[08:45] <johan_> pcmcia networking need always to reload it doesn't load to himselves
[08:46] <johan_> working in kubuntu dapper beta 2 release
[11:12] <simira> sfllaw: get a room
[05:28] <robitaille> @topic
[05:28] <robitaille> @timezone US/Pacific
[05:29] <robitaille> @schedule US/Pacific
[05:29] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Pacific: 09 May 13:00: Technical Board | 10 May 06:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 14:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 05:00: Community Council
[05:29] <Seveas> ah, now I know what's missing...
[05:30] <Riddell> a way to stop it setting off my highlights 12 times a day each week there happens to be a kubuntu meeting?
[05:31] <Seveas> @config channel plugins.webcal.topic  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | %s
[05:31] <Seveas> Riddell, /ignore 
[05:31] <Seveas> @topic
[06:11] <zul> @schedule Montreal
[06:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 17:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 08:00: Community Council
[06:37] <ubuntu_lt> @schedule Vilnius
[06:37] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 09 May 23:00: Technical Board | 10 May 16:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 23:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 May 00:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 15:00: Community Council
[07:27] <neuralis> @schedule new_york
[07:27] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 17:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 08:00: Community Council
[07:54] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[07:54] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 09 May 23:00: Technical Board | 10 May 16:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 23:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 May 00:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 15:00: Community Council
[07:58] <highvoltage> @schedule johannesburg
[07:59] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 23:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 14:00: Community Council
[08:00] <highvoltage> isn/win 15
[08:01] <lucas> @schedule Europe/Paris
[08:01] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 09 May 22:00: Technical Board | 10 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 23:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 14:00: Community Council
[09:42] <zul> @schedule Montreal
[09:42] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 09 May 16:00: Technical Board | 10 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 10 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 11 May 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 May 17:00: Kubuntu | 16 May 08:00: Community Council
[09:56] <mjg59> Evening
[09:56] <highvoltage> evening mjg59 
[09:59] <zul> hey
[09:59] <sivang> evening all
[09:59] <highvoltage> evenin'
[10:00] <fabbione> evening
[10:00] <zakame> hi all
[10:02] <sfllaw> Afternoon.
[10:02] <sivang> hey sfllaw , what's up?
[10:03] <zakame> hi sfllaw 
[10:03] <Keybuk> ok
[10:03] <Keybuk> mdz, mjg59: ping
[10:03] <bddebian> Heya sfllaw
[10:03] <zakame> sivang
[10:03] <sivang> hey zakame 
[10:03] <mdz> good day
[10:03] <bddebian> zakame
[10:03] <Keybuk> I assume we won't have the sab as usual
[10:04] <highvoltage> Keybuk: South African Breweries?
[10:04] <mdz> highvoltage: they won't be here either
[10:04] <sfllaw> Alas.
[10:04] <highvoltage> :)
[10:05] <cbx33> evenin all
[10:05] <pitti> hi
[10:05] <ivoks> hi
[10:05] <mdz> that's odd; I have evolution set to remind me 1 hour in advance of tech board, but it reminded me 2 hours in advance instead
[10:05] <mdz> it even said so itself
[10:05] <sivang> evolution getting life of its own :)
[10:06] <bddebian> It's evolving? ;-P
[10:06] <cbx33> that's scary
[10:06] <Keybuk> evo sucks at time zones
[10:06] <fabbione> s/at time zones//
[10:06] <Keybuk> I gave up using it's alarms once I realised it thought DST was something that happened to other people
[10:06] <ivoks> :)
[10:06] <Keybuk> and that upstream had ignored that bug for ~ 3 years
[10:07] <Keybuk> well ... I can see we have a FULL agenda tonight
[10:07] <pitti> strange, the notifications have always worked fine for me, also with dst
[10:09] <ogra> for me too
[10:09] <ivoks> then i consider my self lucky... for not using gnome :)
[10:09] <sfllaw> twm all the way!
[10:10] <ogra> ivoks, because it works fine for some ppl ? 
[10:10] <ivoks> ogra: because it works for someone, but not for all :)
[10:10] <zakame> strange, notifs never borked on me too...
[10:10] <LaserJock> sfllaw: you use X? ;-)
[10:10] <sfllaw> LaserJock: Sometimes.
[10:10] <zakame> what was giving me an annoyance was xchat-gnome's missing underscores
[10:11] <seb128> is that fixed now?
[10:11] <Keybuk> shall we get started, anyway?
[10:11] <seb128> I think there is a bug open about that :p
[10:11] <Keybuk> I can see sfllaw and zakame
[10:11] <Keybuk> do we also have zul ?
[10:11] <zul> yep
[10:12] <zakame> hi Keybuk seb128 :D
[10:12] <Keybuk> ok, shall we start at the top then
[10:12] <Keybuk> sfllaw: you're proposed for ubuntu-core-dev
[10:12] <Keybuk> and you're at the top of my list, so you get to go first :)
[10:12] <sfllaw> Hmm...  I don't know what to say outside of what I said to the Community Council.
