[12:09] ogra: is there anything I can do? I mean, we have only few days left and we should have at least seen what this is going to be like [12:09] I mean, I love surprises but not just this kind of. [12:09] nothing anyone can do ... it was a public holiday in uk today, so i couldnt ask silbs for a sample [12:10] hmm... === mhz sighs [12:10] but i dont expect them to look bad [12:10] the last ubuntu CD covers looked all good, it will be the same company i guess [12:11] me neither, but it is killing me the fact that it is almost 1st and we nobody here knows anything about it (not seen it) [12:11] I was planning to invite some journalists for breakfast on the 1st [12:11] and demo edubuntu to them [12:11] cool [12:11] !# [12:11] ogra: Some people juggle geese. Try searching at http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/ [12:11] and i gotta burn and print at least a couple of CDs (7) [12:12] so, if they are ready, I'd like to at least have them ready for print at night time of wednesday. [12:13] OR, it will mean I'll have to add another ToDo to my list :( and design anything for 1st [12:13] but that would mean I'll come up with something totally diff from "official" [12:14] which is not wise in this case [12:14] I guess you understand my point === Amaranth [n=amaranth@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #edubuntu === kelley [n=kelley@hlfxns01bbf-142068207218.dhcp-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #edubuntu === mhz is now known as mhz_away === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-85-40.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #edubuntu === juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #edubuntu === jinty [n=jinty@242.Red-83-49-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #edubuntu === neurogeek [n=neurogee@201.211.8.204] has joined #edubuntu === neurogeek [n=neurogee@201.211.8.204] has joined #edubuntu === jsgAWAY is now known as jsgotangco === bimberi [n=bimberi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.bimberi] has joined #edubuntu === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #edubuntu [02:44] Howdy === SteveCharles [n=steve@ppp-69-223-164-94.dsl.wotnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #edubuntu === mhz_away is now known as mhz === SteveCharles [n=steve@ppp-69-223-164-94.dsl.wotnoh.ameritech.net] has left #edubuntu [] [02:54] I know this is VERY off topic but does anyone here recommends any application for cyber cafes? === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #edubuntu === mhz is now known as mhz_Kids === superset1 [n=smarinel@24-205-231-12.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #edubuntu === mhz_Kids is now known as mhz === superset1 [n=smarinel@24-205-231-12.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #edubuntu === sankarshan [n=sankarsh@nat-pool-bos.redhat.com] has joined #edubuntu === HedgeMage [i=HedgeMag@freenode/staff/HedgeMage] has joined #edubuntu === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu === mhz is now known as mhz_away === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu === LaserJock is now known as Laser_away === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-85-40.houston.res.rr.com] has left #edubuntu [] === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #edubuntu === arkan0x [n=arkan0x@201.215.87.19] has joined #edubuntu === arkan0x [n=arkan0x@201.215.87.19] has joined #edubuntu === sankarshan [n=sankarsh@nat-pool-str.redhat.com] has joined #edubuntu === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu === yvesC [n=yves@zenobi.ycombe.net] has joined #edubuntu [07:25] ogra: did amd64 explode? it looks a wee bit bigger than usual [07:26] (text-install) === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu === bimberi [n=bimberi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.bimberi] has joined #edubuntu === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #edubuntu === bimberi [n=bimberi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.bimberi] has left #edubuntu ["Ex-Chat"] === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #edubuntu === mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage] by ChanServ === yvesC [n=yves@zenobi.ycombe.net] has joined #edubuntu === blue-frog [n=james@88.121.235.101] has joined #edubuntu === juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #edubuntu === JaneW [n=JaneW@dsl-165-124-191.