[12:31] <Bilange> hey guys, are you responsible for the "GreatFeaturesofUbuntu" wiki page by any chance?
[12:31] <mdke> Bilange: yes, we wrote it, although the flash tour has since been put on hold for this release
[12:32] <Bilange> okay, in other words, I guess its too late to send suggestions about this, right?
[12:32] <mdke> Bilange: if you send suggestions, they will get taken into account if it gets produced for edgy
[12:33] <Bilange> okay :) so, where can I send them?
[12:33] <mdke> Bilange: bottom of the page?
[12:34] <Bilange> ah, fine. I thought that if there was no "discussion" section or a /talk subpage, well... discussions would be sent elsewhere
[12:34] <mdke> Bilange: you can add either :) a discussion section sounds good
[12:59] <ompaul> is there a category documentation for IRC ?
[12:59] <mdke> ompaul: what do you mean?
[12:59] <ompaul> is there an IRC directory 
[01:00] <ompaul> I have this kind of thing and want to start a serious cull of duplication https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage 
[01:02] <mdke> ompaul: do you mean "is there a category irc"?
[01:02] <ompaul> mdke, I suppose I do
[01:02] <mdke> doesn't seem to be
[01:03] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCategory
[01:03] <ompaul> thanks
[01:04] <ompaul> gotcha
[01:04] <ompaul> I'll come back next year :)
[01:05] <mdke> a CategoryIRC might not be a bad idea actually
[01:06] <ompaul> yeap, I had misunderstood what Category Documentation was, so I have to change the pages off that to cleanup
[01:08] <mdke> yeah, don't add CategoryDocumentation to something that isn't documentation
[01:08] <mdke> otherwise it will get moved to the new wiki :)
[01:11] <ompaul> it is documentation but it needs a "whole lotta love" 
[01:12] <mdke> hang on ompaul 
[01:12] <mdke> ompaul: what page are you referring to?
[01:13] <ompaul> mdke, this and anything that it links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage
[01:15] <mdke> ompaul: right. Just to be clear, the move of wiki documentation is _ALL_ documentation, regardless of quality. So the roughest page is going, and the best. When deciding what to tag with CategoryDocumentation, the question is: is this a help document, or is it a community document? If the former, please tag it with CategoryDocumentation
[01:16] <ompaul> and we can have more than one category 
[01:16] <ompaul> sorry that is a question, too tired to rephase it
[01:16] <mdke> ompaul: yes
[01:16] <mdke> I'm not sure which of the two things that page is
[01:17] <ompaul> what it wants to be is a definitive list of things you should look at if you want to know *all* about irc
[01:17] <mdke> yeah, which is partly a community thing
[01:18] <ompaul> more like an informed index of the resources you can read about, then the others should stop doing two jobs and it should get nice and neat 
[01:19] <mdke> so, you think it should be on the help wiki or the community wiki?
[01:20] <ompaul> it is help, as I see it, you usually only want irc if you want to access the irc community for help, direction or participation
[01:20] <mdke> ok, fine by me. Tag it up, and it'll get moved
[01:21] <ompaul> thanks
[01:30] <Burgundavia> DBO, are you Jason Smith?
[01:30] <mdke> yeah, he is
[01:30] <DBO> only slightly
[01:30] <DBO> yes I know, i been doing lots of editing
[01:30] <DBO> trying to get KDE working right (KDE is hard to get working with Xgl)
[01:31] <Burgundavia> DBO, on telling people to install, plesae don't use apt-get, simply tell people which packages to install
[01:31] <DBO> Burgundavia, oh that was you who changed that?
[01:31] <DBO> hehehe, ok...
[01:31] <Burgundavia> yep
[01:31] <DBO> I was like "who removed my beautiful cut and paste commands?"
[01:31] <Burgundavia> I also need to clean up the whole sources.list stuff, but I will do that now
[01:32] <DBO> hmmm?
[01:33] <DBO> ok, just dont break anything
[01:33] <DBO> it works with GNOME and Im trying to get it working with KDE
[01:33] <Burgundavia> no, I won't
[01:33] <Burgundavia> merely rewording what you already have there
[01:34] <DBO> Burgundavia, on thats perfectly ok
[01:34] <Burgundavia> bugger, ompaul left
[01:34] <DBO> why cant I use apt-get btw?
[01:34] <Burgundavia> because they can use other ways
[01:35] <Burgundavia> aptitiude, synaptic, etc.
[01:40] <DBO> Burgundavia, yes... but cut and paste...