[10:12] <sfllaw> I've been a Debian Developer since April 2003.  I'm upstream maintainer for a few pieces of software and package more that just those.
[10:12] <sfllaw> I've been doing Ubuntu work for about two weeks now and have been steadily triaging through bug reports.  I expect to do this for as long Canonical pays me and probably after that.
[10:13] <sfllaw> Ask me questions.
[10:13] <sfllaw> Please?
[10:13] <ogra> will you pay us beer in paris ?
[10:13] <fabbione> sfllaw: do you like beer?
[10:13] <ogra> *lots* of beer ?
[10:13] <fabbione> we love it :)
[10:13] <ogra> :)
[10:13] <azeem> ogra: there's no good beer in Paris, d'oh
[10:13] <sfllaw> I do.  I have a fondness for Qubec beers.
[10:14] <sfllaw> And ones from a small University town in Waterloo.
[10:14] <fabbione> +1 for sfllaw 
[10:14] <ogra> azeem, ah, damned, right its the wine country
[10:14] <Keybuk> sfl: do you support the quebecistani separatist movement?
[10:14] <bddebian> Wow, two weeks of bug triaging?  Can I apply then? :-)
[10:14] <mjg59> sfllaw: What will you be doing with main?
[10:14] <sfllaw> Keybuk: I am apolitical.
[10:14] <ogra> anothe +1 for sfllaw then :)
[10:14] <jbailey> *lol*
[10:14] <jbailey> Simon does cook *Very* well.
[10:14] <jbailey> Even vegan food. =)
[10:14] <azeem> sfllaw: is it true that you are part of a group which calls itself `THUG'?
[10:14] <highvoltage> wine is not an emulator?
[10:15] <cbx33> The Hug User Group ?
[10:15] <Keybuk> (For those just floating by, sfllaw works for Canonical and is in charge of Ubuntu QA)
[10:15] <mjg59> Could we have a little less in the way of background noise, please?
[10:15] <sfllaw> mjg59: I hope to be sponsoring bugfixes into main, that I have vetted.  As well, I hope to package various debugging tools that I will write.  And, of course, to upload my own packages which I will maintain in parallel to my Debian ones.
[10:15] <mdz> (sorry, was drawn into the kernel discussion in progress)
[10:15] <sfllaw> azeem: I am no longer.  We're now called CHUG.
[10:16] <mjg59> sfllaw: Which Debian packages do you maintain which would be appropriate for main? (or are we talking about universe here as well?)
[10:16] <sfllaw> wvdial and wvstreams are the canonical examples.
[10:17] <ogra> heya, what about tvtime ?
[10:17] <sfllaw> Is that in main?
[10:17] <mdz> no
[10:17] <sfllaw> Sweet.
[10:17] <ogra> nah
[10:17] <mdz> ogra: he was answering mjg59's question
[10:18] <mjg59> sfllaw: wvdial isn't really (well, at all) integrated into the desktop right now. Do you have any interest in trying to improve the state of dialup?
[10:18] <sfllaw> I do.
[10:18] <mjg59> Excellent. How? :)
[10:18] <sfllaw> This weekend, I found the fix to the bug in WvStreams that hung autodetection.
[10:18] <Keybuk> I'd be especially grateful of any dial-up integration assistance you could provide
[10:18] <mdz> indeed, that is an area where we have known deficiencies due to Ubuntu developers having broadband :-P
[10:18] <sfllaw> So that's a start.
[10:18] <Keybuk> do you know much about ISDN?
[10:18] <sfllaw> Sadly nothing about ISDN.
[10:18] <sfllaw> I understand jbailey does.
[10:18] <sfllaw> And he lives, like five minutes away.
[10:19] <mjg59> sfllaw: Other areas of interest include trying to improve winmodem setup and the like
[10:19] <mjg59> It'd be good to have that working to the legally practical extent
[10:19] <sfllaw> That would excellent.  I have to caution you that my primary responsibility is still QA.
[10:19] <mjg59> Obviously
[10:19] <sfllaw> But I would be happy to work in this direction, as it's something I've wanted to do for WvDial for a while.
[10:20] <mdz> sfllaw: I'd love to see a launchpad team devoted to dialup support, to which the relevant bugs could be directed
[10:20] <mdz> I expect that if you sent out a call to the community, folks would join up
[10:20] <mdz> teams are a good way to create a focal point for that kind of work
[10:20] <mjg59> sfllaw: On another note, wvdial isn't really the model of a modern UI - exposing things like "stupid mode" to the user is somewhat confusing :)
[10:21] <sfllaw> mjg59: All I have to say in its defence is that it was excellent at the time it was written...
[10:21] <mdz> (wvdial hasa UI?)
[10:21] <mjg59> sfllaw: I'm not going to disagree in the slightest
[10:21] <sfllaw> WvDial has suffered from its age.
[10:21] <highvoltage> a ui, probably not a gui :)
[10:21] <ivoks> mdz: gnome-ppp
[10:21] <pitti> does any country apart from Germany actually use it?
