[12:13] <LaserJock> does anybody know how the spec process will work for Edgy? How do we know what is an edgy spec or a dapper spec or does it matter?
[12:14] <Burgwork> LaserJock, just create specs for ubuntu
[12:14] <Burgwork> they will be looked at and retargeted as needed
[12:15] <LaserJock> Burgwork: by the Ubuntu (slave) drivers? :-)
[12:16] <Burgwork> yep
[12:18] <sladen> keybuk: is udev compatible with ifplugd
[12:19] <mjg59_> sladen: No, it replaces it
[12:28] <wasabi__> There a methodology by which base packages are marked? ie needed to be bootstrapped on a new arch?
[12:29] <wasabi__> ubuntu-minimal has stuff like xfsprogs, which clearly doesn't.
[12:29] <tseng> i think the maintainer of the packages just know
[12:29] <wasabi__> Hmm. Maybe I should tear into debootstrap and see what it uses.
[12:29] <tseng> mono wasnt marked when we had to manually bootstrap it
[12:30] <wasabi__> I mean distro packages.
[12:30] <tseng> i dont see what the difference is
[12:30] <wasabi__> required for boot.
[12:30] <holycow> hey guys, anyone know if open office has logging capabilities?
[12:31] <WildTangent> Not sure if anyone is aware yet, but the latest updates seem to break the icon beside the applications menu for any icon theme other than Human, Tangerine and Tango
[12:31] <wasabi__> Heh. Looks like debootstrap has some hard coded items.
[12:31] <WildTangent> instead of the normal Ubuntu logo, i see the standard gnome foot logo
[12:31] <holycow> WildTangent, true i just noticed that too
[12:31] <holycow> i preffer the foot logo my self but for ubuntu it should be the logo *nod*
[12:31] <WildTangent> the gnome foot annoys me :)
[12:32] <wasabi__> Ahh. Priority: important
[12:32] <WildTangent> coz_ here has the same problem as I do
[12:33] <coz_> well the recent dapper updates, as of 15 minutes ago, have replaced the distributor-logo next to applications with the gnome foot. I don't hink so. How can this be changed systemically
[12:33] <LaserJock> wasabi__: probably Required+Important
[12:34] <coz_> I found that even in my own icon set the logo has been replaced 
[12:34] <WildTangent> coz_ there is no distributor-logo.png anymore besides the ones that come with the Ubuntu-made themes
[12:34] <coz_> WildTangent, it iwas in hicolor and is now gone
[12:35] <coz_> hmm need to solve this
[12:35] <WildTangent> indeed
[12:35] <WildTangent> this is quite upsetting
[12:35] <LaserJock> have you guys looked at the dapper-changes to see what the changelog says
[12:35] <LaserJock> WildTangent: I doubt there is a need to be upset :-)
[12:36] <WildTangent> perhaps Ubuntu is trying to make each theme decide its own logo...but the problem is, it doesn't seem that the theme-makers have quite caught onto this ;)
[12:36] <coz_> LaserJock, no I haven't looked and I don't hink anyone is upset just taken back by the inappropriate change
[12:36] <WildTangent> ya...and there doesn't seem to be a way for us mere mortals to fix it ;)
[12:36] <WildTangent> I've tried many things, nothing has worked
[12:37] <coz_> I am sure whoever is capable of changing this will do so soon I have great confidence in you guys look forward to the change back to the ubuntu logo for the gnome menus
[12:38] <WildTangent> where is the changelog?
[12:38] <WildTangent> i cannot find it
[12:38] <LaserJock> somewhere in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/
[12:38] <Burgwork> WildTangent, file a bug against the tangerine icon theme
[12:40] <WildTangent> Burgwork: how are you sure that Tangerine is the problem? I've already stated that the icons in Human, Tangerine, and Tango all work, its the icons in 3rd party themes included with Gnome, and downloaded from places like gnome-looks.org that dont display the correct logo
[12:40] <WildTangent> they worked before the update, but now they dont
[12:41] <LaserJock> WildTangent: look at what packages were updated
[12:42] <WildTangent> I am trying, but your changelog is hard to navigate
[12:43] <LaserJock> WildTangent: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-May/date.html
[12:43] <Burgwork> WildTangent, then the issue is not an Ubuntu one
[12:43] <LaserJock> and if you used aptitude or synaptic look at the history
[12:44] <WildTangent> Burgwork: it is obviously an Ubuntu issue...this problem did not surface until immediately after the updates
[12:44] <WildTangent> others have confirmed this
[12:44] <WildTangent> they have the exact same problem as I do
[12:45] <LaserJock> but the question might be if it was an upstream thing or whether it was an accident, etc.
[12:46] <WildTangent> tangerine-icon-theme (0.12-0ubuntu1) to 0.13-0ubuntu1, tango-icon-theme (0.7.2-0ubuntu2) to 0.7.2-0ubuntu3, tango-icon-theme-common (0.1-0ubuntu1) to 0.2-0ubuntu1, ubuntu-artwork (18) to 20
[12:47] <WildTangent> those are the theme updates today
[12:47] <WildTangent> all ubuntu packages
[12:48] <LaserJock> ok, so then you can find them on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-May/date.html and look at the changelog
[12:48] <WildTangent> latest i can find for tango was may 11
[12:48] <Burgwork> WildTangent, tomorrow, as dholbach about it. He does all the icon stuff
[12:49] <LaserJock> WildTangent: ok, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-May/010964.html and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-May/010976.html
[12:50] <WildTangent> thankyou
[12:51] <WildTangent> nothing looks suspect in there...maybe this was an unintentional mistake
[12:51] <WildTangent> in either case, it needs to be fixed :)
[12:51] <LaserJock> WildTangent: so go file a bug :-)
[12:51] <WildTangent> I shall
[01:01] <olafura> I'm just wondering why libvisual plugins aren't appart of the gstreamer0.10-plugins-base in dapper?
[01:01] <Burgwork> olafura, you need to talk to slomo__ 
[01:02] <Burgwork> olafura, I would also check launchpad for any bugs
[01:14] <robertj_> is it just me or do the new java distribution terms for distros look very _ugly_
[01:14] <robertj_> especially  - Ship only a compatible JDK on your OS
[01:15] <wasabi__> Very few packages have pure binary-indep support that's optimized eh
[01:27] <ajmitch> morning
[01:27] <BlueT_at_Mars> morning :)
[02:23] <CarlFK> Kamion: install kernel append .... preseed/url=http://foo/bar - that creates a var preseed/url - how can I wget that?  (the / screws up $preseed/url)
[03:02] <joelbryan> hello, anyone know why pessulus isn't included in dapper?
[03:06] <Burgundavia> joelbryan, it is part of the admin stuff, and thus is not shipped by default
[03:06] <Burgundavia> joelbryan, it is a great tool, but not one that everybody needs
[03:06] <joelbryan> ah
[03:06] <joelbryan> it's a great app
[03:07] <joelbryan> Burgundavia: I thought the reason was it has a epiphany tab by default, which really easy to fix
[03:09] <Burgundavia> nope
[03:15] <wasabi__> libc failed on arm. =(
[03:15] <wasabi__> that was quick.
[03:45] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:57] <jsgotangco> good morning
[04:04] <bddebian> Heya jsgotangco
[04:20] <bddebian> Anyone know aobut the libmysqlclient update?
[05:09] <desrt> big bad dapper bug!!!
[05:10] <desrt> if multiple users are logged in when you plugin a usb storage device then the 'wrong one' mounts it and gains sole permission to it
[05:10] <desrt> my sister tried to load up her mp3 player with my other sister logged in in the background
[05:11] <KaiL> I guess, the one logged in first gets it?
[05:11] <desrt> actually, it's a crapshoot
[05:11] <desrt> but the one logged in first seems to have a statistical advantage
[05:12] <KaiL> the tools in the background (same problem for sound!) doesn't get any information, that a session is locked/disabled...
[05:13] <KaiL> that's not a normal bug, that's just missing design...
[05:23] <desrt> ya
[05:23] <desrt> seriously
[05:40] <Burgundavia> desrt, I wonder if this is a pam_foreground bug
[05:41] <desrt> such a thing exists?
[05:41] <Burgundavia> such a total shot int eh dark
[05:45] <desrt> the best thing i can think of is for g-v-m to check /var/run/console to make sure that the current vt belongs to the logged-in user
[05:49] <Burgundavia> desrt, talk to mjg59_ as this is a solved issue
[05:49] <desrt> not really
[05:49] <desrt> mjg59 solved it for power management via dbus
[05:50] <desrt> mounting of hotplugged storage occurs by execing pmount (setuid), not over dbus
[05:53] <Burgundavia> does lib_pamforeground not solve the "whose is currently in control of this computer" issue?
[05:54] <desrt> this isn't really a pam thing, though
[05:54] <desrt> unless the change it made to pmount....
[06:21] <desrt> Burgundavia; sorry.  you were right.
[06:21] <desrt> Burgundavia; there is definitely code in place to deal with this
[06:22] <desrt> Burgundavia; for some reason it does not work
[06:23] <Burgundavia> desrt, see, my totally non-technical knowledge pays off
[06:23] <desrt> ahah
[06:23] <desrt> the effected computer is probably running the old version
[06:23] <desrt> the fix went in just a few days ago
[06:23] <desrt> thank god.. i can now go to sleep at a reasonable hour tonight :)
[06:26] <desrt> ew.
[06:26] <desrt> *affected
[06:26] <desrt> anyway.  thanks.  goodnight.
[06:30] <wasabi_> There we go.
[06:30] <wasabi_> Compiling Ubuntu on Debian/ARM in qemu using distcc with a cross compiling toolchain to my fast machine.
[06:58] <wasabi_> http://news.com.com/Sun+flirts+with+Ubuntu/2100-7344_3-6073104.html?tag=nefd.top
[06:58] <wasabi_> Now that's interesting.
[07:01] <jsgotangco> yeah
[07:11] <desrt> maybe sun could be friendly back and license their jvm so that ubuntu was actually able to ship it
[07:12] <desrt> it'll be cute when sun is shipping an OS on their servers that is not legally able to include sun's own platform
[07:13] <wasabi_> They have.
[07:13] <wasabi_> apt-get install sun-j2sdk or something
[07:13] <wasabi_> it's there right now.
[07:13] <desrt> in universe, multiverse?
[07:13] <wasabi_> good question
[07:14] <wasabi_> multiverse
[07:14] <wasabi_> But it is finally packaged properly.
[07:14] <desrt> that's nice
[07:15] <wasabi_> I'm a bit disappointed actually.
[07:15] <wasabi_> I really like GCJ/kaffe. ;)
[07:15] <desrt> gcj is quite elite.
[07:15] <desrt> gcj is officially what makes java better than c#
[07:15] <wasabi_> Heh. WHy do you say that?
[07:15] <desrt> native code
[07:15] <wasabi_> C# has the same.
[07:15] <desrt> no need for a runtime environment
[07:15] <wasabi_> Done in pretty much the same way.
[07:16] <wasabi_> gcj still has a runtime environment.
[07:16] <wasabi_> In fact, for EJB, and servlets, it's pretty much neccassary.
[07:16] <desrt> well, you need a GC, etc...
[07:17] <desrt> but i mean no virtual machine
[07:17] <desrt> it has a runtime in the sense that ghc-compiled executables do
[07:17] <wasabi_> Well... Dunno what you mean by no virtual machine. It's a very fine line.
[07:17] <wasabi_> GCJ needs to be able to compile java code and bytecode on the fly.
[07:17] <wasabi_> To compile servlets and applets on the fly.
[07:17] <wasabi_> And runtime bytecode generation.
[07:18] <wasabi_> At the end of the day, they're all just generating bits of machine language and linking them together on the fly.
[07:18] <wasabi_> Or reading pre-built bits off the disk.
[07:18] <wasabi_> C# has a precompilation thing. Basically just plugs in and circumvents the JIT.
[07:19] <desrt> anyway.  time for bed.
[07:19] <desrt> see you.
[07:34] <jsgotangco> glatzor: ping
[07:34] <glatzor> hi jsgotangco!
[07:35] <jsgotangco> glatzor: hey, i don't think we can do so much for the u-m guide now
[07:35] <jsgotangco> the current u-m is so different
[07:35] <Burgundavia> u-m?
[07:36] <glatzor> Burgundavia: update-manager
[07:36] <glatzor> THe manual covers update-manager and the software properties
[07:36] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:37] <glatzor> that's a pity.
[07:39] <jsgotangco> well its my fault too i didnt look at it that much, but since both u-m and software propterties are separate now, the guide is really outdated
[07:39] <glatzor> jsgotangco: I will take a detailed look at the manual
[07:40] <jsgotangco> ok the current u-m only has 4 buttons
[07:43] <glatzor> jsgotangco: update-manager istn't the problem. it only needs some minor changes and updated screenshots
[07:43] <glatzor> but the software-properties are slightly out of date :)
[07:43] <glatzor> I could perhaps fix this today, since I am going to stay at home today (bike accident).
[07:44] <glatzor> jsgotangco: Burgundavia: you would agree to a freeze breakage exception?
[07:44] <jsgotangco> glatzor: oh
[07:46] <jsgotangco> as long as we can still upload i think its ok, there's a scheduled flight 8 this friday
[07:46] <crimsun> jsgotangco: (no, that was cancelled.)
[07:46] <jsgotangco> ahh
[07:47] <crimsun> mandatory holiday and all
[07:59] <glatzor> has anybody seen his screen turning yellow recently? 
[07:59] <glatzor> mine is nearly complete in yellow
[08:04] <pitti> Good morning!
[08:04] <crimsun> 'morning :)
[08:04] <jsgotangco> glatzor: yeah that was a known issue, but i belive its tagged as fixed
[08:10] <glatzor> ok
[08:13] <Gloubiboulga> hello
[08:38] <sivang> morning all
[08:41] <ajmitch> hi
[08:44] <pitti> infinity: bug 39484 can be closed now, right?
[08:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 39484 in samba "cups smb printing backend no longer works" [Major,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39484
[08:44] <pitti> infinity: I'll upload the fix for another major printing regression now and then will do a new round of cupsys bug triage and call for testing
[08:50] <hendry> does Ubuntu prompt for a screen res when configuring X or is that Debian
[08:51] <Seveas> ubuntu only does that for wonky graphics setups where it can't be detected automatically
[08:52] <jsgotangco> heya sabdfl 
[08:56] <glatzor> jsgotangco: I would like to keep software-properties and update-manager in one document
[08:56] <glatzor> but I am unsure.
