[05:41] <troy_s> greetings
[05:42] <dinda> howdy
[07:07] <troy_s> ze pilot
[07:08] <Madpilot> hi
[07:08] <troy_s> greetz
[07:10] <Madpilot> gah... tired. Nine hours at work w/ a 90 minute commute each way, new job...
[07:30] <troy_s> uggh
[07:30] <troy_s> ugggllleeeee
[09:01] <dizz1> what is that button under ubuntu logo everywhere?
[09:01] <dizz1> why?
[09:02] <dizz1> do you know what i mean?
[09:02] <Madpilot> which button?
[09:02] <dizz1> i ve just updated ubuntu and i see the new artwork
[09:03] <dizz1> on the panel 
[09:03] <dizz1> near the applications
[09:03] <dizz1> it must be removed 
[09:03] <Madpilot> the logo in the top-left corner?
[09:03] <dizz1> yes
[09:04] <dizz1> also under system/about ubuntu
[09:04] <Madpilot> yes
[09:04] <dizz1> you see it?
[09:05] <Madpilot> of course.
[09:06] <Madpilot> why must Ubuntu's own logo be removed from the Ubuntu desktop, anyway?
[09:06] <dizz1> i think it should be like in gnome
[09:06] <Madpilot> with the foot instead?
[09:06] <dizz1> not the logo but the button under
[09:06] <dizz1> you know?
[09:07] <dizz1> yesterday it was without a button
[09:07] <Madpilot> no, I've never used a 'pure' Gnome desktop, only Ubuntu's and a couple of other distro's
[09:07] <Madpilot> still not sure what you mean by 'the button under'...
[09:08] <dizz1> there's a square under the logo
[09:09] <dizz1> the square looks like a button
[09:09] <dizz1> square as a background
[09:09] <Madpilot> I'm still running Ubuntu 5.10, and there's no square, just the logo...
[09:10] <dizz1> oh....
[09:10] <dizz1> I had to say that
[09:10] <Madpilot> are you running Dapper?
[09:10] <dizz1> im using the dapper
[09:11] <dizz1> anyway
[09:11] <dizz1> where can i give my suggestins about the artwork?
[09:11] <Madpilot> the artwork team mailing list is probably best
[09:12] <dizz1> do you have a link?
[09:14] <Madpilot> sure, just a sec
[09:14] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam
[09:22] <dizz1> you are a member of the ubuntu-art team!
[09:23] <dizz1> so you are the person who i should talk
[09:24] <dizz1> my opinion is: remove the square beneath the logo
[09:24] <dizz1> Madpilot:
[09:25] <Madpilot> dizz1, can you stick a screenshot up so I can see this square?
[09:26] <dizz1> yeah!
[09:34] <Madpilot> dizz1, I'm signing off for the night. Post a screenshot somewhere, and send the URL to the artteam mailing list
[09:36] <dizz1> Madpilot: thanx for helping
[11:34] <marcin_ant> guys really don't mess with ubuntu artwork please!
[11:35] <marcin_ant> this button under ubuntu logo is just ugly - same with thrash icon
[11:35] <marcin_ant> please revert to previous artwork which was nice and clean
[03:03] <bersace> Wow
[03:03] <bersace> i'm testing OpenSuSE 10.1
[03:03] <bersace> that is so pretty
[03:03] <bersace> so professionnal
[03:32] <kwwii> testing gnome or kde?
[03:32] <kwwii> cause the kde in it is shit
[03:32] <kwwii> but hey, we all expected that
[03:32] <kwwii> time for a nap
[03:39] <lapo_> hi
[03:41] <bersace> hi
[04:10] <dholbach> heya
[04:13] <Who_> hi
[04:13] <Who_> dholbach: quiet, isn't it :)
[04:14] <bersace> dholbach: do we still ship gnome-themes ?
[04:14] <dholbach> yeah, we do
[04:14] <dholbach> Who_: that's how we get gtk2-engine-pixbuf:   ubuntu-desktop -> gnome-themes -> g-e-pixbuf
[04:14] <dholbach> so we're happy over there as well
[04:15] <dholbach> no new depends to do, wihch makes me happy
[04:15] <bersace> dholbach: wouldn't it be nice to drop gnome-themes except accessibility themes ?
[04:15] <Who_> dholbach: wow, you gotta be on top of this :)
[04:15] <dholbach> bersace: no, can't do that - people who upgrade will loose their themes, if they selected them.
[04:16] <bersace> ?
[04:16] <dholbach> bersace: we'd remove them under their seat, that doesn't work.
[04:16] <bersace> if ubuntu-desktop does not depend on a package, it will be removed ???
[04:16] <Who_> dholbach: does it hurt to make ubuntu-desktop depend on pixbuf?
[04:16] <bersace> Who_: agree
[04:16] <dholbach> Who_: it depends on gnome-themes, which depends on pixbuf, so there's no need for that
[04:17] <Who_> dholbach: okie, I was just thinking about dropping gnome-themes in the future, but I guess that isn't likely to happen...?
[04:17] <dholbach> bersace: Matt asked us to not do last minute seed changes (which change ubuntu-{desktop,minimal,...}
[04:17] <z_diver> dholbach: how about the nuoveXT icons?  Is there any problem with including them?
[04:18] <dholbach> no, I fear not this time
[04:18] <dholbach> z_diver: where are those? it's a complete new icon set to get on the CD?
[04:18] <bersace> dholbach: of course, that is more intended for edgy
[04:18] <dholbach> bersace: ok, let's discuss it then.
[04:18] <bersace> that would be nice to have Artteam selected theme only including an accessibility theme
[04:18] <z_diver> dholbach: yes, both industrialXT and GrayXT count on them
[04:19] <z_diver> I can send them to you.
[04:19] <z_diver> dholbach: but is there space
[04:19] <dholbach> bersace: that doesn't work either. we need *all* of the themes, as disabled people have different impairements. there is no "one size fits all" theme for them.
[04:19] <dholbach> z_diver: there is no space, not at all.
[04:19] <bersace> dholbach: you mean that we need several accessibility theme ?
[04:19] <dholbach> I wasn't aware of the new icon and it's far to late to package it and get it approved for main, included in the seeds etc.
[04:19] <dholbach> bersace: yes.
[04:19] <bersace> that's not the problem, 
[04:20] <z_diver> dholbach: OK.  we need to alter the depency then
[04:20] <dholbach> bersace: you can ask on ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com about that.
[04:20] <dholbach> z_diver: in which way? what do you propose?
[04:20] <z_diver> dholbach: change both those to use the Human icons in the metatheme file
[04:20] <dholbach> I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I'd have been happy with all this kind of information some days ago :-/
[04:20] <bersace> i want to drop Grand Canyon, Glider, Mist, Ocean Dream, Simple Smockey Blue and Traditionnal
[04:20] <Who_> Summary of themes and dependencies; GrayXT: Pixbuf (ubuntu-desktop-->gnome-themes); LegacyHuman: Clearlooks (ubuntu-desktop); DapperDrake, Silicon, Human: UbuntuLooks (ubuntu-artwork); Resilience: Smooth (ubuntu-desktop)
[04:20] <dholbach> z_diver: is that something the other people hit me for?
[04:21] <dholbach> bersace: drop as in how?
[04:21] <bersace> ?
[04:21] <bersace> do not ship it by default.
