[01:34] <persia> What would be the best place to request a change to the documentation visible from http://doc.ubuntu.com/?
[01:35] <mdke> persia: here, the mailing list, or the bugtracker
[01:37] <persia> mdke: The specific request is to add simple-patchsys.mk to the example CDBS rules file in http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-cdbs.html.  I'd be happy to use the bugtracker, but I'm not sure which - it is Malone?
[01:38] <LaserJock> persia: I can field that one ;-)
[01:38] <persia> LaserJock, mdke: Thank you.
[01:39] <LaserJock> persia: but I don't see why simple-patchsys.mk is needed
[01:40] <persia> LaserJock: Because some of the senior MOTUs recommend against adding a new patch system to a package, as the Debian maintainers have complained, but without a patch system, the changes are not restricted to the debian/ directory.  For new packages, it seems best practice to encourage the definition of the preferred patch system prior to any patches being applied, so as to prevent later direct patches.
[01:41] <persia> (note that senior in this case just means having been around a longer time)
[01:42] <LaserJock> persia: but that example there are no patches
[01:42] <LaserJock> *in that
[01:43] <LaserJock> persia: however, for Edgy we will be doing a much better treatment of patch systems and then your point will be perfectly valid
[01:43] <persia> persia: simple-patchsys doesn't crash when there are no patches, and no patches directory: it just doesn't do anything.  Without this, cdbs-edit-patch won't work properly unless one manually adds one of the patch systems to the rules file.
[01:44] <LaserJock> persia: ok, can you send me (mantha@ubuntu.com) an email about it. I gotta get home now.
[01:44] <persia> LaserJock: Could we please change for Breezy?  I've about 10 packages in the repository with changes in diff.gz that don't use a patch system to avoid irritating maintainers, and it is difficult to merge new debian versions when this is done.
[01:45] <persia> LaserJock: No problems.  Thanks again.
[01:59] <mdke> revision 3000 eh
[01:59] <mdke> not bad
[09:48] <Burgundavia> mdke: you around?
[10:43] <ompaul> mdke, got a moment
[10:44] <mdke> ompaul: alright
[10:46] <ompaul> I was thinking about Matt Z's mail, I think the wiki upgrade pages could all be pulled into one a standard format, where you have an explaination like Matt's at the top and then it should not have to change except to include version numbers
[10:46] <ompaul> s/numbers/names
[10:48] <ompaul> right now the wiki looks like a mess https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=upgrade&titlesearch=Titles so it would condense all of that into one page of goodness (but I don't know if kubuntu / xubuntu) can have the same menu entry at the end for users rather than testers
[10:49] <mdke> give me a few minutes to try and understand what you just said
[10:49] <mdke> ok, lots of those pages you linked aren't documentation
[10:49] <ompaul> correct
[10:50] <ompaul> I am bouncing the idea for an evaluation of "is it reasonable" Clapham omnibus etc
[10:51] <mdke> dude, you have a really odd way of expressing yourself :) anyway, the idea is to make a page about how to upgrade to the next version of Ubuntu?
[10:52] <ompaul> I concur about the expressing ones self. yes it is, I think that all existing pages can be condensed into one page 
[11:03] <mdke> ompaul: it's tricky because the graphical method only applies to dapper and subsequent
[11:04] <mdke> ompaul: perhaps something like this: Upgrading (introduction), Upgrading/Warty, Upgrading/Hoary etc
[11:05] <ompaul> that works, I'll do something with it,  when I am happy, I'll hand it off for review. 
[11:05] <mdke> or just leave things as they are now with one page to draw everything together
[11:06] <mdke> ompaul: btw, are you interested in the idea of changing the bot to point at documentation, rather than give answers?
[11:06] <ompaul> yes
[11:07] <mdke> ompaul: is there a web interface that one can use to change the bot?
[11:07] <ompaul> no
[11:07] <ompaul> its got to be done through the !
[11:07] <mdke> ompaul: so how are we going to go about it?
[11:08] <mdke> are there people who take care of the bot particularly?