[10:22] <sfllaw> I know people use it with IRDA and Bluetooth cellphones.
[10:22] <ivoks> pitti: wvdial?
[10:22] <mdz> pitti: ISDN or wvdial?
[10:22] <mjg59> Ok, I think I'm done. Anyone else?
[10:22] <sfllaw> And that's in North America.
[10:22] <ogra> ISDN
[10:22] <ivoks> ISDN is popular in Croatia too
[10:22] <Mithrandir> not that uncommon in .no either.
[10:22] <zakame> ivoks: which fortunately I'm now ITA'ing in Debian atm
[10:22] <fabbione> and in some parts of italy too
[10:22] <highvoltage> and in south africa
[10:22] <Mithrandir> (but I tend to solve the problem by throwing an ISDN router in between. :-)
[10:22] <highvoltage> i'm connected with wvdial right now
[10:23] <mjg59> No, really, can we please focus on the agenda rather than veering off into unrelated tangents?
[10:23] <ivoks> zakame: :)
[10:23] <sfllaw> Any other questions?
[10:23] <mdz> highvoltage: hmm, another dialup team member raises his hand ;-)
[10:23] <mjg59> mdz: Keybuk: Anything else?
[10:23] <crimsun> sfllaw: this may not lie in the scope of bug hunting, but do you envision automating strace, backtraces, and the like?
[10:23] <mdz> not from me
[10:23] <Keybuk> nothing fro me
[10:23] <mdz> votes?
[10:23] <Keybuk> +1
[10:24] <mjg59> +1 
[10:24] <sfllaw> crimsun: I do.
[10:24] <fabbione> +1
[10:24] <sfllaw> I haven't yet written specs for these tools yet.
[10:24] <mdz> +1 here based on Debian and Ubuntu involvement and high expectations ;-)
[10:24] <sfllaw> But I've done similar things on a smaller scale.
[10:24] <sfllaw> mdz: Aww.  That's so sweet of you.
[10:24] <ogra> yay sfllaw !!
[10:24] <dholbach> yoooohoooooo!
[10:24] <zakame> rock on sfllaw ! :D
[10:24] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[10:24] <pitti> mdz: ISDN
[10:24] <bddebian> w00t sfllaw, the Official Task Master
[10:24] <ivoks> i see you allready huged before :)
[10:25] <mjg59> fabbione: Dude, you don't seem to be on the tech board? :)
[10:25] <cbx33> congrats sfllaw 
[10:25] <pitti> welcome sfllaw 
[10:25] <sfllaw> mjg59: When are those appointments coming up?  Next week?
[10:25] <fabbione> mjg59: so? i like sfllaw , is that a problem`??? :)
[10:25] <mjg59> sfllaw: Appointments?
[10:25] <mdz> fabbione: not a problem in itself, but it's confusing during the meeting :-)
[10:26] <mjg59> Ok. Who's up next?
[10:26] <Keybuk> zul is next
[10:26] <Keybuk> (for main)
[10:26] <zul> ok..
[10:26] <mjg59> zul: Cool. Can you introduce yourself?
[10:26] <bddebian> What the?..
[10:26] <zul> my name is ChuckShort and I have been using linux in one form or another for the past 10 years
[10:27] <zul> i been using ubuntu since hoary and i have been contributing since then as well.
[10:27] <zul> i am a member of the kernel team where i been helping out with patches, external drivers, bug triaging and some support
[10:28] <zul> i also helped out with the bug squad doing uploads to universe with various fixes, i also been trying to help out with grub as well
[10:28] <fabbione> i can speak up as witness for zul work
[10:28] <highvoltage> cool. chuck uses linux!
[10:28] <zul> im also a member of the laptop team
[10:28] <fabbione> at least for the kernel part
[10:28] <mdz> zul has been a member of MOTU since September
[10:28] <bddebian> highvoltage: :-)
[10:29] <fabbione> he did quite a job...
[10:29] <mdz> unless that's when we migrated into launchpad, in which case it's been longer ;-)
[10:29] <ogra> and did a huge amount of fixes already
[10:29] <Keybuk> you've certainly touched a fair number of packages
[10:29] <zul> i also obeen bugging people about ubuntuce or embedded ubuntu
[10:29] <fabbione> and Dear TC please approve zul so he can stop nagging me to be to a TC meeting :P
[10:29] <zul> and i was at ubz as well
[10:29] <zul> hehe
[10:29] <mjg59> zul: So, what would you be doing in main?
[10:30] <Keybuk> zul: and what would you like to do in main?
[10:30] <Keybuk> heh, snap
[10:30] <zul> mdz: i done more work with bugzilla :)
[10:30] <fabbione> anyway.. joking aside.. i think he can manage quality wise to keep up with our standards
[10:30] <zul> i would like to continue with the kernel team, i want to help out maintain the dapper kernel once dapper has been released
[10:30] <fabbione> and he has always been there
[10:30] <zul> as well as varous bugfixing and vetting bug fixes into main
[10:31] <zul> oh yeah i was also a gentoo developer where I maintained apache for gentoo before i got burned out
[10:31] <mdz> zul: what do you think we can do to help effectively triage kernel bugs?  it is one of the highest volumes of new bugs we have
[10:32] <zul> mdz: basically keep doing what i have been doing asking questions and providing test modules for users to try
[10:33] <sfllaw> zul: Hmm.  Could we go beyond that?  Looking at our bug triage rates, we're slipping behind the rate of bug filing.