[04:21] <dholbach> ask on ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com about that.
[04:21] <z_diver> dholbach: I don't think this was done on time and it's a big mess now.
[04:22] <lapo_> dholbach: andreasn is planning an accessibility icon theme for edgy and i think I'll help him
[04:22] <dholbach> lapo: that sounds marvellous
[04:22] <dholbach> z_diver: I perfectly agree.
[04:22] <z_diver> dholbach: I guessed the nuoveXT icons were too big in the begining
[04:22] <bersace> dholbach: i just want to know if the artwork team is the team that decide which themes are shiped (except accessibility theme which are choosed by accessibility team)
[04:22] <dholbach> z_diver: does Human fit with that?
[04:22] <Who_> dholbach: Do you have the email I sent you with the original GraXT themes - it linked to the NuoveXT icons
[04:22] <z_diver> dholbach: not great.
[04:23] <dholbach> bersace: it has to be in accordance with everybody else.
[04:23] <z_diver> dholbach: Let me have a look for althernatives.
[04:23] <sabdfl> hi all
[04:23] <dholbach> Who_: I can't package and get them on the CD now - it's too late for that.
[04:23] <Who_> dholbach: okay, so we need to change the Gray and Industrial themes to use some other icons?
[04:23] <dholbach> Who_: we already had to drop language-packs and make room for the 2,5 MB of artwork.
[04:23] <dholbach> Who_: yes, for Dapper.
[04:23] <z_diver> Who_: Yeah, we need to find something on there that will look nice and work.
[04:24] <Who_> dholbach: okay on to it now
[04:24] <dholbach> Who_: things would have been different some days or weeks ago, but it's a bad time to get a new icon theme packaged, approved for main, added to the seeds and other stuff remove for it.
[04:24] <Who_> Anyone know which icon themes we have by default on the CD
[04:24] <dholbach> tango, tangerine, human, gnome
[04:24] <Who_> dholbach: is there the possibility of having NuoveXT somewhere in the repos?
[04:25] <Who_> okay, I'm gonna go with Tangerine for GrayXT, and Gnome for IndustrialXT
[04:25] <Who_> any objections?
[04:25] <Who_> in fact, Tango for Industrial, cos we don't have that anywhere else as selectable
[04:25] <dholbach> Who_: I think it's too late for nuoveXT - I'm very busy with the Dapper release
[04:25] <z_diver> Who_: How about Tango for Industrrial
[04:26] <Who_> dholbach: okay. Edgy it is :)
[04:26] <Who_> z_diver: great minds....
[04:26] <z_diver> Who_: blue and blue at leat
[04:26] <z_diver> Who_: least
[04:26] <Who_> z_diver: see above :) I agree
[04:26] <bersace> hello sabdfl !
[04:26] <dholbach> can you drop me a quick mail with the changes I need to do for the icons for the themes?
[04:27] <z_diver> dholbach: sure thing
[04:27] <bersace> i just want to know if the artwork team is the team that decide which themes are shiped (except accessibility theme which are choosed by accessibility team)
[04:27] <lapo_> what is tango for industrial?
[04:27] <dholbach> z_diver: thanks
[04:27] <Who_> dholbach: will do. Is it too much to rename GrayXT and IndustrialXT as they no longer ahve any XT to them?
[04:27] <z_diver> lapo: I think it may work
[04:27] <dholbach> Who_: we have industrial already in the archive, for grayxt we have to hope that nobody uses it already
[04:28] <dholbach> Who_: which means, that I'm not so happy about changing the names now
[04:28] <Who_> okay. I'll keep them
[04:28] <dholbach> ok thanks
[04:28] <Who_> dholbach: - or add a Tangerine to the end or somethin - I guess the folder structure has to be redone anyway?
[04:29] <dholbach> Who_: I'll take care of the directory issues of the themes
[04:30] <Who_> sholbach: it is essential that the name of the directory matches the name in the index.theme file - that is how the names of the themes are done - if you change the directory name you must also change the name of the gtk theme in dirname/index.theme
[04:30] <Who_> dholbach: it is essential that the name of the directory matches the name in the index.theme file - that is how the names of the themes are done - if you change the directory name you must also change the name of the gtk theme in dirname/index.theme
[04:31] <lapo_> tangerine and tango-icon-theme follow the tango style guidelines, so for an original theme we could just ship a minimal set of icons (let's say folders, trashbin, and some other random stuff) done following the guidelins
[04:31] <lapo_> and iherits the rest from tango or tangerine
[04:32] <z_diver> lapo: That's a nice idea.
[04:32] <lapo_> something similar to what windows95 plus pack did
[04:32] <lapo_> z_diver: it is what we will be do for gnome themes probably
[04:33] <dholbach> Who_: according to the quick look I had on the gconf keys, it's the name - but i'm sure at some point it needs to be resolved to the directory it's in. so better not mess with it now.
[04:33] <z_diver> lapo: for all of them
[04:33] <dholbach> please drop me a mail with all the icon decisions for the themes and i'll get it done with the next upload.
[04:33] <lapo_> surelly "crux refresh" I'm working on with thos will use a minimal set of tango style icons
[04:33] <Who_> dholbach: ok
[04:34] <lapo_> well the "crux refresh" thos is working is more correct :-)
[04:35] <z_diver> lapo: but the four themes listed above will be complete won't they?
[04:36] <lapo_> z_diver: dunno about those theme sorry
[04:36] <bersace> dholbach: about g-e-pixbuf, is ubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-artwork that actually need it ?
[04:36] <Who_> lapo:I have IconTheme=Tangerine in my metatheme but it seems not to work, any ideas?
[04:37] <Who_> lapo: my mistake" I don't have them installed!
[04:37] <dholbach> bersace: i'll think about it
[04:39] <z_diver> Is it true that tango, tangerine, human and gnome icon sets are to be included in full?
[04:39] <Who_> ok - anyone ready to test these themes? I need an opinion on whether Tangerine is OK with Gray too, not just to know if they work
[04:40] <z_diver> Who_: I have about 5 minutes ;)
[04:40] <Who_> okay :)
[04:41] <z_diver> Who_: are you sending somethign or do you want me to test what I have here.
[04:41] <Who_> I am sending...
[04:42] <Who_> My current thinking is that GrayXT looks better with Gnome icons than Tangerine - opinions?
[04:44] <Who_> Anyone?
[04:45] <bersace> Who_: wait
[04:46] <z_diver> Who_: Something should change.
[04:46] <Who_> z_diver: go on...
[04:46] <z_diver> Who_: I think the window border is too light and doesn't stand out
[04:47] <z_diver> Who_: I'll test with the gnome icons now.
[04:47] <z_diver> Who_: I do like the Industial with Tango.  Nice.
[04:48] <Who_> dholbach: urrm... I assume neither tango-silicon nor Gion icons are included either - I just checked the other that are supposed to be included, Dapper-Drake uses Gion and Silicon uses Tango-Silicon... :S
[04:48] <dholbach> urg urg urg
[04:48] <Who_> z_diver: I know we are making changes but I would l;ike to stick to what was voted on as closely as possible...
[04:48] <dholbach> we need this adapted to the "real world"
[04:49] <Who_> dholbach: okay - there is no space for any more icons, right?
[04:49] <z_diver> Who_: I realize that too.  It was just a thought.