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #edubuntu === Kozuch [n=jan@159.108.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #edubuntu === cbx33 [n=pete@ubuntu/member/cbx33] has joined #edubuntu [09:33] mornin all [09:33] hi === pygi [n=pygi@83.131.252.16] has joined #edubuntu [09:37] hi pygi [09:38] hey cbx33, how are you? :) [09:38] yeh I'm good and yourself? [09:38] working from home today :D [09:38] cbx33, fixing Diva bugs in PlastikExperimental :) [09:39] ooooooooh === cbx33 is setting up an svn webdav server [09:39] hopefully now with ssh [09:39] ssl [09:40] cbx33, do you have a tuto to set up webdav, if yes am interested [09:40] I'll see what I can dig out, we cobbled it toegther last time [09:40] but I will putup a howto when i get a chance [09:40] it's based on the SubVersion page on the wiki [09:40] cbx33, do you have time? [09:40] but the permissions as described ther edon;t work [09:40] we'll probably need help with cookbook [09:40] cool have no problem with webdav and windows but am fighting with webdav and linux [09:41] so we had to install setacl [09:41] pygi, sure [09:41] what's left to do [09:41] still section 5? [09:41] cbx33, nop, sec [09:42] cbx33, 2, 4, 5, 6,7th chapter in Section II [09:42] eeeek [09:42] got the link for the wiki devel page? [09:43] wiki devel page? :-/ [09:43] the page you were putting it all together on [09:43] ;) [09:44] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Worksheet [09:44] This part II needs to be reworked to accomodate Cookbook needs [09:44] cbx33, btw. as soon as Dapper is out, we need to write how to remaster a LiveCD [09:45] pygi, I'll be interested in that one [09:45] cbx33, that's why I am talking about it :) [09:45] cbx33, so could you write those parts in Section II? === BugMaN [n=BugMaN@nat.cabi.uniroma1.it] has joined #edubuntu [09:48] pygi, I'll take a look but I may need a lot of direction [09:48] though I've used LTSP I'll confess I'm no expert [09:48] cbx33, someone just got me a link to what seems to be a good wbedav how-to http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/285 [09:48] should help me.. [09:48] cbx33, just write what you can :) [09:49] blue-frog, the wiki one is much easier [09:49] wiki.ubuntu.com/SubVersion [09:49] i think [09:49] pygi, I certainly [09:50] will do my best [09:50] won't be able to start till a bit later, as I'm supposed to be doing work related work :p [09:51] I will try my upmost to do some later [09:51] cbx33, as long as all is done today, I am happy :) [09:51] ogra, are those isos ready for testing yet? [09:51] do we have these sections from the old cookbook? [09:51] cbx33, nop [09:51] and where is chapter I [09:51] pygi: why would you want to remaster a new CD? [09:51] chapter I will be here as soon as I upload it :P [09:51] jsgotangco, many reasons [09:52] ok nice [09:52] jsgotangco, I would not like that, I would just like we have that on wiki :) [09:52] currently it's based on Hoary or somethin' [09:52] jsgotangco, for example people might like to brand it or include some applications, or even remove some [09:52] cbx33: preseeding [09:52] yup === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #edubuntu === jinty [n=jinty@242.Red-83-49-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #edubuntu === pontifex [n=pontifex@84-45-197-14.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #edubuntu === popey [n=popey@84-45-197-14.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #edubuntu === cbx33 [n=pete@ubuntu/member/cbx33] has joined #edubuntu === pete_ [n=pete@84-45-238-195.