[12:03] <mdz> ProN00b: universe is only open source software; sun java is not open source
[12:03] <infinity> mdz: Probably just the belief that anything requiring a hard drive belonged in local, back when Jeff first organised it all.
[12:03] <mdz> ProN00b: the new license allows for it to be in multiverse, which it is
[12:03] <ProN00b> mdz, then multiverse ?
[12:03] <mdke> elmo: around?
[12:03] <ProN00b> can i get it on breezy ?
[12:03] <infinity> ProN00b: It's in multiverse in dapper.
[12:03] <ProN00b> ok
[12:03] <ProN00b> thats cool
[12:04] <wasabi> Sun open sourcing under a real license would be a little disappointing.
[12:04] <wasabi> Since so much work has gone into classpath/etc
[12:05] <ProN00b> whats classpath
[12:05] <wasabi> free implementation of the java class libraries.
[12:05] <wasabi> pretty good.
[12:07] <infinity> mdz: And i realised I missed adding that "Stand by, resuming from hibernate..." message in the last upload.
[12:07] <infinity> mdz: I suspect that's where you were poking in there? :)
[12:07] <mdz> infinity: yes, I'm taking care of it
[12:08] <mdz> but the message will be ugly due to it being in local-premount rather than init-premount
[12:08] <mdz> too late to shuffle things around
[12:13] <mdke> Znarl: around?
[12:18] <nomed> umm .. what does generate /dev/disk/by-label ?
[12:19] <infinity> mdz: http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/sysv/sysvinit.debdiff
[12:19] <infinity> mdz: And yes, that 7 lines of debug-code-diff could be reduced to a one-line diff.
[12:20] <infinity> mdz: And it works smashingly.  No more usplash restarts (the text resetting is really ugly and "we couldn't quite do it right, so here you are" IMO)
[12:20] <infinity> nomed: udev should, ideally.
[12:20] <infinity> nomed: Why?
[12:21] <mdz> infinity: that's how I did the patch the first time, and we decided to do it the current way instead because it was less intrusive
[12:21] <infinity> mdz: Ahh, I don't think I ever saw yours, then.
[12:21] <mdz> and that was 4 weeks ago
[12:21] <infinity> mdz: This works much better.
[12:21] <nomed> infinity: i'm trying to figure out how to use the root=LABEL=xxx
[12:22] <mdz> (actually, I did it with a pid file for usplash, to avoid users being able to keep their processes alive during shutdown by naming them 'usplash')
[12:22] <nomed> but debugin the initramfs it seems i do not get the by-label entries ..
[12:22] <infinity> nomed: You just do.  But it helps if your partitions have sensible labels on them.
[12:22] <infinity> mdz: I did it this way to protect the whole usplash namespace intentionally. (so as to not catch a stray usplash_write in progress or something).
[12:23] <infinity> mdz: IMO, a user naming a process usplash so it doesn't get killed is shooting himself in the foot and I don't much care. :)
[12:25] <infinity> mdz: Also, not having killall start reading random pid files seemed a lot less intrusive to me.  It's already walking proc, so we get this info for free.
[12:26] <infinity> mdz: It also knows the full path to the executable, if you think "/sbin/usplash" would be safer.
[12:27] <mdz> infinity: he's not only shooting himself in the foot, he could be malicious and interfere with our attempts to quiesce the system before turning it off
[12:27] <mdz> infinity: there was nothing random in my patch; it accepted a parameter to exclude a pid from being killed
[12:28] <infinity> mdz: Okay, fair enough for randomly-names images.  /sbin/usplash wouldn't suffer that issue, though.
[12:28] <infinity> mdz: I didn't mean to imply that it was random, just "more intrusive", perhaps.  Either way, they're both pretty simple.
[12:29] <infinity> mdz: Mostly, I just felt the current solution was "good enough for beta", but not ideal to hand out to reviewers (and have users watching on shutdown for 3 years)
[12:29] <infinity> The text starting over from the bottom is a bit unsettling and odd.
[12:35] <nomed> infinity in which cases the "parse_numeric" should run mknod ?
[12:37] <nomed> or better .. in which cases is needed root=4:2 for ex .. ?
[12:37] <infinity> Well, in theory, you'd never use a pure numeric input.
[12:38] <infinity> That's why we try to do it for you.
[12:38] <nomed> i see :)
[12:39] <nomed> so in real it is "a special case" while using udev within an initramfs ..
[12:39] <infinity> nomed: And in the case of /dev/disk/blah/blah, parse_numeric does nothing.
[12:40] <nomed> yep ..
[12:40] <infinity> nomed: Since we will be mounting /dev/disk/blah just as you specified it, we don't do a mknod and mount /dev/root
[12:40] <nomed> ok thanks ..
[12:41] <nomed> i wanted just to be sure 
[12:51] <sladen> infinity: you can go through   readlink /proc/NNN/exe  to find out where the actualy exe is.  And a usplash_write doesn't matter as it's momentary and doesn't matter if killed
[12:52] <infinity> sladen: I don't have to go through it, killall5 already does.  p->argv0 is the full path.