[11:08] <ompaul> its open to anyone
[11:08] <ompaul> hang on a sec
[11:09] <mdke> sure, but are there people who do lots of work in that area?
[11:09] <ompaul> I imagine there are about 10 regulars
[11:10] <ompaul> http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/ can be used to dump the info 
[11:10] <ompaul> sorry stick pop.php after that 
[11:10] <mdke> so we'd need to get them familiar with where the more reliable docs are on various areas
[11:10] <ompaul> mdke, yeap that would be the idea
[11:10] <ompaul> if you have a land line handy want me to ring you, I don't speak quite as bad as I type :)
[11:11] <mdke> ah good, looks like there are plenty of links already
[11:11] <mdke> ompaul: i don't have one at work
[11:11] <ompaul> okay
[11:11] <mdke> the links are good, but they point at the wiki rather than our docs
[11:12] <ompaul> this is because the wiki is easier to search, now do you see why I wanted search :-) [note to self explain in as much detail as you can what it is you are trying to achieve] 
[11:13] <mdke> right, but now the docs are really well structured so you can find the info easily: "ati" would be http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html#graphics-cards "repos" would be http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/extra-repositories.html
[11:14] <mdke> codecs/mp3 etc http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/codecs.html
[11:14] <mdke> java etc for browsers http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/internet.html#web-browsing
[11:14] <ompaul> care to have a chat this evening on this?
[11:15] <mdke> ompaul: yeah, this evening is fine, I think
[11:15] <ompaul> I would like to give you a heads up on who is who 
[11:16] <mdke> sounds fine. I won't have much time to work on this, I've got loads on my todo list for Ubuntu right now
[11:16] <ompaul> no problem, I can carry it, if I have instruction
[11:16] <mdke> but I'm encouraged that there are lots of links there already
[11:16] <mdke> so it's just a question of gradually getting in links to our docs
[11:16] <ompaul> yeap that makes sense
[11:17] <ompaul> okay I'll let you go until later, drop me a note with your telephone, or if you have skype (shudder etc) 
[11:17] <ompaul> say about 8pm?
[11:18] <mdke> ompaul: fine, I'll mail you
[11:19] <mdke> ompaul: you're in ireland right?
[11:19] <ompaul> I am 
[11:19] <mdke> what tz is that?
[11:19] <mdke> excuse my ignorance
[11:19] <ompaul> bst
[11:19] <mdke> oh, good
[03:36] <jjesse> hello jsgotangco
[03:36] <jsgotangco> jjesse: hi!
[06:25] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[06:39] <WaterSevenUb> hhmm... in the desktop guide, C/add-applications.xml:219(para),  Ubuntu will inform you with a pop-up and a red icon in your notification area... In one of the daily builds I've tested days ago the icon was orange...
[06:40] <WaterSevenUb> is red correct?
[06:40] <LaserJock> hmm, I thought it was red, but I can't tell the difference much between orange and red on such a small icon
[06:42] <WaterSevenUb> it was red in breezy....
[06:42] <WaterSevenUb> but I think in dapper is orange now...
[06:42] <WaterSevenUb> at least was, a few days ago:) yeah, it is very small.
[06:43] <jjesse> was it changed?
[06:43] <jjesse> WaterSevenUb: file a bug report :)
[06:44] <WaterSevenUb> I will, later on. I need to double-check.
[07:15] <mdke> WaterSevenUb: we have a bug report on it already
[07:15] <WaterSevenUb> mdke, ok, thx.
[07:16] <LaserJock> mdke: busy? I wanted to ask you about the change persia wanted in the PG yesterday
[07:17] <LaserJock> mdke: if I change a line in a <screen> section will that mess up the translators, it isn't translated and it isn't in a <para> I don't think
[08:27] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah, that will need translating again
[08:28] <mdke> i *think*
[08:28] <mdke> what's the string inside the <screen>?