[10:33] <zul> for example if user has a problem with the sky2 module i would try to find a patch or create a patch and put it somewhere where users can try it out
[10:33] <zul> sfllaw: true
[10:33] <mdz> zul: it seems that at present, there are many bugs which do not even see a response (e.g., reports which need to be asked for more info), I'm referring to that problem more so than getting the bugs fixed
[10:33] <zul> sfllaw: i havent had a chance to look a lot of kernel bugs because of real life commitments recently
[10:34] <zul> but in the past i try to be as prompt as possible
[10:35] <mdz> BenC: we're discussing zul's application, and in the process, the question of how to address the problem of kernel bug triage
[10:35] <BenC> should I address zul or kernel bugs first?
[10:36] <BenC> my comments on kernel bugs will probably me much more lengthy :)
[10:36] <zul> mdz: i think the amount of volume of kernel bugs that we have now are old stale bug reports that users never get back to us
[10:36] <mdz> BenC: zul; in fact we should probably defer the other conversation until later in the meeting after applications are processed
[10:36] <zul> ok not a problem
[10:37] <BenC> ok, in regards to zul, he's worked quite a bit with the kernel team
[10:37] <BenC> for the most part, he is very capable of handling the technical, and social aspects of working with the team. Always asks questions when he needs to and is receptive to comments and criticism
[10:38] <bddebian> zul has been helping quite a bit with Universe bugs too
[10:38] <ogra> and with grub iirc
[10:38] <BenC> I've only had a few occasions to comment on his work, but after talking with him about the issues, he's produced better work, so his willingness to learn is definitely there
[10:39] <BenC> zul: are you paying me by the word, or just for the end result? :)
[10:39] <fabbione> BenC: LOL
[10:39] <zul> lol
[10:40] <zul> end result..*ssh* :)
[10:40] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: any further questions?
[10:40] <mdz> I would like to talk about kernel bugs, but later
[10:40] <zul> as BenC said i am very willing to learn and i think i have come a long way from where I started
[10:40] <Keybuk> none for me
[10:40] <mjg59> No, I'm good
[10:40] <mdz> ok, votes
[10:41] <mjg59> +1 from me
[10:41] <mdz> +1, strong recommendations all around and substantial body of good quality contributions
[10:41] <Keybuk> +1
[10:41] <mdz> zul: congratulations and welcome
[10:41] <dholbach> congratulations zul!
[10:41] <fabbione> zul: welcome to hell!
[10:41] <zul> wohoo...thanks..
[10:41] <sfllaw> Welcome to the club!
[10:41] <zul> fabbione: been there done that
[10:42] <mdz> there was one more applicant, yes?
[10:42] <Keybuk> and last up (for main) we have zakame 
[10:42] <BenC> zul: cash, no checks
[10:42] <Keybuk> thanks for being patient :)
[10:42] <zul> BenC: beer good?
[10:42] <Keybuk> mdz: gah, stop clicking before me <g>
[10:42] <BenC> beer and marlboros :)
[10:42] <zul> hehe
[10:42] <ogra> yay zul :)
[10:43] <mdz> Keybuk: you approved sfllaw for the wrong team :-P
[10:43] <zakame> way to go zul! :D
[10:43] <mdz> zakame: you're up next
[10:43] <sfllaw> mdz: I don't mind.  Add me to more.
[10:43] <zakame> ok
[10:43] <Seveas> sfllaw: collecting emblems? 
[10:43] <Keybuk> mdz: I did?  I approved him for both
[10:44] <mdz> Keybuk: I did -core-dev, and then you did -dev
[10:44] <Keybuk> well, I approved him for -dev on the basis you did -core-dev
[10:44] <Keybuk> right
[10:44] <bddebian> w00t zul
[10:44] <Keybuk> zakame: would you like to introduce yourself?
[10:44] <mdz> -core-dev implies membership in -dev
[10:44] <mdz> anyway, right
[10:45] <Keybuk> mdz: it does, but then I always figure that -core-dev may be lost without losing -dev ... so people should be in both, in case they resign from main but stay on in universe *shrug*
[10:45] <ogra> why wasnt he in -dev ?
[10:45] <zakame> Yes, I'm ZakElep, currently fixing bug 6548 as I write this :)
[10:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 6548 in gxmms "Panel Icon is Missing [gxmms-bmp]  (Dapper)" [Normal,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6548
[10:45] <ogra> as an all time uploader 
[10:45] <mdz> ogra: sfllaw
[10:45] <ogra> oh
[10:45] <ogra> k
[10:46] <sfllaw> ogra: You're working too hard.  :)
[10:46] <ogra> :P
[10:46] <BenC> FYI, I am typing up some notes on kernel bugs, so when we are ready to discuss, someone just ping me so I can lay it out
[10:46] <sfllaw> zakame: You should probably tell us more about your application.
