[12:12] <LaserJock> they really wanted to start a different wiki?
[12:14] <Burgundavia> who, what?
[12:15] <mdke> no worries
[12:15] <mdke> Burgundavia: we need to think about the Bugs wiki pages
[12:15] <mdke> in terms of the move
[12:15] <Burgundavia> ah, ok
[12:15] <Burgundavia> hmm, another tricky one
[12:16] <mdke> it's the sort of thing that should probably be in both
[12:17] <Burgundavia> yucky
[12:49] <mdke> Burgundavia: so you disagree with that then. What do you think?
[12:50] <Burgundavia> mdke, no, I don't necessarily disagree, I just think we need a elegant solution
[12:50] <Burgundavia> what about this split?
[12:50] <mdke> don't forget it's easy to link/redirect between the two
[12:50] <Burgundavia> ReportingBugs goes the doc wiki and HelpingWithBugs goes on the main one
[12:51] <mdke> and Bugs?
[12:51] <Burgundavia> that page is currently just two links, so it can exist on both
[12:52] <mdke> yeah, that seems a rational split
[12:54] <Burgundavia> hmm, something is wrong
[12:54] <Burgundavia> it only took me about 20minutes to clear out my inbox this morning
[12:56] <mdke> Burgundavia: will you do the appropriate categorising?
[12:57] <Burgundavia> sure, can do right now
[12:57] <Burgundavia> so drop cat doc from the helping ones?
[12:57] <mdke> sounds good to me
[12:57] <mdke> we'll have to correct some links on the ones which move and make them interwiki links, I guess
[12:59] <Burgundavia> none of the helpingwithbugs pages are cat doc
[12:59] <Burgundavia> however, they are all under Bugs but I don;t want to move them, due to large numbers of external links
[01:01] <mdke> only Bugs and Bugs/FindRightPackage are Cat doc
[01:01] <Burgundavia> hmm, that last one is a tough ne
[01:01] <Burgundavia> because arguably it is both
[01:02] <mdke> lets keep all bugs on the main wiki, shall we? Then we can create appropriate links to it from the new one maybe
[01:02] <Burgundavia> sure
[01:03] <mdke> ok
[01:08] <Burgundavia> you know, I think the art team spends more time shuffling their wiki pages than actually creating art
[01:08] <mdke> yeah, they are struglging
[01:08] <Burgundavia> they need to shed some people, like we did
[01:08] <mdke> I was thinking that they could do with a limited access repository
[01:09] <mdke> it's a bit of a free-for-all AFAICS
[01:10] <Burgundavia> http://24.69.71.211/ <-- any comments?
[01:10] <mdke> include the "Ubuntu Canada" in the logo image, so it loads at the same time
[01:11] <mdke> give a bit more vertical space to the headings 
[01:11] <mdke> looks nice
[01:11] <Burgundavia> ok, I will have my css boy do that
[01:11] <mdke> the page width is rather odd
[01:11] <Burgundavia> in what way?
[01:11] <Burgundavia> the css is pretty hacky at the moment
[01:12] <mdke> yeah
[01:12] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/canada.png
[01:13] <Burgundavia> hmm, we add some horizontal space, but i will look at that, or rather Madpilot will
[01:18] <mdke> website looks nice
[01:19] <DBO> hey mdke, working on your project, there are several ways to install compiz, listing them all could get tedius and confusing for users, can I pick the most common ones?
[01:20] <mdke> DBO: I'd suggest you pick the best ones, and say why they are the best. If others have different advantages, maybe list them as alternatives. What do you think?
[01:20] <Burgundavia> DBO, is there one that is clearly better than the others?
[01:20] <DBO> they each have up sides and down sides
[01:20] <DBO> its not a matter of better, Xgl is too alpha...
[01:21] <DBO> Not too mention we have AIGLX complicating the whole mess that is FAR too popular to ignore, which messes up the whol install framework =P  You will see
[01:21] <DBO> seperating the install of compiz from the install of Xgl is the main issue I guess... most people do it together, but because of AIGLX, doing it seperate (though longer) makes a more uniform framework
[01:22] <mdke> sounds sensible
[01:23] <Burgundavia> DBO, where is xgl and aiglx being developed now?
[01:24] <DBO> Burgundavia, thats one major problem... very seperately...
[01:24] <DBO> Xgl is at Novell, developed behind mostly closed doors...
[01:24] <Burgundavia> hmm, icky
[01:24] <DBO> AIGLX is developed by the fedora project
[01:24] <DBO> and Compiz is a love child of the two
[01:25] <DBO> AIGLX supports mostly open drivers, Xgl closed drivers
[01:25] <DBO> both run Compiz
[01:25] <DBO> (well, a hacked compiz anyhow)
[01:25] <Burgundavia> xgl is still being developed behind closed doors? It thought they were working on it now in the open
[01:25] <DBO> mmhmmm...
[01:25] <DBO> yes its open per say... but there is very little code sharing right now... so it makes almost no difference
[01:26] <DBO> too much was done before it was opened
[01:37] <DBO> hmmm, how do I make the wiki link itself without feeding full links?
[01:38] <Burgundavia> DBO, just camel case it or ["Blahlink"] 
[01:38] <Burgundavia> yes, moin sucks
[01:38] <DBO> thanks Burgundavia 
[01:39] <DBO> mdke, currently there is no AIGLX page, but it should be added, so I just made an under construction page for it
[01:39] <Burgundavia> DBO, the big thing you can do is to merge all the bloody xgl pages into just one or two
[01:39] <mdke> DBO: are you using subpages of Composite?
[01:40] <DBO> mdke, doing Composite Manger (just setting it up)
[01:40] <mdke> and using a subpage for AIGLX?
[01:40] <DBO> mdke, you got it
[01:40] <mdke> ok, sounds reasonable
[01:41] <DBO> mdke, there is a master page that links to an Xgl install, an AIGLX install (only do one), Compiz install, and configuring Compiz
[01:41] <DBO> since these are each different subjects and change on their own, plus different composite managers will come out (and are planned)
[01:41] <mdke> ok. Just make sure you're not adding to the endless number of Xgl pages, but consolidating them :)
[01:42] <DBO> Im trying to give you a modular format that you can plug any new things into without re-inventing the wheel...
[01:42] <mdke> yeah, the structure sounds reasonable
[01:55] <mdke> DBO: can you rename the page CompositeManager?
[01:55] <mdke> DBO: and the subpages should be CompositeManager/SubPage
[01:55] <DBO> mdke... uhhhh... Im sure I can figure that out, I havent really done any work on that page yet
[01:55] <mdke> note the slash, otherwise they won't be subpages
[01:56] <DBO> mmmm... ok
[01:59] <DBO> what is the proper method to link sub pages?
[02:00] <mdke> DBO: if the subpage has a WikiName, just writing the name of the page should be enough
[02:00] <DBO> roger
[02:00] <mdke> otherwise, ["Parent/Subpage"]  should work
[02:00] <mdke> or something
[02:01] <mdke> a nice way to make links is: [:Parent/Subpage:link text] 
[02:01] <mdke> np, just get the page names right and people will help tidy up the links
[02:06] <DBO> would be handy if I could type...
[02:13] <DBO> mdke, ok, excluding a couple minor things here an there (an out of control TOC and a couple broken links Im fixing) it is more or less done...
[02:14] <mdke> cool
[02:15] <Burgundavia> DBO, btw, I love that we have somebody working on this
[02:15] <Burgundavia> now we just need somebody with a wacom...
[02:15] <DBO> Im just a monkey
[02:15] <DBO> do we have a writer grammar nazi person?
[02:16] <mdke> we'll review the pages, for sure
[02:16] <mdke> is everything from those other pages incorporated now?