[08:58] <glatzor> jsgotangco: one again yellow :/
[08:59] <infinity> pitti: Yes, there are a mess of bugs I need to close now.
[09:00] <pitti> infinity: yay
[09:03] <ivoks> phew... cups is back on track again :)
[09:04] <pygi> ivoks, heh, CUPS 1.2 on Kubuntu? :)
[09:05] <ivoks> pygi: CUPS 1.2 upstream :)
[09:05] <pygi> ivoks, eh :)
[09:06] <pitti> ivoks: yay upstream patch for the octet-stream printing :)
[09:07] <dholbach> heya pitti!
[09:07] <pitti> ivoks: as soon as my flatmate went out of bed, I'l grab him for testing and then I'll upload the fix
[09:07] <infinity> s/went/gets/
[09:07] <ivoks> :)
[09:07] <pitti> infinity: right, thanks
[09:07] <ivoks> pitti: yeah, that patch fixed IPP
[09:08] <infinity> pitti: You're the only person I know who actually wants his english corrected, so I'd be remiss if I didn't do so. :)
[09:08] <ivoks> but SMB is fishy... i won't say anything untill i test it
[09:08] <hendry> where should I send failed installation logs to?
[09:08] <pitti> ivoks: which direction? the cups -> windows print server direction should have been fixed yesterday (thanks to infinity)
[09:09] <ivoks> i need computer with working windows :/
[09:09] <pitti> infinity: or do you mean windows client to cups server over smb?
[09:09] <infinity> Wrong "i" nick.
[09:09] <ivoks> pitti: i get access denied on printer, but it could be config issue
[09:09] <infinity> Access denied sounds a lot better than segfaults...
[09:09] <pitti> infinity: I should really get breakfast before doing anything serious...
[09:09] <ivoks> :)
[09:10] <infinity> It's like I get a whole new OS when I wake up and upgrade every morning.
[09:10] <pitti> did they change again?
[09:11] <infinity> My Audio CD icon changed, and the connect types for NetworkManager got new icons.  Not sure what else.
[09:11] <Burgundavia> infinity, grumble. UI freeze has come and gone
[09:11] <pitti> also, did the System menu get shorter yesterday? I don't actually miss anything, but I have the feeling something was dropped
[09:12] <crimsun> (I do like the new network monitor icons)
[09:12] <pitti> oh, I know! "Lock screen" -- /me looks at dholbach
[09:12] <infinity> Yeah, lock screen went away.  And those icons keep changing too.
[09:12] <infinity> Log out is completely different today.
[09:12] <infinity> And had a computer with a power off button.  Hrm.  Mixed signals much? :)
[09:13] <dholbach> pitti: hu?
[09:13] <pitti> dholbach: moo
[09:14] <dholbach> they are going to change
[09:14] <infinity> pitti: I expect we're meant to lock the screen from the logoff menu now.
[09:14] <dholbach> and some icons might not be in the right place - I had to transition to use icon-naming-utils
[09:14] <dholbach> I'm not happy about it, but that's the way it is -- you can poke me or file a bug if something is wrong / feels wrong
[09:15] <pitti> dholbach: putting 'lock screen' behind an icon with a power switch is even worse than putting 'change user' behind it...
[09:15] <pitti> hey seb128 
[09:15] <seb128> hello pitti
[09:15] <pitti> dholbach: aside from that, it's an extra click
[09:15] <pitti> and the System menu isn't exactly crowded...
[09:15] <dholbach> pitti: it will change - bug is known, removing lockscreen was Mark's decision
[09:16] <infinity> If the recycle icon weren't already used for garbage/trash, it would be the ideal icon for "switch user/reboot/log out"... Too bad, really.
[09:16] <infinity> The whole feel of "recycling the computer" would work well.  Damn Microsoft for turing that into a "deleted files" logo for everyone.
[09:17] <dholbach> pitti: "Do something"
[09:17] <pitti> "Make it so!"
[09:17] <infinity> Why not get rid of the panel and menus altogether, and just have a huge icon in the middle of the desktop labelled "use computer"?
[09:17] <pygi> lol
[09:17] <dholbach> way to go
[09:18] <infinity> Can someone upload that change to edgy on June 2nd? :)
[09:18] <pygi> :-P
[09:18] <ivoks> pitti: well...
[09:18] <ivoks> pitti: printing works, but windows says "Access denied, unable to connect"
[09:18] <pygi> Argh, windows again :-/
[09:19] <infinity> ivoks: Err...
[09:19] <infinity> ivoks: It prints *and* says access denied?
[09:19] <pitti> ivoks: erm, you mean printing from the windows box works? or just in genereal, i. e. locally?
[09:19] <ivoks> right
[09:19] <ivoks> from windows to cups1.2 works (ipp and smb)
[09:19] <infinity> Maybe Windows is trying to view the spool and hasn't enough permissions to do that?
[09:19] <ivoks> but smb says Access denied, unable to connect
[09:19] <infinity> (Hence the access denied)
[09:19] <ivoks> could be
[09:20] <ivoks> i don't do printing over samba very often :)
[09:20] <infinity> Okay, quick, someone tell me how to setup a null printer (print to postscript or something) in CUPS.
[09:20] <infinity> I can test the Windows->SMB->CUPS stuff here.
[09:20] <infinity> But I have no printer. :)
[09:22] <ivoks> i could be my windows broken...
[09:22] <ivoks> s/^i/it
[09:23] <ivoks> lol
[09:23] <ivoks> after restart it says Ready
[09:24] <seb128> pitti: turn /apps/panel/global/upstream_session, restart your panel, be happy ;)
[09:24] <pygi> ivoks, windows = always broken :)
[09:24] <ivoks> but doesn't print :)
[09:24] <ivoks> omg
[09:25] <Treenaks> seb128: I LOVE YOU!
[09:25] <infinity> Holy crap, "reading printer database" takes forever...
[09:26] <infinity> (Can you tell this is the first time I've ever run gnome-cups-admin?)
[09:26] <seb128> Treenaks: lol, no need of that much but thank you ;)
[09:26] <infinity> Oh, and that was useless anyway.
[09:26] <Treenaks> seb128: If I'd know of that gconf key earlier.. :)
[09:26] <Treenaks> +n
[09:27] <seb128> Treenaks: reading the ChangeLog entries is useful :p
[09:27] <Treenaks> seb128: sometimes there are too many
[09:27] <pitti> infinity: you can create an arbitrary printer and then change printers.conf manually; the file:/// destination is disabled by default for some reason
[09:29] <janimo> bug 45180
[09:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45180 in xubuntu-live "After install xubuntu from live cd, xubuntu-live package is also installed" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/45180
[09:29] <hendry> my fresh install of Ubuntu's time is wrong. How do i fix it?
[09:29] <janimo> is that normal, just not seen with ubuntu/kubuntu because they don;t ship more language support packs?
[09:29] <hendry> when i run ntpdate, it says "no servers can be used"
[09:30] <pygi> janimo, no, that shouldnt be there
[09:30] <infinity> pitti: Hrm, cups-pdf seemed to be precisely what I wanted, but doesn't actually do anything.
[09:31] <infinity> pitti: Does it need updating to work with cups 1.2?
[09:31] <pitti> infinity: cups-pdf iz broken
[09:31] <janimo> pygi: so ubuntu-live is not on an ubiquity installed system?
[09:31] <ivoks> you need to run cups as root for that
[09:31] <pitti> infinity: bug 36093
[09:31] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36093 in cups-pdf "needs to be fixed to work with cupsd running as non-root" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/36093
[09:32] <infinity> pitti: Ahh.  How do I mangle cups to run as root?  Init script?
[09:32] <pitti> infinity: luckily, Mike Sweet already started implementing native PDF support for cups
[09:32] <pygi> janimo, well, ubuntu-live *and therefore xubuntu-live* shouldnt be there after installation
[09:32] <pitti> infinity: Mike removed the RunAsUser option in 1.2, so you can't any more
[09:32] <ivoks> he did?
[09:32] <janimo> pygi: ok thanks
[09:32] <pygi> janimo, that bug for ubuntu-live was fixed I think
[09:32] <mdke> hendry: #ubuntu or #ubuntu+1
[09:32] <ivoks> oh my
[09:32] <pitti> (that was a very bad idea, yes...)
[09:32] <infinity> Oh.  Fun.
[09:32] <pitti> infinity: in his opinion, RunAsUser was unsafe, and distros should rather use SELinux and the like
[09:32] <pitti> lol
[09:33] <ivoks> i guess he never tried to use selinux :)
[09:33] <janimo> Kamion: is it ubiquity that has to be told not to install xubuntu-live?
[09:33] <pitti> infinity: ah, edit /etc/cups/cupsd.conf and add 'FileDevice Yes'
[09:34] <ivoks> afaict my smb.conf is ok, but it's access denied and it prints
[09:34] <Gloubiboulga> janimo, hi, I have casper and ubiquity packages installed on the HD too
[09:34] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: hi, ok let's see what the desktop CD people say
[09:34] <pitti> infinity: then you can create an arbitrary printer (preferably with Generic/PostScript driver) in gnome-cups-add and then change printers.conf 
[09:34] <pygi> Gloubiboulga, ergh, I thought that bug was fixed
[09:34] <pygi> from what live cd?
[09:35] <Gloubiboulga> may 15th IIRC
[09:35] <janimo> pygi: it may not have been for xubuntu if an explicit blacklist of some sort is needed
[09:35] <Gloubiboulga> I can trry with a more recent live cd
[09:35] <pygi> Gloubiboulga, no need.
[09:35] <pygi> jamesh, indeed
[09:35] <looksaus> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/40067
[09:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40067 in firefox "firefox freezes after a few secs on ppc" [Normal,Confirmed]  
[09:36] <looksaus> what else can I do to find out more information about this one so the bug can be rooted out?
[09:36] <pygi> janimo, have you tracked bug like that for Ubuntu on launchpad?
[09:36] <pygi> perhaps there is an explanation
[09:37] <janimo> pygi: I was not aware of such a bug till this morning when Gloubiboulga reported it
[09:37] <looksaus> I'm willing to setup a vnc server or something for a developer to check remotely
[09:37] <infinity> pitti: Hrm, no dice.  When I try to print a test page, it just sits there with "Printing 1 Jobs" (yay, badly formatted strings) and doesn't spit anything out to the file.
[09:38] <looksaus> I'm getting a bit scared that this problem might still be there with the Dapper release
[09:38] <pygi> janimo, hm, I can try tracking it down later if you want
[09:38] <pitti> infinity: anything in /var/log/cups/error_log?
[09:38] <pitti> infinity: did you set the destination to somewhere in /tmp?
[09:38] <ivoks> pitti: also, printing/browsing/everything works fine with 1.1<->1.2
[09:38] <janimo> pygi: thanks, if we don;t get a clarification on irc this morning
[09:38] <infinity> E [17/May/2006:17:36:17 +1000]  [Job 1]  No %%BoundingBox: comment in header!
[09:39] <infinity> pitti: Yeah, I just copied and pasted your stuff from above. :)
[09:39] <infinity> pitti: Looks like it doesn't like the job itself.  Awesome.
[09:40] <pitti> infinity: hm, that works fine for me
[09:40] <infinity> Hrm.  My DeviceURI got over written...
[09:40] <infinity> Weird
[09:40] <pitti> infinity: I grabbed a postscript file, created a file:/// printer 'f' and did 'lp -d f /home/martin/latex/test/formel.ps'
[09:42] <ivoks> hm...
[09:42] <pitti> ivoks: darn, none of my flatmates is at home and I don't know their windows passwords; if you confirm that the patch really fixes octet-strem, I'll just upload it
[09:42] <ivoks> smbd[14535] :   astro (192.168.0.101) couldn't find service ::{2227a280-3aea-1069-a2de-08002b30309d}
[09:42] <ivoks> pitti: it does for IPP, but i'm not 100% sure this is everything needed to get SMB printing back on track
[09:43] <ivoks> pitti: windows passwords? :))
[09:43] <pitti> ivoks: alright, then let's test and rock
[09:43] <ivoks> pitti: that's easy...
[09:43] <ivoks> pitti: i'm sure none of them has password for 'Administrator' account
[09:43] <infinity> pitti: Okay, got that sorted.  Now to test from Windows...
[09:43] <pitti> ivoks: I don't know the Windows equivalent of 'init=/bin/bash' :)
[09:44] <ivoks> pitti: on login screen, hit ctrl+alt+del twice
[09:44] <pitti> ivoks: they have, and they don't work as admin. Just because they are *my* flatmates :)
[09:44] <ivoks> pitti: and enter Administrator for username, blank password
[09:44] <ivoks> pitti: works in 99% of cases :D
[09:44] <ivoks> if it's XP
[09:47] <ivoks> so, java is going open source after all? says Shwartz
[09:48] <janimo> pitti, sorry to bring this up again, but is there a chance to consider a separate evince-gtk source pkg for main?
[09:48] <janimo> doing it withing evince proper is too instrusive
[09:48] <janimo> and I have cleaned up the package FWIW so it's almost like the evince one
[09:49] <infinity> pitti: Okay, same results.  A WinXP test page printed fine, but the spool viewer claims lack of rights to the printer.
[09:49] <janimo> otherwise an alternative would be another app in main (epdfview) but evince is more tested
[09:49] <pygi> ivoks, indeed, just we dont know which licence yet
[09:49] <infinity> pitti: I'll poke at that.
[09:49] <pygi> ivoks, perhaps "Sun Open Source Licence" :-D
[09:49] <ivoks> infinity: imho, this is samba issue
[09:49] <janimo> another alternative is no doc viewer at all in default install
[09:49] <infinity> ivoks: Perhaps, but I don't recall ever having this issue before.
[09:50] <ivoks> me too
[09:50] <ivoks> infinity: smbd[14535] :   astro (192.168.0.101) couldn't find service ::{2227a280-3aea-1069-a2de-08002b30309d}
[09:50] <ivoks> infinity: that's only error i get in logs
[09:50] <crimsun> janimo: just considering security, I'd vote for no doc viewer by default to avoid yet more source to fix
[09:51] <infinity> pitti: Should I be concerned about all the "cupsdAuthorize: Local authentication certificate not found!" in the log file?
[09:51] <janimo> crimsun: right, althoug most flaws are in poppler not the viewver itslef no?
[09:51] <infinity> ivoks: In which log are you seeing that?