[10:46] <mdz> BenC: ok
[10:47] <mdz> zakame: tell us about what you have been working on so far, and what you would hope to do as a core developer
[10:47] <zakame> I have been on the Ubuntu team since October 2005, and since then I have been working on various things for the distro, including translations, bug fixing and triage, and now I feel that its time for me to up the ante by working on doing and coding feature specs for ubuntu :)
[10:48] <zakame> sfllaw, mdz: sorry, my dialup's laggy :/
[10:48] <Keybuk> and what in main particularly irks or interests you, that you would like to work on?
[10:48] <Keybuk> . o O { dial-up support? :p }
[10:48] <bddebian> heh
[10:49] <zakame> I have been noticing the comments on bugs lately in the devel list, and as a result I have been reasearching for putting together a 'smart' bug reporting tool 
[10:49] <ogra> the famous dholbach_iconcache :)
[10:49] <sivang> hehe
[10:50] <zakame> yes, I am also doing work for DhIconCacheChanges, currently in Universe, but I would like to help on main too :D
[10:51] <zakame> and yes, DialUpSupport too, as I have said earlier... I'm on a linuxant right now using the free liceense, and yes, 'tis a bit crappy doing work under a 14.4, but still it works
[10:51] <mdz> zakame: what sort of features do you have in mind for main?
[10:53] <sabdfl> erk
[10:54] <sabdfl> sorry, i thought we were on at 23h00 UTC
[10:54] <zakame> mdz: lots; for some, I would like it to have better support for non-broadband users like me,
[10:54] <zakame> hi sabd	
[10:54] <mdz> sabdfl: zakame was just telling us how he would like to spec out how to improve out-of-the-box dialup support in Ubuntu
[10:54] <sabdfl> sounds good!
[10:55] <mdz> zakame: have you made any sponsored uploads to main?
[10:55] <zakame> mdz: I also want it to have better printing preferences imrpovements; there has been some cases other users have pointed me on, since I'm the debian packager for gtklp
[10:55] <sabdfl> i realised the meeting was underway when I got to the LP mails telling me sfllaw was a new dev - welcome aboard :-)
[10:55] <sivang> LOL
[10:56] <sabdfl> zakame: are you tracking upstream's plans for gtk printing prefs?
[10:56] <zakame> mdz: none at the moment, but I have pending debdiffs to upload for dh_iconcache
[10:56] <Keybuk> sabdfl: tsk, ignoring your IRC pings, eh? :)
[10:57] <sfllaw> sabdfl: Thanks!
[10:57] <ogra> LP needs a ping interface :)
[10:58] <mdz> zakame: are you a Debian developer?
[10:58] <zakame> sabdfl: not yet, sorry, as in between doing ubuntu work I am also doing some real life stuff teaching for our summer camp :)
[10:58] <sivang> ogra: an SMS interface :)
[10:58] <highvoltage> hmmm.. a meeting reminder thingy would be nice... perhaps a fridge function instead?
[10:58] <zakame> mdz: I am currently on the NM queue waiting foran NM
[10:58] <zakame> err AM
[10:58] <pitti> highvoltage: it's already there, subscribe to the fridge calendar
[10:58] <BenC> zakame: Good luck with that :)
[10:58] <mdz> sabdfl: I've mailed you a copy of the log for zakame prior to your arrival
[10:59] <zakame> sabdfl: I have been looking on the printing specs on LP though, but I haven't considered them fully
[10:59] <zakame> BenC: thanks
[11:02] <mdz> zakame: most of the work that I've seen of yours has been high-volume but trivial changes, like dh_iconcache and syncs from Debian.  The former is mostly a large one-time transition, and the latter doesn't require any upload privileges.  Can you tell us what motivated you to apply for upload privileges to main?  what do you plan to upload?
[11:03] <sabdfl> hey raphink, great work with KDE at LinuxTag
[11:03] <raphink> thanks sabdfl :)
[11:04] <sabdfl> zakame: would you be willing to avoid a core set of packages initially (stuff that might directly affect install or boot?)
[11:06] <zakame> sabdfl: if it is too intrusive, yes
[11:06] <sabdfl> zakame: can you give me an example of "too intrusive"?
[11:06] <sabdfl> and how would you get a non-intrusive change reviewed?
[11:08] <Keybuk> I'm not sure I'm happy with that idea ... if someone isn't ready to touch anything in main, they should stay in universe
[11:08] <Keybuk> being able to upload to main is because you can be trusted to work on packages that directly affect install and boot
[11:09] <sivang> Keybuk: one specific package comes into my mind ;-)
[11:09] <mdz> Keybuk: I agree; it's as much work to make that decision on a per-package bases as to review and sponsor the uploads
[11:09] <sabdfl> Keybuk: i don't know i think it's worth having guys who are confident to work quickly on light-touch issues
[11:09] <zakame> I see... ok, I suppose I will hold on thatfor now :)
[11:10] <sabdfl> i think its possible to exercise good judgement on that front
[11:10] <sabdfl> not commenting on zakame per se but i think if someone has energy, good judgement, and a good track record in MOTU then it's worth giving them the opportunity
[11:11] <Keybuk> if someone has a good track record in MOTU, then I generally don't see any obstacle for main upload
[11:11] <Keybuk> we're sliding away from the point here, however
[11:11] <Keybuk> anyone got any further questions for zakame?