[02:17] <DBO> Well I might add things as I find them, but the general insanity is intact
[02:17] <DBO> I had to change the install vector a bit, so it would be best to get a guinee pig in...
[02:18] <DBO> (I will personally oversee any failure of his machine if something goes wrong)
[02:18] <ghee22> hey does anyone have free time to kill?  isn't that the reason we're here?  :o)   I have a request that someone check out a very rough draft of Ubuntu Welcome center for comments on menu structuring.  You can see it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center under the design category
[02:18] <mdke> DBO: how about naming the subpages like this: InstallingCompiz, ConfiguringCompiz?
[02:19] <mdke> a bit more natural
[02:19] <DBO> because that requires editing the links you bum!  (fine fine)
[02:20] <mdke> ghee22: the use cases are a bit dubious. Why is Ubuntu Welcome Center more effective than simply the Help System?
[02:20] <mdke> it seems to me that the help system can respond 100% to that spec
[02:20] <Burgundavia> mdke, were you here yesteday? we were discussing this in depth
[02:21] <mdke> i didn't see that no
[02:21] <mdke> who should I look for in the backlog?
[02:22] <mdke> ah i see it
[02:22] <ghee22> mdke:  hmm... good question.. what's the primary difference between both.  I think help is for specific problems.  the welcome center should be a holding hand for a new user and asks questions before they are asked.
[02:23] <mdke> it seems to me that as the spec currently stands, you are going to be duplicating the help center quite a lot. Our guides are not at all limited to specific problems
[02:23] <mdke> maybe you could just work on making the help system better
[02:24] <DBO> mdke, ok, general insanity is all there, your new names are there...
[02:24] <ghee22> mdke: unfortunately, I cannot change my project.  I was assigned this task per Google's SoC 2006.  If you feel the welcome center should be different, then please suggest away!
[02:27] <mdke> ghee22: well you definitely need to define your use cases a bit more. At the moment they are both already arguably solved by the help system. It seems to me that "Work on making the help system user friendly, and then start it up on first boot" completes the spec
[02:27] <Burgundavia> mdke, hmm, somebody working on yelp. That would be nice
[02:27] <mdke> I haven't caught up on your discussion yesterday though really, so i dunno what others think
[02:28] <mdke> Burgundavia: well, not necessarily on yelp itself, just on how we present the documentation. That spec is basically HelpfulHelp with a "first-boot" tacked on, afaics
[02:28] <Burgundavia> yep
[02:28] <mdke> and videos, and screenshots
[02:29] <Burgundavia> the mentor sfflaw, you really knows nothing about this, so I think we need to take the lead and figure out what we need
[02:29] <mdke> ghee22: in any case, I'm really glad you've come around here, because we need to work together to ensure that we're not going to be working on the same thing twice for the next release
[02:29] <LaserJock> mdke: what are we going to do about the serverguide on server installs
[02:30] <mdke> LaserJock: for dapper, it won't be installed
[02:30] <mdke> LaserJock: do you know how that /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/html link came about?
[02:30] <ghee22> mdke:  you can thank burgandavia, I was just wandering the development forums
[02:31] <mdke> thanks Burgundavia 
[02:31] <LaserJock> mdke: not sure
[02:34] <DBO> ok, i did my good deed, shouldnt we credit the original author btw?
[02:35] <mdke> DBO: wiki pages are generally made by loads of different people
[02:35] <DBO> mdke, ookie dokie
[02:35] <mdke> DBO: thanks for your work, I'll check out the pages tomorrow
[02:35] <DBO> mdke, ok sounds good
[02:36] <LaserJock> mdke: doh, don't read the book rant backlog :)
[02:36] <mdke> LaserJock: too late
[02:37] <mdke> i know that rob trolls about this, but I understand part of where he is coming from. The book wasn't handled well
[02:37] <ghee22> mdke:  have you seen the Tour Windows XP program?  It's under Start, Accessories if you have Windows XP.  It's design is very different from how Help is.  Although content is similar, Welcome Center answers most frequently asked questions to new users.  These questions are not like, "my printer won't print", but much more general such as, "I've installed Ubuntu, how do I write up a report?"  What do you think?
[02:37] <mdke> LaserJock: it could be this: links:usr/share/ubuntu-docs/html/ usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/html
[02:38] <mdke> ;)
[02:39] <mdke> ghee22: yeah, I don't like the XP tour. But I still think that help should answer most frequently asked questions to new users, and do it in a way which is well structured so that the user can immediately see where to find out different things
[02:39] <mdke> ghee22: it's a very complicated question though... i need to think about it :)
[02:40] <LaserJock> mdke: doh
[02:40] <mdke> LaserJock: what do you think one does about something like bug #47016? It is so trivial that it can't possibly justify an upload. Shall we fix it in our repository anyway?
[02:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47016 in ubuntu-docs "Dapper RC's Ubuntu-docs package html softlink has missing target." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47016
[02:42] <ghee22> mdke:  ok, I see.  may I ask who you are?  I appreciate everyone's advice, since I'm new here, I like to know how much weight should be given to each person's comments.  Also, take your time, I really do appreciate even you listening.  If you see a better way to structure this, than by all means I'm all ears like corn
[02:42] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, fix it and perhaps make a not somewhere (maybe start a new changelog entry) so that it is noted
[02:42] <LaserJock> s/not/note/
[02:42] <mdke> ghee22: my name is Matthew East (you can find out for everyone by typing /whois nickname )
[02:43] <LaserJock> ghee22: mdke is basically the doc team leader and is one heck of a guy :-)
[02:43] <LaserJock> lol
[02:44] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah, I'll make a changelog entry, I'll bump the version number up to 6.06.1 too, is that right? (we're currently still on 6.05.6)
[02:45] <LaserJock> yeah, make sure to but something like (Closes: Malone #47016)
[02:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47016 in ubuntu-docs "Dapper RC's Ubuntu-docs package html softlink has missing target." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47016
[02:45] <ghee22> yes I now remember your name mdke, seen in many places on ubuntu site
[02:46] <mdke> pleased to meet you
[02:46] <ghee22> and I, you.  I shall prove myself worthy.
[02:46] <mdke> eh
[02:47] <mdke> you don't need to do that
[02:47] <ghee22> ok
[02:48] <ghee22> so, just so you know, I'm working with Simon Law as my mentor.  He's been especially busy with Dapper release so I've had no contact with him.  Do you work with him at all?
[02:48] <mdke> ghee22: no, he is the new Bug quality assurance guy
[02:48] <mdke> seems nice
[02:48] <Burgundavia> he is quite nice and lives in Montreal
[02:49] <Burgundavia> but yes, he is crazy busy
[02:49] <mdke> not sure why he was chosen though
[02:49] <Burgundavia> so realistically I think you can consider us your mentors
[02:49] <mdke> yet again though, it would have been nice if the docteam had been consulted about specs like that before making decisions about SoC
[02:49] <ghee22> mdke:  I see.  I wonder why I was given him as a mentor, rather than a doc duede
[02:49] <mdke> ghee22: yeah, I'm going to ask.
[02:49] <mdke> anyway, we can all work together anyhow
[02:50] <Burgundavia> ghee22, I suspect because he is a canonical employee and thus is going to be around, mostly guarenteed
[02:51] <Burgundavia> mdke, that is a good thing
[02:52] <ghee22> yes, I agree.  which is why I'm here.  Ok, great.  I'm gonna continue filling out more "marketing speak" for each category.  If anyone sees a major problem with the way I've laid out the menu structure, please let me know ASAP. this is because I'm already writing details for each category and major change in structure will make this work fruitless.  I really appreciate anyone's help, and will one day give you a six pack to prove it.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> ghee22, is that that freemind thing?
