[12:26] <Madpilot> mdke, new admon graphics for Lulu done - they *should* be high rez enough to print cleanly now.
[12:26] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/admon-lulu.tar.gz
[12:26] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, can you give the edubuntu people a hand with the esa css?
[12:26] <Madpilot> the what CSS?
[12:27] <Burgundavia> Edubuntu School Advocacy thing currently has no css
[12:27] <Madpilot> is that in our svn?
[12:27] <Madpilot> I haven't been following the Edubuntu docs at all...
[12:27] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:28] <Madpilot> school-advocacy.xml?
[12:28] <Burgundavia> all of my recent commits have been to it
[12:31] <Madpilot> right
[12:32] <Madpilot> it looks very boring in yelp ;)
[12:32] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:34] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, hold off just a sec
[12:35] <mdke> Madpilot: oh, tits
[12:35] <mdke> i'll try em
[12:38] <mdke> they look BRILLIANT
[12:39] <mdke> good, *ticks box&
[12:47] <mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much dude
[12:48] <Madpilot> np
[01:03] <Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_DG_covers.tar.gz
[01:03] <Madpilot> and http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_back_covers.tar.gz
[01:03] <Madpilot> what else needs covers?
[01:06] <mdke> Madpilot: nothing, that I can think of. :)))
[01:07] <Madpilot> those are just the Desktop Guide covers - should I do Packaging & Server guide?
[01:07] <mdke> oh right.
[01:07] <mdke> so are we going with our text, or lulu text?
[01:07] <Madpilot> I'd really like to go with our text - Lulu's is ugly...
[01:07] <mdke> we can change the fonts don't forget
[01:08] <mdke> the only thing that would change, I *think*, is that Ubuntu Documentation Project would be at the bottom of the page
[01:08] <Madpilot> how much layout control do you have when lulu does the covers for us?
[01:08] <mdke> lemme see
[01:11] <mdke> Madpilot: none, basically. Only the font and font size
[01:11] <Madpilot> bleh
[01:11] <mdke> yeah, that sucks actually
[01:11] <mdke> it's right at the top
[01:12] <Madpilot> I'll bundle the SVGs in a minute, those are easy to modify
[01:12] <Burgundavia> I wonder if Lulu has the same issue Trafford has, having lots of crazy religious books
[01:12] <Madpilot> probably ;)
[01:13] <Madpilot> I was reading about some flaky thing or another - UFOs, I think it was - a while ago, and the flaky guy had a book "published by Lulu Press" available...
[01:13] <Burgundavia> hrh
[01:13] <Burgundavia> heh, even
[01:16] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, have you tried generating a pot out of scribus' xml?
[01:17] <Madpilot> I've never tried to generate a pot out of anything, never mind scribus
[01:17] <Madpilot> these covers are pure SVG, though - all Inkscape work
[01:18] <Burgundavia> I am thinking of the esa stuff
[01:18] <mdke> well, that's valid xml
[01:18] <mdke> why shouldn't xml2po work?
[01:18] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_Covers_SVG.tar.gz <-- the six SVG files
[01:19] <Madpilot> need food - back in a while. mdke, are you going to be here much longer? (I know it's late in .it...)
[01:20] <mdke> Madpilot: i live in London... but no, sleep calls
[01:20] <Madpilot> OK - we can chat tomorrow about covers and such. See you later.
[01:20] <mdke> great, thanks a lot for all that
[01:29] <Burgundavia> http://www.krazypenguin.net/Ubuntu_Dapper_Drake_6.06_Guide <-- oh joy, another ubuntuguide
[01:37] <Madpilot> grand
[01:38] <Madpilot> right, now that I've fed myself, what's up with that Edubuntu doc stuff, Burgundavia?
[01:38] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, we need some css for the esa
[01:44] <Madpilot> gah... this means I'm going to have to figure out xincludes & how XML treats CSS...
[01:44] <mdke> no, he means for the html
[02:12] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
[02:12] <jsgotangco> Madpilot: good morning
[02:12] <jsgotangco> mdke: ping
[02:12] <jsgotangco> Setting up scrollkeeper (0.3.14-11ubuntu4) ...
[02:12] <jsgotangco> Rebuilding the database. This may take some time.
[02:13] <jsgotangco> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml"
[02:13] <jsgotangco> //usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/serverguide/zh_TW/serverguide.xml:401: element include: XInclude error : could not load /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml, and no fallback was found
[02:19] <mdke> yes, we have a bug about it
[02:20] <jsgotangco> cool i didnt notice
[05:34] <poningru> wtf
[05:34] <poningru> http://www.krazypenguin.net/Ubuntu_Dapper_Drake_6.06_Guide
[05:35] <Madpilot> yeah. Burgundavia posted that above- yet another Ubuntuguide fork... joy.
[05:47] <Madpilot> bleh - if you google for "ubuntu help", ubuntuguide is still the fourth link you see...
[05:50] <poningru> yech
[05:50] <poningru> we should invite the guy into ubuntu doc team
[05:51] <poningru> I mean if he wants to put it out in gfdl then why the crap isnt he working with ubuntu-doc
[05:51] <jsgotangco> he chose not to?
[05:52] <Madpilot> he thought he could do a better job on his own? :P
[05:53] <jsgotangco> some people are like that we can't blame 'em
[05:55] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, at least it is not the first
[06:08] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, you seen serenity?
[06:08] <Madpilot> the movie? No.
[06:09] <Burgundavia> good, just watched it
[06:09] <Madpilot> library DVD, or ?
[06:09] <Burgundavia> nah, downloaded a while back
[06:09] <Madpilot> cool. Burn it onto DVD for me?
[06:10] <Burgundavia> I can burn it on to two cds
[06:10] <Madpilot> that'll do
[06:10] <Burgundavia> it is nice. With dapper, totem-gstreamer works for everything but wmv9 and dvds
[06:13] <poningru> the wikimove?
[06:14] <Burgundavia> poningru, the documentation is moving to help.ubuntu.com
[06:21] <poningru> ah
[06:21] <poningru> gotcha
[06:57] <LaserJock> hmm, I wonder how many unoffical Dapper guides there are going to be
[06:58] <Burgundavia> dozens
[06:59] <LaserJock> :/
[07:00] <LaserJock> maybe we should call ours the "unofficial Dapper Guide" and then they wouldn't need to make their own ;-)
[07:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol LaserJock . sad but true
[07:13] (LaserJock/#ubuntu-doc) giving the bot references to the desktop guide is a good start
[07:13] (LaserJock/#ubuntu-doc) I need to troll trough the forums giving references :-)
[07:17] <LaserJock> hmm, it's funny that I've seen at least three claim that they are maintaining the ubuntuguide.org doc
[07:18] <jsgotangco> yay
[07:19] <MysteriousGEGL> greetings
[07:19] <LaserJock> hi MysteriousGEGL 
[07:20] <Madpilot> didn't the author of the original ubuntuguide release it under a Free(ish) license, which is why we're seeing all these clones?
[07:22] <LaserJock> GPL
[07:22] <LaserJock> well, that it it not being maintained anymore
[07:43] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, he later relicensed to us under gfdl and cc-by-sa
[07:44] <Madpilot> right - which formed at least part of the Dapper Ubuntu/Kubuntu DGs, I think?
[07:44] <jsgotangco> heh just want to shout, freesoftware magazine issue 12 is out :)
[07:44] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, got any writing in it?
[07:44] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, URL?
[07:44] <jsgotangco> yeah im suprised it made the cover
[07:44] <jsgotangco> i wrote it like 2 months ago
[07:45] <jsgotangco> its not comprehensive, but good enough for beginnerds
[07:45] <Burgundavia> http://codefromthe70s.org/xp-reinstall.asp <-- everything wrong with XP, in one image
[07:46] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: hehe, obviously he hasn't seen MenusRevisited ;-)
[07:51] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, actually, the people that haven't are the app makers
[07:51] <Burgundavia> wonder how they will react once Linux gets widespread
[07:51] <Burgundavia> how many will try and break the menu system and have a top level menu item with their name on it?
[07:52] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:52] <Burgundavia> and what the community reaction will be
[07:53] <Burgundavia> likely I suspect the reaction will be to whitelist the apps menu to specific set
[07:54] <LaserJock> hmm, well I'd like to work on dynamic menus for Edubuntu Edgy, I wonder if that would help
[07:54] <Burgundavia> what sort of dynamic menus?
[07:55] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, you know, MexiSnax chips are not what they used to be
[07:55] <Madpilot> no?
[07:56] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, on UbuntuScientists you need to tag things that are not packaged, rather show that they are not in Ubuntu by lack of tag, imho
[07:56] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, no. I bought the Salsa Picante. Not very picante
[07:56] <Madpilot> too bad. They still make the Hot ones, last I saw, and those are fairly hot...
[07:57] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: perhaps, but I want to show which ones are in Universe/Multiverse, but maybe it is better to indicate the ones that aren't
[07:57] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, probably
[07:58] <Burgundavia> maybe have different coloured text
[08:00] <LaserJock> ah yeah, that would be cool
[08:00] <Burgundavia> "needs packaging" is good forward looking way to put it
[08:00] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: wrt dynamic menus, the idea would be to have different menu depending on what meta-package is installed
[08:01] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:01] <Burgundavia> not sure I like that
[08:01] <Burgundavia> then you need conflicting metapakcages
[08:01] <Burgundavia> I would rather have the ability to have several installed and chosen by a menu/profile editor
[08:01] <LaserJock> I'm not sure they would conflict
[08:01] <Burgundavia> they would have to
[08:01] <Burgundavia> there is only one menu
[08:02] <LaserJock> but perhaps they would add to or subtract from the menu
[08:02] <LaserJock> I need to spec it out with ogra
[08:03] <Burgundavia> I can see that ending in tears
[08:04] <Burgundavia> what about creating new applets that have different menus?
[08:04] <Burgundavia> that way you don't play with the actual menus, but still have the dynamic part
[08:04] <LaserJock> applets?
[08:05] <Burgundavia> I am truly leary of changing the main menu, because you have an issue if people want both types of menus
[08:06] <Madpilot> LaserJock, some development of the Drawer applet?
[08:06] <Burgundavia> the other major issue with metapackages is it implies internet access
[08:06] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: well, I'm not sure. But edubuntu is going to have to do something
[08:07] <Burgundavia> if you have a "edubuntu-menus" package which is a series of menu applets, you can have that installed by default and then let people choose which one they want
[08:07] <LaserJock> but not change the main menu?
[08:07] <Burgundavia> yep
[08:08] <Burgundavia> by default, the young profile can have a young menu, etc.
[08:08] <Burgundavia> screwing with the main menu is likely to require a huge divergence from upstream and be juggled well to prevent screwing over everybody on the system
[08:09] <LaserJock> I don't think it is a huge divergence, it would be more like MenusRevisited via metapackages
[08:09] <Burgundavia> hmm, plugins end in tears part 9 billion --> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-May/msg00036.html
[08:09] <LaserJock> but I see what your saying
[08:10] <jsgotangco> it would be pretty scary to diverge
[08:10] <Burgundavia> I just don't see how you can do it without hacking around
[08:10] <jsgotangco> the current meta package only switches themes though
[08:10] <Burgundavia> another way would be to extend alacarte to take in the ideas of profiles
[08:11] <jsgotangco> sabayon
[08:11] <Burgundavia> ya
[08:11] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: it seems we'll be busy then heh
[08:11] <LaserJock> perhaps, but again, this is just something ogra was thinking about
[08:12] <Burgundavia> metapackages is also huge problem, I think
[08:12] <jsgotangco> it becomes a web of deps
[08:12] <LaserJock> that is the other thing I'm supposed to work on for Edgy
[08:12] <jsgotangco> cross related deps
[08:12] <Burgundavia> for one, upstream will never accept code that depends on deb packaging crap
[08:12] <LaserJock> edubuntu science meta-packages
[08:12] <Burgundavia> meta pakcagse that instlal stuff are fine
[08:12] <jsgotangco> smoke brb
[08:13] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is an evil habit
[08:14] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, have you or ogra discussed any of this with upstream?
[08:14] <Burgundavia> vuntz runs Ubuntu you known
[08:14] <LaserJock> probably not, but it isn't even braindump at this stage ;-)
[08:15] <Burgundavia> you should
[08:15] <Burgundavia> there is probably a sane way to get dynamic menus
[08:15] <Burgundavia> I should point that I agree with you on the fact that Edubuntu needs to solve the menus issue
[08:16] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: yes im cutting it up (with good progress though)
[08:16] <Burgundavia> cutting it down?
[08:16] <jsgotangco> err
[08:16] <LaserJock> ok, I gotta go guys, cya tomorrow
[08:16] <jsgotangco> sorry
[08:16] <jsgotangco> yeah down
[08:16] <Burgundavia> cya
[08:19] <Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
[08:19] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[08:19] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, 10 days until my work desktop moves to Ubuntu
[08:19] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, just you, or the whole company?
[08:19] <Burgundavia> just me
[08:19] <Burgundavia> our brilliant engineers have been unable to get our stuff going on FC5
[08:20] <jsgotangco> FC5 is horribly broken
[08:20] <Burgundavia> that is what they are finding out
[08:20] <Burgundavia> good thing we just revved our key product and don't need to do that again for a while
[08:20] <jsgotangco> i had issues with mod rewrite when it first came out
[08:20] <jsgotangco> but it is probably fixed now
[08:21] <Burgundavia> they apparently have been having lots of random crashes
[08:21] <Burgundavia> well, if you build in somebodies sandbox, things break occasionally
[08:21] <jsgotangco> lol yeah
[10:09] <nn04> hello everyone
[10:09] <nn04> was wondering if anyone could give some quick pointers on some apt-get problems im having
[10:11] <nn04> ....? anyone
[10:11] <Burgundavia> nn04, this is not really a support channel. I suggest you try #ubuntu
[10:11] <nn04> o, sry bout that, thnx
[10:12] <Burgundavia> np
[10:13] <jsgotangco> wow youre still awake
[10:16] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is only 1am
[10:19] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[10:22] <poningru> its only 4 here
[10:23] <nn04> 330 here
[10:23] <nn04> lol
[10:24] <nn04> i guess ill retry the repository edit and see what comes up
[10:27] <nn04> lol, erik youll never guess why apt-get wasnt working, and your gonna wanna hit me when i tell ya :-D
[12:42] <Madpilot> MysteriousGEGL, ???
[12:42] <MysteriousGEGL> heh
[12:43] <MysteriousGEGL> Generic Graphical Library
[12:43] <Madpilot> why is a graphics lib mysterious?
[12:44] <MysteriousGEGL> i dunno its been like that in GNOME ever since i read it
[05:32] <mdke> meh
[05:32] <mdke> what was the point of asking for feedback on the book if they weren't going to read our feedback :/
[05:36] <mdke> thanks dude
[05:36] <mdke> but really, this annoys me.
[05:36] <jsgotangco> when i get my shengen visa then get to paris i will make sure to call you up
[05:36] <mdke> part of the argument has always been "we got feedback from the community"
[05:36] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:37] <mdke> but mine was pretty much ignored, afaics
[05:37] <jjesse> dude i'm sorry about that
[05:37] <jsgotangco> you were a reviewer right?
[05:37] <jjesse> you commented on my chapter some and i used it
[05:38] <mdke> jjesse: yeah, i wasn't referring to you :)
[05:38] <mdke> chapter 3 still refers to RestrictedFormats even when the answers are in the desktop guide :/
[05:38] <jjesse> grumble
[05:38] <mdke> and it's still awkwardly written for any reader that doesn't share jono's sense of humour or isn't a native english speaker
[05:39] <jjesse> agreed
[05:39] <jsgotangco> i looked at one chapter heh there's a bread picture?
[05:40] <jjesse> mmmm bread
[05:40] <jsgotangco> oh btw, i got an article published at freesoftwaremagazine.com
[05:40] <jsgotangco> its not much, just a thunderbird/enigmail/gpg howto
[05:41] <jsgotangco> at least the publishers are gracious enough to send me o'reiley and apress books as payment
[05:41] <jsgotangco> (its GFDL too)
[06:55] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[07:42] <LaserJock> glatzor: ping?
[07:42] <glatzor> hi LaserJock
[07:43] <LaserJock> glatzor: did you ask me to do the pngcrush UVFe?
[07:43] <glatzor> yes.
[07:43] <LaserJock> it is synced and in the repos
[07:43] <glatzor> LaserJock: great!
[07:45] <LaserJock> hehe, np
[07:45] <LaserJock> that was the fasted UVFe I've done
[07:45] <LaserJock> *fastest
[08:13] <mdke> LaserJock: pong
[08:13] <mdke> awesome work on pngcrush btw
[08:14] <LaserJock> mdke: I just wanted to say that I got pngcrush synced, I'm not sure if you were going to use it at all but I thought I'd let you know
[08:14] <mdke> very cool
[08:15] <LaserJock> well, the MOTU UVF team was awesome and Keybuk synced it without me even asking him to
[08:15] <LaserJock> we really have awesome archive and release managers
[08:15] <mdke> nice
[08:16] <LaserJock> LP has really helped as well, IMO
[08:17] <LaserJock> I just filed the bug with a changelog and diffstat and assigned it to motu-uvf, then they looked it over confirmed it and handed it over to the archive admin team
[08:17] <LaserJock> and I woke up this morning and it was done :-)
[08:21] <mdke> that is pretty sweet
[08:23] <mdke> i think we should build the pdfs for the website without embedded fonts
[08:23] <LaserJock> yeah, it wasn't more than 2 months ago where I'd have to email the ubuntu-motu with the info, and wait for people to discuss/approve it, and then they would have to ping an archive admin on irc or email and ask them for the sync
[08:23] <mdke> that way they will show up in evince
[08:23] <LaserJock> why are the embedded fonts needed? just so everyone has them?
[08:24] <mdke> well, it's so they look the same on Windows
[08:24] <mdke> which for Lulu was quite important
[08:24] <mdke> or rather, on any system
[08:25] <mdke> we're nearly there with the pdfs, Madpilot has fixed the admon icons
[08:25] <LaserJock> hmm, but the text shows up, it's just not quite the same font?
[08:28] <mdke> yes, it uses the system font
[08:29] <LaserJock> yeah, since evince has problems I don't think it would hurt to no embed the fonts
[08:29] <mdke> gah, looks like the problem with some footnotes not showing up is a fop bug.
[08:33] <LaserJock> :/
[09:48] <mdke> Seveas: would it be problematic to have your bug bot in here too?
[09:49] <Seveas> @config channel plugins.bugtracker.bugsnarfer True
[09:50] <Burgundavia> shiny
[09:50] <mdke> Seveas: thanks a lot
[09:50] <Seveas> de nada
[09:50] <Burgundavia> Seveas, noticed you have been getting meaner on the mailing lists when people post bugs
[09:50] <mdke> Burgundavia: i bugged dholbach about the evince thing, no can do. I'll build pdfs which work
[09:50] <mdke> bbl
[09:50] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok
[09:51] <Seveas> Burgundavia, if people don't listen...
[09:51] <Burgundavia> Seveas, indeed
[10:30] <Burgundavia> mdke, hmm?'
[10:30] <Burgundavia> hey jenda 
[10:31] <LaserJock> mdke: what, not enough to do?
[10:31] <jenda> hey, Burgundavia, mdke
[10:32] <mdke> LaserJock: i get to that stage where I have so much to do I can't remember what it is
[10:32] <LaserJock> ah, yes. I'm sort of at that stage today as well
[10:32] <Burgundavia> ya
[10:32] <Burgundavia> I am doing final reviews on the book
[10:33] <mdke> I had a good chat with jono today
[10:33] <mdke> he seems to be quite a reasonable guy
[10:34] <LaserJock> mdke: the RestrictedFormats thing?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> jono is quite a cool guy. I hope to meet with him at some point
[10:34] <mdke> well, not really, just in general about docteam/book collaboration
[10:34] <LaserJock> cool
[10:37] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, restrictedformats thing?
[10:37] <mdke> Burgundavia: jono's chapter 3 points at wiki documents rather than our help
[10:37] <mdke> e.g. RestrictedFormats
[10:37] <Burgundavia> ah
[10:37] <Burgundavia> I have never seen chapter 3
[10:37] <mdke> i pointed out that this was something I'd included in my questionnaire
[10:38] <mdke> but I'm not convinced he read my questionnaire
[10:39] <mdke> i don't think he had time
[10:40] <Burgundavia> hmm, time seems to be a big one
[10:40] <Burgundavia> non of the authors of the book worked on it full time at any point, afaik
[10:40] <LaserJock> I can understand the lack of time but I think I would have put  a Matthew East review pretty high on my priority list ;-)
[10:41] <mdke> i think the docteam would have been able to do a good job on it working collaboratively
[10:41] <mdke> but maybe next time our involvement will be greater
[10:41] <LaserJock> yeah, there seemed to be a lot of firsts with this release
[10:41] <mdke> i explained to jono that if you're really going to ham up the "community" side of a book, you actually have to involve the community, and the docteam already has a good process in place for acting as a pyramid for the wider community
[10:44] <mdke> he seemed to be quite receptive
[10:50] <Madpilot> hi all
[10:52] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
[10:52] <Madpilot> enjoying the lovely weather on your day off, Burgundavia?
[10:53] <Burgundavia> ugh
[10:56] <Madpilot> gah... remind me how to use a .run file again?
[10:56] <Burgundavia> for hwat?
[10:56] <Madpilot> the new UFO:AI demo
[10:56] <Burgundavia>  ./blah.run
[10:57] <Madpilot> thanks
[10:57] <LaserJock> go mdke go!
[11:04] <Madpilot> mdke, do the redone admons work in the PDFs?
[11:04] <mdke> Madpilot: erm, you know they do
[11:05] <mdke> 23:47:26 < mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much dude
[11:05] <mdke> 23:48:12 < Madpilot> np
[11:05] <Madpilot> cool, just checking - wasn't sure if you'd actually used them in a PDF last night
[11:05] <mdke> they look great
[11:05] <mdke> oh i c
[11:05] <mdke> yeah, i meant they look great in the pdfs
[11:05] <Madpilot> good
[11:05] <mdke> spectacular in fact
[11:06] <mdke> i'll do one for you to check out, hang on
[11:07] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/desktopguide.pdf
[11:09] <Madpilot> mdke, that PDF is 82 perfectly blank pages here...
[11:10] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, that's the evince bug
[11:10] <mdke> or poppler, or cairo or whatever
[11:10] <Madpilot> oh
[11:10] <Madpilot> I'll kick acroread to life, then
[11:10] <mdke> i'm going to build some working ones in a sec
[11:13] <Madpilot> nice - works in acroread - and looks good.
[11:14] <mdke> new contributor"!
[11:15] <Madpilot> huh?
[11:15] <Burgundavia> see the mailing list
[11:15] <mdke> ok, same link, pdf should work in evince
[11:17] <Madpilot> it does - looks good
[11:19] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, have you tried the latest ufoai demo yourself? it installs but won't run here...
[11:19] <Burgundavia> nope
[11:20] <Burgundavia> maybe looking for stuff int he wrong dir?
[11:20] <Madpilot> just a sec, I'll pastebin the error msgs I got
[11:20] <Burgundavia> you trying the precompiled binary?
[11:20] <Madpilot> yeah, the .run installer
[11:20] <Burgundavia> mdke, nice work
[11:21] <mdke> i love it when people turn up to the mailing list and just know what to do and send these great patches
[11:22] <Burgundavia> yep
[11:22] <Madpilot> yeah, is good
[11:22] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14491
[11:23] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, try and locate ref_gl.so and then create a symlink to where it is looking for it
[11:24] <Madpilot> that file doesn't seem to exist on this box...