[12:52] <infinity> sladen: So, it's a simple tweak to the patch.
[12:53] <infinity> I just used p->argv0basename because... Well, because I did. :)
[12:53] <infinity> (Simple fix, though)
[01:10] <sladen> mjg59: is there a solution for quashing the power-button event on resume yet?
[01:11] <tritium> I visited http://www.sandiacomputer.com today, and they had a prominent machine on their floor running breezy!  I will definitely buy from them...
[01:13] <LaserJock> tritium: cool
[01:13] <tritium> Definitely.  I was very pleased.  I'm thinking of calling into their radio show, and plugging ubuntu a bit :)
[01:13] <LaserJock> tritium: but breezy? that is so 5.10 ;-)
[01:13] <LaserJock> tritium: yeah, do it
[01:14] <tritium> I'll be sure to encourage and/or help them get dapper on there soon.
[01:26] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, ping
[02:07] <mdke> does anyone know anything about sending large quantities of email? It's not really on-topic but I could do with some expert guidance
[02:08] <mdke> I would like to send an email to lots of ubuntu contributors who are listed in a file, but I am concerned about getting blacklisted or something, I don't know how these things work
[02:08] <Amaranth> send a seperate email for each one
[02:08] <Amaranth> sending to lots of people all in one go will probably flag it as spam
[02:09] <Robot101> if you operate the sending server, or the administrator is happy for you to do it, you can send one mail to multiple recipients with no problems
[02:09] <Robot101> (if you BCC them, rather)
[02:09] <mdke> yeah, I was going to send it as separate emails
[02:09] <mdke> no problems?
[02:11] <Robot101> yeah, it's not apparent by looking at a mail how many people it was BCC'd to
[02:12] <Robot101> not having the sender's address in the To: line may get you a small spam score, but unless you're otherwise odious, nothing should drop it for that alone
[02:12] <mdke> right, but my isp would know
[02:13] <Robot101> you should use a mail server who is happy for you to send such a mailing, and you should also make sure your intended recipients are happy to receive it :P
[02:13] <mdke> Robot101: well, that's pretty difficult, should I mail them to ask? ;)
[02:13] <Burgundavia> mdke, one further thing. Are you expecting all these people to respond?
[02:13] <mdke> Burgundavia: no, no
[02:13] <StevenK> This might end up like Homer Simpson with his autodialer.
[02:14] <bddebian> Howdy peopleseses
[02:14] <Robot101> well, just be polite, either state you're not going to send any more messages, or allow people a way to indicate future interest, or a way for you to never mail them again. :)
[02:14] <Robot101> mdke: what's the mail for?
[02:14] <mdke> it's about relicensing the wiki
[02:14] <mdke> s/re//
[02:14] <Burgundavia> Robot101, we are selling them a bridge with some land in florida
[02:14] <StevenK> mdke: Ah. "Are you happy for your changes to the wiki to be GPL?"
[02:15] <mdke> no. anyway, I don't think my ISP is going to deal with this very well. I think i will hold out and try and grab elmo
[02:16] <mdke> meh, stuff is so difficult
[02:21] <mdke> has anyone seen elmo around? he's at debconf right?
[02:47] <zul> hey
[03:02] <tseng> thom: yay typo
[03:33] <infinity> mdke: apt-get install postfix ; use "localhost" as your SMTP server in your mail client, boom, you're an ISP.
[03:33] <mdke> yeah, the mail is on its way
[03:33] <infinity> mdke: Assuming your ISP doesn't block port 25, that's all you need to do to not worry about this getting filtered.
[03:33] <mdke> infinity: i did a hasty check for my ip in some blacklists, hopefully most people will get the email
[03:34] <Chipzz> wow
[03:34] <Chipzz> cool :)
[03:34] <Chipzz> http://chipzz.studentenweb.org/vimomnicompletion.png
[03:34] <Chipzz> didn't know this actually worked in the terminal versions of vim too :)
[03:34] <mdke> ok, i got my copy
[03:34] <mdke> you guys?
[03:34] <Chipzz> (ctrl-x ctrl-o for anyone who cares ;P)
[03:34] <infinity> I dunno, was I in the list?
[03:35] <mdke> infinity: have you ever edited the wiki?
[03:35] <infinity> Probably?
[03:35] <mdke> heh
[03:35] <infinity> Ahh, and there's the mail. :)
[03:36] <mdke> good news
[03:36] <mdke> it's still churning them out here
[03:36] <mdke> i can't wait for the rejections
[03:36] <infinity> mdke: Why public domain?  Just to avoid attribution hassles that a free copyright would bring?
[03:37] <mdke> yeah, that's basically it. Attribution, and relicensing
[03:37] <crimsun> I'm all about public domain.
[03:38] <infinity> Well, relicensing is simple if you pick an uber-free licese, like the MIT/X11/BSD license.
[03:38] <infinity> But some people dislike having their attribution stripped, that's all.