[04:49] <dholbach> Who_: no there isn't and I don't have time to package it up for universe or whatever, i'm sorry
[04:50] <z_diver> Who_: I think grey needs some color.  I like the Tangerine icons
[04:51] <Who_> dholbach: OK - just in case - Gion is only a 314 k download (it falls back on to Tango)  - any chance?
[04:51] <dholbach> no, not the time, really
[04:51] <Who_> dholbach: shall I get those in IRC to choose an icon set already included for each theme or do we need to axe a theme or two?
[04:51] <dholbach> it takes time to get it 1) packaged, 2) approved as a package including licensing etc, 3) to get it through security review, 4) approved for main, 5) added to the seeds (to appear in ubuntu-desktop
[04:51] <z_diver> dholbach: Which brings up the point that Dapper-Drake needs Gion
[04:52] <dholbach> there's no time for new icon themes, really not
[04:52] <troy_s> greetz all.
[04:52] <z_diver> dholbach: So that nees to be changed too.  BVC will want to choose it.
[04:52] <dholbach> so either you decided on a theme, which looks good or you axe it
[04:52] <dholbach> it's your call
[04:53] <z_diver> I think we understand that now
[04:53] <dholbach> and I know it makes people unhappy, but that's how life is ~2 days before relase
[04:53] <dholbach> and i'm very busy
[04:53] <dholbach> really
[04:53] <dholbach> sorry.
[04:53] <bersace> Who_: about Gray, maybe Tango-noir :)
[04:53] <Who_> troy_s: we are having a bit of a crisis - no space for new icon themes so either we axe a theme or assign an icon set out of Tango, Tangerine, Human or Gnome to apply to theme
[04:54] <Who_> dholbach: I think we all know this is really our fault for not getting things done sooner :)
[04:54] <bersace> Who_: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=38964
[04:54] <dholbach> Who_: thanks.
[04:54] <troy_s> hrm...
[04:54] <troy_s> axe a theme then
[04:54] <Who_> bersace: it is _really_ clear there is _NO way_ we can inlude new icons ...
[04:54] <dholbach> I don't want to appear with a picture on the art team's dart board. :-)
[04:54] <troy_s> daniel, everyone knows or should know that you work like a bloody dog.
[04:55] <Who_> dholbach: since we haven't even made a debs for our themes I think that would ba a bit rich
[04:56] <troy_s> so the options are axe or borrow?
[04:56] <z_diver> troy_s: pretty much
[04:56] <bersace> Who_: of course.
[04:57] <Who_> so people: the themes we currently have problems with are Dapper-Drake and Silicon What are we going to do?
[04:57] <Who_> Silicon is Mikkel, Dapper Drake is Billy, I believe...right?
[04:57] <z_diver> troy_s: bvc is going to want to pick for Dapper I bet
[04:57] <z_diver> Who_: right
[04:58] <troy_s> squeaky wheels always prevail for some reason.
[04:58] <troy_s> had we had launchpad in order
[04:58] <Who_> well we have very limited time - can we get hold of bvc so quickly?
[04:58] <Who_> troy_s: later! we need to work this out now
[04:58] <troy_s> we could have it polled and done.  but now it is going to seem a little undemocratic.  this leads me to believe that once again,
[04:59] <troy_s> well just vote.
[04:59] <bersace> troy_s: dapper is not democratic, edgy will
[04:59] <troy_s> it's not terribly democratic, but daniel needs a solution
[04:59] <bersace> :)
[04:59] <bersace> drop unusable theme
[04:59] <Who_> So: Dapper-Drake who votes to axe it, who votes for new icons?
[04:59] <troy_s> bersace:  at our current structure level, it is going to be the same
[04:59] <troy_s> axe
[04:59] <troy_s> two votes for axe
[04:59] <Who_> axe
[04:59] <troy_s> three votes for axe
[04:59] <troy_s> who else is alive?
[04:59] <z_diver> axe wht
[05:00] <z_diver> We still need to pick themes
[05:00] <z_diver> or at least icons themes
[05:00] <Who_> axe Dapper-Drake cos it has no icons
[05:00] <troy_s> axe
[05:00] <z_diver> What do we have left?
[05:00] <troy_s> yes... go with the ones that are most complete seems to make the most sense
[05:00] <Who_> sorry troy_s - I was explaining to z_diver
[05:00] <troy_s> who:  with you brother.
[05:01] <Who_> Now Silicon: I propose we keep but use Human or Gnome icons
[05:01] <z_diver> Dapper can use Human icons
[05:01] <Who_> too bright?
[05:01] <bersace> Resilience is not shipped
[05:01] <troy_s> someone mock up a quick wiki
[05:01] <troy_s> or at least provide links.
[05:02] <troy_s> someone got the links?  i am half baked awake here... morning.
[05:02] <z_diver> I'm on my way to work so I can't do it.
[05:02] <z_diver> I'll vote if there is a change
[05:02] <z_diver> chance
[05:02] <Who_> ok. I'll get a wiki page up
[05:03] <bersace> Silicon is not shipped too .
[05:03] <bersace> :S
[05:03] <z_diver> I thought I saw both Silicon and Resilience
[05:03] <troy_s> erk!
[05:03] <troy_s> well what way are you leaning now z before you are off?
[05:03] <troy_s> at least you had a bit of a say
[05:04] <troy_s> cuz resolution has to happen in how long daniel?  one hour?
[05:04] <troy_s> half hour?
[05:05] <z_diver> I'd like to find appropriate icon sets from the four available, tango, tangerine, humman and gnome and be done with it.
[05:05] <troy_s> dissolving kickstart artwork team now cuz mark added more admins
[05:05] <troy_s> thank god.
[05:05] <z_diver> deleting themes seems like hard on users, while new themes entirely seems like more work.
[05:06] <z_diver> so patch up the ones we have
[05:06] <z_diver> I do have to run.  I'll leave my vote as that.  Good luck.  If I have a chance I'll check back in.
[05:07] <z_diver> AND THANKS TO ALL
[05:12] <troy_s> so everyone is leaving, who you still here bro?
[05:13] <Who_> ok, wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DapperThemes_OLD
[05:14] <Who_> troy_s: we need to make a decision on this really soon so Daniel can package in time
[05:14] <troy_s> yep
[05:14] <troy_s> and the mailing list is going nuts
[05:14] <Who_> nuts?
[05:14] <Who_> what kind of nuts?
[05:14] <troy_s> completely bonkers
[05:14] <troy_s> um like 50 mails
[05:14] <troy_s> in about 3 seconds
[05:15] <Who_> I haven't got them yet!
[05:15] <Who_> in response to my email?
[05:16] <troy_s> i will launchpad
[05:16] <troy_s> the poll...
[05:16] <troy_s> is it as you have it there who?
[05:17] <troy_s> for what it is worth, even though it won't get done correctly...
[05:17] <Who_> can you link me?
[05:18] <troy_s> hold.
[05:18] <Who_> Troy: I see no mails to the list about it...? maybe gmail is slow?
[05:18] <troy_s> who
[05:18] <troy_s> can you tell me:
[05:19] <troy_s> we must axe how many
[05:19] <troy_s> and how many stay?
[05:19] <troy_s> quick... i want to get it up.
[05:19] <troy_s> Who?