[01:41] <Burgundavia> DBO, cut and paste is lovely but you are outvoted :)
[01:41] <mdke> haha
[01:41] <DBO> argh, ok, I am half way through birddogging this KDE thing and I gotta run
[01:41] <DBO> this is crap
[01:42] <Burgundavia> yes, KDE is crap :)
[01:43] <DBO> argh, I dont think his GLX is loading... and this is not good
[04:04] <philipacamaniac> hmm
[04:05] <mdke> philipacamaniac: mm?
[04:05] <philipacamaniac> I'm looking for more info on the wiki CategoryDocumentation move to help.ubuntu.com
[04:06] <mdke> philipacamaniac: sure. What's on your mind?
[04:06] <philipacamaniac> mdke: once everything is moved over, will there be mechanisms for sorting articles by Ubuntu version?
[04:07] <mdke> philipacamaniac: everything will basically be the same as it is now. We can talk about that, but we wanted to take things one step at a time
[04:08] <philipacamaniac> mdke: okay, talking about it, there are far too many "Hoary" or "Breezy" specific articles, and others provide methods for several versions
[04:08] <mdke> i agree, we need to sort that out
[04:09] <mdke> we can think about it after the move
[04:10] <philipacamaniac> mdke: agreed, I can wait :) , but there is one more - translations
[04:10] <mdke> shoot
[04:10] <philipacamaniac> heh
[04:10] <mdke> i mean, go ahead
[04:10] <philipacamaniac> oh
[04:10] <philipacamaniac> heh
[04:11] <philipacamaniac> moin doesn't seem to have many translation-oriented features. I see that you can change the default language in preferences. but where is the process for translating articles?
[04:12] <mdke> you take an article, translate it, and paste it in another page
[04:12] <mdke> we generally prefer translation to go on on a different wiki
[04:12] <mdke> language specific wikis are better
[04:12] <philipacamaniac> mdke: agreed, but do you only do English documentation at help.ubuntu.com?
[04:13] <mdke> philipacamaniac: on the wiki, it is mostly English, but some people put other languages there, we can't stop them
[04:14] <mdke> as for the static pages, for 6.06 we are making translations available too, but languages which have their own sites should host their own, if possible
[04:14] <mdke> it's just easier for users to find things. If you're french, you go to ubuntu-fr.org, etc
[04:16] <mdke> i have to sleep
[04:16] <mdke> cya later
[04:16] <philipacamaniac> adios
[06:14] <crimsun> I wonder if it's possible to merge/mark duplicate threads on the forum
[06:43] <LaserJock> crimsun: delete and lock too? ;-)
[06:44] <crimsun> LaserJock: just wondering (unlikely), since I'm about to venture into the forums and triage sound-related bugs
[06:45] <ghee22> crimsun: on google groups or digg.com whenever create a topic, it searches for related topics already in existance based on key words.. perhaps this prevent dupes?
[06:46] <crimsun> ghee22: no, I'm looking more for functionality like in Debian's BTS or Malone where we can merge duplicate reports
[06:46] <crimsun> probably a forum admin's job, though
[07:08] <Madpilot> hi all
[07:10] <Burgundavia> hey Madpilot 
[07:10] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
[08:49] <Burgundavia> hmm, laying out text in Inkscape sucks
[08:49] <Burgundavia> too bad scribus has a terrible UI
[08:50] <Madpilot> for laying out text, it's got a better UI than Inkscape, evidently ;)
[08:50] <Burgundavia> yes, scribus needs a gtk update
[08:51] <Madpilot> um, it's a KDE app... and the scribus devs have been known to get irritated at "Scribus needs a GTK port" trolls on the scribus ML
[08:52] <Burgundavia> actually, it is a QT app, not a KDE one
[08:52] <Burgundavia> just planning out a "you just Ubuntu" page
[08:52] <Madpilot> a what?
[08:53] <Burgundavia> a help page with common questions
[08:53] <Burgundavia> designed to be handed out for people who have just received an Ubuntu computer
[08:53] <Madpilot> nifty.
[08:54] <LaserJock> great, that's just what we need, another FAQ help page ;-)
[08:54] <Burgundavia> this is designed for print
[08:54] <Burgundavia> a very different beast
[08:54] <Madpilot> we need more dead-tree products
[08:55] <Burgundavia> and no, it is designed to cover the very basics
[08:55] <Madpilot> "That is not a cup holder"
[08:55] <LaserJock> kinda like ESA, but maybe more Q&A?