[02:52] <ghee22> yes, I've also exported to svg.  in anticipation of allergy season
[02:53] <mdke> Burgundavia: well, I'm not sure. Someone pointed out to me recently that the whole point of setting up the ubuntu foundation was to recognise that there are potential conflicts of interest between canonical and ubuntu development, and to ensure that ubuntu development was separated from canonical's commercial projects. But it seems to me that things have gone in the opposite direction
[02:53] <Burgundavia> mdke, I don't see an issue
[02:53] <Burgundavia> the ubuntu foundation is now mostly dormant. The money is a lifeboat now
[02:54] <mdke> yeah, but it wasn't announced like that
[02:54] <Burgundavia> no, it wasn't
[02:54] <mdke> Burgundavia: i checked the announcement, it was
[02:54] <mdke> "It's important for us to distinguish the philanthropic and non-commercial work that is at the heart of the Ubuntu project, from the commercial support and certification programs that are the focus of Canonical Ltd." said Mark Shuttleworth
[02:55] <Burgundavia> yep
[02:55] <Burgundavia> currently I haven't seen any conflict
[02:55] <mdke> I didn't think there was an issue either
[02:55] <mdke> but recently it has started to play on my mind
[02:55] <Burgundavia> there are too many smart people at canonical for that too happen
[02:56] <Burgundavia> the only thing I can possibly see as canonical overriding the community would be with LP
[02:56] <mdke> I had to push quite hard to ensure that the word "Commercial" got into the link to marketplace in the help menu
[02:56] <Burgundavia> it is not clear to me that LP, specifically malone, has been a win
[02:56] <mdke> and there is LP too
[02:56] <mdke> and the Book being pushed into the help menu
[02:56] <Burgundavia> I don't that is a canonical thing
[02:56] <Burgundavia> that is a Mark thing
[02:57] <mdke> could be
[02:57] <Burgundavia> in fact, I suspect LP was a mark thing too
[02:57] <mdke> but don't forget, that Mark is the boss of Canonical
[02:57] <Burgundavia> yes, I think it is key to seperate Mark things from Canonical things
[02:57] <mdke> anyhow, you're right, so far no problem
[02:57] <mdke> but that passage I quoted has certainly not been implemented
[02:57] <Burgundavia> because Mark does crazy shit seperate from Canonical
[02:58] <Burgundavia> I had a good chat with mako and jdub about the foundation one day and learned about the strategic refocus
[02:58] <Burgundavia> look how fedora did the same thing
[02:58] <mdke> hmm?
[02:58] <Burgundavia> ghee22, to get your some feedback
[02:58] <Burgundavia> ghee22, I don't see logic to the organization
[02:59] <Burgundavia> for me, the menu should mirror the real one, with an addition for community
[02:59] <ghee22> burgundavia: I'm listening
[02:59] <LaserJock> mdke: I've seen development from a few sides now and I have my concerns as well
[02:59] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah, it's just something that has played on my mind a bit recently, nothing particularly significant
[02:59] <Burgundavia> the one place I can see Caonical interfering into Ubuntu development is with suport contracts
[03:00] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think the Edubuntu backgound is an example
[03:00] <mdke> an example is that the Ubuntu website advertises for employees to work on canonical, including non-Ubuntu projects
[03:00] <Burgundavia> but I have not yet found a place where it makes sense where screwing Ubuntu help Canonical
[03:00] <ghee22> ahhh, so menu should be: Accessories, Games, Internet, Office, Sound & Video
[03:00] <Burgundavia> ghee22, you can probably drop accessories, given there is nothing to talk about
[03:01] <ghee22> yes, but if we drop accessories, we are not mirroring it anymore.
[03:01] <Burgundavia> IE: if you need to talk about something, it should be in the same order as the menus
[03:01] <ghee22> which is the same as my menu is right now... not mirroring
[03:01] <Burgundavia> yep, not mirroring, but following
[03:01] <Burgundavia> bad choice of words on my part
[03:02] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, mdke I think this next year is critical, because this is when the big support contracts are going to start rolling in
[03:02] <Burgundavia> we will start seeing if there is a conflict
[03:02] <ghee22> it's ok, I'm quite literal at times.  not all the time but when it comes to work stuff, I try to stay literal since it's already difficult enough to use words to describe what I'm thinking
[03:03] <mdke> LaserJock: what happened with the edubuntu background?
[03:04] <LaserJock> mdke: Canonical forced the new background even the though the community and even ogra and JaneW didn't want it
[03:04] <mdke> why?
[03:04] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, what background was this
[03:04] <Burgundavia> ?
[03:04] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: the new chalkboard background
[03:04] <mdke> Burgundavia: anyway, you agree now that the foundation was announced as separating Canonical's commercial interests from Ubuntu development?
[03:04] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes it was, much like the Fedora one was
[03:05] <mdke> Burgundavia: right (you said earlier that it wasn't). And do you agree that that hasn't happened?
[03:05] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, tbh, the other background was much too busy. I would have voted for the chalkboard merely on that
[03:05] <LaserJock> mdke: Canonical payed an outside company to do the background, and in the end we had a much better community done one but it is not default because of a Canonical decision
[03:05] <mdke> that sucks
[03:05] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, do we even have an svg of that background?
[03:06] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: perhaps but ogra, JaneW, highvoltage were all against it, which means a lot to me
[03:06] <Burgundavia> also, remember that the art situation has been a mess
[03:06] <LaserJock> I agree
[03:06] <Burgundavia> and looks matter
[03:06] <LaserJock> I hope Canonical and the Ubuntu learn from the Dapper artwork situation
[03:07] <mdke> LaserJock: they never learn, it's always last minute crack
[03:07] <Burgundavia> what the artwork team needs to strong community leadership, much like we have
[03:07] <Burgundavia> mdke, nobody has ever enforced a deadline on them
[03:07] <mdke> Burgundavia: it's difficult to enforce a deadline on Mark
[03:07] <Burgundavia> yep
[03:08] <mdke> so, how about my question?
[03:08] <Burgundavia> twice now I have warned about this, in fact at UBZ, mark personally gave me his word
[03:08] <LaserJock> mdke: this is the new one http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper_art/chalkboard.png
[03:08] <Burgundavia> yep, I agree the foundation hasn't happened as it laid out, but I don't think that is a bad thing
[03:09] <Burgundavia> our community goverence structures are working well (CC and TB)
[03:10] <mdke> Burgundavia: here's how I see it. Avoiding conflicts of interest are essentially about being _seen_ to be independent, rather than necessarily actually being independent (as discussed, I don't see big problems there). However if you announce something big like that, and then deviate without any public announcement, that is a bad thing, I think
[03:10] <Burgundavia> for one, by keeping canonical this close to Ubuntu might be a good thing
[03:10] <Burgundavia> deviating was a Mark thing, I think
[03:10] <mdke> I don't think that really answers the point
[03:10] <mdke> LaserJock: greeeeeen
[03:11] <ghee22> ACTION updates svg at http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/Ubuntu/ Burgundavia: ok, so here's what we have right now in order:  Start Here, Productivity, Digital Media, Finding what you need, Staying Connected, Fun & Games, Easy Configuration, Safe Personal Computing,  Support, Community.. I understand it's extremely busy (many categories).  Before I superbash your idea, may I ask where you are going with having the same names as th
[03:11] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, and that hit only a week ago or so
[03:11] <Burgundavia> ghee22, the reason I use the same terms is that is because what people are going to go and see
[03:12] <Burgundavia> what does  "staying connected" mean? Internet is much clearer
[03:12] <mdke> ok, this is going to make the help system totally redundant ;)
[03:12] <mdke> not that that is necessarily a bad thing
[03:12] <Burgundavia> no, I was about to say that
[03:12] <mdke> i just have this impulse that the two things should be the same
[03:13] <ghee22> yeah, it's really difficult to maintain the direction I think this should go without a constant reminder that this is not a help program.  :o(
[03:13] <Burgundavia> hmm, ghee22's project is a real challenge for us, because it can be such a good thing, yet..