[03:38] <infinity> For a wiki, I don't really give a shit. :)
[03:38] <infinity> None of the content there is brilliant enough for me to want my name on it anyway.
[03:38] <mdke> infinity: we looked at those, they all seemed to contain a "if you modify, you must use the same licence" thing
[03:38] <mdke> but anyway, it's a wiki
[03:39] <mdke> as you say
[03:40] <infinity> mdke: No, with BSD/MIT/X11, if you modify, you must retain the license text.  That's not the same as not being able to relicense.
[03:41] <mdke> hmm
[03:41] <infinity> mdke: BSD/MIT/X11 stuff can be relicense as GPL (a common case in the free software world), proprietary (Windows has lots of BSD code in it), or anything else you want, so long as the copyright text is preserved somewhere.
[03:41] <infinity> mdke: Hence what I meant about "using a free copyright license keeps attribution intact", since that's really all the BSD license does.
[03:41] <mdke> ok, so sort of dual-licensed on modification?
[03:42] <infinity> BSD reads more like "public domain with attribution"... Which is nonsense, since public domain protects no rights, so BSD uses copyright law to protect exactly one right -- attribution -- and nothing else.
[03:43] <infinity> You could sum the license up in one sentence, but it would be less elegant: "Do whatever you like with this code, but if you do, you must keep my name in it, kthxbye"
[03:43] <infinity> mdke: Like I said, for a wiki, I don't care one way or the other anyway.  Just typing for the sake of typing, I think.
[03:43] <mdke> well, I'm learning
[03:43] <mdke> I didn't look closely at those licenses
[03:43] <infinity> mdke: Well, and because I don't think anyone involved with Free Software should ever be confused about licensing.
[03:44] <infinity> (since we hinge a LOT on understanding and manipulating copyright law... More so than priprietary software vendors do)
[03:44] <mdke> sure
[03:44] <mdke> that was part of the reason for trying to clarify the wiki situation
[03:45] <infinity> Just be glad that most Ubuntu users probably aren't license pedants, so the relicensing should go okay.
[03:45] <mdke> :)
[03:45] <infinity> Had you sent that to a bunch of Debian users/developers, I'd fear for the flamewar that would ensue based on the conclusion of the email.
[03:46] <infinity> (The bit that says "If we don't hear back from many people, we'll assume it's all good and relicense the whole thing")
[03:46] <infinity> Since you so CANNOT do that legally.
[03:46] <mdke> infinity: well, that's quite debateable, I think
[03:46] <infinity> If you don't have consent of the original content writer, you can either stop distributing their content or keep the license as they intended (whatever that was).
[03:46] <infinity> You can't relicense their stuff.  Ever.
[03:47] <mdke> you could quite easily argue that posting to a wiki implies an intention to give the content away
[03:47] <mdke> i think, anyway
[03:47] <mjg59> mdke: You could argue that, but you'd lose the lawsuit
[03:47] <infinity> Only if we have a TOS that says that.
[03:47] <mdke> mjg59: thanks :/
[03:47] <infinity> Posting copyrighted material on the internet doesn't magically make it free.
[03:47] <Burgundavia> infinity, really? half the internet seems to think that
[03:48] <mdke> no, but posting it to a collaborative resource where everyone modifies the pages all the time could imply a waiver of copyright
[03:48] <infinity> Burgundavia: I know they do.  Doesn't make them right.
[03:48] <mjg59> mdke: Copyright is one of those things that it's very hard to give up implicitly
[03:48] <mdke> infinity: what they think *is* exactly the point
[03:48] <Burgundavia> infinity, I have dealt with fun at wikipedia
[03:48] <infinity> "The website HTML, text, images audio, video, software or other content that is made available on this website are the property of someone - the author in the case of content produced elsewhere and reproduced here with permission, or Canonical or its content suppliers. Before you use this content in some way please take care to ensure that you have the relevant rights and permissions from the copyright holder."
[03:48] <infinity> mdke: That's OUR legal disclaimer, linked on the bottom of every wiki page.
[03:49] <mdke> yeah, I know.
[03:49] <infinity> mdke: So, there's no reason to imply that users should think they don't own the content they post.
[03:49] <infinity> Cause we clearly tell them that they DO.
[03:49] <mdke> in respect of the website
[03:50] <infinity> You're going to split hairs and tell me that www.u.c and wiki.u.c aren't related, despite sharing the same legal notice?
[03:51] <infinity> mdke: Oh well.  I wish you luck when you butt heads with someone with less of an "oh well, I don't really care about wiki content anyway" attitude than me.
[03:51] <mdke> infinity: that copyright notice doesn't really exclude what I'm saying, because I'm relying on an implied license
[03:51] <infinity> mdke: There's no such thing as an implied license.
[03:51] <mjg59> mdke: Can you point at any cases where the concept of an implied copyright license has been upheld?
[03:52] <infinity> mdke: We have an implied license to distribute the content if it's posted, we do not OWN it, so we can't strip the owner's copyright.