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #edubuntu === pete_ is now known as cbx33 [10:59] hi all.... [10:59] i need someone to do me a favour [10:59] hehehe === popey [n=popey@84-45-197-14.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #edubuntu === popeydotcom [n=pontifex@84-45-197-14.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #edubuntu [11:09] ping highvoltage === spacey [n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey] has joined #edubuntu [11:39] jsgotangco, text install amd64 looks fine to me [11:39] (688MB) [11:40] cbx33, the CD builds just started [11:40] ogra, are the iso's ready? [11:40] ok great [11:40] I'll be waiting [11:40] ping me when done [11:40] I can try out the i386 ones [11:40] think we can get a mac out of canonical :p - we need to test ppc more === B4zzA [n=chevron_@dsl-202-72-157-125.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #edubuntu [11:42] we truly doubt that [11:42] if it did, the laptoptestingteam would have one already [11:42] :D [11:42] true [11:42] :p [11:42] dang it [11:42] canonical spent like 30+ laptops and spread it all over the world [11:42] all of em x86 though === cbx33 will petition for an AMD64 and imac [11:43] it will probably happen after eft [11:43] yeh [11:43] since the current team is tied to 3 releases === B4zzA [n=chevron_@dsl-202-72-157-125.wa.westnet.com.au] has left #edubuntu ["Bye] === Phlosten [n=Phlosten@CPE-139-168-86-90.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #edubuntu === Phlosten [n=Phlosten@CPE-139-168-86-90.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has left #edubuntu ["Leaving"] === jsgotangco is now known as MysteriousGEGL === pc22 [n=sadj@222.126.13.162] has joined #edubuntu === pygi [n=pygi@83-131-227-219.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #edubuntu [12:44] ping ogra [12:47] cbx33, pong [12:48] ready yet ? [12:48] :p [12:51] cbx33, watch #ubuntu-devel, then you'll see it :) [12:57] anyone familiar with browser hijackers? [12:59] highvoltage, you have a sec? [01:03] pygi: almost literally, so you'd have to be ultra-quick :) === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #edubuntu [01:03] highvoltage, any news on erasing the product? :) [01:07] ogra, ok [01:07] highvoltage, I have those screenshots I foudn a backup if you are interestred [01:07] it has practically every app [01:18] pygi you got two secs? [01:18] cbx33, sure [01:19] for installation [01:19] why not use gettingstarted? [01:19] cbx33, needs to be reworked [01:19] some stuff goes in separate chapters, bla, bla ;) [01:19] oh [01:20] what format are we writing the cookbook in? [01:20] wiki/docbook/drupal? [01:20] cbx33, gettingstarted is also packaged in edubuntu-docs (a bit hidden in /usr/share/edubuntu-docs/ though) [01:20] ogra, right [01:20] cbx33, wiki [01:21] ogra, is that version from the svn that i worked? [01:21] pygi, ok cool [01:21] so i can create links from the worksheet and work directly there ? [01:21] cbx33, indeed [01:21] cbx33, its the version highvoltage sent me for inclusion with some fixes where i found it necessary [01:22] ok [01:26] ogra, once the Dapper is out I'll need to have a talk to you about few things if you can and want :) [01:27] hehe [01:27] pygi, sure [01:27] pygi, want to learn packaging doc packages ? :P [01:28] ogra, not that :) [01:28] shhh :) [01:28] sad, i was hoping :) [01:29] ogra, don't make me spread the rumour :) [01:29] what rumour :p === cbx33 will learn doc packaging [01:29] cbx33, exactly :) === cbx33 is confused :p === ogra too === ogra thought cbx33 wanted to learn python and app packaging ;) === cbx33 will elarn anything thatwill be of help [01:35] I suppose I try and do too much [01:37] pygi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/Installation [01:37] done === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-85-40.