[03:14] <mdke> this is ghee22 it _is_ a help program
[03:14] <mdke> whoops
[03:14] <mdke> s/this is//
[03:15] <mdke> you are basically mapping out a good structure for what the front page of the help system should look like
[03:15] <Burgundavia> ghee22, what are supposed to be the deliverables of your project?
[03:15] <LaserJock> mdke: this is the community contributed Edubuntu background, if your interested: http://www.progbox.co.uk/33.jpg
[03:16] <ghee22> ok, here are specs that were assigned to me, with no additions of mine
[03:16] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, personally, that looks nice but I would not use it as a background
[03:16] <mdke> LaserJock: actually, I have to say that i don't like that. The world idea is nice, just too green
[03:16] <ghee22> A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu. The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu.
[03:16] <mdke> ghee22: that's yelp, isn't it?
[03:17] <ghee22> laserjock:  I think it's a smart idea, but it is very green.  
[03:17] <Burgundavia> it is a blackboard, after all
[03:17] <LaserJock> yeah, but people didn't want a blackboard
[03:17] <Burgundavia> (ignoring the insanity of calling something a blackboard when it is green)
[03:18] <LaserJock> anyway, my point is that the Edubuntu was not given a choice, they *had* to use the one they were given
[03:18] <mdke> LaserJock: anyhow, regardless of what I think of it, you're right. The community should have a lot of weight. And the team leads even more so
[03:18] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, you have an Edubuntu council
[03:18] <ghee22> mdke:  so how about I just submit yelp and we'll split the $4500?
[03:18] <ghee22> /me drools over new laptop he can purchase
[03:18] <Burgundavia> hell, you sit on it,
[03:18] <Burgundavia> raise it there
[03:19] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: but all members of the Council were against it and it did nothing
[03:19] <Burgundavia> that is an issue
[03:19] <mdke> ghee22: who assigned you this? I'd like to talk to them to find out more details about what they had in mind
[03:19] <Burgundavia> I would then raise that with the community council
[03:19] <mdke> LaserJock: ouch, that is an immense issue
[03:19] <ghee22> mdke: no assignment details.  just mentor.  please don't remove my project!
[03:20] <mdke> ghee22: sure, I wouldn't dream of it
[03:20] <mdke> ghee22: but I'd like to find out more details about what they had in mind
[03:20] <Burgundavia> ghee22, there are too many places we can use someone who can cute code
[03:20] <LaserJock> my personal opinion is that Canonical got stuck with paying for all this artwork and so had to use it
[03:20] <Burgundavia> s/cute/cut
[03:20] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, likely
[03:20] <Burgundavia> because they feared having no artwork
[03:21] <Burgundavia> a correct fear, in the case of the currently melting down ubuntu art team
[03:21] <ghee22> bugundavia: I'm not following, cut code?
[03:21] <Burgundavia> program
[03:21] <mdke> i think he means write code
[03:21] <LaserJock> I'm not really mad about it but it is an example of the Canonical/Ubuntu interaction being not always positive
[03:22] <mdke> indeed it is
[03:22] <mdke> the relationship between Canonical and the community is a really interesting one
[03:22] <mdke> so difficult to get it right
[03:22] <Burgundavia> at least it is not as bas the Fedora/RH one
[03:22] <Burgundavia> how about Novell/OpenSuse
[03:22] <mdke> yeah, i think the Ubuntu community is generally well used
[03:23] <mdke> which is thanks to the foresight they had right at the beginning when setting up the governance processes
[03:23] <LaserJock> oh, for sure, I'm still around and I believe in Ubuntu
[03:23] <ghee22> ahh, but my passion is about a welcome center.  it comes from giving ubuntu to friends and family and answering the same questions over and over again:  what do I use to chat, browse, write papers.  Putting answers in an attractive interface is what I proposed after seeing that spec.  Also, having a flashy introduction and using video screenshots to show users how to perform exactly what I document them to do.
[03:23] <mdke> but I do think there are lots of places that it could be done better
[03:23] <LaserJock> but I must say that presently I trust the Ubuntu community more than Canonical itself
[03:24] <mdke> ghee22: I see where you are coming from, definitely.
[03:24] <ghee22> mdke:  where do you think it can be better
[03:25] <ghee22> please keep in mind that I have deadlines, which is why I'm so eager to know how y'all think this should be done.  yes, that is an annoying comment and I apologize for it.  I just don't want to lose out on this opportunity
[03:26] <Burgundavia> ghee22, we recognize that
[03:26] <mdke> ghee22: I don't know, I'd read the spec and maybe we can discuss on the mailing list. i just think that the project as conceived has ignored the help system, and I feel instinctively that it is a bad idea for the two things to develop separately. But that's not your fault
[03:27] <ghee22> Burgundavia & mdke:  I'm glad.  it's a little frustrating as my assigned boss hasn't replied to me and I know I shouldn't put this on you, but what does he think is important since he is whom I'm assigned to currently.
[03:29] <mdke> ghee22: is there a reason your project isn't on http://code.google.com/soc/ubuntu/about.html ?
[03:30] <ghee22> yikes
[03:30] <mdke> ghee22: btw your mentor has been at debconf so maybe that is why he hasn't replied
[03:31] <mdke> ghee22: well, if you got an email saying that you're assigned to it, then it must be official
[03:31] <Burgundavia> ghee22, you know they screwed up on the emailing?
[03:32] <mdke> seriously?
[03:32] <Burgundavia> yep, sent confirmed to everybody
[03:32] <mdke> don't joke though
[03:32] <Burgundavia> ghee22, your student website is correct
[03:32] <mdke> they repaired it right?
[03:32] <Burgundavia> no, I am not joking
[03:32] <Burgundavia> they sent a 2nd email which is correct
[03:32] <ghee22> yes, but they said the website has the correct information. which it says my application is accepted for
[03:32] <Burgundavia> if your website says so, it is likely a bug
[03:32] <ghee22> and I'm on a maling list from janew with an assigned menrot.. this doesn't make sense
[03:33] <Burgundavia> sfflaw did also confirm to me that he is mentoring
[03:33] <ghee22> bet you can tell I'm shaky, can't spell properly
[03:33] <mdke> ok, so it's probably just missing from the google page
[03:33] <mdke> sounds like they've made a mess of this
[03:33] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
[03:33] <mdke> not surprising though, considering that they've been given like a million projects
[03:34] <Burgundavia> 610, to be exact
[03:34] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
[03:34] <mdke> no, i mean Ubuntu has been allocated a lot by google
[03:34] <Burgundavia> yep
[03:34] <mdke> considering fedora have like 4 or something
[03:35] <Burgundavia> interesting kde got 24 and gnome 20
[03:35] <mdke> they need it more :p
[03:35] <ghee22> my friend working at google say they use a customized derivative, goobutnu, so it makes sense to give ubuntu money in a public fashion improving their own goobuntu while looking charitable
[03:35] <mdke> true yeah
[03:36] <ghee22> mdke:  haha, the flame grows
[03:36] <ghee22> I am now wondering why simon has replied back yet. it's been 3 days.
[03:36] <mdke> ghee22: as I said, he's been at a conference, not much network access
[03:37] <ghee22> mdke: I see.