[11:24] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:24] <Burgundavia> dig around on their forums
[11:24] <mdke> packages.ubuntu.com can work its magic
[11:26] <Burgundavia> hmm, no hits
[11:26] <Burgundavia> it must be called something different in Ubuntu/Debian
[11:26] <Madpilot> yeah
[11:27] <Madpilot> ah well, I'll sign up at their forums later
[11:27] <Burgundavia> usr/lib/libGL.so.1 <-- I bet it is looking for this
[11:27] <Burgundavia> find out where it expects ref_gl.so and symlink it
[11:27] <Burgundavia> I seem to remember doing that for an earlier version of UFO:AI
[02:30] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, umm, what is with your name?
[02:30] <jsgotangco> ummm Jerome?
[02:31] <Burgundavia> no, the MysteriousGEGL part
[02:32] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[02:32] <jsgotangco> i was doing a translation on GNOME a few days ago
[02:32] <jsgotangco> i always see that string
[02:34] <Burgundavia> ah
[02:34] <Burgundavia> well, I have to run
[02:34] <jsgotangco> ciao
[07:17] <onkarshinde> I have a question about Restricted Formats page on wiki. In 'Other non-Free formats' section why is use asked to install libxine if he is not asked to install totem-xine?
[07:23] <onkarshinde> I have a question about Restricted Formats page on wiki. In 'Other non-Free formats' section why is use asked to install libxine if he is not asked to install totem-xine?
[07:25] <Madpilot> onkarshinde, probably because that page needs a lot more proofreading than it gets ;)
[07:27] <crimsun> it's probably because it's meant as a catch-all
[07:27] <onkarshinde> Madpilot: You are right. I have already changed all 'aptitude' occurances to 'apt-get'
[07:27] <crimsun> aptitude is just as valid
[07:27] <rob> since I switched to Kubuntu I've noticed that page is really bad to read from a Kubunt POV
[07:28] <Madpilot> bloody aptitude - someone has been going thru the wiki randomly changing apt-get to aptitude...
[07:28] <rob> s/Kubunt/Kubuntu
[07:28] <rob> Madpilot, hehe dam
[07:29] <Madpilot> I know they're both valid, but randomly switching between the two just confuses people
[07:30] <onkarshinde> Can anyone give a quick status as to what is not playable with gstreamer backend in Dapper? AFAIK xine is only needed for DVD playback. For everything else there is Gstreamer
[07:30] <rob> last time I used gstreamer it was horrible
[07:30] <rob> not sure what the current status is now
[07:31] <onkarshinde> rob: Are you talking about Gstreamer 0.8?
[07:32] <rob> yeah it was 0.8
[07:33] <onkarshinde> rob: That is why I want to know how good is GStreamer 0.10. May be it plays everything well except DVD
[07:34] <rob> maybe a good thing to do on a lazy Sunday, fresh install of Ubuntu on an old box/VM and just install GStreamer 0.10 to see what does work/what doesn't
[07:35] <onkarshinde> I neither have old box nor a good VM.  I would rather wait for 1st June when I update my installation. I will then update the wiki page.
[07:36] <rob> yeah, but will you know whats using GStreamer 0.10 and what isn't?
[07:36] <rob> without going insane?
[07:36] <onkarshinde> Yes. I will know.
[07:36] <rob> ok then :)
[07:37] <rob> I'm sure Gstreamer will tell you if its being used or not
[07:38] <rob> I'd could think of many other more interesting things to do then test it though
[07:38] <rob> does the Gstreamer project itself have a list of what works/what doesn't?
[07:39] <onkarshinde> rob: I mainly use Totem. So I will know what can not be played with totem-gstreamer.
[07:39] <onkarshinde> rob: I am not aware of any such list. What I know is DVD support hasn't been ported from 0.8 to 0.10
[07:41] <dsas> onkarshinde: You do have dvd support as far as I remember, you just don't have subtitles and maybe a couple of other things.
[07:42] <dsas> onkarshinde: at least, as far as I can remember.
[07:44] <rob> this might help a little: http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/documentation/plugins.html
[07:44] <onkarshinde> dsas: Never really tried DVD with gstreamer. My PC (doesn't have DVD drive) and my Dad's laptop both are on breezy currently. Will soon upgrade both of them to Dapper.
[07:45] <dsas> onkarshinde: Nor me, I just read it somewhere. Maybe I'll give it a try on my desktop tomorrow if I remember.
[08:03] <Madpilot> hi robitaille 
[08:04] <robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
[08:05] <Burgundavia> salut robitaille Madpilot 
[08:07] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[08:09] <Burgundavia> robitaille, how are you doing with those bugs?
[08:10] <robitaille> I did a few.  Still 55 to go :)
[08:11] <robitaille> but I haven't spent a ton of time on it 
[08:11] <Burgundavia> heh
[08:14] <jsgotangco> hey
[08:29] <Madpilot> fun - anyone else watching the edit war brewing over RestrictedFormats? I predict an apt-get vs aptitude outbreak sometime soon... ;)
[08:29] <crimsun> sick.
[08:29] <rob> hehe
[08:29] <Burgundavia> ugh
[08:29] <Burgundavia> I think we should hunt down all apt-get/aptitude references and kill them
[08:30] <Burgundavia> say instead "install the following packages:"
[08:32] <crimsun> that would actually do nicely
[08:33] <Burgundavia> big job
[08:33] <crimsun> edgy material.
[08:34] <Madpilot> you'd upset all the command line fundies, Burgundavia 
[08:34] <Burgundavia> f*** them
[08:34] <Madpilot> that's a good display of the Ubuntu spirit, right there ;)
[08:34] <Burgundavia> lol
[08:35] <Burgundavia> indeed
[08:37] <Burgundavia> I have let the wiki devolve into a rats nest, tbh
[08:37] <crimsun> that's a bit harsh
[08:37] <Burgundavia> I think I need to carry a big stick and talk softly
[08:37] <crimsun> it's difficult to "police" such a vast crawl of pages by any stretch of the imagination.
[08:38] <Burgundavia> the wiki move should hep
[08:38] <Burgundavia> help, even
[08:39] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: i don't subscribe to your "command line is a bug" belief at all honestly
[08:39] <Burgundavia> why not?
[08:39] <Burgundavia> the command line scares a lot of people
[08:42] <crimsun> I hope it's not a bug, but I understand your perspective.
[08:42] <crimsun> We haven't quite gotten to the point where everything can be manipulated easily using gui tools.
[08:43] <crimsun> At least from the audio side, there have been great strides forward made in Dapper, but there's still considerable to be done. For instance, both Kubuntu and Xubuntu have to muck with asoundconf via cli.
[08:43] <Burgundavia> there is a bigger than just gui tools
[08:44] <Burgundavia> the issue is to try and eliminate configuration as much as possible
[08:44] <rob> Xubuntu users will mostly used the command line I'd say
[08:44] <rob> s/used/use
[08:45] <Burgundavia> rob, what about people using xubuntu on the tuxlabs thin clients in ZA?
[08:45] <rob> I didn't say they will all use the command line (the gnome tools are available), but most users will skip them and just use the command line
[08:46] <Burgundavia> the same could be said for Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[08:46] <rob> Xubuntu is aimed at a different audience, those tools are not installed by default on Xubutnu
[08:47] <Burgundavia> the audience I see for Xubuntu is older computers, not neccessarily those with mroe computer skill
[08:47] <rob> same as a server install, although Restricted Formats won't be that much of an issue for those users
[08:47] <Burgundavia> in fact, those with older computers are even more likely to have less computer skill
[08:47] <rob> even if they don't have the skill, the Gnome tools are not installed by default anyway
[08:53] <Burgundavia> rob, anyway, I think the point is that it would be foolish to assume a certain audience for any distro (except maybe slackware)
[08:53] <rob> it would be, removing reference to command line utilities would be doing exactly that though
[08:54] <Burgundavia> removing reference in the wik is not about that
[08:54] <Burgundavia> it is about saying "there are different ways to insatll this, do the one you feel most comfortable doing"
[08:54] <rob> yes it would, you would be assuming that all users can use/want to use a GUI to do things
[08:55] <Burgundavia> if I say "Install X package", I am not prejudicing someone to use one tool
[08:55] <Burgundavia> if you say "apt-get install X", you are
[08:55] <rob> I don't have a problem with how it is now, although I would like to see more gui ways of doing things I don't think that should be at the expense of cli alternatives
[08:57] <Burgundavia> anybody who uses Linux for any length of time is going to exposed to some communities members fetish for promoting the command line
[08:57] <Burgundavia> note I said promoting, not using
[08:57] <rob> perhaps a solution similar to the desktop guide can be done, ie here is a list of packages, choose your poison at PackageInstallation (or something)
[08:57] <Burgundavia> I use the CLI, I certainly don't promote it
[08:57] <Burgundavia> that is exactly what I was proposing
[08:58] <rob> I guess we agree then :)
[08:58] <Burgundavia> excellent, always good
[08:59] <Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5004584.stm <-- old people being subjected to Windows. Oh fabjous joy
[09:00] <rob> my wife is trying to con me into buying her a $400 software package for her new child care business
[09:02] <Burgundavia> $400?? what for?
[09:02] <rob> accounting package spesificly for child care
[09:02] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:02] <Burgundavia> they probably have the market sewn up
[09:02] <rob> http://www.harmonysoftware.com.au/Products.htm
[09:02] <rob> I'd also have to run it using Wine, or Crossover or something too
[09:03] <rob> pretty restrictive licence too, can't on sell your licence
[09:03] <rob> well, not without paying $165
[09:13] <mdke> morning
[09:13] <mdke> Burgundavia: good idea about the wiki and removing specific methods of installing packages
[09:16] <Burgundavia> mdke, given my personal todo list has just emptied, at least with regards to Ubuntu, I will start in on it soonish
[09:16] <mdke> wicked
[09:16] <mdke> ok, cya later
[09:17] <Madpilot> cool, another giant stream of wiki change emails from Burgundavia - it'll be like Christmas all over again! :)
[09:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, that was because I was stuck in bed recuperating from surgery with nothing but a laptop and lot of time on my hands
[09:19] <Burgundavia> anyway, I have to work tomorrow
[09:19] <Burgundavia> night all
[10:28] <ajmitch> evening all
[10:40] <ajmitch> is there some way to stop destructive (if potentially well-meaning) wiki users?
[10:41] <rob> without acls?
[10:41] <rob> not really
[10:41] <rob> although pages can be rolled back
[10:41] <ajmitch> just someone who's creating a number of jumk pages, renaming some of the category pages at the moment
[10:42] <rob> without stopping everyone, or using acls there is nothing that could stop them creating pages
[10:42] <ajmitch> & the renaming, etc of pages like CategoryDocumentation?
[10:43] <rob> not sure about renaming, moin may have an option to disallow it for all (doesn't need to happen all that often anyway)
[10:43] <mdke> yeah, i think we'll disallow renaming on the new help wiki
[10:44] <ajmitch> I guess it'll just be a cleanup job then..
[10:44] <mdke> where has Cat Documentation gone?
[10:44] <rob> can't wait for the new wiki to happen, that will rock
[10:44] <ajmitch> mdke: renamed, replaced with crap
[10:44] <mdke> "crap"?
[10:44] <ajmitch> a dns zone file 
[10:44] <ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ruwanDocumentation
[10:45] <mdke> ok
[10:45] <ajmitch> almost as useful as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dns
[10:45] <rob> a bot maybe?
[10:45] <ajmitch> probably not
[10:46] <mdke> i'll ask in #launchpad to disable
[10:46] <ajmitch> history of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ruwan
[10:46] <ajmitch> has a name to go with it
[10:46] <rob> seems kind of useless, maybe someone using it to transfer settings or something
[10:46] <ajmitch> other pages have just junk
[10:47] <rob> maybe someone just doesn't know what they are doing?
[10:47] <mdke> i don't think rolling this back is going to be easy
[10:47] <rob> pretty weird
[10:47] <ajmitch> that's why I thought they were potentially well-meaning
[10:47] <ajmitch> mdke: I've got all the changes made
[10:47] <ajmitch> hm
[10:47] <mdke> ajmitch: sometimes renaming pages can get in the way of rolling back
[10:48] <rob> I could never bring myself to subject myself to subscribing to the whole wiki
[10:49] <ajmitch> ah good, someone reverted the changes made to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home
[10:49] <rob> oh, cool the launched the Ubuntu Pro certs
[10:50] <ajmitch> wasn't that launched awhile back?
[10:50] <ajmitch> LPI exams?
[10:50] <rob> 18 may-ish
[10:50] <ajmitch> mdke: thanks :)
[10:50] <poningru> rob: they did?
[10:50] <rob> http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1000
[10:51] <mdke> ajmitch: what else has he massacred?
[10:51] <ajmitch> rob: ah, first people to sit it
[10:51] <rob> yep
[10:51] <rob> I wonder how long that will take to filter down
[10:51] <ajmitch> mdke: CategoryAccessibility, became amila-dns
[10:51] <poningru> sweet
[10:52] <mdke> thanks
[10:52] <rob> does anyone know where the profits from the official Ubuntu Shop go?
[10:53] <rob> ah, bounty fund by the looks
[10:53] <ajmitch> this ruwan chap seems rather bored to keep at this
[10:54] <rob> aww there's no Ubuntu stein
[10:55] <rob> there is a thong and a baby bib though
[10:55] <poningru> whats a stein?
[10:55] <ajmitch> beer is *far* more important
[10:55] <rob> poningru, big German beer glass
[10:56] <poningru> wow
[10:56] <poningru> thats huge
[10:56] <poningru> how much liquid does that hold?
[10:56] <rob> at least a stubby/tinnie I think
[10:56] <rob> 10" 3/4 Liter
[10:57] <rob> 20 oz
[10:57] <ajmitch> that's not too bad
[10:57] <ajmitch> ~2 stubbies
[10:57] <rob> http://store.yahoo.com/123gosteinbach/german-beer-steins.html
[10:57] <poningru> wow
[10:57] <poningru> 3/4 of a liter?
[10:57] <rob> good ones have lids
[10:58] <poningru> can people drink that much beer in a sitting?
[10:58] <ajmitch> poningru: sure, why not?
[10:58] <rob> I usually polish off several
[10:58] <ajmitch> it's not that much really
[10:59] <rob> I kind of feel like a beer now after all this beer talk
[10:59] <ajmitch> heh
[10:59] <poningru> well in the u.s they usually recomend drinking 4 liters of water a day
[10:59] <poningru> so I mean thats kinda...
[11:00] <ajmitch> of course if you're drinking weak 'beer' like fosters, 3/4 of a litre isn't that much :)
[11:00] <rob> well American beer is so watered down..
[11:00] <poningru> yeah I dont like beer much
[11:00] <poningru> most people say its because I only have access to american beer
[11:00] <rob> I don't think any Australian actually drinks Fosters
[11:01] <ajmitch> that's why it's exported
[11:01] <rob> I can't spell beer, so I just stick to XXXX
[11:01] <ajmitch> ah yes, you're in queensland, aren't you?
[11:01] <rob> yeah
[11:03] <rob> I think I'm going to go have coffee or something
[11:40] <jsgotangco> mmm beer
[11:47] <ajmitch> heh
[05:24] <jjesse> mdke: ping?
[05:24] <mdke> jjesse: pong
[05:25] <jjesse> can i ask a favor of you?  i'm a little stupid on this whole convert my chapter to html and apply a CSS stylesheet, is it something you could handle?
[05:25] <mdke> jjesse: I don't know, what format is it in?
[05:25] <jjesse> .doc right now
[05:26] <jjesse> i have no idea what to do
[05:26] <mdke> jjesse: did you ask jono how he did it?
[05:26] <jjesse> yeah he converted his to text and then used html tags to do it
[05:26] <mdke> maybe you can use OOo  to convert to html
[05:27] <mdke> file -> export -> xhtml
[05:30] <jjesse> ok, i'll try and look at it
[07:54] <mdke> evening
[07:55] <Burgwork> salut mdke 
[07:55] <mdke> Burgwork: any comments on that email?
[07:55] <Burgwork> just send it about 2 minutes ago
[07:55] <mdke> thanks
[07:55] <Burgwork> np
[07:56] <Burgwork> figured it needed to be sent, for people to refer to
[07:56] <mdke> hang on
[07:56] <mdke> are we talking about the same email?
[07:56] <mdke> I'm talking about the wiki move email
[07:56] <Burgwork> oh, that one
[07:56] <mdke> i'm going to send it off now
[07:57] <Burgwork> nope, looks good
[07:58] <LaserJock> Burgwork: but you left out the consequences of reverting the changes ;-)
[07:58] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I was being nice
[07:59] <Burgwork> plus, it doesn't follow the CoC to tell someone I would send them to speak with the fishes if they reverted my changes
[08:00] <mdke> LaserJock: have you got any free time today?
[08:00] <LaserJock> mdke: what do you need?
[08:00] <mdke> LaserJock: update the repo for the last two uploads of ubuntu-docs
[08:00] <mdke> LaserJock: oh ye with the fast bandwidth
[08:00] <LaserJock> mdke: on it
[08:01] <mdke> LaserJock: wonderful, I have a long todo list :) thanks a lot
[08:01] <LaserJock> np
[08:01] <Burgwork> mdke, one of the big reasons I have held off moving to Europe is the cost of bandwidth. Here I have so much for so little cost
[08:02] <mdke> meh
[08:02] <mdke> 256Kbits here
[08:02] <LaserJock> well, I wouldn't have good bandwidth except for the uni
[08:11] <LaserJock> mdke: looks like we only need the last upload, 6.05.6 , right?
[08:11] <mdke> LaserJock: there are some changes to debian/README that we haven't got from -5
[08:11] <mdke> trivial tho
[08:12] <LaserJock> hmm, ok
[08:28] <LaserJock> mdke: so the browser-startpages should have the Dapper Drake -> LTS change in the HTML, right?
[08:28] <mdke> LaserJock: yes
[08:29] <LaserJock> ok, just making sure. it is a hefty change
[08:31] <LaserJock> mdke: did you previously update the sk translation of DG?
[08:32] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah, I sent him a patch, which we have in the repo already
[08:37] <LaserJock> mdke: done, rev. 3093
[08:37] <mdke> thanks a lot matey
[08:38] <LaserJock> I should just make a script that grabs the latest ubuntu-docs and makes a debdiff :-)
[08:41] <LaserJock> I do wish we had a bit better system setup for packager<->svn communication
[08:45] <mdke> indeed
[08:48] <LaserJock> I really don't, other than me becoming a core-dev and doing all the packaging ;-)
[08:49] <LaserJock> I mean, you could give dholbach and Riddell svn access
[08:49] <mdke> riddell has it
[08:49] <LaserJock> but that doesn't seem very elegant
[08:49] <LaserJock> he does?
[08:49] <mdke> dholbach should have it, depending on whether elmo has responded
[08:49] <LaserJock> hmm, ok
[08:50] <LaserJock> bzr would be cool, but ...
[08:50] <LaserJock> I'm sort of off the bzr thing as far as the doc repo for now, it is just too slow and I think our current setup works well enough
[08:51] <mdke> ah right
[08:51] <Riddell> I do but I've lost my password
[08:51] <Riddell> or something, it wouldn't let me in when I tried last
[08:52] <LaserJock> I would personally like to see some split up of the repo into kubuntu, ubuntu, edubuntu, and generic but I think there are some practicality issues
[09:56] <ssam> the installation process for installing MacOnLinux changed between breezy and dapper so i made a new page MacOnLinuxHowtoDapper on the wiki (the old one was MacOnLinuxHowto)
[09:57] <Burgwork> ssam, as a general rule, avoid release names in titles
[09:57] <ssam> what should i do now
[09:57] <ssam> should i rename the old one to MacOnLinuxHowtoOld
[09:58] <ssam> or have an old release section?
[09:59] <Burgwork> rob, are you around
[09:59] <Burgwork> ssam, can you safely merge them into a single page?
[09:59] <ssam> i am asking now because i saw the email about putting CategoryDocumentation on doc pages
[10:00] <ssam> i should be able to merge them
[10:00] <Burgwork> ssam, thanks for your work
[10:00] <Burgwork> rob, you around?
[10:01] <ssam> do i need to do this before the pages are moved? and when will that be?
[10:02] <Burgwork> ssam, it doesn't matter, either way
[10:03] <ssam> ok, thanks. i dont really have time to do it tonight.
[10:19] <mdke> back
[10:50] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[10:51] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah
[10:51] <LaserJock> mdke: umm, how is revert used in British english?
[10:51] <mdke> it means to undo
[10:52] <mdke> or to get back to somebody
[10:52] <LaserJock> ah
[10:52] <LaserJock> the second one is what I was wondering about
[10:53] <mdke> I'll revert with information = I'll get back to you with information
[10:53] <LaserJock> I'm emailing back and forth with the Canonical travel agent and they keep using " I'll revert tomorrow"
[10:53] <trappist> wow, never heard that one
[10:53] <mdke> trappist!
[10:53] <LaserJock> I've never seen that used so I wondered if it was a British thing
[10:53] <trappist> mdke: :)
[10:53] <mdke> how's it going?
[10:53] <crimsun> interestingly enough it's used fairly often here
[10:55] <LaserJock> crimsun: really? I've never seen it used that way
[10:55] <trappist> no hint of that usage on dictionary.com
[10:55] <trappist> mdke: can't complain, but awfully busy.  I hope to be active again here in a couple of weeks
[10:56] <mdke> trappist: great
[10:57] <trappist> crimsun: btw that eterm bug is finally squashed.  so thanks again.
[10:58] <crimsun> trappist: I saw, thanks for confirming.
[11:00] <crimsun> LaserJock: urbandictionary has it, too
[11:11] <mdke> awww rocking
[11:12] <mdke> wiki move is basically ready
[11:14] <mdke> Burgwork: around?
[11:14] <Burgwork> yep
[11:14] <Burgwork> always
[11:14] <mdke> good
[11:14] <mdke> for the tabs on the new help site, we reckon they are a bit long, so I think we should remove the codenames
[11:14] <Burgwork> hmm
[11:14] <mdke> so, 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs
[11:14] <Burgwork> problem is, some people only know them by the nicknames
[11:15] <mdke> Burgwork: you might not have seen, but today there was a removing codenames rampage
[11:15] <Burgwork> yep, I saw that
[11:15] <mdke> so it makes sense for us to remove em from the help site too
[11:15] <mdke> but they are definitely too long, I think it's a good thing to remove em
[11:16] <LaserJock> the frontpage could have the codename -> number mapping
[11:17] <mdke> I was thinking we would default to 6.06 as the frontpage
[11:17] <mdke> it will be localised, so that's a bonus
[11:17] <LaserJock> how would it be localised?
[11:17] <mdke> well, like http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/index.ko.html
[11:18] <LaserJock> do you have to pick which one?
[11:18] <mdke> no, hopefully it will do it automatically
[11:18] <LaserJock> wow, I don't know how it would do that but cool
[11:19] <mdke> apache does these things
[11:20] <LaserJock> amazing
[11:24] <mdke> Burgwork: so you don't like the idea of removing the codenames?
[11:24] <mdke> what do others think?
[11:24] <Burgwork> mdke, no, I don't
[11:25] <Burgwork> there is simply too much out there that jus says "ubuntu dapper" or "ubuntu breezy"
[11:25] <mdke> Burgwork: even if they have been removed from the distribution/website?
[11:25] <Burgwork> it is mostly what people are writing in the fourms/news articles/etc.
[11:25] <mdke> listen
[11:25] <mdke> i agree with that
[11:25] <mdke> but given that there has clearly been a top-down decision about this...
[11:26] <mdke> consistency is probably more important, IMO
[11:26] <Burgwork> but all of our docs say "Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake)
[11:26] <LaserJock> not anymore
[11:26] <mdke> Burgwork: which ones?