[08:55] <Burgundavia> currently I only have four topics on it: windows/ubuntu app names, how to install, start menu/app menu and audio video issues
[08:55] <Burgundavia> then a "how do I get more help"
[08:55] <Burgundavia> that seem right for the biggest first four issues?
[08:56] <Madpilot> you could do pages of Windows->Ubuntu equivilent apps, I'd think
[08:56] <Burgundavia> yep, this is just 5 or 6 big ones
[08:57] <Burgundavia> outlook, IE, MS office
[08:57] <Madpilot> gaim?
[08:58] <Burgundavia> quite a few
[08:58] <Madpilot> Outlook Express is probably the most common
[08:59] <LaserJock> I use thunderbird right now but I used to use Outlook Express and most of my family (linux illiterate) do too
[08:59] <Madpilot> Virusinstall Express ;)
[09:00] <LaserJock> I thought that was IE
[09:00] <dsas> I know of two people who use a real mail client (got them both to use thunderbird), I need to know more geeks.
[09:01] <Burgundavia> here is the breakdown, afaik
[09:01] <Burgundavia> students: hotmail
[09:01] <Burgundavia> old people: outlook
[09:01] <Madpilot> geeks: gmail
[09:02] <Burgundavia> yep, but I am exluding them, because they are a known quantity
[09:02] <LaserJock> bah, real geeks have their own mail server and use mutt ;-)
[09:03] <dsas> Maybe my problem is not knowing old people then ;), that and ISPs provide webmail which satisfies the two email using old people I know.
[09:06] <Madpilot> robitaille, bonus geek points if you manage to combine the two somehow ;)
[09:07] <LaserJock> I do that too
[09:07] <LaserJock> gmail is where my @ubuntu.com goes and all the MLs get procmail+mutt/thunderbird
[09:08] <robitaille> Madpilot:  it's easy to do via pop.  But I prefer the gmail web interface for my home emails since I move between various computers.  But at work I use mutt for my work emails
[02:58] <jbailey> Hi!  A couple quick thoughts:
[02:58] <jbailey>  * help.ubuntu.com doesn't seem to have a search option.  I wonder if it's worth putting a link to google at least or something?
[02:59] <jbailey>  * Part of the job of the support folks that we've hired is to help write knowledgebase articles based on actual support cases that we get.
[03:00] <jbailey> For this, I'm not sure the best way to integrate this into existing documentation efforts.  Right now they've posted them to the wiki, but I'd like to actually have a formal knowledgebaseish thing.
[03:00] <jbailey> I wrote a spec a while ago for how this could look in launchpad.
[03:00] <jsgotangco> hi guys
[03:01] <jbailey> Heya Jerome.
[04:33] <jsgotangco> did yelp just die?
[04:34] <dsas_> jsgotangco: I don't have any toc
[04:34] <jsgotangco> right
[04:35] <dsas_> hmm, I just upgraded scrollkeeper and ubuntu-docs I think.
[04:35] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:38] <dsas_> unterminated entity error with /usr/share/yelp/info.xml according to stderr can't see what it is though
[04:40] <jbailey> For those types of errors, I usually open it with firefox.
[04:40] <dsas_> actually line 32 looks odd, but I have no idea.
[04:40] <jbailey> It tends to put a helpful red mark at the broken spot.
[04:40] <dsas_> hmm, firefox has no complaints. 
[04:56] <jsgotangco> it is probably the scrollkeeper db not being updated durign the actual update
[04:56] <jsgotangco> sometimes it happens
[07:08] <mhz> hi doc people
[07:08] <mdke> jbailey: wiki sounds like a good start. Is everything tagged with CategoryDocumentation?
[07:09] <jbailey> mdke: Pretty unlikely so far.
[07:09] <jbailey> mdke: I'll ask them about it later.
[07:09] <mhz> I am starting to translate some Edubuntu pages from wiki. highvoltage has already mentioned DocTeam will have another Moin instance for doc only. Good idea, considering the current number of wiki pages.
[07:09] <mdke> jbailey: when the documentation moves wikis, only stuff tagged with CategoryDocumentation gets moved
[07:09] <jbailey> Ah, okay.
[07:10] <jbailey> So the question for me is how to work with the knowledgebase and the docteam.
[07:10] <jbailey> I'd ideally like all the knowledgebase articles to conform to a style, which means an editor.
[07:10] <mhz> So, I was wondering, should I keep my translations under my wiki homepage in the mean time? Also, is there a due date for such new instance?