[03:52] <mdke> mjg59: I'll have a look, I haven't done any research
[03:52] <mdke> but licenses are contracts, and you can easily have contractual obligations which arise from conduct
[03:52] <infinity> You're talking about implied copyright tranferral, not implied licensing.
[03:52] <mdke> especially estoppels
[03:53] <infinity> You would never argue that if I posted a cool image I drew on a bulletin board that it would imply that the board owner owned the image, would you?
[03:53] <mdke> no, i wouldn't
[03:53] <infinity> How is this different?  At all?
[03:53] <mdke> I'm not arguing the wiki owner owns the copyright
[03:53] <infinity> Yes you are.
[03:54] <infinity> You can't relicense it in the public domain if you don't own it.
[03:54] <mdke> well, I don't intend to
[03:54] <mdke> I'm arguing that when you post a document to a collaborative resource that you know is going to be changed by others, you are granting a licence to the world to use the material as they wish
[03:54] <infinity> You have an implied license to distribute on your website, where it was posted.  That's the only implies license I see without a TOS stating otherwise.
[03:54] <mdke> but, it's only arguable, I think
[03:55] <mdke> I'm not saying I'm right for sure
[03:55] <infinity> You'd definitely lose that one in court. :/
[03:55] <mdke> that's hard to say, since neither of us have specified which legal system we're talking about or looked anything up
[03:55] <infinity> Canada and the US are the two I often play in.  Australia, recently, since it's become more relevant to me since moving here.
[03:56] <infinity> You'd be screwed in all 3 of those.
[03:56] <infinity> I suppose you'd be fine in Taiwan, where they only vaguely know what "copyright" is to start with.
[03:56] <dieman> hah
[03:56] <infinity> (Which is great IN Taiwan, a pain when trying to do business internationally)
[03:56] <mjg59> mdke: But that obviously can't hold, since people posting to Wikipedia are only consenting that their material be released under the GFDL
[03:56] <mjg59> (which is a lot more restrictive than public domain)
[03:56] <mdke> mjg59: wikipedia specifies the GFDL
[03:57] <bddebian> Oh, I got it too 
[03:57] <mdke> but let's not argue about it
[03:57] <infinity> mdke: Right, ans we specify nothing but "you own the copyright to the stuff you post"
[03:57] <mjg59> mdke: So if people posting to one wiki are only doing so in the expectation of giving up some rights, why are you arguing that people posting to another wiki are implicitly giving up all rights?
[03:58] <mdke> mjg59: because in the case of wikipedia their expectations are defined by the specific statement of what licence material is released under
[03:58] <mjg59> I don't think you can argue that an expectation of "Do whatever you want with this" holds
[03:58] <mdke> anyway
[03:58] <mjg59> Since that doesn't apply to the most popular wiki in the world
[03:58] <mdke> who cares? we're doing it the safe way anyway
[03:58] <infinity> mdke: "If you don't say anything, we'll assume consent" isn't safe.
[03:59] <mdke> infinity: in that case, I suggest you write to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com
[04:00] <infinity> Note that, unlike trademark law, it's is NOT up to the copyright holder to protect their copyright.  It's up to the copier to make sure he has the legal rights to copy.
[04:00] <mdke> but in the absolutely worst case scenario, people can only bring a legal suit if they've suffered a loss
[04:00] <infinity> So, we can NOT just say "oh, well, we pinged you, you didn't respond, it's ours"
[04:00] <mdke> and they are hardly likely to lose out on profit made by wiki material
[04:00] <mjg59> mdke: No
[04:00] <mjg59> mdke: Most legal systems have statutory damages for copyright infringement
[04:00] <infinity> They can bring criminal charges.
[04:01] <mjg59> infinity: That's rather more dependent
[04:01] <infinity> Copyright is not just a civil offense in most countries.
[04:01] <infinity> (But we'd just take the content down after a C&D, it would never hit a court)
[04:01] <mjg59> In the UK, at least, small scale infringement for non-profit is generally civil rather than criminal
[04:01] <mjg59> (though that may have changed somewhat with the EUCD implementation)
[04:01] <mdke> no one enforces criminal copyright infringement in the UK
[04:01] <infinity> Ahh, fair point on the severity.
[04:01] <mdke> even microsoft have to do their own civil enforcement
[04:02] <mdke> i'm not used to other systems tho
[04:02] <infinity> No, no.  They LIKE to do it. :)
[04:02] <mjg59> mdke: ? 
[04:02] <mjg59> Large-scale copyright infringement is often dealt with as a criminal offense
[04:02] <mjg59> (in the UK)
[04:02] <mdke> that's not been my experience
[04:02] <mjg59> FACT and FAST often work with the police
[04:03] <mjg59> "TWO JAILED AFTER POLICE RAID ONE OF UK'S BIGGEST PIRATE DVD FACTORIES"
[04:03] <mjg59> (http://www.fact-uk.org.uk/site/latest_news/index.htm)
[04:03] <mdke> TWO JAILED AFTER UBUNTU WIKI MAYHEM
[04:03] <infinity> (not that this is relevant to us, really)
[04:03] <infinity> But that's not the point.