[09:51] <crimsun> janimo: hmm, yes
[09:51] <ivoks> infinity: syslog (i redirected samba logs in syslog, and set syslog level to 256)
[09:52] <ivoks> infinity: astro is a client machine
[09:52] <infinity> pitti: Also, cupsd complains repeatedly about not being able to open access_log.
[09:52] <ivoks> infinity: certificate is cause it trys SSL first
[09:52] <ivoks> tries
[09:52] <janimo> crimsun: and the slight advantage over this kind of duplication is that you fix the same thing, whereas with a totally different app you may have a new flaw altogether
[09:53] <infinity> pitti: Hrm, which could be because it was created as root...
[09:53] <janimo> s/over/of/
[09:56] <infinity> ivoks: Okay, as I thought.  The "Access Denied" is because WinXP is probing to see if it can admin the remote print spool.
[09:57] <infinity> ivoks: Adding "printer admin = @lpadmin" to my smb.conf, doing "adduser testuser lpadmin", and restarting samba made the error go away.
[09:58] <ivoks> infinity: right...
[09:58] <infinity> ivoks: Either way, with or without that error, I can print to the printer just fine.  The error seems to only relate to spool manipulation, not job creation.
[09:58] <infinity> pitti: ^^^
[09:58] <ivoks> infinity: but... you know what's funny
[09:58] <ivoks> infinity: after restart it's Ready and doesn't print
[09:58] <ivoks> so... i don't know should i laugh or cry
[09:59] <infinity> ivoks: Okay, that's bizarre.  On mine, it's "Ready" and prints fine. :)
[10:00] <ivoks> i really hope vista will have IPP browsing
[10:01] <infinity> pitti: Do you think I should change the default SMB config to suggest using "printer admin = @lpadmin" (commented out, of course), so people can figure this one out? :)
[10:01] <infinity> ivoks: AFAICT, Microsoft is moving 100% to IPP, so I assume it will.
[10:01] <infinity> ivoks: SMB printing has always been a hideous hack, and I'm sure they'll be glad to drop it and move on.
[10:01] <ivoks> finally
[10:02] <infinity> ivoks: The fact that SMB printing requires local drivers on the client machine is a big non-starter.  How it survived this long, I'll never know.
[10:03] <ivoks> infinity: i allwayes hated smb printing :/
[10:03] <ivoks> always
[10:03] <infinity> ivoks: So does every NT admin (me included) that I've ever known.
[10:03] <infinity> It's not just doing it via samba that sucks, doing it on NT server is just as bad.
[10:04] <infinity> "What do you mean I need to have client print drivers for each printer on every single workstation?  For how many operating systems on how many architectures?  Say what now?"
[10:04] <ivoks> infinity: um... can you please restart your windows and try printing again?
[10:04] <morgs_> hiya, if flight7 ubiquity failed to resize an ext3 partition and created a zero-length partition, where should I log the bug? Is it ubiquity or gparted or...?
[10:04] <ivoks> infinity: it just doesn't work here :(
[10:05] <infinity> ivoks: Alright, I have to save some stuff my girlfriend was mangling in Photoshop... 'Sec.
[10:05] <ivoks>  WARNING: The "printer admin" option is deprecated
[10:05] <ivoks> oh, lol
[10:07] <dholbach> heya mvo!
[10:08] <mvo> hey dholbach
[10:08] <pygi> ivoks, nice :)
[10:08] <infinity>               This  parameter  has  been marked deprecated in favor of using the SePrintOperator
[10:09] <infinity>               Privilege and individual print security descriptors. It will be removed in a future
[10:09] <infinity>               release.
[10:09] <seb128> hi dholbach
[10:10] <seb128> mdke: around?
[10:10] <looksaus> why does my ppc ibook have a sun-java5-jre package, while it doesn't have a sun-java5-bin?
[10:10] <dholbach> hi seb128!
[10:12] <Kamion> janimo: yes, it's a ubiquity thing, but it should be done automatically by the stuff we put in place ages ago; I've asked for more information
[10:13] <seb128> dholbach: ups, I'm too used to type your name, I was thinking "hi mvo" ;)
[10:13] <Kamion> morgs_: was this the automatic "resize <partition> and use free space" option, or did you go to "manually partition" and choose to resize something there?
[10:14] <Kamion> janimo: by the way, are you aware that Xubuntu live filesystem builds have been failing for some time? see e.g. http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/liveLogs/dapper/xubuntu/latest/livecd-20060517-i386.out
[10:14] <Kamion> xubuntu-docs is failing to install
[10:14] <infinity> I was just about to mention that. :)
[10:14] <morgs_> Kamion: it was a couple of days ago, and I rebooted since then so I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the automatic option.
[10:15] <morgs_> Kamion: I'm just trying to repair my hda1, if I can fix it I'll try again to duplicate the problem.
[10:15] <Kamion> morgs_: then ubiquity; please attach /var/log/installer/syslog and /var/log/installer/partman to the bug report
[10:15] <morgs_> Kamion: OK
[10:15] <Kamion> (please do that before potentially trashing the disk :-))
[10:16] <ivoks> pitti: i see you are in upload mood :) maybe to upload that addition for g-c-m, so translators have time to translate it? :)
[10:17] <morgs_> Kamion: somehow my hda1 partition (ext3) shows as ext3 in cfdisk, fdisk etc but in gparted it shows as "unknown". If I try mount it I get a bad superblock or missing filesystem... so perhaps it's already trashed. Unfortunately I rebooted after the installation attempt so I lost the logs.
[10:17] <looksaus> hm, there is a sun-java5-jre package on ppc, but no sun-java5-bin
[10:17] <pygi> looksaus, use #ubuntu
[10:18] <looksaus> k
[10:18] <looksaus> pygi, oops, told this twice in the same channel, sorry
[10:18] <infinity> ivoks: Printing (and spool admin) still works after a reboot of the XP machine.
[10:18] <infinity> ivoks: Looks like your problem is local. :/
[10:19] <ivoks> infinity: great :)
[10:19] <ivoks> infinity: yeah... windows doesn't even try to connect to my share after reboot... if it's just me, thats great
[10:20] <Kamion> morgs_: cfdisk/fdisk are showing the partition type code; gparted is actually scanning the contents
[10:20] <ivoks> infinity: sorry for unneeded reboot :/
[10:20] <Kamion> morgs_: what vintage of live CD was this?
[10:20] <infinity> ivoks: S'ok.  I just hate rebooting my girlfriend's machine when she's not home. ;)
[10:20] <infinity> ivoks: I'll be sure to blame you when she asks.
[10:20] <AnAnt> may someone help me with creating a package ?
[10:20] <AnAnt> I used pbuilder to create elinks-0.11.1 package 
[10:20] <morgs_> Kamion: flight 7
[10:20] <ivoks> infinity: oh no! lucky my, i'm so far far away :)
[10:20] <infinity> AnAnt: -> #ubuntu-motu
[10:21] <infinity> AnAnt: Also, the last two weeks before release may be the wrong time to be asking people to help mentor you.
[10:21] <AnAnt> but it called it elinks_0.11-0.0upstream.deb
[10:21] <AnAnt> infinity: huh ? what release are u talking about ?
[10:21] <AnAnt> what two weeks ?
[10:21] <infinity> AnAnt: Dapper.  Releases in 2 weeks.  We're busily working on that.
[10:22] <ivoks> AnAnt: we'll talk in #ubuntu-motu
[10:22] <AnAnt> oh, ok
[10:22] <AnAnt> well, maybe u can include that latest elinks package in it 
[10:23] <ivoks> ok
[10:23] <pygi> AnAnt, no,we cant
[10:23] <ivoks> then, AFAICT cups is done
[10:23] <ivoks> yay1
[10:24] <pitti> ivoks: mvo prepared the package yesterday, I hope we can get it uploaded now or today
[10:24] <ivoks> pitti: ok
[10:24] <AnAnt> pygi: is there some process for it ?
[10:24] <pitti> mvo: good morning!
[10:24] <pygi> AnAnt, well, you cant get packages in just 2 weeks before a release
[10:25] <AnAnt> pygi: np, I was kidding about that
[10:25] <mvo> pitti: hello, its on people.u.c (ubuntu7.2)
[10:25] <mvo> ivoks: we changed it so that browsing and shareing are independant options
[10:26] <Kamion> AnAnt: the process involves turning up at least a month ago; we look forward to your time machine :)
[10:26] <ivoks> mvo: ok... it makes sense and that's what i wanted first
[10:27] <AnAnt> Kamion: np, it can be in the one after, right ?
[10:27] <ivoks> mvo: but it's kind of misleading for users that don't know cups very well :)
[10:27] <mvo> ivoks: cool, can you test the new souce too (its only deb-src currently) please? 
[10:27] <ivoks> mvo: sure
[10:27] <pygi> AnAnt, indeed
[10:28] <mvo> pitti: blast, sorry. I have not yet uploaded the change from "Detect LAN printers" to "Detect/advertise LAN printers" :/
[10:29] <ivoks> :)
[10:29] <AnAnt> pygi: I meant, how/where to submit it ?
[10:29] <ivoks> nice touch
[10:30] <pygi> AnAnt, any packaging questions --> #ubuntu-motu :)
[10:31] <AnAnt> ok
[10:33] <pitti> ivoks: we should keep the code easy at this stage of the release, and some people might actually want to just open cups for windows clients (which doesn't need browsing)
[10:35] <ivoks> pitti: i understand, i even like the idea :) but we should document that (since CUPS it self doesn't have very straightforward documentation)
[10:35] <pitti> ivoks: I agree; 
[10:38] <ivoks> pitti: what are other plans for automatic printing spec?
[10:38] <ivoks> pitti: sharing printers could be easily expaned to SMB (printing = cups; printing = none)
[10:38] <pitti> ivoks: let's consider that post-release :)
[10:39] <ivoks> pitti: so i guess, for edgy we have sharing covered
[10:39] <ivoks> pitti: of course that's for post-release :)
[10:39] <pitti> ivoks: but in short, cups 1.2 has dbus support now, so we should tie this into the gui
[10:39] <ivoks> i see, for local autodetection
[10:39] <pitti> ivoks: i. e. plugging in a new printer should spawn g-cups-add or something even simpler automatically if the printer is not yet configured
[10:39] <ivoks> right
[10:39] <ivoks> that could be done for edgy
[10:40] <pitti> yes, I hope so
[10:40] <pitti> we'll drop gnome-cups-manager, too
[10:40] <pitti> it's abandoned upstream and pretty buggy, so we'll switch to eggcups or whatever; I didn't deal with that yet, though
[10:40] <ivoks> ok
[10:43] <pitti> hi mdz
[10:43] <mdz> hi
[10:46] <seb128> hey mdz
[10:47] <infinity> mdz: 'Morning.  I finally got that OOo build to die in the same spot... But not with a SIGABRT this time, instead with an illegal insn.
[10:47] <infinity> mdz: (Died overnight, haven't played with it yet, just saw the log)
[10:47] <mdz> infinity: curiouser and curiouser. how?
[10:47] <mdz> was just pulling down the source to play with that now that I have bandwidth
[10:48] <infinity> mdz: No idea "how", really.  Just a by-hand reproduction of the LP-buildd process, unpack-chroot, mount stuff inside, upgrade, sbuild...
[10:48] <mdz> infinity: but you said you tried that before and couldn't reproduce it
[10:48] <infinity> Which I'd done previously too, but maybe I missed something the last time (the only difference that pops to mind is /dev/pts being mounted... Not sure I want to kill another 6 hours testing that theory, but I can)
[10:49] <ivoks> bye all
[10:49] <infinity> mdz: Last time, I did it very by hand.  This time, I used the lp-buildd scripts.
[10:49] <mdz> I see
[10:49] <infinity> mdz: Like I said, the only thing that I /think/ would be different is /dev/pts, but that makes no sense to me (how that could lead to a sigabrt or illegal insn)
[10:50] <infinity> Anyhow, I'm poking more today in the background as I do other stuff.
[10:50] <mdke> seb128: sort of
[10:51] <seb128> mdke: would changing gaim to not open the "create account" on first startup would be an issue for documentation team?
[10:51] <mdke> seb128: no
[10:51] <mdke> seb128: lemme check something quickly
[10:51] <seb128> mdke: it's sort of useless, it got stacked behind the account list one which add an obvious "add" button
[10:51] <infinity> And this is the part where I scream because I realise my .sbuildrc had $purge_build_directory="always" in it...
[10:51] <seb128> mdke: they don't open if with gaim 2.0beta3, I want to do that change for dapper too
[10:51] <mdke> seb128: no problem
[10:52] <seb128> mdke: ok, thank you
[10:53] <Usiu> Hi
[10:54] <Usiu> /usr/bin/cdebootstrap
[10:54] <Usiu> E: Unknown suite dapper
[10:54] <Usiu> any help ?
[10:54] <Usiu> Laurens_S, are You a developer?
[10:55] <Kamion> use debootstrap instead; we've never made cdebootstrap work properly with Ubuntu
[10:55] <Laurens_S> no, just lurking - if that's in apropriate, I'lll leave
[10:55] <Kamion> Laurens_S: lurking is fine
[10:56] <pitti> mvo: so you will wait for ivok's test results before uploading gcm?
[10:56] <Laurens_S> ok
[10:56] <sladen> mdz: when "next week" does your manual uploads monitoring kick in?
[10:56] <mdz> sladen: deliberately unspecified
[10:56] <mdz> sladen: if there's something you're planning on landing, it should have been in already
[10:57] <mdz> the last two weeks should be entirely release prep
[10:58] <sladen> only bug-fixes
[10:59] <mvo> pitti: do we have the ok from the release team?
[11:00] <pitti> mvo: doc team said yes, Colin too
[11:00] <pitti> mvo: let's ask mdz, too
[11:00] <infinity> mdz: What about universe?  Slightly more liberal there still?
[11:01] <pitti> mdz: we have a small gnome-cups-manager patch which adds a 'Share local printers' menu option. This just calls /usr/share/cups/enable_sharing. It breaks the UI, but doc-team is fine with it
[11:01] <infinity> mdz: (Thinking about the "dmraid initramfs support" thing, which is in universe, and the contributed scripts appear to be good and work fine)
[11:03] <Usiu> Kamion, E: No such script: /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/dapper
[11:03] <Usiu> I am building on debian
[11:04] <infinity> Usiu: So, install our version.  It installs fine on Debian.