[07:10] <jbailey> I also don't know how likely community contributors are to be.
[07:10] <mdke> jbailey: a human editor you mean?
[07:10] <jbailey> mdke: Yeah.
[07:10] <mdke> right, sounds cool
[07:11] <mdke> jbailey: and you're not completely happy with using the wiki?
[07:11] <jbailey> mdke: wikis make it very hard to enforce approval through an editor.
[07:11] <mhz> jbailey: moin 1.5.x includes a wysiwyg editor
[07:11] <jbailey> I also have some dreams about making annotations specific to releases in case things change over time.
[07:12] <mdke> mhz: he's not talking about that sort of editor
[07:12] <jbailey> And then the dream of making the core knowledge available to derivatives or other distributions, and having distro-specific stuff be all annotations.
[07:12] <mdke> jbailey: so the new wiki will have access control, that can enforce approval
[07:12] <jbailey> mdke: That would solve my immediate concern.
[07:12] <mdke> jbailey: just like the website you can have pages which are invisible except to the relevant group
[07:12] <mdke> then when it's approved, you can make it visible
[07:12] <jbailey> Especially if I could say, make https://docs.ubuntu.com/knowledgebase/FOO all approve-on-write.
[07:13] <mdke> jbailey: is this not something that would integrate well with existing wiki documentation? you'd want a separate section?
[07:14] <mhz> mdke: so, keep translated pages under my wiki homepage in wiki.edubuntu.org, in tecnocimiento.cl, or in ubuntu-cl.org wiki?
[07:14] <jbailey> I don't know that it would integrate well or not.
[07:14] <mdke> mhz: translations generally work better on a specific language website, so I'd suggest ubuntu-cl
[07:14] <jbailey> When I think of a knowledgebase, I think of a particular format of: 1) Reduced Question. 2) Recipe answer.
[07:14] <jbailey> And so having the style particularily reflect that.
[07:15] <mdke> i think it can integrate
[07:15] <jbailey> The rest of our documentation doesn't seem to be targetted at that, but I'm not saying no to anything here. =)
[07:15] <mdke> i like the idea of everything being structured by subject matter, obviously style can vary
[07:15] <jbailey> If you're familiar with the old faq-o-matic systems, it's the type of thing I'm thinking of.
[07:16] <jbailey> So eventually, we'd need categories, etc.
[07:16] <mdke> I'm not familiar with those systems
[07:16] <jbailey> It was wiki style, where people could post questions which would get classified.
[07:16] <jbailey> The answers were edittable.
[07:16] <jbailey> It's editting intensive, though.
[07:17] <jbailey> And they never tended to get high quality like Novell's Technical Information Documents, or Microsoft's Technet.
[07:17] <mdke> what always concerns me is that the documentation retains an obviously accessible structure, I have an allergy to a documentation resource which is structured by style rather than subject matter. So when I see a site which has "Howtos", "knowledgebase", and "FAQs", I know that I won't know where to start looking
[07:18] <mdke> so I always try and push for integrating different styles of documentation 
[07:19] <jbailey> Yeah.
[07:19] <mdke> jbailey: have you got some examples already we can look at?
[07:19] <jbailey> I haven't thought this through enough beyond the fact that technet and Novell's TIDs are really useful.
[07:19] <jbailey> Of Ubuntu ones?  No.  I know Kurt's written a couple, but I haven't looked at them.
[07:20] <jbailey> (and don't know which ones they are)
[07:20] <jbailey> And we havne't talked about style or anything.
[07:20] <mdke> ok. Certainly try and get them tagged with CategoryDocumentation asap if you think they should be moved with the documentation to the new wiki
[07:20] <mdke> I'm hoping that we can do the move soon
[07:20] <mdke> then we can talk about if and how they can be integrated and so on
[07:26] <mdke> jbailey: as for the search, we didn't have time to work on that, hopefully we can get one in there eventually.
[07:26] <jbailey> Sure.  That's why I figured maybe an iframe or one of those forms that just takes you to google.
[07:27] <jbailey> I used to know how to cook those up, but it's been a couple years since I've done it.
[07:27] <mdke> yeah, it's probably not hard
[07:28] <mdke> but we'd have to add it to all the html docs which are generated from xml
[07:29] <jbailey> Nah, just the front page.
[07:29] <mhz> highvoltage: oh, one other thing regarding drupal site, "Related Projects" menu should have Xubuntu too, or not?
[07:29] <mhz> ooops
[07:29] <mhz> sorry, wrong tab channel :)