=== motin [n=motin@84-217-93-218.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Bilange [n=Warbird@dsl-136-173.aei.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:31] hey guys, are you responsible for the "GreatFeaturesofUbuntu" wiki page by any chance? [12:31] Bilange: yes, we wrote it, although the flash tour has since been put on hold for this release [12:32] okay, in other words, I guess its too late to send suggestions about this, right? [12:32] Bilange: if you send suggestions, they will get taken into account if it gets produced for edgy [12:33] okay :) so, where can I send them? [12:33] Bilange: bottom of the page? [12:34] ah, fine. I thought that if there was no "discussion" section or a /talk subpage, well... discussions would be sent elsewhere [12:34] Bilange: you can add either :) a discussion section sounds good === DBO [n=DBO@cpe-65-185-133-122.twmi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === DBO [n=DBO@cpe-65-185-133-122.twmi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:59] is there a category documentation for IRC ? [12:59] ompaul: what do you mean? [12:59] is there an IRC directory [01:00] I have this kind of thing and want to start a serious cull of duplication https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage [01:02] ompaul: do you mean "is there a category irc"? [01:02] mdke, I suppose I do [01:02] doesn't seem to be [01:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCategory [01:03] thanks [01:04] gotcha [01:04] I'll come back next year :) [01:05] a CategoryIRC might not be a bad idea actually [01:06] yeap, I had misunderstood what Category Documentation was, so I have to change the pages off that to cleanup [01:08] yeah, don't add CategoryDocumentation to something that isn't documentation [01:08] otherwise it will get moved to the new wiki :) [01:11] it is documentation but it needs a "whole lotta love" [01:12] hang on ompaul [01:12] ompaul: what page are you referring to? [01:13] mdke, this and anything that it links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage [01:15] ompaul: right. Just to be clear, the move of wiki documentation is _ALL_ documentation, regardless of quality. So the roughest page is going, and the best. When deciding what to tag with CategoryDocumentation, the question is: is this a help document, or is it a community document? If the former, please tag it with CategoryDocumentation [01:16] and we can have more than one category [01:16] sorry that is a question, too tired to rephase it [01:16] ompaul: yes [01:16] I'm not sure which of the two things that page is === ghee22 [n=Parag@26.muh33.nycm.n54ny31ur.dsl.att.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:17] what it wants to be is a definitive list of things you should look at if you want to know *all* about irc [01:17] yeah, which is partly a community thing [01:18] more like an informed index of the resources you can read about, then the others should stop doing two jobs and it should get nice and neat [01:19] so, you think it should be on the help wiki or the community wiki? [01:20] it is help, as I see it, you usually only want irc if you want to access the irc community for help, direction or participation [01:20] ok, fine by me. Tag it up, and it'll get moved [01:21] thanks [01:30] DBO, are you Jason Smith? [01:30] yeah, he is [01:30] only slightly [01:30] yes I know, i been doing lots of editing [01:30] trying to get KDE working right (KDE is hard to get working with Xgl) [01:31] DBO, on telling people to install, plesae don't use apt-get, simply tell people which packages to install [01:31] Burgundavia, oh that was you who changed that? [01:31] hehehe, ok... [01:31] yep [01:31] I was like "who removed my beautiful cut and paste commands?" [01:31] I also need to clean up the whole sources.list stuff, but I will do that now [01:32] hmmm? [01:33] ok, just dont break anything [01:33] it works with GNOME and Im trying to get it working with KDE [01:33] no, I won't [01:33] merely rewording what you already have there [01:34] Burgundavia, on thats perfectly ok [01:34] bugger, ompaul left [01:34] why cant I use apt-get btw? [01:34] because they can use other ways [01:35] aptitiude, synaptic, etc. === ghee22 [n=Parag@26.muh33.nycm.n54ny31ur.dsl.att.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:40] Burgundavia, yes... but cut and paste... [01:41] DBO, cut and paste is lovely but you are outvoted :) [01:41] haha [01:41] argh, ok, I am half way through birddogging this KDE thing and I gotta run [01:41] this is crap [01:42] yes, KDE is crap :) [01:43] argh, I dont think his GLX is loading... and this is not good === philipacamaniac [n=phliipac@ip68-228-54-18.