[11:04] <infinity> Usiu: http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/admin/debootstrap
[11:04] <mdz> infinity: yes
[11:04] <mdz> pitti: this sounds awfully like a feature
[11:05] <Usiu> infinity, thx
[11:05] <pitti> mdz: yes, it is, that's why I asked so many people; it adds the missing UI bit to the cups script
[11:05] <mdz> pitti: mail me the patch?
[11:05] <mdz> pitti: who created the patch?
[11:05] <pitti> mvo: ^ you have the current one, can you do?
[11:06] <pitti> mdz: it was initially created by ivoks, and mvo fixed some stuff and made it easier (we discussed and tested this yesterday)
[11:06] <pitti> mdz: now the patch is basically a copy&paste&tweak of the already existing 'Enable browsing' patch
[11:07] <Usiu> infinity, one more thing (important) is the dbus services dir the same in dapper as in debian?
[11:07] <Usiu> infinity, /usr/share/dbus-1/services/
[11:07] <Usiu> ?
[11:07] <infinity> Usiu: No idea.
[11:07] <mdz> pitti: I'd like to look over the patch
[11:08] <pitti> mdz: sure
[11:08] <Kamion> it's /usr/share/dbus-1/services/ in dapper, yes
[11:08] <mvo> mdz: I can send you both the new and the old patch or a diff of the patches (but that is going to be not readable)
[11:08] <mvo> or both of course
[11:08] <mvo> :)
[11:08] <Kamion> mvo: interdiff!
[11:08] <Usiu> thx
[11:08] <Usiu> Kamion, thx
[11:08] <mdz> mvo: if the new patch is so complex that I won't understand it without the old patch, we don't want it ;-)
[11:10] <infinity> mvo: "a CUPS of tea"?... Looks like someone needs a vacation.
[11:11] <pitti> infinity: but it fits, given that it's about printing :)
[11:12] <Treenaks> http://openclipart.org/clipart/food/beverages/teacup_bw.svg
[11:12] <mvo> infinity: you are so right
[11:15] <Kagou> hi
[11:15] <sivang> mvo: hehe :)
[11:15] <sivang> infinity: sharp eyes you have
[11:16] <Kagou> infinity, wow what a huge release for samba :) thanks 
[11:17] <mdz> pitti: PS, I'm going to sleep very soon
[11:18] <Kagou> infinity, 10 bugs closed in the same time ... are you looking for a record ?! ;)  dholbach have to make a big hug :D
[11:19] <dholbach> Happy Hug Day!
[11:19] <mdz> mvo: this patch is way too big
[11:20] <mdz> pitti,mvo: please defer until after the release
[11:22] <pitti> hm, ok
[11:23] <mvo> mdz: ok
[11:23] <mdke> Kamion: an email for you: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2006-May/000587.html
[11:24] <janimo> Kamion: was not aware of the liveCD build failure, has it been happening before today as well?(latest xubuntu-docs upload was yesterday)
[11:24] <mdke> Kamion: can you make sure string changes are always notified to that mailing list, if there are any more?
[11:29] <infinity> janimo: Older livefs build failures appeared to be due to xubuntu-desktop being uninstallable, which I assumed you would have known about...
[11:29] <janimo> infinity: right. iwj uploaded a xubuntu-docs yesterday may be it?
[11:30] <janimo> although I just installed fine here
[11:32] <pitti> janimo: see http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/anastacia.txt
[11:32] <pitti> janimo: apparently xubuntu-desktop depends on some universe packages
[11:32] <janimo> pitti, hmm those which have not yet been promoted
[11:33] <pitti> janimo: I recognize the names, most (all) of them have been approved, so they need to be promoted
[11:33] <janimo> but it's ok since the seeds to not translate to the desktop package
[11:33] <janimo> pitti, they have been in the seeds for the long time. But the script wjhich makes xubuntu-desjtop ignores them so np AFAIK
[11:33] <janimo> pitti, yes 5 of them you approved yesterday :)
[11:33] <pitti> janimo: seeding is fine, but as long as the packages are in universe, they are uninstallable
[11:34] <janimo> xubuntu-desktop has been installable afaik. Weird, can liveCD install fail if I can just install the package fine on an existing  system?
[11:35] <janimo> so liveCD uses it's own thing instead of apt if I recall corerecly?
[11:35] <pitti> janimo: because you have universe enabled?
[11:35] <janimo> pitti, not because univers
[11:35] <janimo> pitti, xubuntu-desktop the metapackage does not depend on universe stuff
[11:35] <janimo> only the desktop seed has them
[11:36] <janimo> they are only going from seed to metapckage when they are in main
[11:36] <janimo> until then I thought the do no harm, but apparently liveCD cares
[11:38] <infinity> janimo: ubuntu-desktop is obviously installable now (or we wouldn't be getting the ubuntu-docs failure), so I think the point is moot.
[11:39] <infinity> janimo: It /was/ uninstallible in the past, that's all.
[11:39] <Kamion> mdke: will do, but the only one I was aware of lately outside of ubiquity was in user-setup, which came with a bunch of translations from upstream
[11:39] <Kamion> mdke: I don't intend for there to be any more, though
[11:39] <Kamion> janimo: I noticed the same build failure yesterday
[11:40] <janimo> infinity: I am not saying it was not, just that maybe it could have been causing problems ofr livecd build but otherwise install fine
[11:40] <mdke> Kamion: ok. If you want to pass me an answer to that email, I'll pass it on (about when you're going to be downloading the translations)
[11:40] <Kamion> mdke: I expect I'll do it on Sunday night or Monday morning, if that's OK with mdz ...
[11:40] <Kamion> Thursday evening is cutting it a bit fine, and I'll be away Friday -> Sunday
[11:41] <mdke> Kamion: same as with the docs :) great, I'll pass that on
[11:42] <Kamion> mdke: if you don't mind being a conduit for me, it might also be worth passing on that where the installer is concerned, I always let upstream translations take priority; anything else means that I get put in the position of trying to decide which of two strings I don't understand is better, when it comes to merge time
[11:42] <Kamion> so "accidentally overwriting some Rosetta translations" is wrong, but only because it's deliberate
[11:43] <janimo> Kamion: ok, looks like my latest xbuntu-docs upload botched something
[11:44] <Kamion> unfortunately there is no good Rosetta workflow for passing string changes made in Rosetta upstream, at present, so if translators are making necessary corrections then they really need to pass those upstream themselves
[11:44] <Kamion> (similarly, I can't realistically pass all of those on, because I don't know why they were made)
[11:44] <mdke> Kamion: sure thing
[11:45] <Kamion> thanks
[11:50] <iwj> ispiked: Did the person get it to work ?  Which patch ?  What error ?  etc.
[11:52] <mdke> Kamion: can you answer the last paragraph of that email too?
[11:55] <sivang> mvo: bon appetite
[11:57] <mdke> Kamion: also, when you say you give priority to upstream, that is when merging into Rosetta, so any later changes in Rosetta will still be effective, correct?
[11:58] <Kamion> mdke: forward/back> those are stock gtk strings
[11:58] <Kamion> mdke: (although I may switch to the "Go Back" / "Continue" strings that are already translated, because gtk strings require language packs to be installed; haven't decided yet, but it won't require translator action either way)
[11:59] <mdke> Kamion: gotcha
[11:59] <Kamion> mdke: I completely ignore Rosetta changes to installer strings that have existing translations upstream; I'm just not equipped to make that decision
[11:59] <Kamion> so I go for minimal diff to upstream as a default action
[11:59] <mdke> whoa
[11:59] <Kamion> remember that the installer is not subject to language packs, so I have to import everything by hand
[12:00] <mdke> so when you download the rosetta translations, you strip out those which have changed since upstream?
[12:00] <Kamion> I think you've got the sense of the activity the wrong way round
[12:01] <Kamion> I have to apply all these by hand - I only apply changes to Ubuntu-specific strings and ones which don't have existing translations upstream
[12:01] <Kamion> there isn't really an active stripping out
[12:02] <mdke> well, all the upstream strings are also in the po files in rosetta, so in theory you could get everything there, and give effect to the changes of the ubuntu teams. but, anyway, I've got the answer, thanks
[12:02] <Kamion> I could, but I'd have to upload every installer package
[12:02] <Kamion> there are like 50-odd of them
[12:02] <mdke> ah right
[12:02] <Kamion> the human effort on my part would be really very considerable indeed
[12:03] <mdke> ok, it's useful for the translators to know what's up, because the behaviour is different for everything else (ubuntu changes take precedence). thanks for the info
[12:03] <Kamion> I'm happy to take changes if translators let me know that they're super-urgent, but I just can't manage it as a general rule
[12:03] <Kamion> yeah, sorry if it's been unclear, I haven't made any secret of the way I handle installer strings but I may not have broadcast it either
[12:03] <mdke> np, i think in general people will be happy for upstream to take precedence
[12:04] <mdke> the other way round has often been problematic
[12:04] <Kamion> and as I say, for Ubuntu-specific strings obviously I get translations for those from Rosetta
[12:04] <Kamion> and I try to pass them upstream if the string goes upstream
[12:04] <mdke> Kamion: ok, i'll let you get back to work. thanks
[12:05] <Kamion> thanks for forwarding
[12:05] <mdke> np
[12:18] <ivoks> mvo: ping
[12:19] <ivoks> mvo: g-c-m needs revision of pop-up messages when enabling sharing local printers (it says that it will enable browsing, which is not true any more)
[12:20] <janimo> ivoks: mvo is lunching
[12:20] <ivoks> janimo: he will see message, i hope :)
[12:20] <ogra> iwj, what did yu change in edubuntu-artwork yesterday ? seems the default homepage doesnt work in epiphany anymore 
[12:24] <iwj> ogra: Urr.  I added another couple of symlinks.  I even diffed the resulting .debs and I'm pretty sure that nothing was removed from edubuntu-artwork.
[12:24] <iwj> seb128: Did you upload the new epiphany ?  Did you try it with edubuntu ?
[12:24] <ogra> hmm, jsgotangco reported it doesnt work anymore, jsgotangco `
[12:24] <ogra> ?
[12:24] <seb128> iwj: no, not yet, I'm going to do that after being done with google SoC stuff
[12:25] <ogra> ah, ok, so it depends on a specific ephy upload, ok
[12:25] <ogra> Kamion, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html disagrees with the cd build log
[12:26] <iwj> ogra: Do you have any reason to think this bug is caused by the edubuntu-artwork change ?
[12:26] <ogra> (amd64 is still 3M oversized, there must be uninstallables=
[12:26] <ogra> )
[12:26] <Kamion> that's an interesting assumption
[12:26] <ogra> iwj, it appeared today and the only related change was your upload
[12:26] <Kamion> how do you know it'd be packages that overflow, or that the packages that overflow would be ones that other packages depend on?
[12:27] <ogra> Kamion, i'd think its a very special case to match the point where a package thats on CD 2 has no deps :)
[12:27] <ogra> so we met a cornercase ? 
[12:28] <ogra> (at least i've never seen that before :) )
[12:30] <Kamion> ah, heh
[12:30] <Kamion> Traceback (most recent call last):
[12:30] <Kamion>   File "/srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/britney/update_out/check_out.py", line 4, in ?
[12:30] <Kamion>     import britney;
[12:30] <Kamion> ImportError: No module named britney
[12:30] <ogra> ok :)
[12:30] <Kamion> probably a side-effect of switching to bzr; I'll sort it out
[12:30] <Kamion> thanks
[12:30] <iwj> ogra: I don't think my change can have caused this but the right approach is to debug it.
[12:30] <ogra> thanks as well :)
[12:30] <ogra> iwj, yep, will check it
[12:30] <iwj> Thanks.
[12:31] <Kamion> right, that 'make' should have taken care of it
[12:31] <iwj> ogra: Also, note that we've had some difficulty with the `firefox-homepage' alternative mistakenly getting set to `manual'.
[12:31] <Kamion> let me know if it still happens tomorrow
[12:31] <iwj> ogra: It doesn't happen every time and I suspect a bad package some time earlier in dapper to be responsible but it might be relevant.
[12:32] <iwj> So if `update-alternatives --display firefox-homepage' shows manual, then that's probably the bug.
[12:32] <iwj> ogra: In that case we want to know the upgrade history of the machine.
[12:32] <ogra> iwj, ok, thanks ... we should find something better for edgy here
[12:32] <ogra> instead of alternatives ...
[12:33] <iwj> I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the current setup except the clumsy interaction with the ff localisation system.
[12:34] <iwj> instead of alternatives> So you can have one machine be {,k,x,ed}ubuntu, you mean ?
[12:34] <ogra> nope, but we should probably not abuse the alternatives system for this purpose i think ...
[12:35] <iwj> Why don't we talk about this in Paris :-).
[12:36] <ogra> at the moment we use two different systems here (alternatives *and* linking for nonexistent locales), where we could use only one (only links, even for disto specific subdirs)
[12:36] <Kamion> Would anyone care to investigate an apparent yaboot/kernel (not sure which) bug for me?
[12:36] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yaboot/+bug/40973
[12:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40973 in yaboot "Dapper PPC beta CDs yield blank screen on Graphite iBook" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:36] <Kamion> these bugs may also be related:
[12:36] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yaboot/+bug/40342
[12:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40342 in yaboot "Failure to boot after install" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:36] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yaboot/+bug/40692
[12:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40692 in yaboot "No boot with 1.3.13-4.1ubuntu4" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:37] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yaboot/+bug/45213
[12:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45213 in yaboot "Booting on IBM pseries server" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:37] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yaboot/+bug/40092
[12:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 40092 in yaboot "it doesn't boot" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[12:38] <Kamion> the thing is that about the only thing that's changed that could cause all that breakage is that we've recompiled
[12:38] <ogra> i wonder if these machines have nvidia cards
[12:38] <Kamion> ogra: no
[12:38] <Kamion> pseries won't
[12:38] <Kamion> (at least I'd be astonished)
[12:39] <Kamion> so I think it might be due to building with gcc-4.0
[12:39] <ogra> hmm,, i still see usplash timeouts on ppc
[12:39] <ogra> and i know we have a bug that hardlocks with nvidia drivers if you switch to coinsole
[12:39] <Kamion> please stop conflating bugs!
[12:39] <Kamion> good grief, not every powerpc bug is the same
[12:40] <Kamion> I'd like somebody to try building yaboot with gcc-3.3 and putting together a test CD image for these folks to try
[12:40] <Kamion> to see if that clears it up
[12:40] <Kamion> if it does, we need to roll back yaboot to building with gcc-3.3, and start diffing assembly and stuff to find out where the bug is
[12:42] <ogra> does it need to be a CD ? wouldnt a package and running ybin suffice ? 