[11:11] <mjg59> zakame: Do you feel not having main upload privileges is currently preventing you from doing things you want to do?
[11:12] <sabdfl> zakame: can you list any bugs you would be confident to fix and upload to main?
[11:14] <sabdfl> ok, zakame, i think you need to come back in early edgy
[11:15] <sabdfl> zakame: also, try picking out some fixes to main issues and running those past sfllaw
[11:15] <Keybuk> sabdfl: a -1 from you then?
[11:15] <sabdfl> as debdiffs
[11:15] <sabdfl> Keybuk: yes, for now
[11:15] <Keybuk> other votes?  mdz? mjg59?
[11:15] <mjg59> I'd agree with Mark for the moment
[11:15] <sabdfl> i like zakame's style but think i'd like to see examples of main patches beforehand
[11:15] <zakame> zakame: thanks :D
[11:16] <mdz> I would prefer to see zakame working with a core dev to sponsor uploads, to get some substantial experience and review there
[11:16] <sabdfl> zakame: keep track of all the work you do in universe too, so you can point us at a neat list
[11:16] <Keybuk> I agree also; I'm happy with zakame's work so far, but would like to see more "non-trivial" uploads to his name before approving him for main
[11:16] <Keybuk> sabdfl: LP does that for us :)  https://launchpad.net/people/zakame/+packages  this LP thing is great, you should try it out! :D
[11:17] <zakame> sabdfl: of course, I shall do so in my wikipage :)
[11:17] <mdz> zakame: would you be willing to start on your proposed work in main through a sponsor, and reapply at a later date?
[11:17] <fabbione> zakame: show this guys some balls and help me with X
[11:17] <fabbione> ;)
[11:18] <zakame> mdz: yes, I'd be happy to :D
[11:18] <sabdfl> Keybuk: pity about the UI, the guy who did that must suck ;-p
[11:18] <zakame> fabbione: I take it you will be my sponsor :D
[11:18] <sabdfl> looks perfect!
[11:18] <sabdfl> who's up next?
[11:18] <Keybuk> sabdfl: it's improving all the time, imo
[11:18] <fabbione> zakame: if you are ready tio sweat yes
[11:18] <zul> sabdfl: i think thats it
[11:19] <zakame> fabbione: I'm on it then :D
[11:19] <mdz> zakame: glad to hear it, thanks
[11:19] <sabdfl> hey zul - benc has been telling me about your great work on the kernel
[11:19] <mdz> that's it for core
[11:19] <mdz> are there MOTU applicants pending?
[11:19] <zul> sabdfl: thanks its nice to hear
[11:19] <fabbione> zakame: cool
[11:19] <zakame> mdz: it's no problem for me:) I take it as a good lesson to look back to :)
[11:19] <mdz> sabdfl: funny you should mention it...
[11:20] <mdz> ah, you got the mail already of course
[11:21] <Keybuk> mdz: none that I can see
[11:21] <mdz> there are 15 pending applications for ubuntu-dev
[11:21] <mdz> but most of them are old
[11:21] <mdz> if anyone is here to apply, please speak up
[11:21] <sivang> I am
[11:21] <sivang> sorry, been away form the machine
[11:22] <Keybuk> I could swear I got an e-mail about sivang today
[11:22] <Keybuk> yet LP shows he applied 2005-10-04
[11:22] <sivang> I reapplied today
[11:22] <sivang> so this makes sense
[11:22] <sivang> can I go on?
[11:22] <mdz> LP bug?
[11:22] <mdz> sivang: yes, go ahead
[11:23] <sivang> mdz: don't think so :)
[11:23] <sivang> anyways,
[11:23] <sivang> I am Sivan Greenberg,
[11:23] <sivang> been with Ubuntu since roughly october 2004 (before warty)
[11:23] <Keybuk> dholbach: can you mail Peter Norman Greenfield and do your reminding them that they need to show up at TB meetings thing?  And probably that he needs to work with the MOTU before applying
[11:23] <sivang> since done I have done a long way in my view, 
[11:24] <sivang> I have started with documentation , slowly but surely learning the development ways in ubuntu. Although my universe record is not that big, I have done some non trivial patches and mofications for packages in main
[11:24] <Keybuk> sivang: you're certainly a face we're used to seeing on the channels
[11:24] <sivang> like:
[11:24] <sivang> gnome-cups-manager
[11:24] <sivang> gnome-system-tools
[11:24] <sivang> system-tools-backends
[11:24] <dholbach> Keybuk: I mailed all of the guys.