[11:27] <mdke> only About Ubuntu says it once. the firefox frontpage has been codename purged now
[11:27] <Burgwork> but we cannot purge the forums and the news articles talking about Ubuntu dapper
[11:28] <mdke> no, I agree
[11:28] <mdke> but someone has decided to start trying, and they've started with the distro
[11:28] <Burgwork> I try, but it is a big job
[11:28] <LaserJock> but perhaps if we make a consistent effort the use of codenames will be minimized
[11:28] <Burgwork> a lot of people, when asked, merely say breezy or dapper and don't know the number
[11:28] <LaserJock> although I personally like the codenames
[11:28] <Burgwork> if they knew both I wouldn't be worried
[11:30] <LaserJock> but I think the point is they are going to know only one they should know the number
[11:30] <LaserJock> *is if
[11:30] <Burgwork> I think for the documentation we need to be very pragmatic
[11:30] <LaserJock> but I think that is still weird since the repos still use the code names
[11:30] <Burgwork> for the marketing I say, so for it
[11:31] <Burgwork> documentation is a very different beast. dropping the name might make it hard to find which release they ran
[11:31] <mdke> well, I don't propose we drop the codenames entirely
[11:31] <mdke> just for the tabs, and especially given that they are definitely too big
[11:31] <Burgwork> can we put a tooltip on them?
[11:32] <mdke> I don't know how to put tooltips on websites
[11:32] <Burgwork> javascript voodoo
[11:32] <Burgwork> Madpilot might know
[11:34] <mdke> I'm not keen on putting javascript into the wiki code, tbh
[11:35] <Burgwork> hmm
[11:35] <Burgwork> xchat does not scale well
[11:35] <Burgwork> 9 days until I get a seemless Ubuntu experience at work and at home
[11:35] <mdke> nice
[11:36] <mdke> so what are we going to do about this? put it to a vote or something?
[11:36] <Burgwork> I don't the tabs are too big myself, but I have not looked at it on a smaller screen
[11:38] <mdke> hmm
[11:38] <mdke> I'll mail the list and ask for opinions
[11:43] <LaserJock> they don't look too big here, but I've got a 17" widescreen
[11:47] <LaserJock> but once we start adding edgy, etc. I can see it getting a little crowded
[11:47] <LaserJock> hmm, are we going to add edgy to the tab once the repos open?
[11:48] <robotgeek> Burgwork, mdke : about the codenames. most of the people who ask for support say 5.10 instead of breezy
[11:49] <LaserJock> I think it is getting there for sure, I'm starting to try to use it myself
[11:49] <mdke> robotgeek: ah, that's helpful
[11:49] <mdke> that's my experience with ubuntu-it as well
[11:49] <mdke> LaserJock: no, unstable stuff will stay off there, IMO
[11:49] <LaserJock> :(
[11:49] <mdke> you think it should be there?
[11:50] <LaserJock> I do, actually
[11:50] <robotgeek> i tend to say breezy, and they go. "what? / 5.10"
[11:50] <LaserJock> mdke: my reasoning is that people seem to send in fixes, etc. for the breezy docs when we have already done the fix in the dapper docs
[11:51] <LaserJock> as long as it is clear that it is for 6.10 for instance
[11:52] <mdke> robotgeek: http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
[11:52] <robotgeek> ah, okay
[11:53] <mdke> LaserJock: on the other hand, we could be responsible for breaking people's systems :) I think doc.ubuntu.com for WIP stuff is better
[11:53] <robotgeek> btw, help.ubuntu.com has StyleGuide linked there, might be unncessary
[11:53] <mdke> yeah, I'll remove it when I update the site
[11:54] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm I don't know, I think it would be good to give it a tab at least, even if it is "Development Docs" or something
[11:54] <LaserJock> ack, I need to stop editing half-way through my sentences
[11:55] <LaserJock> I think people should be given a chance to look at the WIP docs
[11:55] <robotgeek> i think this was raised earlier on the ml, but www.ubuntu.com doesn't link to any help directly. we need to make sure that we link to it AFTER we move the wiki over
[11:55] <mdke> ok, plenty of time to think about it
[11:55] <mdke> robotgeek: it has a support tab. I don't think that will change.
[11:56] <LaserJock> mdke: sure, I'm not going to fight over it. I just think that people would find it more consistent
[11:56] <mdke> LaserJock: I'm not saying you're wrong
[11:57] <LaserJock> but you might convince me I am ;-)
[11:57] <mdke> I don't know whether you are or not
[11:57] <LaserJock> my wife says that I'm too easy going, I tend to agree with everybody :-)
[11:58] <LaserJock> I was trying to think of what the repo equivalent would be
[11:58] <LaserJock> I guess it is like how there is cdimages.u.c and releases.u.c
[11:59] <mdke> good point
[11:59] <robotgeek> would a link just suffice, not a tab maybe?
[12:00] <LaserJock> of course releases.u.c has the beta releases on it
[12:00] <LaserJock> perhaps we could do something like put in the devlopment release tab when we reach a certain point
[12:01] <mdke> yeah, we could do that
[12:01] <mdke> I'd like a more structured release cycle, in general
[12:01] <LaserJock> so that people can see/test the docs in progress once they are fairly stable but there is still a chance to make changes
[12:01] <mdke> it would allow us to start translation earlier
[12:01] <mdke> and still permit changes after translation has begun
[12:02] <robotgeek> a rosetta type thing, with wiki syntax for documentation would be nice :)
[12:03] <LaserJock> I think a link from the front pages (h.u.c/6.06 and h.u.c/5.10) to doc.ubuntu.com would be good
[12:04] <mdke> hmm
[12:04] <LaserJock> and then a tab once we reach some point
[12:04] <mdke> maybe a link in the header
[12:05] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:05] <LaserJock> I just feel like we need to make sure people are at least aware of doc.u.c
[12:06] <mdke> man we have come a long way in 6 months
[12:06] <LaserJock> yes
[12:07] <mdke> I'm just trying to make sense of our source package for 5.10, it sucks
[12:07] <robotgeek> good job everyone :)
[12:07] <LaserJock> I have a similar issue with www.ubuntu.com 
[12:08] <mdke> *group hug*
[12:09] <LaserJock> I took me a long time to figure out where to go to get dapper .isos
[12:09] <LaserJock> there isn't a single mention on the download page or the frontpage
[12:10] <LaserJock> I usually ended up going to distrowatch to find links
[12:10] <mdke> well, you know they are hiring a new webmaster?
[12:10] <mdke> I'm sure a big task of theirs will be to fix that
[12:10] <robotgeek> plus compare www.ubuntu.com vs www.edubuntu.org :)
[12:10] <Burgwork> LaserJock, one of my long term plans is to work on the website
[12:10] <LaserJock> yes, and I hope Corey's  idea of having a website ML
[12:11] <LaserJock> is going to work
[12:11] <robotgeek> later LaserJock 
[12:11] <LaserJock> robotgeek: leaving?
[12:11] <mdke> haha
[12:11] <robotgeek> lol
[12:12] <robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i did not know you were on edubuntu council
[12:12] <LaserJock> oh, yeah
[12:12] <LaserJock> well, that is an interesting thing
[12:13] <LaserJock> I'm not sure they know what they are getting ;-)
[12:14] <LaserJock> but it got me a trip to Paris which I'm very grateful for. I hope I can get a lot done
[12:14] <robotgeek> nice
[12:15] <LaserJock> but it does feel weird approving members
[12:16] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you have da powa!
[12:18] <LaserJock> I suppose, but I don't like the 0500 meeting times every other meeting :/
[12:19] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I think it was just ogra's way of getting me to work on Edubuntu more ;-)
[12:19] <Burgwork> LaserJock, likely
[12:19] <LaserJock> now I feel obligated to actually *do* something for it :-)
[12:19] <Burgwork> I have never yet made an Edubuntu meeting, due to the crazy hours they are sometimes held at
[12:20] <Burgwork> wow. rob and I have agreed twice is one day
[12:20] <Burgwork> shocking
[12:20] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, my first one was the one where I was put on the council :-)
[12:20] <Burgwork> mdke, http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ubuntu+6.06&word2=ubuntu+dapper
[12:21] <robotgeek> lol
[12:21] <Burgwork> and http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ubuntu+5.10&word2=ubuntu+breezy
[12:22] <robotgeek> hmm
[12:22] <LaserJock> that is soo funny
[12:22] <Burgwork> if you quote it, the ratios are the same
[12:22] <Burgwork> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22ubuntu+6.06%22&word2=%22ubuntu+dapper%22
[12:22] <Burgwork> ok, wow, that is amazing
[12:23] <robotgeek> http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22ubuntu+breezy%22%2C+%22ubuntu+5.10%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all 
[12:24] <mdke> i don't think this is really the point
[12:24] <mdke> i like the codenames too
[12:24] <Burgwork> http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22ubuntu+dapper%22%2C+%22ubuntu+6.06%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
[12:24] <mdke> but if Canonical have decided to get rid of them, I think we should help
[12:24] <Burgwork> I agree
[12:24] <mdke> and I don't think users are going to get confused if they don't know the names and see the website
[12:24] <Burgwork> but documentation is decriptive, not proscriptive
[12:24] <mdke> they'll just learn the version number, and then move on
[12:25] <Burgwork> and how many will we frustrate before they "learn"
[12:26] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I don't really think any except for some old school users that can probably figure it out
[12:26] <mdke> Burgwork: hardly any.
[12:26] <mdke> anyway, robotgeek says that most users he comes across know the version numbers
[12:26] <LaserJock> see http://www.ubuntu.com/download for example
[12:26] <mdke> after all, they generally installed them, by version number
[12:26] <robotgeek> because when they download it, it has version number
[12:27] <mdke> if Canonical are eliminating codenames, you can count on them being gone from the download sites
[12:27] <Burgwork> only code names upon release
[12:27] <Burgwork> think, vista/longhorn
[12:27] <Burgwork> I think there is too much danger of us having people lost for little benefit
[12:28] <theCore> should we remove the -z and -j flags from the tar commands?
[12:29] <mdke> I think the danger is minimal, and the advantage is considerable: consistency
[12:29] <robotgeek> theCore: no, i use both all the time :)
[12:30] <LaserJock> although personally I think the present tabs are fine
[12:30] <theCore> robotgeek: you don't need them anymore with tar <=1.39 ( if remember well )
[12:31] <theCore> 1.13 actually
[12:31] <LaserJock> theCore: ?
[12:32] <theCore> LaserJock: yes?
[12:32] <Burgwork> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx <-- wow, see MS play up "community"
[12:32] <mdke> rob: if you're here, do you remember how we solved the problem of the disappearing licences in the html output of the faqguide?
[12:33] <LaserJock> theCore: where did you get that info?
[12:33] <robotgeek> anyways, later
[12:34] <LaserJock> cya robotgeek 
[12:35] <theCore> LaserJock: a while ago, when I was building a Linux From Scrach system
[12:35] <LaserJock> theCore: it automatically detects -j or -z?
[12:35] <theCore> LaserJock: yes, based on the file extension
[12:37] <theCore> it was from version 1.15 actually ... :/
[12:38] <LaserJock> hmm, yeah. it seems to work
[12:38] <theCore> http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/#releases
[12:39] <mdke> rob: oh yeah, I remember it (doh)
[12:41] <theCore> the only problem when might have if we remove the -z -j flags, is complains from hoary users, because they have 1.14.x 
[12:43] <LaserJock> mdke: what time is it there?
[12:43] <mdke> nearly midnight
[12:44] <LaserJock> :/
[12:44] <crimsun> the night is young!
[12:49] <LaserJock> I was going to email the travel agent real quick to see if I could move days for flying to Paris
[12:49] <LaserJock> but I might be a little late for that :-)
[12:52] <mdke> ok, good night all
[12:52] <Burgwork> night
[02:36] <Burgundavia> ok, what law says that as soon as I start gardening, it has to rain?
[02:41] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: I believe one by a little irish gent named murphy
[02:41] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: Murphy's ?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> at least the stuff I just transplanted will get watered
[02:42] <nickrud> there was a mail on the doc list today about how to mention installing software on the wiki
[02:42] <nickrud> and a supposed controversy :)
[02:42] <Burgundavia> nickrud, yep, that was me
[02:43] <nickrud> :) Should I look to do that? Me personally, I'd like to just explain cut & paste
[02:44] <Burgundavia> yes, you should
[02:44] <nickrud> hahahaha
[02:44] <Burgundavia> because if you don't, I will, and working makes me cranky :)
[02:45] <nickrud> But seriously, I'm sorta trying to make that page look somewhat like the docs within the limits of the wiki.
[02:46] <nickrud> I can try the cut & paste thing? I was joking, sort of
[02:46] <Burgundavia> be careful with cut and pase
[02:46] <nickrud> oh, out of context, yes, no apt-get, right?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> actually, no mentioning any way to install
[02:47] <nickrud> I remember the discussion from a while back. I have no real opinion myself about it. 
[02:47] <Burgundavia> then good
[02:47] <Burgundavia> you can implement my opinion :)
[02:47] <nickrud> So, what I'll do is finish this cleanup, and create a restrictednew page, and try that there
[02:48] <Burgundavia> like I said, if you don't do it tonight, I am going to do it
[02:48] <Burgundavia> on the actual page
[02:48] <nickrud> nothing like forceful movement :)
[02:49] <Burgundavia> clears the bowels great, don't it?
[02:49] <nickrud> Ok, how about this: I'm gonna go hands off tonight, and see some what you've altered. I'll try to carry thru afterwards
[02:50] <Burgundavia> sure
[02:50] <nickrud> Nothing like making a major change on the major page :) I get the willies myself
[02:51] <Burgundavia> I long ago learned it was better to be bold and face the fire than the other way around
[02:52] <Burgundavia> just ask any of the many people i have disagreed with... :0
[02:52] <Burgundavia> :), rather
[02:52] <nickrud> hah. 
[02:53] <nickrud> So, I'll go bar hopping tonight, and see how much cleanup I'll have left. Top down thru flash
[02:53] <nickrud> Java still needs it's own page, by the way
[02:55] <nickrud> anyway, thanks Burgundavia 
[02:55] <Burgundavia> nickrud, np
[02:57] <nickrud> Oh, one more question: are the icons on the IconPage public domain? I was considering looking for a kde icon to get the attention of the kde people, and couldn't find one that was definitely public domain. I didn't see anything on tuomas's page about licensing
[02:58] <Burgundavia> nickrud, afaik, no
[02:58] <Burgundavia> tbh, the icons are mostly useless
[02:59] <nickrud> Proper icon choice grabs the right people's attention
[02:59] <Burgundavia> the icons enforce too much whitespace around them
[02:59] <nickrud> but boy, do they screw formatting
[03:01] <nickrud> I'll look at making smaller ones, but not tonight. Have fun :)
[03:05] <Burgundavia> wow, Mark is harsh to the art tem
[03:08] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: well there was a nasty debate on the voting process that didnt produce a lot and just wasted some more time...
[03:09] <ajmitch> release, 1 week & counting down?
[03:09] <ajmitch> and they still haven't agreed on art?
[03:11] <ajmitch> hm
[03:11] <ajmitch> harsh but fair :)
[03:11] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, yes I agree
[03:11] <LaserJock> wow, that is a really solid ack of mdke's work. awesome
[03:11] <Burgundavia> he also says some very nice things about mdke 
[03:11] <ajmitch> yeah, that's really good to see
[03:12] <Burgundavia> it would be nice if Canonical picks up mdke full time
[03:12] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostfixCompleteVirtualMailSystemHowto?action=diff&rev2=64&rev1=63 <-- the first of many
[03:12] <jsgotangco> yeah mdke did very good in organising the documentation from start to translation
[03:13] <Burgundavia> the rest of us bums just stood around and kibbitzed
[03:14] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:14] <ajmitch> hehe
[03:16] <LaserJock> I've been around, but I'm not much use documenting stuff I don't use :-/
[03:17] <jsgotangco> its okay we have time to slave around for eft
[03:17] <ajmitch> who's cracking the whip?
[03:17] <LaserJock> I am, I need help on the packaging guide
[03:18] <LaserJock> :-)
[03:18] <Burgundavia> hmm, we need somebody to pick up Myth for edgy
[03:18] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: did the server guide get much traction?
[03:18] <Burgundavia> the instructions on the wiki are insanely complicated
[03:18] <jsgotangco> ajmitch: its actually quite good in its current form, but can be further expanded
[03:19] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, have you ever used phpmyadmin?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:19] <ajmitch> yes, I have
[03:20] <Burgundavia> can one of you check over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallMythOnUbuntu in a sec?
[03:20] <jsgotangco> checking
[03:20] <Burgundavia> it asks you to create a root password
[03:21] <ajmitch> ah
[03:21] <jsgotangco> that looks sooo complicated and too much of an effort for a dvr
[03:21] <Burgundavia> tell me about it
[03:22] <Burgundavia> hence my earlier comment
[03:22] <ajmitch> I don't have a usual phpmyadmin/mysql setup though
[03:22] <LaserJock> dang, I think that has more CLI action then the packaging guide
[03:22] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:23] <jsgotangco> brb need to check amd64 daily for edubuntu
[03:44] <jsgotangco> oohh temper temper
[03:46] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: ?
[03:47] <jsgotangco> art list
[03:47] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:47] <ajmitch> ah
[03:47] <jsgotangco> yeah 
[03:48] <ajmitch> more than just a little temper :)
[03:49] <ajmitch> this guy was in full-on rant mode
[03:53] <mgalvin> temper temper indeed
[03:56] <LaserJock> hmm
[04:02] <LaserJock> does Mark get involved a lot with artwork?
[04:03] <mgalvin> he seems to at very lest be active on the -art list
[04:04] <jsgotangco> not so much with actual art but with suggestions...
[04:04] <jsgotangco> and trying to drive some people
[04:04] <jsgotangco> but its not working for quite some time
[04:05] <ajmitch> when a group needs driven, he does it
[04:05] <LaserJock> well, I just wonder if people are seeing it as dictatorial
[04:06] <LaserJock> we had the little Win95 background thing in Edubuntu
[04:06] <ajmitch> of course some people will
[04:06] <LaserJock> I wonder if he just thought that the artwork was taking to long to get finalized
[04:07] <ajmitch> far far too long
[04:07] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:07] <ajmitch> UIFreeze was meant to be in april
[04:08] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: win95?
[04:08] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: chalkboard
[04:08] <jsgotangco> ahh
[04:08] <jsgotangco> i used to call it the berlin wall
[04:08] <ajmitch> distro people aren't happy about having to get artwork changes so very late
[04:08] <LaserJock> nobody in Edubuntu likes it and we even have a great replacement, but nobody at Canonical listened
[04:08] <ajmitch> release candidate is meant to be just that - an image with no forseen changes to it
[04:08] <LaserJock> that was a little disheartening
[04:11] <LaserJock> it is always a little tough when sabdfl asserst the d and doesn't seem so b ;-)
[04:18] <ajmitch> heh
[04:33] <Madpilot> hi all
[04:33] <jsgotangco> hi
[04:34] <Madpilot> anyone else on the artwork list?
[04:35] <jsgotangco> :)
[04:35] <theCore> Madpilot: me
[04:35] <LaserJock> I'm watching the show too
[04:35] <Madpilot> ...the whole mess on what artwork packages to choose... gah
[04:36] <LaserJock> ajmitch: what is the URL for that?
[04:36] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, you want to play with some css and html for Ubuntu?
[04:36] <jsgotangco> whatever happened to klepas?
[04:37] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, possibly, later this evening. What for?
[04:37] <ajmitch> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.artwork
[04:38] <LaserJock> ajmitch: k, thanks
[05:19] <robotgeek> hello doc ppl
[05:19] <jsgotangco> hi
[05:21] <robotgeek> looking to see if i can find any apt-get references/help with the wiki move
[05:25] <LaserJock> robotgeek: ?
[05:26] <robotgeek> LaserJock: cleaning up catergoryDocumentation
[05:27] <LaserJock> oh, yeah
[05:32] <LaserJock> sweet, I just got a desktop moin with 1.5.3 going. It has nice moin->docbook
[05:32] <robotgeek> isn't it just double-click and done?
[05:33] <LaserJock> not on OS X
[05:33] <robotgeek> moinX
[05:33] <LaserJock> moinX isn't 1.5
[05:34] <LaserJock> it's 1.3 I think
[05:34] <robotgeek> isn't python the same
[05:34] <robotgeek> python moin.py and you would have it running?
[05:34] <LaserJock> sort of, they  have instructions on turning it into a .app, really cool
[05:35] <LaserJock> and then I installed PyXML
[05:35] <robotgeek> i have mine running in a screen, serving stuff over on port 8080
[05:35] <LaserJock> not earth shattering for sure
[05:36] <robotgeek> i havent used os x in a long time now, i have forgotten
[05:36] <LaserJock> anyway, desktop moinway easier than mediawiki
[05:36] <robotgeek> true that
[05:36] <LaserJock> * is way
[05:37] <LaserJock> I did do it put I had to do this interesting MAMP setup
[05:38] <robotgeek> how did it run?
[05:39] <robotgeek> i hope we move over to moin 1.5 for our new wiki. it has interesting scripts, like gantt charts/progress bars
[05:39] <LaserJock> it works ok, but it wasn't as easy to set up as Moin
[05:40] <LaserJock> I don't really know anything about MySQL and then you have to load up everything just to get the wiki going
[05:41] <robotgeek> yeah, kind of painful
[05:41] <robotgeek> i am using moin for my jobsearch
[05:41] <LaserJock> seemed like overkill for me just using it for a glorified sticky note
[05:41] <robotgeek> heh
[05:41] <Madpilot> for a glorified sticky note/wiki thing, have a look at Tomboy
[05:42] <LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, but I'm not usually on Linux
[05:42] <Madpilot> ick. Poor LaserJock. ;)
[05:42] <LaserJock> I like Tomboy, but I wanted a little bit more
[05:42] <robotgeek> moin works great over internet too :)
[05:42] <LaserJock> Madpilot: yes, yes. but now at least I have a Dapper box about 5 feet away from my desk
[05:42] <LaserJock> robotgeek: exactly
[05:43] <LaserJock> I think having the GUI editor is pretty worthwile for us to have the help.u.c wiki be 1.5
[05:44] <robotgeek> that too!
[05:44] <robotgeek> though i rarely use it (prefer vim for all my editing)
[05:44] <LaserJock> yeah, but those poor forums people :-)
[05:45] <robotgeek> it definetly is useful. 
[06:36] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/audacity <-- would anyone miss this if it just got deleted?
[06:47] <Madpilot> this looks like it should be rolled into a larger page - perhaps one of Edubuntu's? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkstationDefinitions
[06:48] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, just google to make certain there are no external links
[07:27] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveryFromBadInstallCD?highlight=%284.10%29 <-- verdict? death or not?
[07:31] <Madpilot> that looks more like a bug report than a wiki page. 
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I will nuke it
[07:33] <Burgundavia> anybody with experience in digital video here?
[07:34] <Burgundavia> hmm, we no longer ship a firefox plugin
[07:38] <Burgundavia> I cannot tell you how much easier it is to document now that warty is dead
[07:39] <ajmitch> heh
[07:39] <Burgundavia> warty to hoary is probably the biggest jump in terms of changes
[07:41] <Burgundavia> I started working on Ubuntu with bang and whole lot of cash of mine upfront
[07:41] <ajmitch> heh
[07:41] <ajmitch> how so?
[07:41] <Burgundavia> I flew myself to Spain for Mataro
[07:41] <ajmitch> ah right
[07:41] <Burgundavia> that was a 2k trip
[07:41] <ajmitch> I was in .au when I got started, working in a hoary chroot on my desktop in .nz
[07:41] <Madpilot> because Burgundavia is possibly insane ;)
[07:41] <ajmitch> Madpilot: agreed
[07:42] <ajmitch> considering he went to UBZ as well..
[07:42] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, actually it was C who convinced to me to jump for it
[07:42] <Burgundavia> UBZ cost me about $60
[07:42] <ajmitch> that's not too bad
[07:42] <Madpilot> well, she's insane too, of course. ;)
[07:42] <ajmitch> UBZ cost me a little more
[07:42] <ajmitch> including a laptop, etc ;)
[07:43] <Burgundavia> ouch
[07:43] <Madpilot> ajmitch, was it you who got a bunch of stuff stolen @ UBZ? (vague memories of blog reading during UBZ...)