[12:42] <Kamion> a CD would be a lot easier for people to test in some of these cases
[12:42] <Kamion> they do not all have working Ubuntu installs
[12:43] <Kamion> it doesn't have to be a full CD; an install CD with all of dists/ and pool/ removed would be quite adequate
[12:45] <iwj> Are there instructions somewhere on how to do a CD build ?
[12:47] <tseng> iwj: they are from breezy
[12:47] <tseng> LiveCDCustomizationHowto
[12:47] <Kamion> those instructions are adequate in this case if you ignore nearly all of them :-)
[12:48] <Kamion> give me a moment
[12:52] <Kamion> iwj: OK, just grab an existing CD image, loop-mount, copy, hack, and then the "Putting the CD back together" part of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo should be adequate now
[12:53] <Kamion> (even if it's an install CD; the mkisofs bit doesn't vary between install and live CDs)
[12:54] <iwj> OK.  I'll give it a go.  Starting with the 20060126 daily ?
[12:56] <Kamion> that sounds rather too old for this
[12:56] <Kamion> today's daily would be preferable
[12:57] <Kamion> thanks for the help
[12:59] <iwj> The `current' daily installer in my mirror is 20051026ubuntu13.0.20060126 dated January.  Everything else in my mirror is obviously up to date.
[12:59] <iwj> Is it possible this is a soyuz bug ?
[12:59] <Kamion> daily-installer-* is dead, yes, that's a soyuz bug; use installer-* instead
[01:00] <iwj> Oh!  *light dawns*
[01:00] <iwj> 20051026ubuntu32 looks better.
[01:01] <Kamion> um, I had been thinking of starting with an actual CD build though rather than from the installer; for instance I can't guarantee that the breakage isn't due to Ben's automatic powerpc/powerpc64 switching code, which would take some effort to reproduce based on the d-i output in your mirror
[01:02] <Kamion> I'll build a CD image with dists and pool stripped out based on today's daily build, which should be a lot quicker to download
[01:02] <sladen> where's a keybuk when you want him
[01:03] <iwj> OK, thanks.  Otherwise I can start downloading it now and do something else for an hour or two ...
[01:06] <iwj> I think I need coffee.
[01:16] <Kamion> iwj: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/tmp/dapper-install-powerpc-stripped.iso
[01:17] <iwj> Kamion: ta.
[01:17] <Kamion> I wouldn't mind if somebody with a powerpc with a working CD drive could test-boot that to see that it at least gets you into the installer, BTW. It won't actually *install* anything, since I took out most of its brain, but ...
[01:17] <Kamion> If nobody has time at the moment, then it might be worth giving them that image too as a control.
[01:18] <infinity> Does anyone have a powerpc machine that can boot from CD? :)
[01:19] <dholbach> infinity: yes, quite an aged one
[01:20] <iwj> Kamion: Just to be sure I'm not completely confused, what I plan to do is to unpack gcc-3.3 in my filespace in one of the DC ppc chroots and then build yaboot from dapper using that.  I expect this to produce a udeb which I stuff into the fs image.  Is that right ?
[01:22] <infinity> iwj: No, we're talking about the actual yaboot used to boot the CD in this case.
[01:22] <Kamion> iwj: nearly, except for the udeb bit; the .deb it produces will contain /usr/lib/yaboot/yaboot, with which you should overwrite /install/yaboot in the image
[01:22] <iwj> Ah, right.  OK.
[01:25] <sivang> Kamion: should this work on a pSeries as well? :) (reminding our old old discussions about it)
[01:25] <Kamion> sivang: yes, I'd hope so
[01:26] <Kamion> sivang: we have one bug about current images not booting on a pSeries, so if you have one to hand, testing that stripped image would be good
[01:26] <infinity> sivang: In theory, it should.  Since I have no pSeries machine to test on...
[01:26] <sivang> Kamion, infinity : I really need to free up some time and test it, or get a pSeries over home :) 
[01:26] <infinity> sivang: You're welcome to convince IBM (or, more likely, a small IBM vendor with their hearts in the right place) to ship me a really low powered one.
[01:27] <infinity> sivang: But no amount of testing at this point will allow us to fix any but the simplest bugs, so here's hoping it already works.
[01:27] <sivang> infinity: hehe, I'm already on a waiting list of one like this when it gets availabel from a local IBM consultancy firm, which I have connections at.
[01:28] <Kamion> gcc-3.3 is still in main; switching back to that is doable if that's what it takes
[01:28] <thom> infinity: can you not blag an openpower box off OzLabs? i'm sure they'd be receptive
[01:28] <infinity> thom: Can you repeat that in International English?
[01:29] <sivang> thom: right, what about the non native speakers? :)
[01:29] <infinity> thom: (And I've never talked to anyone at OzLabs, so I dunno)
[01:30] <thom> infinity: does blag not translate to north american?
[01:30] <infinity> thom: Nope.
[01:30] <ogra> thom, blag translates to "unloved child" in german
[01:30] <thom> bummer. it means, "talk them into giving you"
[01:30] <infinity> thom: Though without you defining it, I'd perhaps translate to "scam" or "swipe", based on context.
[01:31] <Kamion> scam is closer than swipe
[01:31] <sivang> I will go try this as soon as it finished download on the black machine.
[01:31] <thom> Kamion: but less all out criminal than either, generally
[01:31] <Kamion> yeah
[01:33] <siretart> Kamion: FYI: I'm currently talking to Mrfai about fai-kernels. They intend to switch from fai-kernels to something initramfs-tools based for etch, so I expect fai-kernels to die for edgy
[01:33] <infinity> thom: According to Zofia, it's not a word in en_AU either, so there you go.
[01:35] <thom> your crappy ripped off englishes are deficient then
[01:35] <thom> :-)
[01:36] <Kamion> siretart: hooray
[01:38] <siretart> but for dapper, we still need fai-kernels so fai can be used for something.
[01:38] <Kamion> woo
[01:38] <Kamion> (and it shows you them, so you can decide not to ...)
[01:42] <seb128> hum
[01:42] <seb128> "Could not fin kernel image: /casper/filesystem.kernel-386"
[01:43] <seb128> is daily build known to be broken or is that likely to be an issue with my CD?
[01:43] <Kamion> seb128: is that daily or daily-live?
[01:43] <seb128> daily-live i386
[01:44] <Kamion> odd, /casper/filesystem.kernel-386 does exist
[01:44] <seb128> maybe my CD then, let me try again :)
[01:44] <Kamion> no
[01:44] <Kamion> I'll investigate - it's almost certainly due to the changes I made yesterday to try to make DVD images work properly
[01:45] <seb128> ok
[01:45] <seb128> let me know if I can be useful
[01:45] <Kamion> you already have been by reporting it :)
[01:45] <Kamion> I'll do a rebuild once I figure out a fix
[01:46] <seb128> ok, thank you
[01:55] <pitti> carlos: hm, yesterday evening's tarball was again from May 15 - it seems the export didn't work? or was it just too late again?
[02:01] <Riddell> pitti: does pmount work for floppy disks?
[02:01] <Riddell> it doesn't want to work for me
[02:01] <pitti> Riddell: it should
[02:01] <pitti> Riddell: but I don't have any floppy to test it
[02:01] <pitti> Riddell: pmount -d /dev/fd0 ?
[02:01] <Riddell> keeps trying to access the disk but never manages to mount it
[02:02] <pitti> oh, wait, do you have an fstab entry for fd0?
[02:02] <pitti> (-d (debug mode) will tell me anyway)
[02:02] <Riddell> I don't
[02:03] <Riddell> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/722210
[02:03] <Riddell> '-t' 'udf'  looks wrong
[02:03] <pitti> Riddell: so this mount command never finishes?
[02:03] <Riddell> corret
[02:03] <Riddell> yes
[02:04] <pitti> Riddell: welll, it tries all file systems until one works
[02:04] <pitti> Riddell: so it seems the kernel just hangs when trying to mount a vfat floppy as udf?
[02:04] <pitti> Riddell: does 'pmount -t vfat /dev/fd0' work?
[02:05] <pitti> Riddell: and if so, does 'PMOUNT_DEBUG=1 pmount-hal /dev/fd0' work?
[02:05] <pitti> Riddell: (the latter will work if hal can successfully figure out the file system on the floppy; if not, pmount will try all of them again)
[02:07] <Riddell> using -t vfat works fine
[02:07] <Riddell> that second command fails http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/722215  
[02:07] <Riddell> well, hangs trying to mount
[02:07] <pitti> fstype: (null)
[02:08] <pitti> Riddell: ^ so hal doesn't attempt to detect the floppy fs (or can't)
[02:08] <Riddell> that seems to be the case
[02:08] <pitti> Riddell: hmmm; I don't believe it's generally broken, from the bug reports I believe that it works in most cases
[02:09] <pitti> Riddell: is there anything in dmesg when attmepting to mount as udf?
[02:11] <Riddell> yes
[02:11] <Riddell> [768109.983213]  attempt to access beyond end of device
[02:11] <Riddell> [768109.983274]  fd0: rw=0, want=2884, limit=2880
[02:11] <Riddell> [768109.983320]  UDF-fs: No VRS found
[02:12] <pitti> Riddell: hm, that looks fine; the idea is that the mount should fail and it will try the next one
[02:13] <pitti> Riddell: let's try something else: if you leave the floppy in the drive and do 'sudo /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal restart', can you please do the pmount-hal with debug again?
[02:14] <pitti> Riddell: hal probes all the devices on startup, so I need to know whether it just doesn't or can't figure out the floppy fs
[02:15] <Riddell> no difference http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/722225
[02:15] <pitti> Riddell: too bad; if you want to debug this further, please do a ful hal debug output (wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingRemovableDevices, second part of the page)
[02:16] <pitti> Riddell: but this seems nontrivial to fix :(
[02:17] <Riddell> ok, thanks anyway
[02:17] <pitti> wb ivoks 
[02:18] <ivoks> hi
[02:18] <ivoks> btw, g-c-m at people has one bug :)
[02:18] <pitti> ivoks: mdz rejected the patch anyway :/
[02:19] <ivoks> pitti: oh, to late for inclusion?
[02:19] <pitti> yes
[02:19] <ivoks> ah...
[02:19] <ivoks> :((
[02:21] <ivoks> pitti: funniest thing is that patch was available 5 days ago :)
[02:22] <pitti> ivoks: same result, though (btw, the current patch exists only since yesterday)
[02:22] <ivoks> i know
[02:23] <ivoks> well, better to respect policy than introduce this, no mather how trivial/small it is
[02:23] <ivoks> then we'll have to make something flashy for edgy :)
[02:31] <siretart> jdong_: ping
[02:47] <lifeless> infinity: around ?
[02:51] <infinity> lifeless: Vaguely.  I'm in the middle of some sort of "long lunch" before I go back to work through a chunk of the night.
[02:51] <infinity> lifeless: 'sup?
[02:52] <lifeless> I think there is a possible upgrade bug from breezy with smbget and smbclient
[02:52] <infinity> lifeless: ?
[02:52] <lifeless> if you have breezy smbclient on your machine - 'smbclient', '3.0.14a-6ubuntu1'
[02:53] <lifeless> and in upgrading to dapper smgbet 0.6-1 is unpacked before the smbclient package, or if you are just installing the one thing, then the replaces line in smbclient 3.0.22 wont take effect
[02:53] <lifeless> and the files that moved from smbclient to smbget will make dpkg complain
[02:54] <infinity> Err.
[02:54] <infinity> Other way around, you mean, I assume.
[02:54] <infinity> Looks like smbget went from smbget to smbclient.
[02:54] <infinity> And smbclient properly replaces it.
[02:54] <infinity> So I'm not sure what the bug is you're actually seeing.
[02:55] <lifeless> infinity: well, I was seeing a report that the smbclient in breezy has files that are in smbget in dapper.
[02:55] <infinity> No, it doesn't.
[02:55] <infinity> (smbget in dapper should just be dropped anyway)
[02:55] <lifeless> let me pull the thing apart, one sec.
[02:55] <infinity> smbclient in dapper conflicts/replaces smbget.
[02:56] <infinity> lifeless: Do you have a bug report for this?
[02:56] <infinity> lifeless: With angry dpkg output and such?
[02:57] <lifeless> infinity: I'm considering whether to file one, or whether to try and make this failure happen to generate output
[02:57] <lifeless> I dont have a breezy chroot handy to test with is all
[02:57] <infinity> lifeless: I don't see how "it" can happen at all, unless it's someone complaining that the packages conflict (which they clearly do).
[02:57] <infinity> Conflicting packages isn't a bug, however.
[02:58] <infinity> Every time a package gets phased out, mind you, people report a bug on the "OMG, apt is trying to remove a package" behaviour.
[02:58] <lifeless> infinity: I think you are presuming smbclient is upgraded at the same time
[02:58] <infinity> I'm presuming no such thing.
[02:58] <infinity> It doesn't matter who is upgraded when, as soon as smbclient is upgraded to a recent version, it will force the removal of smbget.
[03:02] <infinity> lifeless: Anyhow, if you can get a coherent testcase to show me the actual bug in question, holler back.
[03:02] <lifeless> yes
[03:02] <infinity> lifeless: But it all sounds pretty non-buggy to me.
[03:02] <lifeless> I have to look at why this cropped up, my diagnostics are still, uhm, primitive.
[03:03] <Kamion> infinity: lifeless is putting together code to automatically detect file overwrite errors
[03:05] <infinity> Contents.gz (breezy) -> Contents.gz (dapper) -> overlaps -> check for conflicts or replaces, apply same heuristics dpkg would, profit?
[03:05] <Kamion> diversions are the hard bit ...
[03:06] <lifeless> infinity: diversions, version skew, arch specific issues, deep history to warn of problems during development rather than just HEAD to HEAD
[03:06] <Kamion> lifeless: it's always best to verify quickly with dpkg -c before coming to the distro team, BTW. :)
[03:06] <infinity> diversions are going to be a serious pain, yes.
[03:06] <sivang> infinity , Kamion : http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/error.png
[03:06] <infinity> Since there are dozens of ways to divert things.
[03:06] <lifeless> Kamion: indeed. still tracking
[03:07] <Kamion> sivang: may well be the same issue. Do you have time to try a real daily install CD rather than the one I stripped down by hand
[03:07] <Kamion> ?
[03:07] <Kamion> hang on. are you telling me that vmware can emulate a pseries?