[03:37] <Burgundavia> and his jobs involves lots and lots of email
[03:39] <LaserJock> seriously, he is going through every bug report in Ubuntu
[03:39] <Burgundavia> poor bastard
[03:39] <mdke> yeah, not fun
[03:39] <Burgundavia> he is nice guy though
[03:39] <Burgundavia> he was at UBZ
[03:39] <mdke> oh yeah?
[03:40] <mdke> I like his blog posts
[03:40] <LaserJock> I don't know where he gets times to write them
[03:40] <LaserJock> but I like them too
[03:41] <mdke> DBO: on the CompositeManager page you've linked to some of the Ubuntu wiki guides we were hoping that we could nuke. Is there material still on those pages which isn't in your new system?
[03:51] <DBO> mdke, oops, lemme dig through and see what I can find
[03:51] <DBO> where are you looking?
[03:53] <DBO> mdke, oh those on the main page, yeah I nuke those now
[03:53] <DBO> ok, those are gone
[03:54] <DBO> nuke away (but at least keep copies since this hasnt been guinie pigged)
[03:54] <Burgundavia> DBO, make certain before you nuke that they have not been linked
[03:55] <Burgundavia> in fact, due to the popularity of xgl, I would say redirect only
[03:55] <DBO> Burgundavia, oh no no, dont be silly, Im not nuking anything, thats your job
[03:55] <DBO> you guys have the ubuntu masks =P  Im just a geek
[03:56] <Burgundavia> the masks mean nothing
[03:56] <mdke> DBO: we'll nuke. Is everything now contained on the pages you did? How about the specific ati/nvidia stuff?
[03:56] <DBO> ati and nvidia driver installs are NOT on these pages... and they shouldn't be
[03:57] <DBO> basically all the pages say is you need to have those drivers installed and link to the driver install pages
[03:57] <mdke> well, that might be worth saying
[03:57] <DBO> you mean go through the whole nvidia driver install procedure again???
[03:57] <mdke> no no
[03:58] <mdke> i mean, does this page add anything? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/xglati
[03:59] <Burgundavia> nope
[03:59] <DBO> well its got one gotchya
[03:59] <DBO> but thats mostly outdated now
[03:59] <DBO> you can nuke that with impunity
[04:00] <DBO> and for the love of zombie jesus somebody please help me with the formatting on the TOC of the Compiz Configure page
[04:00] <DBO> its crazy
[04:00] <mdke> I did that
[04:01] <DBO> thanks =)
[04:01] <mdke> I'm going to reorganise the front page a bit too
[04:02] <DBO> mdke, hey, I told you me bad writer, me just make everything in more organized format
[04:02] <DBO> (modular)
[04:02] <mdke> heh, you've done a good job, thanks
[04:03] <Burgundavia> let me second that
[04:03] <Burgundavia> I was just looking at those pages yesterday and getting depressed
[04:03] <DBO> the problem was fairly simple
[04:04] <DBO> everyone was writing the walkthroughs by installing Xgl and Compiz at the same time, this requires different walkthroughs for ATI or Nvidia
[04:04] <Burgundavia> most people are bad at abstracting what they do into more general docs
[04:05] <DBO> I just took the existing walkthrough and parsed out the right parts into different sections =P
[04:11] <DBO> ok, thats much better than my version lol
[04:12] <DBO> xserver links are broke now though (actually just not there)
[04:12] <mdke> yes, sorry
[04:13] <mdke> are you editing?
[04:13] <DBO> mmm not anymore
[04:13] <DBO> i didnt fix it
[04:13] <DBO> i just wanted to see what was up with it...
[04:13] <mdke> ok
[04:14] <DBO> I was gonna donkey them in there, but figured you might have a more elegant solution
[04:14] <mdke> yeah, I'll do it
[04:14] <mdke> you've got the editing lock though
[04:14] <DBO> hmmm...
[04:15] <DBO> try now
[04:15] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm, the server guide titles are kinda messed up
[04:15] <mdke> LaserJock: eh?
[04:16] <mdke> DBO: ok, sorted, thanks
[04:16] <LaserJock> mdke: it uses an entity that looks weird when translated
[04:16] <LaserJock> mdke: <title><phrase></phrase>  </title> for instance
[04:17] <mdke> LaserJock: oh bugger
[04:17] <LaserJock> the entity puts in <phrase> tags for Ubuntu I think
[04:17] <mdke> LaserJock: any other titles that might suffice which are clean?
[04:17] <mdke> (where he hasn't used that entitle)
[04:18] <mdke> DBO: what about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NestedXglHowto does that add anything?
[04:18] <DBO> mdke, well its an offshoot of xgl server...
[04:18] <DBO> lemme look
[04:18] <LaserJock> mdke: oh, actually the .omf files look like they will work
[04:18] <DBO> yes it does, yes it should be seperate because it is abnormal
[04:18] <mdke> LaserJock: phew
[04:19] <mdke> DBO: can it be made into another subpage?
[04:19] <DBO> mdke, sure if you like
[04:19] <DBO> just change the linkage
[04:19] <LaserJock> the server guide was the only one with that problem
[04:19] <mdke> DBO: ok, i'll look
[04:19] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah
[04:20] <mdke> DBO: i'm starting the nuking
[04:20] <DBO> mdke, Im praying to my respective diety
[04:20] <mdke> DBO: anything extra in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XglHowto ?
[04:21] <DBO> mmmm, its a different method, I dont like it, can you make it non-public?
[04:21] <DBO> instead of a full nuking
[04:21] <DBO> that particular method is rather hackish
[04:22] <mdke> we can't make it non-public
[04:22] <mdke> if it's wrong, it should go
[04:22] <DBO> mdke, well it DOES work... its just... an odd way to do it...
[04:22] <DBO> like I said, Xgl is very alpha...
[04:22] <DBO> go ahead and nuke it
[04:22] <DBO> I can put it back in if we need to later
[04:23] <mdke> ok
[04:23] <DBO> what they did there was take the symlink that points to xorg normally and pointed it at xgl... this has the very negative effect of causing ALL xservers to use that... not just the ones you want
[04:24] <mdke> that's what matt said to do in his original post to ubuntu-devel when he uploaded xgl packages, iirc
[04:25] <DBO> yeah... we dont like that solution... it makes a hack of a hack
[04:26] <mdke> ok, nearly done
[04:26] <LaserJock> mdke: umm, the packaging guide .desktop is misspelled as packaginguide.desktop
[04:26] <LaserJock> rather than packagingguide.desktop
[04:26] <DBO> btw, I prefer to go through this war anonymous... so erm, if you need to identify use my launchpad username, k? =)
[04:27] <mdke> LaserJock: not sure, perhaps it doesn't matter
[04:27] <mdke> i'll fire up khelpcenter and see
[04:27] <Burgundavia> DBO, is there some issue with using Ubuntu?
[04:27] <mdke> DBO: thanks very much for your work
[04:28] <DBO> Burgundavia, what I mean is anything I do on the wiki or any projects I do I prefer to do without attatching them to DBO... I like to stay relatively low key =)
[04:28] <Burgundavia> ah
[04:30] <DBO> this is my weekend off, anyone in detroit wanna go for beers?
[04:31] <DBO> wait, this isnt offtopic, sorry
[04:31] <Burgundavia> DBO, there is a pretty big community in detriot
[04:31] <DBO> I know it =)
[04:33] <mdke> ok, all done
[04:33] <DBO> anything else that needs technical documentation?
[04:33] <mdke> heh, yeah
[04:34] <DBO> what you got on your plate?
[04:35] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo
[04:35] <LaserJock> mdke: the .desktop looks ok in khelpcenter?