[04:03] <mjg59> "FILM piracy has become such a problem that the Metropolitan Police has created a specialist unit to fight it"
[04:03] <mjg59> (etc)
[04:03] <infinity> Arguing that what you're doing is okay because it's smaller scale isn't going to win friends and influence people.
[04:04] <mdke> *pleeease* take it up with the CC
[04:04] <mdke> I didn't take this decision
[04:04] <Burgundavia> "but I only shot one person judge"
[04:04] <infinity> mdke: Is there a log of the meeting where the decision was taken?
[04:04] <mdke> infinity: depending on how far back they go, sure
[04:06] <mdke> I don't know what the right date is though
[04:07] <mdke> oh well, I certainly didn't mean to piss you guys off
[04:15] <bddebian> :-)
[04:24] <infinity> mdke: I'm not pissed off, so much as flabbergasted that an email like this was sent out with anyone really tearing apart what it meant first, that's all. :)
[04:24] <infinity> mdke: I still love you, honest.  And I'll make sure dholbach hugs you sometime.
[04:24] <mdke> thanks
[04:25] <mdke> infinity: the point i think is this: a task like this is impossible to do by asking everyone and getting their consent. An attempt at a reasonable compromise might be to give people a month to withdraw the material, if they care, and if they don't reply, assume that they've given up the material. Where that's wrong, it can be dealt with on a case by case basis by the CC., no doubt 
[04:26] <mdke> now speaking strictly legally, that may be not idea, but it's the only practical way, I think
[04:26] <mdke> ideal*
[04:28] <dieman> im with inifinity on this, i was surprised by the email
[04:28] <mdke> there is no alternative
[04:29] <mdke> aside from starting from scratch, and ditching a lot of material which frankly, people are happy to be used
[04:30] <dieman> http://onyserious.ytmnsfw.com/
[04:34] <bddebian> WTF? Bug #13329
[04:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 13329 in debian-installer "syslinux.cfg not found in the archives" [Minor,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/13329
[04:36] <bddebian> Should hoary bugs be rejected at this point?
[04:37] <crimsun> bddebian: if submitters refuse to test current dapper, I would think so.
[04:46] <lamont> hoary is still a supported release
[04:47] <bddebian> It is?
[04:47] <lamont> so if it's in main, and would qualify as RC, I think it still gets to be fixed..
[04:47] <lamont> 5.04+18 months --> 6.10
[04:47] <bddebian> Wow, hi lamont, haven't "seen" you in a while -)
[04:47] <lamont> and this is may.  so 5 more months
[04:47] <crimsun> lamont: yes, but would we ask them to test a fix in /hoary/ or in /dapper/?
[04:47] <lamont> heh - been lurking
[04:48] <lamont> crimsun: if it's RC, then the fix goes into hoary-{updates,security} as appropriate, if not, then "please test in dapper"
[04:48] <crimsun> afaics, our policy has been to ask them to reproduce the issue(s) in dapper first
[04:48] <lamont> but that's just my opinion
[04:48] <lamont> mind you, RC bugs in hoary at this point are pretty much security bugs... :0)
[04:49] <bddebian> lamont: Yeah but this bug is pretty vague
[04:49] <lamont> hrm.. then while you're asking for clarification, you can ask if they can reproduce it in dapper, ne c'est pas?
[04:50] <bddebian> No habla france'
[04:50] <lamont> me neither
[04:51] <bddebian> Part of the issue is that I don't want to sound more ignorant than I already feel.  Does that bug make sense to anyone else?
[04:51] <lamont> although this network here makes me feel like I'm in oxford all over again
[04:52] <lamont> or rather, tries
[04:52] <infinity> lamont: `That's obvious, since it should have been "n'est ce pas?"
[04:53] <infinity> lamont: (obvious that you don't speak french, that is)
[04:53] <bddebian> WTF is n'est ce pas anyway? :-)
[04:53] <lamont> infinity: yeah - whatever.
[04:53] <lamont> bddebian: "isn't it so" or some such
[04:53] <bddebian> Ah
[04:53] <lamont> roughly equivalent to "ya know?"
[04:54] <lamont> bddebian: heh.. let me go kick doko for us.
[04:55] <lamont> ENODOKO
[04:55] <lamont> bddebian: I'll poke him next time I see him
[04:55] <lamont> and he can reject his own bug. :-)
[04:58] <bddebian> OK
[04:59] <lamont> mdke: I have a complaint about your email.  please use newline characters from time to time.  kthxbye
[04:59] <mdke> lamont: sorry, I didn't know how to do it with the script that I was given
[05:00] <bddebian> Gawd I hate looking at these old bugs
[05:00] <mdke> my apologies
[05:00] <infinity> Hit enter occasionally in your text editor before saving the mail template?
[05:00] <lamont> wimpy excuse.  whatever. :-P :-)
[05:00] <mdke> this hasn't been a success :/
[05:00] <lamont> lol
[05:00] <Burgundavia> mdke, spamming is hard, no?
[05:01] <mdke> apparently so
[05:01] <mdke> they told me it would be so easy!