[03:08] <sivang> Kamion: nono :)
[03:08] <sivang> Kamion: I just run the HMC remote client from a vmware image of win32 box under a 64bit ubuntu breezy host :)
[03:08] <Kamion> ah
[03:08] <Kamion> "just"
[03:08] <sivang> heh
[03:08] <sivang> yeah
[03:09] <sivang> Kamion: anyway, I will try the daily. can you toss me the link or should I look for it myself?
[03:10] <Kamion> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/dapper-install-powerpc.iso
[03:10] <Kamion> (from memory, but I type that a lot, so it should be right ...)
[03:12] <janimo> hmm is the an unsubscribe from bug button in LP?
[03:13] <pitti> janimo: only if you are subscribed directly
[03:13] <janimo> pitti, xubuntu-team is subscribed and I am a member
[03:13] <pitti> janimo: if you are sub'ed through a team, you have to use the email interface
[03:13] <janimo> admin if it helkps
[03:13] <pitti> janimo: ' unsubscribe xubuntu-team'
[03:13] <janimo> does LP have an email interface? cool :)
[03:14] <janimo> I mean other than reply to coments in bugs
[03:14] <pitti> janimo: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceUserDoc
[03:14] <janimo> pitti: thanks
[03:20] <hunger> Is there a bug statistics page in malone somewhere?
[03:20] <lifeless> Kamio, infinity - thanks for the patience.
[03:20] <lifeless> found the bug in my code.
[03:24] <jdong|coreduo> Kamion: ping
[03:26] <Hobbsee> where do specs get discussed/written?  launchpad.net/specs, in here, or somewhere totally different?
[03:26] <Hobbsee> got a person asking in -motu
[03:30] <Kamion> jdong|coreduo: hi
[03:33] <janimo> we should be starting the meeting
[03:41] <ssam> Hobbsee, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[04:04] <CarlFK> Kamion: today's dapper-server: "Unable to install the selected kernel - an error was returned while trying to install the kernel into the target system.  Kernel package: linux-386"   details: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/temp/May17/a
[04:06] <Kamion> I'd really much rather you defaulted to filing bugs rather than defaulting to asking me on IRC; half the time when you ask me it's 4am or something and obviously I'm not around
[04:08] <CarlFK> ok - i figured the ability to get more info right away was worth the cost... but your call, so launchpad it is
[04:09] <infinity> CarlFK: ubuntu-server and I are going to have some long talks on Monday anyway.
[04:09] <infinity> CarlFK: I'll make sure that things like the default kernel and LAMP actually work right then.
[04:09] <infinity> (And bug Kamion for help when I get stuck)
[04:09] <Kamion> FWIW in this case it may well be triggered by your mirror timing out
[04:09] <infinity> Kamion: Lucky you.
[04:10] <Kamion> but there's probably another latent bug in there, so I'd like a bug report
[04:10] <CarlFK> what package?
[04:11] <Kamion> debian-installer
[04:22] <ogra> janimo, how did you solve the ltsp probelm in xubuntu ? is that documentable in wikiform ? i have some requests of people who'd like to do a cusdtomized CD with an ltsp option
[04:22] <janimo> ogra: did not solve it, there's a whishlist bug in LP to add the required components to the CD
[04:22] <siretart> mvo: what does urllib have to do with xfce? or the build-in apt_pkg package retrierer?
[04:22] <ogra> janimo, oh, ok
[04:22] <jdong|coreduo> #bzr
[04:22] <janimo> as last time I put the clinet-builder in istaller seed and it broke regular install
[04:23] <jdong|coreduo> (sorry bout that)
[04:23] <ogra> so it will be a new additional seed file i guess
[04:23] <Kamion> jdong|coreduo: you pinged me?
[04:23] <ogra> s/seed/preseed/
[04:23] <janimo> ogra: Kamion said there's no need for a seed if there's only a handful of packages iirc
[04:23] <ogra> ah
[04:24] <janimo> oh, preseed, you lost me again. Yes I still have not mounted the ISO and played with preseed :)
[04:24] <mvo> siretart: sorry, my description was not clear. gnome-vfs is not a option for gdebi because we don't want gnome dependencies in it (for xfce). but urllib has some disadvantages compared to apt_pkgs retriever support (i.e. easy resue of the progress classes)
[04:25] <siretart> mvo: aah, now I see. okay, your call
[04:38] <OculusAquilae> carlos: ping
[04:38] <carlos> OculusAquilae: pong
[04:39] <OculusAquilae> carlos: about package wlassistant. It has a .pot-file in source, but it doesn't get imported into Rosetta. Have you got an idea why?
[04:40] <carlos> OculusAquilae: there is a set of imports I need to do manually, and that one is one of them
[04:40] <carlos> you can see a complete list of missing templates at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MissingPotFiles
[04:41] <carlos> OculusAquilae: I will try to import that one today, I usually add some of them from time to time
[04:41] <carlos> until the list is empty
[04:42] <OculusAquilae> carlos: so the same problem with keep (on that list too)
[04:42] <carlos> right
[04:43] <carlos> no updates were done to those packages after the soyuz migration so we didn't get the translation resources, that's why I need to upload them by hand
[04:43] <OculusAquilae> would be nice to get it importet the next days 
[04:46] <OculusAquilae> carlos: is it possible that there is the same problem with kwin-style-crystal, although it's not on that list?
[04:47] <carlos> OculusAquilae: does it build a .pot file on build time?
[04:47] <carlos> the source lacks it
[04:48] <OculusAquilae> it uses cdbs I and I think it should do it automatically 
[04:48] <carlos> OculusAquilae: but it was not rebuilt after we added the .pot autogeneration
[04:48] <carlos> OculusAquilae: that's why it's not imported
[04:49] <OculusAquilae> possible
[04:49] <carlos> or at least I don't have it available
[04:49] <carlos> OculusAquilae: either force a new build of it, or send me a valid .pot file
[04:49] <OculusAquilae> I could send you one
[04:49] <carlos> it lacks .po files on the package so I could just do the .pot file upload by hand
[04:49] <carlos> OculusAquilae: please, do it
[04:56] <iwj> rsync++
[04:56] <ogra> paramiko-- ?
[04:57] <pitti> carlos: hm, yesterday evening's tarball was again from May 15 - it seems the export didn't work? or was it just too late again?
[04:57] <iwj> Kamion: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ian/d/yaboot-test-ordinary.iso and http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ian/d/yaboot-test-weird.iso
[04:57] <iwj> Kamion: ordinary is the control sample; weird is the one built with gcc-3.3.
[04:58] <iwj> I've provided both in case I've messed it up somehow.  I'm pretty sure the build process etc. for both is identical.
[04:58] <Kamion> Thanks. I need to go out and run a couple of errands now, but I'll drop those into all the relevant bug reports when I get back
[04:58] <Kamion> much appreciated
[04:58] <iwj> No problem.  I wanted to know more about this kind of stuff anyway.
[05:03] <carlos> pitti: I need to move the language packs generation to production ASAP
[05:03] <carlos> pitti: the mirror server is being busy
[05:04] <pitti> carlos: shall I move the cronjob again?
[05:04] <carlos> I guess that's the problem
[05:04] <carlos> pitti: no, don't worry about it
[05:04] <carlos> you will get the tarball tomorrow
[05:05] <carlos> it will not be completely daily snapshots... but sort of
[05:05] <carlos> I will add it as a priority for my work tomorrow
[05:05] <carlos> that way I will be completely sure it's done
[05:10] <ogra> doko is alive !
[05:19] <hunger> Any idea how I can get /etc/login.defs CLOSE_SESSIONS back on dapper?
[05:20] <hunger> Or what is the recommended way to use libpam-mount now that CLOSE_SESSIONS is marked obsolete?
[05:32] <wasabi__> Heh nice. Somebody removed the arm patches from the Ubuntu glibc.
[05:46] <infinity> wasabi__: Not so much removed, as they're just slightly forked currently and need to achieve convergence post-dapper.
[05:46] <AlinuxOS> pitti, hello dear 
[05:47] <AlinuxOS> I saw your message... so we must request Georgian language autogeneration?
[05:47] <pitti> AlinuxOS: no, as I said, I build all languages now
[05:47] <jsgotangco> yay
[05:48] <AlinuxOS> pitti, so where is the problem ? :)
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> pitti, GNOME + KDE right ?
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> int the same time
[05:49] <pitti> yes
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> pitti, great :)
[05:49] <pitti> AlinuxOS: no problem :)
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> good Idea one update peer week...
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> really rocks!
[05:50] <AlinuxOS> in this way people is more motivated to work
[05:50] <AlinuxOS> :)
[05:50] <AlinuxOS> (accept if there is no exams for uni)
[05:50] <wasabi__> infinity: I'm just going to compile up the base system, and whatever packages I need, and drop them in a person binary-only (unless I change source) repository. At some future point it can be the basis for an official port.
[06:13] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:23] <mdke> mvo: is it correct that the sun-java5-plugin is only available on i386? will that change before release?
[06:23] <mdke> (or anyone) ^^
[06:26] <siretart> mdke: sun could perhaps..
[06:26] <siretart> mdke: there is a java plugin for java4 though
[06:26] <mdke> for amd/ppc?
[06:26] <mdke> j2re1.4-mozilla-plugin ?
[06:28] <Taya> hi, anyone can help me with adding some default language in kde(kubuntu)?
[06:30] <Apachy> kubuntu-devel
[06:31] <Apachy> it's ubuntu-devel
[06:31] <Apachy> pls /join #kubuntu-devel
[06:31] <Taya> ok thx
[06:40] <Egnygnok> when I try to click the advanced button on the package manager, it says "missing command to run"...any suggestions?
[06:41] <Egnygnok> oops...no support...sorry didn't see the topic
[06:43] <iwj> mdz: ping (re mail about overlapping files in /usr/lib/{mozilla-,}firefox
[07:18] <Kamion> fixing ...
[07:18] <Loiosh> Heh!
[07:20] <gurumeditationer> the ubuntu cds don't use joliet extensions?
[07:21] <Kamion> gurumeditationer: they do, but that doesn't mean syslinux understands them
[07:21] <Kamion> at that level it's using BIOS calls and isn't smart enough to do Joliet
[07:21] <Kamion> (or Rock Ridge)
[07:21] <gurumeditationer> ahh, you learn something every day :)
[07:22] <sivang> Kamion: I had network issues at work today, will try boot he powerpc cd tomorrow
[07:26] <Kamion> no worries
[07:26] <jcole> hey dudes, with this announcement, is suns sdk goinf to be in the repos sometime soon? -> http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2156210/sun-makes-java-license-linux
[07:27] <Burgwork> jcole, already is
[07:27] <jcole> Burgwork: cool
[07:27] <sivang> Kamion: I hope you don't mind me asking, what knowledge would I have to know in order to help out putting a quality working ubuntu version on the pSeires? Is it just kernel adjustment or maybe some apps would need porting? (or even base packages..)
[07:32] <jcole> Burgwork: all i can find is Blackdown Java 2 SDK
[07:33] <jcole> Burgwork: nm, found it!
[07:34] <netstar> "Garbabe Bin" lmfao?!?!?
[07:35] <netstar> *Garbage
[07:35] <netstar> That's really international
[07:36] <netstar> Wastebasket worked fine
[07:36] <netstar> Why on earth would you want to change it to something like that?
[07:37] <Kamion> sivang: make sure installer works properly (may involve grubbing around in the partitioner), make sure CDs boot properly (may involve mkisofs and/or debian-cd hacking), make sure machine-specific functionality like power management works fine
[07:38] <netstar> The former was intelligent, unique and internationally acceptable.  Garbage bin is stupid.  Sorry I feel really strongly about this.
[07:38] <Kamion> sivang: shouldn't need to port applications, but the odd bit of supporting software might need adjustment; for example anything that talks to /dev/pmu would need porting
[07:38] <desrt> they renamed trash?
[07:38] <netstar> Yes!
[07:38] <desrt> classic.
[07:38] <netstar> To "Garbage Bin"
[07:38] <netstar> heh it's terrible
[07:39] <desrt> it's still called Trash here
[07:39] <desrt> what LC_MESSAGES are you in?
[07:39] <Kamion> netstar: stop ranting on IRC please; neither seb128 nor dholbach are here, and it'd be them I'd expect to look at this; file a bug
[07:39] <netstar> Kamion: okay. Thanks for the direction.
[07:40] <desrt> netstar; also -- you know how easy it is to rename it back to trash, right?
[07:40] <mvo> Mithrandir: do you know what the practical use for ia32-sun-java5-bin is? i ponder if I should include it in gnome-app-install
[07:40] <netstar> yes I do, but do other users?
[07:40] <desrt> netstar; it's pretty obvious
[07:40] <netstar> To a geek perhaps.
[07:40] <desrt> file a bug.
[07:40] <netstar> doing so
[07:41] <Kamion> rebuilding today's daily-live CDs now
[07:42] <netstar> nautilus or nautilus-data?
[07:42] <mvo> is anyone here familiar with the sun java packages ? I'm probably not up-to-date with the java world, but what is the difference between jre and web-start?
[07:43] <mdke> mvo: I thought you were familiar with em :(
[07:43] <mvo> mdke: I wish I where :/
[07:43] <mvo> mdke: and doko is having fun in the sun :P
[07:43] <mdke> oh shit, when is he back?
[07:44] <mvo> mdke: I'll try to find out
[07:47] <mdke> mvo: don't you guys have a wiki with people's vacation times and such?
[07:48] <mvo> mdke: yes, a internal one
[07:49] <mdke> mvo: so that will tell you when doko is back?
[07:51] <Kamion> BenC: there was a rumour that there's a new kernel upload pending with a new ABI; is this true?
[07:51] <mvo> mdke: he is back to work next week, but I will try to reach him in his vacation 
[07:51] <BenC> Kamion: the rumors have substance, yes
[07:52] <Loiosh> The gods of relaxtion forgive you.
[07:52] <mdke> mvo: if you do, can you ask him if -plugin is going to be shipped for amd64 pls?
[07:52] <BenC> Kamion: probably in just a few hours
[07:54] <Kamion> BenC: ok, I'll try to be around to shunt it through and do d-i
[07:54] <infinity> Oh good, an ABI bump will give me an excuse to fix one last bug in LRM before I call it done.
[07:54] <Kamion> but if not, it'll have to be first thing tomorrow
[07:54] <infinity> Though I won't be alive for 8 or 9 hours.