[11:24] <sivang> irssi
[11:24] <highvoltage> oooh, irssi
[11:24] <dholbach> Keybuk: I'll try to make sure to give all of them a month to answer and if they don't we can drop them from the list.
[11:25] <sivang> liblpint-bonobo - the launch[pad integration library for bonobo 
[11:25] <sivang> (for this I created the lib itself, packaging was done by someone else)
[11:25] <sivang> and recently created the package for my python application,
[11:25] <sivang> based on the specifciation from UBZ HomeUserBackup (hubackup in universe)
[11:25] <Keybuk> You've even touched sysvinit, iirc?
[11:26] <sivang> indeed
[11:26] <sivang> ;-)
[11:26] <ogra> Keybuk, sivang was lacking packaging knowledge for quite some time but did awesome work on patches, recently he jumped on MOTU and also does packages now 
[11:26] <Keybuk> who sponsored that one for you, ooi?
[11:26] <sivang> and I will never forget what you said wrt to my patch there :)
[11:26] <Keybuk> what did I say?
[11:26] <sabdfl> sivang: have you worked closely with any MOTU developers or core devs in particular?
[11:26] <Keybuk> (I'm entirely aware it may be me who sponsored it ... my memory is not what it was)
[11:27] <sivang> sabdfl: yes, pitti, seb128, mvo, and recently slomo who helped me get my pakcage in universe
[11:27] <sivang> bddebian also helepd with reviews
[11:27] <pitti> yep, I uploaded several fixes from Sivan
[11:27] <sivang> I also worked with pitti on the DB2 packaging, even sent a couple of patches
[11:28] <dholbach> I had a look at hupbackup, but somebody else took it to improve and upload after me.
[11:28] <sivang> Keybuk: never patch debian/. using the patch system, (or from within debian.) IIRC  ? is that so? :)
[11:28] <Keybuk> ahh
[11:28] <Keybuk> I get quite passionate about that :)
[11:28] <sabdfl> i'm certainly convinced of sivang's commitment, but can't comment on packaging skills. pitti, mvo, seb128?
[11:28] <sivang> Keybuk: indeed :)
[11:29] <sivang> oh, and just today I Helped slomo with tray icons transpernacy patches,
[11:29] <sivang> which are still pending review at http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/tray_icon/
[11:29] <pitti> from my experience, Sivan learns slowly, but steadily; he is cautious and I trust him to not do stuff he's unsure about without asking
[11:29] <seb128> I think that sivang has some good willing but still lot to learn too ...
[11:30] <pitti> and his enthusiasm is remarkable
[11:30] <Keybuk> any further questions for sivang?
[11:30] <Keybuk> mdz, mjg59 ?
[11:30] <mdz> yes
[11:31] <sivang> ALl I can say my performance in studying will be much improved from now on, I feel I am really managing to tackle things more neatly and quickly then before. I guess that comes over time of experience on the project.
[11:31] <sabdfl> +1 from me for sivang then
[11:31] <mdz> sivang: while developing your backup application, you waited a long time before uploading your packages, rather than developing them incrementally within Ubuntu.  why did you choose this approach?
[11:32] <mdz> in a collaborative project, it is important to work transparently, by making your work visible throughout the development process
[11:33] <sivang> mdz: looking back, I feel I had been a bit harsh on myself. I felt it was not appropriate to release the project to the wild in the condition it was then. regardless of that, I registered the branch in LP and tried to interest other memebers of the team (community wise) in the project, but did not get too much resonse.
[11:34] <sivang> mdz: again, the branch was available and viewable, even through LP's revision control
[11:34] <sivang> https://launchpad.net/people/sivan/+branch/hubackup/devel-main
[11:34] <mdz> very few people will go to your LP page and check out a bzr branch, compared to having a package in universe
[11:35] <mdz> the "release early, release often" mantra is key to what we do
[11:35] <sivang> I agree, this is correct. Feeling it was not appropriate at that time to put in as a package in universe, I approached people or respoded to peopel who showed interest in the specificaiton. This might have been a mistake.
[11:35] <highvoltage> mdz: sorry for asking a possibly off-topic and ignorant question, but shouldn't a package be of a certain quality first before it goes into universe?
[11:36] <raphink> highvoltage: this is why REVU exists
[11:36] <sabdfl> highvoltage: that's why we need.... Personal Package Archives! Coming SOON to a Launchpad near YOU
[11:36] <highvoltage> yay!
[11:36] <Keybuk> sabdfl: are they?  \o/
[11:36] <sivang> mdz: I was not happy with the application until it fulfilled it's main functionaly. when it did so, I released the package to universe.
[11:36] <sabdfl> Keybuk: sure, ask Kinnison
[11:36] <mdz> highvoltage: it should have a basic level of functionality; it does not need to be feature complete or bug-free
[11:36] <sivang> (including the important bits)
[11:36] <Keybuk> exxxxcellent, one of the remaining blockers for HCT that
[11:37] <zakame> sabdfl: coolness!