[05:19] <Who_> we need to axe none! we need to decde which icons to apply to each theme
[05:20] <Who_> or to axe them
[05:20] <Who_> look at the wiki page, it more or less explains
[05:22] <Who_> troy_s: are there replies to my email on the mailing list? cos if not then we need to do something - no-one has edited the wiki...
[05:23] <troy_s> dammit
[05:23] <troy_s> this polling thing would be nice if i had like six minutes to get the damn thing out.
[05:23] <troy_s> time issues... working.
[05:25] <troy_s> pascal
[05:25] <Who_> kelpas: Ideas on the themes and icons?
[05:25] <klepas> keep Tango, Tangerine and Human
[05:25] <Who_> I need to do it now cos Daniel needs the decisions and files
[05:25] <klepas> i don't mind about the rest particularly :)
[05:25] <Who_> we do keep the cions we have to apply icons to themes
[05:25] <klepas> and i'm off for some much needed sleep
[05:26] <Who_> okay, can you just add your name to the wiki for each option before you go?
[05:26] <klepas> as it's getting earlier by the minute and i've got classes today :)
[05:26] <klepas> sure
[05:26] <Who_> you know which page?
[05:27] <Who_> troy_s - could you get your name on the wiki too, please?
[05:27] <troy_s> yah...
[05:27] <troy_s> ok it was brutal and it sucks, but launchpad now has a poll listed.
[05:28] <troy_s> lord knows that i was supposed to understand how to to it from the outset with no prior knowledge.
[05:29] <Who_> now we have two polls - does that help?
[05:29] <klepas> and no options :)
[05:29] <klepas> and no permission to add any
[05:30] <klepas> bah
[05:30] <klepas> ah well
[05:30] <klepas> i'll add my name in the wiki
[05:30] <klepas> as i really need to be off
[05:30] <Who_> I still see no options. Can we _please_ just use the wiki for now
[05:30] <bersace> Who_: we vote using the wiki ?
[05:30] <Who_> I'd like it to be like that
[05:30] <klepas> yea
[05:30] <Who_> the wiki works no whereas Launchpad will take some time
[05:30] <klepas> just this one last time
[05:31] <troy_s> launchpad is done
[05:31] <troy_s> not correct
[05:31] <troy_s> but done
[05:31] <troy_s> i guessed on the times...
[05:31] <troy_s> life moves on
[05:31] <troy_s> i at least knew where the hell to go with it.
[05:32] <Who_> Please note that IndustrialInspirate looks really good with Tango :)
[05:32] <troy_s> blah... just make a decision.  daniel needs one.
[05:32] <troy_s> at this point, it is completely throwing darts at a board.
[05:32] <Who_> I have :)
[05:32] <troy_s> (well a little better than that, but alas, crisis)
[05:33] <klepas> what is this T.I.F.O?
[05:33] <bersace> Who_: voted
[05:33] <Who_> troy_s: I'm just trying to sway the directino of your darts :)
[05:33] <Who_> bersace: Thanks :)
[05:33] <bersace> shit
[05:33] <bersace> someone vote during me :)
[05:33] <troy_s> Yah i just put use use use...
[05:33] <troy_s> laf love the wiki for crisis laf.
[05:33] <bersace> klepas !!!!! :)
[05:33] <klepas> sorry, these tables are annoying
[05:34] <klepas> there we go
[05:34] <klepas> :)
[05:34] <klepas> all happy now
[05:34] <Who_> bersace: I can't see your votes yet?
[05:34] <klepas> as i was editig
[05:34] <klepas> bersace: go for it now :)
[05:34] <bersace> :)
[05:34] <troy_s> tables are annoying, but this structure is worse :)
[05:34] <troy_s> see where i was going the last week or so pascal?
[05:35] <troy_s> and finally mark stood up so hopefully people will listen now.
[05:35] <bersace> job done
[05:35] <klepas> :)
[05:35] <Who_> cool
[05:35] <troy_s> poke poke
[05:35] <klepas> alrighty, that's it for me.
[05:35] <troy_s> thanks for at least trying pas.
[05:35] <klepas> huh?
[05:35] <Who_> thanks bersace
[05:36] <bersace> i find that voting with a wiki is quite ugly
[05:36] <klepas> interesting...
[05:36] <klepas> revision problem.
[05:36] <klepas> one moment
[05:36] <klepas> no one editing i hope as i fix a vote
[05:37] <Who_> guys, I have to step out for 15 mins, but I'll be back - I have a feeling it's gonna fall to me to do the final pre-packaging for sending to Daniel (as in I told him I would )
[05:38] <Who_> but I still don't see anything on the ML!?
[05:38] <klepas> well i am off
[05:38] <klepas> sleep
[05:38] <klepas> cheerio folks
[05:38] <Who_> seeya
[05:41] <troy_s> who run with it... at least you are here.
[05:41] <bersace> troy_s: do you wanna icons and hackergotchi for ubuntu-art  on launchpad ?
[05:41] <troy_s> yah i'll get to that...
[05:41] <troy_s> scrambling... must make coffee for wifey
[05:42] <bersace> Who_: hh ! : http://wikipoll.free.fr/mediawiki-1.6.5/index.php?title=Main_Page
[05:44] <troy_s> well this sucks
[05:45] <troy_s> i can' t add ubuntu-art mailing list as a contact until it gets confirmed... and i think the spam trap caught it.
[05:45] <troy_s> grr.
[05:47] <bersace> i also tryed it for ubuntu-artwork :)
[05:47] <troy_s> did the spam trap catch it ber?
[05:48] <bersace> yes
[05:48] <troy_s> feck
[05:48] <bersace> i never received any mail
[05:48] <troy_s> welp pretty sure that henrik can force it.
[05:49] <troy_s> needless to say, we are going to need more admins...
[05:50] <bersace> i think so
[05:50] <bersace> admin can't make admin ...
[05:51] <troy_s> i think they can
[05:51] <troy_s> actually...
[05:51] <bersace> troy_s: all you want : http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/Ubuntu/Artwork/Team/
[05:52] <troy_s> nope
[05:52] <troy_s> yer right
[05:52] <troy_s> only owner
[05:52] <bersace> hh
[05:52] <troy_s> and our owner is a little ... lax
[05:52] <troy_s> thanks ber...
[05:56] <troy_s> etienne
[05:56] <troy_s> can you update the wiki link to point to the ubuntu-art launchpad team now
[05:56] <troy_s> i obsoleted the other one
[05:56] <troy_s> although more work needs to be done of course.
[05:57] <bersace> k
[05:58] <bersace> troy_s: avoid "here" link every were
[05:59] <bersace> people have to read entire sentense in order to understand the links
[05:59] <bersace> that's anoying
[05:59] <bersace> and google don't read the sentences before "here"
[06:05] <Who_> tory_s: Can I confirm something please: I ahve had 1 reply to the mail Urgetn: Themes and Icons - hoave you had loads?
[06:06] <Who_> troy_s: see above - typo on the name :)
[06:11] <bersace> troy_s: Mark set 3 administrator. They seems to be that core of Art Team Leader
[06:11] <bersace> don't expect more admins :)
[06:12] <troy_s> well i asked him
[06:12] <troy_s> because let's see... i don't know franks aptitude with launch tech etc
[06:12] <troy_s> joel is ...?
[06:12] <troy_s> and i am a busy bugger.
[06:12] <troy_s> so we need more.  period.