[07:43] <ajmitch> maybe I'll go to the conf at the end of the year, depends what I'm doing for work
[07:43] <ajmitch> Madpilot: I was one of the 3
[07:43] <Madpilot> ouch
[07:44] <ajmitch> jdub & spiv also lost laptops
[07:44] <Burgundavia> you were the first
[07:44] <ajmitch> yeah
[07:44] <ajmitch> sadly
[07:44] <Burgundavia> jdub and spiv were foolish
[07:44] <jsgotangco> lol
[07:44] <ajmitch> I got over it
[07:45] <ajmitch> I'm a bit more cautious now
[07:46] <Burgundavia> I always took my laptop to my room at lunch and never had an issue
[07:47] <jsgotangco> i always bring a backpack
[07:48] <ajmitch> any of the doc team going to paris apart from Laser_away?
[07:49] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco is going
[07:49] <ajmitch> great
[07:49] <Burgundavia> I will sadly be in New Orleans for work
[07:50] <Burgundavia> just pray for no early hurricanes
[07:51] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, practice your swimming before you go! </tasteless>
[07:51] <Burgundavia> good thing I am white </tasteless>
[07:51] <Madpilot> OK, your tastelessness trumps mine by a long, long way... :P
[07:52] <ajmitch> I'm impressed
[07:52] <jsgotangco> im expected more for edubuntu though
[07:52] <ajmitch> I didn't think you could all sink that low :)
[07:52] <Burgundavia> we are related, after all
[07:52] <Burgundavia> in fact, I think we are the only relatives working on ubuntu
[07:52] <ajmitch> nope
[07:52] <ajmitch> I've seen slomo's brother around
[07:53] <Burgundavia> what nick?
[07:53] <ajmitch> on launchpad, can't remember what irc nick
[07:53] <ajmitch> so I don't know if he's doing much work or just a user
[07:54] <ajmitch> christian-d on LP
[07:54] <ajmitch> Hirion on irc
[07:57] <ajmitch> ok, time for beer..
[07:58] <Burgundavia> we should get karma for wiki edits and svn commits
[07:59] <jsgotangco> true
[07:59] <Burgundavia> otherwise I am never going to catch robitaille :)
[08:00] <Madpilot> this looks like another lost bug report instead of a wiki page - kill it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDateBug
[08:01] <Burgundavia> the bug it references has not been closed yet
[08:02] <Madpilot> ah, OK. I'll leave it
[08:03] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  it's not by dumping 65 bugs emails on me to submit that will help decrease my karma :)
[08:03] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, oh, in random other news, the Pico de Gallo are nice and spicy
[08:03] <Burgundavia> robitaille, I hate bugs. It gives me nasty flashbacks to Microserve
[08:04] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, good. (that sounded like it should be a code word for something terribly profound, actually... keep it up and you'll have the NSA getting nervous...)  ;)
[08:05] <Burgundavia> heh
[08:25] <Madpilot> night all
[08:48] <Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode
[08:48] <Burgundavia> take a peak a number one
[08:48] <Burgundavia> sweet!
[08:49] <Burgundavia> take a peek at number one, I should say
[08:49] <jsgotangco> nice that's mikko
[08:50] <Burgundavia> not that #3 will now be the 3rd backup tool financed by google via soc
[08:51] <jsgotangco> n-m dialup is neat
[08:51] <Burgundavia> I was just about to comment on that
[08:51] <Burgundavia> hopefully someone also got NM static
[08:52] <Burgundavia> Inkscape got a PDF export one
[08:53] <Burgundavia> soc info is coming out right now
[08:54] <jsgotangco> coolll
[08:56] <rob> thats good news
[08:57] <Burgundavia> hopefully Amaranth got in
[08:58] <jsgotangco> where would it be located?
[08:58] <rob> I looked at the moin -> docbook converter but its much better being done by the person familiar[H[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B	[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[D[D[3~f[D with the code
[08:58] <rob> eek, what happen there?
[08:58] <Burgundavia> uhh, what was taht?
[08:58] <rob> no idea
[09:05] <Burgundavia> robitaille, incoming!
[09:06] <robitaille> just when I was happy to be down to 40 left :)
[09:07] <Burgundavia> just another 6
[09:08] <Burgundavia> oh wait, there are a few more
[09:18] <Burgundavia> well, students just got told
[09:20] <ajmitch> yep
[09:20] <ajmitch> sudden traffic spike in channe;
[09:21] <Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors <-- hmm, good idea
[09:21] <Burgundavia> nothing public yet, that I can find at least
[09:21] <ajmitch> not yet, we'll see soon
[09:22] <Burgundavia> chris says it might take a few days to get the websites up
[09:22] <ajmitch> there's no big rush
[09:27] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: I can say that my proposal was accepted, anyway
[09:29] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, cool. What was it?
[09:30] <ajmitch> wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication
[09:30] <ajmitch> though I've got to update the spec for the server-side as well
[09:31] <Burgundavia> very cool
[09:32] <Burgundavia> oops
[09:32] <Burgundavia> you may not be accepted after all
[09:32] <Burgundavia> they sent the accepted mail to everybody
[09:32] <ajmitch> hah
[09:32] <ajmitch> it's listed as accepted on my page
[09:32] <Burgundavia> should have enlisted mdke, he now knows everything about spamming :)
[09:32] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:32] <ajmitch> I saw that first
[09:33] <ajmitch> poor students 
[09:33] <ajmitch> building up their hopes, only to be dashed against a rock...
[09:33] <Burgundavia> that is the worst
[09:34] <Burgundavia> hmm, website is correct
[09:51] <gavcos> Hello, I was wondering if someone could help me. I edited a page on the Ubuntu wiki, but can't remember which one!
[10:00] <Burgundavia> or not
[10:01] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:01] <ajmitch> heh
[10:01] <ajmitch> well, mjg59 made it into SoC as a student for GNOME
[10:02] <ajmitch> funny that
[10:02] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:02] <Burgundavia> doing what?
[10:02] <ajmitch> bluetooth magic
[10:02] <jsgotangco> wooooooooooooooooooo
[10:02] <ajmitch> he's probably got enough laptops with bluetooth support by now
[10:02] <jsgotangco> hmm no rsync result..do we have RC?
[10:02] <Burgundavia> I didn't realize that mjg59 had worked on dasher bf
[10:02] <jsgotangco> he did
[10:08] <jsgotangco> the gnome-bluetooth list is actually active lately and bastien did some proposals that were wicked
[10:08] <Burgundavia> very cool
[10:09] <Burgundavia> I have little use for bluetooth, so I know next to nothing about it
[10:10] <jsgotangco> i really liked the way mjg59 did bluetooth for toshiba sets, turning it on with the wlan shortcut key 
[10:11] <Burgundavia> sweet ekiga/iax2 got accepted
[10:11] <Burgundavia> http://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2006
[10:12] <Burgundavia> hmm, two nautilus performance projects and two telepathy ones
[10:13] <mdke> does anyone else think that StartersGuide on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation in the "After you've installed Ubuntu" section doesn't actually add anything that isn't already on the page?
[10:13] <mdke> morning btw
[10:14] <Burgundavia> morning
[10:14] <Burgundavia> ugh, startersguide
[10:14] <Burgundavia> that is a rebranded effort by nun a long time ago
[10:15] <Burgundavia> it can die
[10:15] <mdke> Burgundavia: hang on though
[10:15] <mdke> someone has been working on it
[10:15] <Burgundavia> that page was created by them
[10:15] <mdke> we need to explain why it doesn't add anything that isn't on UserDoc already
[10:15] <Burgundavia> hmm, I will think of something, but I need to sleep
[10:15] <mdke> good night
[10:16] <jsgotangco> good idea
[02:29] <aquarius_work> Is there an installation manual for dapper (even if unreleased) anywhere accessible?
[02:29] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:29] <jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/
[02:30] <aquarius_work> ah, darn; you still need a Linux box to prepare a USB stick for installation of dapper.
[06:24] <jsgotangco> goodnight
[07:14] <mdke> more opinions about the tabs please
[07:15] <mgalvin> DapperRC is all set in case anyone has time to review/proof it (its not to long, this is all i have time for ATM)
[07:15] <mgalvin> trappist: ^^^
[07:17] <trappist> what's DapperRC?  and where?
[07:19] <mgalvin> wiki
[07:20] <mgalvin> trappist: like the flight tours
[07:20] <trappist> ah!.  gotcha.
[07:20] <mgalvin> :)
[07:57] <mdke> evening
[08:00] <Burgwork> salut mdke 
[08:04] <mdke> hiya corey
[08:05] <Burgwork> highvoltage and ogra were rumbling about us not using bzr
[08:05] <mdke> rumbling eh?
[08:05] <Burgwork> I won't say grumbling, because it wasn't
[08:06] <mdke> :)
[08:06] <Burgwork> rumbling, like two old, tired rocks talking about the wind and water
[08:07] <mdke> haha
[08:11] <mdke> man sounder is low quality nowadays
[08:11] <trappist> yeah I've noticed that too
[08:12] <mdke> so much dross
[08:12] <mdke> and people get drawn into the trollage too
[08:12] <trappist> I pretty much quit reading it, but I haven't unsubscribed (yet)
[08:13] <mdke> Laser_away: does your printed copy of the packaging guide have any problems with cross references page numbers and white spaces afterwards?
[08:14] <Laser_away> mdke: kinda depends on wat you mean by white space
[08:14] <trappist> mgalvin: I proofread DapperRC.  thanks for hilighting me on it :)
[08:15] <Laser_away> I see at least one place where the ]  sort of overwrites a .
[08:15] <mgalvin> trappist: thanks, np :)
[08:15] <mdke> Laser_away: that's all I need to know. How bad is it?
[08:15] <Burgwork> hmm
[08:17] <mdke> Laser_away: iz fop bug. I can't get it fixed before release
[08:18] <mdke> it's quite prominent in the desktop guide
[08:19] <Laser_away> mdke: well it's about half-and-half between ones that are OK and ones that are tight. There is really only 1 or maybe 2 that actually overwrite the next character
[08:20] <mdke> Laser_away: so we can get away with it, I suppose
[08:20] <mdke> in the meantime I'll report the bug and if they fix it we can update the lulu stuff
[08:23] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I mean it would be great to fix but it isn't earth shattering for the most part. At least for the packaging guide
[08:23] <mdke> ok
[08:45] <LaserJock> mdke: how well advertised is the wiki move?
[08:46] <mdke> LaserJock: so so at the moment. I sent an email about it yesterday to most major mailing lists
[08:46] <mdke> well, sounder, -users, -devel, -do
[08:46] <mdke> c*
[08:46] <mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/ <-- new purty 5.10 docs
[08:46] <LaserJock> mdke: ok, well #edubuntu was under the impression that it was a closed wiki
[08:47] <mdke> LaserJock: the channel as a whole, or a specific individual?
[08:47] <LaserJock> i.e. changes done via svn repo
[08:47] <LaserJock> mdke: well, ogra and cbx33 which translates to mostly the channel as a whole :-)
[08:48] <mdke> feel free to correct that impression
[08:48] <mdke> they didn't read my email
[08:48] <mdke> "Community based work on this documentation will continue there."
[08:48] <LaserJock> I tried to do my best. I still don't quite understand all of the details
[08:49] <mdke> it's pretty simple. The wiki is moving, that's all that will change.
[08:49] <mdke> then qualify that by saying that only the wiki team will be able to delete or rename pages
[08:49] <LaserJock> but they wondered why the (edu)(k)ubuntu wikis were merged if we were just going to split them
[08:49] <LaserJock> and they say that it will be really confusing to users
[08:49] <mdke> meh. Tell them to read the spec
[08:50] <LaserJock>  but I said that the point was to have 1 url for help, help.ubuntu.com
[08:50] <mdke> I don't see how having documentation in one place which actually has a name related to documentation is going to confuse users
[08:50] <LaserJock> and to seperate user docs from development and specs
[08:50] <mdke> if anything, having documentation on a place called a "wiki" with loads of development and community noise is confusing
[08:51] <LaserJock> I think I helped, I hope so
[08:52] <Burgwork> given there is basically no kubuntu stuff on the wiki
[08:52] <LaserJock> but ogra didn't want any edubuntu docs going over because he thought that it was only for finished (i.e. only doc team can touch) docs
[08:52] <LaserJock> I think I explained things ok. I hope so anyway
[08:52] <mdke> LaserJock: well, you should correct him, and ask him to read things properly before flying off the handle. Anyway, we discussed this with highvoltage quite carefully so things should be clear
[08:52] <LaserJock> I always feel so incompetent with these things
[08:53] <highvoltage> mdke: who flew off the handle? me?
[08:53] <LaserJock> mdke: I think I explained ok, I think they get it now
[08:54] <highvoltage> ah, caught up. ok
[08:54] <mdke> highvoltage: no, no
[08:54] <mdke> LaserJock: thanks
[08:55] <LaserJock> mdke: I just wanted to verify that what I said was right
[08:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: i think it will make more sense once the doc page is up, i don't think it's that big a deal, really
[08:56] <LaserJock> highvoltage: my only concern was that ogra said he didn't want any docs going there, that and he had a fairly significant misconception of what was being done
[08:56] <LaserJock> I'm all good, I just want to make sure everybody is on the same page :-)
[08:57] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ogra's concern is mostly that our docs will go somewhere where it's hard to edit, but yes, i agree that it's important to have everyone on the same page :)
[08:57] <Burgwork> mdke, you are going to paris, no?
[08:58] <mdke> at the moment no edubuntu related pages are in the move, because nothing in tagged with CategoryDocumentation, afaics
[08:58] <Burgwork> mdke, they just moved all their tags to EdubuntuDocumentation
[08:58] <mdke> except for HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/StandAloneIntro
[08:58] <mdke> Burgwork: no, unlikely to be going to paris
[08:59] <LaserJock> mdke: that's because ogra said to remove them 
[08:59] <mdke> ffs
[08:59] <mdke> he could simply have asked me or posted to the -doc list
[08:59] <LaserJock> mdke: there wouldn't be much anyway, it really isn't a big deal
[08:59] <LaserJock> mdke: we can manuall move later?
[09:00] <mdke> LaserJock: yes, but you'll lose the page history
[09:01] <LaserJock> true
[09:02] <LaserJock> highvoltage: do you think the LTSP stuff is worth moving?
[09:02] <LaserJock> I think that was the main thing
[09:03] <mdke> don't forget that none of the links will break
[09:03] <highvoltage> LaserJock: not really, since it's applicable to ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu too
[09:03] <highvoltage> mdke: i forgot that a bit earlier ;)
[09:04] <mdke> highvoltage: the question is whether it is documentation or not, not whether it's applicable to other derivatives. If it's documentation, i think it should move, if not, it should stay
[09:04] <highvoltage> mdke: i suppose it's documentation then
[09:05] <mdke> you don't think it should move?
[09:07] <LaserJock> mdke: I'm thinking that Edubuntu is worried about breaking up their pages, their stuff seems to be smaller and better organized than the wiki in general
[09:07] <mdke> these are the sorts of questions I'd hoped people will think about these things
[09:07] <mdke> LaserJock: well, that's why I sent the email. They can think about it.
[09:18] <mdke> what do people think about the presence/absence of "LTS" in the 6.06 tab?
[09:19] <LaserJock> well, we can't change that
[09:19] <Burgwork> nope
[09:19] <mdke> me too, but it's a question of whether it is part of the version number or not
[09:20] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~$ cat /etc/lsb-release
[09:20] <mdke> DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu
[09:20] <mdke> DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.06
[09:20] <mdke> DISTRIB_CODENAME=dapper
[09:20] <mdke> DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 6.06 LTS"
[09:20] <LaserJock> I'd say no, but you might want a more authoritative voice than me
[09:21] <crimsun> according to DISTRIB_RELEASE it's not part of the version number
[09:21] <LaserJock> yep
[09:21] <mdke> yeah
[09:21] <Burgwork> that is due to a mistake
[09:22] <mdke> let's ask in -devel
[09:22] <Burgwork> apparently a lot of code depends on _RELEASE being 6.06
[09:22] <mdke> ah
[09:22] <Burgwork> they talked about changing it yesterday in #ubuntu-devel
[09:23] <jeffsch> i'm running the server iso from may 22
[09:23] <jeffsch> DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.06LTS
[09:23] <LaserJock> ugg
[09:23] <LaserJock> why would they have 6.06LTS when there is no 6.06 ?
[09:25] <jeffsch> must be a marketing thing
[09:25] <Burgwork> http://www.ernestdelgado.com/wiki/index.php/Drupal
[09:25] <mdke> well, they seem ok with removing it in -devel
[09:26] <crimsun> jeffsch: that was changed for parsing reasons, you need to update
[09:27] <LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm, interesting
[09:28] <mdke> ok, mdz wants the LTS
[09:28] <robotgeek> http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/ is very interesting 
[09:28] <mdke> 20:27:21 < mdz> especially when listing a sequence of versions, since then it's clear which are long-term releases
[09:29] <LaserJock> mdke: I guess, although I still don't see why anybody would care about LTS other than businesses
[09:29] <robotgeek> LaserJock: then again, we dont want to explain that both are the same
[09:30] <LaserJock> what are the same?
[09:30] <LaserJock> oh, I see, nvm
[09:31] <jeffsch> yeah, but do we have to have LTS in the tab on help.ubuntu.com?
[09:33] <LaserJock> mdz says yes, I guess
[09:34] <jeffsch> it's really no big deal, either way
[09:34] <jeffsch> it's just that little bit more consistent... :)
[09:40] <mgalvin> and i bothered to write an email :-/
[09:53] <mdke> we're going with mdz?
[09:55] <jeffsch> i suppose 6.06 would look weird if people are accustomed to 6.06 LTS everywhere else
[09:56] <LaserJock> I think for consistency it probably would be better to add the LTS
[09:56] <LaserJock> even though I still wonder if there will be another LTS or not
[09:56] <jeffsch> but then 6.06 LTS looks weird when compared to the other tabs
[09:57] <jeffsch> if forced to choose though, i would say 6.06 LTS
[09:57] <crimsun> think of it this way: /etc/issue contains the "LTS" string, so that's a strong vote for consistency
[09:58] <mdke> yes, I think consistency is the strongest consideration
[10:01] <mgalvin> LaserJock: there will be another LTS in 2 years iirc
[10:02] <mgalvin> *i think* i heard that at one point (don't take my word on that though)
[10:02] <LaserJock> mgalvin: well, a lot can change in 2 years and I was told that they are to be released whenever the start align and it "feels" right ;-)
[10:03] <mdke> yes
[10:03] <mgalvin> :)
[10:03] <mdke> we can always change things later
[10:03] <Burgwork> the key thing about the web is that it can be changed later
[10:05] <LaserJock> very true
[10:06] <jeffsch> haha. there's a joke in there somewhere...
[10:06] <jeffsch> "I'll do it tomorrow..."
[10:12] <mgalvin> haha :)
[10:50] <Burgwork> see the stunning news on planet ubuntu
[10:51] <mdke> wow, that sounds very good
[10:53] <mdke> Burgwork: ah, just a commission proposal, gotta get it past the heavies first
[10:53] <Burgwork> it has to pass parliament, which is not hard, given how they voted last time
[10:54] <mdke> right, parliament isn't hard
[10:54] <mdke> but the council might be
[10:54] <Burgwork> European gov't stikes me as terribly non-democratic
[10:55] <mdke> it's quite a strange system.
[10:55] <mdke> whether it is democratic or not is a classic essay question for EC law exams ;)
[10:57] <Burgwork> right, law, thought about doing that once. Then I stabbed myself in the eye a few times to get over it :)
[10:58] <LaserJock> Ubucon!
[10:58] <mdke> mmmm law
[10:58] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I wish I could go
[10:59] <LaserJock> I'm about 4-5hrs drive and my wife's aunt lives there
[10:59] <mdke> nice
[11:02] <Burgwork> hmm, I might come
[11:03] <Burgwork> it would only be about $600 to come
[11:03] <Burgwork> 18th is also my birthday
[11:05] <LaserJock> cool
[11:05] <Burgwork> $285 for a plane and about $100 for a ferry to seattle, plus two nights
[11:07] <LaserJock> a lot cheaper than Paris
[11:07] <Burgwork> yep and doesn't conflict with anything
[11:12] <theCore> ubucon?
[11:13] <Burgwork> two day Ubuntu con at Google in Aug.
[11:14] <theCore> who is going there?
[11:14] <Burgwork> LaserJock is and I am thinking about it
[11:14] <mdke> what's it about?
[11:15] <crimsun> . o O { dang, how does jordan find the cash for these trips? }
[11:15] <Burgwork> Ubuntu people drinking on Google's tab
[11:15] <Burgwork> crimsun, he is being funded to Paris
[11:15] <crimsun> (right)
[11:15] <Burgwork> and MOuntain view is 4/5 hours away
[11:15] <LaserJock> crimsun: dude, I just found out about it, but I drive over to the bay area a far bit
[11:16] <LaserJock> crimsun: and my wife has an aunt living there, so it would be like the cost of the gas to drive over there
[11:16] <theCore> what's going at Paris?
[11:16] <LaserJock> theCore: the Ubuntu Developer Summit for edgy
[11:16] <mdke> ok, my todo list is now nearly finished. Now to build & upload the 6.06 website
[11:17] <theCore> LaserJock: oh, nice
[11:17] <LaserJock> crimsun: trust me, I have no cash
[11:17] <theCore> Ah la France!
[11:18] <theCore> I wonder how much a trip there cost
[11:18] <crimsun> LaserJock: don't worry, I'm simply jealous of your freedom to travel :-)
[11:18] <mdke> can I export from my own local svn tree?
[11:19] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, sort of, too many of these and my wife is going to start having problems. but the Ubucon thing is about the time of our anniversary so maybe I can throw in an extra day to sweeten the deal :-)
[11:20] <mdke> rock, you can
[11:20] <mdke> gotta love svn
[11:25] <LaserJock> mdke: I'm going to send a list of possible Ubucon topics to their list. Anything you think is important? I've never been to one of these things
[11:25] <mdke> I've never heard of it
[11:26] <LaserJock> it just started this week so ...
[11:26] <theCore> who's working on the server guide?
[11:26] <Burgwork> LaserJock, how to get laid while working on Ubuntu? :0
[11:26] <Burgwork> :)
[11:26] <mdke> theCore: bhuvan, trappist, me
[11:26] <LaserJock> Burgwork: you might have to handle that one, mine would be short, and boring :-)
[11:26] <theCore> okay, I got CVS stuff that I written
[11:26] <Burgwork> LaserJock, are you not married?
[11:27] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, but that doesn't mean anything ;-)
[11:27] <Burgwork> right
[11:27] <Burgwork> I am sadly single
[11:27] <crimsun> Burgwork: not to stray too far off-topic, but it's not a matter of that, it's a matter of finding alternatives. :-)
[11:27] <Burgwork> sorry to be crude, but the hand is not enough
[11:28] <crimsun> err, no, I'm referring to more pressing things such as bugfixing. :-)
[11:28] <Burgwork> I never did say what I would do with that hand
[11:28] <mdke> nicely done
[11:28] <crimsun> hand? pssht, I use my feet for typing
[11:29] <mdke> the flair bug fixers use their feet for triaging bugs on one machine, and hands for fixing them on another
[11:29] <LaserJock> oh my
[11:30] <LaserJock> anyway, I was sort of wondering if there might be a good doc team topic for conferences
[11:30] <theCore> crimsun: what? you got prehensile toes, wha ;)
[11:31] <crimsun> LaserJock: there's always history, current practice, challenges in said practices, and future work
[11:31] <mdke> how to contribute!