[04:35] <DBO> oh wow you guys are asking for pain
[04:35] <LaserJock> no, only perfection ;-)
[04:35] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah
[04:36] <mdke> looks fine, I don't think it matters what it is called
[04:36] <LaserJock> k, I'll leave it alone
[04:36] <DBO> you guys have a lot of these guides already though... just not linked to the pages you seem to want...
[04:36] <mdke> it appears to be half past three
[04:36] <LaserJock> argh
[04:36] <LaserJock> go to bed
[04:37] <mdke> ok
[04:38] <LaserJock> mdke: commited
[04:40] <mdke> ooh
[04:40] <mdke> all of it?
[04:41] <LaserJock> the .desktops
[04:41] <mdke> that's so awesome
[04:41] <mdke> LaserJock: can you put the script in too? it will allow us to rerun it when we get more translations
[04:42] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I just need to modify it to look to see if the translation is already present
[04:42] <LaserJock> so we don't have duplicates
[04:42] <mdke> LaserJock: brilliant. You're a star
[04:43] <LaserJock> heh, not really. I'm just trying to learn python and so I'm slow but it is still worthwile for me for a learning experience
[04:44] <mdke> i appreciate it a lot
[04:47] <mdke> night
[04:48] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[06:15] <Madpilot> is launchpad down again?
[06:20] <crimsun> yes.
[06:20] <crimsun> 502
[06:20] <crimsun> it was having problems yesterday iirc, and daniel h. had to sms someone
[06:32] <Madpilot> thanks - provided it's not just me ;)
[07:07] <Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco 
[07:08] <jsgotangco> salut Burgundavia
[07:11] <LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
[07:11] <jsgotangco> hi how's the weekend
[07:12] <Burgundavia> not bad
[07:12] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:12] <Burgundavia> KristianHermann hit again on the wiki
[07:12] <jsgotangco> vandal?
[07:13] <Madpilot> our aptitude quasi-vandal?
[07:13] <Burgundavia> yep, him
[07:14] <jsgotangco> lol personally i'd use aptitude but then, apt itself is the most popular and visible tool
[07:14] <Burgundavia> is k3b installed by default on Kubuntu
[07:14] <Burgundavia> ?
[07:14] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:14] <Madpilot> all the work that needs doing on the wiki, and he's chasing around fiddly nonsense like s/apt-get/aptitude... 
[07:14] <jsgotangco> considering d-i uses aptitude as well
[07:15] <jsgotangco> Madpilot: it can be considered religious...on the apt/aptitude issue
[07:15] <Madpilot> quite likely ;)
[07:15] <jsgotangco> both have the same purpose but aptitude handles it with grace
[07:16] <jsgotangco> me and my peers talked about it before for a project but decided apt is too popular to upset the norm
[07:17] <jsgotangco> (not to mention upstream favours it heavily for users)
[07:17] <crimsun> someone suggested removing $apt and just saying "install ..."
[07:17] <crimsun> I'm in favour of that approach
[07:18] <jsgotangco> crimsun: yeah that's a good approach, probably just mention your choices at the beginning
[07:18] <Burgundavia> that has always been our approach in the svn docs
[07:18] <Burgundavia> we are now just carrying it into the wiki ones
[07:19] <jsgotangco> well good luck on that
[07:19] <Burgundavia> I have already done bits and pieces of the work
[07:20] <jsgotangco> we could always make people's lives miserable by favouring dselect ;)
[07:20] <Burgundavia> heh
[07:22] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, where are you logged in with jsgAWAY 
[07:23] <Burgundavia> ?
[07:23] <jsgotangco> hmm sorry that's my machine at work
[07:23] <jsgotangco> i forgot to turn it off
[07:23] <jsgotangco> i should ssh and kill it
[07:24] <jsgotangco> (if i could only remember that host)
[07:40] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: should be easy enough :)
[07:40] <jsgotangco> lol
[07:50] <Burgundavia> ok, time to cleanup the IdeaPool page
[08:37] <ghee22> 
[08:37] <Madpilot> hmm?
[08:38] <ghee22> Madpilot: just testing gaim's capability's for irc.  closed server "IM box" but testing if it kept my connection to server by typing in this channel.. apparently it's smart enough to.
[08:38] <Madpilot> gaim is smart? ;)
[08:44] <crimsun> gaim's pretty nice for IM, but imo it's ludicrous for irc.
[12:49] <glatzor> mdke: is it ok if I add a German saying to the LoCoTeam section of the desktop guide
[12:50] <glatzor> it is "think global, act local" and is quite prominent.
[12:50] <mdke> glatzor: what section is that?
[12:50] <glatzor> "Theseareself-organizedgroupsofUbuntuenthusiastswhowanttobringthe
[12:50] <glatzor> Ubuntucommunityontoalocallevel."
[12:51] <mdke> yeah sure
[12:51] <glatzor> thanks
[12:51] <mdke> good idea, as long as you don't break anything
[12:51] <glatzor> I will try to not do so :)
[12:54] <glatzor> mdke: should the urls that point to ubuntu websites use https instead of http?
[12:54] <glatzor> https isn't allowed in China, right?
[12:55] <mdke> no idea
[12:55] <mdke> it should redirect anyhow
[12:55] <mdke> actually, seems the website is on http
[01:25] <glatzor> mdke: but i always get the notification that the ubuntu certificate is not a valid one. wasn't mark the founder of thwate? :)
[01:25] <glatzor> and you cannot be redirected if you cannot connect to the server via https
[01:55] <mdke> glatzor: yes, the correct website is http://www.ubuntu.com
[01:56] <glatzor> i will collect all wrong urls in a bug
[01:56] <mdke> glatzor: do the urls point at https:// ?
[01:58] <glatzor> mdke: some
[01:58] <glatzor> or actually one that i can remember now
[01:58] <mdke> ah
[01:58] <glatzor> wait I will do a grep
[01:59] <glatzor> mdke: about 10 or so
[01:59] <mdke> glatzor: to the website? I didn't think we had so many links
[02:00] <glatzor> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org//14769
[02:01] <mdke> glatzor: dude, there is nothing to the website in there
[02:01] <glatzor> mdke: this was a grep "https desktopguide.po"
[02:01] <glatzor> the wiki is not part of the ubuntu webiste?
[02:01] <mdke> glatzor: the wiki is https
[02:01] <mdke> so is launchpad
[02:02] <glatzor> ok
[02:08] <pigreco314> exit
[02:22] <mdke> looks pretty good
[02:22] <highvoltage> what are you using now, mdke?
[02:22] <mdke> evolution
[02:22] <highvoltage> thunderbird is great
[02:23] <mdke> but it's pissing me off
[02:23] <highvoltage> so is evolution :)
[02:23] <highvoltage> why?
[02:23] <mdke> has thunderbird got reply-to-list yet?
[02:23] <mdke> highvoltage: just very slow and loads of bugs which never get answered
[02:23] <highvoltage> hmmm.. i use evolution for all my lists, so i'm not sure :)
[02:24] <highvoltage> yeah, thunderbird is quite slow
[02:24] <highvoltage> especially with imap
[02:24] <mdke> i get the feeling it will be higher quality software than evolution
[02:29] <dsas> no reply to list in thunderbird yet.
[02:29] <dsas> (if ever)
[02:30] <mdke> meh
[02:30] <mdke> if I use newsgroups for the mailing lists, rather than email, that will solve the "absence of reply-to-list" I suppose
[02:31] <mdke> it has "reply to newsgroup"
[02:32] <mdke> hmm, it isn't previewing messages in my imap folder
[02:33] <mdke> now it is
[02:35] <mdke> looks rather good
[02:39] <highvoltage> mdke: which ipod do you have?
[02:39] <highvoltage> mdke: i have a nano and hate that i have to transcode my oggs to mp3 for it
[02:39] <mdke> mini 1st gen
[02:40] <mdke> should work on the nano though
[02:45] <highvoltage> anything that works worse than with the apple firmware?