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === philipacamaniac pings mdke === philipacamaniac pings Burgundavia instead [04:04] hmm [04:05] philipacamaniac: mm? [04:05] I'm looking for more info on the wiki CategoryDocumentation move to help.ubuntu.com [04:06] philipacamaniac: sure. What's on your mind? [04:06] mdke: once everything is moved over, will there be mechanisms for sorting articles by Ubuntu version? [04:07] philipacamaniac: everything will basically be the same as it is now. We can talk about that, but we wanted to take things one step at a time [04:08] mdke: okay, talking about it, there are far too many "Hoary" or "Breezy" specific articles, and others provide methods for several versions [04:08] i agree, we need to sort that out [04:09] we can think about it after the move [04:10] mdke: agreed, I can wait :) , but there is one more - translations [04:10] shoot [04:10] heh [04:10] i mean, go ahead [04:10] oh [04:10] heh [04:11] moin doesn't seem to have many translation-oriented features. I see that you can change the default language in preferences. but where is the process for translating articles? [04:12] you take an article, translate it, and paste it in another page [04:12] we generally prefer translation to go on on a different wiki === mpt_ [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:12] language specific wikis are better [04:12] mdke: agreed, but do you only do English documentation at help.ubuntu.com? [04:13] philipacamaniac: on the wiki, it is mostly English, but some people put other languages there, we can't stop them [04:14] as for the static pages, for 6.06 we are making translations available too, but languages which have their own sites should host their own, if possible [04:14] it's just easier for users to find things. If you're french, you go to ubuntu-fr.org, etc [04:16] i have to sleep [04:16] cya later [04:16] adios === philipacamaniac [n=phliipac@ip68-228-54-18.tc.ph.cox.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:14] I wonder if it's possible to merge/mark duplicate threads on the forum === mpt [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:43] crimsun: delete and lock too? ;-) [06:44] LaserJock: just wondering (unlikely), since I'm about to venture into the forums and triage sound-related bugs [06:45] crimsun: on google groups or digg.com whenever create a topic, it searches for related topics already in existance based on key words.. perhaps this prevent dupes? [06:46] ghee22: no, I'm looking more for functionality like in Debian's BTS or Malone where we can merge duplicate reports [06:46] probably a forum admin's job, though === Madpilot [n=brian@S0106001150603f7d.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:08] hi all [07:10] hey Madpilot [07:10] hi Burgundavia === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === DBO [n=DBO@cpe-65-185-133-122.twmi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@host86-128-13-71.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@S0106001150603f7d.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:49] hmm, laying out text in Inkscape sucks [08:49] too bad scribus has a terrible UI [08:50] for laying out text, it's got a better UI than Inkscape, evidently ;) [08:50] yes, scribus needs a gtk update [08:51] um, it's a KDE app... and the scribus devs have been known to get irritated at "Scribus needs a GTK port" trolls on the scribus ML [08:52] actually, it is a QT app, not a KDE one [08:52] just planning out a "you just Ubuntu" page [08:52] a what? [08:53] a help page with common questions [08:53] designed to be handed out for people who have just received an Ubuntu computer [08:53] nifty. [08:54] great, that's just what we need, another FAQ help page ;-) [08:54] this is designed for print [08:54] a very different beast [08:54] we need more dead-tree products [08:55] and no, it is designed to cover the very basics [08:55] "That is not a cup holder" [08:55] kinda like ESA, but maybe more Q&A? [08:55] currently I only have four topics on it: windows/ubuntu app names, how to install, start menu/app menu and audio video issues [08:55] then a "how do I get more help" [08:55] that seem right for the biggest first four issues? [08:56] you could do pages of Windows->Ubuntu equivilent apps, I'd think [08:56] yep, this is just 5 or 6 big ones [08:57] outlook, IE, MS office [08:57] gaim? === dsas wonders just how many people actually use outlook, over say, hotmail, yahoo and gmail. [08:58] quite a few [08:58] Outlook Express