[11:31] <crimsun> definitely that, which is ultimately most important
[11:32] <LaserJock> I'm not sure of what they want but this is my list currently:
[11:32] <LaserJock> * Ubuntu Governance and Community involvment
[11:32] <LaserJock> * What is the MOTU and how can I help
[11:32] <LaserJock> * Bug reporting 101
[11:32] <LaserJock> * Contributions Make Ubuntu Happen: how to make a difference
[11:32] <mdke> sounds good
[11:33] <LaserJock> k
[11:34] <crimsun> I would see it as two big things: 1) What sets Ubuntu apart from $distro? 2) How $you are part of Ubuntu
[11:35] <crimsun> possibly emphasizing the "my humanity is inextricably linked to yours"-participation is the tie
[11:35] <Burgwork> crimsun, how very matrix-y of you
[11:35] <crimsun> eh, I teach, this stuff is second nature
[11:37] <mdke> there is no Ubuntu
[11:37] <mdke> spoon, I mean spoon
[11:42] <theCore> mdke: could take a look to my patch?
[11:43] <theCore> could you*
[11:43] <mdke> theCore: we've frozen the docs for dapper. What's it about?
[11:43] <theCore> mdke: it isn't version dependent
[11:43] <mdke> theCore: what isn't?
[11:44] <theCore> mdke: mostly about Apache
[11:44] <mdke> theCore: can you explain in a bit more detail?
[11:47] <theCore> I made a section called "Convenient Settings" for Apache. It tell how to add yourself into the www-data group so you can modify the files in /var/www
[11:47] <mdke> iirc our section on apache advises to use virtual hosts, rather than using /var/www, right?
[11:48] <theCore> let me check
[11:51] <mdke> i hope so anyway
[11:51] <theCore> it does, be it's kinda unclear 
[11:53] <mdke> yeah, the paragraphs are far too large and there are not enough easy steps
[11:54] <mdke> theCore: the thing about accepting patches now is that really we haven't set out what we want to achieve for edgy, it's difficult to work before that discussion takes place
[11:55] <theCore> so everyone is holding for Edgy?
[11:55] <mdke> yeah, basically
[12:01] <theCore> what could I do then? Should I continue to procrastinate?
[12:02] <Burgwork> theCore, yep, I like that plan
[12:02] <mdke> theCore: something that would be useful would be to collect together some ideas about the server guide. If we are going to continue it for edgy, it needs lots of structural work, I think
[12:03] <LaserJock> theCore: and you can also put items you want in the packaging guide on w.u.c./UbuntuPackagingGuide ;-)
[12:03] <theCore> mdke: is there a wiki page for that?
[12:04] <mdke> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide 
[12:04] <theCore> LaserJock: what to get more MOTU experience before. Hey, wait that a good plan
[12:04] <mdke> it might need some reworking
[12:04] <theCore> I want *
[12:13] <theCore> "Server Guide does not mean Admin Guide", What does that mean?
[12:13] <mdke> it means it is not a guide for system administration, it is a guide for setting up servers
[12:14] <mdke> often the two are the same, not always
[12:15] <LaserJock> mdke: do you foresee much reworking of the DGs?
[12:15] <mdke> that page is really out of date tho
[12:15] <mdke> LaserJock: i hope not. Maybe adding things, printing, modems, wireless, some stuff from the book maybe
[12:16] <mdke> but I hope the existing stuff will stay as much the same as possible, it will make life easier on the translators
[12:16] <theCore> mdke, any examples of something that would be offtopic for the Server Guide?
[12:16] <WaterSevenUb> mdke, make our life easy please ;-)
[12:18] <LaserJock> hmm, and I thought our job was to give the translators' lives miserable ;-)
[12:18] <WaterSevenUb> :)
[12:18] <mdke> theCore: erm. dunno. anything involving configuring the system which isn't server related
[12:19] <LaserJock> theCore: probably also administration rather than setup, is that right mdke?
[12:19] <mdke> guess so
[12:20] <theCore> so what an Admin Guide would looks like?
[12:20] <mdke> it would be about how to administer your computer
[12:20] <mdke> but we don't do one
[12:22] <theCore> mdke: find your description a little bit recursive ;)
[12:22] <LaserJock> theCore: just write some stuff and put it on the ML/wiki
[12:22] <mdke> theCore: I don't know what you mean
[12:23] <theCore> wouldn't be a good idea integrate an Admin Section into the SG and the DG
[12:23] <mdke> you mean it would, or it wouldn't?
[12:24] <theCore> it would
[12:24] <mdke> there are some such sections already
[12:25] <mdke> for example, how to install applications (in both), configuring the system (in desktop guide), etc
[12:25] <mdke> where appropriate, they are there
[12:26] <theCore> is it okay if I remove `Server Guide does not mean Admin Guide'
[12:26] <theCore> from the Wiki page?
[12:27] <mdke> why?
[12:28] <mdke> maybe it's not necessary any more... but it's quite important that the server guide is a _server_ guide
[12:28] <mdke> (i think)
[12:30] <theCore> that what it is, I think you need to administrate your server in a way or another
[12:30] <mdke> yes, but there are a lot of other things that fall into the category of "administration" and have nothing to do with a server, as we've described
[12:31] <theCore> mdke: why someone would put something about desktop admin. into the Server guide?
[12:32] <mdke> theCore: they wouldn't, but they might put something in there about general admin.
[12:33] <mdke> sometimes that will be appropriate, I suppose
[12:33] <mdke> other times it might not, dunno
[12:33] <theCore> basically building a server is a SysAdmin task
[12:34] <mdke> theCore: the server guide is not intended to be "how to build a server", it is more "how to run services, on any computer, including a desktop"
[12:34] <mdke> so you can install apache on a server
[12:34] <mdke> or run samba
[12:35] <mdke> but you can do it on a desktop too
[12:35] <mdke> anyway, these are things we can think about and talk about
[12:35] <theCore> ah, that a better definition
[12:35] <mdke> but not now
[01:01] <mdke> ok, 6.06 section of the website is updated too
[01:03] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[06:59] <Burgundavia> ok, RestrictedFormats is now translated into new installation method
[07:35] <Madpilot> so Matt East got custarded on IRC, did he? ;)
[07:36] <crimsun> eh?
[07:36] <Burgundavia> salut highvoltage, Madpilot 
[07:36] <Madpilot> are you on the sounder ML, crimsun?
[07:36] <highvoltage> salut, Burgundavia!
[07:36] <Madpilot> hi Burg
[07:37] <crimsun> Madpilot: no, I'm already drowning in ML hell.
[07:38] <Madpilot> crimsun, ah, OK. There was/is a thread there about DMA; someone said that anyone saying that DMA wasn't enabled on SATA drives would get covered in custard, so Matt announced that his SATA drives didn't have DMA
[07:38] <Madpilot> ;)
[07:39] <Burgundavia> it is a bug in hdparm, not reporting dma on sata drives
[07:39] <Madpilot> yes, but mostly just a silly moment on sounder
[07:55] <Madpilot> ...where has "Michael T. Richter" come from, and has he always been this abrasive on sounder?
[07:56] <crimsun> "He has always been very outspoken."
[07:56] <Burgundavia> there are a few like him on sounder
[07:56] <Burgundavia> that guy scott (not Keybuk) is just as bad
[07:56] <crimsun> Something we could learn to be is a bit more gracious.
[07:56] <crimsun> *we in general terms
[07:57] <Madpilot> OK, "outspoken", not "abrasive" - but still...
[07:58] <crimsun> oh no, I agree he's abrasive
[07:58] <crimsun> I just go into euphemistic mode often (probably due to my profession)
[07:59] <Madpilot> this is another DMA thread on sounder - the actual devs are saying "File bugs so it 'just works' and we don't need a GUI" and several others are going on at length about GUI design... 
[07:59] <Madpilot> it would be more amusing if it weren't apparently a total waste of everyone's time
[08:00] <Burgundavia> ah, but you have no learned the first lesson of bikeshedding!
[08:00] <Burgundavia> ignore all useful comments and keep talking about the colour
[08:00] <Madpilot> heh
[08:02] <Burgundavia> hmm, so if I can get the time off, I am going to go to Ubucon in Aug.
[08:03] <Burgundavia> probably wil only cost me about $600
[08:04] <Madpilot> that's the Paris conf?
[08:04] <Burgundavia> nope, the one in Mountain View, CA
[08:04] <Madpilot> oh, the Google one
[08:05] <Burgundavia> yep
[08:05] <Madpilot> google's new slogan: "We're only evil in China" ;)
[08:06] <Burgundavia> heh
[08:10] <poningru> hehe
[08:10] <poningru> so wait next planning conf is in paree?
[08:10] <poningru> err paris?
[08:10] <Madpilot> yes. 3rd week of June, I think
[08:10] <poningru> nice
[08:10] <poningru> what will it be called?
[08:11] <Madpilot> it doesn't appear to have been given a snappy name yet
[08:11] <poningru> like ubz and udu for the last two
[08:11] <poningru> hmm ic
[08:11] <dsas> Has UFK not been endorsed?
[08:11] <Madpilot> UIP - Ubuntu In Paris? UCL - Ubuntu in the City of Light (or that last one one French)
[08:12] <poningru> dsas: what does that stand for?
[08:12] <dsas> Ubuntu French Kiss
[08:12] <poningru> bwhahahaha
[08:13] <poningru> ubuntu french connection?
[08:13] <poningru> orr just the French Connection
[08:13] <poningru> or the Floss connection?
[08:17] <Madpilot> the Free (as in Freedom) French? (vive la resistance, etc) ;)
[08:19] <poningru> hehe true
[08:32] <Madpilot> need sleep - up stupidly early tomorrow morning. Later, all.
[08:32] <Burgundavia> cya
[09:15] <mdke> morning
[09:18] <jsgotangco> hi
[09:24] <Burgundavia> morning mdke 
[09:26] <mdke> I can't believe there is such a long discussion over something that clearly works very well out of the box on dapper
[09:31] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:31] <jsgotangco> people are just opinionated
[09:32] <Burgundavia> no, the bikeshed must be blue!
[09:33] <mdke> Michael Richter is a pain in the neck
[09:34] <mdke> so rude
[09:55] <Burgundavia> night
[12:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> what does the docteam use to make po files of its docbook? i have been told poxml is good, but i thought i would ask
[12:23] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: xml2po
[12:23] <mdke> from gnome-doc-utils
[12:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks
[01:55] <jbailey> Hi!  For the ReleaseNotes last year, various folks just added to them and edit them.
[01:55] <jbailey> I notice this year that they're being maintained by the docteam.
[01:55] <jbailey> What's the best way to submit something that should go in them?
[01:57] <jbailey> Oh hey, mailing list.
[01:58] <jbailey> Right, forgot about that. =)
[01:59] <jsgotangco> hey
[02:02] <jbailey> Heya Jerome.
[02:03] <ajmitch> hello jeff, jerome
[02:03] <jbailey> Hi Andrew
[02:24] <mdke> jbailey: I think they are being developed on the wiki at DapperReleaseNotes or some such page
[02:25] <mdke> jbailey: you can just add to that page, I believe
[02:27] <jbailey> Okay, cool.
[02:28] <jbailey> I have some notes on making the Pegasos boot correctly.
[05:16] <jjesse> argh.... why do some developers think the documentation is never good enough
[05:17] <mdke> who's that?
[05:17] <jjesse> mornfall on #kubuntu-devel
[05:18] <jsgotangco> tell him to get involved then
[05:18] <jjesse> [11:18]  mornfall: Riddell: they would rule more if they had more time for it (eg. being part-time paid by canonical for the work)
[05:18] <jjesse> i did
[05:18] <jjesse> [11:20]  mornfall: i definitely think that the doc team is undermanned
[05:18] <jjesse> [11:20]  bddebian: mornfall: Great idea.  So why don't you get out there and recruit some for us? :-)
[05:18] <mdke> never heard of him
[05:19] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:19] <jjesse> he's the a$$ that wrote adept, i have a very very hard time working w/ him on anything
adept isn't even user friendly </troll>
[05:19] <mdke> how come he talks about the doc team in such a knowledgeable way when we haven't heard of him?
[05:19] <jsgotangco> oh i do
[05:20] <jsgotangco> its just a kde world thing
[05:20] <mdke> i mean, the doc team has never heard of him
[05:20] <jsgotangco> heh i'll just brush it off
[05:20] <jjesse> cause he views that his ideas are the only right ideas and if he didn't think of it then its not right
[05:20] <mdke> tell him to join this channel and get involved
[05:21] <jjesse> already did but he's too busy
[05:22] <jsgotangco> :D
[05:22] <mdke> sounds like a whinger
[05:23] <jjesse> a whinner? yes
[05:26] <jsgotangco> jjesse: are you still going to paris or its not possible?
[05:29] <jjesse> jsgotangco: i can't i start a new job on this coming tuesday and cant get any time off that soon :(
[05:29] <jjesse> even after i got sponsorship :(
[05:30] <jjesse> yeah i know
[05:30] <jjesse> its ironic or sad that as soon as i accepted this new job i had four interview opportunities plus the time in paris
[05:30] <jjesse> and before i took the job nothing
[06:27] <Lathiat> when doe sthe 6.06 docs close?
[06:28] <mdke> Lathiat: 6 April
[06:28] <Lathiat> ah
[06:28] <Lathiat> shame
[06:28] <Lathiat> that for translations and stuff or?
[06:28] <mdke> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule)
[06:29] <mdke> Lathiat: translation started after that yeah
[06:29] <Lathiat> ah
[06:29] <mdke> and stopped last week
[06:29] <Lathiat> well i'll i work on what i want for edgy then :)
[06:29] <mdke> got some ideas?
[06:29] <Lathiat> mdke: yeh some of the server docs could do with some improvement in particular
[06:29] <mdke> very much so
[06:30] <Lathiat> flesh some areas out more, and a few things i think are a bit silly defautl recommendations and that sort of thing
[06:30] <Lathiat> (e.g. having a default line that exports nfs to *)
[06:30] <mdke> Lathiat: the server guide needs a lot of love, we'd appreciate your help
[06:30] <Lathiat> mdke: i was reading it today (i somehow stumbled accross a link) and figured it could do with some love so might get stuck into it
[06:30] <Lathiat> i didnt evcen realise such nie docs existed :)
[06:31] <Lathiat> and i cant type today
[06:31] <mdke> heh
[06:31] <mdke> look forward to you helping out, definitely
[06:31] <mdke> the serverguide also needs lots of style love, as well as technical love
[06:32] <Lathiat> do you need better docbook knowledge to fix the style?
[06:33] <mdke> Lathiat: not really. i meant that the information can be better presented in general. Smaller paragraphs, step-by-step procedures, less detail where it isn't needed
[06:33] <Lathiat> ah ok
[06:33] <mdke> but docbook is really easy to learn anyhow
[06:33] <Lathiat> i've only done some really basic docbook before but im sure i'll pick it up :)
[06:34] <mdke> yeah, I reckon you will
[06:44] <Lathiat> well, night, look forward to helping out. :)
[06:45] <mdke> cya :)
[06:45] <jsgotangco> \o/ Lathiat \o/
[06:48] <Burgwork> does anybody have logs for #ubuntu for yesterday?
[06:48] <jsgotangco> err fabbione's bot?
[06:49] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:50] <crimsun> should be in people/~fabbione/irclogs/,  yes
[06:50] <Burgwork> no logs from yesterday in #ubuntu-devel
[06:52] <crimsun> probably a bot hiccup
[06:52] <crimsun> 21-23 are missing
[06:52] <Burgwork> yep, the very days  I need
[06:52] <crimsun> well, 0-byte, rather
[11:02] <mdke> xubuntu love
[11:02] <mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/
[11:06] <Burgwork> mdke, it  appears I broke the edubuntu links on doc.u.c
[11:07] <mdke> Burgwork: heh
[11:08] <mdke> I'll look now
[11:08] <mdke> --- Complete. Find outputs at ../build/edubuntu/school-advocacy/
[11:08] <mdke> Burgwork: ^
[11:09] <Burgwork> mdke, I don't understand
[11:10] <mdke> you have to compare the urls
[11:10] <mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/SchoolAdvocacy/C/school-advocacy.html
[11:10] <mdke> ../build/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/school-advocacy.html
[11:10] <Burgwork> oh, bugger
[11:13] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm not sure my dir naming was the best for that one
[11:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, the captial letters?
[11:13] <LaserJock> I just went with the convention that edubuntu/ used
[11:14] <mdke> WIKINAMES IN SVN!
[11:14] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:17] <LaserJock> what?!
[11:17] <LaserJock> impossible
[11:17] <Burgwork> mdke, really, can I give you a few?
[11:17] <mdke> Burgwork: yeah
[11:18] <mdke> i have one
[11:18] <mdke> styling for edubuntu docs
[11:18] <LaserJock> I need to get mdke packaging so I can have him fix MOTU Science bugs too :-)
[11:19] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, there is a lack of styling there
[11:19] <mdke> we can't have that, can we?
[11:19] <mdke> such a purty website
[11:20] <Burgwork> mdke, hmm, lets see. My room is kind of dirty and the bathroom needs cleaning. I need to buy a push mower. Come to think about, the kitchen floor needs doing as well :)
[11:20] <mdke> heh
[11:21] <Burgwork> you can just pop over tonight and do that?
[11:21] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I thought you had Madpilot around for that ;-)
[11:21] <Burgwork> LaserJock, ummm, no
[11:21] <LaserJock> Burgwork: is he messier than you?
[11:21] <Burgwork> that man does not know the meaning of "throw out"
[11:22] <LaserJock> lol
[11:22] <Burgwork> I moved him a few weeks ago
[11:23] <LaserJock> I'm dreading moving, my wife keep everything
[11:23] <mdke> it's all about not clinging
[11:24] <LaserJock> I have a garage full of empty boxes that my wife says we will use to move one day
[11:24] <mdke> clinging to the boxes?
[11:24] <mdke> that's bad
[11:24] <Burgwork> my brother makes fun of my "zen like" state when it comes to throwing stuff out
[11:24] <LaserJock> hehe
[11:25] <Burgwork> I call it decluttering
[11:28] <LaserJock> I agree
[11:28] <LaserJock> I'm fairly messy, I guess I have an anorexic cleaning style
[11:29] <LaserJock> binge and purge :-)
[11:29] <Burgwork> that is beulimic, not anorexic
[11:30] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, your right
[11:30] <Burgwork> as usual :0
[11:30] <Burgwork> :)
[11:30] <LaserJock> heh
[11:30] <LaserJock> my wife had to learn how to diagnose those as a part of her Masters
[11:30] <Burgwork> mdke, since you have nothing to do, can you fix my breakage for me?
[11:31] <mdke> yeah
[11:31] <mdke> lazy >_M
[11:32] <Burgwork> mdke, effecient and managerial
[11:32] <mdke> whatevaar
[11:33] <Burgwork> see, that wasn't so bad
[11:33] <Burgwork> :)
[11:33] <mdke> exactly the reason you should have done it yourself, lazybones
[11:36] <LaserJock> mdke: you aren't giving him much of an incentive to do it :-)
[11:37] <Burgwork> mdke, I have no way of getting svn access here at work, 'cause I don't know my home IP
[11:38] <Burgwork> LaserJock, it was very sad. I got 1000 USD transfered to my account and it only turned into 1100 CAD
[11:49] <mdke> ##help-unofficial?
[11:50] <mdke> ah, freenode thing?
[11:51] <Burgwork> mdke, heh
[11:52] <nickrud> the silence is deafening
[11:54] <nickrud> Burgwork, I was thinking of putting those packages back inside the {{{ }}} stuff, so it looks better. The guy that reorganized the kubuntu/ubuntu stuff did good work
[11:54] <Burgwork> nickrud, what did someone mess up on RF now?
[11:55] <nickrud> Burgwork, he took all those kubuntu notes and turned them into expliciit subsections 
[11:55] <Burgwork> ya, I saw that
[11:55] <Burgwork> the page is a little too long
[11:56] <nickrud> java by itself :)
[11:56] <Burgwork> I nuke the gplflash stuff
[11:56] <Burgwork> we need a gnash page
[11:56] <nickrud> gnash?
[11:56] <Burgwork> a gpl'ed flash (not gplflash)
[11:57] <nickrud> oh, I though a page for people to get their teeth exercised
[11:58] <mdke> that would work too
[11:58] <mdke> GNU-dentistry
[11:59] <nickrud> maybe just point everyone at easybuntu, easy work then :)
[12:00] <mdke> that does teeth?
[12:01] <nickrud> you all set the policy for the wiki; this page is sorta unique in that it is referenced from the help, and is critical to most users. Have you ever considered making it immutable?
[12:03] <Burgwork> nickrud, we generally don't like that idea, but it has been considered
[12:04] <nickrud> After watching for over a year I really think it should be considered an extension of the help docs, and owned by the doc team
[12:04] <mdke> which page?
[12:04] <mdke> Restricted?
[12:04] <nickrud> restricted formats
[12:04] <mdke> man that page needs a lot of love
[12:04] <mdke> it's just too big
[12:05] <nickrud> I've said that more than once
[12:05] <mdke> we should make it into a sub index
[12:07] <nickrud> I hate the blue human folders. Changed them to brown first thing
[12:08] <mdke> Burgwork: I've made a very rough start
[12:08] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/
[12:09] <mdke> it's still fairly hideous
[12:09] <mdke> but at least it smells of edubuntu
[12:09] <mdke> LaserJock: ^
[12:15] <Burgwork> mdke, cool
[12:46] <mdke> ok, that's as far as I'm going to get tonight: http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/
[12:46] <mdke> tell me what you guys think
[12:46] <LaserJock> cool
[12:50] <mdke> LaserJock: perhaps you can give some feedback and we can improve it... maybe ask other edubuntu people
[12:50] <LaserJock> mdke: will do
[12:51] <Burgwork> mdke, looks good
[12:51] <Burgwork> text colour is a little too purple
[12:51] <LaserJock> the links are a little too pink
[12:51] <LaserJock> oops
[12:51] <LaserJock> purple, pink whatever
[12:51] <Burgwork> whatever
[12:52] <mdke> i just took that colour from the website
[12:52] <LaserJock> hmm, they need to fix their website ;-)
[12:52] <mdke> actually the website is a bit pinker
[12:52] <mdke> the purple is the colour of visited links, i think
[12:52] <LaserJock> oh, your right
[12:52] <mdke> but if you give me a better colour, I'll replace it
[12:54] <LaserJock> there seems to be a bit of a TZ hole in #edubuntu :-)
[12:57] <Burgwork> wow, lets watch the Art Team bikeshed over meetings now!
[12:57] <LaserJock> mdke: < ogra> the fonts are a bit to big
[12:57] <LaserJock>  <ogra> ast least the author names could be half size
[12:57] <LaserJock> Burgwork: on the ML?
[12:57] <Burgwork> yep
[12:58] <Burgwork> speaking of meetings, we having one this friday?
[12:58] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah ok.
[12:58] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I don't see anything on fridge
[12:58] <mdke> LaserJock: it would be better if you replaced the author names by the group, that way it would look like the other docs. They are big because they are <h2>
[12:59] <LaserJock> k, just a sec
[12:59] <juan_> hi
[12:59] <Burgwork> salut juan_ 
[12:59] <juan_> salut Burgwork
[01:00] <LaserJock> mdke: how do you mean? I have <authorgroup> and then <author> for each one?
[01:00] <mdke> LaserJock: just copy about-edubuntu
[01:00] <LaserJock> k
[01:02] <LaserJock> hmm, that was a short visit
[01:02] <mdke> LaserJock: that way it will look like this (much better I think): http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/
[01:02] <mdke> ah, about-edubuntu needs a sect1 at the beginning
[01:02] <mdke> am I allowed to edit that?