[02:46] <mdke> highvoltage: well, it's not so sexy... otherwise everything working well
[02:47] <mdke> a few wrinkles were sorted out by asking on #rockbox
[02:47] <mdke> obviously its not as polished as the apple firmware, but for me it does the job, and playing oggs is a massive improvement
[02:48] <mdke> another plus is that I don't need some clever app to put my music on it
[02:48] <mdke> i just use nautilus and do mass copying from my computer
[02:56] <highvoltage> ah nice
[02:59] <mdke> highvoltage: the first evening I was using it, it crashed twice, but since then I haven't seen that again
[02:59] <mdke> I'd say give it a try
[02:59] <highvoltage> i wanted to give ipodlinux a try too, but it's badly supported for nanos
[03:00] <highvoltage> i originally wanted to buy a device that plays .oggs, but they are either too bulky, or to expensive
[03:00] <mdke> how is the nano?
[03:00] <mdke> fairly robust?
[03:00] <highvoltage> yep
[03:01] <mdke> cool
[03:01] <highvoltage> although the interface is a bit irritating if you're used to a motorola phone's interface
[03:01] <mdke> I've had my mini a year and a half now, it's still going strong (touch wood)
[03:01] <highvoltage> things work exaclty the opposite to that
[03:01] <mdke> oh, the battery doesn't last as long as with the Apple firmware, btw
[03:01] <mdke> fairly predictably
[03:01] <highvoltage> how much less?
[03:01] <highvoltage> still a day at least?
[03:02] <mdke> no, I doubt it
[03:02] <mdke> my mini doesn't last a day even with the apple firmware ;)
[03:02] <mdke> not sure
[03:06] <david__> hello
[03:06] <highvoltage> hi david__ 
[03:06] <david__> I have a problem with Dapper Drake, where would I report that?
[03:07] <mdke> david__: #ubuntu
[03:07] <david__> thanks
[03:11] <ajmitch> mdke: not malone?
[03:11] <ajmitch> the poor guy is getting bounced from channel to channel
[03:12] <mdke> ajmitch: well, i figured it might not be a bug and he can find out more in #ubuntu
[03:12] <ajmitch> preinst script failing..
[03:13] <ajmitch> and #ubuntu+1 is for dapper
[03:14] <mdke> well, I always go to #ubuntu even with dapper questions
[03:15] <mdke> i don't think distinguishing by version number is a good way to give irc support, myself
[03:17] <mdke> anyway, I hope he finds the answer
[04:40] <mdke> hi luzi 
[04:40] <mdke> I didn't find any solution yet to the image sizing.
[04:41] <mdke> luzi: what stylesheets were you using when you built it?
[04:50] <luzi> hi mdke
[04:51] <luzi> mdke, i used just what's in SVN, plus this : -<xsl:import href="/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
[04:51] <luzi> +<xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
[04:51] <luzi> in libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl
[04:52] <mdke> luzi: ok, so you used the 1.68 stylesheets
[04:52] <mdke> lemme try that with fop 1.92beta
[04:54] <mdke> no, same thing
[04:55] <mdke> luzi: we really need to use fop 1.92beta, especially for building the lulu pdfs
[04:55] <luzi> hm. so should i go ahead and try it with <mediaobject> instead of <graphic> ?
[04:55] <mdke> luzi: if you don't mind, I think it's worth a try.
[04:55] <luzi> alright, i'll try it. can you hint me at where i would have to do scaling in the stylesheet?
[04:56] <mdke> luzi: I think it should be automatic, but lemme look it up
[04:58] <mdke> looks like you don't do it in the stylesheets, but in the text itself. http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ImageSizing.html
[05:20] <luzi> mdke, i've now replaced <graphic> with <mediaobject> locally. i've not added scaling params yet. the result is still the same for me. do you want to try if this already makes a difference for you?
[05:21] <luzi> i could send you a patch or just commit it.
[05:22] <mdke> luzi: yeah, either sounds great, thanks
[05:27] <luzi> mdke, here you go: http://www.doink.ch/xubuntu-doc/graphic-to-mediaobject-patch.diff
[05:43] <luzi> mdke, i've tried with fop1.92beta, and the imaged do now overlap... so this is indeed the problem.
[05:43] <luzi> it's actually fop0.92beta, but anyway
[06:02] <LaserJock> morning doc people
[06:02] <crimsun> 'afternoon
[06:21] <mdke> luzi: I'll try it, thanks. And if there are more problems I'll ask on the fop mailing list
[06:22] <LaserJock> hehe, I got to tell my grandpa about lulu.com last night
[06:22] <LaserJock> he has all this geneology material that he would like to get to put in book form
[06:22] <luzi> mdke, i think i just fixed with with rev3112. can you please verify?
[06:23] <mdke> luzi: I will give it a try this evening, nice work
[06:25] <luzi> mdke, alright, i'm off then. let me know whether it worked or not!
[06:25] <ompaul> now that warty is retired should packages.ubuntu.com only reference the sources for it so it can be dropped in a couple of years
[06:26] <mdke> luzi: will do!
[06:27] <luzi> byebye
[06:28] <jsgotangco> hey
[06:34] <jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
[06:34] <mdke> jsgotangco: hi
[06:34] <jsgotangco> mdke: do you have the link for the translated websites? (website-index po)
[06:35] <mdke> jsgotangco: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/website-index
[06:35] <jsgotangco> no no no
[06:35] <jsgotangco> i mean on the website itself
[06:36] <mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/index.cc.html
[06:36] <jsgotangco> d.u.c/foo/foo whatever
[06:36] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[06:36] <jsgotangco> tnx
[06:36] <mdke> np
[07:03] <LaserJock> hmm, software channel doesn't sound very good to me
[08:55] <mdke> LaserJock: me neither
[08:58] <LaserJock> mdke: I like the repository sound, I imagine a software holding tank, but maybe it is not so easy to translate
[08:58] <LaserJock> software channel reminds me of tv
[08:58] <mdke> me too
[09:16] <mdke> you know, I think everything is ready for the brand new help.ubuntu.com
[09:27] <mdke> highvoltage, LaserJock, did the question of edubuntu wiki documentation get resolved?
[09:27] <highvoltage> mdke: i think so
[09:27] <highvoltage> mdke: actually, your blog entry explained things very well
[09:28] <mdke> highvoltage: i thought I kinda just repeated my email ;) So is it going to be included in the move?
[09:29] <highvoltage> mdke: kinda
[09:29] <highvoltage> mdke: make that a yes
[09:29] <mdke> hmm?
[09:29] <highvoltage> we're going to put mature docs that's not going to be edited (or doesn't need much future editing) on the website
[09:30] <highvoltage> things that's common to ubuntu/edubuntu/xubuntu should move along to the new wiki, for example, the LTSP pages
[09:30] <mdke> hmm
[09:30] <highvoltage> mdke: am i being too vague?
[09:30] <LaserJock> highvoltage: is there are reason to not put the work-in-progress docs there?
[09:30] <mdke> shame people won't be able to find the edubuntu docs on the help.u.c site, maybe we can make redirects or something
[09:31] <mdke> aha, Burgundavia 
[09:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes, although a very simple, and easy to fix one. people can't register themselves yet, because we're just waiting on znarl to configure mail on the box
[09:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: but we could eventually do it, yes
[09:32] <highvoltage> Burgundavia: salut
[09:32] <Burgundavia> mdke, you need me?
[09:32] <Burgundavia> salut highvoltage 
[09:32] <mdke> Burgundavia: hiya. Was wondering, have you had a look through CategoryDocumentation looking for non-docs?