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #edubuntu [01:37] that ok? [01:37] cbx33, yup [01:38] the resolution selection happens only on failures [01:38] I've always seen it :p [01:39] (if the resolution cant be determined by xresprobe because the monitor gives no clear DCC info) [01:39] yeh [01:39] cbx33, youre installing in vmware .. :) [01:39] and on laptops [01:40] widescreen ? [01:41] nope [01:50] pygi: the product? [01:50] pygi, got a few more seconds ? [01:50] highvoltage, did you get my pm? [01:50] highvoltage, ergh, that cookbook thingy we were discussing yesterday? :) [01:50] cbx33: thanks, i'll check your pm for link [01:50] np [01:51] highvoltage, about deleting it from launchpad? [01:51] highvoltage, speak with lp admins? :) [01:52] pygi, need to talk to you about administration Part II [01:52] pygi: still on my todo, have lots of pressing budget issues to sort out with tuxlab team... so things are a bit pressing here [01:52] highvoltage, oki :) [01:52] cbx33, shoot [01:52] what information do you want in there [01:52] creating users [01:53] what else? [01:53] Perhaps Student-Control-Panel usage :) [01:53] iiieeeee [01:53] I've never even used it [01:53] :p [01:54] cbx33, sudo apt-get install ... :) [01:54] hehe [01:54] and all this has to be done by the end of today? [01:54] well, it doesnt need much documentation currently, the two functions it has are pretty obvous :P [01:54] ogra, ok [01:54] installing applications via synaptic etc? [01:55] nope [01:55] via gnome-app-install should be our promoted method [01:55] ok [01:55] i didn't know what we were pushcing [01:55] seeing as I apt-get everything [01:55] but thats already covered in the ubuntu desktop guide i think [01:56] but it probably should be in cookbook for completeness [01:56] cbx33, that by the end of that? [01:56] don;t you think? [01:56] thats nothing :) [01:56] I have lot more to do by end of day :P [01:56] pygi, iwas saying it was a small amount [01:56] I was saying it was a large amount [01:56] cbx33, hehe : [01:57] just so I know what to write about..... [01:57] I can't promise the world pygi but I can promise to try [01:57] if you have other people who want to do the sections give it to them :) [01:57] but I will attempt to get as much done as I can === ajayc [i=Ajay@59.93.196.72] has joined #edubuntu [01:59] ogra, do you need to run the update sshkeys when you have updated the kernel...or is that just when the ip changes? [02:00] is ltsp manager planned for edgy? [02:00] cbx33, thanks :) [02:01] cbx33, if you updated the kernel in the client chroot you need to run ltsp-update-kernels [02:01] yes I know that [02:01] (not -sshkeys) === BugMaN [n=BugMaN@nat.cabi.uniroma1.it] has joined #edubuntu [02:01] ok cool [02:01] just thinking those should be put into the cookbook [02:02] yep [02:02] in the ltsp part [02:02] guys this might now be a nice to say such stuff [02:02] but i was trying to make a hangout place #worlddomination [02:02] please come there if u want [02:03] ogra, indeed [02:03] ajayc, ergh, we are working on a release [02:03] be shhh [02:03] be shhh.... ;) [02:03] ok === UbuntuBes [n=TEDDY_WE@espeed24-10.brunet.bn] has joined #edubuntu [02:06] hi does anyone know how to download torrent files using shell command?? [02:06] not me ;) [02:06] my currently using GUI in gnome-btdownload [02:06] so why shell? [02:06] UbuntuBes, btdownload-curses, but go #ubuntu pls :) [02:07] pygi y is this # differnt ?? [02:07] pygi, dont scare him :P [02:07] UbuntuBes, because this is for edubuntu specific things...go #ubuntu [02:07] we are writing "How to cook tomato soup" book [02:07] ROFL [02:08] ajayc, be shhh :) [02:08] LOL [02:08] pygi, please come to #worlddomination [02:09] please [02:09] i want u there [02:09] :) [02:09] ajayc, shhhhh, I need to proofread book [02:09] oppss... soorry [02:09] but this # to talk about what? [02:09] don't worry about it UbuntuBes [02:09] please pygi [02:09] UbuntuBes, Edubuntu specific issue, like LTSP and such :) [02:09] UbuntuBes, edubuntu and ltsp [02:09] UbuntuBes, we talk about