[05:01] <mdke> big bucks from home
[05:01] <mdke> lies
[05:02] <infinity> You forgot the penis enlargement bit, that's why.
[05:02] <mdke> also, what we have here is a case of shooting the technologically incompetent messenger
[05:02] <bddebian> hahaha
[05:02] <mdke> who chose me for this job anyhow
[05:02] <infinity> You probably volunteered.
[05:02] <infinity> Sucker. :)
[05:03] <bddebian> Bah, fsck it, I can't upload to main anyhow
[05:03] <lamont> mdke: my complaint was specificially about the messenger, you'll notice....
[05:03] <lamont>  /msg infinity picking on mdke is fun, huh
[05:03] <mdke> lamont: yeah, hence the "technologically incompetent" bit
[05:03] <infinity>  /msg lamont And how!
[05:05] <mdke> lamont: everyone more competent to be the messenger was whinging about having to release some OS or something
[05:05] <lamont> they claimed to have real work to do, is that it? :-)
[05:06] <mdke> precisely
[07:12] <shawn_home> mdke: the wiki license change is fine with any of my documentation bits :)
[07:12] <shawn_home> stupid yahoo treated your email as bulk good thing i saw it 
[08:30] <Lathiat> linux-image-amd64-xeon - Linux kernel image on Intel x86_64.
[08:30] <Lathiat> i love that :)
[09:02] <dieman> hah
[09:02] <dieman> nice
[09:02] <dieman> the x86_64 part, really
[09:02] <dieman> because it should be Intel em64t, i guess
[09:02] <dieman> in eithr case, ugh
[09:02] <dieman> either
[11:27] <zyga> hey
[11:27] <zyga> has anyone seen mvo?
[11:28] <Burgundavia> zyga, likely relaxing. It was a distro holiday yesterday
[11:28] <zyga> Burgundavia, bah, I have a update-manager backtrace for him
[11:52] <xor_not_and> does ubuntu use any BSD style internals, like init instead of SysVInit?
[11:54] <xor_not_and> (ok..then) is there anything original in ubuntu other than the graphics?
[12:37] <sladen> lmanul: ping
[12:38] <sladen> lmanul: I want to have a talk about g-p-m if you're around
[12:41] <Riddell> mdke: are we going to have the whole ubuntu book included or just an excert?
[12:42] <mdke> Riddell: just exerpts, afaik. But I don't know much about it
[12:42] <Riddell> mdke: who would know?
[12:42] <mdke> Riddell: Mark, Jane
[12:42] <Riddell> thanks
[12:42] <mdke> ok
[12:44] <sladen> mdke: Desktop and Support chapters AFAIK
[12:45] <mdke> and Kubuntu
[12:45] <\sh> mdke: ah..did you receive my email about wiki license change?
[12:45] <mdke> \sh: yes
[12:46] <mdke> \sh: I'm unlikely to respond to all the mails I get answering that, I'm afraid
[12:46] <\sh> mdke: I can imagine :) but I think this matter has to be addressed somehow...because I don't want to have my personality in the public domain ;)
[12:47] <sladen> mdke: I'm happy for all my changes to be considered PD
[12:47] <mdke> thanks
[12:50] <ajmitch> mdke: what happens if you can't reach every wiki contributor, or some don't want to go PD?
[12:51] <mdke> ajmitch: they write to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com with their concerns
[12:55] <mjg59> mdke: Having thought about it, I don't think I'm happy with my stuff being PD
[12:56] <mjg59> I don't want it being incorporated into non-free works
[12:56] <mdke> mjg59: same applies ^
[01:35] <nomed> hi all ...
[01:36] <nomed> i was reading the wiki page "LiveCDPersistence", i'd like to know if there is an error .. in that case i can edit it ...
[01:37] <nomed> in casper the function:
[01:37] <nomed> ** find_cow_device **
[01:37] <nomed> search first a device with label casper-rw 
[01:38] <nomed> and if not it tries to mount a vfat file system ..
[01:39] <nomed> and then check if /cow-backing/casper-rw exists ..
[01:40] <nomed> in the wiki page it's explained :
[01:41] <nomed> a) while using label approach .. vfat "won't work"
[01:42] <nomed> b) while using "Loopback File" "This partition can be any type" vfat , ext3 ,ext2
[01:43] <nomed> why "vfat" won't work ? it seems it should ..
[01:45] <nomed> and i'm not sure about this . but it seems even that "Loopback File"  works just on a vfat partition ..
[01:47] <nomed> Mithrandir: around ?
[02:21] <bddebian> Hello
[02:22] <pygi> hey bddebian 
[02:22] <bddebian> Hi pygi
[02:51] <omeg> Wooh, first bug report. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/45739
[02:51] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45739 in Ubuntu "Loud startup noise during boot" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[02:51] <omeg> Not really a bug, anyway.
[02:51] <omeg> Aha.
[02:52] <omeg> Very cool.
[02:54] <lmanul> sladen: pong
[02:54] <lmanul> A little late, sorry :)
[03:02] <sabdfl> help
[03:02] <pygi> sabdfl, what happened?