[08:28] <LaserJock> its just the contents of a file, it shouldn't be translated
[08:28] <mdke> right, but even if it stays the same, it might show up as translatable
[08:28] <LaserJock> I'm not terribly keen on adding it
[08:29] <mdke> what's the exact string currently, i'll search
[08:30] <LaserJock> it currently looks like:
#!/usr/bin/make -f
[08:30] <LaserJock> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk
[08:30] <LaserJock> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/autotools.mk</screen>
[08:30] <LaserJock> in basic.xml
[08:30] <LaserJock> and I persia wanted me to add one more include line
[08:31] <mdke> yeah, it's in the translation template
[08:31] <LaserJock> :/
[08:32] <LaserJock> ok, well then maybe I'll put it in trunk and leave dapper alone.
[08:39] <mdke> sabdfl is going to insist on putting the book in System/Help
[08:41] <LaserJock> hmm
[08:42] <LaserJock> mdke: could we make it "Ubuntu Book Excerpts" and not in System Documentation ?
[08:46] <mdke> yes, that's the idea
[08:46] <mdke> i still think it sucks though
[08:47] <LaserJock> did you read the part in my email about that
[08:49] <mdke> yes
[08:49] <LaserJock> I think it is a bit odd they argue that their won't be competition because they are different media and targets (books vs. online docs)
[08:49] <LaserJock> s/their/there/
[08:49] <LaserJock> but maybe I misunderstood
[08:50] <mdke> yeah, it's all balls.
[08:50] <mdke> I'm starting to suspect there is a commercial reason behind it, maybe it's part of the contract or something
[08:50] <LaserJock> hmmm
[08:50] <LaserJock> that could be
[08:51] <jjesse> i was just as shocked as you all are that it is going to be included
[08:52] <mdke> ompaul: i won't have time to hook up this evening, we'll have to do it another time.
[08:54] <mdke> jjesse: mark said that the discussions about inclusion included the authors
[08:55] <Burgwork> mdke, I knew it was going to be included, but I thought the time frame was edgy
[08:55] <Burgwork> there was some talk of possibly having it for dapper, but that was only talk, afaik
[08:56] <mdke> ah
[08:56] <mdke> Burgwork: btw, you pinged me earlier?
[08:57] <LaserJock> maybe we should have Mark fill out a UI Freeze exception report ;-)
[08:57] <mdke> Burgwork: while you're here, what do you think about having book sections in System/Help?
[08:57] <Burgwork> mdke, I have someone who speaks italian and whose english is a little broken. They also said they couldn't get a hold of the ubuntu-it people. Can I forward you the email?
[08:57] <mdke> Burgwork: course
[08:58] <Burgwork> mdke, I have forwarded two to you
[08:58] <mdke> cool
[09:00] <mdke> Burgwork: your take on System/Help/Book
[09:00] <mdke> ?
[09:00] <Burgwork> hmm, thinking
[09:01] <Burgwork> sorry, work is busy
[09:01] <mdke> np
[09:11] <LaserJock> well, there are always decisions made by leaders that we would like to change. You can't please everyone I suppose.
[09:11] <LaserJock> but this and that darn Edubuntu background are really the only things bugging me so far about Dapper
[09:13] <mdke> heh
[09:14] <mdke> as always at this time in the release cycle, I start getting frustrated that Mark gets a million ideas and wants to implement them all at the last minute
[09:15] <LaserJock> mdke: maybe we need to give him a fake release date, say 2 months before we really release, so then he can have his fun and we can have time to implement, ignore, etc. :-)
[09:15] <mdke> yeah, but he decides the release dates too :-(
[09:15] <mdke> we need a sabdfl freeze
[09:15] <LaserJock> LOL, yes!
[09:16] <mdke> i remember jdub proposing that for breezy...
[09:16] <highvoltage> an sabdfl freeze?