edubuntu [02:10] did you ever need more of a concrete answer :p [02:10] hmm.. as far i concern that ubuntu n edubuntu are the same [02:10] is it? [02:10] nearly, yes [02:10] UbuntuBes, if it's same for question like that --> #ubuntu :) [02:11] UbuntuBes, if you have a problem with gcompris, ltsp or the edubuntu installer on the CD this is the right channel [02:12] questions about stuff thats related to ubuntu in general should go to to #ubuntu :) === mhz [n=mhz@201.214.84.130] has joined #edubuntu [02:15] hi all [02:15] hey mhz [02:15] hey [02:16] JaneW: hi, r u here? [02:17] cbx33: hey, leave me at least one spam to kill :D [02:17] mhz, hehe [02:17] sorry dude [02:17] :D [02:17] it is ok [02:18] it seems to me it is the 'timezone' factor [02:19] could be [02:19] mhz: hi, yes [02:19] pygi: I have just read over 200 SoC admin mails *FUN* [02:19] pygi: Marty Connor is a NERD [02:19] JaneW: nice to see ya here. JaneW I would like to 'formally' ask the Edubuntu CD Artwork people to please show us their work. Will that get a positive response? [02:20] mhz, you've been after this for a while havn't you [02:20] who does the edubuntu CD artwork? [02:20] mhz: I don't think it is being publicised yet, but you are welcome to mail silbs and request it [02:20] ah [02:21] cbx33: hi, Jane Silber is in charge of it and she contracts it out to professional designers [02:21] ok [02:21] ogra: did you get a chance to bug silbs? (or perhaps i should ask... did she get a chance to be bugged?) [02:22] JaneW: also, I need to ask for a special shipping (about 50 CD's). Who is the one to email about it? [02:22] mhz, thats marilize [02:22] that functioanlity will be provided, via Marilize [02:22] mhxz: I don't think they are doing large pre-orders though [02:23] mhz: mail marilize in the mean time marilize@canonical.com [02:23] mhz: either way I expect large orders will be availavle in the next 2 weeks or so [02:23] JaneW: oh, but there is a policy to the CD artwork? I mean, they are not supposed to be publicised before release? (at least a JPG of it would be ok for my needs) ;) [02:23] pygi, why left? [02:23] mhz: its already on the wiki [02:23] spacey: where? [02:24] spacey: ?? really? [02:24] i've downloaded it before [02:24] hehe [02:24] hold on [02:24] heheh === mhz hugs spacey and hands in a muffin! === cbx33 grabs the muffin [02:24] lol [02:24] thief ! [02:24] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?highlight=%28DIY%29 === cbx33 places the muffin in a duplicator and makes one for everybody [02:25] see :P) [02:25] ogra: cbx33 is right. Based on the geek way of communicating, I did not specify "to whom" so, it was 'free-to-grab' muffin :D [02:25] oh, a GPL'ed muffin [02:26] ajayc, so you can ask things :) [02:27] spacey: awesome thanks, I didn't know they were released yet === ogra hopes the red looks so weird because its a pdf he's looking at [02:27] i found it a week ago [02:27] :) === mhz complains! Why hired artwork people always submits non-sources? [02:27] <-- doesn't wanna be a lurker so I'm saying "hello" to the room [02:28] mhz, you have an eps, whats wrong ? [02:28] spacey: thx for the url [02:28] JaneW, the book will be done today [02:28] we'll proofread more then [02:28] until the release [02:28] pygi: \o/ [02:28] dinda, hi :) [02:28] hi dinda [02:28] hm. any french people around? [02:28] ogra: maybe I am wrong, but there is not "much" you can do with eps. (i hope to be wrong, but 'encapsulated' is not same) [02:28] does anyone know if document viewer handles transparency in dapper? [02:29] ogratjie [02:29] pygi: COOL! [02:29] I'm from Texas - so no French here, sorry [02:29] ogra: the 'circle of friends' isn't even a circle... :/ [02:29] JaneW, that good? :P [02:30] ogra: and the edubuntu CD cover says dubuntu... [02:30] JaneW, not here [02:31] oic [02:31] the layout seems fine here, i'm just concerned that the red is way to bright, it doiesnt match the color we use everywhere else [02:31] hopefully there's something wrong