[07:55] <iwj> Damn, this build is _still_ going.  I need to increase my ccache size I think.
[07:55] <infinity> Kamion: Did you ever sit down with Ben and make sure the component/section/priority was correct for everything in linux-source so that NEW is a no-brainer like it is for LRM?
[07:56] <Kamion> nope, afraid not
[07:56] <Kamion> I think I'd rather do it first thing edgy now
[07:56] <infinity> Damn.  Do you have a cheat sheet of override disparities?
[07:56] <infinity> (If I end up doing the kernel NEW before you...)
[07:57] <infinity> If you don' thave a cheat cheet, I'll just do it the hard way, no big deal.
[07:57] <Kamion> rtc-modules-*, ufs-modules-*
[07:57] <mdke> Riddell: thanks for those -docs packages. Do I need to update the repo?
[07:57] <Kamion> infinity: those go to universe
[07:57] <Kamion> infinity: everything else goes straight through
[07:57] <infinity> Kamion: Ahh, no section breakage, just component?  That's easier to check.
[07:57] <infinity> Kamion: Since component is mind-numbingly obvious from poking at the pool. :)
[07:58] <Kamion> infinity: 'grep modules ~/ubuntu/indices/override.dapper.universe.debian-installer' gives you the list too
[07:59] <infinity> Kamion: Cool.  Then if you don't get to it, I'll do it when I wake up so I can do LRM and -meta.  Thanks.
[07:59] <Kamion> good stuff
[08:00] <mvo> mdke: will do, thanks
[08:00] <Kamion> ah good, that live CD fix worked
[08:12] <AlinuxOS> hello people, what's difference between ttf and otf font ?
[08:18] <Lypsis> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/orage/+bug/45289
[08:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45289 in orage "Date-Bug when creating a new appointment" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[08:21] <mdke> Riddell: nm, LaserJock has done it
[08:28] <omeg> Hey guys
[08:28] <omeg> Is there any way to add named external links in the wiki?
[08:28] <omeg> E.g. [www.google.com Google]  like in Wikipedia?
[08:29] <mdke> omeg: yes, like that, except with an http:// in front of the url. For future questions like that, please see the wiki help or ask in #ubuntu
[08:29] <Kamion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnLinking
[08:37] <iwj> Kamion: oh, sorry for that freeze exception request mail with no Subject.
[08:41] <Kamion> no problem
[09:12] <wasabi__> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Sun_flirts_with_Ubuntu/0,2000061733,39256815,00.htm
[09:12] <wasabi__> congrats.
[09:12] <pygi> wasabi_, :)
[09:13] <AlinuxOS> maybe somone knows good GPL font editor ?
[09:23] <pygi> hey pitti 
[09:23] <pitti> hello again
[09:30] <AlinuxOS> pitti, hello
[09:31] <AlinuxOS> a question: is .vfb font extension valid for ubuntu ?
[09:31] <pitti> hey pygi, hi AlinuxOS 
[09:31] <AlinuxOS> ore .otf type.
[09:31] <AlinuxOS> I'm still searching the best solution for GNOME interface fonts :)
[09:32] <AlinuxOS> and still no idea for monospaced font :/
[09:32] <AlinuxOS> http://bpg.sytes.net/BPG-InfoTech/sppro/bpg/publication_view.asp?InfoID=146406&iabspos=1&vjob=vcat,167&vtkid=
[09:33] <AlinuxOS> BGP font autor has made another great font (IMHO)
[09:33] <AlinuxOS> I'll show you screenshot.
[09:33] <AlinuxOS> http://alinuxos.no-ip.org/BGP.jpg
[09:34] <AlinuxOS> I like very much this font!
[09:34] <AlinuxOS> :D
[09:35] <AlinuxOS> pitti, and you ? :)
[09:35] <pitti> brb, telephone
[09:36] <_ion> A JPEG screenshot?
[09:36] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ok
[09:36] <AlinuxOS> _ion, nex time .png :)
[09:36] <AlinuxOS> my fault :)
[09:40] <pitti> hey ivoks 
[09:40] <pitti> ivoks: welcome to the printing team :)
[09:40] <ivoks> i camed to thank you :)
[09:40] <ivoks> so.. thank you :)
[09:41] <pitti> AlinuxOS: beautiful!
[09:41] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ;)
[09:41] <AlinuxOS> I'm going to see the rest of ChampionsLeague :D
[09:42] <ivoks> ah... the game
[09:42] <jcole> is java now going to be a dependency of ubuntu-desktop?
[09:42] <ivoks> totally forgot about it :)
[09:42] <jcole> "This unlocks a new opportunity for Java developers that has been very hard to reach into in the past. You can develop applications and target Ubuntu [Linux]  and know that Java is present on the machine," Phipps said
[09:42] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I like this font too... but I'll wait Guiasher to decide.
[09:43] <AlinuxOS> folks... good evening :) 
[09:43] <ivoks> jcole: no
[09:43] <ivoks> jcole: java is in multiverse
[09:43] <ivoks> jcole: it isn't totally free... yet
[09:44] <jcole> ivoks: so "knowing that Java is present on the machine" is marketing bs?
[09:44] <ivoks> jcole: yes and no
[09:44] <ivoks> jcole: you really can have sun java on ubuntu without any hassle
[09:45] <ivoks> jcole: but it's not standard package
[09:45] <jcole> ivoks: he needs to s/present/installable...
[09:45] <ivoks> jcole: power of speach is to talk a lot and to say nothing... that's what Phipps was doing :)
[09:46] <ivoks> anyway... the game
[09:46] <ivoks> bye all
[10:05] <neutrinomass> Hello. I wrote up the sync-mount spec yesterday. If anybody is interested in it, you can find it at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncMount . Thanks.
[10:08] <infinity> neutrinomass: removable devices aren't mounted "sync" on purpose.
[10:09] <infinity> neutrinomass: One of the rationales for that is because sync can cause undue stress and wear on flash memory devices, seriously reducing their lifespan.
[10:10] <neutrinomass> infinity: But they are mounted sync under windows, aren't they ?
[10:10] <wasabi__> Your spec is also slightly flawed. You have to umount on windows too
[10:10] <wasabi__> Nope.
[10:10] <wasabi__> You have to "Safely Remove Devices"
[10:10] <wasabi__> with that little icon in the sys tray.
[10:10] <infinity> Yeah, windows has the "safely remove devices" thing.
[10:10] <neutrinomass> wasabi_ : I've never had to unmount on Windows :S ... maybe I am wrong though ....
[10:11] <wasabi__> Well, for USB devices you do, or you have a big chance of losing data.
[10:11] <neutrinomass> wasabi_: On the other hand, I haven't used windows in qutie a while ...
[10:11] <infinity> I know for a fact that it doesn't always sync on write, since I just unplugged my cell phone from a WinXP machine yesterday and noticed nothing had been written to it. :)
[10:11] <wasabi__> I do think explorer causes a sync at the end of a large file operation on it's own, though.
[10:11] <infinity> I'm not sure how or when it decides to flush.  It obviously does eventually.
[10:11] <wasabi__> Yeah, and I've done that too, so I'm not certain what it's rules are.
[10:11] <Loiosh> It does peridically through an operation and at the end
[10:11] <infinity> But not reliably.  Hence the "safely remove devices" applet.
[10:12] <wasabi__> I guess syncing at the end of a large file operation would be a nice thing for nautilus to do.
[10:12] <wasabi__> Depending on the size, etc.
[10:13] <wasabi__> Dunno. ;)
[10:13] <neutrinomass> infinity: : flash devices have limited read/writes or a limited size of that that can be written?
[10:13] <wasabi__> limited read/writes.
[10:13] <wasabi__> Actually, limited writes.
[10:13] <wasabi__> Reads are unlimited, usually.
[10:13] <infinity> neutrinomass: All megnetic media has a limited write cycle.  Flash memory just happens to be more fragile generally.
[10:14] <infinity> neutrinomass: Floppies are even worse, but no one uses them anymore... <shrug>
[10:14] <wasabi__> vfat also happens to be terrible at it for flash memory.
[10:14] <wasabi__> having the fat in a static place on the device.
[10:14] <omeg> Hey infinity
[10:14] <neutrinomass> infinity: I use floppies :P !
[10:14] <omeg> I finished that font.
[10:14] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/Usplash_Mono.bdf <-- I hope that it works, xmbdfed is a very strange program and I don't trust it at all.
[10:14] <infinity> omeg: It may well be too late to sneak it past the Powers That Be, but I'm happy to look at it anyway.
[10:15] <neutrinomass> infinity: Then again I guess you are right regarding the life span of flash devices. I guess I was wrong :(
[10:15] <infinity> omeg: Yeah, every free font editor I've found is pretty crap. :/
[10:15] <omeg> Well, if you consider it too late to "sneak it past", maybe I'll just toss it on the ubuntu-art mailing list and beg for inclusion.
[10:15] <trappist> noatime helps extend write life by not beating on the same part of the medium for every write
[10:15] <omeg> Since I feel it's kind of important. The current font really sucks.
[10:15] <infinity> omeg: ubuntu-art isn't uploading usplash.
[10:15] <wasabi__> trappist: on vfat you have the FAT table in the same spot anyways.
[10:15] <omeg> Well, you're right.
[10:16] <omeg> devel, then?
[10:16] <wasabi__> trappist: So any file additions modify that one part of the disk, always.
[10:16] <trappist> wasabi__: yeah no way around it for vfat I guess
[10:16] <infinity> omeg: The bikeshedding going on there is entertaining, but won't sway me a whole bunch in the end.
[10:16] <wasabi__> Yeah.
[10:16] <neutrinomass> Pffft, so much for my first spec. Thanks though :)
[10:16] <wasabi__> Ther'es just not much way around that one.
[10:16] <infinity> omeg: The biggest issue, of course, is that switching from a proprotional font to a monospace font, while desireable, may have an odd effect on some strings.
[10:17] <infinity> omeg: I'd have to do a fair bit of testing to make sure we don't overflow the stupid text box, etc.
[10:17] <omeg> Whatever feedback you still have, I can still work on for now. I think it's already a whole lot better than the current font, though.
[10:17] <infinity> omeg: (And don't take that as any sort of criticism.  I WANT a monospace font, I just don't know if I can get it in this late)
[10:17] <omeg> It would be awesome if you could find the time for it before the repackaging of usplash. The usplash images are about to be voted for, probably will be in the next few days.
[10:18] <infinity> Voting?
[10:18] <infinity> I was just going to upload v550's image and be done with it. :)
[10:18] <omeg> I'm not sure, actually.
[10:18] <omeg> Nooo, it's awful.
[10:18] <infinity> Name one that's less awful.
[10:18] <infinity> They're all horrible dithered ickfests.
[10:18] <infinity> But so was the breezy one.
[10:18] <omeg> Any of mine: http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_2_8_SCALED.png - http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_1_8_SCALED.png - http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED.png
[10:19] <omeg> Full list here: http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/
[10:19] <omeg> You know, it really may sound like I'm passing the ubuntu-art team here, and I actually am right now, but I really do think that v550's splash screen is awful, man. I mean, not even the gradient is correctly vertically aligned.
[10:20] <omeg> My rationale was to make a splash screen that was similar to the old one, but with new colors and better dithering and while creating compatibility with both the LegacyHuman theme and Tangerine.
[10:20] <infinity> 0 is okay.  The version number on 1 is horrid IMO, and the "logo only" thing, while super cool if we were doing a minimal splash, looks a bit lop-sided when you add the progress bar and text box to it.
[10:21] <omeg> I think that 2 is very cool, but you're right that it would look kind of off.
[10:21] <infinity> But, 0 is basically what we shipped in breezy, with new colours, and less poorly dithered, I think. :)
[10:21] <omeg> I really hope that my 0 will get some support.
[10:21] <tseng> 0 is pretty good
[10:21] <tseng> cleaner than breezy
[10:21] <omeg> Well, v550's is the same as what you shipped in breezy, except with a gradient that's off and without glow. Man, I sound awful, preaching my own stuff like that
[10:22] <omeg> Anyway, you should probably just pick one from the list at the wiki... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Usplash/DapperPropositions
[10:22] <infinity> Yeah, I already did.  It was down to one of v550s, one of yours (0), and someone else's.
[10:22] <omeg> I'll add a sample bar plus text and "fail", "ok" colors to mine later tonight.
[10:22] <infinity> Oh, kwwii.
[10:22] <omeg> Seriously, though, I'll ask v550 to fix his gradient.
[10:23] <Loiosh> wii!
[10:23] <omeg> Well, I'm going to make that last mockup then.
[10:25] <infinity> I liked kwwii's "no gradient" one... Mainly because "no gradient" means "less dithering" means "we win".
[10:25] <infinity> His first one (with a much more subtle gradient than v550) is nice too.
[10:26] <infinity> Nevermind that his shadows seem a bit off, I'm just talking about the logo and the brand name in this case.
[10:26] <infinity> kwwii clearly has the skills to fix those images if someone asks him to.
[10:26] <omeg> I kind of like shadows and gradients and glows. It's not that difficult to get the dithering right.
[10:27] <_ion> I like newsuggestion_0 the most so far.
[10:27] <infinity> omeg: On your scaled ones, did you hand-tweak them after squishing the aspect ratio?
[10:27] <infinity> omeg: Or work at them in the "wrong" aspect ratio from the get-go?
[10:27] <infinity> (Which would work well, I guess, if you have a video card that can do, say, 1280x800)
[10:28] <_ion> More than d_final_v550_ubuntu.png
[10:29] <infinity> omeg: Anyhow, if I were uploading tomorrow (and hey, maybe I am), I'd probably just use newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED.png
[10:29] <infinity> omeg: If the art people and anyone who signs my paycheque get together and agree to override me (or someone else comes up with something better RIGHT NOW), then so be it.
[10:30] <infinity> omeg: Can you do matching ones for {ed,k,x}ubuntu?
[10:31] <infinity> omeg: And can you help the poor xubuntu folk make their logo look.. Nice? :/
[10:32] <omeg> infinity: Sure, I'll do matching ones for all three others. Tonight if it's required.
[10:33] <omeg> Also, yes, I did hand-tweak them; I simply made a 16 color version of the original 32-bit layered image and then manually tweaked the dithering a little bit in those few spots where it didn't fully work out.
[10:34] <omeg> I think that the original usplash image was scaled from the already 16 color image.
[10:34] <infinity> omeg: Well, it shows.  They look a lot less crap than the ones I scaled 6 months ago. :)
[10:34] <omeg> Strangely, it still looked pretty good, though... I didn't even notice that it was until I opened up the original version, actually.