[09:33] <mdke> highvoltage: so you're going to be working on edubuntu docs elsewhere?
[09:33] <LaserJock> highvoltage: people can't register themselves for what?
[09:33] <Burgundavia> mdke, nope
[09:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: on the drupal site
[09:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: i think i may have misunderstood you
[09:33] <mdke> Burgundavia: ah, ok
[09:34] <mdke> Burgundavia: I'm at "m"
[09:34] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ah, ok. the reason why we're not moving the 'done' docs to the wiki, is to avoid future maintenance
[09:34] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:34] <highvoltage> LaserJock: and so that the user knows where to find edubuntu specific docs
[09:35] <mdke> highvoltage: you could lock a page down on the new wiki, as an alternative. That way you get all the docs in the same place
[09:35] <mdke> Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LuffyDiMonkey <-- this can go, don't you think?
[09:36] <mdke> ah interesting
[09:36] <mdke> LaserJock: lots of the subpages of MOTU are marked with CategoryDocumentation. I think they should stay on the main wiki, is that right?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:37] <LaserJock> It sort of depends
[09:37] <highvoltage> mdke: we could do that, but the purpose isn't so much to lock it down, as to have it searchable from the website search button
[09:37] <highvoltage> mdke: and for that we need to have it in drupal
[09:38] <highvoltage> mdke: why would you want it to move with to the doc wiki? for searching purposes?
[09:38] <LaserJock> we have a fair amount of documentation for learning how to package, etc. most users probably wouldn't be interested though
[09:39] <mdke> highvoltage: well, i just thought it would be nice to have it together with the other ubuntu docs, but I don't have any problem with what you decide
[09:39] <mdke> LaserJock: since they are subpages of MOTU, I reckon they should stay on the main wiki
[09:40] <LaserJock> I guess
[09:40] <mdke> not convinced?
[09:40] <highvoltage> mdke: i think let's get all the importand stuff into drupal for now, and move all the edubuntu wiki doc pages along with the ubuntu ones
[09:40] <highvoltage> mdke: and then later decide if we really need to drop them from the wiki
[09:41] <LaserJock> well, it is somewhat of border case, there are docs for users wanting to get into development
[09:41] <LaserJock> so it is hard to figure out if it is documentation or development
[09:41] <mdke> highvoltage: ok. They need to be tagged with CategoryDocumentation, yeah?
[09:41] <highvoltage> mdke: ok.
[09:41] <mdke> LaserJock: well, it's clearly documentation, but it has to be on the main wiki because it's about how to contribute to the commmunity
[09:42] <mdke> highvoltage: will you take care of it, or delegate or whatever? ;)
[09:42] <highvoltage> mdke: yes, i will delegate to cbx33
[09:42] <highvoltage> mdke: and tag any pages i happen to come accross
[09:42] <mdke> great, thanks
[09:42] <mdke> maybe we can do the wiki move quite soon
[09:44] <LaserJock> ah heck, any of the MOTU stuff people would be interested will be in the Packaging Guide
[09:44] <mdke> LaserJock: i'll ask in -motu
[09:44] <LaserJock> hehe, good luck with that
[09:56] <mdke> tricky
[09:56] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RsyncCdImage
[09:56] <mdke> Burgundavia: ^?
[09:56] <Burgundavia> clearly docs
[09:56] <LaserJock> PbuilderHowto shouldn't go either
[09:57] <mdke> LaserJock: alright
[09:59] <highvoltage> mdke: will the new wiki be editible?
[09:59] <mdke> highvoltage: of course
[10:00] <mdke> Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StagesOfUse ??
[10:01] <DBO> mdke, is the new wiki going to be at the same adress as the old one?
[10:01] <mdke> DBO: no
[10:01] <DBO> =/  argh, thats a lot of links to change in the forums
[10:02] <mdke> no, links won't be broken
[10:02] <mdke> we're not that thick :)
[10:02] <DBO> =P
[10:05] <mdke> Burgundavia: I think this can be put out of its misery, don't you? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDocbookInterchangeProtocol
[10:05] <Burgundavia> kill them both
[10:14] <mdke> ah shit
[10:14] <mdke> 25 odd forum pages to tag
[10:14] <highvoltage> mdke: so, we've sorted out the edubuntu doc move thing
[10:15] <highvoltage> mdke: the wiki pages will move along with CategoryDocumentation
[10:15] <highvoltage> mdke: and eventually, we'll move it off of there
[10:15] <highvoltage> mdke: so this will be a bit of the process in the end, but should work out fine.
[10:15] <mdke> highvoltage: ok
[10:17] <mdke> Burgundavia: ok, I've checked everything, I think now the only other thing we can do is to tag all the forum/* pages
[10:18] <highvoltage> Burgundavia, mdke: are you two going to Paris for the dev-summit?
[10:18] <Burgundavia> highvoltage, no, works conflicts with it
[10:19] <highvoltage> :/
[10:21] <mdke> no
[10:22] <highvoltage> ok well, goodnight guys.
[10:22] <highvoltage> may the force be with you.
[10:24] <mdke> man it's like the old days charging through the wiki
[10:25] <Burgundavia> there is a lot of crap in the wiki
[10:25] <Burgundavia> mdke, shall I work my way up from Z?
[10:26] <mdke> Burgundavia: I've got to the end, I think, but another eyeballing wouldn't hurt I guess. The hardest thing is stuff that isn't there, but should be
[10:27] <Burgundavia> are we moving non-english docs as well?
[10:27] <Burgundavia> they are traditionally not categorized as catdoc
[10:28] <mdke> Burgundavia: oh, I've left the ones I saw in there, yeah
[10:28] <Burgundavia> then we should probably move the rest of the non-english ones as well
[10:29] <mdke> indeed. There are lots which aren't tagged?
[10:29] <Burgundavia> yes, my policy has to remove catdoc from non-english docs
[10:30] <mdke> hmm
[10:30] <mdke> well ideally of course they'd be on a separate wiki for their own language
[10:31] <Burgundavia> yep
[10:32] <Burgundavia> we are far from ideal
[10:33] <LaserJock> it'd be awesome if you could import the wiki into Rosetta
[10:33] <LaserJock> and people could actually translate it
[10:33] <Burgundavia> heh
[10:33] <Burgundavia> I would like to move away from the wiki to something more robust, like docudo
[10:38] <DBO> docudo?
[10:38] <Burgundavia> new shiny python doc editor
[10:39] <DBO> link? =)
[10:39] <Burgundavia> http://www.checkandshare.com/blog/?p=42
[10:40] <DBO> yeah I was just there, it didnt tell me much...
[10:40] <DBO> i was hoping for a live demo =P
[10:41] <LaserJock> mdke: cool name?
[10:48] <mdke> no?
[11:03] <LaserJock> mdke: I don't think python is particularly cool name
[11:08] <mdke> LaserJock: oh well, my bad then
[11:11] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, why not?
[11:11] <LaserJock> hehe, I just wondered if you do
[11:12] <LaserJock> I guess names just aren't very important to me
[11:12] <Burgundavia> I guess you are not a marketing/sales wonk then
[11:12] <LaserJock> not at all :-)
[11:13] <LaserJock> I guess python is good because it is easy to remember/spell
[11:13] <Burgundavia> anyway, I have to run. Need to buy 50' of network cable to get this noisy server out of my bedroom
[11:14] <LaserJock> 50', that's like the length of my house
[11:14] <Burgundavia> 50' is probably too much, but I it is always good to have 50' on you
[11:15] <Burgundavia> and I left my last 50' at my last place
[11:15] <Burgundavia> it had kind of become part of the house
[11:36] <mdke> ah crap
[11:36] <mdke> bzip2 in 100% cpu SHOCK