[03:02] <sabdfl> anybody else seen "Computer" and "Wastebasket" show up on their desktop?
[03:04] <phanatic> sabdfl: i saw them, but they disappeared after reboot
[03:07] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hello
[03:08] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, I've updated package, thank you.
[03:12] <sabdfl> phanatic: ok, thanks, i'll try
[03:15] <phanatic> sabdfl: do you have some free minutes maybe?
[03:26] <sabdfl> phanatic, sure, privmsg
[03:36] <sladen> lmanul: still around regarding g-p-m?
[03:36] <lmanul> sladen: yep
[03:42] <sladen> lmanul: -> /query
[03:42] <Mithrandir> nomed: hiya
[03:43] <nomed> hi Mithrandir
[03:43] <nomed> could you scroll back ?
[03:43] <nomed> that "persistent" (maybe) issue 
[03:44] <nomed> i guess there are wrong infos on the wiki ...
[03:44] <Mithrandir> nomed: you can't use vfat as the file system of the cow device since vfat doesn't have such things as owner, modes, etc.
[03:46] <nomed> 'elif [ "$(get_fstype ${devname})" = "vfat" ] ; then' in find_cow_device ?
[03:48] <mdke> hi nomed
[03:48] <Mithrandir> nomed: if you want to store the cow fs in a file, you have to use vfat for the fs where you store the cow file.  If you use a device directly as a cow device, it can be any fs which is supported by the initramfs and which supports traditional unix semantics.
[03:48] <nomed> hey mdke :)
[03:50] <nomed> Mithrandir: k thanks ..
[03:51] <Mithrandir> nomed: I believe the code works the way I've told you now, if not please do tell me and I can fix it.
[03:51] <nomed> Mithrandir: yes .. the code works in this way ..
[03:51] <nomed> the problem are not clear infos on the wiki ...
[03:52] <Mithrandir> nomed: the reason for not allowing the cow file to be on ext2/ext3 is you can't mount those without causing data corruption if they're in use by a suspended system.
[03:52] <nomed> see: LiveCDPersistence (Using a Loopback File) ...
[03:52] <nomed> Mithrandir: yep :)
[03:59] <nomed> Mithrandir: other question ... 
[04:00] <nomed> some months ago i played with unionfs as rootfs ...
[04:00] <nomed> and there were serious problem during the "umount" ...
[04:01] <nomed> and not just in case of "suspend" ...
[04:02] <nomed> i'd like to try to play with casper allowing to boot an iso from an hd partition instead of a cdrom ..
[04:03] <nomed> do you already know any other  particular issue doing this ?
[04:04] <Mithrandir> just make a casper/ directory and put a filesystem.squashfs there, on a vfat partition and it'll just work.
[04:04] <nomed> yes ...
[04:04] <nomed> so you do not suggest to use ext3 *never* ?
[04:05] <Mithrandir> for casper?  Sure, using ext3 on a cow device directly is fine.
[04:05] <nomed> emm ..
[04:05] <_ion> #define cow \
[04:06] <nomed> i mean i put the iso file on an hd ...
[04:06] <nomed> and i boot it from there ...
[04:06] <nomed> i'll abviously need to mount -o loop the iso ..
[04:06] <Mithrandir> _ion: copy-on-write.
[04:06] <_ion> mithrandir: Ah, thanks.
[04:07] <nomed> and then search the squashfs ...
[04:07] <nomed> but i'd like to know if it's a bad idea doing that on an ext3 fs ..
[04:07] <Mithrandir> nomed: no, casper doesn't support putting the ISO on a hard drive.  It supports putting the squashfs on a hard drive.
[04:07] <nomed> Mithrandir: i see ...
[04:08] <nomed> but i'd like to add that ...
[04:08] <nomed> i don't mean i'd like to see it on casper :)
[04:08] <nomed> just that i would test it ..
[04:08] <Mithrandir> sure, that should be fairly easy to add
[04:09] <nomed> yes .. the question is if i shouldn't consider doing that on an ext3 fs 
[04:09] <Mithrandir> it should be fine as long as you don't suspend to disk at the same time
[04:09] <nomed> ok 
[04:11] <mbiebl> Keybuk: ping
[04:11] <nomed> two questions more then it' over :)
[04:12] <nomed> Mithrandir: if i add as rw layer an hd partition, is it possible that there can be "data corruption"?
[04:13] <nomed> again ext3 fs ..
[04:13] <nomed> i 'm not sure how the "umount" all mounted partitions works in this case ..
[04:15] <nomed> and would it be possible to add a :
[04:16] <nomed> [ -f /foo/bar_override ]  && . /foo/bar_override
[04:16] <nomed> at the end of casper ?
[04:17] <omeg> dsas: sound hotkeys won't work when the laptop is booting up. It's too busy to respond to the request.
[04:18] <dsas> they work once the login process has started.
[04:19] <omeg> Didn't work for me. I also experience that the sound keys simply don't work when the computer is too busy in other operating systems.