is probably the most common [08:59] I use thunderbird right now but I used to use Outlook Express and most of my family (linux illiterate) do too [08:59] Virusinstall Express ;) [09:00] I thought that was IE [09:00] I know of two people who use a real mail client (got them both to use thunderbird), I need to know more geeks. [09:01] here is the breakdown, afaik [09:01] students: hotmail [09:01] old people: outlook [09:01] geeks: gmail [09:02] yep, but I am exluding them, because they are a known quantity [09:02] bah, real geeks have their own mail server and use mutt ;-) === LaserJock is not a geek apparently, although he does use mutt sometimes [09:03] Maybe my problem is not knowing old people then ;), that and ISPs provide webmail which satisfies the two email using old people I know. === robitaille uses both gmail and mutt.... I guess I'm really a geek... [09:06] robitaille, bonus geek points if you manage to combine the two somehow ;) [09:07] I do that too [09:07] gmail is where my @ubuntu.com goes and all the MLs get procmail+mutt/thunderbird [09:08] Madpilot: it's easy to do via pop. But I prefer the gmail web interface for my home emails since I move between various computers. But at work I use mutt for my work emails === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Bluekuja [n=bluekuja@ubuntu/member/bluekuja] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Bluekuja [n=bluekuja@ubuntu/member/bluekuja] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt__ [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@203.109.220.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=Robert@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=Robert@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@host86-128-13-71.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:58] Hi! A couple quick thoughts: [02:58] * help.ubuntu.com doesn't seem to have a search option. I wonder if it's worth putting a link to google at least or something? [02:59] * Part of the job of the support folks that we've hired is to help write knowledgebase articles based on actual support cases that we get. === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:00] For this, I'm not sure the best way to integrate this into existing documentation efforts. Right now they've posted them to the wiki, but I'd like to actually have a formal knowledgebaseish thing. [03:00] I wrote a spec a while ago for how this could look in launchpad. [03:00] hi guys [03:01] Heya Jerome. === tuxmaniac [n=aanjhan@60.254.67.17] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas_ [n=dean@host86-128-13-71.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:33] did yelp just die? [04:34] jsgotangco: I don't have any toc [04:34] right [04:35] hmm, I just upgraded scrollkeeper and ubuntu-docs I think. [04:35] yeah [04:38] unterminated entity error with /usr/share/yelp/info.xml according to stderr can't see what it is though [04:40] For those types of errors, I usually open it with firefox. [04:40] actually line 32 looks odd, but I have no idea. [04:40] It tends to put a helpful red mark at the broken spot. [04:40] hmm, firefox has no complaints. [04:56] it is probably the scrollkeeper db not being updated durign the actual update [04:56] sometimes it happens === highvoltage [n=Jono@ubuntu/member/highvoltage] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgwork [n=corey@d66-183-174-128.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@mtngprs7.mtn.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-108-85.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bojicas [n=bojicas@217.164.202.25] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz@201.214.84.130] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:08] hi doc people [07:08] jbailey: wiki sounds like a good start. Is everything tagged with CategoryDocumentation? [07:09] mdke: Pretty unlikely so far. [07:09] mdke: I'll ask them about it later. [07:09] I am starting to translate some Edubuntu pages from wiki. highvoltage has already mentioned DocTeam will have another Moin instance for doc only. Good idea, considering the current number of wiki pages. [07:09] jbailey: when the documentation moves wikis, only stuff tagged with CategoryDocumentation gets moved [07:09] Ah, okay. [07:10] So the question for me is how to work with the knowledgebase and the docteam. [07:10] I'd ideally like all the knowledgebase articles to conform to a style, which means an editor. [07:10] So, I was wondering, should I keep my translations under my wiki homepage in the mean time? Also, is there a due date for such new