[09:16] <mdke> i gtg
[09:17] <highvoltage> bye mdke 
[09:18] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[09:20] <Burgwork> mdke, I like the idea of having the book available, but oppose it for dapper
[09:22] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm starting to dislike the whole LTS think a bit. It seems like there is a lot of "We gotta get this in because this our big release" but some stuff just isn't timed right
[09:23] <highvoltage> 'some stuff' will never be timed right :(
[09:23] <LaserJock> exactly
[09:23] <LaserJock> and lots of stuff is on the way, it just won't be done in time for dapper
[09:25] <LaserJock> but most of this is in hind sight, it is very hard to predict where the distro will be 6 months down the road
[09:30] <ompaul> mdke, no worries
[10:55] <Burgwork> holy crap! Canonical is going to be hiring about 24 new people int he new few months
[10:56] <crimsun> excellent.
[10:56] <LaserJock> for what?
[10:59] <Burgwork> anything and everyting
[10:59] <Burgwork> see marks blog
[11:23] <mdke> Burgwork: btw our new wiki is up. I've started writing down some things we could do before it goes live, feel free to add: https://new-help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
[11:23] <mdke> same goes for everyone else too
[11:25] <Burgwork> mdke, very cool
[11:26] <Burgwork> mdke, you should apply to canonical to lead the doc team full tie
[11:26] <Burgwork> s/tie/time
[11:26] <LaserJock> especially since you are always here anyway. Might as well get paid for it ;-)
[11:27] <mdke> Burgwork: I would quite like a job with canonical, maybe in local community or documentation, but I'm certainly tied up until september
[11:28] <mdke> i wonder if they need a lawyer
[11:28] <Burgwork> mdke, I am certain they could wait for a few months
[11:28] <mdke> heh, if they need someone to do that in the first place
[11:29] <Burgwork> mdke, you can sell yourself
[11:29] <mdke> actually, the locoteams need a bit of loving
[11:29] <mdke> it's all a bit disorganised
[11:29] <Burgwork> I don't think there is a single person on the doc team that wouldn't support you
[11:29] <mdke> awww, shucks
[11:29] <Burgwork> yes,  a full time loco team contact would be nice
[11:29] <Burgwork> you have a good mix of social and technical skills, plus dedication
[11:29] <mdke> btw, what has happened to ubuntu-ca?
[11:30] <mdke> http://www.ubuntu.ca/
[11:30] <Burgwork> ah, the current owner is MIA
[11:30] <Burgwork> we have not lost the domina, merely the DNS is screwy
[11:30] <mdke> ubuntu-ca.org is going there too
[11:30] <Burgwork> ya, I know
[11:30] <Burgwork> long story
[11:31] <LaserJock> mdke: btw, what is going to happen to Edubuntu pages when the wiki moves? This EC job has got me all Edubuntuized ;-)
[11:32] <mdke> LaserJock: what do you want to happen?
[11:32] <mdke> I'd say, the documentation can come to help.u.c, and anything community should stay
[11:33] <mdke> but obviously, these things are a matter for the edubuntu people
[11:35] <LaserJock> hmm, that might become interesting
[11:36] <LaserJock> we'll have to talk it over. it might make a dandy agenda item or the next meeting :-)
[11:36] <LaserJock> right, now wiki.edubuntu.org gives the edubuntu theme to the pages. Would that still be in place on the new wiki?
[11:37] <LaserJock> s/,//
[11:37] <Burgwork> LaserJock, are you guys not moving everything to moin anyway?
[11:38] <LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm? There is presently a decent amount of documentation on the present wiki
[11:38] <Burgwork> sorry, not moin
[11:41] <mdke> LaserJock: we haven't planned any theming for the new wiki at the moment
[11:41] <Burgwork> to drupal, or whatever the new thing is
[11:45] <LaserJock> Burgwork: haven't heard of that but it could be
[11:46] <mdke> it's a CMS
[11:47] <Burgwork> LaserJock, the thing highvoltage is working on
[11:47] <mdke> ompaul: still around?
[11:52] <LaserJock> hmm, well in the mean time we might have to figure out which, if any, of the pages should go to the new wiki
[11:54] <mdke> LaserJock: the current system is that any page with CategoryDocumentation in it is going to get moved