here, because they look awful and looks like I could have done a better job... [02:32] link? [02:33] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?highlight=%28DIY%29 [02:34] ogra: it's the pdf viewer! [02:34] if I open in xpdf it looks WAY better === JaneW mails ogra.. [02:34] yaeh, that might be, doko made some very weird font decisions [02:34] magnong quel est ton probleme? [02:34] magnon [02:35] ogra: the image does not have a transparent background etc [02:35] blue-frog: you have any idea where the registry of french businesses is, on the web? I need an organisation number [02:35] JaneW, yup [02:35] ok now I like them much more [02:35] that threw me for ages whilst creating ES in scribus [02:35] cbx33: odd [02:36] JaneW, using breezy or dapper ? [02:36] breezy *hide* [02:36] for some reason document view in breezy at least doens't support transparent pngs [02:36] (looks fine in evince for me on dapper) === JaneW is a stable user === cbx33 hides too [02:36] hide me JaneW [02:36] cbx33: get behind me, no one will see you [02:36] JaneW, well, if you are *this* outdated then its indeed clear [02:36] magnon try to get information from a chamber of commerce [02:36] ;) [02:37] cbx33: btw that anime has been very inspiring, I have been to gym twice since and am now trying to get thighs like that... good motivation :P [02:37] LOL [02:37] magnon get into pm [02:37] heheh :p - I'll let Lisa know [02:38] you missed her popping into IRC yesterday [02:38] aaah! [02:38] JaneW: no need for GYM... that tattoo already got my heart prisioner. [02:38] heh [02:39] cbx33: maybe she could make an 'ogra' drawing :) [02:39] it's on the way mhz [02:39] at least ogra will get a 'clone' [02:39] JaneW, did you note the little "Yo" on the belt ? [02:39] (another homie) :) [02:39] hehehehe [02:40] homies rules [02:40] I think there should be an exclusive.... edubuntu homies club [02:40] lol === mhz has been listening to lots o rammstein musik [02:40] for people who have an anime likeness only :p [02:40] ogra: as long as it wasn't a 'ho' ! ;) [02:41] cbx33: homiez rulz [02:41] JaneW, LOL [02:42] back to edubuntu topics...:D When should we start our 1st Edubuntu Newsletter [02:43] brb lunch ! [02:44] mhz, yesterday ! [02:44] JaneW, that shot looks weird [02:44] ogra: which one? [02:45] ogra: hmmm, has jerome started anything (besides his email in ML last week?) [02:45] the one you just mailed :) [02:45] mhz, no idea [02:45] okis [02:45] ogra: of course! I just editted a photos, so you had me a bit worried ;P [02:45] he didnt ask for input yet [02:45] but the idea is to have one ready for release or 1 week after? [02:45] ogra: but you can see why I didn't like the cover at all! [02:46] yep :) [02:46] mhz, yesterday ! [02:47] mhz: I have a new pic up, but it is less naked [02:47] ogra: :D [02:47] JaneW: please! url!!! [02:48] http://www.flickr.com/photos/55079435@N00/156375938/ [02:48] just shows the design [02:48] JaneW: the ideal pic is not too much clothes on, not too less...imagination is sexy thing === mhz hides until blushing dissapears...can't believe he said that. [02:50] mhz: I think that's very true [02:51] JaneW: yup, but one thing is to think of it and the other is to make it off topic in a community channel oriented towards education [02:51] :D [02:51] mhz: :) [02:51] hmm, on a second thought... it was 'educational' :D [02:52] JaneW: nice tattoo, indeed, charged of symbolisim [02:53] JaneW: is that a permanent tattoo? [02:53] yes [02:54] did it hurt much? getting the tattoo applied, that is [02:55] dinda: yes it did a bit [02:55] dinda: it's qiute painful actually [02:56] I've thought of getting one but want to make sure it's on a body part that won't sag too much with age ;) [02:56] dinda: I blogged about it, so you can read a first hand account, if you like, http://janewsblog.blogspot.com/2004/05/amazing-thailand-part-8-taboos.html [02:56] dinda: ditto - hence behind the shoulder ;) [02:57] JaneW: thanks, I'll check it out [02:57]