[11:37] <mdz> sivang: you asked for your package to be included in the release, even though it had not been uploaded yet (meaning you did not feel it was ready for people to even test yet)
[11:37] <sivang> mdz: dealing with application that can screw one's home folder and CDs I felt proper testing should be done prior and after completing the main functionality.
[11:37] <sabdfl> can we come to a decision on sivang?
[11:37] <sabdfl> sivang: reasonable - did you publish it outside the archive?
[11:38] <sivang> sabdfl: outside the bzr branch you mean?
[11:38] <sabdfl> yes, as debs people could test
[11:39] <sivang> mdz: I believed I could make it for this release, I admit I had wrong esitmated the time to reach the the point where it could be presented to people. assuming so without publishing debs for testing was wrong, that's true.
[11:39] <sivang> sabdfl: no :-/
[11:39] <sivang> sabdfl: for intersted people, I instructed to bzr branch it, and then test it.
[11:40] <mdz> sivang: thanks for the explanation; I wanted to understand your thinking because you seemed confused about why it couldn't be included
[11:40] <mdz> sivang: I've seen now that it's in universe, you're already getting good feedback
[11:40] <sivang> mdz: I believe I was, I was too optimistic about how much time would need to get from one milestone to the other, which flawed my judgment.
[11:41] <sivang> mdz: I know more then know how every small detail in a spec, can result in days of implementation. this fact should be of warning for us.
[11:41] <mdz> I'm finished with my questions
[11:41] <sivang> (now)
[11:41] <sivang> mdz: yes, I did got some nic feedback and interest
[11:42] <mdz> votes regarding sivang for ubuntu-dev?
[11:42] <sabdfl> +1
[11:42] <mdz> +1
[11:42] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[11:43] <sivang> mdz: (the gui needs more work, though :p)
[11:43] <mjg59> +1, yes
[11:43] <ogra> yay, welcome sivang 
[11:43] <pitti> sivang: congratulations! you have waited so long :)
[11:43] <mdz> sivang: welcome to the team
[11:43] <zakame> congrats sivang!
[11:43] <ogra> yeah, well deserved after all this time 
[11:43] <lifeless> congrats sivang
[11:44] <sabdfl> well done sivang
[11:44] <sabdfl> i remember your excitement in mataro!
[11:44] <sabdfl> it's been a great road so far
[11:44] <highvoltage> congrats sivang 
[11:44] <Keybuk> I think that's everybody now?
[11:44] <sabdfl> very well done
[11:44] <sivang> sabdfl: been amazing road!
[11:44] <ogra> yeah, well done
[11:44] <mdz> Keybuk: yes, and we've run long already
[11:44] <sivang> thanks all fo the cherring, and thanks mdz for the more then in place questions
[11:44] <mdz> any last-minute business to discuss?
[11:45] <sivang> pitti: thank you!
[11:45] <sabdfl> is ubuntu-dev a member of ubuntumembers yet?
[11:45] <ogra> didnt BenC want to discuss kernel bug handling ? 
[11:45] <mdz> after the TB meeting is adjourned, we're going to have a discussion about kernel QA on #ubuntu-kernel with BenC & co.
[11:45] <sabdfl> looks like it isn't
[11:45] <ogra> ah
[11:45] <ogra> :)
[11:45] <BenC> ok
[11:45] <mdz> sabdfl: is that what the CC resolved?
[11:45] <sivang> ogra: we also talked about that you need to understand the make file language hand by hand :)
[11:45] <sabdfl> i believe so, yes
[11:45] <ogra> sivang, hehe, yes
[11:46] <sabdfl> in other words, this group should also be considering substantial-and-sustained contribution
[11:46] <sabdfl> but i think that's implicit, even for ubuntu-dev
[11:46] <sabdfl> as sivang just found out :-)
[11:46] <dholbach> good night
[11:46] <ogra> night dholbach 
[11:46] <sivang> sabdfl: :-)
[11:46] <mvo> night dholbach
[11:46] <zakame> gn8 dholbach 
[11:46] <sabdfl> night all
[11:46] <pitti> bye folks
[11:46] <highvoltage> good night!
[11:46] <seb128> 'night dholbach
[11:46] <zakame> bye all
[11:46] <mdz> sabdfl: I wasn't present and haven't read the log yet, but if that was their decision, I'm happy for ubuntu-dev to be added to ubuntu-members
[11:47] <sabdfl> done
[11:48] <sabdfl> i'd like to do this for any team which has a robust structure and leadership
[11:48] <sabdfl> and in the case of large groups, like the forums, governance
[11:49] <mdz> ok
[11:49] <mdz> we've been here long enough :-)
[11:49] <mdz> adjourned, thanks everyone
[11:49] <zul> damn missed the rest of the meeting
[11:50] <zakame> thanks mzdz
[11:50] <ogra> thanks 
[11:50] <zul> thanks mdz
[11:50] <sivang> thanks everybody , been a great meeting :)
[11:50] <mdz> zul: <mdz> after the TB meeting is adjourned, we're going to have a discussion about kernel QA on #ubuntu-kernel with BenC & co.