[01:03] <mdke> shit, about ubuntu does too
[01:03] <LaserJock> ack, what are you talking about. now your confusing me :-)
[01:04] <mdke> ok, forget that
[01:04] <mdke> anyway, copy the format of the <articleinfo>
[01:05] <mdke> releasenotes could do with the same love too
[01:05] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/edubuntu/edubuntu-releasenotes/C/
[01:06] <LaserJock> k
[01:10] <mdke> ok, I'll upload what I have for now
[01:10] <LaserJock> k
[01:11] <LaserJock> Burgwork: did we ever figure out a license for ESA?
[01:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, nope
[01:13] <LaserJock> :/
[01:14] <Burgwork> we need something that works for print
[01:14] <LaserJock> CC-SA didn't work
[01:14] <mdke> what's the difference?
[01:14] <LaserJock> weither you have to include the full text or not
[01:15] <LaserJock> 10 pages of license for a 5 page pamphlet is a little annoying
[01:15] <mdke> you can make derivative works happily with cc-sa, surely
[01:15] <mdke> oh, right
[01:15] <mdke> I don't think you *really* need the full text of cc-by-sa... i think a link would do the trick
[01:15] <mdke> but I haven't checked
[01:16] <mgalvin> howdy folks
[01:16] <LaserJock> If I rember right from my fixing the debian/copyright files CC-SA only requires a link
[01:16] <mdke> <3 cc
[01:17] <mdke> hi mgalvin 
[01:18] <Burgwork> LaserJock, only a link in electronic form, but hwat about paper form?
[01:19] <mdke> a url would do, I'm sure
[01:19] <mdke> it ought to have a free licence, I think
[01:20] <Burgwork> yes, that is a must
[01:21] <LaserJock> I would think a url would be the same as a link, but INAL
[01:22] <mdke> o.o
[01:22] <LaserJock> hehe
[01:22] <mdke> basically what you are doing is saying "you can copy/modify/distribute this as you like, as long as you comply with the following conditions: http://url/here"
[01:23] <mdke> the fact that the conditions are a url rather than being printed in full can't make a difference, I would have thought
[01:23] <Burgwork> mdke, yes, because a one page pamphlet is not really ideal to put a huge license on
[01:24] <mdke> i mean, legally it can't make a difference
[01:24] <Burgwork> really? are you certain?
[01:24] <LaserJock> but don't some license specifically state that the full text must be included?
[01:25] <mdke> Burgwork: no, i'm never certain. But logically, it can't
[01:25] <mdke> LaserJock: they might, but I don't see how they can, because a licence isn't them telling you what to do, it is you telling the world the basis on which they can use your material
[01:25] <Burgwork> mdke, the gfdl has that requirement. Wikipedia runs into it all the time
[01:26] <mdke> yeah, but the gfdl sucks
[01:26] <LaserJock> lol
[01:26] <mdke> Burgwork: and I'm not so sure it's a "requirement"
[01:26] <LaserJock> but I'm pretty sure CC-SA is ok, I remember seeing on their site, just link to this url
[01:26] <mdke> you can license your work however you like
[01:26] <Burgwork> mdke, I am pretty certain
[01:26] <mdke> they can't tell you what to do
[01:26] <Burgwork> what if you are using somebody elses stuff?
[01:27] <mdke> ah, that's different
[01:27] <mdke> then you have to comply with _their_ licence
[01:27] <mdke> which might say "you have to include the full text of our licence"
[01:27] <Burgwork> that is the issue
[01:28] <Burgwork> I want to create things for people to be able to use at tradeshows, etc.
[01:28] <mdke> yeah
[01:28] <mdke> i think we should rethink our licensing too
[01:28] <mdke> two licences, one of which has this crazy nonsense, is just silly
[01:29] <LaserJock> hmm, this might be a stupid question but, is it right to set the author to the doc team and copyright to Canonical and doc team for  ESA?
[01:31] <mdke> that's what we do for everything else
[01:32] <LaserJock> I know, but it just seems weird because the doc team didn't really come up with it, and I'm not really sure why Canonical would hold the copyright either
[01:32] <LaserJock> I'm not trying to be weird here, I just don't quite get the legalese of it
[01:32] <mdke> I don't know why Canonical would hold the copyright of anything we do
[01:32] <LaserJock> but it does, no?
[01:33] <mdke> how come?
[01:33] <LaserJock> Copyright  2004, 2005, 2006 Canonical Ltd. and members of the Ubuntu Documentation Project
[01:33] <LaserJock> that is on the top of all our docs
[01:33] <mdke> oh, yeah, that's what is written
[01:34] <mdke> why does screen crash?
[01:35] <LaserJock> hmm, hasn't for a while for me
[01:35] <LaserJock> so what does Copyright (c) Canonical Ltd. mean then?
[01:35] <mdke> no idea
[01:35] <mdke> doesn't seem to make sense
[01:36] <mdke> anyhow, the reason we have the team as author is to emphasis the group, and the individuals are listed under contributors.
[01:36] <mdke> generally, it's true that the _whole_ team hasn't contributed to a document
[01:36] <LaserJock> I can understand that
[01:36] <LaserJock> I'm primarly interested in the Canonical thing and docs that were created by non-docteam members that are then put into the repo
[01:37] <LaserJock> is it basically saying that we are in charge of anything in the repo
[01:37] <LaserJock> or hold the copyright or whatever
[01:38] <mdke> well, that is true.
[01:38] <mdke> it's our repo, as in, we can commit to it
[01:38] <Burgwork> LaserJock, we don't hold the copyright
[01:39] <LaserJock> I just want to be careful when I tell people, "Sure, lets throw it in the doc team svn repo"
[01:39] <mdke> oh right
[01:39] <LaserJock> I want to make sure I understand the consequences and what it means specifically for them
[01:39] <mdke> well, you own the copyright to what you write
[01:40] <mdke> if the person is listed as a contributor, that means their contribution is recorded
[01:40] <LaserJock> even if they aren't named in the Copyright (c) statment?
[01:40] <mdke> yeah, that doesn't mean anything
[01:40] <LaserJock> heh, ok
[01:41] <mdke> but yeah, I'd say that when someone adds a document to the repo, the document basically comes under our charge, in that any team member can edit it, and the team as a whole can take responsibility for it, I'd say
[01:41] <Burgwork> the other thing about copyright is that someone has to sue us if they feel we are doing something wrong
[01:41] <Burgwork> while we should be wary, I think this is unlikely
[01:42] <LaserJock> makes sense, I just don't want to look like I'm minimizing peoples work or taking away their rights or something
[01:42] <LaserJock> in this case, ESA was started by Pete and Andrea
[01:42] <mdke> LaserJock: they are listed at the top of the contributors
[01:42] <LaserJock> now they are listed under Contributors
[01:43] <LaserJock> I just want to make sure I'm looking out for them. I don't want to hurt them in any way
[01:43] <LaserJock> but I think I understand it better now
[01:44] <mdke> yeah, I understand totally
[01:44] <mdke> the copyright thing is crazy
[01:44] <LaserJock> Burgwork: so should I put it under CC-SA?
[01:44] <mdke> we should just say "Copyright: the contributors"
[01:45] <Burgwork> invent a license
[01:45] <LaserJock> maybe Canonical Ltd. (for whatever reason), members of the Ubuntu Documentation Project and contributors ?
[01:45] <LaserJock> Burgwork: ????? me?
[01:45] <Burgwork> yep, "Free use, modification and distribution allowed"
[01:45] <Burgwork> no need to get into the heavy GPL copy-left stuff
[01:45] <LaserJock> basically Public Domain?
[01:46] <Burgwork> basically
[01:46] <Burgwork> I could care less if marketing docs get pirated
[01:47] <mdke> you'd want the contributors credited, I'd say
[01:47] <mdke> I think something cc is a good idea
[01:48] <Burgwork> You are encourage to use, modify and distribute this, credit is kept
[01:48] <Burgwork> You are encourage to use, modify and distribute this, as long as credit is kept
[01:48] <jsgAWAY> hey guys
[01:48] <mdke> so, use an existing licence...
[01:48] <Burgwork> salut jsgotangco 
[01:49] <jsgotangco> good morning
[01:51] <jsgotangco> hmm still no sign of rc
[01:51] <mdke> jsgotangco: sure there is.
[01:51] <mdke> they released it
[01:51] <jsgotangco> ahh good i was looking into the topic of the channel
[01:54] <LaserJock> how does GPL work?
[01:54] <LaserJock> if I use a GPL'd doc when I'm writing something, how do I know what to do?
[01:55] <Burgwork> we could go MIT
[01:56] <jsgotangco> what do you mean how do you know what to do?
[01:57] <Burgwork> jsgotangco, sorry, don't follow what you just said
 if I use a GPL'd doc when I'm writing something, how do I know what to do?
[01:59] <mdke> ok, I put the edubuntu stuff on the preview server
[02:00] <mdke> the release notes are titled "EdEdubuntu"
[02:00] <mdke> ;)
[02:01] <LaserJock> hehe
[02:01] <LaserJock> actualy CC-by looks good
[02:01] <LaserJock> for ESA
[02:02] <LaserJock> if we really don't need the SA part
[02:03] <Burgwork> yep
[02:03] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: well, if I base work of a GPL'd doc, how would I make sure I'm keeping to their license
[02:04] <LaserJock> Burgwork: and it says:"You must include a copy of, or the Uniform Resource Identifier for, this License with every copy"
[02:04] <LaserJock> so I think that means a link will do
[02:04] <LaserJock> or URL I mean
[02:05] <Burgwork> yep, that works
[02:07] <Burgwork> the thing about marketing is that even if someone steal our writing, it isn't much use to them
[02:08] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: are you pushing ESA to edubuntu-docs package?
[02:08] <LaserJock> no
[02:08] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to clean up some license, authorship stuff
[02:08] <jsgotangco> oh
[02:09] <LaserJock> but the GPL question was for the Packaging Guide
[02:09] <LaserJock> I think I might have made a mistake with it
[02:09] <LaserJock> I sort of use some work from  some Debian docs, but I don't think I really ever say that I did that :/
[02:09] <jsgotangco> heh the last disc i tested actually became RC
[02:29] <LaserJock> ack, so I can't figure out if GPL requires attribution
[02:30] <jsgotangco> I believe you do
[02:30] <jsgotangco> (GFDL rather)
[02:30] <jsgotangco> err not required
[02:30] <jsgotangco> if i remember right
[02:30] <LaserJock> I don't see it  required in the GPL
[02:31] <LaserJock> just that you have to release a derivative under GPL
[02:31] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:31] <jsgotangco> and make your source available as well
[02:31] <LaserJock> right
[02:32] <jsgotangco> Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is available at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html.
[02:33] <jsgotangco> You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document under the conditions of sections 2 and 3 above, provided that you release the Modified Version under precisely this License, with the Modified Version filling the role of the Document, thus licensing distribution and modification of the Modified Version to whoever possesses a copy of it.
[02:34] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: but I'm talking about the GPL, not GFDL
[02:34] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[02:34] <jsgotangco> are you talking about the packaging guide?
[02:34] <LaserJock> yes
[02:34] <jsgotangco> ahh so the original work is GPL?
[02:35] <LaserJock> yeah, so I reworked some small items from some of the Debian docs which are GPL'd
[02:36] <LaserJock> but I was looking and I really never say that I did that, so I was wondering if I was violating the GPL :-)
[03:02] <LaserJock> hi Burgers!
[03:05] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
[03:05] <Madpilot> hi all
[03:33] <Madpilot> having fun with wireless?
[03:34] <Burgundavia> no wacom, not broadcom
[03:34] <Burgundavia> wacom is a drawing tablet
[03:34] <Burgundavia> Loc2 <-- who is this?
[03:34] <Madpilot> no idea
[03:34] <Madpilot> when did you buy a tablet, or are you just reading someone complaining about them?
[03:35] <Burgundavia> the wiki is a mess
[03:35] <Madpilot> I know - but what does that have to do with drawing tablets?
[03:36] <Burgundavia> the wacom pages are especially bad
[03:36] <Madpilot> ah
[03:36] <Burgundavia> and those people who have them also are usually artists
[03:36] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: probably https://launchpad.net/people/loic
[03:36] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, I figure as well
[03:37] <ajmitch> archive.u.c is slow with the RC being out
[03:37] <Burgundavia> however, the stuff daniels is working with regards to input hotplug shoudl help
[03:38] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyIdeas <-- lots of developer approved crack!
[03:38] <ajmitch> developer-approved??
[03:38] <Burgundavia> mdz wrote most of it
[03:38] <ajmitch> scary
[03:39] <ajmitch> ooh, f-spot for desktop love
[03:39] <Burgundavia> http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl/
[03:39] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:15] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, mdke either of you around?
[05:16] <jsgotangco> yes i am here
[05:16] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, see the thing from Lathiat to join the doc team?
[05:16] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:18] <jsgotangco> he wants to crack on the server guide for eft
[05:18] <Burgundavia> ah, cool
[05:18] <Burgundavia> I will approve him then
[05:18] <jsgotangco> thanks
[05:18] <Burgundavia> done
[05:18] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, welcome aboard
[05:55] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: :)
[05:55] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, you see the news about HOWL?
[05:56] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: indeed
[05:57] <Burgundavia> why is it, when you need a power cord, there are none to be found, but when you don't, there are lots?
[05:57] <Madpilot> because they hide
[05:58] <Burgundavia> I just need one flipping powercord for Andrea's old box, going to turn it into a server
[05:59] <Lathiat> heh
[05:59] <Lathiat> i have a box of them
[05:59] <Lathiat> but i manage to lose it when i want them... ;)
[09:18] <mdke> Burgundavia: erm... we've been limiting granting access to that group to people we grant access to svn... I've rejected loads of people on that basis
[09:19] <mdke> I know that Lathiat is already a community contributor and all, but I don't think we should make an exception on that basis until we've seen him send some patches and stuff, like we make everyone else do
[09:19] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok
[09:19] <mdke> (no offence Lathiat, I'm really happy you've come along)
[09:20] <Burgundavia> I figured for an established figure in the community, it was not a big deal
[09:20] <Madpilot> hi mdke 
[09:20] <mdke> Burgundavia: did you envisage giving immediate svn access?
[09:20] <mdke> Madpilot: hiya :)
[09:21] <Burgundavia> mdke, I didn't see any harm
[09:21] <mdke> Burgundavia: there is no harm
[09:21] <mdke> but people might get pissed off if we are inconsistent about giving svn access 
[09:22] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok
[09:28] <mdke> Burgundavia: do you agree with me? I don't wanna push it on you otherwise
[09:30] <Burgundavia> mdke, no, I agree
[09:30] <Burgundavia> I did chat briefly with jsgotangco before I dove in
[09:30] <mdke> yeah I know
[09:36] <mdke> what do people think about changing the tabs to | Stable docs | Community docs | ?
[09:36] <mdke> having read what mpt said, I kinda figure it doesn't make sense to distinguish between releases and the wiki stuff, because the latter has both
[09:38] <Madpilot> having version numbers is clearer, I think
[09:38] <mdke> even though the wiki contains docs for those versions too?
[09:38] <Burgundavia> what the hell is a "stable doc"
[09:38] <Burgundavia> your average user doesn't care
[09:39] <Madpilot> besides, as someone pointed out on the ML, Dapper is going to be 'stable' for a long time - we're going to have 6.06 docs up for quite a while, alongside later 'stable' sets
[09:39] <mdke> i couldn't think of a better word which actually demonstrates the meaningful distinction between the static and wiki documents
[09:40] <Madpilot> "Community Docs" is fine for the wiki, given that the word "wiki" means zip to a lot of people
[09:40] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, that's a good point
[09:41] <Madpilot> w/ 3 years support on the desktop, we're going to have to display 6.06 docs alongside a LOT of other sets of docs, actually.
[09:41] <mdke> you guys think that users will just automatically figure the difference between community docs and the version numbers?
[09:41] <mdke> maybe they will...
 I can't think of a way to be clearer, really. It's not perfect, but it'll have to do.
[09:42] <mdke> perhaps the only way to be clearer would be with more than one level of tabs ;)
[09:42] <mdke> ok, let's keep it as it is then
[09:43] <Madpilot> gah, they still haven't killed that giant oversized quite dialogue in Dapper RC...
[09:44] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, that will not die until after release, I think
[09:44] <Burgundavia> desrt and I were talking about it
[09:44] <Burgundavia> seems sabdfl gets one stupid idea per release and will not back down from it
[09:44] <Madpilot> wonder if I can keep Breezy's sane little logout dialogue when I dist-upgrade to Dapper? ;)
[09:45] <Burgundavia> not without patching gnome-panel
[09:45] <Madpilot> yeah, I know, but I can wish.
[09:50] <Madpilot> it occupies two or three times the screen area compared to Breezy's, but has *fewer* functions (no Save Session checkbox anymore, for example...)
[09:51] <Madpilot> however, "It's ugly" wouldn't make a good bug report ;)
[09:51] <jsgotangco> i like the colors
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I need to sleep
[09:51] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, machine is going down. YOu still doing anything?'
[09:51] <Madpilot> nope
[09:52] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:59] <robitaille> Madpilot:  you can use the default gnome logout menu instead of the ubuntu one in Dapper by changing an option with gconf-editor
[09:59] <Madpilot> robitaille, good to know, for when Dapper's oversized one gets to me ;)
[09:59] <robitaille> search for the "upstream_session" key 
[10:13] <Madpilot> has anyone else noticed the item on the agenda for the next CC meeting, about the wiki licensing?
[10:22] <mdke> no
[10:23] <mdke> yeah the logout sucks
[10:36] <Madpilot> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda - only item on the agenda
[10:36] <mdke> yeah, saw it now
[10:37] <Madpilot> "screenshots of themes made outside of Ubuntu" - that strikes me as being spurious - it's just a screenshot, not the theme itself...
[10:37] <mdke> yes. but the question of whether code or artwork attached to the wiki must be public domain is a good question
[10:39] <Madpilot> code is more difficult, yeah... but do we really have that much code in the wiki?
[10:39] <mdke> dunno, potentially yeah
[10:50] <Madpilot> need sleep - later, all
[11:14] <cbx33> anyone know a good howto for setting up svn+apache
[11:14] <cbx33> with webdav
[11:15] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SubVersion
[11:15] <cbx33> mdke: you're a star
[11:16] <cbx33> thanx bud
[11:28] <mdke> np
[11:28] <mdke> that page should clearly not have a capital V
[12:25] <cbx33> mdke: i'm having a bit of trouble with that svn howto
[12:25] <cbx33> most of it has been fine
[12:25] <cbx33> just need a little pointer.....I have successfully checked out the repo
[12:25] <cbx33> but myproblem is with commiting....I have followed your instructions, but ti's coming up with a permission denied
[12:26] <mdke> cbx33: no idea, I've never set up an svn repo. Try #svn?
[12:26] <cbx33> h rats
[12:26] <cbx33> I can;t get there right now
[12:26] <cbx33> cgi-irc
[12:26] <mdke> there are some cgi-ircs that you can use to join any channel
[12:27] <cbx33> indeed there are
[12:27] <mdke> tp://irc.sourpuss.net/irc.cgi
[12:27] <cbx33> but I have restricted mine
[12:27] <mdke> with an ht in front
[12:27] <cbx33> that site is blocked by the isp at the school
[12:27] <cbx33> grrrr
[12:27] <cbx33> hence why i use my own
[12:28] <cbx33> :S
[12:28] <mdke> ah
[12:28] <mdke> what are you setting up, out of interest?
[12:30] <cbx33> well
[12:30] <cbx33> it's an svn repository so staff at the school can access the svn repo I setup from home
[12:30] <cbx33> and from school
[12:31] <cbx33> because I can;t setup a server inside the school, as the firwall at the city won;t allow any incoming traffic
[12:32] <cbx33> i know the problem I'm having is a simple permissions problem
[12:33] <cbx33> I did these instructions
[12:33] <cbx33>    $ sudo mkdir myproject   $ sudo chown -R root:subversion myproject   $ sudo chmod -R g+rws myproject
[12:33] <cbx33> and I've been added to the subversion group...
[12:33] <cbx33> but every folder subsequent from that has permissions like so
[12:33] <cbx33> drwxr-sr-x 5 root subversion 4096 2006-05-26 11:39 db
[12:34] <cbx33> and won't let me write to it...because group write is missing
[12:35] <cbx33> does anyone have any idea what those instructions should have said
[12:35] <mdke> no idea sorry
[12:41] <cbx33> thanks anyway mdke 
[01:54] <bhuvan> cbx33: you refer "server guide" documentation in your system. the wiki seem to be incorrect
[02:14] <cbx33> bhuvan: wherE?
[03:15] <cbx33> brb
[03:35] <t_z> I downloaded flight7 instead of RC by mistake. At http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperrc under Installation, the "direct download" link is incorrect.
[03:37] <mdke> t_z: thanks for pointing it out, I'll check
[03:37] <t_z> mdke: np
[03:38] <mdke> t_z: no, it's the right link
[03:38] <mdke> http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.06/
[03:39] <t_z> For me"direct download" it links to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/dapper/ which has flight7/ dir only.
[03:39] <mdke> erm, well now it looks right
[03:39] <mdke> are you sure?
[03:40] <mdke> oh, my bad
[03:41] <mdke> t_z: yeah was looking at the wrong link. Fixed now, thanks
[03:42] <t_z> mdke: confirmed fixed. thanks.
[05:05] <mdke> mgalvin: those picasa links are not found
[05:06] <mgalvin> yea, highvoltage said the same but they work for here for me... grr lemme see whats going on
[05:07] <mdke> i can't find any mention on linux on the site, it just says "linux is not supported"
[05:07] <mgalvin> bah, i have the package here :)
[05:09] <mgalvin> so http://picasa.google.com/linux/
[05:10] <mgalvin> doesn't work at all for you
[05:10] <mdke> that's correct
[05:10] <dsas> 404s for me too
[05:10] <mdke> must be some fault on their side with a pool or servers or whatever
[05:10] <mdke> *of
[05:10] <mgalvin> dsas are you also in uk?
[05:10] <dsas> yep
[05:11] <mgalvin> hmm
[05:11] <LaserJock> works for me
[05:11] <mgalvin> works from here in the us but not from the uk it seems :-/
[05:11] <mgalvin> well, i guess i will just add a note to the post about that
[05:12] <mdke> no worries, it will probably sync up eventually
[05:12] <mgalvin> yea
[05:12] <dsas> I can read it using links on a US based computer :)
[05:13] <jeffsch> i'm in vancouver and get 404
[05:17] <mgalvin> oh well, i added a note
[05:18] <mgalvin> i put it here if you guys want to grab it
[05:18] <mgalvin> http://people.simplifiedcomplexity.com/~mgalvin/downloads/picasa_2.2.2820-5_i386.deb
[05:18] <mgalvin> its 21M
[05:18] <mgalvin> (might be a little slow)
[05:20] <jeffsch> interesting.... google search of picasa_2.2.2820-5_i386.deb turns up no matches
[05:21] <jeffsch> you'd think it would show up somewhere
[05:21] <LaserJock> mgalvin: hehe, the MOTU in me wants to ask you for the source package ;-)
[05:21] <mgalvin> haha :)
[05:22] <jeffsch> LaserJock: i have a motu question...
[05:22] <jeffsch> ubuntu follows lsb, right?
[05:22] <LaserJock> probably when we want to ;-)
[05:23] <jeffsch> when you are packaging an app that does not follow lsb, do you convert it, or just let it be?
[05:23] <LaserJock> it sort of depends on the maintainer, we would usually encourage the authors to do it right
[05:23] <LaserJock> but often we do "tweak" things
[05:24] <jeffsch> do you document those tweaks?
[05:25] <LaserJock> jeffsch: yes, a source package consists of the original tarball from the authors and then a diff that has all the changes we make
[05:25] <LaserJock> and a .dsc file that holds md5sums, etc.
[05:25] <jeffsch> what about the binary package?