[06:13] <troy_s> who:  if you package, go with your guts.  less is more.  more is bugs.
[06:13] <bersace> troy_s: we should avoid discussion on wiki
[06:13] <troy_s> it has to get done, and you appear to be in a position to do something about it.
[06:13] <bersace> such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda
[06:13] <troy_s> ber:  we need to formalize in document form how stuffs gets done.
[06:13] <troy_s> that is a paper trail -- it should be a byproduct of the mailing list
[06:14] <bersace> That's really annoying
[06:14] <troy_s> yah but it needs to be documented and centralized.  everyone has been very nonchalant about the whole mess up to mark stepping in and saying we need guidelines etc...
[06:14] <troy_s> something i have been harping on for oh... a while.
[06:16] <bersace> troy_s: yes, i also ask for guideline for some weeks ago ...
[06:16] <Who_> OK, I'm gonna do the packaging in 20 mins
[06:17] <Who_> I think we all knew we need a clear leader - I think Mark thought Joel was the leader
[06:17] <troy_s> joel is not the leader, he is the owner of the launchpad team
[06:17] <troy_s> if you do a little leg work you can see that...
[06:18] <Who_> megabyte405: anything to say on the Icons/Thmese front
[06:18] <troy_s> and owners (if you run a test team) have ultimate control over the team
[06:18] <megabyte405> I'm updating now to see waht they look like
[06:18] <megabyte405> that's why I came in
[06:18] <troy_s> icons/themes are a lot of work.  we need to target things specifically.
[06:18] <Who_> troy_s: yea, I know that! I just think Mark saw him as the leader of the team...
[06:18] <troy_s> who:  i don't believe so.
[06:18] <troy_s> who:  mark has been harping on about leadership now for a while, and NOTHING has gotten done.
[06:19] <Who_> updating isn't going to work, there is a big bug that we will sort out at the same time as fixing the icons problem
[06:19] <troy_s> I tried to restructure the wiki a little better and the only things I see for it in the mailing list is gripes from b.
[06:19] <troy_s> meaning we need design docs
[06:19] <troy_s> and an orderly way to get things put on the mailing list etc...
[06:19] <Who_> troy_s: ahh, well ok then - I only joined about 3 months ago, maybe fewer...
[06:19] <troy_s> ok outt for family.
[06:20] <Who_> megabyte405: have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DapperThemes_OLD
[06:20] <megabyte405> it would be really great if there actually was an orgazational structure - using launchapd and whatever tools we haven't so it's not a freeforall for 5 months - I know someone mailed against that idea, but i think it's quite important.
[06:20] <megabyte405> yeah
[06:21] <dinda> <-- new member hoping to help next time around :)
[06:21] <troy_s> yep
[06:21] <troy_s> in a community
[06:21] <troy_s> EVERYONE contributes
[06:21] <troy_s> a little
[06:21] <troy_s> i am going to be too busy to keep everyone on the same page.
[06:22] <troy_s> but i will hopefully get a few fundamental docs in place
[06:22] <troy_s> everyone right now can help out by shushing and trying to at least attack a few tasks on the tasks page
[06:22] <troy_s> because i can't do that work, so i need help.
[06:22] <troy_s> deal?
[06:22] <troy_s> that means everyone in here steps up and does some work.
[06:22] <troy_s> thanks for your help.
[06:23] <troy_s> (legwork thru mailing list would be a good start)
[06:23] <troy_s> then at least we have centralized a few items.
[06:23] <megabyte405> still care for any thoughts on the themes here quickly?
[06:23] <troy_s> themes?
[06:23] <troy_s> in what respect?
[06:23] <troy_s> they are a huge deal
[06:23] <megabyte405> the icon sets
[06:23] <troy_s> well hopefully we can attack them in detail with a little more structure.
[06:23] <Who_> yeas please :)
[06:24] <megabyte405> industrialinspirate == industrialXT?  if so, then tango
[06:24] <Who_> cool
[06:24] <Who_> megabyte504: can you add your names to the wiki page?
[06:24] <megabyte405> ok
[06:24] <Who_> troy: about the close icon bug, the icond dude (canonical hired) will deal with it
[06:25] <Who_> the website should be dealt with by submissions to Henrik who who will chose what he wants
[06:31] <Who_> megabyte405: you done?
[06:31] <megabyte405> just about
[06:31] <Who_> megabyte405: I see no votes but I'm gonn have to make the packages very soon
[06:31] <megabyte405> just hit save
[06:32] <Who_> megabyte405: sorry to push you - but I feel sorry for Daniel who has to package iot before release!
[06:32] <troy_s> add your names to launchpad
[06:32] <troy_s> as well
[06:32] <megabyte405> Yeah, I know
[06:32] <megabyte405> Just got up
[06:32] <troy_s> daniel does a ridiculous amount of work
[06:32] <megabyte405> yeah, did so already
[06:32] <troy_s> we also need to locate people who can pacakge
[06:32] <troy_s> who you know what youa re doing
[06:32] <troy_s> so maybe start documenting HOW you do it in the wiki in content
[06:32] <troy_s> i'll edit it later.
[06:32] <troy_s> okie?
[06:32] <megabyte405> there it's all up
[06:33] <Who_> lol, I'm making theme tarballs, not deb packages :)
[06:34] <Who_> but I can write up how to do that, though there are lots of good tutorials I could link to
[06:34] <troy_s> well no one knows how
[06:34] <troy_s> and there wont be one person who can do it
[06:34] <troy_s> i dont mind editing
[06:34] <troy_s> even how to tarball is handy
[06:34] <troy_s> people need knowledge to particpate
[06:35] <troy_s> like even i don't know what composes a theme in total, so maybe list the items?
[06:35] <Who_> okie, after I've done these
[06:35] <troy_s> great
[06:36] <troy_s> and _that_, as insignificant as it seems, is progress
[06:36] <Who_> megabyte405: lol, look what you've done! it's a draw for Silicon and Dapper Drake. We're gonna have to wait for another voter
[06:36] <megabyte405> oops
[06:36] <megabyte405> I didn't think it was going to be a draw...
[06:36] <Who_> lol - worry not :)
[06:36] <megabyte405> let me look again
[06:37] <Who_> I think it's best we just wait - no need to change
[06:37] <bersace> Who_: i may change my mind if needed :)
[06:37] <megabyte405> oh, yeah, sure enough
[06:37] <megabyte405> I didn't really pay attention to the axe column, since I think they are nice themes
[06:37] <Who_> well, give it 5 mins
[06:38] <Who_> dholbach: you still around?
[06:40] <dholbach> yes, but incredibly busy
[06:40] <troy_s> don't think about nice
[06:41] <troy_s> think about hte implications if we stick things in that are untested
[06:41] <troy_s> my humble 2 pennies
[06:41] <troy_s> bugs come up, and we all look bad ...
[06:41] <troy_s> it is better to include nothing and have it work than much and cause problems for the next cycle doing nothing but fixing.
[06:42] <Who_> dholbach: how is it easiest for me to give you the fixed themes, as one tarball with the folder structure that needs to be in /usr/share/themes already there or as individual theme tarballs?
[06:42] <dholbach> fixed themes?
