary?
[11:38] <Burgwork> theCore, membership is not required to participate
[11:38] <Burgwork> entry level is very low
[11:38] <Burgwork> try becoming a DD
[11:39] <mdke> membership is a fundamental part of the community 
[11:40] <theCore> still, I can't see why we need it
[11:40] <LaserJock> theCore: to keep quality up
[11:40] <theCore> Burgwork: that's probably why they get slow releases cycles
[11:41] <Burgwork> theCore, they are two seperate issues, only connecting by both being problems of debian
[11:41] <theCore> LaserJock: version control is enough
[11:41] <Burgwork> long release cycles have to do with nobody wanting to do the hard and unfun work of release management
[11:42] <LaserJock> theCore: not when it comes to packaing
[11:42] <Burgwork> theCore, membership serves a great many useful functions, and has a very low barrier
[11:42] <theCore> maybe ...
[11:42] <Burgwork> it provides a clear goal for new people to go for and helps bring out stronger community, by celebrating sucess
[11:42] <LaserJock> +1
[11:43] <mdke> it's absolutely central to the community, which is central to Ubuntu
[11:43] <Burgwork> the goverence structure also provides for clear places to seek resolution of conflict, as well as transparency
[11:43] <theCore> LaserJock: the repository isn't under version control?
[11:43] <LaserJock> theCore: no
[11:43] <theCore> bizzare ...
[11:43] <LaserJock> theCore: a person who has upload rights, esentiall has root access to every Ubuntu box
[11:43] <LaserJock> that is not something to be taken lightly
[11:44] <LaserJock> and give to any random person
[11:44] <LaserJock> the same with our docs, we could easily have people defacing our docs and causing all kinds of problems
[11:44] <LaserJock> the bar is really set low, prove that you are a team player and you want to help
[11:45] <theCore> LaserJock: that' what Version Control is for ;)
[11:46] <LaserJock> no, it isn't
[11:46] <LaserJock> version control is for people or teams to keep track of their work, not everybody elses random commits
[11:47] <LaserJock> can you imagine how much work it would be for us to have to go over *every* commit to the svn repo and see if we need to revert stuff?
[11:48] <theCore> well, Linux and Gnome use this way, if I remember
[11:48] <mdke> no, Gnome limits commit access
[11:48] <mdke> only very special people get cvs accounts
[11:49] <dsas> and Linux uses git, so Linus only pulls patches that have been reviewed, tested and verified by others.
[11:51] <theCore> hmm ... then maybe I'm all wrong 
[11:52] <dsas> There has to be some form of meritocracy, it's just whether or not it's extremely formal (like Debian), or informal like the kernel hackers.
[11:53] <LaserJock> well, I don't know that your all wrong. I agree that some times there is too much getting in the way of people contributing, but I do think Ubuntu has done a really good job of keeping that to a minimum
[11:54] <LaserJock> it is really fairly easy and straight forward to become an Ubuntu member. You just have to work on Ubuntu for a while.
[11:55] <theCore> however, I think we could have a -experimental branch of Ubuntu, with a free for all style of development like the Wiki. Then, commit the nice things to the main branch
[11:55] <mdke> heh
[11:56] <crimsun> oh my, that would suck. Yes, suck.
[11:56] <theCore> why so?
[11:56] <mdke> theCore: key to Ubuntu's success is its close sense of community
[11:56] <crimsun> imagine n people clobbering each other over their favorite commits.
[11:57] <LaserJock> theCore: people can already send their stuff to REVU
[11:58] <crimsun> and in turn, REVU is well, reviewed by us
[11:59] <LaserJock> I mean, really the bar is pretty low, it just sometimes takes time because it takes a lot of manpower to run a distro
[12:00] <theCore> Oh right ... I always forget about REVU
[12:01] <theCore> is it possible to add REVU in /etc/apt/source.list ?
[12:01] <LaserJock> REVU isn't a repo, yet
[12:02] <LaserJock> theCore: you can send your source package and then MOTUs can review and give comments
[12:02] <LaserJock> and then if you get 2 MOTUs to approve of your package it gets uploaded