[05:27] <LaserJock> I don't think so other than what is in the changelog
[05:27] <jeffsch> k
[05:28] <LaserJock> does that answer your question sufficently?
[05:28] <jeffsch> yes
[05:29] <jeffsch> it's just that for some apps (none come to mind), once you apt-get install, you have to know how to find the config files, etc etc
[05:30] <jeffsch> because the documentation on the app website says it's in one place
[05:30] <jeffsch> but the package puts it in another
[05:30] <jeffsch> i assumed it was because of lsb compliance
[05:31] <LaserJock> probably
[05:31] <LaserJock> but I think I've seen more of authors not putting things where they say they are and the packagers fixing it ;-)
[05:32] <jeffsch> that's probably true too... the docs tend to be a version or two behind the times....
[05:33] <jeffsch> apache2 docs, for eg
[05:35] <jeffsch> the *label* says version 2, but they often refer to httpd.conf instead of the newer files (sites-enabled/default, etc)
[05:35] <mdke> ouch
[05:35] <LaserJock> but yeah, I had to fix a package that hard coded the docs to /usr/share/<package>/docs when we usually do /usr/share/docs/<package>
[05:36] <LaserJock> if I remember right I uploaded a fix for something similar in iptables
[05:37] <LaserJock> but that kind of thing is why Ubuntu rocks hard core and the devs don't get any sleep :-)
[06:45] <Burgwork> anybody know what "Landscape client" is?
[06:51] <robotgeek> nope
[06:51] <robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-May/006299.html , what can i do?
[06:52] <robotgeek> i guess nothing much till i come back on monday, later
[07:00] <mdke> robotgeek: yeah, _always_ use the entity
[07:01] <mdke> oh, wrong mail
[07:03] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you around?
[08:15] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yep
[08:16] <jjesse> LaserJock: thanks for comitting the change for me.. can you make sure it goes in trunk as well as branches?
[08:16] <LaserJock> jjesse: what change?
[08:16] <jjesse> oh shoot that was robotgeek
[08:16] <jjesse> sorry bout that
[08:17] <jjesse> for some reason i always get the two of you confused
[08:17] <LaserJock> hehe, np. I just wondered what I was doing
[08:17] <LaserJock> robot:laser , geek:jock
[08:17] <LaserJock> I can see it
[08:17] <mdke> GeekJock
[08:17] <mdke> nice
[08:17] <jjesse> gren
[08:17] <jjesse> gin
[08:18] <jsgotangco> heh the picasa on linux runs on its own wine libs
[08:18] <mdke> third time lucky
[08:18] <jjesse> grin
[08:18] <LaserJock> mdke: my mom sometimes teases me and calls me a geek god (play on greek god I guess)
[08:19] <mdke> heh
[08:19] <LaserJock> that was when I had the "magic" touch with computers
[08:19] <jjesse> does that mean you no longer have the magic touch ?
[08:20] <LaserJock> when I was younger, it seemed like my presence in a room would make computer problems disappear
[08:20] <LaserJock> today I know too much and now I'm dangerous
[08:20] <jjesse> ah i have that same aura sometimes :)
[08:20] <jsgotangco> my wife hides her macbook from me
[08:20] <LaserJock> there for a while it was really creepy
[08:21] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: because you will break it or because you will never give it back?
[08:21] <jsgotangco> i am very obsessed with it
[08:22] <jsgotangco> she makes sure she locks it up in her private closet before we sleep
[08:22] <jsgotangco> im not kidding
[08:23] <LaserJock> my wife told me to divorce her laptop :-)
[08:24] <LaserJock> Dapper has to be released soon, it might be "Choose between me and Ubuntu" and I don't want to have to make that kind of decision ;-)
[08:24] <Burgwork> LaserJock, might you be looking for a new wife?
[08:26] <LaserJock> Burgwork: no, no. but Ubuntu would be verrrry hard to give up
[08:26] <Burgwork> LaserJock, hmm, indeed
[08:26] <Burgwork> I am single now, but my last gf was very supportive of my work with Ubuntu
[08:26] <LaserJock> but everyone needs a vice, right?
[08:26] <Burgwork> although she also did not let me touch her iBook
[08:27] <LaserJock> I don't drink, or smoke, or anything so.. I think Ubuntu can be my vice :-)
[08:28] <LaserJock> well, my wife hates computer and really isn't fond of Linux because it is what I'm doing all the time when she wants me to help around the house, etc.
[08:28] <LaserJock> but she does hate MS so that is good :-)
[08:30] <jsgotangco> it doesnt really matter much to my wife as long sa her web apps work
[08:30] <jjesse> as long as my wife can check her webmail and "chat" on her forums she is happy
[08:32] <LaserJock> it isn't so much using Linux as the fact that I'm always using Linux :-)
[08:32] <LaserJock> she doesn't like TV or technology much in general 
[08:33] <LaserJock> it is one area that we are really different
[08:37] <jsgotangco> my wife is more into phones
[08:40] <LaserJock> my wife is into crafts and cooking :-)
[08:41] <crimsun> my thinkpad .. oh, wives. nevermind.
[08:41] <Burgwork> crimsun, indeed. These old married farts
[08:42] <jsgotangco> bug off, my 4 year old already knows what ubuntu looks like 
[08:42] <LaserJock> hehe, yes I'm sooo old
[08:42] <Burgwork> LaserJock, how old are you?
[08:42] <crimsun> fogey
[08:42] <LaserJock> Burgwork: 24 and I've been married for almost 5
[08:42] <jsgotangco> 24? seriously?
[08:43] <Burgwork> married since 19? you are nuts
[08:43] <LaserJock> that was my senior year of undergrad
[08:43] <Burgwork> if all goes well, I will be at Ubucon on the 24th birthday
[08:43] <jsgotangco> how big would that be?
[08:44] <crimsun> geez, youngun.
[08:44] <LaserJock> I got married, a bunch of people in my family died :(, and then we were off to grad school, all in 9 months
[08:44] <LaserJock> it was sort of crazy
[08:44] <jjesse> wow i feel old at 28 :)
[08:44] <crimsun> jjesse: fogey
[08:44] <LaserJock> jjesse: my wife is 27 :-)
[08:44] <jsgotangco> meh im probably the oldest fart here
[08:44] <Burgwork> jjesse, don't worry, jsgotangco has got us all beat
[08:44] <LaserJock> crimsun: how much of a fogey are you?
[08:44] <crimsun> I'm 27.
[08:44] <jjesse> seriously?  jsgotangco how old are u?
[08:44] <jsgotangco> 31
[08:45] <crimsun> lamont's 40ish
[08:45] <jjesse> hmmm not too much older :)
[08:45] <jjesse> and how old is mdke
[08:45] <jsgotangco> oh he's just a kid
[08:45] <LaserJock> crimsun: how long have you been teaching?
[08:45] <crimsun> 3 years
[08:45] <LaserJock> cool
[08:46] <LaserJock> hopefully I'll have my PhD when I'm 25 and then I can start teaching
[08:46] <dsas> I wonder if I'm the youngest?
[08:46] <crimsun> run away, dude. run very far away. :-)
[08:47] <LaserJock> hehe, I'm thinking about it, but there aren't a lot of industrial jobs for Physical Chemists
[08:47] <LaserJock> the NSA hires quite a few though :-)
[08:47] <crimsun> yes, yes they do.
[08:47] <jjesse> you can then listen in to all of our phones calls while at the NSA
[08:47] <LaserJock> muahhahaha
[08:47] <crimsun> you won't touch that side of the NSA
[08:48] <crimsun> that's all sigint
[08:48] <LaserJock> no, but Physical chemists are usually pretty ok with computers and electronics
[08:48] <mdke> i'm 24
[08:48] <LaserJock> a grad student in my lab did a lot of image analysis for his PhD
[08:48] <crimsun> LaserJock: right, but you won't even be allowed in that section
[08:48] <LaserJock> and they sort of wanted him
[08:48] <jjesse> mdke: no offense but you come across as older
[08:48] <mdke> thanks
[08:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, did you see my /query ?
[08:50] <crimsun> jjesse: there's a fairly bad misconception of the NSA thanks to what has been happening lately. Actually very few sigints are involved in listening, as it's all tools. :-)
[08:52] <jjesse> crimsun: i personall don't view that what is going on itsn't the worst thing that can be done.  the idea seems like a good idea to me
[08:52] <jjesse> i want persue it any more
[08:54] <jsgotangco> ciao good night
[08:54] <jjesse> good nigt jsgotangco
[10:19] <mdke> mgalvin: links work here now
[10:19] <mgalvin> mdke: ah cool, thanks, i will remove the note then
[10:36] <mdke> resetting the firmware on the ipod
[10:36] <LaserJock> that's sort of funny
[10:37] <LaserJock> Going from Linux, into Windows, to update an Apple iPod :-)
[10:37] <mdke> aw heck
[10:37] <mdke> let's try this rockbox lark
[10:38] <mdke> i can't face rebooting into Windows
[10:42] <LaserJock> yeah, I don't dual boot very well
[10:42] <LaserJock> I have to just have Linux or just have Windows
[10:43] <mdke> i kept windows because Canonical insisted on it but I never use it except for formatting my ipod
[10:43] <mdke> I can't do anything on it
[10:43] <LaserJock> lol, that's like my boss. I watching him try to set up a printer once in Windows
[10:43] <LaserJock> it was pretty funny
[10:43] <mdke> stupid thing can't even print
[10:43] <mdke> argh, why did I press return
[10:44] <mdke> I seriously couldn't get it to print to the network printer at the office
[10:44] <LaserJock> yeah, I have a similar experience here in the lab
[10:44] <mdke> I think it wanted me to log in with the same username as my network username
[10:45] <LaserJock> we have a HP Color LaserJet with the JetDirect card
[10:45] <LaserJock> Ubuntu takes about 20 s to setup, all I have to do is tell it the name
[10:45] <mdke> even less here, cups just detects them automatically
[10:45] <LaserJock> in Windows you have to go through this long install process, etc. because it doesn't do it "Out of the Box"
[10:46] <LaserJock> ah, well we don't do stuff like that because then other groups will use our printer ;-)
[10:46] <mdke> thankfully then run a linux print server at the office :)
[10:47] <mdke> with samba/cups
[10:47] <mdke> ah crap
[10:48] <mdke> the partition table is all screwed up
[11:34] <mdke> man this rockbox business is GREAT
[11:34] <mdke> I'll never boot into Windows again
[11:35] <Burgwork> mdke, uhh, what are you using rockbox for?
[11:35] <mdke> my ipod
[11:35] <Burgwork> ah
[11:36] <mdke> my ipod now supports ogg
[11:36] <mdke> I need some oggs
[11:36] <LaserJock> it does?
[11:36] <LaserJock> how cool
[11:36] <mdke> i need to test it, but it says it does
[11:36] <mdke> if it does, I'll try and convert all my mp3s
[11:37] <dsas> doesn't rockbox zap battery life or something?
[11:38] <Burgwork> mdke, I wouldn't convert mp3's
[11:38] <mdke> dsas: you mean per recharge, or in general?
[11:38] <Burgwork> lossy to lossy is a bad idea
[11:38] <dsas> mdke: Per recharge, sure I read something about it recently.
[11:38] <mdke> Burgwork: meh... I'll just have to rerip as much as possible then
[11:38] <mdke> dsas: well, that's likely yeah. As long as it isn't damaging the battery I don't mind
[11:42] <LaserJock> mdke: I converted some high quality mp3s and I couldn't notice a difference really, but I listen to the radio alot so...
[11:42] <mdke> I will try and see
[11:42] <mdke> how's it done?
[11:44] <LaserJock> I think there are some mp32ogg apps out there, I think I found one on the forums last time I tried way back when
[11:54] <mdke> ogg works nicely
[11:55] <LaserJock> converted?
[11:55] <LaserJock> or reripped?
[11:56] <mdke> i mean, it works on the ipod
[11:56] <mdke> (ripped)
[12:16] <mdke> robotgeek, anyone else with l33t scripting skilz: ping?
[12:18] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:19] <LaserJock> how easy is it? Bash or Python or ...
[12:20] <mdke> no idea
[12:20] <mdke> looks pretty easy
[12:22] <mdke> LaserJock: you wanna give it a go?
[12:23] <LaserJock> I can at least look at it and see if it is in the realm of possibility :-)
[12:23] <mdke> ok
[12:23] <mdke> go to branches/dapper/kubuntu/
[12:23] <LaserJock> k
[12:23] <mdke> have a look at khelpdesktop/kubuntu/aboutkubuntu.desktop
[12:24] <mdke> we need that translated
[12:24] <mdke> potentially, the string can come from the xml file
[12:24] <mdke> (the title)
[12:25] <LaserJock> so you want to fill in the .desktop from the XML translations?
[12:25] <mdke> that's it
[12:26] <mdke> the Name[xyz]  bit can come from the directories under aboutkubuntu/ and the string from the title of the xml translation
[12:27] <mdke> or, we can do some by hand
[12:28] <LaserJock> I wouldn't think a script would be too hard
[01:42] <crimsun> that's totally a python job
[01:42] <LaserJock> crimsun: yeah, I suppose. I'm doing it in bash ATM
[01:42] <crimsun> yeah, you certainly can do it in bash
[01:43] <LaserJock> I'm probably more comfortable with Python
[01:43] <LaserJock> in some ways
[01:51] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[01:52] <mdke> LaserJock: yo
[01:54] <LaserJock> mdke: this is probably terrible shell scripting but it seems to work http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14699
[01:54] <LaserJock> mdke: I just ran that in the folder with the .desktops
[01:54] <LaserJock> crimsun could probably thrash it pretty good :-)
[01:54] <mdke> LaserJock: dude, as long as it works
[01:55] <mdke> will it work for the other guides too, you think?
[01:55] <LaserJock> yeah, as long as you adjust it properly
[01:56] <mdke> does it work?
[01:56] <LaserJock> for about kubuntu?
[01:56] <LaserJock> it looks good to me
[01:57] <mdke> LaserJock: ok, would you run the script, and upload the changes?
[01:57] <LaserJock> what do you want it done on? all the .desktops in there?
[01:58] <mdke> yes, although you'll need a different script for each, I guess
[01:58] <mdke> similar though
[04:24] <Burgundavia> 24.69.71.211 Madpilot 
[04:25] <Madpilot> works
[04:25] <Burgundavia> can you get me some content now?
[04:25] <Burgundavia> in fact, you can do that
[04:25] <Madpilot> not instantly, but in a few hours, yes
[04:26] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[04:26] <Madpilot> I can fire up a plain placeholder page in about half an hour, though
[04:26] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[04:26] <Burgundavia> dns is not yet turned over
[04:28] <Madpilot> OK
[04:28] <Burgundavia> hey ghee22 
[04:28] <Madpilot> got it mounted in Naut too now
[04:28] <Burgundavia> here is the skinny on the quicktour
[04:28] <ghee22> hey burgundavia
[04:28] <Burgundavia> I produced that doc, along with other people, as part of the breezy cycle
[04:29] <Burgundavia> it has not been updated and is now gone
[04:29] <ghee22> oof
[04:29] <Burgundavia> however, content from that has morphed into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Desktop
[04:29] <Burgundavia> that page will eventually move to ubuntu.com/desktop
[04:29] <ghee22> well, here's what I have to offer.  I have checked out the links on the quicktourdraft wiki page and emailed all those links' authors for permission to use their stuff
[04:30] <Burgundavia> what do you want it for, again?
[04:30] <ghee22> I'm the duede working on the Ubuntu Welcome Center as part of Google's SoC
[04:30] <Burgundavia> welcome center?
[04:31] <Burgundavia> got a link to the proposal?
[04:31] <ghee22> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
[04:31] <ghee22> the proposal is copied into there
[04:32] <Burgundavia> did I not see screenshots floating about?
[04:33] <ghee22> I don't have any yet.  I'm drafting the screenshots this week
[04:33] <Burgundavia> I saw some sort of help/welcome center screenshots
[04:33] <ghee22> on the proposal?  where did you see these
[04:33] <Burgundavia> could be, but the proposal is down now
[04:34] <Burgundavia> ghee22, do you mind if I play devils advocate for a bit here?
[04:34] <ghee22> ok...
[04:34] <Burgundavia> I am a little concerned about the focus
[04:35] <Burgundavia> I like the idea, in general but am deeply concerned it can go astray really quickly
[04:35] <Burgundavia> the quicktour was designed as a marketing document, not a help one
[04:35] <Burgundavia> the weclome center, imho, should be the latter, not the former
[04:36] <ghee22> I see where you are going with this.  The direction of where the content should push the user is different
[04:36] <ghee22> quicktour:  get ubuntu.   welcome center:  how to use ubuntu
[04:36] <Burgundavia> yep
[04:36] <Burgundavia> well, quicktour is dead, but yes
[04:36] <ghee22> but the apps in the content is very similar
[04:36] <ghee22> openoffice
[04:36] <ghee22> firefox
[04:36] <Burgundavia> but the writing is very very different
[04:37] <Burgundavia> they already have Ubuntu
[04:37] <ghee22> Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Let's look at the proposal. "A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu. The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu."  I'm definitely not planning on copying and pasting
[04:38] <ghee22> would you like me to email you my
[04:38] <Burgundavia> ok, just chcking
[04:38] <ghee22> proposal
[04:38] <Burgundavia> sure
[04:38] <Burgundavia> the wiki one lacks a clear roadmap, imho
[04:38] <ghee22> first of all, and I don't mean this in an accusatory tone, are you an Ubuntu volunteer/employee
[04:38] <Burgundavia> volunteer
[04:38] <ghee22> I'd just like to see who's opinion I'm taking. 
[04:38] <ghee22> ok
[04:39] <ghee22> are you on planet
[04:39] <Burgundavia> I have been with the doc team since Dec 2004
[04:39] <ghee22> burger
[04:39] <Burgundavia> yep, Corey Burger
[04:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot is my older brother and my first successful Ubuntu conversion
[04:39] <ghee22> ok great!  now I your opinions have much more "fruit" behind it than a some joe schmoe who joined the irc channel
[04:39] <ghee22> (kind of like me right now...)
[04:40] <Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/people/corey.burger
[04:40] <ghee22> getting proposal
[04:41] <Burgundavia> I also sell desktop Linux on a daily basis, so I am getting a fair idea of what startles people and what doesn't
[04:41] <theCore> "my first successful Ubuntu conversion", that have a religious *dang* to me :)
[04:41] <ghee22> ok... so copy into here?  I don't see your email addy in your profile..
[04:41] <Burgundavia> ghee22, corey.burger@gmail.com
[04:41] <theCore> s/have/has
[04:41] <Burgundavia> theCore, and the good Lord said you shalt have Ubuntu and it was good :)
[04:42] <theCore> hehe :)
[04:43] <ghee22> done burg
[04:43] <Madpilot> theCore, hardly - my XP install melted down, and I called him up and offered beer in exchange for a working system ;)
[04:45] <Madpilot> a six-pack later, I had one, and it was brown :)
[04:45] <Burgundavia> needly to say, I wasn't very keen on fixing his XP install
[04:45] <theCore> ROFL!
[04:46] <theCore> that the way to convert someone :D
[04:47] <Burgundavia> ghee22, can you copy a lot of that proposal onto the wiki page
[04:47] <Burgundavia> it answers a lot of my questions
[04:47] <Burgundavia> but it does bring up another one
[04:47] <Burgundavia> who is going to create the content?
[04:48] <Burgundavia> that will overlap with the docteams work a great deal
[04:48] <theCore> I think I got a good idea for new guide : "The Ubuntu Productivity Guide"
[04:48] <ghee22> surely, I'm really new at this spec stuff...  I guess I am.  I've created a lot of in the proposal.  Should I put it in implementation?
[04:48] <Burgundavia> yep
[04:49] <Burgundavia> theCore, step 1: apt-get remove xchat xchat-gnome
[04:49] <theCore> :'(
[04:50] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, also apt-get remove gaim irssi, just to be complete ;)
[04:50] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
[04:50] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
[04:50] <jsgotangco> hi!
[04:50] <Burgundavia> ghee22, I would use this overall ui of 6.25 in this doc http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-notebooks.html
[04:51] <Burgundavia> ghee22, and then I would make it so that the welcome center is merely links into existing docs
[04:52] <theCore> jsgotangco: I'm just wandering, are you the owner of that URL: http://people.debian.org/~jerome/ ?
[04:52] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we are discussing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
[04:52] <Burgundavia> theCore, seriously, what is your plan for a productivity guide?
[04:52] <jsgotangco> theCore: no that's not me
[04:52] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that got in to SoC no?
[04:52] <theCore> jsgotangco: ah, ok
[04:52] <Burgundavia> it did
[04:53] <Burgundavia> ghee22 is going to be writing it
[04:53] <jsgotangco> who's mentoring?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> no idea
[04:57] <theCore> Burgundavia: well, I would like to deliver all the Tips & Tricks from the old Desktop guide to this guide in more structured way. Plus, some tips on how to spend less time administrating the system, how to learn touch-typing, how to use /your-app-here/ efficiently, 
[04:58] <theCore> etc
[04:58] <Burgundavia> not sure that is entirely useful, tbh
[04:58] <Burgundavia> at least, as one giant doc
[04:58] <Madpilot> theCore, that's a fairly sprawling mandate for one doc, isn't it?
[04:59] <theCore> Madpilot: yeah, it would be interesting
[04:59] <theCore> Madpilot: but a huge work to do
[04:59] <Burgundavia> theCore, it would be better to do that a number of smaller doc
[05:00] <Madpilot> most of the old Tip & Tricks chapter in the Ubuntu DG has been parceled out across the rest of the guide
[05:00] <Burgundavia> plus, tbh, our job is to figure out how to write less
[05:00] <ghee22> sorry for delay, brb in 5
[05:00] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: its not in the google site for ubuntu
[05:01] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I don't see it either. I might be mistaken
[05:03] <Burgundavia> either way, ghee22 sounds keen and we should work with him to produce something stellar
[05:05] <ghee22> stellar we want, stellar it is  :o)
[05:05] <ghee22> I'm starting to understand why everyone says Ubuntu helpers gives warm welcomes to all
[05:05] <Burgundavia> absolutely. Me playing devils advocate is all about getting the best, nothing to do with the creator
[05:06] <Madpilot> ghee22, are you on the docteam mailing list yet?
[05:06] <ghee22> jsgotangco, Simon Law is mentoring me
[05:06] <jsgotangco> oh great
[05:06] <ghee22> Madpilot, no, not yet.  starting to join right now... googling it
[05:06] <Burgundavia> lists.ubuntu.com
[05:06] <ghee22> got it
[05:06] <Madpilot> ghee22, wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[05:08] <ghee22> madpilot, ok I'm subscribed
[05:12] <Laser_away> hi ghee22
[05:24] <ghee22> hi laserjock
[06:14] <jsgotangco> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[06:15] <theCore> bonsoir LaserJock
[06:15] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: ? that doesn't sound good
[06:15] <Burgundavia> jsgAWAY, hmm?
[06:15] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, rather
[06:15] <jsgotangco> CAN ANYONE GIVE JOEL BRYAN A PIECE OF ADVICE NOT TO CROSS POST I GIVE UP
[06:16] <Burgundavia> clue bat?
[06:16] <jsgotangco> if he goes to our local release party i will chew him
[06:16] <jsgotangco> (he is a local here)
[06:16] <Burgundavia> he didn't cross post this time
[06:16] <Burgundavia> oh, wait
[06:17] <LaserJock> I sort of have a mental Ignore feature that he has been added to :/
[06:19] <Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
[06:19] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, it is too bad, because he is actually not a total loss
[06:21] <jsgotangco> some of his ideas are good, but it seems he is trying to catch attention
[06:21] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[06:21] <jsgotangco> he asked via email an hour ago what is a sounder list then he just CC
[06:21] <jsgotangco> 'ed sounder as well
[06:23] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree
[06:45] <ghee22> what is cross posting
[06:45] <ghee22> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_post  nevermind
[06:49] <LaserJock> hmm, I just noticed that Nautilus doesn't do the spatial browsing thing
[06:49] <Burgundavia> that has been the default since breezy
[06:50] <jsgotangco> can anyone confirm in g-a-i after installing an application the OK button is not clickable
[06:50] <LaserJock> wow, shows how much I've used GUI file browsers
[06:51] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, Dapper or Breezy?