[06:43] <Who_> dholbach: the them files with the icons that we don't have changed
[06:43] <Who_> dholbach: getting rid of the references to icons we don't have and replacing theme with ones we do
[06:43] <dholbach> yeah send me a tarball
[06:47] <bersace> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ship-selected-desktop-theme
[06:56] <Who_> OK, I'd love it if someone could test these fixed up themes for me
[06:57] <Who_> They work here but this is a get-it-right-first time situation!
[06:58] <Who_> troy_s or bersace, want to change your vote for DapperDrake to swing it either to axing, Human or Tango?
[06:58] <bersace> Tango
[06:58] <Who_> ok
[06:58] <bersace> ah no
[06:59] <bersace> this is for Silicon
[06:59] <bersace> Who_: I change for Silicon to Tango
[06:59] <troy_s> treat all my votes towards axeing
[06:59] <troy_s> period
[06:59] <troy_s> too little too late
[06:59] <troy_s> hopefully that swings it.
[06:59] <Who_> troy_s: you just created anoter draw on Dapper Drake
[07:00] <bersace> i updated my vote
[07:00] <bersace> on the wiki
[07:00] <Who_> thanks
[07:00] <troy_s> who's doing the work, he is the final arbitrator
[07:00] <Who_> bersace:not for DapperDrake, I fear
[07:01] <troy_s> the default install is the most important
[07:01] <bersace> i just changed Silicon
[07:01] <troy_s> and it is there.
[07:01] <troy_s> the rest are on the periphery
[07:01] <bersace> i still want to drop DapperDrake
[07:01] <Who_> okay, troy does to so it's going bye-bye
[07:01] <Who_> bvc will _not_ be happy
[07:01] <troy_s> life moves on
[07:01] <bersace> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DapperThemes_OLD?action=diff&rev2=17&rev1=16
[07:01] <troy_s> i would rather have NONE at half ass
[07:02] <troy_s> than sixteen
[07:02] <bersace> Who_: viper550 is also unhappy, i guess
[07:02] <Who_> why? was it his?
[07:02] <troy_s> its too fricking late to be worrying abou tfeelings
[07:02] <troy_s> we need decisiveness at this point
[07:02] <bersace> ^^
[07:03] <troy_s> whatever is 'close' we run with who...
[07:03] <troy_s> you are doing the work, so put aesthetic judgement aside and figure out what is close to 'finished'
[07:03] <Who_> troy_s: if you stand up for that on the list, I'll go with it
[07:03] <troy_s> and use that as a final arbitrating vote.
[07:03] <troy_s> i'll back any decision you make
[07:03] <troy_s> if you think they aren't finished
[07:03] <troy_s> leave them out
[07:03] <troy_s> if you think they are
[07:03] <troy_s> then go with it.
[07:03] <troy_s> we need some bloody democracy
[07:03] <troy_s> and YOU are doing the work.
[07:04] <bersace> i revert my vote
[07:04] <bersace> :D
[07:05] <bersace> note that according to Mark, we should consider the vote of leader weighted than others
[07:06] <troy_s> we don't have a leader
[07:08] <Who_> bersace: can I get this clear, you want to get rid of silicon, cos that is one of the ones that looks better now
[07:08] <bersace> Who_: sorry for confusion
[07:09] <bersace> troy_s: we have 3 leaders
[07:09] <bersace> the 3 admin mark select
[07:09] <bersace> troy_s: you included !
[07:09] <bersace> Who_: i want to drop Silicon because it does not have decent icon set
[07:09] <Who_> okay
[07:11] <bersace> according to https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art, our core team leader are Andreas, Frank and Troy
[07:11] <bersace> That is the sabdfl choice :)
[07:12] <Who_> I think after the meeting he will fix it to the leaders we as a team choose
[07:12] <troy_s> mark has been clear
[07:12] <troy_s> he wants the organization and structure to come OUT of the community
[07:12] <troy_s> he won't do the dictator thing unless it is causing him grief
[07:12] <troy_s> which today, hit a hilt regarding this issue.
[07:13] <troy_s> I consider myself as nothing more than an admin on launchpad, and i have already made it clear that we need more.  
[07:13] <troy_s> THAT said
[07:13] <troy_s> we are in a crunch
[07:13] <troy_s> and unfortunately, as the guy who is packaging.
[07:13] <troy_s> and willing ot package
[07:13] <troy_s> who you get a pretty big vote.
[07:14] <troy_s> ber has made his thoughts clear... pascal had a vote. etc
[07:14] <troy_s> unfortunately, due to lack of structure, it is going to be flawed.  period.
[07:15] <troy_s> we just need to run with what we have and work from there.  that's all there is to it.
[07:15] <troy_s> who:  whats the current state of affairs ?
[07:15] <troy_s> how many 'extra' themes are going in?
[07:17] <bersace> Who_: ok, to solve the problem, i switch to Tango for DapperDrake
[07:17] <Who_> 5, Indust, HumanLegacy, Resilience, Gray, Dapper
[07:17] <troy_s> et, can i edit your spec at some point?
[07:18] <troy_s> this has nothing to do with the default desktop everyone is faced with correct?  these are purely additionals.
[07:18] <troy_s> ???
[07:21] <troy_s> et that spec is a too loose and too hastey
[07:21] <troy_s> i think we shouldn't start submitting specs just quite yet.  wiki your thoughts first then draft.
[07:24] <dholbach> once you are happy with all your changes, can you send me a tarball with all of that?
[07:24] <dholbach> that'd be really nice
[07:25] <Who_> dholbach: it'll be there in 5 mins
[07:25] <Who_> or let me say 30 and have some more checking (testing) time with the group :)
[07:26] <dholbach> ok
[07:27] <Who_> please can someone here volunteer to test these packages!
[07:27] <Who_> (not packages, but you all know what I mean)
[07:28] <troy_s> Who:  thank you very much for pacakging that up
[07:28] <troy_s> you stepped up when others just bickered.
[07:28] <troy_s> we will simply need to deal with the bugs as they flow now.
[07:40] <Who_> billy doesn't seem to understand I'm including Dapper!
[07:41] <troy_s> billy is 
[07:41] <troy_s> a lot of mail
[07:42] <troy_s> this is brutal.
[07:45] <bersace> troy_s: sorry, i was at diner
[07:45] <Who_> did you read Billy's 'attack' on me - didn't appreciate that - made it private at first then public!
[07:45] <bersace> troy_s: i remove that specs
[07:46] <bersace> uggh
[07:46] <bersace> that's seems not possible :(
[07:46] <bersace> i downgraded it to braindump
[07:48] <Who_> bersace: can you test this theme tarball I have?
[07:48] <bersace> where to download ?
[07:48] <troy_s> who:  dude i have a mailbox full
[07:49] <bersace> lol
[07:49] <troy_s> who:  use your sense of ubuntu spirit to make the best decision
[07:49] <troy_s> NO in their right mind is going to fault you because you decided to show up for work.
[07:49] <troy_s> i am trying to figure out launchpad and negotiate a family / career
[07:51] <troy_s> who:  you are dealing with it very gracefully.  just keep it up.  we need supporters not f*cking detractors.
[07:51] <troy_s> who:  it is all fine and dandy to have really lovely opinions and flood the mailing list, but if you don't ultimately put up -- shut up.
[07:54] <Who_> troy_s: lol. I'm just checking it :)
[07:56] <bersace> Who_: where is that tarballs ?