[04:19] <dsas> Or at least when I hit enter for my password I hold my volume down button till the on screen display appears showing silence.
[04:19] <dsas> omeg: I was only proposing it as a work around anyway, so it doesn't really matter :)
[04:20] <omeg> I guess maybe I could try again. I still think it's an okay request for the wishlist, though. I wish my laptop had one of those old-fashioned wheels with which to turn down the volume rather than those fancy buttons.
[04:20] <omeg> Oh well, I'm going to try and sell it anyway.
[04:21] <sladen> omeg: what type of laptop?
[04:21] <dsas> omeg: I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with the request, I just gave that as an idea to use until it gets changed (if it does)
[04:21] <omeg> A Dell Inspiron 9100.
[04:21] <omeg> Three words: thick, loud, heavy.
[04:22] <omeg> On the other hand, it has a 3.0 GHz pentium 4, 256 MB video RAM, and a 1920x1200 WUXGA screen. Especially the latter is probably a good selling point.
[04:23] <sladen> omeg: I'm hoping for edgy to move volume control/etc down into a small non-GUI daemon
[04:24] <sladen> omeg: ...if other people go along with it
[06:07] <omeg> sladen: non-GUI daemon?
[06:11] <sladen> omeg: a program that runs as part of the core of the system as just speaks to /dev/input and ALSA.  And which is not dependant upon having the full GUI available
[06:11] <sladen> omeg: so it would be available bfore X and regardless of KDE/GNOME/Xubuntu
[06:15] <omeg> Ah, I see.
[06:15] <omeg> Yeah, that would be really cool.
[06:33] <zul> heylo
[06:49] <zyga> hello
[07:18] <bluefoxicy> pitti... no not here.  Hrm..
[08:26] <koke_> where are the translations for the live installer?
[08:28] <mdke> koke_: debian-installer
[08:28] <mdke> koke_: you've only got about another day though
[08:28] <koke_> I like pressure ;P
[08:29] <mdke> there are some strings in "ubiquity" too, i think
[08:29] <koke_> there are a lot of bold strings which its last letter is not bold
[08:29] <koke_> it's weird
[08:29] <koke_> launchpad is still my old friend https://launchpad.net/products/?text=debian-installer
[08:30] <mdke> you need distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/debian-installer
[08:30] <mdke> i'd think
[08:30] <koke_> the real debian-installer appears in position 28th
[08:30] <koke_> :)
[09:05] <koke_> where are the installer translation in the live cd??
[09:06] <mdke> koke_: you just asked that, and got an answer, no?
[09:07] <koke_> mdke: now, I mean in the CD
[09:07] <koke_> in launchpad they appear correctly\
[09:07] <koke_> I want to check if it's not a translation problem
[09:08] <mdke> ah
[09:08] <mdke> no idea
[09:08] <koke_> desperate solution then... find / -iname *.mo
[09:11] <koke_>  /rofs/ wtf?
[09:39] <poimen> somoen knows a internet site that is paying for translations or something? I need to make $300  a month and no job around here??
[09:57] <lucasvo> poimen: which languages do you speak?
[09:57] <poimen> spanish and english
[10:00] <poimen> lucasvd : I speak spanish and english 
[10:09] <Alinux> I'm testing todays buld with VMware
[10:09] <Alinux> but it stopes at 61% of configuring... cron is not installed.
[10:09] <Alinux> I don't know why. :/
[11:28] <ubuntu> I'm having some problems with the new installer
[11:28] <ubuntu> it dies with no message :(
[11:29] <crimsun> ubuntu: are you using a daily image?
[11:29] <ubuntu> crimsun: nope, beta2
[11:29] <ubuntu> btw, I'm koke using irssi :)
[11:30] <ubuntu> I can't change mi nick :/
[11:30] <crimsun> /nick koke
[11:30] <ubuntu> I tried but no success
[11:30] <crimsun> and Colin would appreciate it if you would try the latest daily
[11:30] <ubuntu> I'll download it for tomorrow
[11:31] <ubuntu> some LaptopTesting to do :)
[11:31] <ubuntu> btw /var/log/installer/syslog says ubiquity: /bin/partman exited with code 10
[11:33] <HiddenWolf> ubuntu, that means your nick is taken and you have to pick another one.
[11:33] <koke_> cool, thanks :)
[11:33] <koke_> maybe the nickserv protections
[11:33] <kaur> using dapper beta and usb flashdisk doesn't automount
[11:34] <crimsun> kaur: #ubuntu+1, please
[11:34] <kaur> i was send here from there
[11:35] <koke_> crimsun: do you know what to upgrade in the live apart  from ubiquity to get the latest installer and deps?
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> koke_: ubuntu-desktop and/or ubuntu-live
[11:35] <crimsun> koke_: you could rsync
[11:36] <koke_> rsync from where?
[11:36] <koke_> HiddenWolf: maybe that's too much :)
[11:36] <kaur> from ubuntu +1
[11:37] <kaur> sry
[11:37] <kaur> my mistake