[06:51] <jsgotangco> Dapper
[06:51] <Madpilot> still running Breezy here
[06:51] <LaserJock> ouch :-)
[06:52] <Burgundavia> I haven't switched this machine yhet
[06:52] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, I have an idea for you
[06:52] <mgalvin> hi by the way ;)
[06:53] <Burgundavia> hey
[06:53] <Burgundavia> mark got a bug in his hat about newletters from edubuntu, kubuntu and ubuntu
[06:53] <Burgundavia> afaik, nobody has stepped forward for ubuntu
[06:54] <mgalvin> i would certainly like to take on the task
[06:54] <mgalvin> (if that is what you are getting at)
[06:54] <Burgundavia> basically
[06:54] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: that is Add/Remove Applications?
[06:54] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: yes
[06:55] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: who is doing the edubuntu and kubuntu letters?
[06:55] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: it worked fine here
[06:55] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: thanks (it happens in edubuntu)
[06:55] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco for edubuntu and riddell for kubuntu
[06:56] <mgalvin> ok cool, is there any plans or any specifics mark has in mind yet?
[06:57] <Burgundavia> I just saw an email on the edubuntu list
[06:57] <Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-May/001454.html
[06:58] <mgalvin> i gotta sign back up for that list
[06:59] <mgalvin> i got off some of the b/c i was swamped with thousands of emails a day
[06:59] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think pygi is also going to work on it
[06:59] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, oh
[06:59] <Burgundavia> ?] 
[06:59] <LaserJock> and perhaps cbx33 as he wants to be involved in everything
[07:00] <mgalvin> i'll reply to that thread in a sec... seems a natural progression for me since i have been keeping on top of everything for those tours
[07:00] <mgalvin> LaserJock: they are looking to do the ubuntu letter?
[07:01] <mgalvin> i'll try and catch up with them and see if i can help out if they have already started anything
[07:02] <LaserJock> mgalvin: no edubuntu
[07:03] <mgalvin> ah ok
[07:11] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: actually with g-a-i the ok button isn't greyed out, it just doesn't do anything :(
[07:11] <mgalvin> so if i just reply to that thread with the same subject will mailman keep the thread together? (i don't have the original email to reply to)
[07:13] <rob> is it me or do the example chapters completely overlap with the guides (in particular the Desktop Guide)?
[07:13] <Burgundavia> rob, yep, they do
[07:15] <rob> in fact if I didn't know better I could have sworn I was reading the Desktop Guide when I was checking them out earlier
[07:19] <LaserJock> well, at least it's consistent then
[07:19] <Burgundavia> jono is a good writer and you are likely looking at his chapters
[07:20] <rob> yes, there are three (one is Kubuntu)
[07:21] <jsgotangco> ?
[07:21] <jsgotangco> sorry i was fixing our toilet
[07:21] <mgalvin> what fun
[07:21] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: yeah i just saw our water bill shoot up
[07:22] <rob> jsgotangco, for us you'll need to open them in Konqueror from /usr/share/example-content
[07:22] <jsgotangco> the culprit is the toilet
[07:23] <jsgotangco> edubuntu doesn't have the book
[07:24] <jsgotangco> (we
[07:24] <rob> I have to wonder why it wasn't just taken from the Desktop Guide in the first place
[07:24] <jsgotangco> (we're fighting for space by the kb)
[07:25] <LaserJock> The Desktop Guide wasn't finished when they were writing the book was it?
[07:25] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, sort of
[07:25] <Burgundavia> the book was designed as a standalone book
[07:25] <rob> so, why duplicate the effort?
[07:25] <Burgundavia> because the licenses it was released under are a sideeffect, unlike our stuff
[07:26] <rob> when is it going to be relicenced?
[07:26] <Burgundavia> it was built as a book and it happens to be under a free license, so here we are
[07:26] <Burgundavia> bits of it already are
[07:26] <Burgundavia> the rest when the book releases in Aug
[07:27] <rob> kind of seems silly to me, did the publisher not want any one reading it before it was released?
[07:27] <Burgundavia> umm, I don't understand what you are saying
[07:27] <LaserJock> most publishers don't I don't think
[07:27] <Burgundavia> you are reading it right now, before it has been released
[07:27] <Burgundavia> we passed off the last reviews last week
[07:29] <rob> I guess what I'm saying is why didn't the doc team itself just write the book in a separate repo or some such thing?
[07:30] <rob> we basically have had two separate doc teams for dapper in the end, once the book is "opened up"
[07:30] <rob> seems like a waste to me
[07:30] <jsgotangco> :) its too late to rant rob
[07:31] <LaserJock> because the publisher approached authors, and when it is done we can use it so it so I don't see the two doc teams then
[07:31] <rob> jsgotangco, we never had the chance..
[07:31] <rob> LaserJock, right, hence there has been a lot of time wasted on both sides of the fence
[07:31] <rob> duplicating effort
[07:31] <Burgundavia> rob, prentice hall approached canonical who suggested authors, which included me
[07:32] <Burgundavia> prentice hall is taking a large risk by doing this
[07:32] <LaserJock> rob: perhaps, but it is going to be a whole lot less than normally published books
[07:32] <Burgundavia> be happy they decided to take the risk
[07:32] <LaserJock> it is amazing that it will have a compatible license that will allow us to use the material
[07:32] <Burgundavia> yes it is not optimal, but still
[07:32] <rob> I'm not worried at all about prentice hall, they are a business and are free to do what they want
[07:33] <rob> I think the doc team got screwed in all of this
[07:33] <Burgundavia> rob, that is a very negative attitude
[07:33] <Burgundavia> would you rather we got no book?
[07:33] <rob> Burgundavia, easy for you to say
[07:33] <LaserJock> prentice hall didn't ask the doc team, it is really that simple
[07:33] <Burgundavia> why? because I wrote part of it?
[07:33] <rob> I don't really care if we didn't, eventually we would anyway
[07:34] <Burgundavia> writing a book is very hard
[07:34] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:34] <Burgundavia> ask any of myself, jsgotangco, mgalvin, jeffsch
[07:34] <rob> if I had docbook xml versions of both the book and the desktop guide I could mix and match with them almost without care
[07:35] <rob> its a duplication of effort, which is just silly
[07:35] <Burgundavia> I would say it is an order of magnitude harder than docs, due to all the careful checking you have to do
[07:35] <Burgundavia> you have the words, turning them into XML is not hard
[07:35] <jsgotangco> external reviewers can be really harsh sometimes
[07:35] <jsgotangco> but then they are paid to do it
[07:35] <Burgundavia> they were pretty kind to me
[07:35] <rob> Burgundavia, that's crud, if the Desktop Guide was published properly it would go though the same checking, thats why you have editors who proof read etc
[07:36] <Burgundavia> the desktop guide would need major expansion
[07:36] <jsgotangco> yeah
[07:36] <jsgotangco> i agree on that
[07:36] <rob> sigh, thanks for the screw job guys
[07:36] <Burgundavia> there was no screw job
[07:37] <jsgotangco> rob, this is nothing personal but you've been trolling for quite some time now
[07:37] <LaserJock> and nobody here was doing it even if there was, that would be Prentice Hall and they actually are doing a lot less "screwing" than other publishers would
[07:37] <rob> jsgotangco, because I haven't been happy about the arrangement from the get go, the doc team was never consulted regarding this book
[07:37] <Burgundavia> because sometimes you need to get things done
[07:37] <rob> to me, thats just plain rude and inconsiderate
[07:38] <Burgundavia> look at the art team
[07:38] <Burgundavia> or for that matter, the lulu matter
[07:38] <rob> lulu != publishing an official book
[07:38] <LaserJock> rob: I had the same concerns but I have seen where 2 doc team members were authors and it was review by other doc team members
[07:38] <jsgotangco> i was asked to review it but i declined
[07:38] <LaserJock> I don't think we got "screwed"
[07:39] <Burgundavia> rob, I was more referring to the discussion over it
[07:39] <jsgotangco> we've discussed this matter before
[07:39] <jsgotangco> although none came out of it
[07:39] <LaserJock> rob: just because the publisher doesn't want their work-in-progress spread all over public forums and you and I weren't involved doesn't mean the doc team got screwed, really
[07:40] <rob> all it would have taken is for someone to officially approach the entire doc team and offer the chance to participate
[07:40] <mgalvin> i can certainly say there was not screwing involved, and yes, publishing a real book is magnitudes harder than doc team work
[07:41] <rob> even if most of us would have turned it down, the consideration and respect would have been nice
[07:41] <mgalvin> the truth of the matter is publishers are in it for the business and its not a very public matter until it is done
[07:41] <jsgotangco> we even tried to do the docbook route but it was counter-productive 
[07:41] <Burgundavia> rob, then who do you approach?
[07:41] <dsas> jsgotangco: Out of interest, what did you write the book in?
[07:42] <rob> it doesn't have to be public, you guys left out several more active members of the doc team writing the docs
[07:42] <jsgotangco> dsas: im writing for another publisher along with mgalvin and jeffsch
[07:42] <Burgundavia> dsas, the official book was written in OpenOffice, with word templates
[07:42] <LaserJock> rob: who?
[07:42] <jsgotangco> dsas: sorry errr
[07:42] <jsgotangco> dsas: openoffice
[07:42] <rob> Burgundavia, an email to the list would have sufficed
[07:42] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco's book is written in docbook in svn, if I remember correctly
[07:42] <jsgotangco> dsas: the word templates are a necessary evil to publishing
[07:42] <ghee22> question:  do you guys have a separate email address for the mailing lists?
[07:42] <Burgundavia> what could we do?
[07:42] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: we ditched the docbook but still use svn
[07:43] <LaserJock> ghee22: how do you mean?
[07:43] <Burgundavia> wait on the official book to deliver?
[07:43] <dsas> ah ok, I'd heard that some writers for other oss projects were made to use word by their publishers. Just curious.
[07:43] <jsgotangco> dsas: yes that's correct
[07:43] <jsgotangco> dsas: because the templates are then passed to framemaker
[07:43] <LaserJock> dsas: all my real life writing is done in LaTeX
[07:43] <Madpilot> ghee22, not personally, I use my main personal address for everything
[07:43] <jsgotangco> even o'reiley does that if you look at their colophon
[07:44] <ghee22> madpilot:  ok thanks.
[07:44] <jsgotangco> the layout people are probably the final frontier for full open source publishing
[07:44] <mgalvin> rob: you were involved as i remember so i don't understand why you feel so left out (early on as a matter of fact)
[07:45] <ghee22> laserjock:  I mean have a special email address for just these ubuntu mailing lists
[07:45] <rob> mgalvin, no I wasn't
[07:45] <mgalvin> i have your review email of the ToC
[07:45] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, lots of brand loyalty in the graphics community, mostly to Adobe ;)
[07:45] <jsgotangco> yep
[07:45] <jsgotangco> we can't address that yet
[07:46] <jsgotangco> its pretty much de facto
[07:49] <Burgundavia> well, I need to go on a munchie run
[07:49] <Burgundavia> back in a bit
[07:50] <jsgotangco> brb going to concentrate further
[08:47] <poningru> Madpilot: s/adobe/macrodobe
[08:47] <jsgotangco> lol
[08:47] <Madpilot> good point
[08:47] <Madpilot> ;)
[08:48] <poningru> :)
[08:48] <poningru> quick question anyone know who evan dandrea is on irc?
[08:48] <poningru> I wanted to get involved in his/her soc project
[08:49] <ajmitch> what soc project is that one?
[08:49] <poningru> the migration one
[08:50] <ajmitch> that tells me nothing
[08:50] <poningru> err hold on
[08:50] <dsas> poningru: have you tried asking in #soc or something?
[08:51] <dsas> i'm not sure if that's the correct channel name, but there is one
[08:51] <dsas> ajmitch: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigrationAssistance
[08:51] <poningru> yeah thats it
[08:51] <Burgundavia> #soc is a gimp.net thing
[08:52] <poningru> also
[08:52] <poningru> http://riva.ucam.org/~cjwatson/blog/2006/05/26#2006-05-25-gsoc-ubiquity-migration-started
[08:53] <ajmitch> could be useful
[08:53] <poningru> #soc seems to be registered by cc people
[08:55] <ajmitch> aw, mithrandir hasn't blogged about mentoring me yet ;)
[08:56] <poningru> watchu workin on?
[08:56] <ajmitch> network auth
[08:56] <ajmitch> of course he doesn't exactly have much to write about
[08:58] <poningru> network auth? link?
[08:58] <ajmitch> NetworkAuthentication on wiki
[08:58] <mgalvin> night all
[08:59] <ajmitch> will update it soon with info about the server side of things
[09:01] <poningru> ah nice
[09:01] <poningru> yeah I would love to get involved in that... there is a argument at my uni regarding AD vs. ldap/kereberos
[09:01] <poningru> etc.
[09:02] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, what are the rules this year with regards to other people helping you?
[09:02] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: I'll have to check
[09:03] <poningru> wait what does that mean?
[09:03] <ajmitch> we're meant to do our own work
[09:03] <poningru> ouch
[09:03] <ajmitch> but it's hard not to work with others 
[10:09] <Laser_away> mdke: ping?
[10:09] <Laser_away> mdke: I made an improved python script, I will commit translated .desktop files tomorrow
[10:19] <jsgotangco> hmm why is there 4 kinds of gstreamer-ugly
[10:19] <Madpilot> too much ugly for one package?
[10:20] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, should only be two multiverse and universe
[10:20] <Burgundavia> anybody know where I can find an 80x15 free software button?
[10:21] <jsgotangco> ahh its doc and for gdb
[10:21] <Madpilot> there are several 80x15 images generators on the web, if you can't find a ready made one
[10:21] <jsgotangco> what's the multiverse variant?
[10:21] <Burgundavia> -multiverse
[10:21] <jsgotangco> yes i mean what's the difference between -ugly
[10:22] <Burgundavia> there should be -ugly and -ugly-multiverse
[10:23] <jsgotangco> err yes what i mean exactly is what does -ugly-multiverse have that -ugly doesn't
[10:23] <Burgundavia> ah, more codecs that cannot be shipped as part of unvierse
[10:24] <Burgundavia> you would have to ask slomo for the exact breakdown
[10:24] <Burgundavia> there are basically no docs on this, quite annoying
[10:24] <jsgotangco> i only see gstlame
[10:27] <Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
[10:29] <Burgundavia> you know, I could kiss Scott Robinson right now
[10:31] <ajmitch> heh
[10:31] <ajmitch> surely UI freeze doesn't matter up until the minute before release?
[10:31] <ajmitch> great, launchpad is dead. again
[10:32] <Burgundavia> right
[10:32] <Burgundavia> so much for Mark's word at UBZ
[10:37] <Burgundavia> night all
[10:56] <dsas> the IdeaPool wiki page is just so frustrating, half of it is misplaced bug reports, some of the reset are dupes, and there's no way of 'replying' to people who's filed an idea.
[10:56] <Madpilot> there's probably some actual good ideas buried in there somewhere, but good luck finding them...
[10:58] <dsas> Probably, there is. I may just delete all the ones that I know have bugs filed.
[10:58] <dsas> people try to use it for a discussion too - see the viruses bit.
[11:08] <dsas> heh, or I would but I forgot about the LP problems.
[11:09] <ajmitch> sometimes a wiki page is just the worst place for that sort of thing
[11:22] <Madpilot> s/sometimes/usually. Even Mediawiki's Discuss pages get messy
[12:54] <mdke> Laser_away: thanks so much!
[01:31] <glatzor> hi mdke. you plan to update the translations of the manuals on http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ although we are already after the docu translation freeze?
[01:33] <mdke> glatzor: The freeze applies to the release. After the release I hope to be updating the translation of the packages and the website at the same time
[01:34] <glatzor> mdke: in which time frame? I have to plan my commitments for the next days :)
[01:35] <mdke> glatzor: I don't really know. Probably 2 weeks after release? after that maybe monthly?
[01:36] <glatzor> ok. so no urgent task for me:)
[01:36] <mdke> glatzor: ok. Does that sound sensible to you?
[01:38] <glatzor> mdke: I don't know how many translated strings are waiting in rosetta.
[01:38] <mdke> nor do I
[01:38] <mdke> I took them last week
[01:40] <glatzor> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/desktopguide
[01:41] <glatzor> looks good. many are completely translated now.
[01:41] <mdke> yep, kubuntu needs some love though
[01:41] <mdke> and xubuntu
[02:31] <jsgotangco> ciao have a good weekend all
[02:44] <glatzor> mdke: is there a way to create a local html or pdf version of a translated documentation? it would make reviewing a lot easier.
[02:48] <mdke> glatzor: from the po file, or the xml file?
[02:48] <glatzor> po file
[02:48] <mdke> glatzor: you have to convert it into the separate xml files using the english version. See translate.sh in our repo
[02:49] <glatzor> mdke: where can I find your repo?
[02:49] <glatzor> you are using po2xml?
[02:50] <mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
[02:50] <mdke> no, we use xml2po
[02:50] <mdke> :)
[02:50] <glatzor> :)
[02:51] <mdke> so for example, this one is for the ubuntu desktop guide: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper/ubuntu/desktopguide/translate.sh
[02:51] <glatzor> thanks
[02:51] <glatzor> still on svn? :)
[02:51] <mdke> looks like it
[02:52] <mdke> Powered by Subversion version 1.2.0 (r14790).
[02:52] <glatzor> you should use bzr :)
[02:53] <mdke> glatzor: we've been discussing it quite a lot. So far I don't think we've found a good reason to use it
[03:16] <glatzor> mdke: may I ask you why you don't use <guibutton> or <guilabel> instead of <filename> in the desktop guide?
[03:17] <mdke> glatzor: we use all of those. If there is a specific example where it is used wrongly, that is accidental
[03:17] <glatzor> "Optionsthatyouclick,select,orchooseinauserinterfacewillbeshown
[03:17] <glatzor> in<filename>monospace</filename>type."
[03:17] <glatzor> it's in the conventions chapter
[03:17] <mdke> that is certainly wrong
[03:21] <glatzor> is there a product in launchpad for the guides?
[03:21] <mdke> yes, ubuntu-doc
[03:22] <glatzor> I am going to fill a bug
[03:22] <glatzor> report
[03:23] <mdke> thanks
[03:23] <mdke> it is present in every guide we have
[03:30] <glatzor> mdke: do you use the gnome doc style guide as a reference?
[03:42] <mdke> glatzor: roughly, we have our own styleguide though.
[04:02] <glatzor> mdke: a public one? where can i find it?
[04:03] <mdke> glatzor: http://doc.ubuntu.com
[04:44] <sto6ma9ch> Hi! I'd like to help out the DocTeam, but I'm not too sure where to start. I saw that some work needed to be done on firewall configurations.
[04:48] <glatzor> sto6ma9ch: hi. what do you want to contribute? you already have got a vague idea?
[04:49] <sto6ma9ch> I'd like to help in the server area, but right now I'm just trying to see what really needs to be done. I have started learning the XML layout by examining the current svn stuff.
[05:39] <sto6ma9ch> Does anybody have a suggestion regarding on what project to start?
[05:40] <mdke> hi sto6ma9ch 
[05:40] <mdke> we're in a bit of a limbo state right now, because we're just coming to the end of a release cycle
[05:40] <mdke> we need to sort out our plans and ideas for the next release, then work can begin
[05:41] <jsgotangco> hey
[05:42] <sto6ma9ch> Ah, makes sense.
[05:42] <mdke> sto6ma9ch: the server guide is certainly going to need lots of work, but we need to focus on how to go about it first
[05:42] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[05:42] <jsgotangco> mdke: yup i agree
[05:43] <sto6ma9ch> Are there any RSS feeds for Ubuntu DocTeam news or is the mailing list the preferred method of staying in touch?
[05:43] <mdke> yep, mailing list
[05:51] <sto6ma9ch> Sorry about all of the questions: when is the next meeting? The Wiki shows it as March 31.
[05:52] <jsgotangco> we haven't been meeting much lately when the freeze started
[05:59] <Laser_away> mdke: ping
[06:04] <mdke> Laser_away: hello
[06:05] <Laser_away> mdke: is there a rush on the .desktop files?
[06:06] <Laser_away> I almost have a script that will update .desktops with the translated strings
[06:06] <mdke> Laser_away: the sooner we have them, the more chance of getting them into dapper I suppose
[06:06] <Laser_away> but I need tor drive to my Grandpa's this morning before I can finish it. It should be done in less then 5-6 hrs I'd guess
[06:07] <Laser_away> ist that ok?
[06:07] <mdke> Laser_away: of course! You're doing the kde users a big favour :)
[06:12] <jsgotangco> you probably got 2 days till the image is frozen
[06:13] <Laser_away> alright, I'm about to dive over (2hrs, \o/), I'll see you guys later
[06:14] <Laser_away> *drive :-)
[06:14] <mdke> cya matey
[06:14] <mdke> thanks again
[06:28] <glatzor> mdke: hm. the german translation of the desktop guide is in a quite questionable state. so i would like to see updates as soon as possible.
[06:34] <Laser_away> mdke: what time is it there?
[06:36] <Laser_away> mdke: nvm, google will know :-)
[06:59] <sto6ma9ch> Anybody use an SVN GUI? Any recommendations?
[07:01] <jsgotangco> esvn
[11:35] <mdke> wtf
[11:35] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowTo
[11:36] <crimsun> mdke: ?
[11:36] <mdke> i find that an odd page
[11:36] <crimsun> it's fairly self-explanatory to those of us in the know, yes, but I don't see anything "wrong" per se with it
[11:38] <mdke> there should be no such thing as a howto, IMO
[11:38] <crimsun> ok, what's your rationale/approach?
[11:40] <mdke> whenever I see a site which structures its documents according to how long they are, I know that I'm not going to be able to find what I'm looking for
[11:40] <mdke>  * Howtos
[11:40] <mdke>  * Tips and Tricks
[11:40] <mdke>  * Manuals
[11:40] <mdke> it's all information, and should be structured according to subject matter
[11:41] <mdke> there's no rational dividing line between them anyhow
[11:41] <crimsun> ok, I can see that. Would you drop the Howto moniker from wiki pages, then?
[11:41] <mdke> absolutely
[11:41] <mdke> it doesn't add anything
[11:42] <crimsun> ok, I can see that, too
[11:42] <mdke> I've got to "H" in my survey of documents in the wiki, so it's hurting
[11:43] <crimsun> well, one of the problems is that people normally look to best practices, which currently stands at using said moniker
[11:44] <mdke> does it say that?
[11:44] <crimsun> I'm drawing from online documentation, the vast majority of which has some blather of Howtos
[11:45] <mdke> ah yeah
[11:47] <mdke> this is an awesome page name
[11:47] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InputMethods/SCIM/CJK_Chinese_Japanese_Korean_Input_Method_configuration_using_SCIM_in_Ubuntu_6%2e06_Dapper_Drake?highlight=%28CategoryDocumentation%29
[11:48] <crimsun> wow, that makes my eyes bleed ;-)
[11:58] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:01] <mdke> ok, I just noticed there are 6 or so guides to xgl
[12:01] <mdke> so I went into #ubuntu-xgl and asked if they'd be interested in working on them to merge/integrate them
[12:01] <mdke> so they promptly suggested starting another wiki at compiz.net and writing a new guide
[12:01] <mdke> my god
[12:05] <crimsun> so mdke, why don't you write a howto for cleaning up the wiki?
[12:05] <mdke> yeah
[12:10] <mdke> ok, they are listening to reason
[12:10] <mdke> phew