[07:56] <Who_> I'm about to email them...sorry] 
[07:56] <bersace> ok
[07:58] <Who_> on the list
[08:02] <bersace> Who_: yes !
[08:02] <bersace> that's quite good !
[08:06] <Who_> so it works, properly, all themes?
[08:06] <Who_> cos I'll email Daniel then
[08:08] <msikma> Finally home
[08:08] <bersace> yes
[08:08] <msikma> So what's the word? Has the themes thing been resolved?
[08:08] <msikma> Has LegacyHuman been accounted for?
[08:09] <bersace> yes
[08:09] <bersace> nice to see it again :)
[08:09] <msikma> Wow, that's incredible. Awesome work, those of you who got the job done. :)
[08:10] <Who_> msikma, I'd love it if you could try out the theme packages I just sent to the list, as many computers as poss is better - it would be really hasslesome to have to fix typos this late :)
[08:11] <msikma> I'll try to help, but I haven't even had the time to grab the latest RC yet... and I still have something to finish. I'll grab the RC now and then get the themes tonight.
[08:13] <Who_> well, they can be tested without rc - as in, it is just a tar.bz2 that I am about to email to Daniel with the folder structure to go in /usr/share/themes
[08:14] <msikma> Ah, right. Well, then I'll just fire up my old laptop that's running Breezy.
[08:14] <Who_> msikma: (beware of not having Ubuntulooks)
[08:18] <troy_s> greets mich
[08:23] <troy_s> ok guys read that mail
[08:23] <troy_s> i just posted it to the list...
[08:23] <troy_s> i had to happen, sorry.
[08:23] <troy_s> it had to happen.
[08:32] <bersace> troy_s: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art/+edithackergotchi to add the big logo
[08:33] <troy_s> ber: okie.
[08:33] <troy_s> where is the image?
[08:34] <troy_s> etienne?
[08:35] <bersace> troy_s: i sent you the link earlier
[08:35] <bersace> http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/Ubuntu and follow links
[08:35] <troy_s> and et, I can't seem to find a way to get rid of the double ubuntuwiki crap at the top of launchpad
[08:36] <troy_s> nor how to send mail to everyone without having that damn email approved... grr... 
[08:36] <troy_s> cool thanks for the links... i'll add em
[08:37] <troy_s> done et.
[08:38] <bersace> troy_s: try /+edithomepage
[08:38] <bersace> for double links.
[08:41] <Who_> I'm sending to Daniel now
[08:42] <troy_s> ???
[08:42] <troy_s> ber?
[08:42] <troy_s> nice work who!
[08:44] <troy_s> christ i am not going to have a family after this.  we _really_ need to decide on who else is going to administer the launchpad site... frank and joel haven't checked in frequently enough.
[08:44] <bersace> re
[08:44] <troy_s> bersace thanks for your streamlining of the wiki stuff.
[08:44] <troy_s> it looks terrific... short and clean
[08:44] <troy_s> very nice.
[08:45] <bersace> you should really avoid those here link
[08:45] <troy_s> try to keep internal wiki refs to [wiki:Self]  format as opposed to external links.
[08:45] <Who_> dholbach: Themes in your inbox, ready to go.
[08:45] <troy_s> why?
[08:45] <troy_s> oh
[08:45] <troy_s> i see
[08:45] <dholbach> Who_: thanks
[08:45] <Who_> dholbach: Thanks a lot, no photos on any dartboards, we promise
[08:45] <troy_s> you mean include greater information where they link
[08:45] <troy_s> daniel you rock
[08:45] <troy_s> appreciate all of your hard work to make ubuntu what it is.
[08:45] <dholbach> thanks guys.
[08:46] <dholbach> you rock too and in Edgy you'll have all the time and space to freak out
[08:46] <dholbach> and do whatever you like :)
[08:46] <Who_> right. Time for a break! see you all soon
[08:46] <Who_> bye. Thanks all
[08:47] <bersace> troy_s: links MUST be meaning ful or else, people have to read the contextual text to understand the link when they do not read the entire page
[08:47] <dholbach> thanks
[08:47] <bersace> Who_: thanks
[08:47] <bersace> troy_s: also, googlebot wants meaningful links
[08:48] <bersace> troy_s: and when you search links with any browser, you do not search "here"
[08:49] <bersace> troy_s: naming pages is also a critical issue in wiki, we should care to have heavy meaningful title
[08:49] <bersace> default search is title search !
[08:49] <bersace> e.g. i don't understand the meaning of ArtworkTeam/Content
[08:50] <bersace> What does that mean ???
[08:50] <bersace> meaningless title lead to mess in wiki
[08:50] <bersace> see all /Content sub pages ...
[08:51] <bersace> What a mess !
[08:51] <bersace> troy_s: do you allow me to rename pages ?
[08:52] <bersace> we should have a ArtworkTeam/Themes pages gathering themes review and projects
[08:52] <bersace> We should have a ArtworkTeam/Guidelines
[08:52] <bersace> That includes DevelopmentProcedure etc.
[08:53] <bersace> troy_s: don't you ?
[08:54] <troy_s> yep
[08:54] <troy_s> agree
[08:55] <troy_s> i just put 'content' there to collect existing pages.
[08:55] <troy_s> its a start, nothing more
[08:55] <troy_s> if you can see better structure, i would do it
[08:55] <troy_s> but try to keep the draft there for now
[08:55] <troy_s> everything else clean up as you can...
[08:55] <troy_s> i agree100% ... the wiki was a bloody outdated mess
[08:55] <troy_s> dapperblahb lahblah edgy blahb lahblahb
[08:55] <troy_s> everything scattered everywhere is useless.
[08:56] <troy_s> you there ber?
[08:56] <troy_s> the way i see it, pages suffer from LACK of contents and subpages listing (tried to establish a template on this)
[08:56] <troy_s> LACk of structure -- ramble on and on and not scannable.
[08:57] <troy_s> LACK of organization structure as you have just noted.
[09:02] <troy_s> u there et?
[09:03] <bersace> re
[09:34] <troy_s> sorry ber.. i was flooding the channel.
[09:35] <bersace> k
[09:46] <bersace> troy_s: Do we still ned the table used for the vote ??
[09:46] <troy_s> probably not... but we need a place
[09:46] <troy_s> to record events as they have transpired...
[09:46] <troy_s> communitychangelog
[09:46] <troy_s> as it were
[10:02] <bersace> where is the mail where sabdfl says it's point of view about the structure of the team ?
[10:03] <troy_s> check the archives
[10:03] <troy_s> at the mailing list signup zone
[10:03] <troy_s> you can search thru the entire month in plain text...
[10:04] <bersace> found https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-May/001673.html
[10:04] <troy_s> i think if you go to 
[10:04] <troy_s> the ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda Pascal has two links.
[10:04] <troy_s> to the mail.
[10:04] <troy_s> it is around there somewhere.
[10:10] <troy_s> Hey etienne
[10:10] <troy_s> Great streamlining.
[10:11] <Who_> troy_s: Mind if I have a look at getting rid of the second wiki link in LP homepage?
[10:11] <bersace> troy_s: if you want to warn me using IRC, type bersace and then xchat-gnome warn me up
[10:11] <bersace> not etienne, et, ber, etc.