[10:34] <infinity> omeg: (In my defense, I expected them to be replaces pretty quickly... The fact that we had NO artwork contributed until, oh, a week ago was unexpected)
[10:34] <omeg> I'll be back in 10 mins, gonna watch the end of Arsenal - Barcelona match :)
[10:35] <omeg> Haha, that's too bad
[10:35] <omeg> Do you have access to any original version of the old usplash?
[10:35] <infinity> Define "original"... You talking GIMP files, or just the un-scaled PNG?
[10:35] <omeg> Well, either.
[10:35] <infinity> I have the latter.  Not the former.
[10:36] <omeg> You're welcome, _ion :) I'm glad that there's still time for inclusion...
[10:36] <omeg> I thought we were _way_ past UI freeze already.
[10:36] <omeg> infinity: unscaled and in 32-bit?
[10:36] <omeg> Just wondering.
[10:36] <infinity> omeg: No, 4-bit.
[10:36] <omeg> Ah, so. Well, I'll be back in a few. v550 is editing the page now so I'll add my last mockup then.
[10:37] <infinity> omeg: http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/usplash-artwork.png
[10:37] <infinity> omeg: That's what we shipped in breezy (which used a 640x480 framebuffer)... And that's what I mangled to turn into the 640x400 image we have in dapper right now. :)
[10:38] <jcole> the lemerou non-dithered boot screens look very nice
[10:40] <jcole> btw, is x86 the only arch with boot screens?
[10:41] <_ion> jcole: They seem to be 640x480
[10:42] <_ion> IMHO they look somehow cluttered.
[10:42] <jcole> _ion: hmm... i know that the hppa arch has /dev/fb0 available at 1280x1024
[10:42] <_ion> jcole: I meant the lemerou pictures. The images should be 640x400 AFAIK.
[10:49] <jcole> _ion: ya, you're right... i think i like the way the logo is presented here -> http://ftpmerou.free.fr/ubuntu/usplash3.png
[10:50] <jcole> _ion: err, here -> http://ftpmerou.free.fr/ubuntu/usplash2.png
[10:51] <_ion> Of course everyone is entitled to her own opinion. My personal, humble opinion just happens to like the one omeg made more than that. :-)
[10:52] <sladen> jcole: that image does look good;  is it actually 16 colours?
[10:52] <infinity> jcole: We have usplash on all the arches we ship.
[10:53] <infinity> sladen: You're kidding, right?
[10:54] <HiddenWolf> infinity: but pink is pretty. ;)
[11:00] <omeg> Barcelona won!
[11:00] <omeg> I'm glad. Their coach is Frank Rijkaart, who is Dutch. :)
[11:02] <netstar> The game was a shambles with that sending off.
[11:03] <netstar> French and English arrogance all the way!
[11:08] <omeg> Yeah, it was.
[11:08] <omeg> By the way, I just added that last mock-up with text: http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR.png
[11:10] <omeg> Nevermind the sentence... Dutch pangram. :P
[11:17] <infinity> omeg: Is that representative of the pallette colours that are indexed for text in your splash?
[11:17] <infinity> omeg: If so, I think you picked ones that are a bit too bright.
[11:17] <sladen> omeg: I making all of the text colours the same as the "ok" might improve it.  currently it "glares"
[11:17] <infinity> omeg: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperbeta#head-89fe9d664e80740b5bd35bf704bd2a022548be06
[11:17] <sladen> I think ...
[11:18] <infinity> omeg: The current text colour is much less harsh.
[11:18] <infinity> omeg: Also, did you include a reddish colour for fail in the pallette?
[11:18] <omeg> Hmm.... maybe.
[11:18] <sladen> infinity: I was hoping the red text could be made the same as the normal text colour
[11:19] <infinity> omeg: (I know there's contention about "fail" being scary, but for dapper, humour me and let's keep it scary)
[11:19] <sladen> but yes, there needs be a palette entry
[11:19] <omeg> Let me alter that one more time.
[11:20] <omeg> Also, as it is right now, there's not a red color for "fail". I didn't think it would be necessary, so I decided that it's best off being spent on the logo so the dithering looks as good as it can be.
[11:20] <sladen> omeg: nope, it's a required palette entry
[11:20] <ogra> omeg, i really like the logo only ones with black background you did, nice work :)
[11:20] <sladen> omeg: "part of the spec"
[11:21] <sladen> ogra: I'm hoping they get dropped in for edgy :)
[11:21] <ogra> dropped for ? or dropped into ?
[11:21] <omeg> sladen: does the spec say it needs to be red? If so, I'll add it... but I'll have to redither it.
[11:21] <Trewas> btw, not all monitors are created equal... I installed flight 6 onto a computer with an old 15" crt monitor and the usplash colors are so dark that reading the text is almost impossible, so erring on the side of "too bright" would be sometimes preferable...
[11:21] <ogra> oh, i misread .... didnt swee the "in"
[11:21] <ogra> *see
[11:22] <sladen> omeg: the spec is that it needs to be a separate colour.
[11:22] <ogra> sladen, whats wrong with uding them now ? 
[11:22] <omeg> Ah, okay.
[11:22] <ogra> *using
[11:22] <omeg> So it doesn't matter whether it's red or not; it just needs to be a unique color.
[11:22] <infinity> omeg: No, it doesn' thave to be red.  Making it one of the really bright colours from your dithered image would work.
[11:22] <omeg> One that's not used in the dithering in the image.
[11:22] <omeg> infinity: er...
[11:22] <infinity> It could be reused, there's no reason why not.
[11:22] <omeg> Ah
[11:22] <infinity> It just needs to be in a specific palette location.
[11:22] <omeg> Okay then. I personally think that the brightest color would work.
[11:23] <omeg> Do I need to arrange the palette myself, or can I just mention which color entries are the right ones?
[11:23] <infinity> Less effort for me if you fix the palette yourself.
[11:23] <sladen> omeg: might be easiest if you do, since then you're in control
[11:23] <infinity> #define BACKGROUND_COLOUR 0
[11:23] <infinity> #define PROGRESSBAR_COLOUR 1
[11:23] <infinity> #define PROGRESSBAR_BACKGROUND 4
[11:23] <infinity> #define TEXT_BACKGROUND 0
[11:23] <infinity> #define TEXT_FOREGROUND 2
[11:23] <infinity> #define RED 13
[11:23] <infinity> Those are the palette locations.
[11:24] <sladen> omeg: the locations are on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USplashCustomizationHowto
[11:24] <omeg> I'm not sure if I can do that with Photoshop (yes, I'm not using gimp, hehe)
[11:24] <omeg> I'll look aroaund
[11:24] <omeg> *around.
[11:25] <sladen> omeg: ahhh, that's why the dithered is ordered and looks crap compared to GIMP's dithering :)
[11:25] <omeg> Tsh. It's "error in diffusion" dithering at 72% with manual tuning and tweaking... :P
[11:26] <infinity> sladen: The wiki seems wrong.  The source doesn't actually reference palette location 8 at all.
[11:27] <omeg> infinity, would it be easy for you to fix? I can't seem to be able to easily alter palette locations in Photoshop.
[11:27] <omeg> Maybe if I first save it with the pixels lined up in order at the top-left of the image...
[11:27] <omeg> Nope, can't fool it.
[11:28] <omeg> Ah, looks like it always sorts the palette depending on how often a color is used (black is always first, white last).
[11:28] <sladen> can't you just copy and paste the the #NNNNNN colour values into each location
[11:28] <omeg> Or maybe that's just luminance.
[11:28] <sladen> omeg: grab a copy of the GIMP and you should be able to fix it up fairly easily
[11:28] <omeg> It seems not.
[11:28] <sladen> omeg: it's on the LiveCD if you're using Windows
[11:29] <omeg> I guess I could do that if it's necessary. Depends on if infinity is able to do it easily himself, that could save some time (and him some sleep) :)
[11:29] <infinity> omeg: I can do it here.
[11:30] <infinity> omeg: The GIMP for Win32 works well enough, though.
[11:30] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR.png <-- do you think these colors are better? (refresh)
[11:30] <infinity> omeg: And if you're going to do versions for the derivatives, would be nice for you to mangle them yourself.
[11:30] <infinity> omeg: That looks less offensive, yeah.
[11:30] <omeg> Hmm, yeah, you're right. It would be nice if you could do this one, though. It's 23:30 here in the Netherlands.
[11:31] <infinity> omeg: Bah, it's 7:30am in Australia, and I haven't slept yet. :)
[11:31] <omeg> :)
[11:31] <sladen> omeg: looks better.  what about with the most saturated orange in the palette
[11:31] <omeg> Okay, you win.
[11:31] <sladen> omeg: eg, the one just below the half-way point in the logo
[11:31] <infinity> omeg: Try with colour #9 for "fail"
[11:32] <infinity> (Assuming Photoshop shows the palette 0-indexed...
[11:32] <infinity> #ff9e4d
[11:32] <infinity> That one.
[11:32] <omeg> Trying.
[11:33] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR_ALT.png
[11:33] <infinity> Lovely.
[11:33] <omeg> Yeah, that does look more "correct" than the white one.
[11:33] <omeg> Less threatening, though, but I don't think it should necessarily be threatening. :)
[11:34] <infinity> It sticks out enough to take notice.
[11:34] <infinity> It doesn't need to hit you over the head.
[11:34] <omeg> Definitely looks better than my initial choice of colors.
[11:34] <infinity> If I need a break from heavy thinking later today, I'll reindex and upload this, I think.
[11:35] <omeg> Yeah, if you have a palette-fixed version, I guess you could just edit the wiki page. Maybe you should leave a note in the "commentary" field saying that you sorted the palette, and that thus other propositions in my folder aren't palette-fixed yet.
[11:36] <sladen> omeg: btw, have you tried putting a 1-pixel border around the progress bar?
[11:38] <sladen> omeg: to something to create a similar 'glow' effect
[11:38] <infinity> Given that the progress bar location is defined in the code, not in the image, he'd have a tough time doing that. :)
[11:40] <sladen> infinity: nope.  the progress-bar location is fixed in the code (for the time being), so it's easy just to paint around where the progress bar is going to be drawn
[11:40] <sladen> (and if the location isn't correct in that image, it can grabbed from one of the vmware screenshots and pasted over
[11:41] <infinity> Oh, true, it is fixed, just meant that without looking at the code, he wouldn't know where.
[11:41] <omeg> Yeah, I thought that it would be defined in the code.
[11:41] <infinity> Anyhow, easy enough to test how it would look.
[11:41] <infinity> I, personally, think the flat progress bar looks good.
[11:41] <infinity> I suspect a border will make it too busy.
[11:41] <sladen> omeg: I tried grabbing one of the two 'shadow' colours and drawing a 1 pixel bar, is 'softens' 
[11:42] <omeg> I think it looks okay. I'd rather have something more graphical. As it is right now, though, the emphasis lies on the logo, which is okay. The bar serves to accompany the text rather than the logo, and it looks just as plain as the text.
[11:42] <sladen> it softens it slightly
[11:42] <omeg> sladen: are you sure that where I placed the bar, it will actually be placed in the code?
[11:42] <sladen> omeg: yup okay.  Thanks for all your hard work on those images btw!
[11:44] <sladen> if it isn't then we'll end up with two visible bars, one that works and one that doesn't!  
[11:44] <sladen> omeg: if you grab: http://www.ubuntu.com/include/testing/flight5/usplash-shut-down-movie.gif  which is a vmware capture and overlay it, you'll have the exact location
[11:45] <sladen> omeg: and that'll also give you some sample text in the correct location/font
[11:45] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR_ALT.png
[11:45] <omeg> That's how it looks like with a glow.
[11:45] <omeg> Let's see
[11:46] <sladen> omeg: I think it.  so subtle you can hardly see it (which is what makes the main logo and glow look so good
[11:46] <omeg> Ah, looks like mine was in the right position anyway. I used an osdir screenshot to get the position, so I guess they too used a direct screendump.
[11:46] <omeg> Hmm
[11:46] <omeg> I'm still doubting.
[11:47] <omeg> It does give it a little something extra.
[11:47] <infinity> It makes is a bit fuzzy, IMO...
[11:48] <sladen> btw, are the progress bar colours staying chocolate, or are you going to do those in dapper-orange to?
[11:48] <sladen> too?
[11:48] <infinity> I'm not picky one way or the other, though.
[11:49] <infinity> The background of the progress bar is nice in the dark colour.
[11:49] <infinity> The top colour might be nice in a slightly lighter orange than FAIL.
[11:50] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR_ALT.png
[11:50] <omeg> Hmm
[11:50] <omeg> I'm making it just a little darker (the glow)
[11:51] <omeg> Er, actually, that's not possible with this palette. :P
[11:52] <omeg> Can't really make it larger or smaller. It's either this or no glow at all, I think.
[11:52] <sladen> what about index #13 for the progress hilight (ffa75a)
[11:53] <omeg> Would do almost just as well as ff9e4d.
[11:53] <omeg> Would you like me to change it to ffa75a?
[11:54] <sladen> dunno, that was just the one I tried it with and it didn't seem too offense
[11:55] <sladen> less saturated than "fail" and not as bright-white as the first colour you tried
[11:55] <infinity> Anyhow, I've finished my breakfast, and I've just about had my bikeshedding quota for the morning.
[11:55] <sladen> :)
[11:56] <lifeless> launchpad going down in ~10 for about 30
[11:56] <lifeless> shipit upgrade
[12:00] <infinity> That's a long nap..
[12:00] <Keybuk> nap?
[12:01] <omeg> Okay, some more minor changes, changed color of the highlight in the bar to ffa75a and did some more manual dithering.
[12:01] <omeg> Dithering is pretty much perfect now as far as I'm concerned.
[12:01] <wasabi> Hmm. That's odd.
[12:01] <omeg> Nah, night :P
[12:01] <wasabi> jhaltom@station-1:~$ ping station-2
[12:01] <wasabi> ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted
[12:01] <infinity> omeg: Current link with the new dithering?
[12:01] <wasabi> Soebody enable SELinux while I had my head turned? heh
[12:01] <omeg> http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/usplash/new/newsuggestion_0_8_SCALED_BAR_ALT.png
[12:01] <omeg> Probably won't even notice it, though.
[12:01] <omeg> Just one or two pixels here and there.
[12:02] <infinity> Just want to make sure I use the right one if I upload it while you're asleep. :)