instance? [07:10] I also don't know how likely community contributors are to be. === tuxmaniac [n=aanjhan@60.254.67.17] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:10] jbailey: a human editor you mean? [07:10] mdke: Yeah. [07:10] right, sounds cool [07:11] jbailey: and you're not completely happy with using the wiki? [07:11] mdke: wikis make it very hard to enforce approval through an editor. [07:11] jbailey: moin 1.5.x includes a wysiwyg editor [07:11] I also have some dreams about making annotations specific to releases in case things change over time. === mhz is not insisting in upgrading to 1.5...sorry.../me slaps himself [07:12] mhz: he's not talking about that sort of editor [07:12] And then the dream of making the core knowledge available to derivatives or other distributions, and having distro-specific stuff be all annotations. [07:12] jbailey: so the new wiki will have access control, that can enforce approval [07:12] mdke: That would solve my immediate concern. [07:12] jbailey: just like the website you can have pages which are invisible except to the relevant group [07:12] then when it's approved, you can make it visible [07:12] Especially if I could say, make https://docs.ubuntu.com/knowledgebase/FOO all approve-on-write. [07:13] jbailey: is this not something that would integrate well with existing wiki documentation? you'd want a separate section? [07:14] mdke: so, keep translated pages under my wiki homepage in wiki.edubuntu.org, in tecnocimiento.cl, or in ubuntu-cl.org wiki? [07:14] I don't know that it would integrate well or not. [07:14] mhz: translations generally work better on a specific language website, so I'd suggest ubuntu-cl [07:14] When I think of a knowledgebase, I think of a particular format of: 1) Reduced Question. 2) Recipe answer. [07:14] And so having the style particularily reflect that. [07:15] i think it can integrate [07:15] The rest of our documentation doesn't seem to be targetted at that, but I'm not saying no to anything here. =) [07:15] i like the idea of everything being structured by subject matter, obviously style can vary [07:15] If you're familiar with the old faq-o-matic systems, it's the type of thing I'm thinking of. [07:16] So eventually, we'd need categories, etc. [07:16] I'm not familiar with those systems [07:16] It was wiki style, where people could post questions which would get classified. [07:16] The answers were edittable. [07:16] It's editting intensive, though. [07:17] And they never tended to get high quality like Novell's Technical Information Documents, or Microsoft's Technet. [07:17] what always concerns me is that the documentation retains an obviously accessible structure, I have an allergy to a documentation resource which is structured by style rather than subject matter. So when I see a site which has "Howtos", "knowledgebase", and "FAQs", I know that I won't know where to start looking [07:18] so I always try and push for integrating different styles of documentation [07:19] Yeah. [07:19] jbailey: have you got some examples already we can look at? [07:19] I haven't thought this through enough beyond the fact that technet and Novell's TIDs are really useful. [07:19] Of Ubuntu ones? No. I know Kurt's written a couple, but I haven't looked at them. [07:20] (and don't know which ones they are) [07:20] And we havne't talked about style or anything. [07:20] ok. Certainly try and get them tagged with CategoryDocumentation asap if you think they should be moved with the documentation to the new wiki [07:20] I'm hoping that we can do the move soon [07:20] then we can talk about if and how they can be integrated and so on [07:26] jbailey: as for the search, we didn't have time to work on that, hopefully we can get one in there eventually. [07:26] Sure. That's why I figured maybe an iframe or one of those forms that just takes you to google. [07:27] I used to know how to cook those up, but it's been a couple years since I've done it. [07:27] yeah, it's probably not hard [07:28] but we'd have to add it to all the html docs which are generated from xml [07:29] Nah, just the front page. [07:29] highvoltage: oh, one other thing regarding drupal site, "Related Projects" menu should have Xubuntu too, or not? [07:29] ooops [07:29] sorry, wrong tab channel :) === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-78-135.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-175-89.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jenda [n=jenda@unaffiliated/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-doc === gobbe_ [n=jauroju@korppi.elma.fi] has joined #ubuntu-doc