[10:11] <bersace> :)
[10:12] <troy_s> cool
[10:12] <troy_s> bersace:  Need links on how to get onto irc, the mailing list, within our wiki
[10:12] <bersace> no
[10:13] <bersace> we should put one for all the wiki
[10:13] <bersace> not just for ArtworkTeam
[10:13] <bersace> and it should already exists
[10:13] <bersace> it might
[10:13] <bersace> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat?action=show&redirect=IRC
[10:14] <troy_s> and the new pages you put in need to have contents and subpages listings to keep it cohesive... namely Guidelines to start.
[10:16] <troy_s> We will also need to get that dev doc in place or _a_ dev doc, so at least make it so people can find it... 
[10:16] <troy_s> So that should be very frontal.
[10:16] <troy_s> No documentation == no progress
[10:16] <bersace> i suggest to add subpages section for subpagesful pages
[10:16] <Who_> bersace + troy_s: I know you've been on this wiki mission for a while now, are you gonna send a list of what you've done to us all - I've rather lost track!
[10:17] <bersace> Who_: just subscribe to wikipages :)
[10:17] <Who_> ohhhhh, cunning :)
[10:17] <bersace> Who_: we will make ArtworkTeam a real homepage
[10:17] <Who_> bersace: (from the wiki or in LP, or what?)
[10:17] <bersace> that guide everyone to the rest of our "webspace"
[10:17] <bersace> Who_: from the wiki
[10:18] <bersace> after Edit
[10:18] <Who_> what's the volume like?
[10:19] <troy_s> Who:  I just tried to root it all, bersace has been doing a lot of the legwork.
[10:20] <bersace> Who_: every edition, you get the diff
[10:20] <bersace> the author
[10:20] <bersace> and the message
[10:21] <troy_s> bersace:  I do think we need to have contents on every page for when the page gets long.
[10:21] <troy_s> and the subpage listing...
[10:22] <bersace> troy_s: i suggest to adde them as page get long but :)
[10:22] <bersace> as needed
[10:22] <bersace> but you can if you want
[10:22] <bersace> no matter
[10:26] <troy_s> let's just keep everything the same.
[10:26] <troy_s> it looks more professional.
[10:26] <bersace> troy_s: i mean that pages without subpages (such as Themes pages) should note haves subpages menus
[10:26] <troy_s> Also, we need to get a design document procedure in place.
[10:26] <troy_s> bersace -- that's fine but if they add one then it is automatically generated...
[10:27] <troy_s> hence putting it in accomodates the future.
[10:27] <troy_s> and thus far, guidelines doesn't encompass tools etc.
[10:27] <troy_s> Look at the document teams page
[10:28] <troy_s> and structure accordingly
[10:28] <troy_s> okie?
[10:30] <Who_> you guys still want a mini guide to writing a meta theme?
[10:31] <bersace> hh : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Themes/Template :)
[10:31] <troy_s> yep
[10:31] <troy_s> we need bloody docs on how to do everything
[10:31] <troy_s> they can evolve into full fledged documentation at some point
[10:31] <bersace> near Tools
[10:31] <troy_s> each thing requires tools, knowledge, etc.
[10:32] <troy_s> Not to mention to locate exactly what package everything belongs in.
[10:32] <troy_s> Tools depends on the target, so each 'target' will need it's own tools link to the tools main page
[10:32] <troy_s> with me?"
[10:32] <troy_s> tools page should have EVERYTHING on it, and anchors for reference from other pages.
[10:33] <Who_> troy_s: I think more constructive is a page of links on how to do it - we need not replicate stuff
[10:33] <bersace> yes
[10:34] <troy_s> who:  EXACTly
[10:34] <bersace> i think that we need a Documentation page
[10:34] <Who_> good call.
[10:34] <troy_s> off root... lets keep it clean.
[10:34] <bersace> which contain guidelines, tools, howto, and so on
[10:34] <Who_> I'm gonna have to take a rest
[10:34] <troy_s> Where is that draft right now bersace?
[10:34] <troy_s> who: ditto.
[10:34] <bersace> troy_s: wich draft ?
[10:34] <bersace> WideTheme ?
[10:34] <bersace> Developement ?
[10:35] <Who_> but on my list I have: New image for Henrik, Doc on how to do things
[10:37] <Who_> bye all
[10:44] <Orro> hey people, im about to start contributing, anybody active here?
[10:45] <bersace> yep
[10:45] <Orro> hi
[10:46] <bersace> our big bosses are troy_s, Frank and Andreas
[10:46] <bersace> currently, troy_s is the most active leader
[10:46] <bersace> i'm hardly workiing a building a real wiki space for ArtworkTeam
[10:46] <bersace> see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam
[10:46] <bersace> and subpages
[10:47] <Orro> i want to get involved with the project, ive just created a contribution for the recent "web page adjustment" - should i just upload my images to the sandbox? or should i clear them with people etc..
[10:47] <bersace> nop
[10:47] <bersace> send it to Henrik
[10:47] <Orro> ok
[10:47] <bersace> Henrik Nilsen Omma <henrik@ubuntu.com>
[10:48] <Orro> thanks ill do that now
[10:49] <bersace> Orro: thanks for you contribution
[10:54] <troy_s> ber, you will need to adjust the wiki to make sure that any existing links below artwork team work properly
[10:54] <troy_s> ;)
[10:54] <troy_s> that's the downside of moving pages.
[11:04] <troy_s> bersace also you will need to provide for drafts of NEW documents... put a place there where you can check and keep order if you are going to try and maintain a wiki structure.  people need to have a place to put fresh things.  put ALL things that haven't been finalized into DRAFTS so that people don't get the wrong impression.  Like WideTheme isn't useful yet, so keep it in drafts
[11:05] <bersace> ok
[11:06] <troy_s> and then you need to proof all your changes and you had better tell the list that you tried to do some structuring... and expect the explosion of backlash... :)
[11:06] <troy_s> 1) make sure all the links work
[11:06] <troy_s> 2) make sure it is clear where people should submit new things and how to do it
[11:07] <troy_s> 3) make sure all the links work :)
[11:07] <troy_s> subpages assumed a certain structure, and when that structure changes, it cascades.
[11:07] <troy_s> the only things that WONT require changes are the tables of contents and the subpages listings.
[11:07] <troy_s> because they are dynamic.
[11:07] <bersace> yep
[11:08] <troy_s> espeically tasks
[11:11] <bersace> troy_s: this is hard work to organise, your review is useful. Don't hesitate to check the link yoursefl
[11:39] <troy_s> bersace:  yeah you get a taste of what happens when things move too quick!
[11:40] <troy_s> bersace:  get it solid now, double check the links.  make sure it is clear from root for first time viewers
[11:41] <troy_s> bersace:  then post and hope that people offer some feedback.  i'll look in a while to see how it has flowed.  i intend on bringing up a list of things with mark in paris.  you should try to attend since you are already in france.
[11:43] <bersace> troy_s: sorry, but now, i work on my project report for school
[11:43] <troy_s> bersace:  first impression, it looks clean off root but where does a new user put the things?  
[11:43] <bersace> Drafts/* :)
[11:43] <troy_s> just a thought.
[11:43] <troy_s> bersace:  great... but you need to let everyone know that off root or wherever... :)
[11:43] <bersace> you can do it
[11:44] <bersace> i'm busy
[11:47] <troy_s> bersace:  where did henriks submissions go?
[11:48] <troy_s> got it.
[11:48] <troy_s> nevermind